"Classic" SvM also implemented in Blacklist!

[Spark Mandriller]

It does simplify it. In CT you have to worry about lives and time. In Blacklist you just worry about time. One thing is simpler than two, right?

I wasn't saying the game was similar to CoD, just that CoD is a good example of a simple game. Your health recharges so you don't need to worry about managing it, all the weapons are hitscan so they're real easy to aim, and everyone moves slowly (even slower when using sights, and they need to do that to be accurate) so they're easy targets. You compare that to Quake 3 or something and it's much much easier to play, but also much more successful. Same with Blacklist, it'll be simpler and easier to play than CT, but because of that it'll probably do better.

[VaNilla]

It's simpler to ride a bike than operate a plane. What's more challenging to race across a large mountain, the bike or the plane? With the bike you have mountainous terrain, trees and rocks to avoid, uneven surfaces, and so on. In a plane you have to think about the fastest way to fly across the mountain, and that's fairly simple. Despite being harder to operate, the person operating the plane will find it much easier to cross the mountain than the guy on the bike.

What's my point? Just because you have to think about limited lives in CT, doesn't mean you don't think about unlimited lives in Blacklist. You have limited opportunities to hack the objective within the timelimit, and lives are the only way to facilitate your journey through the game. If you keep dying, you're going to set yourself back on the journey to victory. So using your lives effectively is still very important, and not only that, but the game is more complex in the sense that you have to think about the objectives in order to to win the match; you can't simply focus on killing the opposing team. The landscapes of CT and Blacklist look very similar from a distance, but regardless of having a simplified variable in Blacklist (lives), the game is still more complex than CT. You can make a variable more accessible (like a bike), and still have the game be more complex and rewarding overall (like awarding points).

[Spark Mandriller]

You lost time for dying in CT too, dude. And killing the mercs off never happened if they were at all competent, and in any case having multiple ways to win is still more complex than just one.
I think you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me now.

[VaNilla]

I'm disagreeing with you because the arguments you're making are invalid, have no basis in fact, and they're potentially misleading to people reading the forum. As you said in another thread, "I show up to save the day whenever people are saying stupid shit." I think I've said enough.

[Spark Mandriller]

"Having one way to lose is simpler than having two ways to lose."

FUCKING INVALID LIES RIGHT HERE

[VaNilla]

In a race between a bike and a plane... (do you get it now)? The bike is easier to operate than the plane, but the terrain is much more complicated to cross with the bike than the plane. Having infinite lives is simpler than limited lives by itself, but Blacklist's objective is still more complex than PT/CT's, because you can't simply kill your way to victory. You have to utilise kills to aid hacking the objectives, you can't choose to ignore the objectives and simply kill the opposing team. This is one of many things that leads to a more complex and yet accessible experience with Blacklist.

EDIT: As mentioned in the other topic, I'm done with you.

[Spark Mandriller]

You couldn't just choose to kill the merc team in CT either, unless you were a thousand times better than them. Have you played CT? Because between this, failing to understand that you couldn't kill people from the front as spy, and not realising mercs could kill people nearly instantly if they got clear shots, I'm starting to suspect you haven't.

[VaNilla]

It was an option regardless of how difficult it was to complete with even teams. I never said that you could kill people from the front as a spy, and I even specified that fast kills are "certainly new against unscoped rifles", because they are. The rifle has a far lower rate of fire than it does in Blacklist, even though 4-6 bullets would kill you in CT. I wasn't talking about the Uzi, because it's not a rifle. And I specified before, I rarely played a game against someone who used the Uzi, because it was so unbalanced.

Click here to check my profile, my original username was "STON3COLDKILLA", and I joined in 2006 while still playing Chaos Theory online. I even registered before you, if that helps to clarify :).

EDIT: Changed "I never said that you couldn't kill people" to "could kill people", if you're wondering about the late edit.

[Spark Mandriller]

I realise you're Stone, dude. Like I'm gonna forget that sig? We had that cool friendly discussion over whether it was possibly to play Conviction stealthily in which we were very friendly and parted as friends. I'm just talking shit about your CT experience since apparently it was completely different to mine.

Also I thought you weren't responding to me anymore.

[VaNilla]

Well shit dude, I guess I am :P. My first port of call was never to go for kills against good players in PT/CT, the objective was the main way to win if you're up against skilled people. But while playing the game I would constantly go for kills, not only because they put the mercs out of action for extended periods of time, but because you could also end up winning the game if you killed them enough. And even if you don't knock out both of the mercs, it's much easier to win against one merc than two. They can't be in two places at once. Blacklist fixes that problem in that you always have a mate by your side, keeping the matches focused on the objectives and exploiting them. If you knocked out of of the mercs in Blacklist's classic mode, it would totally imbalance the game, because they could never defend the objectives effectively. You could just run away from them while hacking the objectives until you win.

[Spark Mandriller]

It's because I'm so loveable, isn't it? Just impossible to resist.
But seriously did you ever take three lives off one merc in the same game? Because that's pretty crazy if you did. Unless they sucked, of course. Though anyway, this is what I'm talking about when I say dumbed down. In CT if you die lots then you fucked up and you get punished by losing. In Blacklist you get to respawn no matter what. Removing punishments for fucking up is like the definition of dumbing down.

[VaNilla]

It feels like dumbing down when you view it as an element within itself, but when you look at the game in context it doesn't serve to dumb down the experience at all. It simply serves a different style of gameplay, and while making one thing less complicated, makes another far more complex. I've took three lives off a merc on very rare occassions by myself in CT, so it was quite difficult, but even against good players I managed to do it fairly often as a team of two.

[Spark Mandriller]

If you took three lives off them then don't you think they deserve to lose? Instead of the game just letting them keep going because they'd be sad if they couldn't respawn?

I don't really see how infinite respawns make things more complicated either. I mean, it does mean there's no way to kinda win by accident just by getting kills, but it also means going for kills to try and wear the mercs down is gone too. Removing possible strategies doesn't help make things complex.

[VaNilla]

If you took three lives off them then don't you think they deserve to lose? Instead of the game just letting them keep going because they'd be sad if they couldn't respawn?

I don't really see how infinite respawns make things more complicated either. I mean, it does mean there's no way to kinda win by accident just by getting kills, but it also means going for kills to try and wear the mercs down is gone too. Removing possible strategies doesn't help make things complex.

I don't think they necessarily deserve to lose, I think the spies deserve to be rewarded. I think along with the obvious inclusion of points, the game rewards you by allowing you to get closer to the objective without one of the mercs in your way. It's not infinite respawns that make the game more complicated, it's the type of gameplay they facilitate. As a spy, you can keep going for the objectives, and although death is a huge setback, you've always got the chance to turn the tables. Death doesn't make that any easier, but it certainly feels a lot less punishing, which I think is a good from the perspective of pure fun and accessibility. As a merc it's harder to shut out the spies from a win, and you can't rely on the spies playing differently as a result of death, so you really have to keep on your toes, as they're going to be relentless in their pursuit to hack the objectives. I think that's AWESOME.

Just look at CT, the mercs were way over-powered. If you had even teams, the mercs would probably win 80% of the time. Anything to even the balance is a good thing. Some people have a problem with fast double kills for example, but I don't. And neither do the people who've actually played the game. The reason why is because the mercs should never bunch up in a corner in the first place, so if they do, it only makes sense that they can be dealt with quickly. Fast melee kills fit the pacing of the game without making it easier for either side; spies get a faster kill, but mercs get a faster respawn instead of waiting to be grabbed and then killed or knocked out, so it's actually more balanced in my opinion. Killing from the front still requires an ambush factor in order to work, because if they see you coming, you're going to be dead before you know it. So really, I don't think it's much different from having to get behind the mercs, even if it's a little easier to execute. They do have infinite lives, and the respawn time is still 10 seconds, so I think it helps bring balance back to both teams, given the state of things in Chaos Theory.

[Spark Mandriller]

It's not infinite respawns that make the game more complicated, it's the type of gameplay they facilitate.

I'm not sure if they're gonna facilitate anything good. In CT playing slow and methodical was good since running in and getting killed would end up with you outta lives pretty quick. In Blacklist it seems like it'll be more of a rushing sort of game, since there's no penalty for dying other than having to respawn. I mean, running in and dying is bad, but moving in slowly and then dying is much worse since it wastes more time, and time is the only resource you have. Seems like it could end up a little too fast paced.