Poll

Do you think Jumping is essential to the Merc gameplay?

Yes
No
Vega Sucks
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Author Topic: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?  (Read 16000 times)

Offline Cronky

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Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« on: December 21, 2011, 11:01:50 PM »
I remember it got mentioned a while back (I'll link if I can find it) that the Merc in PS might not have the ability to jump. Perhaps to be replaced with context sensitive actions (hopping rails, climbing boxes, etc). What do you guys think of Jumping as a whole? Do you think it's actually NEEDED for the Merc gameplay? While it has been talked about before, it seems like it could be talked about again.

Personally I think that Jumping is not needed if there is a smart enough context sensitive mechanic implemented. It seems like it would also help with cutting down on peoples ability to exploit certain areas in levels that were not meant to be used (rail camping, as an example). Also cutting down on certain unexpected 'bugs' (like not being able to grab a Merc if he's hopping in CT).

It's not 100% good though as I also believe it cuts down on the freedom of gameplay. Especially when transitioning from Merc to Spy and then back again. Both sides, while different in actual control, have similar controls (in CT). Jumping, turning, crouching, walking, actions, shooting, etc. It's all is mapped to basically the same buttons. So not being able to jump as one character, but can for another may cause, very minor, confusion, or a feeling of restriction that some may not like.

Then again... It also would differentiate the two teams even more. Which I like.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:52:49 PM by Cronky »
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knooger

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 11:15:29 PM »
That's weird poll to be honest. ::) I cannot imagine playing as merc without jumping even if it's kinda "unbalanced" sometimes. Imagine CT without jumping, two spies would easy grab you so, I think "Jump bug" is not a huge problem. Rail camping is not a problem in story ( If I remember correctly it's not gonna happen in PS anyway ) and I hope PS devs will not release DM gameplay quick after PS is release. :) You should be able to climb/jump on boxes etc. as Merc and "exploiting" maps and tricks will take a lot of time and knowledge which is just better for game. ( Yes I know, you shouldn't be able to enter spy spawning room as Merc or make selfcoop right to objective as spy ( I mean about Factory's mechanical digger's one ) but that ehances gameplay IMO. )
:-*

[...]
Then again... It also would differentiate the two teams even more. Which I like.

In Project Stealth teams gonna be way more different than they are in PT/CT atm. Spy is gonna get a lot more abilities so, You shouldn't be bored :P

@Below
I still think jumping ability is needed/wanted for Merc and it will not break anything.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:40:59 PM by KnoogeR »

Offline Cronky

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 11:36:12 PM »
I worded the poll weird, so I edited it. Meant it to only point towards the Merc gameplay. You got that though.

It does seem weird to think of not being able to jump. It seems like a staple for any game now a days, but is it NEEDED? Imagine playing TF2 and the Heavy couldn't jump. While jumping does help at some very specific times with the Heavy, I would say that jumping with that class isn't NEEDED. Wanted? Yes. Jumping with Scout on the other hand? Absolutely. That's a big part of their class, so it is needed.

That's my thought process with the Merc. Is it actually NEEDED? Also again, if the normal abilities you'd usually use jumping for would be implemented as a context sensitive action (Which I believe are separate from the jumping mechanic regardless). I'm also imaging that PS will have the obvious network/bug fixes that required such things as the jump bug or getting grabbed. Good netcode and proper hitboxes for Merc would help (as I imagine) balance out the Merc side (as well as Spy). I'm pretty much talking out of my ass right here though as I don't know anything about anything technically wrong with CT SvM. I'm just saying things I've read on here. :P
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:44:36 PM by Cronky »
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Offline Spark Mandriller

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 12:15:59 AM »
I don't think there's much point in a Vega sucks option when nobody's seen Vega in like two years.

Shit, half you guys probably don't even know who he is.



Also yeah I'd really just rather do my jumping on my own rather than relying on the game to try and work out what I want. You can just design maps to make it impossible to get on rails if you really want to.


Also also if we can't jump we can't play hard jump.
And we wouldn't want that.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:17:38 AM by Brain Golem »

DreadStunLock

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 12:27:50 AM »
Remove it completely.

Offline BearInATie

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 01:16:22 AM »
Jumping makes sense- some times you have to run away as a merc and jumping will give Mercs a fighting chance in an ambush

Offline Farley4Fan

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 03:02:36 AM »
Let it be known that I think mercs should be able to jump.  So it was written, and so it shall be done.  (I voted vega sucks, and yes you did that right, I just wanted to say that it should be +1 to the "yes" option).  Context jumping has gotten on my nerves lately with battlefield 3.  The game constantly thinks I want to bunny hop in front of the obstacle, not jump over it.

If DICE can't do it right, I have no faith that PS will.

Offline Cronky

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 03:34:51 AM »
I don't think there's much point in a Vega sucks option when nobody's seen Vega in like two years.

Shit, half you guys probably don't even know who he is.

It feels like tradition. Just one of those traditions I was never part of. Like Hanukkah if I was Christian.

Also yeah I'd really just rather do my jumping on my own rather than relying on the game to try and work out what I want. You can just design maps to make it impossible to get on rails if you really want to.

You could build levels that you couldn't get onto rails, but without jumping then you wouldn't have to tailor to such a small detail. It is a small annoyance, but it would be dealt with completely if the option wasn't there. With little to no drawback (aside from no random jumping)

Context jumping has gotten on my nerves lately with battlefield 3.  The game constantly thinks I want to bunny hop in front of the obstacle, not jump over it.

I think your comment fall closely with Brain Golem's. It's a legit concern that the PS team could create a crappy context jumping mechanic. What PS has potentially over Battlefield is less room to work with. From what I've heard of Battlefield games, their levels are huge. More objects means more confusion for someone to run into. The smallest maps in Battlefield, I would believe, match probably the biggest maps in PS (or as a more tangible example, CT). While that doesn't necessarily rid the problem of none-to-smart jumping contexts, it does, in my head, make it seem like there would be less instances of a miscommunication about your actions in-game.

Jumping makes sense- some times you have to run away as a merc and jumping will give Mercs a fighting chance in an ambush

Assuming the jump bug is no longer a thing in PS, or as I've read about how it would work here, it wouldn't matter whether you jumped or not as jumping would no longer negate getting grabbed. Now that doesn't mean that it would be easier for Spies to grab Mercs, as I am guessing something is being worked out to make that more balanced.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 08:18:47 PM by Cronky »
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Offline Farley4Fan

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 06:54:22 AM »
A fair point.  I think a good portion of the playtesting would have to go towards testing the context jumping. 

I think it's a good idea to ask the devs.  So, devs, are the maps currently being made with the mercs able to jump?  I'm under the impression that the merc CAN jump as it stands right now.  Adding context movement would mean it's necessary to change the already-made maps.

I ask the pro-context people, how would the merc clear gaps with no dedicated jump button?  Zelda style maybe with autojump?  With the verticality of SvM I just don't see it as a good idea.

Offline Cronky

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 07:38:26 AM »
I swear I remember reading a while back (still trying to find it) that jumping hadn't been implemented (...for the Merc), so in turn I'd assume nothing would be dependent on jumps map-wise, at that time.

I ask though, as a question to your reply Farley, what gaps and maps NEED the Merc to jump in CT? I'm not asking which maps have a spot only accessible by jumping (ex: Forklift in Deftec), but which maps require that a Merc clears a gap to get to any one objective in a timely manner? Assuming again that rail-jumping, ladders, buttons, and doors were still taken into account on maps as context sensitive actions. You can also still fall also, just to be clear.

Also why would maps need to be reconfigured? (this question is kind of connected to the question above)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 07:41:01 AM by Cronky »
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Offline VenomousNinja

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 07:48:53 AM »
Wait wait wait...

Mercs could jump at all?

No wonder I was shit at merc :\

DreadStunLock

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 08:36:53 AM »
I swear I remember reading a while back (still trying to find it) that jumping hadn't been implemented (...for the Merc), so in turn I'd assume nothing would be dependent on jumps map-wise, at that time.

I ask though, as a question to your reply Farley, what gaps and maps NEED the Merc to jump in CT? I'm not asking which maps have a spot only accessible by jumping (ex: Forklift in Deftec), but which maps require that a Merc clears a gap to get to any one objective in a timely manner? Assuming again that rail-jumping, ladders, buttons, and doors were still taken into account on maps as context sensitive actions. You can also still fall also, just to be clear.

Also why would maps need to be reconfigured? (this question is kind of connected to the question above)

That's what I am trying to remember, someone said jumping was not implemented at all, and they didn't implement it because it removes a lot of bug factors or chances of having bugs.

Offline VaNilla

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 05:55:31 PM »
You can just design maps to make it impossible to get on rails if you really want to.

This. Jumping opens up so many more tactics that it would just feel wrong not to have it in my opinion, couldn't imagine not being able to jump over rails to cut out stairs in places like Tech Room on Aqua. I'd actually like to see jumping improved with context sensitive controls like BF3, I actually think jumping works great in that game, rarely had problems with it. It would open up so much gameplay if you could actually climb objects where it makes sense.

Offline Cronky

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 08:08:35 PM »
This. Jumping opens up so many more tactics that it would just feel wrong not to have it in my opinion, couldn't imagine not being able to jump over rails to cut out stairs in places like Tech Room on Aqua. I'd actually like to see jumping improved with context sensitive controls like BF3, I actually think jumping works great in that game, rarely had problems with it. It would open up so much gameplay if you could actually climb objects where it makes sense.

I seem to be missing the amount of tactics that really open up. Jumping over rails (I get that you mean jumping over rails while running down stairs) can be achieved at any flat rail with context sensitive actions (I'm pretty sure you could do that in CT, or maybe it was DA). It could be even possible on any rail, regardless of orientation if the Dev's wanted it to.

Again, I simply mean the act up jumping at will. I agree it would be weird to not be able to jump, as any game, regardless of need lets you jump, but is it actually needed for the Merc Gameplay? Bearing in mind that context sensitive actions (Running, hopping rails, climbing, perhaps climbing on top of stuff, perhaps vaulting small objects, etc.) would still be included in the Merc's abilities. Just not jumping at will.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 08:11:45 PM by Cronky »
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Offline frvge

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Re: Merc Jumping. Yes? No?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 08:20:42 PM »
jumping causes more headaches than it solves. we don't have hopping over rails yet for the merc, but we can look into that if it is needed.
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