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I think a large part of the learning curve and confusion comes from the fact that the way sound behaves in CT is ill defined. A large part of that comes from the shitty sound engine -- some surfaces can be heard across the map while others can't, and the same surface is heard differently in different maps. Another part of that, though, is that the actions which set off the reticle are never defined in the game manual, and not all the actions are intuitive (taking out the gun with the laser on vs. laser off, for example). That is mostly why I decided to write the noob guide back in the beta days. And yet another problem is that it's an all-or-nothing system -- you either crawl along at a snail's pace and don't set off the reticle, or move quickly and you do. There is no medium, and when the clock is on the merc's side, going that slow all the time so that the merc's can't hear your footsteps in a vent can be a huge detriment.

After looking back at this thread and changing my opinion about the presence detector, this post pretty much sums up my thoughts about CT's sound engine (although not about alarm snares. I still think a modified version of the decoy from DA would be more balanced). The sound detector shouldn't go crazy as soon as a spy moves at anything but a snail's pace. I would actually love to see the sound meter from the Chaos Theory's single player campaign. Imagine if it functioned just like it did in the original game.

As the player moves through the map, the threshold of the sound metre would dynamically change in real time depending on the ambient sound within the area, and/or the range of the sound detector. Anything from gunshots to weather effects and even missle strikes would dynamically change the threshold of the sound metre; this would be represented with a line on the sound meter. Like this.



Spies and Mercenaries would both have the same sound metre on their HUD except for one major difference. While the Spies would use the meter to stay silent, the mercs use the meter to monitor the sound produced by Spies. The sound meter would be used to find reckless spies, while the sound reticule displays where the sound is coming from with arrows (just like CT's multiplayer).

Imagine playing Warehouse from Pandora Tommorow during a winter storm. The rain is splashing against the ground, and the atmosphere is cold and grey, set around 4pm. You can both see and hear the rain in full view outside the warehouse at the spies spawn. This sets the sound metre wild, easily placing the threshold half way up the sound meter. Inside the warehouse the air feels different. The natural light is just as dull as it was outside, but darker under cover of the Warehouse's aging roof. The light parses through tiny white windows on the left side of the Warehouse, and is offset by bright harsh lights throughout the Warehouse. The shadows stick out like sore thumbs, providing ample opportunity for stealthy players to sneak by undetected. The lights inside the first sector flicker into motion as the first player enters the room, be it Spies or Mercenaries. Not only is this very creepy, but also gives either team a quick opportunity to get into position through the cover of darkness. At random intervals lightning strikes; the light flashes through the windows, lighting up the whole sector for a split second. The main lights shut down as the lightning strikes, but quickly flicker back to life 3 seconds later. Imagine sneaking in front of a Mercenary and lining up the perfect takedown, only to be spotted as the Mercenary you've just scared shitless shoots you down! However, despite momentarily losing the cover of shadows, one big advantage for the spies is that these lightning strikes are very loud indeed. The sound threshold flys off the charts, allowing spies the chance to quickly run straight through the map without being heard by the Mercenaries, if only for 1 second as the lightning rumbles away. This is the type of gameplay that could be possible only with the inclusion of a sound meter! I hope this helped you understand my vision for the game.

I think the sound meter would greatly improve the game, as well as significantly balancing the overpowered sound reticule from Chaos Theory. It would also greatly diversify the gameplay, as you wouldn't necessarily have to crawl around the map to remain undetected. Thoughts?

Solid idea, I really like it.  It takes the current sound retical in CT but enhances it through the use of the sound meter and its relation to the map's dynamic sound feedback.  This is what CT should have had but EAX cancelled this out for all intents and purposes since spy movement could still be interpreted by the player.  I actually think this idea is present in CT already to some degree (when players are near large fans, for example) but I could be wrong.  Either way, it's a nice idea that enhances the game.

A few points real quick.

1.  For all the little steps forward DA made by improving spy traversal and netcode, it took huge leaps backward with the PD and overall play-style of the game.  This is generally speaking why "DA sucks" because minor patches won't fix a broken game.  At its heart it was a different game that had cut the skill level in half and leaving experienced PT/CT players angry and unsatisfied.  It's like taking chess and replacing it with checkers: both games have merit but the former requires vastly more strategy, skill, and knowledge than the latter.

2.  Spekkio echos my thoughts on the presence of in-game sound. 

3.  The sound detector is a solid idea and is a far better alternative than to a generic presence detector that completely kills the whole idea of stealth.  That being said, sure, it doesn't need to be replica of CT but I felt it worked very well overall.  EAX needs to be dealt with that's for sure.

4.  I say no to unlimited ammo with the merc's gun.  Mercs already had ammo boxes located on the map and they essentially gave the merc unlimited ammo.  The inclusion of limited ammo capacity for a merc makes it more skillful.  If that's not the objective of the game then go for the unlimited ammo scenario.

5.  Sniping could be changed, I agree it's a bit odd but no less deadly. 

I like it  :)

Jumping should stay with the following:

-Slightly higher (like 1/2 sec) cooldown after a jump.
-Missed berserks don't let you jump for the duration of the berserk cooldown.
-Missed bullcharges do not let you jump for the duration of the bullcharge cooldown.
-Fix the funny punch bug.

If you do those things, then mercs won't be able to jump themselves out of the situations they shouldn't -- like bullcharging into a wall or being immune after missing a berserk entirely.

Holy cow!  A Spekkio has been sighted!

I endorse the above points, spot on.

Pusianka, to be honest I think having the sith in the game would be completely overpowered.  I'm not afraid I just think it's a step in the wrong direction. They don't even care about objectives, they only care about power, further complicating the SvM dynamic. 

Hmmm Farley I like your map.  The fenced area looks like it can be really fun but will get hairy at times.  Perhaps if you trimmed it down a bit it wouldn't be as rough for first timers. 

Two years (vegas ass) and he still has more posts than I.

+1 Karma!  I applaud you, sir.  There, now it's even!  But hey, don't let that 3 karma get to your head.  I remember the days when I had 2 karma...wink wink nudge nudge

WELL WHATEVER I WAS SO LONELY IT FELT LIKE TWO YEARS

VEGA!!!

<3 <3 <3

Btw, Project Stealth is still looking great!  You guys are doing an awesome job, very proud of you little nublets.  You make your mother so happy  :'( sniff I'm just so proud sniff  :'(

ne.  Just make it so it can't be gay.

That's some very constructive criticism here...

"Being gay" = jumping out of a grab or an attempt to grab.  I like merc jumping because it allowed the merc to interact with the level in unforeseen and usually surprising means.  It was fun shit.

I don't think there's much point in a Vega sucks option when nobody's seen Vega in like two years.

Shit, half you guys probably don't even know who he is.

Two years my ass.  For the other remark, Brain Golem (noop) is right.  Fuckin change your name back to Noob-Ni or at the very least Noop-Ni.  Or better yet, Spark Mandriller.

Merc jumping is fine.  Just make it so it can't be gay. 

Looks freakin beautiful.

But that'd mean it's just a move for 1 Spy that's probably slower than diving through them?

Technically it's an animation for one spy but can be taken advantage of by the other.  It's slower than diving through the lasers of course, the advantage is that it's useful when a door way with lasers is also under surveillance by a camera, giving double the security measures.  Assuming the camera isn't directly on the door, then the spy could get through it silently and without setting off anything.  I need to paint this so it makes sense, it's hard to explain without elaborating examples (which I can do later just not at this time).

IMO the knock out system was fine and served a purpose in CT.  It was just as useful and worked just about the same way as gas camming.  From what I remember it was about 10 seconds of actual knockout time with another second or two of them reviving and blurred vision.  You could even hold them for a bit (adding even more time the merc was disabled) while your teammate advanced, took out defense, diffused or took out the other merc.  That time holding the merc and doing your thing, was better then just snapping his neck for some situations.  Giving the spies some tactical advantage, knowing exactly where the merc was going to wake up, no extra equipment, confusion and another chance to setup vs him (cam, decoy, neck or whatever).

Some other situations would include walking a merc over to placed mine, knocking him out and killing him with it as you run off or the baiting of the other merc to nade his knocked out teammate.  Even though the end result is the same as a neck break leaving the merc dead, it still is just fun to kill someone with variety.  On top of that it is just funny to see a merc die to an explosion.  Breaking neck after neck after neck gets stale after a while, need some creativity and planning.

Sure there weren't too many maps or places where you could use it well but it still worked if you knew what you were doing.  Like on mall for instance, if you grab a merc on the 1st floor, knock him out giving you an opening to run  to the 2nd floor past the security and dealing with only one merc.  If you had broken the other mercs neck, by the time you have made it to their spawn you would be dealing with 2 mercs.  Same goes for ohphanage and station and a few others I just can't think of right now.

With all that said, adding time to the knockout just doesn't sound right to me.  You will always have those people just snapping necks no matter what you do to the knockout system.  That's because you will always have players with the mentality of 'HHAHA YOU PWNED! DMDMDM".  If time is added to the knock out making it equal to a neck break, what would be the point of snapping a neck unless you wanted the satisfaction of hearing the 'crack'?  As for myself, I would just knock them out all the time to dry out their nades and defense supply making for an easy win.

Adding 'Someone has gone unconscious' text would be nice though.

QFE.  Nice.

2 (Vega):
(btw, lasers come generally from 1 side in games)

For the coop laser disable move, which is far more practical than the coop camera disable, I envisioned it differently than how I drew it.  I'll have to draw it again but it's hard with my limited paint skills.  I know what you're referring to about the lasers coming from one side and the way it would work is this:  Spy 1 is next to the lasers' origin and disables them by holding some reflective material against two of the lasers, allowing Spy 2 to crouch-walk through the opening; when Spy 2 finishes crouch-walking through the opening then Spy 1, while still disabling the lasers, shifts his body through the opening and on the other side of the lasers thus getting through the lasers surreptitiously and without notifying anyone of the maneuver. 

Without seeing a drawing of this it will sound silly and impractical, but it would be a quick, easy, and completely practical idea for a team of spies that want to move around the map without notifying the mercenaries of their whereabouts.  Technically, it doesn't have to be a "coop move," as it would only require new animation for the spy whom is disabling the lasers while the other simply crouch-walks through.

[EDIT]

Also if a merc uses beserk he shouldn't be able to be grabbed for 3 secs... because that move is useless if a spy (has no laags and) is fast and grabs the merc after the spin.
Mercs should ALWAYS have the better cards in fights... thats the whole point of "heavy armored mercs" against "fast, agile spies".
If the merc cannot use 1 of his best moves in a fight, just because of some risk, then that move is worthless, or only good against noobs.

I'm just wondering if people will be able to use the Jump Bug or not ^_^

Wasn't there a thread about "Jumpbug" already?

EDIT: found it:
http://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/index.php?topic=2688.0

No way Meister, Berserk should have that consequence, if it can knock you in the air, it should be allowed to get you grabbed easily.

QFE.  The whole point is that a merc can't span berserk with impunity.

I personally think the most important moves and abilities are already in the game. Giving more moves to either the spy or merc will only make things complicated and situational. Realistically, how many times will you find time to disable a camera by coop? The idea is great but for a fast paced game as SvM it just won't make that much a difference. On the other hand, there will be some moves that could really be a great addition but those will probably be found out once we get to play.

QFE.  I guess the reason why Frvge and co. are looking for ideas is to freshen up the game and to visually differentiate it from Chaos Theory.  The Merc's charge and 360 spin are both vital and cover a lot of possibilities, so it's hard to come up with different moves that aren't already covered. 

Zed, the last move I posted was a one-button sequence.  No button combination would be necessary for it to work, the entire animation would happen once the special event criteria was met and after the player had hit the grab button.  That being said I definitely agree that it's reminiscent of spy vs spy.

Your last idea seems familiar, oh wait.

I didn't even read the replies before I posted that but yeah I see we have similar ideas.  After reading I had a vision and felt yours would be best represented as this...





Totally tactical.  The merc is incapacitated.  The spy has a disable move.  AND it double serves as a humiliation move!