i am an atheist

[Farley4Fan]

You would think with the thousands if not millions of prayers going out each day that they would make a difference, right? Oh snap.

Who says it doesn't?  Just because you pray for world peace doesn't mean it's going to happen, though, but it also doesn't mean you shouldn't pray for peace at all.

This reminds me of Ion (I think) when he said that some Christians believe if they just pray for success and material items then everything will be okay and granted - but that's not necessarily true.  He said his neighbor prayed to God that he would get a certain job or be successful or something but I can't quite remember.  It's just naive.

God wants you to love him, but have the will power and determination to accomplish things on your own.  I believe the best way to pray is to ask God for the strength to accomplish something on your own, not praying that God do all the accomplishing for you.  Seems obvious but some Christians don't see that.

It still doesn't look like you understand my logic and reasoning behind what I'm saying, I guess I'm not articulate enough to explain it any better, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I still would like to hear some of your thoughts about my post from the last page, which was a direct response to you.

Maybe I don't understand but I thought it was pretty simple.

I didn't see a post you directed at me on the last page but I'll find it and respond to it later if I feel the need  ;)  Lol I will

One last comment.  With God being omniscent, he knows who will pray for what and when.  If he has a master plan, then why couldn't the master plan include "answering" those prayers?  And the term "master plan" is a bit up to debate on how intricate the master plan actually is.  Is it just the basic end of the world events?  Is it every single event in the entire universe? 

I personally believe it's the former.  God wouldn't have trouble answering prayers if he has a master plan as long as the prayer isn't something like "Please don't let the Antichrist be born" or "Please God I don't want to see Armageddon"...

[VenomousNinja]

Farley Fan, let me ask you, if god is omniscent, do we humans have free will?

[Farley4Fan]

That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times.  It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time.  Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions.  The key word being "WE".  The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people.  It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?

The thing is, we don't have to understand it.  It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way. 

[Tidenburg]

It's funny because your last sentence is most of the reason religious people think Big Bang and Evolution don't work.

Hur hur.

[Farley4Fan]

Hur hur same thing with atheists and God existing before the big bang.  Evolution isn't hard to understand.  For some people, it's just hard to come to grips with - and that's unforunate.

[VaNilla]

Hur hur same thing with atheists and God existing before the big bang.  Evolution isn't hard to understand.  For some people, it's just hard to come to grips with - and that's unforunate.

Assuming your referring to the Christian god, then 'he' would tell you that the evidence behind Evolution is false, given that it leads us millions of years into the past, as opposed to thousands. Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to force my beliefs upon anybody, but there's some glaringly obvious flaws in the logic of religion that are very hard to ignore.

[Farley4Fan]

The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old.  That's not even what the Bible says.

Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?

[VenomousNinja]

That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times.  It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time.  Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions.  The key word being "WE".  The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people.  It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?

The thing is, we don't have to understand it.  It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way. 

Except, we fully understand the idea. It's the fact that we understand it to be impossible, because if something knows the future, it is predetermined, and we do not have free will. On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.

Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth#History

[Farley4Fan]

You kind of helped my argument.

On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.

When you say "cannot be predicted", it just means you don't understand how it could possibly be "predicted".  We cannot comprehend this because WE PERCIEVE it to be impossible.

Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.

It does not say this in the Bible, obviously, and that's what I was getting at.  These are just interpretations made about Biblical terms with human terms.  I wonder if they actually added 7 days to the end of their guesses to be super exact hahah

[Tidenburg]

That's an interesting topic for sure and I've had this debate quite a few times.  It's a mindfuck but yes, humans do have free will even with God knowing ahead of time.  Someone once told me that we have already made our decisions.  The key word being "WE".  The whole point of life is to figure out why we made those decisions and become better people.  It's almost a paradox that makes sense for 5 seconds and then doesn't and then makes sense again for another 5 seconds, you know?

The thing is, we don't have to understand it.  It's hard for humans to conceptualize a lot of things but it doesn't mean that things don't work that way. 

Except, we fully understand the idea. It's the fact that we understand it to be impossible, because if something knows the future, it is predetermined, and we do not have free will. On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.

Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth#History

That's because we're 3-Dimensional beings who perceive a cross section of time, (we see it slice by slice) so we can't know what's coming or see what's happened. Much like a being entirely 2D would only see one slice of the 3D world. An all powerful God would probably exist on a higher level and be able to see the whole of time stretched before him.

Just a theory. Read up flatlanders. It does have support (but yeah, psuedo-science regardless)

[VaNilla]

The "logic" of religion doesn't say that the Earth is thousands of years old.  That's not even what the Bible says.

Do you know where the whole "thousands of years" thing came from?

Tell that to the countless number of biblical scholars who will use the 'thousands of years' argument to negate evolution.

[VenomousNinja]

On the other hand, if we have free will, then the future is not predetermined and cannot be predicted, and then God is not omniscient.

When you say "cannot be predicted", it just means you don't understand how it could possibly be "predicted".  We cannot comprehend this because WE PERCIEVE it to be impossible.

No, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.

Edit: Also, the whole 'thousands of years' thing did come from the bible. It's just a very literal interpretation.

It does not say this in the Bible, obviously, and that's what I was getting at.  These are just interpretations made about Biblical terms with human terms.  I wonder if they actually added 7 days to the end of their guesses to be super exact hahah

Actually, it does. Like I said, it's just an alternate interpretation.

[Tidenburg]

No, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.

Not true, if you stood back and viewed time as a whole, you'd see everything that's ever happened. Just because you can see it all at once doesn't mean no decisions were made, nothing is truely random - you make all your choices because of the way you're conditioned, even the ones you think are random. Your life and the future is set in stone. (and I'm not even religious)

[Farley4Fan]

Actually, it does. Like I said, it's just an alternate interpretation.

Actually it does not.  As you said, it's a human interpretation.

[VenomousNinja]

No, I mean 'cannot be predicted'. Because again, if the future can be accurately predicted, then it is set in stone, and there are no decisions to be made.

Not true, if you stood back and viewed time as a whole, you'd see everything that's ever happened. Just because you can see it all at once doesn't mean no decisions were made, nothing is truely random - you make all your choices because of the way you're conditioned, even the ones you think are random. Your life and the future is set in stone. (and I'm not even religious)

Hey buddy, I know you love looking just so smart on this forum, but next time, take my damn quotes in context.

Actually it does not.  As you said, it's a human interpretation.

So I assume your interpretation is not human, that yours is the ultimate and correct, and you have proof to back that up? Please, present it.