Project Stealth

Forums => Public Discussion => Topic started by: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 01:47:15 PM

Title: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 01:47:15 PM
i think that a merc confusion gadget could proove fun and get implemented pretty balanced:
-create a pretty realistic hologram where you aim that doesn't show up in emf
-silently hack visions/security messages/radar from merc (everything seems normal but he gets no alerts, mt detection etc); instant effect while aiming at him, the longer you aim at him the longer the effect stays afterwards
-get information about exact amount of gadgets (how many frags left, how much % of mask left etc)
-gadget drains energy/time and makes you visible in emf
this would allow totally new teamplay and stealth possibilities.

old suggestion:
[what could add total new elements of gameplay is a versatile gadget similar to the hacking glove in another sam game. it may sound unbalanced, but could get quite balanced with certain restrictions. how about that:
-range 30m (hbs range)
-allows disabling of mines/traps/passive security etc (only) while aiming at them not creating any security alerts, working through walls
-hacking laptops: speed dependant on distance, 1m=>75%, 10m=>50%, 20m=>25% of hacking speed without it, not working through walls
-hacking merc's visions/radar/security break messages etc for 10s without him knowing after aiming 3s at him, not working through walls
-giving you information on the merc's health, equipment instantly when aiming at him
-the gadget drains quite some energy/time (making camo+this not op for stealth players), usable for 10s with full energy
-ability to project an almost perfect hologram of a walking/crouching/gun-pulling spy where you aim at
EDIT:(but you can see on emf where it comes from like you can see the light coming from a projector if there's smoke in the air)
-you appear on emf using it

it actually sounds quite balanced to me considering that you only get 50% of a 10s-objective with it from 10m distance after which you have drown all your energy. you can also not move quickly while using it and it works almost only for stealth purposes.
it has also some other advantages:
-with a gadget like this, we can remove the ability of chaff to work through walls (maybe increase the radius to compensate, especially the vertical one)
-totally new stealth teamplay possibilities
-...
this may actually sound weird coming from someone like me, but with enough balance work this could be the improvement we learned from scda.
but hey, i also think a presence detector could work if it's implemented in a balanced way...]
discuss ;D
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Cyntrox on February 05, 2008, 02:52:59 PM
I like it. Although the hologram sounds kind of overpowered - but how about you can see on EMF where it comes from? Like you can see the light coming from a projector if there's smoke in the air.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 05, 2008, 04:19:47 PM
I was talking with binary about something similar to this.  Except it's a gun alternative for stealth players.

It's basically looks like the gun we have now.  Maybe a different looking barrel.  Here's what it does:

-It projects a cone of photons and has a range of about 20 feet.  The further you are away, the larger the circular end of the cone end becomes.  This makes it easier to hit things from further away.

- The cone of photons disables electronic devices silently.  Instead of that loud shock or that loud boom you get for shooting a mine with a regular ss.

- It does not fire ss bullets.  It's solely for stealth players who shouldn't get into a position that they have to use it anyways.  When the gun is fired at mercs their visions are completely disabled for around 5-10 seconds.  This leaves you able to move while using camo w/o being seen by any vision.  And allows you to be able to flash the merc easily, and escape.

- It is NOT a launcher, except for small things like spy bullets/stickies.  Meaning you can't launch nades.

- Maybe hbs should only be possible while using this alternative gun?  Maybe equip it with a scanner but it's only activated when you take hbs as a gadget?

- Maybe my sound reticule idea would only be possible while using this alternative gun?

(that way you can still use spy bullets and stickies for recon w/o

Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 05, 2008, 04:53:40 PM
I'm up for w/e you guys think of, just wait till PS gets released.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 05:44:11 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 05, 2008, 02:52:59 PM
I like it. Although the hologram sounds kind of overpowered - but how about you can see on EMF where it comes from? Like you can see the light coming from a projector if there's smoke in the air.
sounds good to me. the emf picture of the hologram should also be easy distinguishable from a real one or not appear at all. i'll add this suggestion in the initial post.
@papa: i think trading the SS for something different is a too large change of the basic  game mechanics.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 05:46:55 PM
I'm not a fan of remote hacking.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 05:53:50 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 05:46:55 PM
I'm not a fan of remote hacking.
well the radius would be pretty limited, it would be way slower than normal hacking, the gadget takes one slot, drains energy and the merc could tell the approximate distance by the hacking speed. but you could be right and there are too many complications with the map design. what about the gadget without the ability to hack objectives?
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 05, 2008, 06:28:19 PM
It isn't a change Gawain.  It's more of an addition.  As well as the traditional ss, you could trade it in for my suggestion.  It only favors stealth players.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Westfall on February 05, 2008, 07:09:40 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 05:46:55 PM
I'm not a fan of remote hacking.

im fine if the gadget doesnt hack laptops. the terminals have to be hacked manually.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: excite.gg on February 05, 2008, 07:38:27 PM
yeah it should be hacked manually, cause its a big adventure for spies, i think
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Cyntrox on February 05, 2008, 08:30:14 PM
Papa: I'm not sure if one gun for aggro and one gun for stealth is the way to go - I don't like having my playstyle completely locked from the start of the game.

As for the hologram not appearing on EMF, it doesn't really matter since it'd obvious that it's a hologram if you switch to EMF anyways.
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: Hyrage on February 05, 2008, 09:33:59 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 05:46:55 PM
I'm not a fan of remote hacking.
It killed me on DA >:(
Title: Re: gadget instead of hacking glove
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 05, 2008, 10:33:53 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 05:46:55 PM
I'm not a fan of remote hacking.

Yeah remote hacking really ruined DA. The only kind of remote hacking I'd want is just limited range, like 2m or something, so that you don't have to be standing in exactly the same spot and are tougher to snipe while you're hacking.

Aside from that, it's pretty annoying to look fro a spy hacking something where you can't even see him. If we include remote hacking, we should definitely have some kind of line connecting the spy and the hackpoint that can be followed on EMF, so the game doens't turn into DA style looking around randomly without even a PD. Also remote hacking makes mines crap, because it's just too easy to take out static defenses.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 05, 2008, 11:23:21 PM
Yeah, i like the idea of the EMF line :D
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2008, 04:31:44 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 05, 2008, 08:30:14 PM
Papa: I'm not sure if one gun for aggro and one gun for stealth is the way to go - I don't like having my playstyle completely locked from the start of the game.

As for the hologram not appearing on EMF, it doesn't really matter since it'd obvious that it's a hologram if you switch to EMF anyways.

No, you guys aren't understanding it completely.

This is mainly for those 100% stealth players.  You can still, however, be an aggro player and bring this if you'd like.  Same if you were a stealth kind of player you could still take a ss.  Just whatever suits your playstyle.  If you are in between, then I recommend you take the ss.  If you are more into stealth, the gun I suggested would be a nice alternative.  I think we can ALL agree that the ss is an aggro kind of feature.  It benefits aggro players more than stealth players.  Why not tack on a gun that benefits stealth more than aggro?  I mean, this is a stealth/action game, why not have 2 categories of weapons to choose from for spy?

As for the glove, I'd love it.  As long as you can't hack terminals.   Maybe you could add another objective that you can only hack quickly with a glove?  Like the one from DA.  That way you have something to hack with the glove, as well as use it for other purposes that are minor but useful (shutting off lights, breaking glass, hacking mercs).  Maybe making a completely different mode that enables remote hacking on all objectives except for discs and bombs.  READ BELOW!

I've got an idea.  How about you make a mode where you upload a virus with your glove to servers spread across the map?  That would be pretty cool.  The mercs have to defend the servers from getting uploaded with the viruses that the spies carry in their gloves.  The mercs wouldn't be able to destroy the virus or remove it, but they would have to kill the spies before the viruses are completely uploaded on 3 out of 5 servers in the map.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Westfall on February 06, 2008, 04:41:14 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 06, 2008, 04:31:44 AM
I've got an idea.  How about you make a mode where you upload a virus with your glove to servers spread across the map?  That would be pretty cool.  The mercs have to defend the servers from getting uploaded with the viruses that the spies carry in their gloves.  The mercs wouldn't be able to destroy the virus or remove it, but they would have to kill the spies before the viruses are completely uploaded on 3 out of 5 servers in the map.

This isn't really that bad of an idea. The spies shouldn't have the virus at first. Rather, they should d/l it from 2 different source spots and then be able to upload it to (lets say) 3/5 terminals. This would give great use for a glove, a new game mode and new gadget.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2008, 04:48:54 AM
Maybe that could even be implemented into the current story game mode.  I don't think that the download area to get the virus should be dangerous.  It should be right in the spawn.  The downside is that it takes some time to download the virus and thus taking up some of your time to win the game.  I'd say you should make it last about 10 sec to download fully into your glove, and 20 seconds to upload the virus fully into a server if you stand right next to it the whole time.  You would only be able to complete these objectives quickly if you bring a hacking glove.  Otherwise it would take 20 seconds to download into your suit and 30-40 seconds to upload fully into a server.   

Actually this could be a really nice objective to add into the game.  Even if it's not it's own game mode, which might get old fast.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Westfall on February 06, 2008, 04:55:56 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 06, 2008, 04:48:54 AM
Maybe that could even be implemented into the current story game mode.  I don't think that the download area to get the virus should be dangerous.  It should be right in the spawn.  The downside is that it takes some time to download the virus and thus taking up some of your time to win the game.  I'd say you should make it last about 10 sec to download fully into your glove, and 20 seconds to upload the virus fully into a server if you stand right next to it the whole time.  You would only be able to complete these objectives quickly if you bring a hacking glove.  Otherwise it would take 20 seconds to download into your suit and 30-40 seconds to upload fully into a server.   

Actually this could be a really nice objective to add into the game.  Even if it's not it's own game mode, which might get old fast.  What do you think?


it could be....just like disk drop off. This would make the glove standard though, unless you played "glove-specific" maps. Maybe, if Spekkio's 5 gadget slot system works, the glove can be the mandated slot for spy side.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2008, 04:58:20 AM
This could be an alternative to ss.  I don't think an extra gadget would be in order.  The downside is that you lose the ss, but if you prefer the glove anyways then you don't really lose anything to take it.  The glove wouldn't ONLY do stuff to help this objective, it would still be able to break lights/windows etc...
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Westfall on February 06, 2008, 05:07:23 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 06, 2008, 04:58:20 AM
This could be an alternative to ss.  I don't think an extra gadget would be in order.  The downside is that you lose the ss, but if you prefer the glove anyways then you don't really lose anything to take it.  The glove wouldn't ONLY do stuff to help this objective, it would still be able to break lights/windows etc...


oo....optional main weapon...like mercs have rifle/uzi/shotty.....Sticky Shocker/Glove....I like it.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 05:13:34 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 06, 2008, 05:07:23 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 06, 2008, 04:58:20 AM
This could be an alternative to ss.  I don't think an extra gadget would be in order.  The downside is that you lose the ss, but if you prefer the glove anyways then you don't really lose anything to take it.  The glove wouldn't ONLY do stuff to help this objective, it would still be able to break lights/windows etc...


oo....optional main weapon...like mercs have rifle/uzi/shotty.....Sticky Shocker/Glove....I like it.

If the devs did go with something like that, I think it should look like a radar gun type of device, instead of a glove. Makes more sense to me. Not very sure why.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 06, 2008, 05:19:11 AM
And the stealth gun I suggested.  It would be cool to have 3 different alternative main weapons for spies.  Now THAT would add A LOT of variety.  They each have their own uses.

- ss is sort of the jack of all trades, and it excels in aggro.  Recommended for aggro players.

- The glove helps you complete the virus objective much more easily, and it can help a good amount for stealth players who like darkness.  But it fails in aggro in most categories because you lose your ability to launch nades and gadgets.  (maybe you could place stickies/bullets/snares on walls manually?  What about that nade trap idea where you can plant a nade on the wall and detonate it when a merc walks by it?)  This gadget is about the player's preferance.  It doesn't excel in a certain category other than some stealth.

- And my Stealth Gun idea.  It excels highly in stealth.  With its ability to silently disable electronics and jam the visions of the merc for quite some time, this gadget is recommended for players who keep their main priority being hidden.  The downside of using this is that it is weak in aggro situations.  And can only launch small gadgets like bullets/cameras/snares.  It cannot launch grenades.  Maybe making hbs only available while using this alternate weapon would be a good suggestion.  Like Ion said a second ago.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Cyntrox on February 06, 2008, 08:25:00 AM
In that case, I think there should be one aggro weapon, one balanced and one stealth weapon - rather than one balanced and two stealth like you suggested.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: frvge on February 06, 2008, 11:02:28 AM
Interesting idea. Keep it coming.
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: Gawain on February 06, 2008, 12:48:20 PM
3 different spy "weapons" is a bad idea (3 different merc weapons is a bad one already but not that bad), and so is my idea with an extra gadget. just create a new type of objective that can be hacked from distance with the normal ss. this way you leave the balance work to the map designer which is a good thing.
i still think that merc confusion gadget could be fun and balanced:
-create a hologram where you aim
-silently hack visions/security messages/radar from merc
-get information about exact amount of gadgets
Title: Re: Gadget Suggestion inspired by Hacking Glove
Post by: a3c0i3d on February 06, 2008, 03:38:19 PM
Well the mercs might have three weapons, so basicly three different playstyles. Why limit the spy with only 1 "weapon" ? I kinda like the idea, tbh. Only three might be pushing it abit. Im more for 2 "weapons". A stealth and a agro one. And i see it more like a stealth loadout, or a agro one.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 04:55:11 PM
Now that the thread is entitled "merc confusion gadget," don't we already have snares for that?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 06, 2008, 05:04:43 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 04:55:11 PM
Now that the thread is entitled "merc confusion gadget," don't we already have snares for that?
we got sound confusion, but no optical confusion. besides, the gadget also has some other functions like hexoring omfgwtf### the merc's visions and get useful information. this gadget may be hard make good use of, but offers really great new possibilities, especially for stealth teams.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
Quotebut no optical confusion.
Chaff? Flashbangs? Smoke? Sticky shock to the head? That's 4 gadgets that cause optical confusion.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 06, 2008, 07:08:48 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
Quotebut no optical confusion.
Chaff? Flashbangs? Smoke? Sticky shock to the head? That's 4 gadgets that cause optical confusion.

wasn't the spy hologram one too?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 07, 2008, 02:24:47 AM
Didn't we already discuss this Gawain?  I even made a thread about it.  Feel free to post your suggestions in that thread, because this one is about spy weapons.   

Wait, nevermind.  I see you changed the thread title.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 07, 2008, 06:40:06 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?

Can you elaborate on why "no holograms"? It's actually quite a brilliant idea.

Rather than the "no", why not establish a reason(s) why. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 07, 2008, 07:51:24 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Then come up with something better yourself.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 07, 2008, 08:03:48 AM
I love the idea of holo pods or hallucination grenades.  They could be implemented in an awesome way that is completely balanced.  You guys might want to look at the holopod thread that I made a while back.  It's got some good suggestions for it in there by the community.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Kubanator on February 07, 2008, 08:38:35 AM
How about hallugenic grenades that make your screen blurry, and screw with colours, maybe brighten up some parts of the screen, and darken others. Holopods would be cool, but it should appear as a big EMF ball and the hologram should automatically assume the pose that the spy had when planting it.

And on the three weapon issue, I think that SS stays, your prototype weapon would work, assuming that you would have to keep the weeapon aimed at the target for it to work, and the glove seems rather useless, as it is only for virus objectives and disables your offensive capabilities (What little you have).
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 07, 2008, 09:05:09 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on February 07, 2008, 08:38:35 AM
How about hallugenic grenades that make your screen blurry, and screw with colours, maybe brighten up some parts of the screen, and darken others. Holopods would be cool, but it should appear as a big EMF ball and the hologram should automatically assume the pose that the spy had when planting it.

Flash bang really already covers the whole messing up of the screen. A holo pod would be pretty useful. You should have the option to make it moving or paused.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 07, 2008, 12:49:22 PM
i think my idea is superior to a holo pad because on the one hand it isn't that obvious and offers way more possibilities but on the other hand it requires a spy to actually do something and enforces teamplay.
a holo pad would be way too hard to set up and never convince a merc with more than some hours ingame experience, so it could only work spamming it which is a bad thing.

there's no need for other fancy nades, flash/smoke/chaff work out fine.

the second spy weapon idea sucks, it's impossible to balance a map for both ss and glove. if you want remote hacking and no ss, you need an extra game mode with new maps for it.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 07, 2008, 03:50:28 PM
We've already discussed how to make holopods less obvious, for example:

Record your OWN holopod animations

Have the holopod's movements copy your own.

And holopod's don't deserve to be on EMF, that would make them so obvious.  And it would lead to mercs flipping on EMF everytime they saw a spy.  Plus, holograms are pure light, not electricity.  Possibly you could make the little pod that is projecting the hologram light up on EMF?  It's about the size of a snare.

I would also like hallucination nades.  I don't know if they could be in it as well as holopods, testing would be needed.  But either gadget seems like fun to me.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 07, 2008, 04:42:58 PM
What about a gadget that projects another Spy during battle? It'd mimick the original Spy, but the Merc doesn't know what he should be shooting at.
Think DB/DBZ, one of Tien's moves. Mirror Image or w/e.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Kurbutti on February 07, 2008, 04:44:46 PM
 Frvge, elbow to the head already causes that.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 05:45:12 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 07, 2008, 04:42:58 PM
What about a gadget that projects another Spy during battle? It'd mimick the original Spy, but the Merc doesn't know what he should be shooting at.
Think DB/DBZ, one of Tien's moves. Mirror Image or w/e.
Are you honestly suggesting that you should take a technique from a TV cartoon based on fighting and adopt it to a game based on stealth???
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 07, 2008, 05:51:27 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no

elaborate.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 07, 2008, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 07, 2008, 05:51:27 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no

elaborate.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 07, 2008, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 07, 2008, 05:51:27 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no

elaborate.
I don't see any reasons why people think it would be good other than "omfg it'd be awesome." I also don't even see anywhere close to a consensus on how such a gadget would be implemented in-game.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 07, 2008, 07:58:16 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 07, 2008, 05:53:15 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 07, 2008, 05:51:27 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 07, 2008, 04:48:18 AM
No holograms. Am I the only one who thinks 3/4's of these suggestions are completely retarded?
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 06:04:40 AM
no

elaborate.
I don't see any reasons why people think it would be good other than "omfg it'd be awesome." I also don't even see anywhere close to a consensus on how such a gadget would be implemented in-game.

Its actually been discussed a few times before. It creates quite the diversion, which I think would seem obvious. The way it should be handled and set-up should still be discussed, but if it were no smaller than a bullet or cam it could be shot/manually set up. You can customize it to move how you move, or even keep it paused. This is why we talk about things on the forum. To balance it out or even see if its not worth it. It would be a new gadget and very useful. Just another gadget of trickery for the spy side.

Mercs wont recognize it every time its planted, which will bring them to an entirely different location than where the spy really is. Really, set up the holo pod and shoot a snare next to it. Bet you money it would fuck you up a few times.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Xris on February 07, 2008, 09:00:51 PM
should it make noise?? possibly a cross between snare and hologram?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: kronf on February 07, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
These holograms, holopads, wireless hacking just seem too high-tech to me and just doesn't fit in the current story mode. You want holograms and wireless hacking? Then make a different game mode for it! It will be great to play some fresh new game modes with new things, but don't try to squeeze these things into a classic story mode where it just doesn't fit.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 07, 2008, 09:58:45 PM
QuoteIts actually been discussed a few times before. It creates quite the diversion, which I think would seem obvious. The way it should be handled and set-up should still be discussed, but if it were no smaller than a bullet or cam it could be shot/manually set up. You can customize it to move how you move, or even keep it paused. This is why we talk about things on the forum. To balance it out or even see if its not worth it. It would be a new gadget and very useful. Just another gadget of trickery for the spy side.
The spies already have a lot of tools to create diversions as it is. My point was that it's impossible to debate something when you can't even figure out a way to implement it without breaking the game. By default, that makes it a shitty idea.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 07, 2008, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
don't try to squeeze these things into a classic story mode where it just doesn't fit.
i'm also worried that too many gadgets/abilities/... could damage the gameplay.

Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
You want holograms and wireless hacking? Then make a different game mode for it!
i'd go for a different game mode or simply a new type of objective that allows wireless hacking with the normal ss.

i don't think that adding new gadgets (besides replacing flares with ph.nades) is necessary at all as variety will increase dramatically anyways with proper gadget balance.

if the devs insist on implementing new gadgets, i'd clearly go for a drone and a hologram-projector gun attachment.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 08, 2008, 12:09:55 AM
Quote from: Gawain on February 07, 2008, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
don't try to squeeze these things into a classic story mode where it just doesn't fit.
i'm also worried that too many gadgets/abilities/... could damage the gameplay.

Quote from: kronf on February 07, 2008, 09:55:56 PM
You want holograms and wireless hacking? Then make a different game mode for it!

i don't think that adding new gadgets (besides replacing flares with ph.nades) is necessary at all as variety will increase dramatically anyways with proper gadget balance.



If it was a good idea, I would like it. But a hologram is one of the dumber ideas I have heard of.

By my thinking, a spy is about secret stealth, not throwing a copy of himself on the ground, and running the hell away. Not only will this promote aggro, but it will also be useless.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 08, 2008, 12:56:36 AM
A boost for aggro and stealth ion.  You could use it to get a merc to chase it and lure him away from the objective, leaving you free to hack it.  As well as use it for assaulting mercs and confusing them.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 08, 2008, 02:27:21 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 08, 2008, 12:56:36 AM
A boost for aggro and stealth ion.  You could use it to get a merc to chase it and lure him away from the objective, leaving you free to hack it.  As well as use it for assaulting mercs and confusing them.

Chase it? Are you planning on some type of AI system? Also, after a few weeks, people would just resort to camping crucial points, instead of roaming.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 08, 2008, 06:29:20 AM
k.  Ion.  You obviously haven't been here long enough, or you haven't read the holopod thread, to know what we are talking about.  You can have the mimmic your movements.  Or, you can have pre-recorded movements that you can set the holograms to.  Meaning that you can make a spy run straight forward and you can place the holopod so he runs down a hallway or something.  Possibly you could go into a mode where YOU yourself would control the holopod.

Imagine this: 

You are on the staircase in pirates.  You set up a hologram on the fish tank facing the blue room entrance.  You see a merc walk in from tech room underneath the greek entrance.  You want to make a move toward the pirate console, but you can't because of the merc that recently walked in.  SO, you activate your holopod to a preset recording where he runs/rolls in a straight line.  You quickly shoot a snare to give the illusion that the holopod is making the sound by running.  The merc sees the spy and naturally chases after him.  The spy that he chases has run through the wall behind the couch and the merc doesn't know that yet, so he starts to search for the spy that he thought was real.  By the time he entered blue room you were already making a move for the console.  This would allow you to shave a few seconds off. 

Note that any smart person wouldn't just record a spy run in a straight line, but he would throw in some rolls and change the direction up a bit.


Hallucination nades on the other hand, would serve as a handy aggro tool, as well as a nifty escape gadget.  Think about it, throwing an H. Nade on the ground and the merc is confused as to which is the real one.  This would make it easier to escape and it would be a nice tool for attacking a disc as well as a bomb.  Possibly you could make it where if the spy who is carrying the disc throws a nade, the merc gets a whole bunch of blips on his radar instead of just one.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 08, 2008, 02:16:42 PM
I think that the spy has to be the smarter person in the game.
a spy needs to out think the merc.
come up with a good strategy to lure the merc out of his shell.
Here for the spy needs some gadgets to set the merc on the wrong path/foot

The hologram sounds like a good gadget to make a merc believe you're in the other room

a new granade for the spies will only work for more arrgo
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 02:19:57 PM
papa, drop the idea of hallucination nades, we have smoke and flash for that purpose. just nerf smoke and make flash work more reliable (the effect should last after going into zoom, too).

your example in aqua sucks because simply tazing the merc would be sufficient. i don't think that holopads are a good idea, i'd go for a projector on the gun or nothing.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 08, 2008, 05:02:12 PM
omg gawain.  To shave more seconds off the clock you need to have the merc in another room rather than just shocking him and getting maybe 2 seconds off the clock before you are screwed.  Plus if he's in another room you can even shock him when he comes back, giving you even more seconds unless a nade is fired.

My example in Aqua doesn't suck, you just didn't understand it.  Thats' fine.  And hallucination nades are still on the iffy side in my book.  We don't want to give too much of a boost to aggro, but since stealth will be such a viable option in this game why even choose to go aggro anymore?  Aggro needs some boosting imo.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door. it's sufficient because he can snipe the whole room from there, and he can be back sniping pirates in under 2s. there's no need to chase a fleeing spy any further because you won't be able to kill him unless he tazed you a moment ago and is so stupid to stay around. besides, the other merc can easily camp on the bridge because with one spy being in pirates the other one is quite unlikely to be in tech and even if so it's not that hard to defuse the bomb for the other one.
btw, still waiting for your aqua vid =)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Xris on February 08, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?

No its the "Tropical Fish Room" where the spies can wal above the cieling and the 2nd drop off for disk is behind the hack
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: FusionSlayer on February 08, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?

No its the "Tropical Fish Room" where the spies can wal above the cieling and the 2nd drop off for disk is behind the hack
Ahh .. yeah okay .. it's kind of misleading because it's actually a whole corridor, isn't it?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 08, 2008, 09:16:36 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: FusionSlayer on February 08, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?

No its the "Tropical Fish Room" where the spies can wal above the cieling and the 2nd drop off for disk is behind the hack
Ahh .. yeah okay .. it's kind of misleading because it's actually a whole corridor, isn't it?

Its the Aquarium.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 08, 2008, 09:16:36 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: FusionSlayer on February 08, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?

No its the "Tropical Fish Room" where the spies can wal above the cieling and the 2nd drop off for disk is behind the hack
Ahh .. yeah okay .. it's kind of misleading because it's actually a whole corridor, isn't it?

Its the Aquarium.
o_O The one where you can grab one disc?

whatever guys .. this is unnecessary anyways. It's not like I don't know that map. ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 08, 2008, 09:26:24 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 08, 2008, 09:16:36 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: FusionSlayer on February 08, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 08, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door.
Just a quick question: Do you mean 'greek temple' when you say blue room?

No its the "Tropical Fish Room" where the spies can wal above the cieling and the 2nd drop off for disk is behind the hack
Ahh .. yeah okay .. it's kind of misleading because it's actually a whole corridor, isn't it?

Its the Aquarium.
o_O The one where you can grab one disc?

whatever guys .. this is unnecessary anyways. It's not like I don't know that map. ;)

you don't....b00n
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Xris on February 08, 2008, 10:24:56 PM
lolz west ... b00n ... thats the best ever  :D
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 08, 2008, 11:50:28 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 08, 2008, 05:50:23 PM
dude, i really have np understanding your crappy tactics. they just wouldn't work against good players.
i bet you don't understand why, so here's a little explanation: a good merc wouldn't go any further into blue room than 3m away from the tech room door. it's sufficient because he can snipe the whole room from there, and he can be back sniping pirates in under 2s. there's no need to chase a fleeing spy any further because you won't be able to kill him unless he tazed you a moment ago and is so stupid to stay around. besides, the other merc can easily camp on the bridge because with one spy being in pirates the other one is quite unlikely to be in tech and even if so it's not that hard to defuse the bomb for the other one.
btw, still waiting for your aqua vid =)

Wow.  I was just giving an example.  Don't take that shit so seriously.  I was just giving a possible scenario.  And what if it was the last spy?  Obviously the merc isn't going to just sit there and watch the spy run away.  He's going to chase down the spy.  You don't know how it would work.  Holopods could be pretty convincing depending on how they are implemented.  Obviously maps aren't going to be designed like Aqua where you can afford to just camp in one room the whole match.  I'm guessing in PS the maps will be designed much better than aquarius so you have to chase down spies.   You can think of it like that. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 12:06:24 AM
Didn't you say that you were going to install CT on PC? I haven't seen you online yet.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 09, 2008, 12:11:46 AM
Yeah, I'm going to tonight sorry guys.  I've been busy with baseball and schoolwork.  If I don't get it installed tonight you guys can give me 100 virtual punches in the face each.   :D
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 02:25:58 AM
You were also going to make an Xbox video...

Holopods are dumb. What happens when your prerecorded vision runs into a wall? Or, when it hits a merc. Also, you would have to design specific responses for specific hallways. It would not work well.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 09, 2008, 02:39:53 AM
Dude.  Go read the other threads.  You'd have to place the holopod so that it wouldn't run into walls.  If it hits a wall it goes right through it.  That's why it wouldn't be so easy to use but it would take some smarts and good placement.  That's one way mercs can tell it from a real spy, if it goes through a wall.  And if it runs into a merc he is going to berserk and he's going to hit nothing.  You could even set up traps using this Ion.  Imagine recording a hologram so it just stays still or moves very slowly.  You could set it up in front of a doorway, then when a merc comes he is going to charge right through the spy, leaving his back turned giving you a nice neck grab.

As for my video, my capture card has been broken for quite awhile.  I want to get a good one now and not waste my money fixing an older model.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 03:07:43 AM
First of all, this gadget is a long way away from moderately realistic, and that is one reason why I don't like it.

Secondly, this hologram is a buffed snare. Vision is the sense you probably use the most while playing a game, and this is what it takes advantage of. I don't see any reason that a spy should have to lay a virtual spy down. I think you should either use snares for this type of use, or find a different route.

Thirdly, this is probably not even going to be possible in the Unreal Engine.

Fourth, setting and programming this thing is going to be a pain in the neck. You pretty much need a new program for every different hallway. Yes, I know all of these other ways for it to move and the like.

Fifth, this is going to be a big aggro tool. Yeah, I know, it can help stealth, but people are gonna spam this mother like no tomorrow when they are double teaming a merc.

Sixth, a good merc is going to realize what your program is, and just ignore any type of similar action after the first use.

Seventh, ambushes are going to be useless when a merc is checking every corner after being necked from seeing a fake spy run by once.

QuoteDude.  Go read the other threads.

I have. They will obviously be very hard to code, and generally make no sense.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 09, 2008, 04:08:03 AM
1.  Realism sucks.  Go outside if you want realism.  Actually, realism is awesome, just it's not needed in a game.  :D

2.  Aggro needs a boost right now imo, especially if maps are darker/boosted camo/nerfed merc visions.  Stealth would overpower the need for aggro.  It needs some sort of boost for it to be a viable strategy.

3.  your secondly point just proves my point, rather than yours.

4.  You would be able to carry maybe 5 pre recordings.  I don't think a merc will remember all 5 even if you use all of them.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 04:23:39 AM
1. In my opinion, this game is all about realistic gadgets. Maybe not gameplay, maybe not outfits, but gadgets. Every gadget right now has a possibility of being a spy gadget

2. Play the pc version. Until you do, you don't know aggro.

3. That the game won't even be able to run it? That definitely proves your point I guess?

4. Where would you record these recordings? A menu? Basically, you have 5 optimal spots to put this gadget down at. Otherwise, useless?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
Papa, a gadget has to:
-Have a clear purpose that is useful
-Have a unique function
-Be Effective in its goal
-Quick to deploy
-Easy to use
-Maintain and enhance the gameplay dynamic (ie, no rocket launchers for spies)

Your holopod idea is questionable for point 1; it fails at point 2 because there are other equipment items that the spy can use for diversion and confusion; it is questionable for point 3; and it fails miserably at points 4 and 5.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 09, 2008, 08:47:08 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
Papa, a gadget has to:
-Have a clear purpose that is useful ( How is diverting the mercs attention towards an imaginary image not useful? It serves as the vision diversion while snares are the sound diversion. Triggering the senses is great, and visually seeing a misrepresentation of the spy is an excellent diversion)
-Have a unique function (every gadget has its own useful diversion, so you can't really hate on the holo-pod here)
-Be Effective in its goal (goal is very clear)
-Quick to deploy (should be no smaller than a bullet. If you place it wrong, then its ineffective...which means you're a noob at placing it...you'll get better of course)
-Easy to use (all you have to do is select play or pause and then distribute)
-Maintain and enhance the gameplay dynamic (ie, no rocket launchers for spies) (its a hologram....not infinite ammo)

Your holopod idea is questionable for point 1; it fails at point 2 because there are other equipment items that the spy can use for diversion and confusion; it is questionable for point 3; and it fails miserably at points 4 and 5.

It doesn't fail on any level as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I just proved that it clears your checkpoints. Its something new, and doesn't take away from any other gadget. Thats what I would be more concerned about.

Remember the map Eden, where there were spy holograms and you could actually hide yourself in the spy? Talk about a great idea. Doesn't seem that hard to code at all really. Maybe the movement will be, but it only repeats.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 09, 2008, 10:57:18 AM
Tbh honest there is only 1 distinct distraction gadget, and that is the snare.  Why not have 2 distraction gadgets?  Holopods coupled with snares could make for an excellent distraction.  Plus there are more than 2 recon gadgets, more than 2 aggro gadgets, why not have atleast 2 distraction gadgets?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 11:42:07 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
-Easy to use
It should require some brain.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: BurningDeath on February 09, 2008, 12:34:22 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 11:42:07 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
-Easy to use
It should require some brain.
Not too much to start with, new players shouldn't have to make up complex tactics before they can use a gadget properly. That doesn't mean that you cannot come up with something complicated, but you don't have to. Hope you get me. ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 12:37:29 PM
burning death, i think noobs should be able to use all gadgets reasonably successfully against other noobs, but definitely not against better players. the steep learing curve of ct is not the problem, the lack of a good tutorial and a replay system is.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 11:42:07 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
-Easy to use
It should require some brain.
Let me clarify:

By easy to use, I mean in regards to control input. For example, to use a snare you press e --> right click. Done. Still requires brains, though, because you only have 5 of them, so you have to place them in areas where the mercs won't be able to shoot them and they are likely to give you maximum cover.

The way Papa is describing the hologram, you would have to set it up (e ---> right click). Then you would have to record an animation (movement/action keys). Then you would have to make sure that the hologram can play the animation without running into a strange object and giving away the fact that you're looking at a decoy (might have to re-deploy it). Then you have to get the hologram to play the animation (yet another control input).

That's way too many steps.

QuoteRemember the map Eden, where there were spy holograms and you could actually hide yourself in the spy? Talk about a great idea.
It's not as great as you think it is. All the mercs have to do is spam a bullet into the hologram everytime they see it. No red reticle, no spy.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 03:41:33 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 11:42:07 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:48:08 AM
-Easy to use
It should require some brain.
Let me clarify:

By easy to use, I mean in regards to control input. For example, to use a snare you press e --> right click. Done. Still requires brains, though, because you only have 5 of them, so you have to place them in areas where the mercs won't be able to shoot them and they are likely to give you maximum cover.

The way Papa is describing the hologram, you would have to set it up (e ---> right click). Then you would have to record an animation (movement/action keys). Then you would have to make sure that the hologram can play the animation without running into a strange object and giving away the fact that you're looking at a decoy (might have to re-deploy it). Then you have to get the hologram to play the animation (yet another control input).

That's way too many steps.
Or you could have pre-recorded patterns.

Quote
QuoteRemember the map Eden, where there were spy holograms and you could actually hide yourself in the spy? Talk about a great idea.
It's not as great as you think it is. All the mercs have to do is spam a bullet into the hologram everytime they see it. No red reticle, no spy.
well, that's another point: Should the reticle even turn red? I think it's a cheap: You can just spam into corners, for example, to see if there's spies. The mercs should have to actually check for spies, not just spam bullets everywhere.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:13:20 PM
QuoteShould the reticle even turn red?
yes.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:13:20 PM
QuoteShould the reticle even turn red?
yes.
Why?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 09, 2008, 04:39:14 PM
...it would't be logical...
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:13:20 PM
QuoteShould the reticle even turn red?
yes.
Why?
Because hit detection is a good thing. Nothing was more frustrating than trying to snipe in PT and not knowing whether or not you were actually hitting the spy.

Also, you don't have to spam bullets in corners...you have a flashlight, laser, MT, EMF, and flares to help you see people in the dark. Hiding in dark corners is generally not a good idea.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 09, 2008, 04:39:14 PM
...it would't be logical...

Neither would a holopod?

The red cursor should be there, because you shouldn't have to charge into a picture to see if it is real. Even if this doesn't make it into the game, it should still be there, for the sake of telling how many times you have hit him.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 04:13:20 PM
QuoteShould the reticle even turn red?
yes.
Why?
Because hit detection is a good thing. Nothing was more frustrating than trying to snipe in PT and not knowing whether or not you were actually hitting the spy.

Also, you don't have to spam bullets in corners...you have a flashlight, laser, MT, EMF, and flares to help you see people in the dark. Hiding in dark corners is generally not a good idea.
Each of those come at a price. There could be hit detection when sniping only, though.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 04:56:03 PM
The red cursor should be there, because you shouldn't have to charge into a picture to see if it is real. Even if this doesn't make it into the game, it should still be there, for the sake of telling how many times you have hit him.
Or you could just shoot him in the head. If he doesn't die, and you know how to aim, you'll know it's a hologram.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 05:48:50 PM
Tell me why it is bad, other than because this gadget has a major flaw?

I just thought of this. How the hell is this thing gonna be able to be shot? You are going to be watching a recording, that could be running a very far distance away from the source. How do you find the source?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 09, 2008, 06:02:22 PM
I meant it wouldn't be logical the reticle to turn red when you hit the hologram -.-
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 06:10:44 PM
QuoteTell me why it is bad, other than because this gadget has a major flaw?
This is what I said in the beginning. No one has even figured out a way to implement the gadget into the game, but somehow westfall thinks that they have.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
why does everyone respond to papa's holopod suggestion but noone to my hologram-projector on the ss? it would work easier and actually would be balanced:

-you don't have to record anything, you just aim and the hologram follows your aim
-it requires one spy to sit there use the gadget so its aggro capabilities are minimal, but it's teamplay capabilities are great
-no bullet anywhere which would render the holopods totally useless for stealth players and for quick use
-limited range: you can't create a hologram at the other end of main hall (factory) for instance

i'm not yet sure about the differences to a real spy. maybe it should cast no shadow and the further it's away the the more distortion there is.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 09, 2008, 06:57:34 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 09, 2008, 06:10:44 PM
QuoteTell me why it is bad, other than because this gadget has a major flaw?
This is what I said in the beginning. No one has even figured out a way to implement the gadget into the game, but somehow westfall thinks that they have.

lol...no i dont. I don't think it would be hard to.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 07:09:09 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
why does everyone respond to papa's holopod suggestion but noone to my hologram-projector on the ss?

I'm sorry, I'll give you more attention next time.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Kubanator on February 09, 2008, 10:45:45 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
why does everyone respond to papa's holopod suggestion but noone to my hologram-projector on the ss? it would work easier and actually would be balanced:

-you don't have to record anything, you just aim and the hologram follows your aim
-it requires one spy to sit there use the gadget so its aggro capabilities are minimal, but it's teamplay capabilities are great
-no bullet anywhere which would render the holopods totally useless for stealth players and for quick use
-limited range: you can't create a hologram at the other end of main hall (factory) for instance

i'm not yet sure about the differences to a real spy. maybe it should cast no shadow and the further it's away the the more distortion there is.
Beacuse, it cna be instantly created, move infinatly fast, and can screw with every merc at once.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 09, 2008, 10:48:13 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
why does everyone respond to papa's holopod suggestion but noone to my hologram-projector on the ss? it would work easier and actually would be balanced:

-you don't have to record anything, you just aim and the hologram follows your aim
-it requires one spy to sit there use the gadget so its aggro capabilities are minimal, but it's teamplay capabilities are great
-no bullet anywhere which would render the holopods totally useless for stealth players and for quick use
-limited range: you can't create a hologram at the other end of main hall (factory) for instance

i'm not yet sure about the differences to a real spy. maybe it should cast no shadow and the further it's away the the more distortion there is.

Honestly I think it would suck. The spy wouldn't move realistically if you controlled him with the gun, so the merc could pretty much know it was a holo spy. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 09, 2008, 10:48:29 PM
Quote from: Kubanator on February 09, 2008, 10:45:45 PM
Beacuse, it cna be instantly created, move infinatly fast, and can screw with every merc at once.
He never said it can be instantly created or move infinitely fast. And what do you mean by "screw with every merc at one?"
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 11:20:08 PM
The only way either of these gadgets could work is if the spy stood still. Other than that, it fails in every regard.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 10, 2008, 12:22:00 AM
if one moves the hologram spy insanely fast it's pretty obvious it's a hologram, isn't it?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Kubanator on February 10, 2008, 12:31:21 AM
Quote from: Gawain on February 09, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
why does everyone respond to papa's holopod suggestion but noone to my hologram-projector on the ss? it would work easier and actually would be balanced:

-you don't have to record anything, you just aim and the hologram follows your aim
-it requires one spy to sit there use the gadget so its aggro capabilities are minimal, but it's teamplay capabilities are great
-no bullet anywhere which would render the holopods totally useless for stealth players and for quick use
-limited range: you can't create a hologram at the other end of main hall (factory) for instance

i'm not yet sure about the differences to a real spy. maybe it should cast no shadow and the further it's away the the more distortion there is.

QuoteHe never said it can be instantly created or move infinitely fast. And what do you mean by "screw with every merc at one?"

It follows your aim. Therfore if you have a mouse, you can aim anywhere. Meaning you can have one merc charge at your holo, then instantly move it to the next merc. And IDK where I pulled instant from, but I assumed that it would not take very long to deploy, as most gadgets.

Quoteif one moves the hologram spy insanely fast it's pretty obvious it's a hologram, isn't it?

He holds it still, then once it's reaveled that it's a holo, he moves it. And he can keep on doing that.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 10, 2008, 12:43:54 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on February 10, 2008, 12:31:21 AMIt follows your aim. Therfore if you have a mouse, you can aim anywhere. Meaning you can have one merc charge at your holo, then instantly move it to the next merc. And IDK where I pulled instant from, but I assumed that it would not take very long to deploy, as most gadgets.
Or it could walk towards the point where you aim. And in order to fool both mercs, they would have to be in the same room, so it's pretty limited and you would be able to anyways.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 10, 2008, 03:03:28 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 05:48:50 PM
Tell me why it is bad, other than because this gadget has a major flaw?

I just thought of this. How the hell is this thing gonna be able to be shot? You are going to be watching a recording, that could be running a very far distance away from the source. How do you find the source?


Umm, idk, emf?  If you find out that it is fake then why the hell do you need to find out where it came from?  Other than the fact that there could be a spy in that area.  And if you are close to the hologram you are probably close to a spy anyways. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 10, 2008, 07:46:42 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 11:20:08 PM
The only way either of these gadgets could work is if the spy stood still. Other than that, it fails in every regard.

Not really. With a play and pause option you can do 2 things:

Pause option - Just shows spy, standing/crouched with back turned or whatever....no movement. Great distraction imo.

Play option - Shouldn't be ridiculous because its going to have to cycle yea? It should be a small motion of the spy crouched, looking around....maybe taking a few steps (crouched), but not diving (if you know whats good or you)

Gaiwan, I've been thinking about the SS omitting the hologram. It does seem like a workable idea, but I would rather it be a diversion for the spy to get far from. If its a hologram and the merc shoots at it without seeing his cross-hair turn red....he will instantly come to the conclusion that the spy is close by and using this gadget, which means his mate might be close by too, or there was a lag disconnect. Either way, the first option will be what hes going for until there is a kill or a d/c. The hologhram coming from SS gives away your position and possibly your partners.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 12:50:38 PM
I like the idea of a emitter on the SS.
But as some of you allready said is that the holo-spy would move kinda weird.

a holopod that needs to pre-record seems like a lot of work.
the gadget needs to work instently.
you dont always have time to set things up,
i found my self a lot of times with SCCT you have to go with whe flow.

My suggestion is to combine both ideas.
Shoot a holo-pod with your SS like you would any granade.
Then use your aim to set a marker that the holo-spy needs to walk
(1 click for crouch, 2 clicks for run)
this way you have a easy setup
and the holo-pod can only move at the preset speeds.

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.quicknet.nl%2Fqn%2Fprive%2Fpm.groot%2FPS_Holopod.jpg&hash=eb96b75ead06b1bd4cbea18197bd122963de976e)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 10, 2008, 01:05:23 PM
i hate the idea of pads because you can't use it in open areas as it would be ridiculous easy to find the pod. there's already the hiding game with snares, cams and - to some extend - with bullets.

with pods you could also create some holograms and then use them to play aggro, but with the projector-attachment one spy can't play aggro while creating the hologram.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 01:15:34 PM
if you set the pod that i can only move when the spy sets the target point a keeps focust on that.
when drop out of aim/focus the pod stands still and will dissapear after a few seconds.
the spy gets these few seconds to regain focus
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 10, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 12:50:38 PM
I like the idea of a emitter on the SS.
But as some of you allready said is that the holo-spy would move kinda weird.

a holopod that needs to pre-record seems like a lot of work.
the gadget needs to work instently.
you dont always have time to set things up,
i found my self a lot of times with SCCT you have to go with whe flow.

My suggestion is to combine both ideas.
Shoot a holo-pod with your SS like you would any granade.
Then use your aim to set a marker that the holo-spy needs to walk
(1 click for crouch, 2 clicks for run)
this way you have a easy setup
and the holo-pod can only move at the preset speeds.

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.quicknet.nl%2Fqn%2Fprive%2Fpm.groot%2FPS_Holopod.jpg&hash=eb96b75ead06b1bd4cbea18197bd122963de976e)


your idea is already what the idea is. you record the hologram be4you even start playing.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 10, 2008, 06:36:29 PM
So everyone just waits for you on the loading screen?? lame.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 10, 2008, 06:58:16 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 10, 2008, 03:03:28 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 09, 2008, 05:48:50 PM
Tell me why it is bad, other than because this gadget has a major flaw?

I just thought of this. How the hell is this thing gonna be able to be shot? You are going to be watching a recording, that could be running a very far distance away from the source. How do you find the source?


Umm, idk, emf?  If you find out that it is fake then why the hell do you need to find out where it came from?  Other than the fact that there could be a spy in that area.  And if you are close to the hologram you are probably close to a spy anyways. 

Too shut the thing off. If I am a merc, I would shoot bullets, cams, and snares, so this hologram would not be any different.

QuotePlay option - Shouldn't be ridiculous because its going to have to cycle yea? It should be a small motion of the spy crouched, looking around....maybe taking a few steps (crouched), but not diving (if you know whats good or you)

You would need a special animation for each hallway.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 10, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 12:50:38 PM


your idea is already what the idea is. you record the hologram be4you even start playing.

you want to record before the game?
how do you want to change the holopod on the fly
every game asks for a different aprouch, or do you always play the same game over and over again?


launch the pod where you want
mark the spot where it should go to and it moves
(like a RTS game, click where the unit needs to go and it moves there)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 10, 2008, 11:50:30 PM
There are plenty of suggestions that would work for the holopod.

- Record your own and have a list of 5 recordings to choose from when deployed.  You wouldn't need a unique recording for every hallway.  Instead you would just have to record so that the recordings work for most scenarios and places.

- Control it yourself.

- Have it mimic your own movements.

- Have the holopod go to a set point

I'm sure there are other suggestions that would work. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 11, 2008, 04:54:15 AM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 10, 2008, 06:36:29 PM
So everyone just waits for you on the loading screen?? lame.

No. You do this before you even log on, possibly as an option (in the tutorial section?). If you want to change it, you should have to go back to the main screen and have to preset it there.

Quote from: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 10, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: mentalmars on February 10, 2008, 12:50:38 PM


your idea is already what the idea is. you record the hologram be4you even start playing.

you want to record before the game?
how do you want to change the holopod on the fly
every game asks for a different aprouch, or do you always play the same game over and over again?


launch the pod where you want
mark the spot where it should go to and it moves
(like a RTS game, click where the unit needs to go and it moves there)

It should have a scroll menu as you go to plant or shoot (menu open as gadget is scrolled over). Options in scroll menu: preset 1, preset 2, preset 3, paused motion crouch, pause motion stand (can be condensed).
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 05:30:17 AM
Okay, seriously, this gadget is idiotic. If you think for a second that holograms are a good idea, you're a fucking moron. The fact that this has not only been discussed before on other threads, but also has now been given more than 4 pages of credence here makes me want to kill puppies. It's time to move on, and it's time to spend your time trying to think of something that actually could work to improve the game.

This public service announcement was brought to you by Spekkio, common sense, and the letter Q.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 11, 2008, 05:31:09 AM
Controlling it would be useless, because you would have to be somewhere close to it.

If everything works out, and this somehow makes it, it could be overpowered in some situations. If you plan it just right, it could go around obstacles just like a normal spy would. But, other than that one time, it would be a waste of a gadget, that could be used for cams or bullets, which help with your overall objective.

Thanks Spekkio, that basically sums up what I have been trying to say all along.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 05:35:12 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 05:30:17 AM
Okay, seriously, this gadget is idiotic. If you think for a second that holograms are a good idea, you're a fucking moron. The fact that this has not only been discussed before on other threads, but also has now been given more than 4 pages of credence here makes me want to kill puppies. It's time to move on, and it's time to spend your time trying to think of something that actually could work to improve the game.

This public service announcement was brought to you by Spekkio, common sense, and the letter Q.
QFE

For real...
People come up with some dumb gadget ideas on these forums.

This gadget is impractical as hell, and I can't picture anyone being fooled by it after the first week of play.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 05:36:08 AM
Seriously, I think that the mods should start trying to move discussions along in some way or another, and also keep threads on-topic. When there's a thread on a topic with 8 pages of crap and nowhere near a plausible plan to adapt it into the game, it's obviously a terrible idea and it's time to lock. Developers can't even read threads anymore because by the time they do, the discussion has veered WAYYYY off topic and they just don't have the time to wade through all the crap, so any good ideas from it go to waste anyway. If a developer clicks on a thread about a "merc confusion gadget," they shouldn't be reading an in-depth discussion on another topic.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 11, 2008, 05:40:51 AM
I say screw new gadgets for now, and just think of ways to balance and improve the older ones.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 05:41:13 AM
That's already been discussed to death. I have nothing against new gadgets, but most of the ideas coming from these forums, quite frankly, suck.

Spy gadgets need to focus around:

-Evading mercs
-Stalling mercs
-Remaining hidden from mercs

Merc gadgets need to focus around:

-Finding spies
-Killing spies

The challenge is to find something that is useful and unique within that criteria, rather than posting every idea you think of just because you think it's da bomb.

Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 11, 2008, 06:10:29 AM
A holo pod doesn't seem that bad of an idea actually. It's quite smart and clever. It matched everything you wanted it to be/do in your checklist. It stalls mercs, and helps you to remain hidden from mercs. If you're so angry with the holo pod idea, then why not just be able to have a cam that projects a picture on the wall.

All you did was flame. Congrats for being that guy. Winner for least common sense award. Winner for cocky award.

Impractical. What happened to the whole "stay away from realism" and "this is based in the future" aspect.

Post some new shit if you're sick of it. Maybe a new merc confusion gadget if you're so sick of this one. I'm not stopping you. No need to act like a douche though.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: AgentX_003 on February 11, 2008, 06:27:42 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 11, 2008, 06:10:29 AM
A holo pod doesn't seem that bad of an idea actually. It's quite smart and clever. It matched everything you wanted it to be/do in your checklist. It stalls mercs, and helps you to remain hidden from mercs. If you're so angry with the holo pod idea, then why not just be able to have a cam that projects a picture on the wall.

All you did was flame. Congrats for being that guy. Winner for least common sense award. Winner for cocky award.

Impractical. What happened to the whole "stay away from realism" and "this is based in the future" aspect.

Post some new shit if you're sick of it. Maybe a new merc confusion gadget if you're so sick of this one. I'm not stopping you. No need to act like a douche though.


I agree with west on this , you have no regard for others ideas you just have your head up your ass and never have taken the time to pause and think about what your saying before you say it..

quite frankly spekkio ,I"ll say this  there are times where your on point , but thinking your right all the time isnt healthy and it seems its all over for you now , cause your not Mr. Right =/ in this circumstance
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 11, 2008, 06:51:11 AM
He was expressing his opinion. He did take the time to think, because he posted on many of these pages.

It isn't a good idea, and people have tried to say that. The idea needs lots of work, implementation would be very hard, and there is no clear way on how to use it.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 11, 2008, 07:29:17 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 05:30:17 AM
Okay, seriously, this gadget is idiotic. If you think for a second that holograms are a good idea, you're a fucking moron. The fact that this has not only been discussed before on other threads, but also has now been given more than 4 pages of credence here makes me want to kill puppies. It's time to move on, and it's time to spend your time trying to think of something that actually could work to improve the game.

This public service announcement was brought to you by Spekkio, common sense, and the letter Q.

THIS JUST IN

Reports of Spekkio's opinions being facts have just surfaced.  Apparently, if you don't think like Spekkio, you are an idiot.  Back to you Papa.
In all seriousness, it's not a bad idea.  You just seem to think it's a bad idea.  That doesn't mean that it can't become something good.  Try suggesting things to make it better instead of going:  "ZOMG DIS IDEAS IZ STUPIDZ AND IF YOU DONT AGREE WIT ME YOU ARE A RETARD!!!1!1"  Come on now.

Ion, suggest things to make it better instead of bashing it ffs.  It could work.  We've stated many things that have explained why it would be a good idea.  Did you even read them?  Or did everytime did you skip what we said and say the same thing over again?  Ask me why it would be a good idea.  I'll answer.  Tell me it will be a bad idea.  I will counter it.  Don't just say the idea sucks, please.  You can't have a discussion like that.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 07:48:09 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 11, 2008, 06:10:29 AM
Impractical. What happened to the whole "stay away from realism" and "this is based in the future" aspect.

...In the context of gameplay, this gadget is impractical.
I couldn't see anyone using it after the game matures.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 11, 2008, 07:49:47 AM
Why?  The hologram looks just like a real spy.  You'll never be able to tell it's fake by first glance, mr mic.  No matter how much people play the game.  It's not going to become novelty/useless/obvious.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 08:09:02 AM
If you use it like a projector from your gun, you still need a line of sight to the area you are beaming it.
You give yourself away in like .02 seconds once the merc realizes he's looking at a decoy.

You know... because it doesn't immediately stand up, shock you, throw a flash bang, and roll into a vent like a real player.

Humans are really good at pattern recognition, and it wouldn't be hard to instantly trace the projection origin  based on the movement pattern.

I cant imagine anyone being able to control a projection with enough precision to not look incredibly goofy to any observer. Especially when dealing with high projection angles, where tiny movements are highly amplified in a single axis. You would almost have to be facing head on with the surface you wanted to project onto, and fairly close, too.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 11, 2008, 08:23:21 AM
As an observer, I think it would look awesome and just be one more thing that makes PS more diverse.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 08:24:40 AM
QuotePost some new shit if you're sick of it. Maybe a new merc confusion gadget if you're so sick of this one.
I have posted plenty of new stuff that I think would be beneficial to the game. I will not post a "new confusion gadget" when A) I think that the spies have enough confusion capability as it is and B) I can't think of a good one.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 11, 2008, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 08:24:40 AM
QuotePost some new shit if you're sick of it. Maybe a new merc confusion gadget if you're so sick of this one.
I have posted plenty of new stuff that I think would be beneficial to the game. I will not post a "new confusion gadget" when A) I think that the spies have enough confusion capability as it is and B) I can't think of a good one.

1 or 2 new gadgets would be beneficial to PS...especially if they are going with your 5 slot system.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 08:28:47 AM
New gadgets could be beneficial to the game; however, my point is that I am not going to clog the forum with idiotic ideas just for the sake of adding shit. If I think of something that would actually enhance the game experience, I will post it, as I have in the past.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 08:29:40 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 11, 2008, 08:23:21 AM
As an observer, I think it would look awesome and just be one more thing that makes PS more diverse.

What do you even mean?

I just logically explained why this gadget wouldn't fool anyone, but it should just go in anyway because it's a new gadget that looks "awesome" and somehow diversifies the game?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 11, 2008, 08:37:29 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 08:29:40 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 11, 2008, 08:23:21 AM
As an observer, I think it would look awesome and just be one more thing that makes PS more diverse.

What do you even mean?

I just logically explained why this gadget wouldn't fool anyone, but it should just go in anyway because it's a new gadget that looks "awesome" and somehow diversifies the game?

Notice how I said as an observer. In the game, I bet you it would fool you far more than 1 time if used well. I say no to the projection gun, and just the cam that shows the projection. Or....a holo pod. Kind of like the thing you would see in Star Wars from R2D2 when he transmitted messages. Yea, really unrealistic....but both appealing and tactical.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 08:28:47 AM
New gadgets could be beneficial to the game; however, my point is that I am not going to clog the forum with idiotic ideas just for the sake of adding shit. If I think of something that would actually enhance the game experience, I will post it, as I have in the past.

The idea isn't idiotic, yet again. Thats all you've got on it. You think its not going to work, when it will....and against you at one point if implemented.

but...you guys are right, if it makes you feel good.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 11, 2008, 08:45:25 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on February 11, 2008, 08:09:02 AMI cant imagine anyone being able to control a projection with enough precision to not look incredibly goofy to any observer. Especially when dealing with high projection angles, where tiny movements are highly amplified in a single axis. You would almost have to be facing head on with the surface you wanted to project onto, and fairly close, too.
Spy marks point A.

Projected image is spawned at point A.

Spy marks point B.

Projected image moves towards point B in a realistic speed.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 11, 2008, 11:47:09 AM
Yeah, but the projected image MUST be within fov and range of the spy using it.
Also, the hologram should disappear around corners.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 11, 2008, 01:36:52 PM
how many of you got set on the wrong path by a alarm snare?

i thing many ppl always look first when the indicator says that there's movement coming for a direction.
after a few seconds you discover that it's a alarm snare
1) you ignore the signal
2) you remove the snare

Looking at the hologram.
if you pick up a small glimes of a spy going somewhere you always try to engage him
or look where he is going to cut him of.
i think this is a good way to create a opritunitie

it does need a easy setup.
something like click point 'A' click point 'B' and it moves from  A to B

suggestions a way to set up your own way point (for A -> B -> C -> D)

a other suggestion is fixed waypoints at corners
if you let your hologram walk to the end of a room it wil automaticly walk around the corner.

Let a hologram fade out when ending animation, like a spy is using his camosuit
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: AgentX_003 on February 11, 2008, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: mentalmars on February 11, 2008, 01:36:52 PM
how many of you got set on the wrong path by a alarm snare?

i thing many ppl always look first when the indicator says that there's movement coming for a direction.
after a few seconds you discover that it's a alarm snare
1) you ignore the signal
2) you remove the snare

Looking at the hologram.
if you pick up a small glimes of a spy going somewhere you always try to engage him
or look where he is going to cut him of.
i think this is a good way to create a opritunitie

it does need a easy setup.
something like click point 'A' click point 'B' and it moves from  A to B

suggestions a way to set up your own way point (for A -> B -> C -> D)

a other suggestion is fixed waypoints at corners
if you let your hologram walk to the end of a room it wil automaticly walk around the corner.

Let a hologram fade out when ending animation, like a spy is using his camosuit

the only thing is  the holo pod should be the size of a dime for portablity / makes it harder for the merc to find.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 11, 2008, 05:15:03 PM
With 5 slots new gadgets are needed.  If not, you could just take most of the gadgets, and that's stupid.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 11, 2008, 08:14:37 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 11, 2008, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: mentalmars on February 11, 2008, 01:36:52 PM

the only thing is  the holo pod should be the size of a dime for portablity / makes it harder for the merc to find.

i think the pod should not be visable
you are trying to fool a merc.
if you see a huge disc flying as merc, would you be foold by it.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.forbiddenplanet.com%2Fimage%2Fdetail%2F1485110d.jpg&hash=45b8583655379ec1aa9026e8d1e01c28f1f1f102)

i only use the word pod so it's a device that creates the image
creating a hologram out of thin air would be difficelt ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 11, 2008, 11:32:07 PM
lmao  perfect!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 04:55:07 AM
You think it's a good gadget, I think it has no good qualities. We both have opinions.

There is nothing to suggest to make it better. It has absolutely no potential or use, and I don't like it. Go ahead and keep defending it, but I don't like it.

Don't try and tell us to think of ways to make it better, because this idea has no possibility of becoming better. People become used to things, just like the snare, so this would quickly become useless.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 12, 2008, 05:25:32 AM
This is getting a little out of hand and becoming ridiculous.  It appears that a lot of you accept gadget ideas just for the sake of adding new gadgets.  The whole idea of having this hologram do all of these things is just plain stupid.  Either change the way the hologram works or just drop the idea entirely. 

Mimicking human action is going to be really tough, unless we record HUNDREDS of different moving patterns to make this shitty gadget more believable.  These moving patterns will have to involve lots of different animations or people will recognize a hologram too quickly and render this gadget useless.  Not only does that sound like a huge waste of time and effort, but simply idiotic when the team has to do a hell of a lot more before this mod ever sees release.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 12, 2008, 07:04:30 AM
Quote from: Vega on February 12, 2008, 05:25:32 AM
This is getting a little out of hand and becoming ridiculous.  It appears that a lot of you accept gadget ideas just for the sake of adding new gadgets.  The whole idea of having this hologram do all of these things is just plain stupid.  Either change the way the hologram works or just drop the idea entirely. 

Mimicking human action is going to be really tough, unless we record HUNDREDS of different moving patterns to make this shitty gadget more believable.  These moving patterns will have to involve lots of different animations or people will recognize a hologram too quickly and render this gadget useless.  Not only does that sound like a huge waste of time and effort, but simply idiotic when the team has to do a hell of a lot more before this mod ever sees release.

You must not have read the past few pages, so I'm not going to delve back in.

Welcome to a forum, where ideas are being posted because we don't have much else to talk about. You are seeing varying opinion here because its....a forum. The team does have much to do still, but that doesn't mean we cease all discussion. There are other threads. This thread you have obviously not read that much because everything is clearly stated. You either like it or don't like it. Doesn't mean you have to come in on a high horse and say "THEEZ THINGS AR3 B4D B3C4US3 M41 0P1N1ON FTVV!!!"

Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 12, 2008, 07:31:05 AM
Hey now, I gave a reason behind my "this idea is stupid" so YOU JUST WATCH YOUR MOUTH, WESTFALL.  DUN GIVE ME ANY LIP 'FOR I RECKON I GON BEAT YOU AGAIN, BOY.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 12, 2008, 07:48:58 AM
Keep the sclamers stuff at sclamers please.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 12, 2008, 07:56:29 AM
Quote from: Vega on February 12, 2008, 07:31:05 AM
Hey now, I gave a reason behind my "this idea is stupid" so YOU JUST WATCH YOUR MOUTH, WESTFALL.  DUN GIVE ME ANY LIP 'FOR I RECKON I GON BEAT YOU AGAIN, BOY.

Reasons that have no meaning if you look back at the previous pages.  This wouldn't take much work.  No more than how much time optic camo takes to make probably.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 09:02:21 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 04:55:07 AM
You think it's a good gadget, I think it has no good qualities. We both have opinions.

There is nothing to suggest to make it better. It has absolutely no potential or use, and I don't like it. Go ahead and keep defending it, but I don't like it.

Don't try and tell us to think of ways to make it better, because this idea has no possibility of becoming better. People become used to things, just like the snare, so this would quickly become useless.
Good work! This was such an intelligent and thought-through argument, I must worship your intellect. What have you done to grace the earth with such heavenly reason and, not to mention, common sense?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 12, 2008, 01:55:08 PM
we dont al have to agree with all the gadgets.
some pll like to take the spy bullet other choose the hartbeat sensor becase it doesnt limit you to 5 scans
but the bullet has other +Points
i dont see the point of a photonic granade, why not just shoot a normal granade.
a buddy of mine loves flares, i dont see why.
But hey if it works for him.

everyone likes different things
everyone likes to take different gadgets becase the one or the other will fit him better.
the gadgets just need to work.
When i started playing SCCT when it came out everyone wanted the camosuit and a pack of granades
no one used the alarmsnare, but i did and very effectively becase no one played that way anymore.
playing styles change.
yes after a few games you know where most ppl place there mines
but then ppl start placing them on other spots.

the same will be for the hologram
at first you will be foold, after a few weeks you know a bit better.
then thing start to shift ....
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 03:25:54 PM
Quote from: Vega on February 12, 2008, 05:25:32 AM
This is getting a little out of hand and becoming ridiculous.  It appears that a lot of you accept gadget ideas just for the sake of adding new gadgets.  The whole idea of having this hologram do all of these things is just plain stupid.  Either change the way the hologram works or just drop the idea entirely. 

Mimicking human action is going to be really tough, unless we record HUNDREDS of different moving patterns to make this shitty gadget more believable.  These moving patterns will have to involve lots of different animations or people will recognize a hologram too quickly and render this gadget useless.  Not only does that sound like a huge waste of time and effort, but simply idiotic when the team has to do a hell of a lot more before this mod ever sees release.
Vega is wise.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2008, 07:56:29 AMReasons that have no meaning if you look back at the previous pages.  This wouldn't take much work.  No more than how much time optic camo takes to make probably.
Are you a programmer? A modeller? Anyone on the PS team?

If you answered "no" to all of the above, you should stfu about how much time it would take to implement something.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 04:21:17 PM
Mines are a good example of how it would work.

It's a huge beeping, flashing thing on the wall that does literally nothing to hide its presence - yet people keep using them and people keep dying on them. Even though the locations are all used to death.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 12, 2008, 05:08:13 PM
Good example.  And Spekkio, I don't have to be a dev to predict how long something would take.  I can predict all I would like.  And think about it, all the game has to do is render a recording of a spy moving.  The thing that projects the hologram would look just like a spy bullet.  So, that's already done.  Not much work I can see, any dev want to elaborate on how much work this would take?

People won't become used to it, how you come to that conclusion is beyond me Vega.  It looks just like a spy.  EXACT.  You won't be able to tell apart a hologram from a real spy at first glance, no matter who you are, or what graphics card you have.  Yet, somehow you predict that people would just see it and know that it isn't real?
Nope, doesn't work that way Vega.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 06:06:39 PM
QuoteAnd Spekkio, I don't have to be a dev to predict how long something would take.  I can predict all I would like.
Sure you could, but doing so makes you look like a presumptious moron because in reality you have no clue how much work it would take.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 06:22:58 PM
The optic camo would be a shader (at least in source, assuming it is the same). This would have to be implemented completely different.

Mines are effective because they blow shit up. This does nothing but walk in front of a merc. While it could be an exact copy of a spy, it doesn't have any purpose other than to distract the merc, so then it really has no purpose. Snares distract the merc and mess his reticle up, which is another use.

Having this gadget be remote controlled like a car is stupid. It would make no sense, because you could get no where while you are playing cat and mouse with a merc. Having to point where you want it to go is stupid, because the merc will assume you are in the same room, and unleash mass ownage. Not really sure why you would even possibly assume these are good ideas.

What happens when you shoot this on the wall or ceiling? Does it automatically find the floor? Yet another implementations by coders. It means pretty much nothing gameplay wise, but would take more coding time.

Using this gadget would immediately tips the mercs off, because normal players run and shock the mercs when they see them. They don't keep right on walking. Also, mercs can just shoot it, see its not real, and forget about it.

My suggestion is try and think of ideas to improve snares instead of campaigning for useless and hard gadgets.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 12, 2008, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 06:22:58 PM
because normal players run and shock the mercs when they see them.
In CT. Also, why let the merc know you are there when he hasn't seen you yet??
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 08:34:33 PM
I'll give an example of how it'd be useful:

You're a merc camping in Pirates in Aquarius. You catch a glimpse of a spy diving towards the vent in what you guys call the blue room. You presume that the spy went into the vent, so you keep a close eye on it/shoot nades there. Since it was a hologram, it will give the spies an upper hand.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 12, 2008, 09:24:15 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 06:06:39 PM
Vega is wise.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 06:06:39 PM
QuoteAnd Spekkio, I don't have to be a dev to predict how long something would take.  I can predict all I would like.
Sure you could, but doing so makes you look like a presumptious moron because in reality you have no clue how much work it would take.

Its presumptuous. You shouldn't correct other people's spelling when you need to consider your own.

Vega isn't wise (though I love him). He just had an opinion. Doesn't mean it is wise by any means. Just because you agree with his statement which consists of errors...many errors, doesn't make him wise. Also, Papa doesn't look like a presumptuous moron. If he got more feedback on the idea (which isn't necessary I guess since PS is so far out) it would help to see how hard this would be to code/program/animate. Doesn't mean hes a moron. Only one I'm seeing as a moron is the bumbling moron...aka you. Everything you try and state always has this arrogant taint to it. I'm sure you don't always mean to offend, then again sometimes you do, but that is what most of your comments come off as. You're just one more person who has played the Splinter Cell series.....furthest from a god. Others have just as much experience, so because you feel that you can justify downplaying an idea because "I, Spekkio, say this gadget will not work because I said so" instead of giving anything rationally justified, yes...rationally justified, you're not helping the idea be productive into getting nixed or helping it. You're just babbling. As far as I can tell, you are being a presumptuous moron in assuming how a hologram wouldn't affect the stealth aspect of PS.

Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 06:22:58 PM
Having this gadget be remote controlled like a car is stupid. It would make no sense, because you could get no where while you are playing cat and mouse with a merc. Having to point where you want it to go is stupid, because the merc will assume you are in the same room, and unleash mass ownage. Not really sure why you would even possibly assume these are good ideas.

What happens when you shoot this on the wall or ceiling? Does it automatically find the floor? Yet another implementations by coders. It means pretty much nothing gameplay wise, but would take more coding time.

Using this gadget would immediately tips the mercs off, because normal players run and shock the mercs when they see them. They don't keep right on walking. Also, mercs can just shoot it, see its not real, and forget about it.

My suggestion is try and think of ideas to improve snares instead of campaigning for useless and hard gadgets.

The gadget wouldn't be remote controlled. It would be shot and either play the hologram or freeze the frame of which ever preset you chose. If you shoot it at a wall or ceiling it may not work. It has to be shot to a right spot, unless the devs can make it adjust automatically to wherever it was shot. Of course it will take time to code and animate. We are a long way out still from even getting a beta, so calm down. The gadget doesn't tip the merc off. If you always give away your position because you get scared when a merc is near, well....you're dead. I don't just run up and shock mercs for the hell of it. You do if you're an aggro player. If a merc shoots it and sees its not real, well...hes already off the track of the real spy, now isn't he, which means there was a diversion.

Snares already have the suggestion(s) for being better and possibly having added features. While this gadget is probably really hard to code, it would be one of the better new ideas thats implemented into PS. There are several new ideas and fixes, but this would be the best new gadget.

If the devs can't make it, then they will squash it. When they do, the thread will be dead. Doesn't mean the idea of a hologram in PS was a bad thing because so far it hasn't really gotten any negating on it aside from the fact that "people don't like it."

Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 12, 2008, 11:03:45 PM
Haha, Westfall, he was just making a comment that I usually do with his posts.  When I've agreed with spekkio on a certain subject, I would quote what he said and write "speikkio is wiese" or something along those lines.  It could be pure coincidence that he wrote the same for me or he could be playing off of the situation I just gave you.

But that's besides the point.  Spekkio obviously agreed with my opinion and made a comment about it.  However, you're telling him to rationally justify his views on a proposed gadget, but then make this comment; "his statement which consists of errors...many errors."  Where's the justification in that?  If you want to summarize the thread into what all the rambling has come down to, then by all means please do so.  If you're referring to Papa's multiple ideas of how a holo pod could work, then no, I read those.  I just don't think they're good or fit PS in any way.  I read through most of this stuff and I don't see where this "if you read earlier you'd know" type of deal is coming from.  What Mic said earlier was dead-on to what I'm saying.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2008, 05:08:13 PMPeople won't become used to it, how you come to that conclusion is beyond me Vega.  It looks just like a spy.  EXACT.  You won't be able to tell apart a hologram from a real spy at first glance, no matter who you are, or what graphics card you have.  Yet, somehow you predict that people would just see it and know that it isn't real?
Nope, doesn't work that way Vega.

How can I come to that conclusion?  Here we go again.  I've noticed with many of your posts, you look at ideas or other's opinions the entirely wrong way.  I didn't understand before, but I do now.  This is how you think, how you operate.  You're so narrow-minded with your thinking, that you automatically take something so incredibly obvious and argue it to death.  The fact that you bring up the graphics card, the personal appearance of the spy, and reiterate that it looks "exactly like a spy" is completely redundant and annoying.  Did I mention anything about the appearance of the spy?  No, I talked about mimicking human action.  When I refer to a human, I'm obviously referring to the human playing the spy.  This is what I said:
QuoteMimicking human action is going to be really tough, unless we record HUNDREDS of different moving patterns to make this shitty gadget more believable.  These moving patterns will have to involve lots of different animations or people will recognize a hologram too quickly and render this gadget useless.

Does it say anything like "OMG IT'S SO TEH HARD TO MAKE A COPY APPEARANCE OF A SPY!!!"  No, I talked about it being difficult to make it look like a believable moving pattern.  What's that mean?  Well, tell me Papa, when you go into a room, do you run straight in?  Not normally, a slight pattern develops and you're almost never running in a straight line -- especially if a merc is there.  What if you see a merc?  Do you taze him?  Do you roll to the left?  To the right?  Do you jerk to the side to avoid getting hit?  Do you zig-zag to avoid getting sniped?  Do you run up walls and do a back flip?  Do you climb boxes?  Do you go into vents?  Do you shoot 3 different kinds of nades, spy bullets, alarm snares, or cams?  Do you do any of the above? 

Here's my point: images running straight into an area are not human.  It's not believable.  Even with these "pre-recorded" images, the environment has to be open and with no obstructions (like boxes or poles or walls).  The pre-recorded images will be so situational that they aren't worth the gadget slot.  Of course having images run through walls and objects would be realistic, but in my opinion an entirely lame mechanic to add into the game. There are instances when a straight-line running image could cause a distraction for a second or two, but I believe these instances are few and far between.

I'll say it one more time.  It may certainly be possible to add holograms (as stupid as it is) to the game, but not in the way it's going right now. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 11:11:32 PM
QuoteIts presumptuous. You shouldn't correct other people's spelling when you need to consider your own.
And you need to learn to discern between obvious typos (u is right next to the i key) and blatant misspellings. "Hippocrite" is nowhere near a typo.

I don't know what you're trying to spew out, but Papa has no business commenting on how much time it would take to code or model something when he is not a programmer or modeler.

Quote from: vegaWords that make a lot of sense...
Vega is wise :).
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 11:16:26 PM
Okay, so you've seen the hologram run past that doorway 2 times now. So if a spy runs past, you'll think it's a hologram?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 11:22:51 PM
News flash: if you have to be in the area to place the hologram, seeing the hologram is going to tip you off to the fact that a spy is around no matter what.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 11:44:10 PM
The spy could have planted it from the other side of the room, then gone off to somewhere else - by the time to hologram got noticed, the spy wouldn't be there any more.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 13, 2008, 12:23:12 AM
We're currently far from even beginning on implementing things like these, so there won't be an official point of view of the devs.

Calling eachother morons is not advisable.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 13, 2008, 01:12:49 AM
Whoa there Vega, don't call me narrow minded because I read your post wrong.  I'm sure everyone here has done that one time or another.  If someone records their own recordings, it would be exactly like their human action.  Because well, it is actually them recording it.  The spies would just have to use their holograms strategically to be effective.  Meaning they would have to pick the right recording for the job at hand.

Ion, you overlook one very important detail.  It would have another use other than distracting mercs.  It would be a nice tool for aggro attacks as well.  Let me explain myself though, before you jump on me like a pack of ravenous wolves.  Stealth will be the more rewarding playstyle in PS correct?  Of course, it's just an assumption, but with darker maps, nerfed visions, fixed camo, no EAX, boosted tazer, stealth is going to be the best choice for playing the game.  Maybe, give the people a little more reason to play more aggressively.  And the holopod would be very useful for confusing the merc while playing aggro.

You are still not understanding that someone will never become "used to" holograms.  You can't.  They look just like real spies.  If you put a hologram right next to a real spy you couldn't tell the difference.  At first glance, the merc is going to go for the hologram.  Especially if you couple the hologram with an alarm snare so it makes noise as it's running.

How you come to the conclusion that it will be hard to make a believable moving pattern is beyond me Vega.  Especially when the people themselves are the ones who make the moving patterns.  This is where the skill and strategy comes to using holopods.  You have to have recordings that look believable in most situations and you have to plant them so they don't go through walls or anything.   And just to piss people off, you could make a recording of a spy teabagging.  Then you could kill a merc and shoot it on his body and run away.  Giving you time to hack objectives AND teabag the merc at the same time.  ;D
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 13, 2008, 01:56:41 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 13, 2008, 01:12:49 AM
Whoa there Vega, don't call me narrow minded because I read your post wrong.  I'm sure everyone here has done that one time or another.

I'm not calling you narrow-minded because you "misread" my post.  You get set on an idea and then when someone makes a logical argument against it, you often times argue redundant and unrelated points.

QuoteHow you come to the conclusion that it will be hard to make a believable moving pattern is beyond me Vega.  Especially when the people themselves are the ones who make the moving patterns.  This is where the skill and strategy comes to using holopods.  You have to have recordings that look believable in most situations and you have to plant them so they don't go through walls or anything.   And just to piss people off, you could make a recording of a spy teabagging.  Then you could kill a merc and shoot it on his body and run away.  Giving you time to hack objectives AND teabag the merc at the same time.  ;D

The recording option is probably one of the weirdest ideas conceptually to be brought up for PS.  So much pointless and odd work does not seem needed for a single gadget.  Besides it being odd to do so, adding this feature to our CT-styled game is such a lame mechanic to add that it's not even funny.  It's on par with giving our spies a teleporting device.  You could program it so you can do kicking backflips and even teleport inside boxes for hiding!  It's so cool!  Teleporters could work!  Right?!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 02:01:48 AM
Super goldfinger lasers would be better.

What do you guys not under stand about situational. You would need a different animation for each hallway to make the hologram look semi-real.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 13, 2008, 03:01:17 AM
Ion, I do understand that.  That is where the strategy to recording and deploying the right hologram comes in.

@Vega:  I've provided many logical explanations why this could work.  It's not on par with that at all.  Maybe a cloning device that would deploy a cloned spy, but not a hologram of a spy, come on now.  You are just exagerrating.  I'm 100% sure that this could even fool you, Vega.  Of course, that depends on its implementation.  But if it were to be implemented properly, it could fool anyone at first glance.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 03:46:02 AM
I understand that. But, for this gadget to have only 5 places where it would work is pointless. If I lay a snare down, then it makes noise and messes the reticle. If I do a shitty job of placing it, it can still make noises and mess with the reticle, it just won't be ass effective.

For your holo, if you don't use use it in the exact right place, you basically wasted a gadget slot.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 13, 2008, 04:06:07 AM
How exactly do you think someone could fuck up the placing so bad that it won't even make the merc look at it?  I can see that most situations someone would just place a recording of a spy running away or fast crouching.  Think about it.  If you are walking into pirates from greek, and someone places a holo so it just crouches right into blue room, the merc will think that there is a spy going into blue room and possibly turn all of his defenses toward that entrance.  That would leave you free to roam about behind him and if he chases after it you'd be able to shave a few seconds off of the objective and escape with time to spare.  The merc isn't going to have a lot of time to react and shoot the spy so he is going to think it is real.  There are many situations where just a straight line would work very well.  You don't need a unique recording for every hallway, you are exaggerating.

Using the holopod as bait would work very well too.  If you come around a corner and see a crouched spy who is going to shoot it?  Most people would just charge the "spy".  The merc would go right through the spy leaving you an easy neck grab if you place it wisely.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 04:52:34 AM
What I am saying is that you can have these 5 recordings or whatever, but you can only put the gadget it 5 spots. Mess up once, and you have a spy turning corners in a perfectly straight hallway.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 13, 2008, 05:00:20 AM
Quote from: Vega on February 12, 2008, 11:03:45 PM
Haha, Westfall, he was just making a comment that I usually do with his posts.  When I've agreed with spekkio on a certain subject, I would quote what he said and write "speikkio is wiese" or something along those lines.  It could be pure coincidence that he wrote the same for me or he could be playing off of the situation I just gave you.

Didn't know about the inside joke...I HATE YOU.....kind of......nt

QuoteBut that's besides the point.  Spekkio obviously agreed with my opinion and made a comment about it.  However, you're telling him to rationally justify his views on a proposed gadget, but then make this comment; "his statement which consists of errors...many errors."  Where's the justification in that?  If you want to summarize the thread into what all the rambling has come down to, then by all means please do so.  If you're referring to Papa's multiple ideas of how a holo pod could work, then no, I read those.  I just don't think they're good or fit PS in any way.  I read through most of this stuff and I don't see where this "if you read earlier you'd know" type of deal is coming from.  What Mic said earlier was dead-on to what I'm saying.

Yes, your statements did consist of errors. Papa does change around the idea of the holopod, but if you've been reading my posts, I actually answer questions that are being posed. I actually stray from what Papa has been saying. I want to see the holo pod in there, just not the way he may want it. If you have any questions, I will gladly answer them about the idea behind the holo pod. Papa's just hasn't been too specific and is changing. I don't have to justify that you're making errors if you haven't read my posts.

Quote
The recording option is probably one of the weirdest ideas conceptually to be brought up for PS.  So much pointless and odd work does not seem needed for a single gadget.  Besides it being odd to do so, adding this feature to our CT-styled game is such a lame mechanic to add that it's not even funny.  It's on par with giving our spies a teleporting device.  You could program it so you can do kicking backflips and even teleport inside boxes for hiding!  It's so cool!  Teleporters could work!  Right?!

Recording the presets would give you something to do on your account. Just like setting presets for games, maps, friends, etc. Also, this isn't CT...its PS...completely new game around Spies vs Mercenaries. I know the teleporting was a joke, so I'll let that slide (only this time Vegajuice). I don't know how a hologram is a "lame mechanic" though. I wish we had it now so some1 could use it on you, distract you by you going over to the hologram, and then hacking somewhere else. I would love to hear your reaction in this situation. The gadget is a situational gadget, but so is every other gadget.

Quote from: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 03:46:02 AM
I understand that. But, for this gadget to have only 5 places where it would work is pointless. If I lay a snare down, then it makes noise and messes the reticle. If I do a shitty job of placing it, it can still make noises and mess with the reticle, it just won't be ass effective.

For your holo, if you don't use use it in the exact right place, you basically wasted a gadget slot.

Well, if you use it incorrectly...then yes, you did waste a slot. Thats why we have to wait and see if the devs could ever actually do it. Kind of like most people taking snares now. What a wasted slot if you don't know how to use em. Actually, snares are just a waste of a slot....always.


Snares create the illusion of sound. A holo pod would create the illusion of sight.


Quote from: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 11:22:51 PM
News flash: if you have to be in the area to place the hologram, seeing the hologram is going to tip you off to the fact that a spy is around no matter what.

Duh. Kind of like if you saw a spy plant a cam, shoot snare, use camo, or saw a spy run to hide somewhere. The hologram would be shot from a distance, like it has been said....a lot.

Quote from: Spekkio on February 12, 2008, 11:11:32 PM
QuoteIts presumptuous. You shouldn't correct other people's spelling when you need to consider your own.
And you need to learn to discern between obvious typos (u is right next to the i key) and blatant misspellings. "Hippocrite" is nowhere near a typo.

I don't know what you're trying to spew out, but Papa has no business commenting on how much time it would take to code or model something when he is not a programmer or modeler.

A misspelling is a misspelling regardless, yea? I assume you don't get the red squiggly line underneath the typo?

You have no business insulting Papa right? Are you a programmer? Do you have any idea how long it takes? Papa has every right to say what he wants, or else this wouldn't be a forum. You can negate what hes saying....oh wait....no you can't because you don't know either. I'm spewing how you know just as much as he does about the topic of coding/programming/animating. You may know how to make a map, but that doesn't mean diddly compared to what the devs are doing. You would need some1 who knows to actually tell the truth. I don't even know if it takes long or not, because there was no answer and no one who has spoken here knows. Maybe Mic does, but he didn't really say.

Quote from: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 02:01:48 AM
What do you guys not under stand about situational. You would need a different animation for each hallway to make the hologram look semi-real.

You would need the animation you preset before you even entered the room. Its being strategic in several situations. Every gadget is situational.

Quote from: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 04:52:34 AM
What I am saying is that you can have these 5 recordings or whatever, but you can only put the gadget it 5 spots. Mess up once, and you have a spy turning corners in a perfectly straight hallway.

Then that would be the fault of the spy yea? It would look ridiculous and maybe give your position away. Oh wait, if you were stealthy it would only mean the merc knows what it is. Doesn't give away your position necessarily.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 13, 2008, 01:04:44 PM
Arg, I still don't know how to quote like you guys do  ???

Anyway, what about a stationary holopod?
Sit in a corner, drop the holopod which will show your exact position, move away.

The Merc will bash or shoot it, giving you time to hack or grab.
On the other hand, if you sit in a normal 'holopod' place, he might ignore you (he's going to the obj that's being hacked) and then you grab him (you were pretending to be a holopod).

That would be possible.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 13, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
The reason my explanations have been jumping around is because the idea is still developing.  I want to throw any ideas out there that could work and narrow them down later.  The idea isn't set in stone, we are still thinking about what it could be and how it could work.


Ion, who the hell is going to make a recording that makes a 90 degree turn randomly?  That's poor recording on their part.  Unless they place the holopod so the turn he makes happens at an actual corner.  But that won't happen.  Unless they record the holopod in that certain map so that every move they make actually makes sense.  It could even go into vents and such.  People could record a unique recording for every map so that the moves they make would make sense if they placed the holopod in the same place they started recording at.

That might not work that well. but if people just make recordings that for the most part go straight and place them right, it would be a very useful tool.  Or if you use them for bait.  I've explained this before, but you could place it in front of a doorway, hide behind it, wait for the merc to charge it go through it and hit the wall, then grab his neck.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 13, 2008, 05:34:55 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 13, 2008, 01:04:44 PM
Arg, I still don't know how to quote like you guys do  ???

Anyway, what about a stationary holopod?
Sit in a corner, drop the holopod which will show your exact position, move away.

The Merc will bash or shoot it, giving you time to hack or grab.
On the other hand, if you sit in a normal 'holopod' place, he might ignore you (he's going to the obj that's being hacked) and then you grab him (you were pretending to be a holopod).

That would be possible.

why would u not be able to shoot it?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 13, 2008, 05:53:47 PM
? You can shoot it, but the pod wont be affected.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Xris on February 13, 2008, 06:56:07 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 13, 2008, 01:04:44 PM
Arg, I still don't know how to quote like you guys do  ???
Do i need to teach you ??  ;) ;D
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Overstatement on February 13, 2008, 07:57:21 PM
Holo pads that projects two spies doing coop.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 13, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: Overstatement on February 13, 2008, 07:57:21 PM
Holo pads that projects two spies doing coop.

OMG!!!!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Overstatement on February 13, 2008, 08:51:32 PM
You're welcome.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 13, 2008, 08:55:22 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 13, 2008, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: Overstatement on February 13, 2008, 07:57:21 PM
Holo pads that projects two spies doing coop.

OMG!!!!
YES!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 14, 2008, 12:07:11 AM
Quote from: frvge on February 13, 2008, 05:53:47 PM
? You can shoot it, but the pod wont be affected.

better save then sorry.
if you run pass it, you can shoot or bash it.
and you will do that becase you dont want to walk passed a spy and do nothing about it
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 14, 2008, 12:49:22 AM
Correct. By not shooting it, you lose some valuable 0.5-1.5 seconds at the risk of being grabbed.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 14, 2008, 01:15:12 AM
Lets just make it clear:

- The holopod is placed _somewhere_
- The hologram doesn't make the merc's reticule red when hit.
- The hologram does NOT ping the reticule.
- It disappears when either out of the holopods range or not in visual contact with it.
Now unless the merc disables the holopod, the hologram is playing, right?

Also, have you considered, that IF the merc sees a holgram being played over and over again, he'll just stop watching it so much. This would let a spy hide INSIDE the hologram and slip through (Only possible if the merc doesn't find the holo-pod).
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 05:18:01 AM
Do you really think that the merc is going to wait and see the holopod replay every thirty seconds?  lol  :D  No.  The thing is, if a merc sees a pod go into a hallway, and it it dissapears cuz it goes through a wall, he'll be looking for it for 30 secs until it replays.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 14, 2008, 07:18:40 AM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 14, 2008, 01:15:12 AM
Lets just make it clear:

- The holopod is placed _somewhere_
- The hologram doesn't make the merc's reticule red when hit.
- The hologram does NOT ping the reticule.
- It disappears when either out of the holopods range or not in visual contact with it.
Now unless the merc disables the holopod, the hologram is playing, right?

Also, have you considered, that IF the merc sees a holgram being played over and over again, he'll just stop watching it so much. This would let a spy hide INSIDE the hologram and slip through (Only possible if the merc doesn't find the holo-pod).

Which is why you should have the option to freeze frame (or pause) one of your presets. Maybe the prest should only go from A to B and then not repeat either.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 07:24:45 AM
what if you could remote control it?  I mean you could have it run in a straight line, then you could use a scroll menu and select what you want it to do?  For example you could start it out so that it is just crouch walking in a straight line, then when a merc sees it you tell it to run, then roll.  That would help mimic human action because if a spy sees a merc, obviously he's going to run/roll away, it wouldn't shock the merc but whatever.  It would still be convincing.  Meanwhile, while the merc is chasing the "spy" that you so cleverly put a alarm snare right by, you could be making a nice move across the room, gain some ground, shave a few seconds off the hack, plant a bomb, etc... 

And this would help while planting the bomb obviously.  Because in the frenzy of finding the bomb the merc isn't going to be able to easily distinguish a real spy from a hologram.  It would confuse the merc, maybe.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 14, 2008, 07:49:02 AM
man just forget about the holopod, it's way too much coding for something that's probably going to suck completely.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 07:52:10 AM
No one would know until testing if it would actually be useful or useless.  Obviously, all we can do now is speculate.  I'll let it go, but I'd like to see testing done on new gadgets.  Of course, not just my ideas, but all ideas that would even remotely sound interesting.  Why?  Because they could turn out to be great for gameplay in the long run.  Of course, they could be terrible, but we'll never really know until we try them.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 14, 2008, 10:04:32 AM
remote controle?

i was thinking something like SCDA when a merc used a drone.

When a spy shoots a holopod
he loses his own mobility (also like a merc when using camnet or a drone)
leaving the real spy in danger / vunrable
but now you are playing/moving the holopod that plays like a normal spy

holopod needs to stay in range of the real spy
holomatrix grid wil become unstable when merc shoots at it and the hologram will dissapear

this way no spamming arrgo abuse of holograms
also becase you move the hologram yourself, and becase it plays like a normal spy
you make the moves of a normal player so you can fool mercs

is this the best sollution? 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 14, 2008, 12:02:17 PM
That's both overpowering I think and VERY risky for the Spy.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 14, 2008, 12:07:26 PM
Overpowered? I can hardly see it being useful at all...
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 14, 2008, 02:30:56 PM
yes it's risky, becase you will be vunrible
but it will keep the spy from spamming it.
but just like a merc using the camnet or drone
it will give you some power but it also gives you a weakness
so you will have to use it correctly

the spy will have to find a hiding space
(a merc would put his back against the wall if he would use the camnet)
hologram movement can be controlled by the spy giving you full motion an direction to give a wrong impression to a merc.
the holomatrix wont overload with 1 or 2 shots
but i think it should be in, or els you got one arrgo spy with a hologram fake dummy ronning around the merc to srew him.

maby mines and traps should not be vissable for the hologram
this way a spy can enter rooms and have a look around without stepping on to them

ones again this is a mix of both ideas that where suggested
maby this gives you a fresh point of view


Quote from: Cyntrox on February 14, 2008, 12:07:26 PM
Overpowered? I can hardly see it being useful at all...
this isnt a lot different from gaiwen idea
that you got projector from your SS
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 03:11:37 PM
It seems useless to me, not overpowered.  The reason is that you can't gain ground while using it.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 14, 2008, 06:15:21 PM
No remote control. That would probably be harder to code. It doesn't seem to fit in terms of balance or necessity for this already new type of gadget.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 14, 2008, 07:49:02 AM
man just forget about the holopod, it's way too much coding for something that's probably going to suck completely.

Glad you could join us. Do you know how long it would take to program? Have you read anything in the thread, or are you just going off what you want? "...going to suck completely." Why? Because it will make you look stupid in game? Why is it a bad idea? Pretty sick of ppl coming in here spamming the idea because they (a) didn't read the thread, (b) aren't giving ideas to nix it or help it, (c) don't want it because they "don't like it." Justify yourself or don't bother posting in this thread. There are plenty of other threads to post your likes and dislikes, but thats not being productive at all, now is it?

@mental: if some1 spams the hologram it loses its purpose. The merc will know that there are a few holo pods down and therefore camp until something gives away the spies real position.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 14, 2008, 06:31:37 PM
Remote control shouldn't be too hard. I'm fairly certain it's easier than the rest of the ideas.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 14, 2008, 06:34:07 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 14, 2008, 06:31:37 PM
Remote control shouldn't be too hard. I'm fairly certain it's easier than the rest of the ideas.

So programming a remote control to the original programming of the holo pod would be easy to program, code, and animate? If thats the case, then go for it. If not, then we should focus on getting the holo pod working first. I just don't see as mjuch use for a remote control as Papa does. I think the gadget can do without, and having to stick around to control the destiny of the holo pod might be a giveaway for position. It should loop once and stall. It seems the most balanced and better for game play. I would love to try both, but I would rather see if the programmers are even going to attempt it.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Xris on February 14, 2008, 06:49:49 PM
well a "remote control" would be a regular spy that doesn't really die ...
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Overstatement on February 14, 2008, 07:54:54 PM
Nothing and everything is hard to code.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 14, 2008, 07:56:10 PM
And ghosts through the map.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: mentalmars on February 14, 2008, 09:34:28 PM
it's a option, just giving input for a different aprouch ;)

you also wouldnt gain ground if you used the ss as a projection gun
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 14, 2008, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 14, 2008, 06:15:21 PM
Do you know how long it would take to program?
To make it look anywhere realistic enough to fool a merc, it's going to effectively require a simple AI of sorts, and that includes programming pathing into it such that it runs around obstacles.

About the only thing that might work is allowing the spy to control the thing manually, of course that'd be pointless, because you'd have to be standing still while you're doing it. A manual one might be ok if it produces sound from running and if you could launch it from the launcher on your gun like a sticky cam and that's where it starts.

But any kind of automatic holopod? People talking about programming a bunch of animations into it and such. Come on. That's going to take way too long to code to make it do anything remotely like what you'd want it to do. 

Quote"...going to suck completely." Why?
Because any experienced merc will easily be able to tell holo-pod from spy after a few plays. It's only going to be a device to confuse a newbie.

Seriously, the holopod is a cool idea if we could make it work, but I don't it's possible. It's going to take a lot of coding and then after all that, it's going to be a gadget nobody uses.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 14, 2008, 11:24:09 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 14, 2008, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 14, 2008, 06:15:21 PM
Do you know how long it would take to program?
To make it look anywhere realistic enough to fool a merc, it's going to effectively require a simple AI of sorts, and that includes programming pathing into it such that it runs around obstacles.

About the only thing that might work is allowing the spy to control the thing manually, of course that'd be pointless, because you'd have to be standing still while you're doing it. A manual one might be ok if it produces sound from running and if you could launch it from the launcher on your gun like a sticky cam and that's where it starts.

But any kind of automatic holopod? People talking about programming a bunch of animations into it and such. Come on. That's going to take way too long to code to make it do anything remotely like what you'd want it to do. 
You're ignoring so many of the suggestions it's not funny anymore...

And why would it require any more animations than an ordinary spy?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 11:39:13 PM
I had a limited suggestion for remote control.  Like you could tell it when to start running and going faster, but it still does the basic recording or goes in a straight line.  It would mimic human movement a bit better if you could tell it to run when a merc sees it.  It would help convince the merc that it is real.

Whoever said it would require more animation is either:
A) Completely lost
B) Not reading posts
C) Has no common sense

It's the same spy, why the hell would you give it animations that a real spy doesn't have?

And invisible, you should have more faith in our dev team.  Frvge even said that it wouldn't be too hard to code himself.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 11:44:31 PM
Who said anything about AI?  Are you reading any posts?  What's wrong with EVOLVING an idea?  We are putting input into something that we see could be great.  What's wrong with that?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 14, 2008, 11:46:17 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.
I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 11:48:00 PM
How about drawing it's path on your map?  Like you click the mouse on the map and drag it until you reach the desired path for it to take.  From there, you can control the holopod's speed and stance.  And it's not randomness as you say it is, Ion.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 14, 2008, 11:57:06 PM
Papa, this would require LOTS of holopods throughout the map.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 14, 2008, 11:59:31 PM
Says who?  You launch the pod to its starting point, and you draw the path, he stops and restarts at the end of the path.  Don't quite follow you.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 12:00:03 AM
Sounds like it'd take too long to set up.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 15, 2008, 12:15:21 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 14, 2008, 11:48:00 PM
How about drawing it's path on your map?  Like you click the mouse on the map and drag it until you reach the desired path for it to take.  From there, you can control the holopod's speed and stance.  And it's not randomness as you say it is, Ion.
Of what i understood you meant the Tactical map (F7), so as i said, this needs lots of holopods.
Or maybe you meant drawing the path on the floor...whatever.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 15, 2008, 12:21:20 AM
Making a holopod run from A to B requires him to follow the curvature of the floor. I think it's possible when we make it drop to the floor, but we can not implement obstacle evasion. Well, we can, but it's time that can be spend better somewhere else.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 12:28:35 AM
maybe we should simply drop this idea. even if we manage to find a hologram system good enough to trick a good player and if the devs are able to implement it we woud still have no real idea of it's impact on the gameplay. maybe it's a really bad idea to implement a gadget that fools your vision totally in a stealth game where it's already quite hard to find the spies.
i really do think that the time wasted discussing this would be better spend on discussing changes and new features for spy traps.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 15, 2008, 12:44:05 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 12:00:03 AM
Sounds like it'd take too long to set up.

agreed.   I was just brainstorming.  And gawain.  We talk on all the topics at the same time  ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 15, 2008, 02:40:28 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 14, 2008, 11:24:09 PM

You're ignoring so many of the suggestions it's not funny anymore...

It's because these suggestions are HORRIBLE.  You guys are naming everything off the top of your head.  I used to do this too, till I found out how pointless it was till I had something concrete.  Remote-control spy images?  You guys have to be kidding me.  What kind of game are we playing?  95% of the ideas proposed on this forum are simply "hey this would be cool!" but the person rarely thinks how the gadget/idea affects gameplay, mechanically and fundamentally.  It's really fucking annoying because a lot of these ideas don't even propose something new to the game fundamentally, just some eye candy to work with.  The problem is how many people look at the graphic or "cool" effect rather than how it works fundamentally.

So what do I mean by fundamentally?  Let's look at a common situation when two spies go for a single objective.  One spy hacks, while the other provides cover.  The covering spy usually tazes, nades, elbows, or does whatever possible to distract a merc(s) from reaching the hacking spy, right?  This can and sometimes involves putting the covering spy in danger.  He sometimes has to go in there and and use close combat against a merc.  It's a dangerous strategy but very rewarding if done successfully.  So what does a remote-controlled image do?  Nothing.  It can't do a single thing.  This isn't a guessing game.  A merc isn't going to be intimidated by some random non-threatening spy.  A quick rifle/UZI/shotgun shot will take care of that image's believability.  Not only does a remote-controlled image take one spy out of the action (since he has to manually move it around) but it also does absolutely nothing for distraction.  "Oh a spy, let's chase him!"  Is this Tom and Jerry?  Do you have thumbtacks scattered on the ground around the corner? 

Even if this stupid image could shoot nades and elbow and taze, then it removes the danger factor and completely screws over the balance of the situation I gave above.  There are countless situations I can give, yet the only situation you guys are going to be able to provide is "OMG!  You can send this image in to distract!"  It's as if you guys think the remote-controlled image is gold and the mercenaries will run wildly towards it, ignoring all other aspects of the game like sniping, nades, visions, patrolling, camnet, etc.

I could explain throughly how the holopod has the same problems, how it's fundamentally a poor idea, but I'm not up for doing that at the moment. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 15, 2008, 04:54:53 AM
Vega, if you see a hologram run by your face you aren't going to worry about patrolling, camnet, sniping at that moment.  You are going to stop what you are doing and try to kill the spy.  Not, "Oh, I better worry about stopping the spies and keep sniping and forget about that spy I see running across the corner of my screen"  It's not something a merc is going to run wildly after, maybe the merc would chase it around 20 feet until he realizes that the spy isn't real.  If you can get a merc 20 more feet away from an objective and not in firing range, you have atleast 3-4 seconds of hack time depending on how close you are to the objective when he chases it.  And all we are doing now is brainstorming because as a community we can get more opinions and suggestions rather than 1 person making set-in-stone suggestions.  If a community contributes you will end up with an idea that is better than the one you thought up in the first place.  Unless you have an idea that everyone agrees upon, which doesn't happen very often.

This would also be a nice aggro tool and escape tool.  You throw a pod down and all of a sudden there are two spies that he can't differ from unless he shoots them or notices some abnormalities in the spy hologram.  Think about using this as an escape tool.  A merc knows you are at a position, and you put one of these babies down and have him go in a random direction.  The merc is going to at first think that it is real, and meanwhile you are free to go in any direction you'd like to escape.  Think about using this for bomb attacks, example Polar Base:  You plant a bomb on the top of the generators.  You put a holopod on the bottom level and the merc is going to think the bomb you planted is at the bottom level because he saw the holopod running around at the floor level.  This could buy you some time because the mercs are going to check the bottom first.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:10:12 AM
1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:
Quote
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.
I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 06:03:36 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:10:12 AM
1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:
Quote
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.
I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.

That is called AI, bud. Don't even think about it. Papa is not right, the merc will follow the thing that is running like hell, not the one who is just running towards him, doing nothing.

I am not going to post some master post about why this is a horrible idea. I have already posted numerous times against everyone of the options on this holopod thing.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 06:42:46 PM
Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 07:20:21 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 06:42:46 PM
Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.
Stay on topic and quit acting all tough. [/sarcasm]

Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 07:32:20 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 07:20:21 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 06:42:46 PM
Vega is on fire in this thread. So wise.
Stay on topic and quit acting all tough. [/sarcasm]
stfu or i will smite ye. rawr!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 08:22:01 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 06:03:36 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:10:12 AM
1) Papa is right.
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:
Quote
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 11:42:35 PM
This has evolved into a lot of randomness about improving this idea. Remote control is retarded, as is AI. Forget about those.
I agree that AI is not a good idea, but tell me why a limited remote control is retarded. I'm not talking about assuming full control of the hologram, I'm talking about specifying a point to move to and from, and perhaps do minor things on the way - like getting up and diving if it is seen.

That is called AI, bud. Don't even think about it. Papa is not right, the merc will follow the thing that is running like hell, not the one who is just running towards him, doing nothing.

I am not going to post some master post about why this is a horrible idea. I have already posted numerous times against everyone of the options on this holopod thing.
No, moving from one point to another is not AI. It requires no intelligence at all. Neither does standing up and diving if the merc has you on their screen.

And only a fool would make the image run right towards a merc - a good use would be letting the merc get a small glimpse of the hologram, as to make him leave his position to check it out.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 15, 2008, 09:15:37 PM
QuoteNo, moving from one point to another is not AI[/qote]
Obstacle evasion is (computationally very expensive). Finding an optimal path is (IDA* algorithm). So yeah  ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 15, 2008, 09:15:37 PM
QuoteNo, moving from one point to another is not AI
Obstacle evasion is (computationally very expensive). Finding an optimal path is (IDA* algorithm). So yeah  ;)

I think that means that it is AI?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:47:54 PM
Who ever said it needs obstacle evasion? If the maps are as clean as in CT, you should be able to make use of it by having it move in a straight line.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 15, 2008, 10:00:37 PM
For the record, I wouldn't set up a hologram to protect me in the same room I am hacking. That was a very n00b scenario. I love when you people say "any good merc" too. Makes me laugh only with how wrong everyone is. Vega said 1 correct thing about getting something concrete. Unfortunately Vega, it would have to wait a while, which makes your post....well...useless. But thanks for explaining how the hologram wouldn't work or is a poor idea. Wait wait....you didn't do that either....that would've actually been constructive criticism. Rather, you just babbled a poor scenario and here we still are. So Spekkio is right by saying your on fire....for making the gay comments. (see you tonight...but no thong this time ;) )

"OMG, YOU CAN SEND THE IMAGE TO DISTRACT?!?!?!?" OMG, you can only shoot snares to distract? EVERY GADGET IS A TYPE OF DISTRACTION.

Frvge, how hard would it be to record certain presets of the hologram with a pause option, have a menu for this before shooting the bullet-sized holopod, and make it loop only once? The idea of remote controlling and making it go around corners doesn't really work. It would take too long to set-up. If you just had a recording of the spy crouched/walking into a vent and freezing in there, well the merc is quite confused now yea? He will go for where the spy is going. Any good merc would (lol), or any good merc(lol) would try to guess where he was coming out or go to the nearest objective.

Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 12:28:35 AM
maybe we should simply drop this idea. even if we manage to find a hologram system good enough to trick a good player and if the devs are able to implement it we woud still have no real idea of it's impact on the gameplay. maybe it's a really bad idea to implement a gadget that fools your vision totally in a stealth game where it's already quite hard to find the spies.
i really do think that the time wasted discussing this would be better spend on discussing changes and new features for spy traps.

Then make another fuckin thread, no one is stopping you, so by all means. You are correct that we don't know the impact. I'm kind of tired of obvious things being stated as well as being repeated. It has to be tested before implemented.

There are ideas being thrown out at random though, and shouldn't be. The only real huge flaw with this, even though not really, is that the hologram wouldn't be seen in MT vision, which is a dead giveaway if the merc doesn't think to turn it on right away. With good ideas there have to be flaws in order to balance out, so it not being tracked on MT makes it that much more workable as a gadget.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 15, 2008, 10:52:16 PM
QuoteFrvge, how hard would it be to record certain presets of the hologram with a pause option, have a menu for this before shooting the bullet-sized holopod, and make it loop only once?
If there are like 4 options AND the holopod runs straight from A to B, only affected by gravity and the floor, so basically no-clipping through obstacles, it MIGHT be possible.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 11:20:06 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 15, 2008, 10:00:37 PM
You are correct that we don't know the impact. I'm kind of tired of obvious things being stated as well as being repeated. It has to be tested before implemented.
it makes no sense to implement something complicated whith tremendous programming effort when there's so much other more simple but yet important stuff to fix.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 15, 2008, 11:51:20 PM
Wow Gawain. 

1.  Why do you suggest making alternate game modes (and things like the hack glove) when there is so much more work to be done then?

2.  Frvge already said it would be possible.  Stop exaggerating how ZOMG difficult it would be to program it when you have no idea and you ignore the posts from the devs about it.

3.  Don't ever post a new idea then if you think there are more important ground work things to be discussed.  Funny that this is your topic and you say that it isn't time for new ideas and rather the framework.  I for one, make new ideas because I think it's better to discuss them early on in the developing phase.  Instead of throwing together ideas at the last minute and seeing if they will work with minimal testing.

4.  The idea is not that complicated.  In fact, they already have the spy bullet and spy running animation completed (I've only seen the first attempt at that however).  The spy bullet acts as the projector, and the spy hologram runs, or performs the animations that you yourself recording prior to the game.  OR, you could tell it what to do on the fly:  Run, crouch, walk slowly, roll, jump etc...
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 16, 2008, 02:13:58 AM
Yeah, pretty easy stuff for a serious programmer, afaik.
The only prob could be with the distortion when the hologram would be hit, or when the player took controll of the hologram.
Hey, why not let players decide if they want to go manual on the hologram or not??
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 16, 2008, 02:45:46 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:10:12 AM
2) Yet again you ignored one of my posts, Vega:

Considering my post is directed towards Papa's original idea of "remote controlled spy images," I would think you have zero say in the matter.  Here's the quote my argument was based on;
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 14, 2008, 07:24:45 AM
what if you could remote control it?
All I did was quote you for saying something that I thought the answer was obvious; people are denying ideas because the ideas proposed simply suck.  So, uh, no, how about you "yet again" read my post?  My point is for people to stop suggesting ideas without thinking it through. 

Quote from: Cyntrox on February 15, 2008, 09:47:54 PM
Who ever said it needs obstacle evasion? If the maps are as clean as in CT, you should be able to make use of it by having it move in a straight line.

Another reason why this is not a believable image.  A straight running spy, especially in the presence of a merc, isn't very believable.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 04:54:53 AM
maybe the merc would chase it around 20 feet until he realizes that the spy isn't real.

Again, you're going to have a difficult time making a believable, natural looking spy that runs around.  Frvge said it himself that images with hit detection is not worth the team's time.

QuoteAnd all we are doing now is brainstorming because as a community we can get more opinions and suggestions rather than 1 person making set-in-stone suggestions.  If a community contributes you will end up with an idea that is better than the one you thought up in the first place.  Unless you have an idea that everyone agrees upon, which doesn't happen very often.

Yeah, I most certainly, but a nice bit of this community "agrees" on bad ideas, simple as that.  This even includes you, as I usually strongly disagree with your suggestions for a couple of reasons:
1.  This one quote a while back shows how you want to change CT at its core.
QuoteI'd rather not play a game like CT where it seems like there were no battles on the map within 12 minutes of hunting and killing, that's completely retarded.
Considering the objective of this team is to make PS as close as possible to CT, I find it ironic that you're even here.
2.  You bring new gameplay elements/mechanics into the game that change CT drastically.  I feel this is basically because of point #1.
3.  You defend these ideas with an increasingly skewed knowledge on how CT fundamentally works. 

I've already explained my reasons for why the holopod isn't as great as an escape tool as you think.  For some reason you still think this spy image is going to be very believable, but I don't think it will.  You bring up the Polar Base example which I find strengthens my ideas much more than yours.  The Polar Base bomb area has an enormous amount of poles, rails, and other objects that the image would need hit detection to even look somewhat believable.  The bomb area is so confined that without hit detection, the image would be hitting objects left and right, and running off into thin air on the upper bomb area.  Yes, you can put this image on the ground to the outside of the bomb area, so it won't hit anything.  I still find it worthless, having to set that up on a level that is especially open is even more unrealistic.

Now, westfall ;)
QuoteFor the record, I wouldn't set up a hologram to protect me in the same room I am hacking. That was a very n00b scenario.

Hmmm westfall you're missing my point.  The idea was that your partner set up the remote-controlled hologram, because almost everyone's idea for hologram here is "it can be used for distraction!"  Remember, that scenario I gave was for the "remote-controlled" idea.

Quote"OMG, YOU CAN SEND THE IMAGE TO DISTRACT?!?!?!?" OMG, you can only shoot snares to distract? EVERY GADGET IS A TYPE OF DISTRACTION.

Sure, but snares don't only distract but mask your movement.  Totally different scenario and far more effective than this holopod.  Not everyone likes snares because they can be difficult and when not used properly, worthless.

QuoteThere are ideas being thrown out at random though, and shouldn't be. The only real huge flaw with this, even though not really, is that the hologram wouldn't be seen in MT vision, which is a dead giveaway if the merc doesn't think to turn it on right away. With good ideas there have to be flaws in order to balance out, so it not being tracked on MT makes it that much more workable as a gadget.

I thought of this too, and I find it a huge deal.  You know as well as I do it takes a split second to put on MT, and many walk around in MT for the majority of the game.  I find MT completely owns this spy image idea in every way possible.  It's nullified to the extent of overkill. 

EDIT; Added in one thing.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 16, 2008, 07:49:04 AM
MT is a big deal with the holo pod because it wouldn't go off. It is quick to turn on, yet with the fix it may not go off as easily as it does in CT. Its the giveaway of the hologram, which is good because the gadget should have a weakness, ya know?

Imagine shooting the hologram 3 separate times in a room where you are and a merc enters. This is another flaw I feel because its spamming. As funny as it would be to have 5 spies in one room, there should definitely be a limit to how many can be placed at once and how long they should last for. I think they should last forever, but only 2 can be placed at a time. Therefore you need the "delete last placed" option in the menu (kind of like mines now).

Vega....PS is based off of the ideas based on and around SvM.....not DA, CT, or PT. They are only there for suggestions for balancing purposes. This is a completely different game on a completely different engine. This is NOT "CT 2: T3h Gr34t3st Com3b4ck".

The possibilities to implement this gadget are there. Yes, it will be tough and may not even work. I would obviously hope that other things are being tended to than the almighty holo pod. Its just a new idea that has potential to either be great or suck donkey. I'm still a nay sayer when it comes to the remote control though.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 16, 2008, 09:03:05 AM
^ basically everything I was going to say. 

I straight running spy wouldn't JUST RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE.  It would zig zag a bit, but still keep the general direction.  This is why I suggested you could override the recording and just set it to an autopilot mode where you can tell it to roll, crouch, jump etc... but it still runs in a generally straight line. This would make it believable.  And I never ever said anything about the holopod having hit detection for mercs.  The community as a whole doesn't disagree with this idea like you say they do.  In fact, I have people backing me right now with this idea.  I don't want to change the core gameplay.  I just want to add to it.  The game needs more variety.  Whether this gadget would turn out to be good or bad NOBODY can tell, it needs testing, along with some of the other ideas that the community has come up with.  Everything needs testing, because something could be great and none of us would know it until we see it or play it.

Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 01:23:51 PM
omg papa stop it. didn't you get a clue that this actually is a bad idea when even i who started this topic changed my mind about it? it makes absolutely no sense arguing about something with you as you simply won't change your mind no matter how good the counter arguments are.

i'm kinda worried that a lot of people here didn't get the the mission of this mod.
ct is arguably the best svm so we should build on it's core. it's even the best with it's many many flaws which we should cure first and see how it turns out before thinking about implementing new mechanics.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 16, 2008, 05:41:46 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 16, 2008, 01:23:51 PM
omg papa stop it. didn't you get a clue that this actually is a bad idea when even i who started this topic changed my mind about it? it makes absolutely no sense arguing about something with you as you simply won't change your mind no matter how good the counter arguments are.

i'm kinda worried that a lot of people here didn't get the the mission of this mod.
ct is arguably the best svm so we should build on it's core. it's even the best with it's many many flaws which we should cure first and see how it turns out before thinking about implementing new mechanics.

Here's the thing: why should someone change their mind about something when the counter arguments don't exist? Make me change my mind Gaiwan. If its such a big deal you have to convince me why this gadget won't be good for the game. So far, no one has done that.....not even remotely close. No one has give a good justification of why this gadget would be bad for PS, the gameplay in PS, and bad for SvM. Until then, I'm going to continue to actually try and get this gadget in there because of how unique it is compared to the other gadgets. And just because you changed your mind doesn't make the idea bad.

You don't get the mission of this mod. It is not a fixed CT. It is PS....on a different engine. This means the game play will be rather different. The only thing we can comparably use from CT is that it was a SvM styled game. We've already discussed many fixes for beneficial purposes, but new things need to be added in order to make this game original. No, a holo pod doesn't make the game original, but all of the tweaks and possibilities for new ideas do.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 16, 2008, 08:04:05 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 16, 2008, 07:49:04 AM
MT is a big deal with the holo pod because it wouldn't go off. It is quick to turn on, yet with the fix it may not go off as easily as it does in CT. Its the giveaway of the hologram, which is good because the gadget should have a weakness, ya know?

Of course it needs a weakness, but MT rules this thing out too easily.  Not only that, but it seems to encourage MT whoring.  I don't know how MT is going to be changed for PS, but if I remember correctly, it wasn't going to get nerfed too much.

QuoteVega....PS is based off of the ideas based on and around SvM.....not DA, CT, or PT. They are only there for suggestions for balancing purposes. This is a completely different game on a completely different engine. This is NOT "CT 2: T3h Gr34t3st Com3b4ck".

From what has been stated multiple times, I was under the impression that we are going to replicate CT at its core.  This isn't CT, but this is as close as possible.  Even if what you say is true, neither of us know the engine so neither of us can be an educated guess on how this will affect gameplay.  But since we're making this as close as possible to CT, it makes sense to use CT as a model to base situations from.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 09:03:05 AM
I straight running spy wouldn't JUST RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE.  It would zig zag a bit, but still keep the general direction.  This is why I suggested you could override the recording and just set it to an autopilot mode where you can tell it to roll, crouch, jump etc... but it still runs in a generally straight line. This would make it believable.  And I never ever said anything about the holopod having hit detection for mercs

Seems a lot like a distinct pattern that will be noticeable after this gadget is used for the first couple of weeks.  People will recognize this pattern and grow accustomed to it, rendering this gadget more useful vs. inexperienced noobs.  All you have going for this gadget is "make your own patterns!" which I still think is a waste of time and and too much work for a single gadget.  With your autopilot feature, it once again needs to have hit detection so it doesn't look stupid.  When I say hit detection, I'm referring to the image being capable of knowing whether it just ran into an object or not, such as a wall or box.  Without hit detection, this image has very limited uses.  But as for hit detection with bullets, images should most certainly flicker/disappear/distort when hit by a bullet.  Something has to be noticeable because not knowing if you hit a spy or not in CT is a huge annoyance. 

QuoteThe community as a whole doesn't disagree with this idea like you say they do.  In fact, I have people backing me right now with this idea.

That's not what I said.  I said they agree on shitty ideas.  Such as the holopod. 

QuoteThe game needs more variety.  Whether this gadget would turn out to be good or bad NOBODY can tell, it needs testing, along with some of the other ideas that the community has come up with.  Everything needs testing, because something could be great and none of us would know it until we see it or play it.

Again, I find the holopod unworthy and a waste of time for testing. My personal opinion, but you're pretty much stating the obvious. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 16, 2008, 08:30:56 PM
Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on February 16, 2008, 11:24:47 PM
Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 17, 2008, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:30:56 PM
Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

How did you become accustomed to the snare? I mean, it pings the reticle like a normal spy, but you still ignore it? WOW, AMAZING.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 12:48:40 AM
Remote control is the only thing that's doable and that'd have huge drawbacks. That would mean basically it'd be like using camnet, only instead of a camera you're controlling a holospy who can run around. Probably you'd have to stay within a set radius of the holopod, similar to the DA drone where you just die when you pop out of the radius.

Of course, this would create some balance ripples. Because actually it'd suck as a distraction, if it makes no noise, no merc will believe it. But it would be nice for scouting around corners and such. So it's more of a recon pod than a holopod. Also it would be really crazy if it could trip lasers and mines, since you could basically send in a suicide runner and then follow up with the real spy.

The whole "drawing a path on the map" and preprgrammed shit just isn't going to work. It's going to iether require AI for obstacle avoidance and pathing, or it's going to be walking through walls and be instantly recognizable by the merc as being something false. How often are you going to have the perfect timing that it requires to set up this hologram so it runs down a corridor and meets the following criteria:

-The merc has to notice it.
-The merc has to fail to notice it's not making noise.
-The merc has to not see it walk through walls.

And all this in one animation of the holospy? It just isn't going to happen.

About all this might be useful for is a pure aggro tool where you drop like 2 at once or something so there's spies everywhere, combined with alarm snares of course. As a distraction tool, this thing will suck ass.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 17, 2008, 01:12:43 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:30:56 PM
Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

So Papa, tell me, how are we going to get this "unique pattern?"  Tell me.  Exclude "recording your own moves" for the time being.  What else can be done?  Can the image run through walls/objects?  If so, that's a pretty limited image considering how many objects are in a map.  To balance this, an image must give away some detail of it's nature, such as the image distorting when shot or something of the like.  That alone will be a dead give away as well.

Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 16, 2008, 11:24:47 PM
Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 17, 2008, 01:14:16 AM
Quote from: Vega on February 17, 2008, 01:12:43 AM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 16, 2008, 11:24:47 PM
Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.
One shot is enough for a good spy to slip past on the other side of the room.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 17, 2008, 08:13:09 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 17, 2008, 01:14:16 AM
One shot is enough for a good spy to slip past on the other side of the room.

True, but again, I find this very limited and especially since you mention "the other side of the room."  A merc with an uzi is going to be near you in order for his weapon to be effective.  A "good spy" is pretty generic in this regard, that term usually refers to playing habits or standard tactics.  I don't see how a "good spy" would be so much better in this situation.  Does he have time to place this hologram?  Where is the camnet or patrolling mercs that spoil his position?  What if we have a "good merc" that snipes you in one shot?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 17, 2008, 08:39:03 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 17, 2008, 12:00:59 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:30:56 PM
Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

How did you become accustomed to the snare? I mean, it pings the reticle like a normal spy, but you still ignore it? WOW, AMAZING.

To compare the effects of the alarm snare and the holopod is completely moronic.  They have completely different uses.  You become accustomed to alarm snares because they are totally obvious.  You would not become accustomed to holopods because they aren't obvious.  Imagine an alarm snare that emits sounds every 5-10 seconds and they are audible.  ONLY THEN can you compare alarm snare and holopod.  Get real man.

Quote from: Vega on February 17, 2008, 01:12:43 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:30:56 PM
Wow vega.  You are severely overestimating people.  How the fuck can someone become accustomed to seeing a spy run in a straight line AND a zig zaggish line? (just made that word up lol).  Someone just sees a hologram running in its own unique pattern, looks exactly like a spy, mimics his actions and all, but you seem to think someone will become accustomed to that?   :D

Can anyone here tell the difference between a spy and a spy?  Don't think so.   ;)

So Papa, tell me, how are we going to get this "unique pattern?"  Tell me.  Exclude "recording your own moves" for the time being.  What else can be done?  Can the image run through walls/objects?  If so, that's a pretty limited image considering how many objects are in a map.  To balance this, an image must give away some detail of it's nature, such as the image distorting when shot or something of the like.  That alone will be a dead give away as well.

Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 16, 2008, 11:24:47 PM
Also, even if the holograms just ran in a straight line, a player could easily mimic this, creating quite a confiusion to the mercs.

I had thought of this when I originally heard about the hologram's actions, but this isn't to say a merc isn't going to "test shot" a hologram.  One shot will do the trick.

Actually, I take back my "unique" statement.  They won't be unique at all.  In fact, they will be identical to spy movement.  THe same.  No special animations that you could see to tell the difference between them.  You could set the holopod to autopilot mode.  It goes basically in a straight line but it has some minor curves like a real player would have.  From the autopilot mode you can give it a little set of commands:  Roll, crouch, jump, get out ss...  that way you could convince the merc even further that it is real.  A nifty way you could use this is have it slowly walk into shadows, but time it so that the merc sees it.  The hologram will walk through the walls but the merc won't know it.  He'll just think that it is hiding in that dark area that he saw the "spy" go into.  A way to take its use a step further would be to give spies the ability to turn it off and on.  You could make little flickers of spy images appear and the merc will see them. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 17, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2008, 08:39:03 AM
Actually, I take back my "unique" statement.  They won't be unique at all.  In fact, they will be identical to spy movement.  THe same.  No special animations that you could see to tell the difference between them.  You could set the holopod to autopilot mode.  It goes basically in a straight line but it has some minor curves like a real player would have.  From the autopilot mode you can give it a little set of commands:  Roll, crouch, jump, get out ss...  that way you could convince the merc even further that it is real.  A nifty way you could use this is have it slowly walk into shadows, but time it so that the merc sees it.  The hologram will walk through the walls but the merc won't know it.  He'll just think that it is hiding in that dark area that he saw the "spy" go into.  A way to take its use a step further would be to give spies the ability to turn it off and on.  You could make little flickers of spy images appear and the merc will see them. 

No, when I say unique, I'm referring to the unique pattern each human-player exhibits when controlling a spy.  Holograms won't have this unless they are controlled by a player (horrible idea) or by making the image heavily animated (waste of time IMO).  If neither of those requirements are met, this image won't be believable after a person has seen it the first week or so of gameplay.  It's going to drastically lose it's value.

The Auto-pilot idea seems very unfit for CT; having a separate menu pop-up for the player sounds disastrous.  I'll use your examples; roll, pull out SS, jump, crouch.  Wait...are you shitting me?  Can you please picture how ridiculous this would be to pull off?  Pull out SS...wait, this hologram can't taze.  Roll...into that box/wall and magically go through.  Jump...because this hologram has superior pathfinding.  Crouch...the only one that is somewhat normal.  So we have a non-tazing, disappearing, jumping spy who occasionally crouches for believability.  Oh, and he has non-clipping (goes through walls).  You're telling me the mercenary won't notice this?  This image shouldn't logically set off MT either, another downfall to this idea.  Being able to turn this on and off is bad for balance, nothing in SvM is like that besides a cam.  Besides, that's to serve as a recon tool only after the gas has already been exhausted.

You can even go the whole nine yards and give this image commands like "turn left, turn right, roll left, roll right" but this isn't an MMORPG where I use a "pet" to aggro hostile mercenaries.



Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 17, 2008, 10:14:15 AM
k, wtf are you talking about Vega?  Not all animations or recordings will be the same, so there is the "uniqueness" for ya.  You can't tell me to throw out the idea that would help exhibit unique holograms and then ask me how we will make it so they are unique. 

And you made me lol, to be honest.  Those little things you tell it to do would just be there to make the hologram more believable.  Who would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?  You jump to conclusions way to quickly, with no stops in between.  Atleast stop and think about how the player would use them.  Obviously the player wouldn't tell it to go toward a crate, first of all. (haha now you are underestimating spies and overestimating mercs, when will this end  :D)  The player would tell it to pull out its gun to maybe make it look like the spy is using hbs.  Haven't you ever came behind a spy with his gun pulled out? 

And didn't you ever think about making the hologram not move?  If you put a hologram in a common spot the merc is going to think it's real.  He could even waste grenade on it, that's a good use.  Getting the merc to go into sniper mode to kill the hologram is another second or two for you to move.  You could use the thing for traps.  But hey, you blew off that point and forgot about it.  Put the holo in a doorway, wait behind the doorway, wait for the merc to come around the corner and charge it, the merc would hit the wall, and you get an easy grab or sticky cam.

And you completely ignored my idea about making a hologram walk into a dark area.  The merc is going to search the area and find nothing because the hologram went through the wall.  That would give you time to move.  What about making the hologram turn off and on?  Oh, you ignored that too.  Who is going to see a convincing hologram and say "oh damn I better turn on Motion to make sure that he isn't a just a hologram so I don't waste my ammo on him!"  No one will do that.  They are going to try to pump the thing full of lead until they realize they aren't hitting anything.  Or if they think they missed every shot they could continue to chase it buying you even more time.

Think outside the box Vega, because you are locked in it as of now.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 12:04:55 PM
About the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.

Aside from that, we can forget about holospies that run around and all that crap. CT maps aren't wide open spaces. They've got boxes and signs, and all manner of crap in the way. The fact that the spy can walk through objects will be very obvious. As is the fact that it's running and not making a sound.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 17, 2008, 01:01:23 PM
1.  You don't have to make the spy run.  Even if you do you could use an alarm snare to produce the "sound" the holo makes.

2. It's all about placement.  No one is going to place a holo so it runs right through "a sign or any matter of crap".  Keep in mind this isn't CT and maps will be bigger/darker (so I hear).

3. CT maps have plenty of spaces where they are open.  They don't have to be atrium size either.

4. How can you think that would be the only use for it?  Try flashing the image of a spy near a merc.  He'll check it out.  I'm talking about turning it on/off.  Think about sending it into the shadows, that would make the merc check the shadows and area thoroughly.  Think about deploying one and attacking a merc aggro style.  Think about using one for a trap.  Think about deploying one and using it to escape.  There are plenty of uses for it.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 02:39:01 PM
You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 17, 2008, 05:25:00 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 02:39:01 PM
You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.

I put $$ on it that a n00b could fool u personally with it.

A hacking spy holopod would be unfair for one and just incorrect. Can you make a hologram do something as physical as create a fake hack on the mercs screen with a countdown? Nice thought, but thats not the only thing that a hologram would be good for.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Spekkio on February 17, 2008, 06:20:05 PM
QuoteAbout the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.
You forgot one problem with that: to use a hologram in that matter would require that the spy is nearby, so it's not like the mercs are going to turn around and go away once they realize a fake is hacking it.

On top of that, if you throw a hologram at an objective with enough time for it to get to 0 before a merc comes, wouldn't it be better to just hack it yourself???
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 17, 2008, 06:26:29 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 17, 2008, 06:20:05 PM
QuoteAbout the only useful hologram I can think of would be a fake hacking holo. That is, it stands in front of a terminal and hacks, producing a hacking message, and a false hack countdown. When the countdown reaches 0, the holo disappears. But it can get mercs to waste ammo and such running of there.
You forgot one problem with that: to use a hologram in that matter would require that the spy is nearby, so it's not like the mercs are going to turn around and go away once they realize a fake is hacking it.

Why would it require the spy was nearby. I could shoot the thing and drop a floor. aaaaaaaaand im gone...;)
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 17, 2008, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 17, 2008, 02:39:01 PM
You're underestimating players' ability to adapt. Once you add this to the game, people will be actively looking for holospies. IF you see a spy pop out of nowhere without walking there, then you're pretty much sure it's a holospy, unless the game is lagging horribly.

I just can't see this gadget actually fooling anyone besides a total newbie.

Can you tell me the difference between a spy and a spy?  That's basically what this is.  Holo looks exactly like a spy.  How would this not fool anyone?  You seem to think that everyone has these special visions in which they can physically tell the difference between a hologram and a spy.  No one does.  And to make its movements and actions believable it would have to be cleverly placed by the spy.  No smart spy is going to make it appear out of nowhere, or go into a wall, or right towards a merc.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: AgentX_003 on February 17, 2008, 08:13:08 PM
one thing ill remind you guys of , is we are all gunna be noobs when this comes out soo get your head out of your asses , cause everything is redesigned from scratch, we are all not gunna know all the maps.

In a weeks time i doubt it , in a couple of months maybe every nick and cranny for 2 maps


AND ITS A NEW ENGINE SO THEREFORE ITS GUNNA BE SIMILAR TO CT BUT WITH A DIFFERENT FEEL SO STOP COMPARING, you kids drive me insane
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 18, 2008, 01:10:06 AM
Agent, this mod is based off of CT, so we have every right and intention of comparing them.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 18, 2008, 01:55:56 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2008, 10:14:15 AM
k, wtf are you talking about Vega?  Not all animations or recordings will be the same, so there is the "uniqueness" for ya.  You can't tell me to throw out the idea that would help exhibit unique holograms and then ask me how we will make it so they are unique.

Alright, for the last time, this "uniqueness" will come with a lot of work.  Get that through your head.  If you're going to argue my point, which is how I find it being a waste of time, at least do it properly.  Sure I can tell you to throw out the "recording moves" idea, again, I find this a waste of time.  There is simplicity to CT that draws in noobs, and complexity to keep people sucked in.  Your POS idea defies this common theme CT has. 

When are you going to "record" your holograms moves?  During game?  Before game?  In your account setup?  All three options are horrible.  This is a huge waste of time during game.  This is a huge waste of time for players before the game.  Account setup shouldn't involve tasks like these, and I'm curious at how much work it will require.  Specifically, does it start a single-player game up in a pre-rendered room/map where you click "record" and then "stop" when you're done doing your move?  Do you hit "record" and it records the next 5 seconds of animation?  Do you have multiple recordings to choose from in-game.  Sounds overly complex for a simple game interface.  I find these ideas a waste of time.  No other gadget in CT requires crap like this to be done.  It's as if you're asking a gadget to be calibrated as you do a joystick.  Gadgets come pre-calibrated, holopod does not.  Ditch the holopod.

QuoteAnd you made me lol, to be honest.  Those little things you tell it to do would just be there to make the hologram more believable.  Who would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?  You jump to conclusions way to quickly, with no stops in between.  Atleast stop and think about how the player would use them.  Obviously the player wouldn't tell it to go toward a crate, first of all. (haha now you are underestimating spies and overestimating mercs, when will this end  :D)  The player would tell it to pull out its gun to maybe make it look like the spy is using hbs.  Haven't you ever came behind a spy with his gun pulled out?

Glad I made you laugh out loud, that was idea when describing your comical holopod idea.  This is great, instead of an "auto-pilot" feature, you're leaning towards a alteration of the player-controlled hologram idea.  Now, I know you're going to get your panties in a bunch when you read that last sentence, but hear me out.  You made a great contradiction with the effectiveness of this gadget, with these two quotes alone;
QuoteWho would tell the hologram to roll when it's going toward a crate?
QuoteA merc knows you are at a position, and you put one of these babies down and have him go in a random direction.

If you're going to go through the hassle and tell your image when to roll, jump, crouch, etc. then I ask you; what the hell are you currently doing?  Clearly your attention is going to be set on your image, so how are you going to make your great escape?  The chances of it rolling/running through a crate will be high if you're not paying attention to it.  How are you going to use this amazing gadget as a means of escape if your telling it when to roll when you're not able to see it?  Oh yeah, I'm going to be "distracted" by this non-threatening image and you'll get away scot-free, right?  God damn, this is such a shitty gadget in so many situations that I'm tempted to make entire thread bashing your skewed sense of perception.

QuoteAnd didn't you ever think about making the hologram not move?  If you put a hologram in a common spot the merc is going to think it's real.  He could even waste grenade on it, that's a good use.  Getting the merc to go into sniper mode to kill the hologram is another second or two for you to move.  You could use the thing for traps.  But hey, you blew off that point and forgot about it.  Put the holo in a doorway, wait behind the doorway, wait for the merc to come around the corner and charge it, the merc would hit the wall, and you get an easy grab or sticky cam.

Hahaha um, I figured you wouldn't be that thick to think of this as a viable reason for the hologram.  There are so few times this would work, not to mention it looking hilarious to see a spy just standing in a door way.  I wouldn't charge him like an idiot, a tactic you seem to be accustomed with -- I would shoot him in the head.  "OH BUT YOU WASTED TIME TO SHOOT THE IMAGE AND I WAS BEHIND YOU THE WHOLE TIME."  Can you please stop with the noob scenarios? 

QuoteAnd you completely ignored my idea about making a hologram walk into a dark area.  The merc is going to search the area and find nothing because the hologram went through the wall.  That would give you time to move.

Walk into a dark area?  It's horse shit, that's why.  Very situational and pointless and you barely gain anything from it.  You're basically playing the "baiting game" as you do with a cam, however a cam knocks out a merc for a total of 8-10 seconds if successful.  I've already thought of the greatest situations this hologram would benefit from, but there is no point to explaining them all, I still simply think it sucks too much to be worthy of a gadget. 

QuoteWhat about making the hologram turn off and on?  Oh, you ignored that too.
You got a little excited with this post, didn't you?  Don't get ahead of yourself:
Quote from: Vega on February 15, 2008, 02:40:28 AMBeing able to turn this on and off is bad for balance, nothing in SvM is like that besides a cam.  Besides, that's to serve as a recon tool only after the gas has already been exhausted.

Quote from: Papa Skull on February 17, 2008, 10:14:15 AMWho is going to see a convincing hologram and say "oh damn I better turn on Motion to make sure that he isn't a just a hologram so I don't waste my ammo on him!"  No one will do that.  They are going to try to pump the thing full of lead until they realize they aren't hitting anything.  Or if they think they missed every shot they could continue to chase it buying you even more time.

Hahahahaa oh god, your experience on the PC is so limited it's not even funny.  This is OK to say since this game is made for the PC.  I don't know if you were aware about this, playing on xbox and all, but many people whore MT and or flip visions very often.  Your point is very mute and barely worth my time. 

QuoteThink outside the box Vega, because you are locked in it as of now.

Funny enough you tell me to look outside the box when you don't even understand my post.  Guess it's typical coming from stubborn, misinformed, nescient Papa Skull.  Better put those training wheels back on, Papa, you're still learning.
 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 18, 2008, 02:46:22 AM
Judging by all of the questions you asked me it has brought me to a conclusion.  You are misinformed and you haven't read all posts.  Will it do this?  Will it do that?  How about you think about it and give us a suggestion omnicsient one!  This idea isn't set in stone, it's better to get all ideas out and pick out the ones that might not work and work on the ones that could. 

Keep in mind, (I thought agent screaming it would be enough) that THIS IS NOT CT.  No one is to know what will happen with the game as of now.  MT is being nerfed, changed, implemented properly whatever you want to call it.  This is going to decrease the amount of MT whores we have going around.  Flipping visions is common on all versions but won't matter because if a hologram doesn't show up on EMF it doesn't mean it isn't real.  BUT, since your head is still stuck back in the CT days you can only see possibilities and scenarios happening in CT.  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX VEGA, ffs.  CT is the box, get out of it.  Inspiration is coming from the past SvM games, not an exact copy.

You could record these in game, before the game, whenever.  And if you can't find time to make some custom recordings then set it to autopilot (goes in a generally straight line).  I've listed plenty of instances where this would be of use.  You still seem to be underestimating the intelligence of spies and overestimating the intelligence of mercs, which is funny because they go hand in hand, no distinct team will be smarter than the other by default.  :D

Tell me, what kind of spy will send a hologram straight into a box?  Only a mentally handicapped one.  And I'm not entirely positive, but I don't think there are many of those around.  ;)  I don't think there are any mercs who would be able to tell a holo from a real spy at first glance either, unless the spy who deployed it was idiotic.  It's a gadget you'll have to use wisely.  What's wrong with that?  If noobs don't want to use the gadget because it's overly complex, not that complex anyways, then they don't have to use it.  You have to get used to every gadget to learn how to use them effectively.  Quit making this one sound like they have to reprogram a computer to get this to work.

Oh, and it wasn't my idea.  This idea was around long before I even came to the forums.  I just support it, as do others.

If you come around a corner, and you see a spy with his back turned and maybe slowly moving, are you going to really try and shoot him in the head?  Why not just take the easier approach and charge the "spy"?  When a spy has his back turned and he is crouched, it's much easier to charge him than to try and pull a quick headshot.

And what is your say on how helpful this will be for aggro players?  Let me guess, it won't be useful right? lol  Don't forget that quick cams are going to be harder to pull off now, and that stealth is going to be a much much much more viable option than aggro.  There needs to be some more aggro capabilities.  What with tazer being boosted dramatically, darker maps, nerfed visions, boosted camo, etc... I've already explained this thoroughly.  I don't feel like explaining it again.  Aggro needs some boost.  This would help it a good amount.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 18, 2008, 03:32:33 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2008, 02:46:22 AM
Judging by all of the questions you asked me it has brought me to a conclusion.  You are misinformed and you haven't read all posts.  Will it do this?  Will it do that?  How about you think about it and give us a suggestion omnicsient one!  This idea isn't set in stone, it's better to get all ideas out and pick out the ones that might not work and work on the ones that could.

Misinformed?  You mean the constant babble?  So am I supposed to assume everything everyone has said, whether it contradicts each other or not, is supposed to be the final product?  You missed the whole point of asking questions.  Those questions are there for possible situations to this gadget, all of which I refute with reasons.  As with most arguments, this one flew over your head.  If you noticed, I actually gave possible situations, but I counter them to prove my point.

QuoteKeep in mind, (I thought agent screaming it would be enough) that THIS IS NOT CT.  No one is to know what will happen with the game as of now.  MT is being nerfed, changed, implemented properly whatever you want to call it.  This is going to decrease the amount of MT whores we have going around.  Flipping visions is common on all versions but won't matter because if a hologram doesn't show up on EMF it doesn't mean it isn't real.  BUT, since your head is still stuck back in the CT days you can only see possibilities and scenarios happening in CT.  THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX VEGA, ffs.  CT is the box, get out of it.  Inspiration is coming from the past SvM games, not an exact copy.

Look, if you're going to use the whole "THIS ISN'T CT!" excuse, you might as well shut your own mouth.  No one has played this game yet, but we're comparing it to CT because that's what this game is based off of.  Inspiration is coming solely from splinter cell and splinter cell only.  It's not like we have a large genre of "SvM" out there.  There's PT, CT, and DA.  Quit telling me to think outside the box, I've done so many times and can look at the game for what it is -- you cannot. 

You thought it was a good idea to leave bodies in the game.  Not to mention that you could grab items from them and move them around.  Thinking outside the box?  The only thing I can give you a pat on the back for is your loyalty to Project Stealth and willingness to improve the game.  However, that comes at a price; your arrogance and lack of understanding of what SvM is.  With many of your ideas, you don't capture the essence of what SvM is -- just some shitty effect to make it "cool."

QuoteYou could record these in game, before the game, whenever.  And if you can't find time to make some custom recordings then set it to autopilot (goes in a generally straight line).  I've listed plenty of instances where this would be of use.  You still seem to be underestimating the intelligence of spies and overestimating the intelligence of mercs, which is funny because they go hand in hand, no distinct team will be smarter than the other by default.  :D

I've given plenty of reasons why this won't be as useful as you may think.  I'm not going to talk about this anymore as we're getting more and more redundant with each post.

QuoteTell me, what kind of spy will send a hologram straight into a box?  Only a mentally handicapped one.  And I'm not entirely positive, but I don't think there are many of those around.  ;)  I don't think there are any mercs who would be able to tell a holo from a real spy at first glance either, unless the spy who deployed it was idiotic.  It's a gadget you'll have to use wisely.  What's wrong with that?  If noobs don't want to use the gadget because it's overly complex, not that complex anyways, then they don't have to use it.  You have to get used to every gadget to learn how to use them effectively.  Quit making this one sound like they have to reprogram a computer to get this to work.

Oh, and it wasn't my idea.  This idea was around long before I even came to the forums.  I just support it, as do others.

Again, this is getting redundant.  Not re-writing the same arguments.

QuoteIf you come around a corner, and you see a spy with his back turned and maybe slowly moving, are you going to really try and shoot him in the head?  Why not just take the easier approach and charge the "spy"?  When a spy has his back turned and he is crouched, it's much easier to charge him than to try and pull a quick headshot.

You'd be amazed how efficient some people are on the PC with quick headshots.  As I've felt for a long time, you have much to learn when you change to the PC.

QuoteAnd what is your say on how helpful this will be for aggro players?  Let me guess, it won't be useful right? lol  Don't forget that quick cams are going to be harder to pull off now, and that stealth is going to be a much much much more viable option than aggro.  There needs to be some more aggro capabilities.  What with tazer being boosted dramatically, darker maps, nerfed visions, boosted camo, etc... I've already explained this thoroughly.  I don't feel like explaining it again.  Aggro needs some boost.  This would help it a good amount.

I was unaware that cams are going to be "harder to pull off."  Care to explain?  You have the tendency to make your word come across as official, which I beg to differ.

EDIT:  Spelling.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 18, 2008, 03:49:30 AM
I've heard from many people, and I may be mistaken, but there will be a delay between the sticky cam activation and when it's deployed.  Meaning it takes a second for it to set up.  It might not be fact, I thought I've heard that from  the devs so don't take that as fact.  And there were other reasons other than delayed quick cams.  Like nerfed MT will decrease the amount of whores DRASTICALLY.  I'm not using "this isn't CT" as an excuse.  I'm telling you that anything is possible as of now, quit making it seem like nothing but the same formula is.

Leaving bodies in the game was solely a tool for creating suspense and fear.  The backpack thing might not have been a good idea, I'll admit.  But then, a lot of ideas are crap.  Just trying to throw things out on the table to maybe make something good develop from the community's feedback and input.  You've hardly given anything to help the idea - You just go "ZOMG IT"S 2 ComPLCIATED FOR SPIZ and ITZ OVBVIOS!!"  It's not, it's pretty simple, and if you are smart you can use it effectively.  Same with any other gadget, if you are stupid, you aren't going to use it effectively.  Plain and simple.  Btw, nothing is wrong with making effects to make the game cooler.  What's wrong with a cool game?  As long as balance remains, why not add cool things if it's possible?

Your final product argument is weak.  It's developing, you just keep trying to slow the development down with your pointless examples.  You seem to try and make things seem worse or better than they really are to try and prove your point.  (overestimating mercs/underestimating spies, for example).  I could run down countless examples of where it would be useful, and countless examples of where it would be useless.  But then again, EVERY SINGLE GADGET IS USELESS IN SOME SITUATIONS!  It depends on how/where/when the player uses it.  Are you going to tell me that every other is useless because some imaginary retarded spy uses it the wrong way?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 18, 2008, 03:57:22 PM
Vega. Ask me the questions and I'll give you straight answers. Recordings would come with already created presets that can be changed by you outside of world lobby. You can't just go in and change the recording because your HD and the game has to recognize what you've changed.

This idea does not defy the "common theme" set up with the SvM series. In fact its still the same. Don't try and make it seem like this gadget idea is "taking away from everything SvM has to offer." Please. When I say keep an open mind, I'm telling you not to be a douche and actually consider the gadget. All you've been saying is that its a waste of time. Thats not very open minded. And don't try and accuse Papa of constant babble when thats all the people negating it are doing.

I will admit, Papa's idea about leaving dead bodies doesn't work for this game. This was already discussed and has no purpose here anymore. Its not that hard to let go of is it? Are you really going to dwell like that?

Also, you're a moron to think that a paused image of a spy wouldn't fool the mind for one second. Please, don't try and downplay it because you have this "I'm L33T" feeling because you've played CT for sometime. Its not a noob scenario, and it was actually my idea to pause the hologram if you wanted to. Post a noob scenario for it, and I'll counter it. It can only be a noob scenario if you (the noob) make it one....get it?

Papa did say thatb there was no official word as the cam coming off later. I've posted it a few times on the HBS thread to nerf quick cams as an idea. There was nothing official about it, as Papa clearly stated, so don't try to jump down his spine.....you can jump on mine tho.

Stop saying Papa has much to learn. He's played on XBox for some time. Doesn't mean he's a noob at the game. There are different things he will be exposed to, yes. Doesn't mean he has "much to learn." If you think about it, you probably do to.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 19, 2008, 04:14:30 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 18, 2008, 03:49:30 AM
I'm not using "this isn't CT" as an excuse.  I'm telling you that anything is possible as of now, quit making it seem like nothing but the same formula is.

Papa, it goes both ways.  You can't argue that it's going to be very different from CT, when you have no clue yourself.  You have no idea how different this is going to be from CT, so stop being a hypocrite.  If we're going to say "stop comparing CT," then we might as well stop balance discussion altogether. 

QuoteIt's not, it's pretty simple, and if you are smart you can use it effectively.  Same with any other gadget, if you are stupid, you aren't going to use it effectively.  Plain and simple.  Btw, nothing is wrong with making effects to make the game cooler.  What's wrong with a cool game?  As long as balance remains, why not add cool things if it's possible?

This discussion has gone on for way too long and needs to stop.  You posted your argument, I posted mine.  I'm done with it.  On to the cool effects part; nothing wrong with adding cool effects, but you add non-essential stuff that detracts from the theme of CT.  Simple as that.  I've stated it before and I'm not going to state it again. 

QuoteYour final product argument is weak.  It's developing, you just keep trying to slow the development down with your pointless examples.  You seem to try and make things seem worse or better than they really are to try and prove your point.  (overestimating mercs/underestimating spies, for example).  I could run down countless examples of where it would be useful, and countless examples of where it would be useless.  But then again, EVERY SINGLE GADGET IS USELESS IN SOME SITUATIONS!  It depends on how/where/when the player uses it.  Are you going to tell me that every other is useless because some imaginary retarded spy uses it the wrong way?

I disagree with the pointless examples, and I'm not into making this topic go any farther because it's frankly a waste of time now.  I'm not overestimating mercs and underestimating spies, I'm taking the given situation and playing it out how I realistically see it happening.

Of course every single gadget is useless in some situations, but for most gadgets (exclude tazer and flares) they perform well in a high number of situations.  I stated multiple reasons why and I simply see the Holopod not an important enough role to fit in as a gadget.  Not to mention I find it a waste of time.  You're still focused on the notion that I base my arguments on "unintelligent spies" when that has nothing to do with my reasons.  To answer simply and quickly; no, I don't think players will purposely roll a spy into a box --  that isn't the point.  The point was; in your given situation that a spy being able to give holograms moving commands which supposedly gives the spy a chance to escape, were flawed because of the spy's lack of visual attention towards his hologram due to his focused visual attention on escaping.  He's either controlling and watching his hologram play out the commands, or he's escaping.  He can't escape if he can't see his image.

Quote from: Westfall-US on February 18, 2008, 03:57:22 PM
Vega. Ask me the questions and I'll give you straight answers. Recordings would come with already created presets that can be changed by you outside of world lobby. You can't just go in and change the recording because your HD and the game has to recognize what you've changed.

My questions are there, which were to prove a point, but if you want to answer them then be my guest.

QuoteThis idea does not defy the "common theme" set up with the SvM series. In fact its still the same. Don't try and make it seem like this gadget idea is "taking away from everything SvM has to offer." Please. When I say keep an open mind, I'm telling you not to be a douche and actually consider the gadget. All you've been saying is that its a waste of time. Thats not very open minded. And don't try and accuse Papa of constant babble when thats all the people negating it are doing.

That was certainly part of my argument, but I provided many examples why I found this idea flawed.  The fact that you're telling me to not be a douche and be open-minded is completely ironic when you're taking one part of my argument and representing it as the whole.  Take your own medicine Westfall.

QuoteI will admit, Papa's idea about leaving dead bodies doesn't work for this game. This was already discussed and has no purpose here anymore. Its not that hard to let go of is it? Are you really going to dwell like that?

That was simply brought up to prove a point.  He said I don't think outside the box, so I commented on his way of doing so.  Drop the false accusations.

QuoteAlso, you're a moron to think that a paused image of a spy wouldn't fool the mind for one second. Please, don't try and downplay it because you have this "I'm L33T" feeling because you've played CT for sometime. Its not a noob scenario, and it was actually my idea to pause the hologram if you wanted to. Post a noob scenario for it, and I'll counter it. It can only be a noob scenario if you (the noob) make it one....get it?

Um, Westfall, this coming from you is especially surprising.  Who is the first to admit he sucks at CT?  Me.  I openly admit it all the time, I don't give a shit if I'm bad at a game I never play anymore.  Yes, this is a noob scenario.  The only time this would be remotely useful is if you turn a corner and see a spy so you therefore charge.  Then, you would have to play off of this by having a cam nearby, using camo and having the charing merc pass you and take your decoy at bait, and possibly others.  This will require quite a bit of time and timing and I find it not very plausible (sound?  EAX?).  However, this raises questions in itself but I'm not up for arguing the same shit for another 5 pages.  But whatever, suit yourself if you think this rocks so much. 

QuotePapa did say thatb there was no official word as the cam coming off later. I've posted it a few times on the HBS thread to nerf quick cams as an idea. There was nothing official about it, as Papa clearly stated, so don't try to jump down his spine.....you can jump on mine tho.

I genuinely asked the question and just added a side comment afterwards.  It's true, Papa often acts as if his word means it's official.

QuoteStop saying Papa has much to learn. He's played on XBox for some time. Doesn't mean he's a noob at the game. There are different things he will be exposed to, yes. Doesn't mean he has "much to learn." If you think about it, you probably do to.

I never said anything in this post about him being a noob at playing the game.  He mentioned about me not thinking out of the box, so I told him he needs to "learn."  I don't believe he understands the game for what it is, inside or out.  That is what I meant by "learning."
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 19, 2008, 04:18:21 AM
QuoteThat was certainly part of my argument, but I provided many examples why I found this idea flawed.  The fact that you're telling me to not be a douche and be open-minded is completely ironic when you're taking one part of my argument and representing it as the whole.  Take your own medicine Westfall.

As far as I'm concerned, you asked 1 question: when to record. I don't see any other questions directed about the gadget itself. So theres no medicine left for me to take.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 19, 2008, 04:20:53 AM
I already filled out your last prescription at the pharmacy you a-hole!  You can go on ritalin binges like dimmy!  Hooray!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 19, 2008, 04:59:20 AM
oh man....dimmy and i live like kings..don't you worry.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 19, 2008, 01:23:54 PM
Reopened. Don't act like children.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Cyntrox on February 19, 2008, 03:37:32 PM
I was going to say something smart, but then the thread was locked and now I forgot it.

DAMNIT!
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Ion.67 on February 19, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?

He is still better than you. He played the pc version.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: AgentX_003 on February 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 19, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?

He is still better than you. He played the pc version.

and ill add he was good at one point but something something out bla blaa " stopped caring " , then  now is the failure he is today  which = why people say Vega sucks on Sclamers and so on . =/.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 20, 2008, 03:30:52 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 19, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?

He is still better than you. He played the pc version.

and ill add he was good at one point but something something out bla blaa " stopped caring " , then  now is the failure he is today  which = why people say Vega sucks on Sclamers and so on . =/.

"Vega Sucks" is an inside joke that just pokes fun at him.
He doesn't actually suck.

You are retarded for taking that literally.

I mean, really...
If there is one person that almost everyone secretly (but consistently) finds annoying, it's you.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Westfall on February 20, 2008, 03:40:28 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on February 20, 2008, 03:30:52 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 19, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?

He is still better than you. He played the pc version.

and ill add he was good at one point but something something out bla blaa " stopped caring " , then  now is the failure he is today  which = why people say Vega sucks on Sclamers and so on . =/.

"Vega Sucks" is an inside joke that just pokes fun at him.
He doesn't actually suck.

You are retarded for taking that literally.

I mean, really...
If there is one person that almost everyone secretly (but consistently) finds annoying, it's you.

Whoa boy....whoa *pats horse on neck*
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: MR.Mic on February 20, 2008, 03:41:44 AM
I was merely speaking the truth.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Farley4Fan on February 20, 2008, 05:30:01 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 19, 2008, 11:28:17 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 19, 2008, 07:00:12 AM
Like you said Vega, you aren't a good player.  So who the hell are you to say what a good merc would do if he saw one of these things?

He is still better than you. He played the pc version.

Lol, now THAT makes sense.  He's better than me at PC version, but I'll guarantee I'd kill him on console version.  All of you PC elitist assholes can stfu.  That's not pointed at all the PC players, not at all, but all the people that think that PC is the way more superior version than console versions.  Don't act like console sucks when you haven't played it either.  And I don't go to SClamers, so I don't know about all the inside jokes, big deal.  How am I retarded for not knowing an inside joke when I was never there when it started?

What don't you guys get?  Seriously now.  This has got to be the 10th time I've stuck up for console version and its players.  For the last god damn time.

You guys are much better than me at PC version.  I, and other players like Invisible and other console players, are probably much better than you at console version.  It ALL boils down to preferance of controls, other than that, there are few differences that I can point out between the two versions.  I've logged in a few more hours on CT but my xfire thingy doesn't show that for some reason, so I can't really prove it to you.  With 10 hours, plus the month of gametime where I had CT for PC when it came out, I can tell you a few differences:

- Flash bangs are much less effective on PC version than on console.
- A good amount more of motion whores on PC than on console.  Although there are still a bunch of those on console.\
- Controls, of course.
- A bit better snipers on PC than on console, that goes for just plain shooting in general.
- Mercs can turn a bit quicker on PC, but not that much quicker depending on the console players ability to quick turn.
- Spies spam nades a bit more.
- Camo is absolute garbage on xbox live now because if you have a 360 there is a bright green outline around the spy in camo.  It's much more useful on PC.

And some other minor ones.  But does all that really make PC more OMFG elite?  Nah, not really.  It just boils down to preference and you can get used to the differences.  It also depends on the people you play with.  There are few good players who play console anymore solely because of the shiny new games that are out.  Just adjust to the changes.  Different =/= better.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 20, 2008, 06:21:14 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
and ill add he was good at one point but something something out bla blaa " stopped caring " , then  now is the failure he is today  which = why people say Vega sucks on Sclamers and so on . =/.

Martin you can't honestly think people care about my playing ability.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: InvisibleMan999 on February 21, 2008, 11:44:44 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 20, 2008, 05:30:01 AM
- Flash bangs are much less effective on PC version than on console.
- A good amount more of motion whores on PC than on console.  Although there are still a bunch of those on console.\
- Controls, of course.
- A bit better snipers on PC than on console, that goes for just plain shooting in general.
- Mercs can turn a bit quicker on PC, but not that much quicker depending on the console players ability to quick turn.
- Spies spam nades a bit more.
- Camo is absolute garbage on xbox live now because if you have a 360 there is a bright green outline around the spy in camo.  It's much more useful on PC.
Don't forget about EAX. That one is huge.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gawain on February 21, 2008, 04:48:39 PM
i'd bet money that vega can play better than agent and that both will always play better than papaskull. but who cares? if there's one point of this discussion, it's that papaskull should realize that when better players reject an idea repeatedly he should stfu and not go on spamming the same shit over and over again just because the idea sounds fancy.
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Gui Brazil on February 21, 2008, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on February 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
and ill add he was good at one point but something something out bla blaa " stopped caring " , then  now is the failure he is today  which = why people say Vega sucks on Sclamers and so on . =/.


Atleast he's fun to play with?
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: Vega on February 21, 2008, 05:33:37 PM
Guys, we're just dropping this altogether.  This has gone on long enough. 
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: neth on February 21, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
You guys still remember what was this topic about, cause now youre discussing about: "pc vs consoles" and "What does it mean that vega sucks and does he really ?"
Title: Re: merc confusion gadget
Post by: frvge on February 21, 2008, 06:08:00 PM
K, locked. If you want to continue to discuss another form of a Merc Confusion Gadget than the holopod, please make a new thread.