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So, um Frvge? What do you think?

But EMF can be bypassed by another method as well: By not using gadgets + not standing in front of electronic devices and the other way around, by using gadgets + standing in front of electronic devices, which is a lot easier than sneaking/not moving.

Now that I think about it, chaff should have the same negative effect for the spy when being in the front or inside a chaff field and not having electric devices on.

That is a good point, i agree with part of it. So if this is the situation (where hyphens represent the merc's line of sight and the names of each character or thing represents its position along the same axis)

MERC -------- SPY --------   Chaff Field

In this situation, if the spy comes before the chaff cloud in the merc's line of sight and the spy has no gadgets on, then he would pop out as a silhouette under merc EMF vision!

However if the situation is that the spy is inside the chaff cloud, I believe that it would still be correct for EMF to detect a bright opaque cloud regardless of whether the spy has gadgets on or off.

The thing is that to EMF this Chaff cloud is like how smoke is to plain eye sight. EMF cannot see through this chaff cloud so even if spy had gadgets off inside the cloud, since EMF cannot see through it, then a spy inside of it with gadgets off would not be detected as a silhouette. Unless a limb were sticking out then that part of the limb would appear as a silhouette.


Very good point! This would all be determined by how opaque the chaff cloud would be to EMF I would say that it should be 100% opaque as smoke is to plain eye sight.


Wikipedia also explains that this was the point of chaff all along anyway (to jam visibility of a target in an enemy radar by overwhelming it with multiple returns).

Now that I think about it, perhaps chaff could have a negative effect on Motion tracker (but not as strong as it would against EMF) if the aluminum particles are large enough and move fast enough to meet the motion tracker's detection threshold then it would overwhelm the motion tracker as well. The gas/airborne solid particles of a smoke grenade are too small however. If smoke affected motion tracker then it would be useless because we are surrounded by gas and dust in our atmosphere, so if the movement of gaseous particles and airborne dust particles were enough to set off the motion tracker, then motion tracker would not work at all to spot larger moving targets like spies because it would always be overwhelmed by smaller particles.

Interesting idea, but what do you mean with motion tracker being able to see through smoke? It shouldn't be able to, IMO. In SCCT motion detector does detect even through smoke, but I think that should not happen. Both visions already give immunity to flashbangs. With your idea EMF would be able to ignore flashbangs and smoke, while motion vision ignores all of the granades from the spy (aside from merc standing inside the chaff field). I think this would cause too much of an imbalance.

The way for spy to bypass motion tracker is to move slowly or to not move at all (no grenade is needed!)
Another way for the spy to disable motion tracker (and all other visions) would be to shoot/throw the chaff at the merc. If the merc is standing inside the chaff cloud then he cant use any visions. Also, the merc's helmet can be tazed and this disables his HUD and visions.

We must first understand how "motion tracker" works in order to create a grenade that can counter it. It is not really necessary to create a throwable granade to counter motion tracker. I was just  adding this functionality to the chaff since to me it makes a lot of sense and the chaff already existed in the game.

If you really want a grenade that disables motion tracker then, we would need to create a something like a "Rubber pellet grenade", this grenade will explode and shoot out lots of rubber pellets which will cause the merc's motion tracker to overload thus rendering it useless.

But that is not the point of this thread so i don't know. I just know that smoke shouldn't really have an effect on motion tracker because smoke isn't really something that could interfere with the motion tracker's functionality.

But the ultimate goal of this game is for  spies to sneak so keeping motion tracker the  way it is will help maintain the stealthiness of the game in some cases.

I had posted this idea a very long time ago, and I still think it is very good so I am reposting since i don't remember how it was received by the devs.

So my idea was that chaff particles should not only temporarily disable gadgets, but also serve as a "smoke screen" when a merc is trying to view a spy through EMF vision.

This would not affect motion tracker vision.

I am specifically referring to a situation where there is a chaff cloud located between a merc and a spy and the merc is not standing in the chaff cloud. The spy can be either inside the chaff cloud or anywhere behind it as long as the chaff cloud is blocking the merc's direct line of sight towards the spy.
In this situation a merc would not be able to use EMF to see the spy because the EMF vision will simply detect a bright opaque cloud of thousands of chaff particles.

If the spy did not throw smoke as well, then the merc can switch off his EMF and see the spy with plain eye sight. If the spy did throw smoke then plain eyesight/flashlight wont work and merc will need to switch to motion tracker in order to see the spy moving inside or behind the smoke+emf clouds.

They can make it so that vision/HUD blur only occurs if it is a headshot with the rubber bullet.
And merc can use berserk to kill a jumping spy.

Nevermind, aggro would be too easy.

They can make it so that vision/HUD blur only occurs if it is a headshot with the rubber bullet.
And merc can use berserk to kill a jumping spy.

I think it would be cool give spy the option between a tazer gun or a rubber bullet gun.

This would allow alternative strategies for the spy teams and different equipment combinations.


The rubber bullet gun (inspired by ring airfoil round) could be different from the tazer gun in that instead of paralyzing the enemy completely (enemy cannot shoot and cannot be attacked), it instead slows down merc turning speed, removes ability to charge and causes blurry vision/screws up HUD (just a little bit). This would be very brief of course. The merc can still shoot and berserk, but the effect of the rubber bullet lasts a bit longer than the berserk animation so merc must time the berserk well if he wants to avoid being grabbed.

The rubber bullet gun would not be effective against sniping mercs however and is not an effective way to stop a merc from quick-scoping a spy.
Perhaps this would be interesting as in some maps it may be better to equip rubber bullets and in others it may be better to equip the tazer gun, and there could be teams where one spy uses the tazer and the other spy uses the rubber bullet gun.

In a case such as that, the rubber bullet and the taze effect would not combine. Which ever is fired at the merc first is the effect that the merc wil experience.
And the recovery time for the merc after a being shot would still be the same so that he cannot be shot by two different spy guns consecutively in less than 2 seconds or whatever the delay is.

They would need to be destroyable by the spies in my opinion. Or there must be a way for spies to bypass them.

Fixed camnet in SCCT was already powerful enough. Creating a camnet that can be placed anywhere will be too powerful.

This is an idea that sounds good but its implementation will cause too many complications.
In short, the game would need to be redesigned.

1- Stationary hacking would have to safer for the spy (not as snipe-able as in SCCT):
**This pretty much means that every map would have to be remade.

2- The "minigame" would need to be very very well made or else new issues will arise. For example:

**What will determine the length of the minigame? If it is not randomized enough, or difficult enough then experienced players will hack very very fast and inexperienced players will never even get to begin!

**Would there be penalty for making "mistakes"? (aka jamming every button until the hack is complete). If so, would implementation of such a penalty be worth it in an already quite difficult game? (I think not).

**If minigame length is not affected by player experience due to implemented delays that make it last the same amount of time for everybody who has memorized or made macros of the hacking pattern(s), then again, the minigame will be nothing but a superfluous barrier to noobs and non-macro users.

I didnt like the idea too much, because even in single fire mode its going to be too easy to track spies. I think this idea would be better if the tracker bullets were part of a tracker dart gun, or a rifle under-barrell attachment which is fired separately.

I dont like the idea that every time a merc shoots to kill a spy, he will be able to track the spy. I only like this idea if the merc has to fire this "tracked bullet" on purpose in order to track spy.

So either the merc has to take out a "tracker bullet" firing pistol and then hit the spy. or the merc needs to fire the tracker bullet with a separate trigger that is not the same trigger as the lethal bullets. (kind of how frags are fired from a gun attachment).

This gap can be due to lack of knowledge about vent passages, coop move points, lack of microphone or lack of partner with microphone. Lack of awareness of exploits (I cannot stress this enough). Lack of macro use.

I would argue that most if not all of the "pro players" are just a bunch of exploit abusers (but of course nobody would admit it so don't even ask...).

So in short, a way to reduce this "gap" would be to put a training level in the PS game that teaches ADVANCED techniques.
The SCCT training levels  only ''taught" how to move, how to draw and fire your gun, and how to hack. Everything else is pretty much left for the user to learn by testing things out in-game or by playing the hell out of the game.

I think one of the reasons this game is so "hard core" is because it takes quite some dedication to be good at it (because of lack of proper training etc), yet this is also the reason why there is such a small community with such high skill-level disparities.

The community has a closed and secretive mentality which is not welcoming to noobs.

A way to fix this in PS would be to therefore remove all ridiculous exploits aka "advanced techniques", and to train noobs properly. It would also help a lot to design a control scheme that makes it possible for all players to play fluently so that players using macros don't have an unfair advantage over players not using macros.

I know macro users will hate me for saying that, but it is the truth.

Frvge, I know you probably don't want to do it, but I highly recommend that you play SC Blacklist SvM. For the good of PS. I am sure the dev team can learn a lot from SCBL. Even though the game's execution was a failure, some of the concepts and new interpretations of SvM were not so bad, and they will give rise to new creative ideas.

These were just some of the things that I noticed and liked but everybody has different taste so I would encourage the dev team to actually try SCBL out.

Some of the few things I did like about the SCBL's new take on SvM:
1-   Spies can draw their gun in more positions:
a.   While hanging from a ledge the gun can be drawn.
b.   While taking cover, a spy can draw the gun and fire anywhere around him. In SCCT, the ability to aim the gun while taking cover is so restricted and impractical that nobody ever uses this function.
2-   Spies can peek downwards from an upper floor in order to look and fire their weapon without having jump onto the railing.
3-   Spies can throw grenades while on the move without needing to draw their gun.
4-   All grenades can be "quick-used" at all times. In other words, all grenades can be thrown at feet or out (not at feet) by the spy at any given moment without having to restrict the "Throw at feet" function to only two of out of more-than-two grenades.
Note: To me, the drawback about throwing everything by hand was the increased parabolic curvature. This greatly affected the accuracy and range of thrown objects.
Something I think would be very cool would be to allow spies to throw grenades while on the move (both out and at feet), as in SCBL, but to also give the option to draw the gun and use in order to fire the same gadgets at longer range with significantly increased accuracy.
I think this would make awesome spies.
Something that I think spies should be able to do is to cancel slow animations in order to return to their original position. Neither SCCT nor SCBL allow this. For example if a spy decides to move around a corner while hanging from a ledge or to climb up a ledge and then a merc suddenly comes, the spy should be able to drop to the ground or to begin new animation to return to the original position.
Committing to a 3-5 second animation could make the difference between life and death.
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Some things I liked about SCBL mercs:
1-   Ability to place mines on the ground.
2-   Ability to look away from flash bangs for reduced effect, but then again, this is may be why UBI put forced negative mouse acceleration in the game's controls, which is a complete nightmare. And doing this may allow very experienced players to pretty much become immune to flash bangs which would be very bad. So this is very controversial if not implemented correctly. This is not really important anyway. It all comes down to the duration of the flashbang effect. In SCBL it was quite long, so the implementation of this feature made more sense.

(I removed this post because I will instead make a new thread about it)

I'm not trolling you. I am just challenging your claims. If you can't back up your claims then you shouldn't be in a discussion forum in the first place.


Anyway, lets put that aside.


So yes, I do agree that it is harder to win as spy that it is to win as merc, even as an experienced player playing against another team of experienced players. But to me it is only a natural part of the game.

Look at SCBL for example, it is a completely different take on SvM (both Classic and Blacklist modes are way different from SCCT SvM) and in both cases I would argue that it is more difficult to win as spy than as merc.

This shows that it is natural for spy to be harder to master, there is an inherently steeper learning curve on spy because of the fact that one is supposed to be hiding/sneaking or being in very vulnerable positions such as hanging from walls where one can become an easy target if not careful enough.

Even in blacklist mode, Ubisoft literally moved spies towards the median-gamer's expectations of a generic first person shooter in order to appeal more people. Blacklist mode is still full of UBERNoobs and owning spies is extremely easy as merc for other reasons such as shitty spawns, adrenaline and other factors.

Not to mention, ubisoft actually went with giving everyone infinite lives and turned the game into more of a wild goose chase than a game of tactical stealth, infiltration and objective neutrilization.
It just motivates spies to play like idiots and not like spies.

Gadget restriction and increase in lives is not a solution to the problem, and it has been proven by the failure of Blacklist SvM. (Of course the failure of Blacklist is also attributable to like 1000 other reasons, but lets not get into that).

In your game mode you are kind of doing the exact same horrendous mistake that ubisoft made with Blacklist.

You are dumbing down the game, and it will not help anyone, and it will not improve anything and it will not fix newbness.




Welcome to the forum by the way. You are now sorrounded by hard core PC SCCT SvM fans, so although your contributions and opinions are welcome don't feel offended if nobody agrees with you.

PC Master Race FTW...