"Classic" SvM also implemented in Blacklist!

Started by dYnAm1c, May 07, 2013, 06:18:14 PM

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YaYz0r

Quote from: VaNilla on May 13, 2013, 02:57:15 AM
It's simpler to ride a bike than operate a plane. What's more challenging to race across a large mountain, the bike or the plane? With the bike you have mountainous terrain, trees and rocks to avoid, uneven surfaces, and so on. In a plane you have to think about the fastest way to fly across the mountain, and that's fairly simple. Despite being harder to operate, the person operating the plane will find it much easier to cross the mountain than the guy on the bike.

What's my point? Just because you have to think about limited lives in CT, doesn't mean you don't think about unlimited lives in Blacklist. You have limited opportunities to hack the objective within the timelimit, and lives are the only way to facilitate your journey through the game. If you keep dying, you're going to set yourself back on the journey to victory. So using your lives effectively is still very important, and not only that, but the game is more complex in the sense that you have to think about the objectives in order to to win the match; you can't simply focus on killing the opposing team. The landscapes of CT and Blacklist look very similar from a distance, but regardless of having a simplified variable in Blacklist (lives), the game is still more complex than CT. You can make a variable more accessible (like a bike), and still have the game be more complex and rewarding overall (like awarding points).
What. The. Fuck. Your points and arguments are even more ridiculous than what you hear from the forum members who went to Ubisoft's HQ and got brainwashed. Are you really dead serious when you say that you think Blacklist is or will be more complex than CT? The developers have done everything in their power to make Blacklist as little complex as an objectives based asymmetrical multiplayer mode can possibly be (without completely stripping the game for features) in order to allow every single casual gamer to jump right into the game and have a chance of being victorious. How can you not see this?

VaNilla

#46
I can see why you think that, but my arguments are valid. The guys who've apparently been "brainwashed" are guys who've played every Splinter Cell game. Many of them hated Double Agent because of its numerous flaws. ShadowFox in particular heavily criticized Conviction, and even Blacklist when it was first shown. I'm not brainwashed, I'm just looking at the facts. The game is far more accessible, but that doesn't mean that it's less complex. It's easier to get in at an entry level, but I think high level competition will have much more to it. You haven't brought up any valid arguments, and for that reason I completely disagree. Along with my own observations, I'll trust those who've actually played the game (and explained their thoughts about it in great detail). If they were brainwashed, I would have noticed it in their posts, but I haven't.

frvge

Keep the debate nice all :) It's great fun to watch and see the various arguments.
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RaDRoacH

Quote from: frvge on May 13, 2013, 07:04:52 PM
Keep the debate nice all :) It's great fun to watch and see the various arguments.

I've bought some popcorn


Let's wait, see and try before criticize it...
The MP is still work in progress tho, i guess that there won't be big changes, but they will balance the game, and probably work on other modes.
Sorry if my english is not perfect.

Cronky

Look at all this activity!

It seems like it's simplified in pretty good ways thus far. Infinite lives does simplify things for all players involved because as Spark said, having to not worry about lives is one less thing than you had to think about in previous versions. This is good for everyone involved though as well. Newer players wont be discouraged by losing a game within a couple minutes. Older players can try other tactics. It makes Objectives the key point of the objective based mode.

This begs the question on if there will be a Deathmatch mode for either classic or blacklist mode.

I also have to wonder if Killstreaks actually have some sort of bonus or if they are simply a point/medal kind of system. Kind of like Halo's various medals that don't give you any sort of ability at any point, but to coincide with your score in the end. This would be in contrast to CoD, which I haven't really played, but gives you an advantage ability if you get your killstreak high enough.
If you haven't noticed, I'm REALLY good at making a simple response into a wall of text.
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VaNilla

There's no abilities with the killstreaks. They allow you to unlock new gear in blacklist mode (4v4) as well as SP and Coop. Classic has everything open from the start, so it's an even playing field.

YaYz0r

Quote from: VaNilla on May 13, 2013, 05:20:40 PM
I can see why you think that, but my arguments are valid. The guys who've apparently been "brainwashed" are guys who've played every Splinter Cell game. Many of them hated Double Agent because of its numerous flaws. ShadowFox in particular heavily criticized Conviction, and even Blacklist when it was first shown. I'm not brainwashed, I'm just looking at the facts. The game is far more accessible, but that doesn't mean that it's less complex. It's easier to get in at an entry level, but I think high level competition will have much more to it. You haven't brought up any valid arguments, and for that reason I completely disagree. Along with my own observations, I'll trust those who've actually played the game (and explained their thoughts about it in great detail). If they were brainwashed, I would have noticed it in their posts, but I haven't.
The thing is that I'm really struggling to get my head around your logic. You say that Blacklist's SvM (I assume we are speaking about the "Classic" mode) is more complex than CT's. Your main reason for believing so is that you can't win a game by killing a certain number of mercenaries in Blacklist whereas you theoretically can in CT. Am I right? To explain yourself you use a bike and plane metaphor that is not really relevant. Yes, some things are more complicated and complex than they seem to be on the surface but so what? I could use the exact same metaphor for DA's SvM. The mercs are equipped with a proximity detector that detects spies that are nearby, even spies that are hidden and does not move. The PD replaces the sound detector from CT. So at first sight you might think that mercs will have a much easier time tracking down spies and killing them but that's not the case. Spies are faster, the maps are bigger, hacking is done remotely, and there are so many more or less safe paths for the spies to take between the objectives. Suddenly, eliminating spies isn't as easy as one would think. But hey, that doesn't make the whole game very complex at all and fun for that matter. The point is that you need to look at more than one aspect of a game before you conclude that it's more complex than another game. In DA's case I don't think I'll have to point out why the SvM there was a dumbed down and way less complex version of CT's SvM without enough depth. As for Blacklist, I'm confident that the SvM installment in that game will have the same problems as the one in DA. There are fewer gadgets, a lot more automatic actions like pressing a single button and killing a merc with a DFA move, and infinitive lives which I think removes complexity in the sense that spies and mercs no longer have to alter their style of playing to the amount of lives they and their opponents have left. As far as I can see, there are no where near enough complexity-adding factors in the game to make up for the complexity-decreasing ones.

In the end I'll probably buy the game and see for myself how it plays. I might enjoy it for a while and find it fun for what it is just like I did with DA. On its own, DA's multiplayer was all right and entertaining. But when you compare it to CT's it will always be a disappointment. I think the same is going to be the case with Blacklist's SvM. For quite a bit of time I actually thought that DA's SvM was better than CT's (shame on me) but that changed when I realised how there was such a great lack of depth compared to CT. If I had been invited to play DA's SvM for a few hours before the game was released I would have been as excited about the game as Shadowfox and the other forum members are about Blacklist. Playing a game for three or four hours is simply not enough to realise the lack of depth in a game. How about I try to use a metaphor too. Blacklist is nothing but a dessert. When Ubisoft invited a couple of forum members over to their place they served them a little peace of their special new dessert, Blacklist. It made the forum members happy and they instantly wanted more. They wanted to eat nothing but this dessert and couldn't wait until they were able to do so! These forum members didn't realise that having the dessert all the time wouldn't satisfy them in the long run. They would quickly feel hungry again after eating it and soon become tired having the same dessert over and over again. CT was nothing like this. CT was like an awesome, out of this world three course dinner, however, you had to cook all the fucking food yourself. You were given all the ingredients and an infinitive source of them by Ubisoft but the kitchen they provided you with was full of broken equipment and the recipe you were given wasn't very useful. On top of that, the ingredients were of variable quality though generally a good one. Now you essentially had to try again, again, and again but eventually, if you kept on trying, you'd have the most hearty meal you'd ever had. A super rewarding experience. The fantastic taste of the high quality ingredients mixed together almost allowed you to forget about the taste of the ingredients that were not of such a quality and the meal would keep you satisfied for an incredible amount of time. Unfortunately, most people would give up even before they got to the starter due to the lack of working equipment and the inadequate recipe. If only Ubisoft had decided to fix the equipment, get rid of the bad ingredients and perhaps add a few fresh new ones and last but not least provide a proper recipe, we would have the most amazing multiplayer ever that people wouldn't give up on before mastering it.

Okay, perhaps I got a little lost in my own amazing metaphor, I don't know, but I hope the point was somewhat clear. Anyway, I actually think that the thing that annoys me the most about the Splinter Cell series, both SP and MP wise, is how it's going from being stealth games with action elements to action games with stealth elements.

Cronky

You think they're going to make the rounds customize-able? Replace infinite lives with a finite amount? Pretty sure the opposite of that could be done on PT/CT/DA.
If you haven't noticed, I'm REALLY good at making a simple response into a wall of text.
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VaNilla

#53
It was the same back when CT was first revealed, people would say that you can't judge it right off the bat. You can't form a whole opinion based off one day's worth of playing and trailers, but you can certainly get a fairly good impression of what the game is like. For me, the game is above and beyond my expectations. I didn't expect them to keep so much intact from PT/CT, I'm actually quite shocked, but I'm also really glad that they've made the game more accessible. You've got to admit that CT is not an accessible game to newcomers, not once people mastered the game. Hopefully with Blacklist, the game will make newbies feel more welcome, along with proper matchmaking so the teams are evenly balanced. By being accessible, it actually gives people the chance to get good at the game without becoming demotivated, and play against people on their level before going up against the top tier of gamers.

Conviction is a "stealth" game, but the game only really encouraged you to use stealth as a tool to kill (the "panther" style as Max put it), it isn't built to accommodate other play styles. Although it was possible to ghost the game to an extent, you really had to search for the oppurtunity to do it, so it wasn't a very rewarding experience. I don't get that feeling from Blacklist. Rather than telling you to use stealth to execute enemies, it lets you choose what to do. You can play the game as a ghost, go to the opposite end of the spectrum as an Assault player, or use stealth to clear out each room as a Panther, and you will still have a rewarding experience. The game is designed to facilitate the ghost who doesn't want to touch anyone, kill anyone, use any gadgets or get detected. In fact, some of the missions require that you pass through totally undetected and remain non-lethal. In one mission you have to extract Kobin from a location, and unlike Conviction's scripted moments, you have the option to avoid a firefight. You can still extract him guns blazing, but you can also sneak through the back door in a completely different section.

It's actually a lot like Chaos Theory; you could shoot mostly everyone in the game, knife everyone, knock them out, or sneak by entirely, and it's no different in Blacklist. Regardless of how you choose to play, you're being rewarded for it, rather than being shoe horned into one style of play. Max used the analogy that in one mission from Double Agent, he chose to play in quick lethal fashion. Although the game gave him that option, when he got to the end of the mission he had a "-150 stealth rating" or something along those lines (I'm paraphrasing). That kind of system isn't rewarding, it's not fun and it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. That's why you're rewarded differently depending on your style. If you haven't seen the Abandoned Mill walkthrough, check it out, because it really shows this off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9SvRX-8pZ4

Cronky

I'm enjoying that I'm not the only one that makes really long posts.
If you haven't noticed, I'm REALLY good at making a simple response into a wall of text.
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Farley4Fan

That makes 1.
:P

I feel like deathmatch would be awful.  There would be like .5 seconds of "combat".  Spies only have to push the "kill" button from seemingly any angle, and that's the jist of combat for a spy.  Mercs have to put a couple rounds in a spy or use their kill button.  It would probably consist of spies hiding around corners trying to time their auto kill.  If they fail, they die.  Rinse/repeat.

Aj

There's one thing that will greatly help the perception of Blacklist IMO: a multiplayer demo/beta with both modes available. (BL/Classic)

SheikTheGeek

Quote from: Aj on May 15, 2013, 05:53:09 AM
There's one thing that will greatly help the perception of Blacklist IMO: a multiplayer demo/beta with both modes available. (BL/Classic)

From what I remember, there was a MP beta for DA, but only story for Conviction.  Not sure what they will do for Blacklist.  I hope there's a demo at all.
I actually enjoyed the multiplayer in Double Agent and Blacklist.  Why are you looking at me like that?

YaYz0r

Quote from: VaNilla on May 14, 2013, 07:07:58 AM
It was the same back when CT was first revealed, people would say that you can't judge it right off the bat. You can't form a whole opinion based off one day's worth of playing and trailers, but you can certainly get a fairly good impression of what the game is like. For me, the game is above and beyond my expectations. I didn't expect them to keep so much intact from PT/CT, I'm actually quite shocked, but I'm also really glad that they've made the game more accessible. You've got to admit that CT is not an accessible game to newcomers, not once people mastered the game. Hopefully with Blacklist, the game will make newbies feel more welcome, along with proper matchmaking so the teams are evenly balanced. By being accessible, it actually gives people the chance to get good at the game without becoming demotivated, and play against people on their level before going up against the top tier of gamers.

Conviction is a "stealth" game, but the game only really encouraged you to use stealth as a tool to kill (the "panther" style as Max put it), it isn't built to accommodate other play styles. Although it was possible to ghost the game to an extent, you really had to search for the oppurtunity to do it, so it wasn't a very rewarding experience. I don't get that feeling from Blacklist. Rather than telling you to use stealth to execute enemies, it lets you choose what to do. You can play the game as a ghost, go to the opposite end of the spectrum as an Assault player, or use stealth to clear out each room as a Panther, and you will still have a rewarding experience. The game is designed to facilitate the ghost who doesn't want to touch anyone, kill anyone, use any gadgets or get detected. In fact, some of the missions require that you pass through totally undetected and remain non-lethal. In one mission you have to extract Kobin from a location, and unlike Conviction's scripted moments, you have the option to avoid a firefight. You can still extract him guns blazing, but you can also sneak through the back door in a completely different section.

It's actually a lot like Chaos Theory; you could shoot mostly everyone in the game, knife everyone, knock them out, or sneak by entirely, and it's no different in Blacklist. Regardless of how you choose to play, you're being rewarded for it, rather than being shoe horned into one style of play. Max used the analogy that in one mission from Double Agent, he chose to play in quick lethal fashion. Although the game gave him that option, when he got to the end of the mission he had a "-150 stealth rating" or something along those lines (I'm paraphrasing). That kind of system isn't rewarding, it's not fun and it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. That's why you're rewarded differently depending on your style. If you haven't seen the Abandoned Mill walkthrough, check it out, because it really shows this off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9SvRX-8pZ4
I don't see you responding to the whole Blacklist SvM being complex than CT SvM thing. The inaccessibility of CT was a screw up by Ubisoft and they could easily have made a successor to the game without this problem. There were so many things in the game that didn't necessarily make sense that you just had to figure out yourself like the sound for example, there were way too many bugs, a bad netcode, and there were serious balancing issues. All of this added heavily to an already steep, but not too steep, learning curve. Ubisoft could easily have worked this out but instead they gave us DA's SvM and now Blacklist's where it feels like every single aspect of the game has been simplified and made easier. Yes, you can't just judge a game from a few trailers but I haven't seen or heard anything that would make me think that this game is going to be fun for very long. The game is simply not challenging enough to keep people interested in the game for very long. In CT you spent a lot of time mastering your rifle and its sniping capabilities as a merc but in Blacklist killing is just as easy as in COD - you just hold down the fire button and your opponent will be dead in a second. As a spy it took lots of time mastering the sticky camera as well as the best tactics to successfully neutralize or grab a merc but in Blacklist you just press a single button and your spy performs a move that kills the merc instantly. I could go on and on with this comparison. Whenever the forum members who played the game are confronted with valid criticism comparing CT and Blacklist they simply go down the old "CT belongs to the past, you can't keep on making the same game over and over, blah blah blah" bs road. They don't really seem to respond to it.

I'm not really interesting in discussing the SP as Ubisoft has turned Sam Fisher into a joke, however, I'd like to say that I can't see why Max is complaining (other than the fact that he's a total moron). He decided to finish the mission the quickest, easiest but also worst way leaving a lot of traces. The game gave him the decision to cut corners or not and he decided to do so and still expected to be rewarded as if he hadn't. The fuck kind of logic is this? And I know you were able to go through the missions in the old Splinter Cell games killing a lot of people if you wanted to but it seem like the new ones almost encourages you to do so with all the action features they're putting in the game.

Farley4Fan

This auto kill thing reminds me of Assassin's Creed multi.  From wherever you are (in front, behind, the side, above, below, where fuckin ever) you literally push 1 button 1 time and it's an auto kill.  It basically is a glorified chess game.  The skill involved comes only from positioning yourself effectively for an insta kill.  No aiming, no give and take combat, just instant death for one party or the other (depending on who pushed it first).

Needless to say I can't stand it.  It looks like there is some inspiration taken from there, and that's probably what has me most worried personally. 

I second the beta thing.  I really doubt I will buy it without trying it first.