SCCT Versus Maps

[CurdyMilk]

Curdy, most of what you say is irrelevant.

The relevant part is that whoever made these maps released them to a community for free; ergo, they are fair game as long as you don't use them to make a profit of your own.

If you want to charge money for PS, then you need their permission or need to pay them for it.

Using an updated version of Zioplex and Oilrig wouldn't be a bad start to the game.

Ok Ok.  I meant that too and agree.  Well, if the "free" maps don't work out, then they don't work out.  I understand that you want to take extra precaution with the legal rights.  It was just a thought.  Maybe they will become handy sometime if you find the creator (such as State Union that tigaer mentioned).  At least they could be used for ideas or just for personal fun.  I also think an updated map pack would be good.   

[Spekkio]

Yea, I didn't see your second post on the matter. You hit the nail on the head: as long as no money is involved, it really doesn't matter.

[LennardF1989]

Yea, I didn't see your second post on the matter. You hit the nail on the head: as long as no money is involved, it really doesn't matter.

It does matter, as long as the creator didn't put a license on it, it doesn't matter wheter the map was on the internet for free or for pay, we simply can't use it in a real game without explicit permission. That is the authorship-law we all fall under. Unless they transfer authorship to us, or give us written conscent, using a map is illegal. Besides that we don't have the manpower to make "inspired by" maps.

Now, the ones made by Element and Zedblade in the UMP package are easy to talk about, but we really need the names of the authors of the other ones before even attempting to port them.

[Westfall]

As far as PS is concerned, you could make a replica of any of those maps and call it your own. You could even make a profit off of it. You aren't using these maps for CT, they are for a completely different game. Change a few things, and it would only resemble the maps...it's yours. Different game goes a long way when things are neither licensed or copywritten in any way.

Morally, it would be shitty... But you could get away with it.

[frvge]

Many people think you have to file something to get 'copyright'. You don't file anything. The code I wrote for the website? Its copyright is mine. You own what you make. We didn't make those maps, so we don't own it. If you don't own it, you can't use it. Unless there's a license with it that gives you that right. Notice that there's nothing money-related there? Legality has nothing to do with whether it's free or not.

[Westfall]

Many people think you have to file something to get 'copyright'. You don't file anything. The code I wrote for the website? Its copyright is mine. You own what you make. We didn't make those maps, so we don't own it. If you don't own it, you can't use it. Unless there's a license with it that gives you that right. Notice that there's nothing money-related there? Legality has nothing to do with whether it's free or not.

I could take your code, change a little bit of it and pose it as my own and make people pay for advertisement space on it. Then what do you do? What legal action can you take against me?

Just like these maps. Change the smallest things and it can become yours. Happens all the time in music....take a riff, expound upon it and BAM $$$$$$.

[tigaer]

Let's just put aside the fact that it could be done and say that it won't be done. It would be a lot easier and more exciting to design new maps, instead of taking somebody else's old design and calling it our own.

[frvge]

Let's just put aside the fact that it could be done and say that it won't be done. It would be a lot easier and more exciting to design new maps, instead of taking somebody else's old design and calling it our own.

Is another good point of view. So I'd like to leave it at this.

[Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet]

Let's just put aside the fact that it could be done and say that it won't be done. It would be a lot easier and more exciting to design new maps, instead of taking somebody else's old design and calling it our own.

IMO if you openly say that it's a remake, and the person hits you up and disaggrees with you porting it, then you shouldn't. However I doubt anyone here wouldn't like their name in the credit roll of PS.

[CurdyMilk]

It would be a lot easier and more exciting to design new maps.

More exciting? Yes.
Easier? I could argue with that.

Quality is better than quantity, but little quantity is not great either.  At this rate I can see 2 maybe 3 maps coming out of this game from scratch (which is understandable considering the lack of man power present) unless a) you find more map makers, b) more are made after release, or c) you use the map pack maps.  I just thought some variety with these could spice it up a bit.  But the point is that you are not going to do so.
The court has adjourned!

Anyways...
Leonard have the maps you have downloaded so far been working?  Do you have any thoughts/impressions up to this point?  It looks like you have downloaded the first three, but some of the best ones are yet to come.  :)

[Spekkio]

Many people think you have to file something to get 'copyright'. You don't file anything. The code I wrote for the website? Its copyright is mine. You own what you make. We didn't make those maps, so we don't own it. If you don't own it, you can't use it. Unless there's a license with it that gives you that right. Notice that there's nothing money-related there? Legality has nothing to do with whether it's free or not.

No one said anything about taking credit for someone else's work. By all means, I agree that you should credit the map makers where applicable. But that is irrelevant to copyright, and very relevant to plagiarism. You do not need to site authors or sources to invoke fair use.

While you are correct that there is no active process for a copyright, when a person releases a product for free use, such as a custom map that is downloadable from public free-ware websites, there is an implicit permission granted to use that person's work. The term is called "fair use." You only go into infringement territory if you attempt to attempt to make a profit from it.

A parallel can be drawn from a website owner who came under fire for using someone else's photos:

On appeal, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals found in favor of the defendant. In reaching its decision, the court utilized the above-mentioned four-factor analysis. First, it found the purpose of creating the thumbnail images as previews to be sufficiently transformative, noting that they were not meant to be viewed at high resolution like the original artwork was. Second, the fact that the photographs had already been published diminished the significance of their nature as creative works. Third, although normally making a "full" replication of a copyrighted work may appear to violate copyright, here it was found to be reasonable and necessary in light of the intended use. Lastly, the court found that the market for the original photographs would not be substantially diminished by the creation of the thumbnails.

How does this relate to maps?

1) the purpose of porting the maps would be sufficiently transformative, as the new Kismet engine alone would add new depths of gameplay not previously seen. The maps would also presumably get significant graphics updates.

2) The fact that the maps are already published and available for free deminish the significance of their nature as creative works

3) Using these maps in their entirety is reasonable and necessary in light of intended use

4) The market for these maps would not be substantially diminished if they were used in PS.

In short: stop getting your panties in a bunch over nothing. If we applied your understanding of copyright, everyone's avatars in this thread are in violation of it.

It would be a lot easier and more exciting to design new maps, instead of taking somebody else's old design and calling it our own.

More exciting yes, easier? No. Most of the custom maps listed suck anyway, so it doesn't really matter...but porting the best 2-3 to get a good basis for beta testing wouldn't be a bad idea, and certainly would be easier than making everything from scratch.

I could take your code, change a little bit of it and pose it as my own and make people pay for advertisement space on it. Then what do you do? What legal action can you take against me?

While you are correct that the process is perfectly legal, anyone can levy legal action against you for it. It is incumbent upon the defendent to prove fair use, not the other way around. While the case would presumably be thrown out, the resulting legal fees would be punishment enough. This is how bigger companies who hire full-time lawyers just for themselves can push around little guys with the mere threat of legal action.

In the case of these maps, though, I highly doubt a upper teens/lower 20 something is going to have enough money to hire a lawyer and want to take the gambit of actually winning a shaky case over maps he made 4-6 years ago.

[YaYz0r]

Here you have most of the maps ever released to the public: http://kll.c-station.net/index.php?site=files&cat=1.

[CurdyMilk]

Here you have most of the maps ever released to the public: http://kll.c-station.net/index.php?site=files&cat=1.

Woah, I guess the other 10% of my prediction was right.  I had never seen this site before probably because it is German or some European language.  It does not have all the maps, such as Station Orbitale or Die Turnhalle, but it has almost all.   Yayz0r is there any way to know who made any of those maps?  If so, could we get a hold of them for permission to use them?  I see two AIM accounts on there but that is the only contact information I can see.

[goodkebab]

Things fall apart though if any of the maps use assets from the original CT maps.  Users may have made the maps, but if UBI finds us using a single asset authored by UBI in PS we are toast.

If fans of PS make their own maps or port them from ANY game,  we cannot stop it from being released to the public.   We just cannot "officially" release it because of copyright violations.


My suggestions to the fan base that want to see a lot of cool maps for PS is to take maps suggested in these threads and port them to the Unreal Editor.  It is just an older version of the same engine.  We would be happy to answer any basic questions like scale and proportions needed to fit the characters.  We are using the exact same scale as CT,  for this very reason.  Anyone that wants make a map for PS will be able to play test it in CT.

Probably the best way to get official Dev status on PS is start with that.

[Spekkio]

Things fall apart though if any of the maps use assets from the original CT maps.  Users may have made the maps, but if UBI finds us using a single asset authored by UBI in PS we are toast.

That's not true. That's analogous to Weird Al Yankovich using the exact same melody and beat to parady songs, but changing the lyrics. It is not copyright infringement to take parts of someone else's ideas and morph them into your own.