OMG where's the new stuff?

[frvge]

If the mapper wants to trigger 'game end' when you shoot something, that's possible. We give you the tools (being able to hack and trigger 'objectives' for any reason), you decide the gameplay based on those tools.

[ghinsu]

I'd like to see a more developed close combat for the spies, I mean, not just the regular elbow hit if the merc is in front of you, let's say a ko hit that makes him sleep for 1 sec if you catch him on the sides, or a sweep kick if you are crouching, or stuff like that :)

[frvge]

KO-ing the Merc is not the goal of the elbow hit. The goal is to cover up your mistake and get a second head-start.

We have some context-aware moves in early concept stage.

[NeoSuperior]

right. If the spy could use such Kung Fu moves, they would feel motivated to get into a confrontation, which they shouldn't do... at least not with a reward like K.O.-ing the merc.

[Farley4Fan]

I thought that knocking a merc down/taking a bit of his health would be a good reward for elbowing a jumping merc.  You said you currently do not allow Mercs to jump, but I think people would rather have the ability to jump at will.  Sure, removing the jump will also remove some of the "problems" surrounding CQC, but I've never been a fan of context sensitive stuff in an FPS.  It's not like you can't fix the problems without removing the jump completely.

Man I get sick of talking about this stuff without the ability to test it.

WHERE"S THE NEW STUFF????

BETA!

[NeoSuperior]

wait... if the B*TA increases the amount of time by 1 month... wouldn't ATEB accelerate it by 1 month? :D

Well anyway.... in my opinion even a jumping merc (if jumping would be included) that is elbowed, should just be pushed back like a normal merc... of course if that happens from behind, its a different story...

BTW: I would like a option to throw a granade without the gun, as merc. Of course not instant exploding, but like a normal shot nade, so if 2 spies are teaming up on 1 merc and he is out of gas mask or so, he can get some distance by throwing a nade on the ground and running away.

[DreadStunLock]

Sayin the forbidden word is actually 3 months x)

[ghinsu]

Well not necesarily alway ko the merc, let's say a 5% chance you'll ko him when you hit him?

Also more killing or ko-ing alternatives would be cool, so far, the only thing spies have are:
-Elbow hit
-Grab
-Rail grab
-Jump on head
-Slap when the merc is crouching

How about a suspended neck snap like in chaos theory singleplayer?

Another thing I've been thinking about: Keycodes

This works like this: Everything that can be hacked on a map has keycodes, now the spy can normally hack them, but they could also use the keycode for the same effect, without alerting the mercs. While we're at it, the mercs should be able to change the keycodes at will, and all mercs will know when one code has been changed. Now, how about the spy automatically gets one RANDOM keycode from a merc (the mercs don't know which code the spy took), if he holds him for like 10 seconds.
Watcha think? :D

[DreadStunLock]

Well not necesarily alway ko the merc, let's say a 5% chance you'll ko him when you hit him?

Also more killing or ko-ing alternatives would be cool, so far, the only thing spies have are:
-Elbow hit
-Grab
-Rail grab
-Jump on head
-Slap when the merc is crouching

How about a suspended neck snap like in chaos theory singleplayer?

Another thing I've been thinking about: Keycodes

This works like this: Everything that can be hacked on a map has keycodes, now the spy can normally hack them, but they could also use the keycode for the same effect, without alerting the mercs. While we're at it, the mercs should be able to change the keycodes at will, and all mercs will know when one code has been changed. Now, how about the spy automatically gets one RANDOM keycode from a merc (the mercs don't know which code the spy took), if he holds him for like 10 seconds.
Watcha think? :D

Please dear god, denied.

[ghinsu]

Well not necesarily alway ko the merc, let's say a 5% chance you'll ko him when you hit him?

Also more killing or ko-ing alternatives would be cool, so far, the only thing spies have are:
-Elbow hit
-Grab
-Rail grab
-Jump on head
-Slap when the merc is crouching

How about a suspended neck snap like in chaos theory singleplayer?

Another thing I've been thinking about: Keycodes

This works like this: Everything that can be hacked on a map has keycodes, now the spy can normally hack them, but they could also use the keycode for the same effect, without alerting the mercs. While we're at it, the mercs should be able to change the keycodes at will, and all mercs will know when one code has been changed. Now, how about the spy automatically gets one RANDOM keycode from a merc (the mercs don't know which code the spy took), if he holds him for like 10 seconds.
Watcha think? :D

Please dear god, denied.

Which one is denied? The code or the suspended neck snap? xD

[DreadStunLock]

Hopefully everything, the 5% kill? Really?

Suspended neck snap? What?

Keycodes? No way.

[Farley4Fan]

The suspended neck snap was the move Sam could use when hanging on a horizontal pipe.  He picked up the enemy and choked them out/snapped their neck.  I think it would be nice to see in multiplayer even it would be a rare feat.  It may only work after a merc has been confused/disoriented in a very dark area but it would be cool.  It also adds some verticality to the gameplay.

Keycodes?  Maybe.  If people want to make some doors that are possible, but difficult, for spies to enter there could be some sort of code system.  You get a code after grabbing a merc but you only have 10 seconds to use it before the code changes itself for security reasons.  Instead of dragging a merc all the way to a door and getting yourself killed by the other merc, you can just snag his code and use it to access restricted areas.

[DreadStunLock]

The suspended neck snap was the move Sam could use when hanging on a horizontal pipe.  He picked up the enemy and choked them out/snapped their neck.  I think it would be nice to see in multiplayer even it would be a rare feat.  It may only work after a merc has been confused/disoriented in a very dark area but it would be cool.  It also adds some verticality to the gameplay.

Keycodes?  Maybe.  If people want to make some doors that are possible, but difficult, for spies to enter there could be some sort of code system.  You get a code after grabbing a merc but you only have 10 seconds to use it before the code changes itself for security reasons.  Instead of dragging a merc all the way to a door and getting yourself killed by the other merc, you can just snag his code and use it to access restricted areas.

Yes, but advanced players know how to keep their targeting reticle above the horizon line.

[Cronky]

The suspended neck snap was the move Sam could use when hanging on a horizontal pipe.  He picked up the enemy and choked them out/snapped their neck.  I think it would be nice to see in multiplayer even it would be a rare feat.  It may only work after a merc has been confused/disoriented in a very dark area but it would be cool.  It also adds some verticality to the gameplay.

My only concern is Maps not built with that in mind. Kinda similar situations that the Ledge Grab gets some flak (in my mind at least) for. Spies would be waiting at choke points throughout the map that they KNOW Mercs will go through and picking them off because there isn't much that can be done to counter it (Ledge grab example that comes to mind is the 2ft drop kill on Club House Garden Room). Imagine for some reason a doorway had a pipe somewhere above it. A Spy could wait at the doorway and just wait for Mercs. Depending on how fast the move is executed, the Merc may have no real way to avoid that.

At least with ledge grabs you can shoot the fingers of a spy, as Mercs can always see the ground of the room in front of them. They can't always see the ceiling. (Unless a hanging spy is low and his hands pop in from the top of a doorway)

Keycodes?  Maybe.  If people want to make some doors that are possible, but difficult, for spies to enter there could be some sort of code system.  You get a code after grabbing a merc but you only have 10 seconds to use it before the code changes itself for security reasons.  Instead of dragging a merc all the way to a door and getting yourself killed by the other merc, you can just snag his code and use it to access restricted areas.

I didn't think of this the first time I read that keycode idea, but your idea sounds like a legit reason/way it could work. Grab a Merc, get a pass. Maybe it only works if you knock out Mercs as there is some game world reason why the locks change upon death of a Merc. Giving people another reason to KO, rather than Kill. On top of the code changing regardless after X amount of time.

[Farley4Fan]

I agree Cronky that the suspended grab may only be as effective as the ledge grab, but I still like the idea.  Obviously it would work better on some maps than others, much like the ledge grab, but I still like it as an idea to throw out when the devs are in a position to quickly make additions to the gameplay.

I've always thought of the ledge grab as the spy's "mine" of sorts.  Like the merc mine, it really only works when the enemy is offguard, distracted, or rushing to get somewhere really quickly.  This suspended grab is just another kind of "mine" for the spies, and they would have to learn to use it at the proper times.

One way to counter a spy that may be hanging from a ledge above a doorway would be to charge through the doorway.  I suggest that the mapmakers just avoid placing the pipes in such places.

To me the idea looks good on paper, even if the spy could just as easily jump on the merc from a pipe

I like your idea about only receiving a code after knocking out a merc especially because it could be easily described and taught in a tutorial.  I think we can mostly agree that KO'ing needs some more incentives for doing so, and gaining access to some rooms with goodies (hack panels, useful passageways, health packs etc) is a great way to even out the kill/KO ratio a bit.  To add an explanation, we could say the security systems detect the vital signs of the mercenaries.  If the mercenaries fail and are killed, the security system goes into a lockdown mode to protect itself and the doors are locked for a period of time.  Something like that.