i am an atheist

[Farley4Fan]

To Papa Skull.

Previously said by you.


''He was trying to make me out to be an idiot, or someone who rejects scientific evidence.  Quite the contrary.  I can tell that THE God is not the God that Muslims or what have you will make you believe.  Our God is not the -get on your knees and praise me 10x per day and kill yourself in my name- kind of god.  I believe that's foolish and was just a man-made chunk of crap.  Our God is beyond genius, forgiving, and wants you to value life (yours and others)...  No wife beating allowed or encouraged by the Christian God.  No virgins in heaven for you to bang when you kill yourself in the name of "the creator".  The morals taught by God are the morals that our world strives to live by, but fails anyway.  Everything just seems to add up.  ''

First of all you can't say that THE god of the Christians is that much different OR better from The god of the Muslims. Christians also used to be ' GOD SAYS YOU NEED TO WORSHIP 10X TIMES A DAY OR YOU GO TO HELL' or ' Killing an infidel is not a sin , it is a path to heaven ' . The last one is actually a true saying during the 10th-13th centuries when Christians 'spread' ( ahem mostly in a very BLOODY way ) their believes . Christians did burn innocent people because they were 'witches' or 'warlocks' or 'magicians'  etc.

There are similarities, won't argue with that.  But the values taught by Muslims don't hold a candle to the Christian ones in terms of common sense moral values.  As for your examples of barbaric actions from Christians, what about em?  Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.  Nowhere in the bible does it say that you NEED TO PRAY EVERY SINGLE DAY.  We don't even have to go to church.  What I'm saying is that the radical and horrible actions that have been done by Christians in the past were not actions that were encouraged by God or by the Bible.  I can point out plenty of horrible things encouraged in the Quran though.  We have a thing called free will, duh.  What the followers of God decided to do with their time isn't a concern of mine and is something that God most likely had no control of.  I'm betting that those that went about the crusades in a bloody manner were punished anyways.  I don't know.

Oh now you will try to say that it was a long time ago and that its not the God who ordered those bloody witch hunts and the infamous crusades and the Church said 'Come on guys , we are sorry!'. But then again , its not the god that orders Muslims to go kill 'infidels' and calls for a Jihad .As the Bible , the Koran is also a book which was written by mortal people so not in any way the actions of the current generation prove that THE MUSLIM GOD is not the 'right' God. Muslim might also say in the future ' Oh we are sorry for kinda killing you infidels , forgive us okay ?' But that won't change the fact that both Christianity and the Muslim religion were used to kill innocent people . Oh and by the way , crimes against humanity have no time frame( Its hard to say this in English. It means that it doesn't matter when it happened , you can still be charged and found guilty , depends on the evidence ) , so i would be happy if someone charges the 'church' with violations of human rights .

Yeah I did say that.  You fail to recognize the stark differences in moral values between the two.  The Quran teaches things that are completely against what the western world pushes for.  Things like: women are less than men.  You can beat your wife.  You can marry more than one wife. 

Does sexism really sound like something that God would be for?  Honestly?  If there is a God, and I believe there is just stay with me here, do you REALLY believe that the completely perfect and neutral creator would allow for half of his creations being mere sex slaves?  Gimme a break.

You know , actually the Muslim religion is more convincing to me than Christianity. Just think about it ? How many Christian interpretations of the holy Bible are there ? The old Testament , The new Testament , King Jameses Testament , Orthodox Bible(it is a bit different than the catholic one or the protestant one) , not to mention the 'crazy' new 'christian' churches which have appeared lately (around 1-90 years old) .

Lol.  Just because there are some loons who believe they have found new things about Christianity you think that Christianity as a whole is unbelievable?  Dude.  No logic.  Basic (and believable) story of Christianity is:  There always has been a God.  God was present in the nothingness before the "big bang".  God designs the "big bang" to perfectly place our Earth in the universe.  God initiates the creation of the universe using whatever method, we'll find out eventually (still, not rejecting the big bang theory on this one).  God places life on Earth which he designs to eventually "evolve" into humans.

Scientific theories are theories that could very well be used in determining some of the methods used by God.

Compared to that , the Muslim religion has only 3 Koran interpretations . The Shiit Koran(The old Koran) , The Sunit Koran(The new Koran ) and the Vohabit Koran ( The terrorists Koran ). If i remember correctly  Shiit is the old one and Sunit is the new one but i don't remember for sure , so i might be wrong on this .

So 3 interpretations against around 7 or more ( i really don't know all the wacky christian branches and their absurd bibles ) . I would say that Mr. Muslim doesn't change his views on his religion every 200 years or so which probably makes it more believable and the Muslim god a bit more better in a way compared to the Christian one .

I could go interperet the Quran right now.  Add that one to the list.  Your point is, snakebit?  My point is that judging the believability of a religion by looking at the number of interperetations of its holy book of moral values is insane.

You're rejecting that there could be a God, and that an incredible preacher named Jesus could be his messenger, because there have been multiple interperetations of a book?  It's pretty much a fact that Jesus did exist.  It's just whether you trust his words or not and if you believe that our universe was intelligently designed or not.  That's it.

[Snakebit.]

There are similarities, won't argue with that.  But the values taught by Muslims don't hold a candle to the Christian ones in terms of common sense moral values.  As for your examples of barbaric actions from Christians, what about em?  Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.  Nowhere in the bible does it say that you NEED TO PRAY EVERY SINGLE DAY.  We don't even have to go to church.  What I'm saying is that the radical and horrible actions that have been done by Christians in the past were not actions that were encouraged by God or by the Bible.  I can point out plenty of horrible things encouraged in the Quran though.  We have a thing called free will, duh.  What the followers of God decided to do with their time isn't a concern of mine and is something that God most likely had no control of.  I'm betting that those that went about the crusades in a bloody manner were punished anyways.  I don't know.

1st of all . Need to pray every single day doesn't really make any religion bad . Its just a way of worshiping their god. And actually the horrible actions in the past , like the crusades for example , were encouraged by the bible .' Its a trile given by god ' .Oh and the interpretation of the Bible is very important . How would you know anything about the GOD of the Christians without it ??
Without the Bible Christianity would not exist . Without it you wouldn't know what god stands for .

Yeah I did say that.  You fail to recognize the stark differences in moral values between the two.  The Quran teaches things that are completely against what the western world pushes for.  Things like: women are less than men.  You can beat your wife.  You can marry more than one wife.

Does sexism really sound like something that God would be for?  Honestly?  If there is a God, and I believe there is just stay with me here, do you REALLY believe that the completely perfect and neutral creator would allow for half of his creations being mere sex slaves?  Gimme a break.

Since when is western culture = Christianity ?  Do you even understand that Christianity appeared in the Middle East and it only spread to Europe and America after several hundred years of its establishment ? Oh and your god didn't give a damn about women before the middle of the 20th century . He didn't care that they had no rights , he didn't care about fixed marriages , he didn't care about slavery , he didn't care about women getting beat up if they disobeyed their parents , he didn't care about a lot of those witches during the middle ages didn't he  ? ( Okay forget the witches this argument is old) . Christianity adapted with time to the western culture and hence it become what it is now . You don't worship 'moral values of god' you just worship 'moral values of the west' now . Would be fun to see in 50-100 years when Muslim countries will give rights to women , how will Koran adapt ? And don't give me that it won't . It somehow adapted to 'Terrorism' . Nowhere in the Koran it is said to go blow yourself up to kill several 'occupants' OR infidels for the matter .

Lol.  Just because there are some loons who believe they have found new things about Christianity you think that Christianity as a whole is unbelievable?  Dude.  No logic.  Basic (and believable) story of Christianity is:  There always has been a God.  God was present in the nothingness before the "big bang".  God designs the "big bang" to perfectly place our Earth in the universe.  God initiates the creation of the universe using whatever method, we'll find out eventually (still, not rejecting the big bang theory on this one).  God places life on Earth which he designs to eventually "evolve" into humans.

Scientific theories are theories that could very well be used in determining some of the methods used by God.

The logic is simple . Without the Bible you wouldn't know anything about God or Christianity . And since it has been rewritten a lot of times means it has changed a lot . People don't rewrite the same book several times unless there is something seriously wrong with it . During the last 2000 or morals have changed a lot but still are not that great . So your holy book 'The Bible' changed with them . I bet in 50 years condoms are also gonna be 'okay' and Jesus will tell us all a great reason for it .

As i said before about the Big Bang. Its a theory <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< means it has not been proven yet so you can't say anything based on it simply because IT MIGHT NOT HAVE HAPPENED .
You can't say god created the BIG BANG or it just Happened because it hasn't been proven yet that actually the BIG BANG created the universe.

Which brings me to a logical questions . If god created everything , then why are we carnivores ? Why do we eat other animals ? Isn't that 'immoral' to kill other 'gods creations ?' (Well living creations at the least ). We could just happily eat grass or berries or pop corn or whatever . I don't see any logic in his actions , do you ? Is this one more 'trile' given by the all mighty GOD which nobody notices ?

I could go interperet the Quran right now.  Add that one to the list.  Your point is, snakebit?  My point is that judging the believability of a religion by looking at the number of interperetations of its holy book of moral values is insane.

You're rejecting that there could be a God, and that an incredible preacher named Jesus could be his messenger, because there have been multiple interperetations of a book?  It's pretty much a fact that Jesus did exist.  It's just whether you trust his words or not and if you believe that our universe was intelligently designed or not.  That's it.

It doesn't matter if you go interpret it or not . But it matters if there are a lot interpretations of the bible  and A LOT of people believe them . Which makes your interpretation of the bible the 'correct' one and the other ones the 'incorrect' ones  ? You wouldn't know anything about your god without the BIBLE . So you can judge religion .


Oh and please name the 'moral values' which you worship in Christianity when you reply to this in the end.

[Tidenburg]

Heh, just found this on evilbible.com ^_^
(Not all aimed at you Papa)

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering.  And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."


3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers.  You consider that to be evidence that prayer works.  And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

[Cyntrox]

Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.

Oh, bullshit.

First google hit: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[Snakebit.]

Nowhere in the bible is it encouraged to kill.

Oh, bullshit.

First google hit: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

That is what i am saying . Its the way how people interpret this . For me this is just what have already happened and has no meaning in the present . The god might be a bit violent at times if you believe in him but surely he doesn't say ' YOU MAGGOTS GO KILL SOME PEOPLE ' . It is a description of the past and so is the Koran . There are places with similar things described in the Koran and nowhere in it it is said 'to go kill some infidels or occupants' . It is just the way you interpret it and usually people interpret it according to their needs.

For example . You want to prove your argument so you interpret such sayings in the bible as a thing that encourages to kill.
Or the terrorists in Iraq / Afganistan / South Arabia and many other Muslim countries are encouraged to go kill people in the same way . Just because 'some' guy in a Church says so . Priest are people who interpret the words of 'god' to us so a lot of people believe them .

The only big difference between the Muslim religion and Christianity is that Christians live mostly in Dc's (Developed Countries) or close to being a Dc . Well the bigger part of Christians does so our moral standards are a bit higher because we are a 'more' civilized . And Muslims live in countries with a lot of internal struggle , conflict , bloodshed and feel oppressed . ( Iraq / Iran / Afghanistan / Palestine / Pakistan / Bangladesh / Northern regions of India / all the small countries around Israel etc etc). So they didn't have time to think about their morals .......
In the last 100 years they were only trying to regain their freedom and independence while we 'exploited' them .

[Cyntrox]

Its the way how people interpret this .

Oh, I've found a few examples. How much room for interpretation does this really leave? These are not things that have happened in the past, these are laws that all christians are supposed to follow.

All from Exodus:

21:7  And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
21:8  If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
(So selling your daughter is fine, according to the bible)

21:15  And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
21:17  And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. 
(And if you curse at your parents, that's reason enough for capital punishment)

21:28  If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
21:29  But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
(If an ox that is known to be unruly attacks someone, the ox should get stoned and the owner killed. Did anyone say that there is no violence in the bible?)

[Farley4Fan]

I never said no violence. 

I also looked into that source where it showed encouragement of killing infidels in the Quran.  Seems legit.  Plenty of examples (all real from my research) from the Quran which encourage beheadings, killings, and crucifictions of "Non-believers", kaffirs, infidels. 

http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm

You know, I try to be fair.  I take the points from each side especially in heated topics such as this one.  I will listen to your points and I hope you'll see mine.

About the "killing encouraged in the bible", doesn't this one override it completely? 

"Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Seriously, anything else in the Bible that looks as though it encourages anyone to KILL, is obviously not as it seems because of that 1 commandment.  Do.  Not.  Kill.  Overidden.  Right?

[Cyntrox]

And what makes that commandment count for more than the countless places in the bible where killing is literally commanded? It's one of the many contradictions in the bible. How can follow a religion whos "holy book" tells you not to kill on one page and tells you to kill on the next? As for seeing both sides of the topic, I was raised a christian but due to things such as this don't consider myself one anymore.

[Tidenburg]

Papa, have you even _read_ the bible? If you don't remember the blatently obvious ones then here is one every 1st grader would know, Because man was "evil" God sent a wave to kill all the animals, humans and (many) plants except the few gathered on a boat. Or do you only count _direct_ murder?

Heh, you have to be pretty blind not to see murder in the bible, most of the well known stories include it.

[Farley4Fan]

Papa, have you even _read_ the bible? If you don't remember the blatently obvious ones then here is one every 1st grader would know, Because man was "evil" God sent a wave to kill all the animals, humans and (many) plants except the few gathered on a boat. Or do you only count _direct_ murder?

Heh, you have to be pretty blind not to see murder in the bible, most of the well known stories include it.

DUDE.  READ MY POST - I've told you this a few times before on this very thread.  I never said there was no violence.  Grim times call for grim measures and grim stories.  Of course there was murder in the STORIES.

All those "commandings of murder", the ones you think are encouraged in the bible, simply are not.  They obviously aren't trying to get you to kill because on the next page it tells you not to kill.  This may seem like an obvious contradiction but I seriously doubt that the greatest book of all time, whoever the writer may be (matter of opinion), would be stupid enough to trip over his/her own feet so blatantly.  There's something else.  A message of morality in those words, the ones you think are telling you to stone your ox to death.  Lol.  Not meant literally.  Not all of it in the bible is meant literally, of course.

[Snakebit.]

As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran

[AgentX_003]

As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran

wiki isn't always a valid source.  Ok this debate has gone for like 13 pages, can we just drop it?

if " insert name here "  wants to be an atheist then let it be so.

sooner or later gods gunna cut you down -Johnny Cash

[Snakebit.]

As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran

wiki isn't always a valid source.  Ok this debate has gone for like 13 pages, can we just drop it?

if " insert name here "  wants to be an atheist then let it be so.

sooner or later gods gunna cut you down -Johnny Cash

There are copy pastes of surveys done by scientists . Well small parts of them .

[Farley4Fan]

As you said papa skull . Koran is also a book written by people so you can't just believe everything in it.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_Koran

Yes, because I don't think that the God like the one Islamic people worship could ever exist, so therefore it was written by men.  I don't believe a sexist, murder-encouraging creator could exist.  If there is a creator, stay with me, don't you believe that the God would stand up for equal rights and equal oppurtunity for all his creations?  Not just the men?  This goes back to when you said Islam was more believable the Christianity.

The other God, the RIGHTEOUS God, I believe exists. 

There's an old saying.  "For what I have seen has convinced me to trust the creator for the things I have not seen."  It means that over the courses of our lives we will see amazing things (good or bad) happen.  As we grow old we can't help but see that there is a spirtual side to our universe, one that cannot be explained by pure observable facts, though ironically we do technically observe them.  I don't mean old like each day, but as our lives start to draw to an end a lot of us will realize that the world is not just skin and bones, data and spreadsheets, but something more.  Sure, not all of us will see it by the end of our days.  But this is the test, the test of faith.  It makes sense to me.  All seems to coincide perfectly.

Is it the Quran or the Koran?  I've seen it spelled both ways but I've always thought it was with a Q.

Snakebit, what are you?  Atheist?  Agnostic?

[Blank Man]

Okay... maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't. A philosipher once said "imagine a group of people who have spent their entire lives living in a building with no windows, people who have never seen the outdoors. If a man would have run into the building and screamed "FIRE!" so that everybody would finally see what is behind the walls... would he be lying?" I think he had a good point, sure there was no fire... but does it matter? What matters is that the people who were in that cage, finally know the world behind it. BUT, christianity and every other ORGANIZED religion force you to believe in the fire, not to believe in things behind our own world. That's why all the little fucks who walk up to your door step and convince you that this man did this to make humanity into this could fornicate themselves with their very own bibles.