Messages

Any ETA on when the screenshot will be back to a working link?

Why not punish mercs with longer spawn times, and respawns that are further away? Hell, have a slowly opening door or a 3 second animation of the hud flickering on and off and then starting?

While the mercs do get a refill on death, they also lose 35+ seconds of gametime. That is multiple objectives with a 2 v 1 advantage for spies.

You guys are completely wrong.

Spekkio: You say that FPS games refill on death because they are boring and you are supposed to die a lot, and in the next breath say that this game needs checkpoints and stealth isn't the objective. Stealth IS the objective for the spy team, and the mercs objective is to foil the spies plan. Sure, being stealthy doesn't always work, and aggro is a part of the game, but for the most part, you design a stealth game around stealth. My opinion has always been to design for stealth but not limit aggro. Same thing here. The game is not boring because you don't see anything, it is boring because nothing happens. Key difference: sight vs gameplay. If I hack an objective and you never suspected I was there and I make a clean getaway, I have beaten you in every aspect. Maps should be designed with darkness playing a key role. Otherwise why not make day maps and less routes? Stealth is key when thinking about gameplay issues.

Farley: Map knowledge always helps. No doubt. That is why the maps should not include 6 key areas but instead include the whole map in the search. If I use, on average, 3 smokes per life, I will need to hit the ammo box quite a bit. I only need to hack 3 times, but I need to refill my gadgets many more. Do you see where I am going? The ammo boxes will become more important than objectives. Having knowledge of certain vents and pathways will still help immensely.

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map.  Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to.  Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.

I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.

I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

[would enable camping.]

1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.

This won't be true 100% of the time. In fact, it would only be true if the map was poorly designed. A well designed map would make the mercs move to guard both the ammo refill and the remaining objectives. Additionally, mercs camp...that's what happens when you have to guard objectives that typically don't move. It's part of the game. Camping is only a problem when mercs camp somewhere where they are nearly invulnerable, eg on top of the rails in Sector 2 of Station.

You won't always know if a spy is low on gadgets. Sure, you can guess he is if he spams smokes early, but that doesn't mean he has to go for a refill; he could still choose to attack objectives with what he has left.

Besides, "Chokepoints" are good for the game, provided you can balance out spies and mercs. They create action and force the spies to try to solve a problem, rather than run around objective tapping for 10 minutes like in Club House.

A spy with no gadgets is a basically worthless spy when it comes to a confrontation. Sure, he can hack, but he would be easily defeated. Camping the ammo box when one spy needs gadgets would be effective, but near game breaking if you knew both spies were out.

The whole strategic part of being a spy involves the use of your gadgets. I just can't see a way that refills fix anything. No refills at all would work to make gameplay slower and more strategic, but some people already play the game extremely slow. No action for 5 minutes = boring game. Refills seem like a way of adding an extra challenge to the spy, who is already at a disadvantage.

My Suggestion: Refill on death.
My #2 Suggestion: No refills at all, higher number of gadgets at start.

Just a thought: how many times can you refill per life?

It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.

I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.

If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.

Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.

Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.

Refill boxes are not the way to go.

Refilling equipment is a standard for FPS games where you die frequently, and the game continues until time runs out or someone gets X kills. SvM isn't like other video games, so comparing it to a standard where there are no other games in the genre is disengenuous.

Other games typically don't develop into a situation where there is effectively 1/3 of the map available for play because of objectives being taken. My argument has nothing to do with realism and everything to do with the fact that gameplay in SvM, as it stands now, boils down to 1 chance. It doesn't really matter how many lives you have left, you only have 1 opportunity to win because after that, you have 6 mines and up to 6 spy traps with camnet and 8-16 nades to deal with. If you screw up your 1 rush after a neck, then you lose. If mercs didn't get a refill on death, it adds a new element of strategy to the game...do I deploy my mines/spytraps/nades early, or do I wait to clamp down later in the game?

It would add a whole new element of strategy to the game. Would this only be limited to mercs not refilling after death?

It would if there were no refill points, but that doesn't seem to be the original idea. I have heard of two styles:

1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.

2. A point reachable by only 1 team. If it was the spawn point, the whole idea is flawed. If it is a different point, then there would most likely be only 1 or 2 paths to it, rending the same flaw as point 1.

No refills? I could go for that. Maybe up the gadget count a bit, but it seems reasonable. If refills must be part of the game, just do it on respawn.

It is a video game standard to bring back equipment when you die. You have 4 chances to get through the game, and if you don't make it with those chances, you are done. Each new life is a new chance.

I don't even think their should be gadget refills on the map at all. You die: you get new gadgets. Sure, the merc gets new grenades, but you get quite a few seconds of freedom. He has to respawn, run across the map, and relocate you.

If you kill a spy, he gets new equipment, loses 15+ seconds, and has a lone partner on the map. He gets lose 5 flashes back, but he may not have used ANY flashes in his last life. No gain. In this way, the spy has to judge the situations where gadget use would benefit him, and make sure not to run out before he dies. If he does, he dun went and fucked up. If he doesn't use any and dies, the same scenario is in play.

Having gadget refill locations adds another chokepoint to the map, and it has a bigger problem: the spy will be going there because he is low on gadgets. Spies are not equipped to handle a merc very well with no gadgets, and it makes the whole process a waste. If the merc knows one spy is out of gadgets, he can camp easily, knowing he won't be getting cammed by him. If the merc needs a refill, but is out of gasmask, the spy could easily trap him with a series of cams, leaving the other spy to attack that mercs area easily.

Of course there are numerous counters to this problem, but the key is that those counters are to fix problems that would otherwise not be present. The only problems from instant refills on death are countered by the death time. Maybe it should be even longer to make dying a penalty instead of (as your side would say) a reward.

Refill boxes are not the way to go.

You can't punish someone for killing a merc in DM! That is the whole point of the game! (if you even call DM a game)

I don't get it.  You referenced something and then kind of went bleh.

I don't really understand it anymore either. BACK ON TOPIC

"Fuck it, we'll do it live!" said Bill O'Reilly. A new moderator was then added to the forums. With great vengeance and furious anger, Bill O'Reilly then exclaimed, "Fuckin' thing sucks!"

The moderator took offence to this action immediately and shouted, "I don't remember asking you a god damn thing." In a fit of rage, he also muttered, "Do you know what they call a quarter pounder in France?"

Puzzled, Bill O'Reilly said, "What?"

"A royal with cheese. Do you know why they call it a royal with cheese?"

"The metric system?" Bill said. For being a dumbass, Bill O'Reilly did know his foreign weights like any idiot should.

"Check out the big brains on Bill! You a smart motherfucker Bill!"

"But I don't want you anymore mod! We can't dodge the point: I want you off of these forums. You are not needed and inhibit basic liberties! You need to be gone!" Bill said.

The mod left, but not before leaving his calling card. Bill O'Reilly was banned.


In other news, mods should only sensor truly offensive things. Off-topicness happens because of shitty threads. Make a good thread for once.

If my wins are greater than my losses my character should turn a different color too. Thank you, I pay you $20 if no one else get this.

Can I has 3 teamates plox

Everytime you kill a merc you must smoke a bowl. That would balance it out

Punishing someone for outplaying another player?

Seriously? The dumbest things get discussed. Just my two cents:

Leave the game dynamics the way they are.