Project Stealth

Forums => Public Discussion => Topic started by: Snakebit. on March 12, 2009, 09:20:54 AM

Title: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 12, 2009, 09:20:54 AM
I am bored a bit and have nothing to do so ill post some info which should be considered for devs while creating a map. (Considering that the speed of the game will remain the same + 2vs2)

1st Of all lets talk about objectives. What kind of objectives do we have ? Bomb - Nd - Drop.

How many is the optimal number of objectives ? Depends on the map , if its a warehouse like map with 1 big sector then the optional level is 4-5 . Its very easy to hold 3 objectives which makes that map rather hard for spy , really depends on how many times you can sleep the merc and flash/smoke/chaff his mate while your mate is passing the mines and hacking the nd. A good map shouldn't rely on that to much. Also they should be Either 5 nd's (Hacking objectives preferable linked to each other) or 3 Disc objectives with drops at spawn. You can also try a big sector with 10 or more bomb spots that would be fun. THe time on the bomb should be adjusted , it has never been done in a warehouse like zone (Museum doesn't count , mercs don't camp together in 1 room there)

If its a map like club house (Full of hacking nds) Like spekkio suggested previously it will need SOME if not MANY static traps which LOCK (Note lock and not alarm) the nd so that taz/run won't be that of a super easy tactic. The nds should be coverable and not be that far away from each other. 7-8 seconds by foot . 
Camping tactics should be possible because on this map it will decide the winner its really hard to hold ALL nds  , 2-3 will usually get taken. (With 6 nds on map and 4 need to be taken like club)

Orphanage 1st sector like is really bad. Deppends on luck to much. It is just impossible to hold and that sector will get taken . Experience shows that 3 bombs = very bad for merc , impossible to hold. SPy doesn't need to stand still while blowing up the bomb , he will cover it so stoping it isn't as easy as an nd and a merc can't be in 3 places at the same time which makes 3 bombs in 1 sector a very bad combo.

Disc drops . Its a big problem if you have lag , you just can't stop host drop if you are lagging in some server. Disc drops are very ping reliant on stopping and dropping. If you can't kill that runner with snipe or spray he will most probably drop it. Disc drops like in aqua are a good idea where either take or drop is 'protected' in a way . By a door or something like that.

Another good thing is that there should be +1 or +2 objectives on maps Not more. Better +1 . For example there are 4 objectives you need to take 3. Its better when there are 4 or under in total objectives than you have +1 and 5 and above +2 because taking objectives is very time / camp reliant . Camping +2 objectives is harder so it takes less time to take them and thats why there should be more objectives to take in general. But it really depends on the objectives. If they are mostly hacks then obviously +1 is better if they are mostly bombs/disks then +2 might be okay.


Station like maps are good but a bit edited. You can say that sector 1 is devided in 3 sub sectors there. Spy spawn with fence / Sub zone between spy spawn and discs / Disc zone - each of them are devided by a fence or sorts which sector 1 a bit hard. If you remove the fence between sub zone and hacks the sector becomes nice (hack the doors to nds in ct that usually works). Notice how sector 2 of station is really nice .

Mount Hospital like map ( Small ,compact, long tunnels and a lot of nds). I don't really like maps like that , they are to much based on taz / run / flash / hack / don't get blown up by a mine strategy . If you can do that fine then you will win it for sure. May be i just don't like that tactic to much because if been doing it a lot since the start of ct and probably one of the best guys doing it , so i know how it pisses people off...Well certainly it adds a lot of action elements to the game but also makes it dumb agro like for most , well i actually use stealth in mount but not that much well usually people don't even try to.

Maps are a lot dependable on tactics you use on them. Don't misunderstand me you need to take them into account in creating a map. Its not like i am saying that you should make maps 'privately for snakebit tactics' but just take them into consideration. Okay now lets talk about tactics for maps a bit .

Double teaming or 1 hacks other plays with merc . This tactic is very annoying if you are lagging AND the nd is hard to shoot . For example museum inside nd or polar base container nd . If you lag + hard to shoot its impossible to stop nd against a good pinger . But if its only hard to shoot its still hard , most of the time the other guy will take around 5-6 seconds for sure , and if the agro guy is good then you might say bye bye to the nd . Well you have your friend to help you but usually he can't be all the time with you.

Nd run and hack . When 1 sector 1 merc 1 spy and 2-or more hacking nds that is certainly a big option. Either make a lot of defenses or more time on nds but not to much. Usually getting jumped / cammed / necked means instant loose of nd on this maps because they were probably abused a bit before you got cammed.........

Running between unstopable hacks. You can run between g1/g2 alone vs 1 merc and its 99% sure you will take 1 if your mate doesn't help you. Its just impossible to stop that running in the lift alone. You might go to garden outside but then the spy would usually go to objectives you are far away from. So for the love of god please don't make 2 nds on floor 1 and 2 where you need to go by a lift to stop it. Lift takes 3-4 secs to arrive. Not to mention 1-2 additional secs because of taz + medical kit nearby . Thats one of the worst possible combos in ct possible. Furthermore the lift is blockable by your mate so its not like you can't stop the merc from going up or down but its a bit harder to accomplish.

Make some places to hide here and there. They are needed to regenerate health and not to turn the game into run/taz/flash. Many maps encourage that because there are simply no places to hide . Museum cafe for example. Sector 3 warehouse for most but people from pt know where to hide in there .

Museum and Ware are classic maps in SvM so i would like to seem them return in ps. Museum should get it random lasers system and mono vent  back. Random lasers SHOULD lock the doors not the nds in exo / mono corridors and Ware sector 1 needs more nds. For example 1 between the huge crates  and 1 more under the 3 crates hole which is shielded pretty good . (Its near ladder )

Lets return to the tactics. Some nds are just dodge nade / hack  - dodge nade / hack . (Digger behind wall nd or Schremen up nd ) This nds are not that bad . Takes skill to dodge nades so i am not really against them .

More to come in the near future may be .
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: frvge on March 12, 2009, 11:32:34 AM
Only one map will be inspired by CT, and that's Lakehouse.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 12, 2009, 01:02:02 PM
Damn i posted it in the wrong forum so can you please move it to public discussion scworld ?

I ment in general. While creating a map take that in consideration. There is a need for 'some' rules for creating a good and BALANCED map . I could care less for maps if they are not balanced but balance is a
'relative' word. For some its balanced for some its not. And there should be 'some guidelines' which could help developers creat a balanced map. Let all people type what they think. And by developers i don't just mean normal classic developers (ps team) but people who will be able to get ps editor and will probably start creating a map. Not only that but there are a lot of people creating maps for ut in general so the prob is that ut3 is not a SvM type like game. So they will need some help with creating maps for ps if they want to.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: VaNilla on March 12, 2009, 06:25:17 PM
Personally I want to see a successful stage map made :P.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 13, 2009, 02:36:21 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 12, 2009, 06:25:17 PM
Personally I want to see a successful stage map made :P.

Stage map ? what the hell is that ?
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: frvge on March 13, 2009, 02:42:33 PM
Maps with stages... Warehouse, Station, Missile Strike etc. Maps without stages: Clubhouse, Aquarius etc.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Westfall on March 13, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
"Sector" map
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 14, 2009, 01:35:36 PM
Well coming from my exp .... People don't like 'sector' maps that much. It doesn't allow rush after taking 1 nd and it limits the tactics.

Warehouse , Deftech , Missile , Bank - Usually people don't play those maps that often. Station and Orphanage are the only sector map that people play more or less often.

I personally don't find those maps bad or imbalanced but a lot of people do........

Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
Making a good looking map requires an Artist with a signficant amount of artistic skills and sofware knowledge.


Making a balanced map that plays well,  requires  a great deal of knowledge of game design.

Game playing skills are not required,  but understanding the addictive fun factor of a successful game is an absolute must.
Title: Post mortem of Splinter cell
Post by: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 02:38:45 PM
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=5764
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 02:43:38 PM

Map Designer gives an interview of working on Chaos Theory  (versus mode)


http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1785/multiplayer_level_design_indepth_.php
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 14, 2009, 03:22:48 PM
Some understanding of those skills is required. Note i said some not total. Its not like you gonna put 4 bomb sites in 1 sector. THat would be almost impossible to hold.

THe links are nice by the way.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 03:56:09 PM
being able to visualize in 3d space,  and understand  the scale of a map is important.

Basic questions like how tall a room is,  how long a corridor needs to be,  and the actual time/distance between objectives are all very important.


Game designers are not required to build a map,  but they will need to sketch out a blueprint for an Artist.

Then it will need to be playtested,  and timed to make sure players can get to objectives with reasonable time constraints.  Then things like vents  and stealth routes need to be created and tested.

A major reason we designed Lakehouse around clubhouse was that we needed to take a proven map layout  that works so that we could with confidence create a balanced map.  It evolved from there of course and is definately new for the players,  but as devolopers, we need to strictly control ourselves with proven layouts so that we do not screw things up and spend to much time trying to balance things.

No need to try and re-invent the wheel here.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 14, 2009, 05:44:27 PM
I don't think lakehouse is the same as club house from the vid by the way. It might have the same shape but the corridors are different. So i don't think that clubhouse balance will apply to lakehouse for sure.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: frvge on March 14, 2009, 05:46:44 PM
I agree. It will definately be different, but we'll see that during testing.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 14, 2009, 05:53:14 PM
I almost forgot one very important thing. The spawn system and spawns in general. Making 1 spawn point is a bad idea . 1st of all it limits the access of mercs to some objectives during start meaning he won't be able to place fast mines at all against rush and 2nd that spawn camping will be easier. 3rd is that after death he will need to run longer . Make 1 or 2 spawn point on map like in club 1st 2nd floor and when you die you spawn in crap room.

Oh you implement sc:ct far spawn system. Means that merc always spawns the farthest spawn possible from 2 spies.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 15, 2009, 08:40:16 PM
Snakebit, which maps are your favorite ones and most balanced in your opinion?
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 16, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
Quote from: YaYz0r on March 15, 2009, 08:40:16 PM
Snakebit, which maps are your favorite ones and most balanced in your opinion?

Most balanced maps are probably Polar Base , Club house and Museum.

My favorites are Orphanage , Bank , Warehouse , Deftech , Club ............... so on and most unfavorite is steel squat because its the most unbalanced map in my opinion.


You might think why bank , warehouse and deftech ? People don't play those maps often so its not so hard to win on them as spy as you think. Nobody just tries to play them thats all. Somebody 'thought' that they are mega unbalanced and require more agro then usual maps but i really don't think so.


Bank and warehouse are all about sector 1 rest sectors are easier . Deftech is about the knowledge what to do outside and what to do inside.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: AgentX_003 on March 16, 2009, 01:45:52 PM
Quote from: Snakebit. on March 16, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
Quote from: YaYz0r on March 15, 2009, 08:40:16 PM
Snakebit, which maps are your favorite ones and most balanced in your opinion?

Most balanced maps are probably Polar Base , Club house and Museum.

My favorites are Orphanage , Bank , Warehouse , Deftech , Club ............... so on and most unfavorite is steel squat because its the most unbalanced map in my opinion.


You might think why bank , warehouse and deftech ? People don't play those maps often so its not so hard to win on them as spy as you think. Nobody just tries to play them thats all. Somebody 'thought' that they are mega unbalanced and require more agro then usual maps but i really don't think so.


Bank and warehouse are all about sector 1 rest sectors are easier . Deftech is about the knowledge what to do outside and what to do inside.

personally i believe deftech is real challenge and you cant use aggro effectively so its more of a stealth based map.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 16, 2009, 02:13:32 PM
The biggest problem is that people think its 'impossible' to be stealthy in those maps so they totally disregard stealth and that is one thing that you shouldn't be doing in SvM. If you can't do it , it doesn't mean it is impossible and stealth is not usually 100% stealth . 100% stealth is not needed. For example if a merc goes to far from the nd and you know you will get there faster then him while running , you should start running and start hacking the nd. And tricking your opponent on those maps is very important , making them wonder 'where the hell are you'.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: VaNilla on March 16, 2009, 07:25:59 PM
I agree with Deftech and Bank, but immediately the mercs have a great advantage in sector one of Warehouse as you can see the only entries into the map with great ease from two positions, the top floor ND and the stairs, and you can reach these very quickly. With the size of that sector being relatively small there isn't many places the spy can hide once you have seen them enter the sector against somebody who knows the map.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 16, 2009, 10:18:58 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 16, 2009, 07:25:59 PM
I agree with Deftech and Bank, but immediately the mercs have a great advantage in sector one of Warehouse as you can see the only entries into the map with great ease from two positions, the top floor ND and the stairs, and you can reach these very quickly. With the size of that sector being relatively small there isn't many places the spy can hide once you have seen them enter the sector against somebody who knows the map.


Switch between aggro and stealth , aggro out of the way and go stealth a bit. Do it in a mix and you will be able to ambush cam people without a problem. Or neck or Ledgegrab or jump. Just use some imagination.

The biggest mistake people do at warehouse is that they rush strait to the nd. Thats bad . Don't do it. Let your mate get 1 guy busy atleast.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Spekkio on March 17, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
QuoteYou might think why bank , warehouse and deftech ? People don't play those maps often so its not so hard to win on them as spy as you think. Nobody just tries to play them thats all. Somebody 'thought' that they are mega unbalanced and require more agro then usual maps but i really don't think so.
If people spent 1/2 the time practicing merc on those maps as you did developing and practicing spy tactics, they'd win every time. The only way you'd have a chance is to host and abuse host jump/host quick cam/longer shock times.

"Nobody plays these maps except us, so we can win on them" doesn't make a map balanced, or fun.

"Wondering where the hell are you?" isn't hard on those maps, either. Warehouse sector 1 is one room. Bank is 1 room. Deftech is one outside area where you have to trip an alarm to get inside. Between two mercs patrolling with MT + mines at entrances to slow you down, it's really not that difficult to lock these areas down.

Bank is extra stupid because in the unlikely event that you can get sector 1, it's nearly impossible for the mercs to stop the rush to sector 2.

I do agree that Squat and Hospital are two of the least balanced maps in the game. It's just that most people suck at spy, so they think these maps are even.

As for your original post: a lot of your complaints have to do with lag. Unfortunately, you can't balance a game for some players getting 200+ ping, one player getting 0, and one player getting 40. It's just not possible. The best you can hope for is that the player base is large enough so that people can find games in their area, and to not have a dozen different hidden game mechanics that give the host an additional unfair advantage (ie, always showing a radar arrow, longer shock time, straight trap lazers, bigger jump hitbox, etc). You have to balance the game for 0-75ish ping...the rest will just fall into place.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: LennardF1989 on March 17, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 17, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
always showing a radar arrow, longer shock time, straight trap lazers, bigger jump hitbox, etc).
If those are the host advantages then Ubisoft messed up big-time. I'm not even sure I want the CT-source code when I read such things.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 17, 2009, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 17, 2009, 02:01:03 AM
QuoteYou might think why bank , warehouse and deftech ? People don't play those maps often so its not so hard to win on them as spy as you think. Nobody just tries to play them thats all. Somebody 'thought' that they are mega unbalanced and require more agro then usual maps but i really don't think so.
If people spent 1/2 the time practicing merc on those maps as you did developing and practicing spy tactics, they'd win every time. The only way you'd have a chance is to host and abuse host jump/host quick cam/longer shock times.

"Nobody plays these maps except us, so we can win on them" doesn't make a map balanced, or fun.

"Wondering where the hell are you?" isn't hard on those maps, either. Warehouse sector 1 is one room. Bank is 1 room. Deftech is one outside area where you have to trip an alarm to get inside. Between two mercs patrolling with MT + mines at entrances to slow you down, it's really not that difficult to lock these areas down.

Bank is extra stupid because in the unlikely event that you can get sector 1, it's nearly impossible for the mercs to stop the rush to sector 2.

I do agree that Squat and Hospital are two of the least balanced maps in the game. It's just that most people suck at spy, so they think these maps are even.

As for your original post: a lot of your complaints have to do with lag. Unfortunately, you can't balance a game for some players getting 200+ ping, one player getting 0, and one player getting 40. It's just not possible. The best you can hope for is that the player base is large enough so that people can find games in their area, and to not have a dozen different hidden game mechanics that give the host an additional unfair advantage (ie, always showing a radar arrow, longer shock time, straight trap lazers, bigger jump hitbox, etc). You have to balance the game for 0-75ish ping...the rest will just fall into place.

Bank to sector 2 is possible to stop very easy. It is possible to hide in bank, but hiding doesn't mean you need to hide for more than 10-15 seconds. More than that is time wasting imho (on that map atleast. ) .

Warehouse is same. You don't need to hide there for more than 10-15 seconds usually.

Deftech is the best tactical map probably. To win there you need some good tactics nothing more , nothing less. Well may be 1 old cam.

With all having 0 ping running around will still be possible.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 17, 2009, 06:30:08 PM
@ Snakebit, I honestly didn't think you'd like a map like Polar Base. The bomb time so long, drilling tower disk is too hard to get and the NDs are very close to each other. Oh yeah, and then the surface is white, which makes it even easier to see spies.

Steel Squat on the other hand just plays perfectly with the shutter hacking, darkness and all that stuff. And same does Mount Hospital with it's seperation of mercs and dark corners.

UBI's version of Warehouse sucks bigtime as it's so hard for the spies, especially in the first sector. Making it an extraction map would make it very nice though, I think.

In Deftech it's too easy to just camp the disk and bombing obj, IMO. Making an ND on the ground floor in building A and keeping one of those on the first floor would probably fix this.

In general I don't agree on all of the points you made in the first post though I think, that a lot of what you've said is true.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Roberto1223 on March 17, 2009, 07:05:21 PM
add a 'defuse bomb' objective!!
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 18, 2009, 07:24:17 AM
Quote from: YaYz0r on March 17, 2009, 06:30:08 PM
@ Snakebit, I honestly didn't think you'd like a map like Polar Base. The bomb time so long, drilling tower disk is too hard to get and the NDs are very close to each other. Oh yeah, and then the surface is white, which makes it even easier to see spies.

Steel Squat on the other hand just plays perfectly with the shutter hacking, darkness and all that stuff. And same does Mount Hospital with it's seperation of mercs and dark corners.

UBI's version of Warehouse sucks bigtime as it's so hard for the spies, especially in the first sector. Making it an extraction map would make it very nice though, I think.

In Deftech it's too easy to just camp the disk and bombing obj, IMO. Making an ND on the ground floor in building A and keeping one of those on the first floor would probably fix this.

In general I don't agree on all of the points you made in the first post though I think, that a lot of what you've said is true.


Polar base is a balanced map. Just doing some objectives at end or start is useless. For example taking the top tower disc to the panel hacks at start is 10x times easier than at end. Blowing the bombs is usually easier at end than taking 1 of the hacking nds. Hacking something at start is easy enough if you get 1 person to sleep. Taking the house disc is also easier at start.

The top tower disc isnt that hard to drop at that hacking house. Just people don't try it that often , you just need your partners help a bit. And i don't mean the coop. Plus you can just use it as a distraction. Hacking panel is 6 sec to drop the disc. A nd with 6 sec in a way. Simple punch + taz gives you 3-4 seconds. Flash at end of punch + taz gives you additional 1 sec probably . So thats like 4-5 sec already. I doubt he will be able to stop you hacking the panel.





Steel squat is an imbalanced map. Its a bit to easy for the spies and relies on ping way to much. You can't hold all nds and it is based a lot on luck (Will your mines blow anything or not , will instas kill someone , will you be able to trick someone , will your nade get him in stupid spots) . Ofcourse camping 1 building with double uzi is also an option BUT if you get camed 1 time , well 2 at most you will loose for sure.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 18, 2009, 09:20:24 AM
Quote from: Snakebit. on March 18, 2009, 07:24:17 AM
Quote from: YaYz0r on March 17, 2009, 06:30:08 PM
@ Snakebit, I honestly didn't think you'd like a map like Polar Base. The bomb time so long, drilling tower disk is too hard to get and the NDs are very close to each other. Oh yeah, and then the surface is white, which makes it even easier to see spies.

Steel Squat on the other hand just plays perfectly with the shutter hacking, darkness and all that stuff. And same does Mount Hospital with it's seperation of mercs and dark corners.

UBI's version of Warehouse sucks bigtime as it's so hard for the spies, especially in the first sector. Making it an extraction map would make it very nice though, I think.

In Deftech it's too easy to just camp the disk and bombing obj, IMO. Making an ND on the ground floor in building A and keeping one of those on the first floor would probably fix this.

In general I don't agree on all of the points you made in the first post though I think, that a lot of what you've said is true.
Steel squat is an imbalanced map. Its a bit to easy for the spies and relies on ping way to much. You can't hold all nds and it is based a lot on luck (Will your mines blow anything or not , will instas kill someone , will you be able to trick someone , will your nade get him in stupid spots) . Ofcourse camping 1 building with double uzi is also an option BUT if you get camed 1 time , well 2 at most you will loose for sure.
That is pretty much the same feeling I have about Polar Base. It's just a hit-n-run map and if you're lucky you won't run into the merc's random mines. If you're host you'll be capable of insane jumps which is a big advantage in Polar Base with all the boxes to jump from and so. Drilling Tower Disk is just too hard to get even if you're two spies - then the other merc will just come to support his mate and then it's basically impossible to succes for the spies. You also have time to defuse the bomb even though you're in the other side of the map because of the long timer. Maybe lowering this timer and making another drop off for the drill-disk would make it a better map, but I don't know.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Spekkio on March 18, 2009, 12:08:37 PM
QuoteSteel Squat on the other hand just plays perfectly with the shutter hacking, darkness and all that stuff. And same does Mount Hospital with it's seperation of mercs and dark corners.
Except you don't even need to use those shadows...just shock and run around, tapping each objective for 2-3 seconds before running elsewhere. There's literally nothing to stop you since chaff goes through walls.

And yea, Polar Base is the same thing, except it's bugged to hell. I dunno how anyone can play that map in its current state.

@Lennard: Yes, those are all host advantages. There's even more, but I haven't played in a while and those were the first few to come to mind.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 18, 2009, 05:24:22 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 18, 2009, 12:08:37 PM
QuoteSteel Squat on the other hand just plays perfectly with the shutter hacking, darkness and all that stuff. And same does Mount Hospital with it's seperation of mercs and dark corners.
Except you don't even need to use those shadows...just shock and run around, tapping each objective for 2-3 seconds before running elsewhere. There's literally nothing to stop you since chaff goes through walls.

And yea, Polar Base is the same thing, except it's bugged to hell. I dunno how anyone can play that map in its current state.

@Lennard: Yes, those are all host advantages. There's even more, but I haven't played in a while and those were the first few to come to mind.


Polar base has 2 discs + 1 bomb +2 hacking objectives which ARE guarded by lasers and can be mined heavily.

Steal squat is 5 hacking nds + 1 disc . You can just run around steal taz hacking everything . You can't do that so much at polar.

I am fine with polar bugs , if you don't like them that much play ump polar base but its harder , there are not healthpacks in few places which is annoying sometimes.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 18, 2009, 05:40:41 PM
Exactly. Mercs are always under pressure in Steel Squat, cause it's hard to know where the spies will strike the next time if they're stealthy - that makes it a fun map to play. And well, there may be a lot of tazing and stuff if you play it the aggro way, but I don't think it's much worse than on Polar Base. Atleast you're not forced to play like that in Steel Squat - there's always a lot of places to hide and escape.

And removing health packs in the UMP version of Polar Base was just a big mistake, yeah, making the map even more imbalanced. Shame on you, Zedblade.


Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 18, 2009, 06:54:45 PM
Quote from: YaYz0r on March 18, 2009, 05:40:41 PM
Exactly. Mercs are always under pressure in Steel Squat, cause it's hard to know where the spies will strike the next time if they're stealthy - that makes it a fun map to play. And well, there may be a lot of tazing and stuff if you play it the aggro way, but I don't think it's much worse than on Polar Base. Atleast you're not forced to play like that in Steel Squat - there's always a lot of places to hide and escape.

And removing health packs in the UMP version of Polar Base was just a big mistake, yeah, making the map even more imbalanced. Shame on you, Zedblade.





The health pack thing is just a matter of perspective. I don't think there are to many healthpacks on that map but some did so they removed them in ump.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 18, 2009, 07:16:13 PM
I guess so, though I haven't heard a lot of positive response about it from other CT players.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Spekkio on March 19, 2009, 01:07:39 AM
QuotePolar base has 2 discs + 1 bomb +2 hacking objectives which ARE guarded by lasers and can be mined heavily.
Uhh...the lasers don't lock the objectives that they guard, so they're useless. Also, 1-2 chaff takes care of all mines, since the objectives are in tight locations ala Hospital.

The only thing that makes Polar harder than Hospital is that there's only one floor with much less cover, so the mercs can team up on people more easily.

QuoteExactly. Mercs are always under pressure in Steel Squat, cause it's hard to know where the spies will strike the next time if they're stealthy - that makes it a fun map to play.
Yea, and playing River Mall without camnet and resisting the temptation to railcamp snipe in the beginning makes that a fun map to play. The only problem is that it requires the team to handicap itself in order for the map to be fun or balanced, which is pretty much what you're saying about Steel Squat.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 19, 2009, 03:36:12 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 19, 2009, 01:07:39 AM
QuotePolar base has 2 discs + 1 bomb +2 hacking objectives which ARE guarded by lasers and can be mined heavily.
Uhh...the lasers don't lock the objectives that they guard, so they're useless. Also, 1-2 chaff takes care of all mines, since the objectives are in tight locations ala Hospital.

The only thing that makes Polar harder than Hospital is that there's only one floor with much less cover, so the mercs can team up on people more easily.

QuoteExactly. Mercs are always under pressure in Steel Squat, cause it's hard to know where the spies will strike the next time if they're stealthy - that makes it a fun map to play.
Yea, and playing River Mall without camnet and resisting the temptation to railcamp snipe in the beginning makes that a fun map to play. The only problem is that it requires the team to handicap itself in order for the map to be fun or balanced, which is pretty much what you're saying about Steel Squat.

Spekkio there are all good tactics but it doesn't mean that you can't do anything against them. Taz - run . Go down together . Punch - taz . Flash , smoke . etc. You have equipment for that. May be i am not understanding what you mean by 'rail camp' . Perhaps on stairs infront of spy spawn ? If yes than its not that a big of a problem.


I think your opinion on polar base is a bit wrong. Yes you can team up together vs 2 spies on that map but thats not the main difference from mount. The main difference is probably that you can cover almost all nds in there with nades. You can nade container from bombs (Yes you can ) , you can nade hangar from disc house well a bit farther from it , you can nade hangar from up or snipe from up , you can  stop house disc taking by nades , you can stop tower runers by nades , you can stop bomb by nades.

Nade are not that much useful on mount. Only probably 202<-->212 nades and may be some outside nades.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: YaYz0r on March 19, 2009, 08:13:20 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 19, 2009, 01:07:39 AM
QuotePolar base has 2 discs + 1 bomb +2 hacking objectives which ARE guarded by lasers and can be mined heavily.
Uhh...the lasers don't lock the objectives that they guard, so they're useless. Also, 1-2 chaff takes care of all mines, since the objectives are in tight locations ala Hospital.

The only thing that makes Polar harder than Hospital is that there's only one floor with much less cover, so the mercs can team up on people more easily.

QuoteExactly. Mercs are always under pressure in Steel Squat, cause it's hard to know where the spies will strike the next time if they're stealthy - that makes it a fun map to play.
Yea, and playing River Mall without camnet and resisting the temptation to railcamp snipe in the beginning makes that a fun map to play. The only problem is that it requires the team to handicap itself in order for the map to be fun or balanced, which is pretty much what you're saying about Steel Squat.


It's only the house disc lasers that are bugged - they lock the NDs insted. And I don't see where I talk about handicap on purpose in Steel Squat?


Quote from: Snakebit. on March 19, 2009, 03:36:12 PMI think your opinion on polar base is a bit wrong. Yes you can team up together vs 2 spies on that map but thats not the main difference from mount. The main difference is probably that you can cover almost all nds in there with nades. You can nade container from bombs (Yes you can ) , you can nade hangar from disc house well a bit farther from it , you can nade hangar from up or snipe from up , you can  stop house disc taking by nades , you can stop tower runers by nades , you can stop bomb by nades.

Nade are not that much useful on mount. Only probably 202<-->212 nades and may be some outside nades.

There we go - you just gave one of the reasons why Polar Base is so unbalanced. And why all the hate on Mount Hospital? - it's a really good map, IMO.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Spekkio on March 20, 2009, 01:14:37 AM
QuoteAnd I don't see where I talk about handicap on purpose in Steel Squat?
The handicap is that given the spy's attributes vs. the merc's attributes, number of objectives, and lack of security, the best way to play spy is to exploit their speed, and the fact that it's impossible for the mercs to adequately cover all objectives. Just spend the first 2 min or so getting them to waste all their frags. When you decide to slow it up and hide in the shadows, you give the mercs to set up additional defenses and remove the speed advantage.

This could be said of a lot of maps -- CT maps depend heavily on the spy's initial rush. However, Squat is still friendly to spies even when that fails.

QuoteAnd why all the hate on Mount Hospital? - it's a really good map, IMO.
I have more < 2:00-3:00 wins as spy and losses as merc on that map against good teams than any other. That should tell you something.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: Snakebit. on March 20, 2009, 02:05:08 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 20, 2009, 01:14:37 AM
QuoteAnd I don't see where I talk about handicap on purpose in Steel Squat?
The handicap is that given the spy's attributes vs. the merc's attributes, number of objectives, and lack of security, the best way to play spy is to exploit their speed, and the fact that it's impossible for the mercs to adequately cover all objectives. Just spend the first 2 min or so getting them to waste all their frags. When you decide to slow it up and hide in the shadows, you give the mercs to set up additional defenses and remove the speed advantage.

This could be said of a lot of maps -- CT maps depend heavily on the spy's initial rush. However, Squat is still friendly to spies even when that fails.

QuoteAnd why all the hate on Mount Hospital? - it's a really good map, IMO.
I have more < 2:00-3:00 wins as spy and losses as merc on that map against good teams than any other. That should tell you something.

As you said spekkio a lot of maps are based on initial rush. So is mount hospital. But i would like to make something clear. By initial rush i don't mean spy rush but more the time the mercs need to 'turtle in' . Set defences as fast as possible. Same goes for mount hospital. To prevent the rush you need to set the defences as fast as possible + be able to anticipate what your enemies will do. Rush usually means a lot of running so its not hard to anticipate but its hard to turtle in at the same time and it is a SKILL to do those things together. I with solidus haven't lost that map a lot , heck we didn't usually loose at that map at all because we knew how to turtle in fast at start , it very deppends on the spawn points , you don't have time to exchange favorite places on that map with your teammate like on some other maps like museum / club / orph etc. You just need to go where you need to go to mine everything fast .

Choke mines are important on rush maps. On aggro maps placing mines near objectives is usually not the wisest thing to but mining run ways is usually a very good idea . Museum dore mines (between spawn and cafe) , storage mines or exo/mono corridor mines. + The quality of turtling in also counts, you need to know where to place mines , not just place them randomly . Sometimes stupid mines ARE good mines but usually they are NOT. You could also use 2+1 minning , you plant 2 mines and save 1 because you know that he will run somewhere again and will think there is no mine. A laser mine is better or poison in this situation or a 'bug' proxy mines.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: ray mysertio on June 26, 2009, 09:31:24 AM
Quote from: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 03:56:09 PM
A major reason we designed Lakehouse around clubhouse was that we needed to take a proven map layout  that works so that we could with confidence create a balanced map.  It evolved from there of course and is definately new for the players,  but as devolopers, we need to strictly control ourselves with proven layouts so that we do not screw things up and spend to much time trying to balance things.

No need to try and re-invent the wheel here

i hate to break it to you goodkebab, gamers are more and more seeing that developers are cutting back on quality just to squeeze 30-40-50% out of them, and moe and more theyre realizing that it happens to ALOT of people... this means that the future of gaming- relevant to you because youe heading into the game-studio direction... i will laugh my ass off when all these bitch companies lose record sales due to the fact that they just plain suck.

shows how far these devs are willing to go to give paying future customers what they aparantly NEED for god's sakes let versus die.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: goodkebab on June 26, 2009, 11:18:57 AM
Games Developers are business just like anything,  if their games cannot make money for the studio then they will be discontinued.

The general rule for this is:  quantity, quality, and cost.   You can only choose 2 when developing the game.


There only a few studios that can actually pay 100-200 people to work on a game for 4 years to guarrantee the quality and amount of content.


The PS dev team does not have any money, so we canot pay for the talent needed to get the quality you all want.  Believe it or not,  there is a great deal of artistic skill involved in making a great game,  and you cant dream it up from thin air because the community says it needs to be better.
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: AgentX_003 on June 26, 2009, 11:50:58 AM
how about you leave this forum for good and stop criticising it , yes uve drove that nail into the ground as far as it can go to say "Hey guys my name is Dimmykronz I hate ur mod im a jealous piece of shit because  I don't have talent so I think will keep harrassing the team till they give in and accept me but can't get it through my head that my attitude is the problem".
Title: Re: Tips on making a map.
Post by: LennardF1989 on June 26, 2009, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 26, 2009, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: ray mysertio on June 26, 2009, 09:31:24 AM
Quote from: goodkebab on March 14, 2009, 03:56:09 PM
A major reason we designed Lakehouse around clubhouse was that we needed to take a proven map layout  that works so that we could with confidence create a balanced map.  It evolved from there of course and is definately new for the players,  but as devolopers, we need to strictly control ourselves with proven layouts so that we do not screw things up and spend to much time trying to balance things.

No need to try and re-invent the wheel here

i hate to break it to you goodkebab, gamers are more and more seeing that developers are cutting back on quality just to squeeze 30-40-50% out of them, and moe and more theyre realizing that it happens to ALOT of people... this means that the future of gaming- relevant to you because youe heading into the game-studio direction... i will laugh my ass off when all these bitch companies lose record sales due to the fact that they just plain suck.

shows how far these devs are willing to go to give paying future customers what they aparantly NEED for god's sakes let versus die.

how about you leave this forum for good and stop criticising it , yes uve drove that nail into the ground as far as it can go to say "Hey guys my name is Dimmykronz I hate ur mod im a jealous piece of shit because  I don't have talent so I think will keep harrassing the team till they give in and accept me but can't get it through my head that my attitude is the problem".
Instead, could you just stop quoting and replying to him?