So Begins the Castration of the great US of A

[Farley4Fan]

Apparently we no longer support harsh methods of interrogation to be used on TERRORISTS?  Hmmm, I think this actually all started back in the 70's.  Back when the public saw what war could be they cut their balls off and started smoking weed and protesting.  We've been too soft now for too long. 

France loves us now?  Wow, crazy.  They should have loved us until the end of time after we bailed them out and saved them from total destruction.  Nothing against the French, but really?  Is this really our goal now here in America?  To make the world love us?  We'll sacrifice what we need to do in order to become what the world wants us to be?  We've been castrated.  This Obama guy does not help with the regrouping of our testicles and independence.  Liberalism is borderline a disease for my nation.

Like it or not, America has NEVER been about doing what it's told to do because of friggin peer pressure.  We do the right thing, the noble thing, the things that the countries who lack the brass would never do.  We have our fair share of flaws but it's our will to fight and will to do right that makes us, no offense to any other countries, THE BEST.  Lately we'd rather blend in with the crowd than set an example like we always have done.  And that's bullcrap. 

Obama won't even allow the good-cop-bad-cop routine because we HAVE to use the manual?  For THESE GUYS?  My bologna has a first name, it's O-B-A-M-A.

Discussion.  Go.

[Ion.67]

Torturing any human being is wrong, as is capital punishment. Shouldn't the bible tell you that? BAD CHRISTIAN!

[Farley4Fan]

Torturing - bad
Harsh Methods of Interrogation (used on suspected terrorist, could save countless troop/civilian lives) - NOT BAD

There's a line.  An obvious line.  Driving razors under fingernails, beating, cutting, etc, that's torture.  Water boarding?  Are you serious?  That's a method of interrogation, and is something that all of a sudden the American public is starting to frown upon-including our friggin president.

  If you had a child, that child was kidnapped, and you had someone in your custody that possibly knew how to save your child, would you "water board" that person?  If so, then you get my point.  If not, you are not fit to have children or be in a position of power where protecting the people is the main objective.

Capital Punishment is bad?  Is it really?  Then boy oh boy, war regardless of objective, God would be strictly against.  Killing Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden, you really think God would disapprove?  I beg to dif

Don't let this thread turn into the atheism vs deism thread.  Not what I want to talk about.  What I wish to talk about is how/why we've lost our brass.

[frvge]

If you can't make up charges after 7 years, and you keep the 'terrorists' away from the very legal base you're so proud of... (land of the free, innocent till proven guilty, a shitload of lawyers), basically denying them all human rights... I'm against.

[VaNilla]

US the best country? I'm not going to say who lives in the best country, but who are you to judge? USA has hardly contributed to stability. Guess who started off the economic crisis? American bankers. Guess who bailed them out? The US government.

[Westfall]

Papa, did you vote in this past election? Are you of age?

You're the same irrational thought that has been plaguingvthis country for the past 8 years. Obama may not be the best option and we will all witness his presidential years, but it's better than any of the other options given. If McCain had won, we probably would've been way more fucked than we already are. Also, he's following the U.S. Constitution, unlike several who don't need to be named.... again.

Also, do you know what water boarding is? Apparently not. The act of making someone feel like they are drowning. Where's your rational thought now? 

[Snakebit.]

Obama haven't produced anything good yet . I don't think that simple closing of the Guantanamo base or whatever its called is a good idea . Its not that i am for 'torture' and 'hard investigation' but the problem is that its useful sometimes . In Juridical terminology there are things like The Scale Of Risk and The Scale of Importance .
That is one of the eternal questions in juridical practice . Should torture be allowed if it could get important information (Which could save people lives) This debate have been going for 100 years or more ........ And nobody still produced a good answer , so it just depends on your point of view.

Personally i think that torture is acceptable if it could save people BUT they have to be judged before that and torture should be ALLOWED BY THE COURT but its my personal opinion .

The problem in Guantanamo was that , that the goverment EXTRACTED INFORMATION WITHOUT JUDGING THEM . Thats one of the problems . You can't just take a random person of the street and start torturing him . Ofcaurse he will say anything you want after 2-3 months of constant torture or more.

I don't really understand American optimism about Obama . He isn't that different from Bush . He surely hasn't done anything better than Bush YeT. Bush wasn't that bad of a president , he just happened to be president in a very bad time for America . He didn't get elected on his first term to ' clean the 9/11 disaster. Every president is a hostage to events which happen in the world and they have to go with the flow .( I think your ex president Klinton said this and i am with him on this ) . His 2nd term was very inter connected with  9/11 and the so called 'war on terror' . Bush did one huge mistake thought . He didn't concentrate on Afghanistan that much and went to Iraq ( Which had it results by the way . The price of oil IS 40-50 dollars right now and that is not only because of the crisis and the price bubble exploding but also because of the opened Iraqi reserves ) . The most logical thing would be not to spread Democracy but to call it ' War on terror ' . He should have just came in Afganistan , replaced the goverment , bombed the shit out of Taliban + same thing in Iraq and quickly went home . His biggest mistake was to label his campaign 'to spread democracy' . If he hadn't done that he could just pull out quickly and all probably would be fine . Iraq at the least would have order right about now . Afganistan always have been a shit hole which nobody even came close to 'controlling' .

Bushes amendments to the constitution are also good. In my opinion . He tries to fight terror not only by external but also by internal affairs . He found several approaches to the problem .

Bushes invasion of Iraq WAS also a good thing to fight terrorism but he should have solved all the problems in Afganistan first and then go to Iraq . The problem is that Oil and Terrorism are connected NOT because America wants oil but because a BIG part of oil income goes to Fundamental Islamic organizations to fund their 'holy war'.

Logic is quite simple less price of oil ---> less income from oil ----> less funding for fundamental islamists AND it also helps with homeland economy growth which is ruined right now by GEC ( Global economical crisis ).

Bush also didn't get elected to fight the crisis . A lot of people call Bush ' the worst president in american history ' but i don't think so . First he got unlucky with 9/11 attack and than he got unlucky with the crisis . Don't say he could have prevented those because i doubt anyone could . Before 9/11 not many countries payed that much attention to terrorism and i doubt anyone of you guys knew anything about Al Qaida . The crisis is also a natural economical process. They happen from time to time because of a lot of different reasons. Economy can't always grove non-stop it has to shrink from time to time . ( readjusting itself a bit )

Now what Obama wants to do ? He wants to stop the crisis ( Which should end by itself in 1-2 years if no one tries to do anything and in about 9months or a year if somebody tries to do so .This is basic economical theory by the way . Well i might be wrong on the time frame.) The economy can't always shrink to it has to grow as well .

So Obama is a lucky fucker actually . First he uses how 'unpopular' Bush is with the people which gives him right now 87% support ? If i am not mistaking . Well his popularity will probably drop to 70-60 in next 1-2 years but when the crises ends it will go up to around 75-80 again and he will most likely win a 2nd term if he doesn't screw up something . ( Like for example the bail out on your auto makers which he HAS to do )

[Ion.67]

I don't give a flying shit how unlucky Bush got. It was his god damn job that he failed at miserably.

[Farley4Fan]

Obama haven't produced anything good yet . I don't think that simple closing of the Guantanamo base or whatever its called is a good idea . Its not that i am for 'torture' and 'hard investigation' but the problem is that its useful sometimes . In Juridical terminology there are things like The Scale Of Risk and The Scale of Importance .
That is one of the eternal questions in juridical practice . Should torture be allowed if it could get important information (Which could save people lives) This debate have been going for 100 years or more ........ And nobody still produced a good answer , so it just depends on your point of view.

Personally i think that torture is acceptable if it could save people BUT they have to be judged before that and torture should be ALLOWED BY THE COURT but its my personal opinion .

The problem in Guantanamo was that , that the goverment EXTRACTED INFORMATION WITHOUT JUDGING THEM . Thats one of the problems . You can't just take a random person of the street and start torturing him . Ofcaurse he will say anything you want after 2-3 months of constant torture or more.

I don't really understand American optimism about Obama . He isn't that different from Bush . He surely hasn't done anything better than Bush YeT. Bush wasn't that bad of a president , he just happened to be president in a very bad time for America . He didn't get elected on his first term to ' clean the 9/11 disaster. Every president is a hostage to events which happen in the world and they have to go with the flow .( I think your ex president Klinton said this and i am with him on this ) . His 2nd term was very inter connected with  9/11 and the so called 'war on terror' . Bush did one huge mistake thought . He didn't concentrate on Afghanistan that much and went to Iraq ( Which had it results by the way . The price of oil IS 40-50 dollars right now and that is not only because of the crisis and the price bubble exploding but also because of the opened Iraqi reserves ) . The most logical thing would be not to spread Democracy but to call it ' War on terror ' . He should have just came in Afganistan , replaced the goverment , bombed the shit out of Taliban + same thing in Iraq and quickly went home . His biggest mistake was to label his campaign 'to spread democracy' . If he hadn't done that he could just pull out quickly and all probably would be fine . Iraq at the least would have order right about now . Afganistan always have been a shit hole which nobody even came close to 'controlling' .

Bushes amendments to the constitution are also good. In my opinion . He tries to fight terror not only by external but also by internal affairs . He found several approaches to the problem .

Bushes invasion of Iraq WAS also a good thing to fight terrorism but he should have solved all the problems in Afganistan first and then go to Iraq . The problem is that Oil and Terrorism are connected NOT because America wants oil but because a BIG part of oil income goes to Fundamental Islamic organizations to fund their 'holy war'.

Logic is quite simple less price of oil ---> less income from oil ----> less funding for fundamental islamists AND it also helps with homeland economy growth which is ruined right now by GEC ( Global economical crisis ).

Bush also didn't get elected to fight the crisis . A lot of people call Bush ' the worst president in american history ' but i don't think so . First he got unlucky with 9/11 attack and than he got unlucky with the crisis . Don't say he could have prevented those because i doubt anyone could . Before 9/11 not many countries payed that much attention to terrorism and i doubt anyone of you guys knew anything about Al Qaida . The crisis is also a natural economical process. They happen from time to time because of a lot of different reasons. Economy can't always grove non-stop it has to shrink from time to time . ( readjusting itself a bit )

Now what Obama wants to do ? He wants to stop the crisis ( Which should end by itself in 1-2 years if no one tries to do anything and in about 9months or a year if somebody tries to do so .This is basic economical theory by the way . Well i might be wrong on the time frame.) The economy can't always shrink to it has to grow as well .

So Obama is a lucky fucker actually . First he uses how 'unpopular' Bush is with the people which gives him right now 87% support ? If i am not mistaking . Well his popularity will probably drop to 70-60 in next 1-2 years but when the crises ends it will go up to around 75-80 again and he will most likely win a 2nd term if he doesn't screw up something . ( Like for example the bail out on your auto makers which he HAS to do )

Very logical post.  Except if they extracted info from them and skipped the court step, doesn't that mean we can tell who could have info or not?  We saved lives, but they didn't have "rights", and people are concerned?  What if it saved YOUR life?  Not just you snakebit I'm talking to everyone here.  How funny it is that an attack could have been prevented and saved your life, but those people who were quite possibly unknowingly SAVED could still be against those methods of interrogation.  Ironic

Ion, it could have happened to anybody.  In fact, he probably saved us from an actual depression.  What if Gore was elected?  The same thing probably would have happened, maybe even worse, maybe better, but who can tell?  The drop of our economy was not solely Bush's fault, and the recovery of our economy won't be solely because of Obama.

If you can't make up charges after 7 years, and you keep the 'terrorists' away from the very legal base you're so proud of... (land of the free, innocent till proven guilty, a shitload of lawyers), basically denying them all human rights... I'm against.

If they are found on the battlefield, and shooting at you, they are guilty.  And don't think we're stupid.  I'm sure we've developed ways to determine who is a terrorist or not that no court could ever decide.  I'm sure we've made some mistakes, but I'm sure that it's also saved lives.  If one Islamic man is mistaken for a terrorist and held captive for 2 years, but another Islamic man provided information that saved 10-20 lives, isn't that worth it to keep it going?  How many lives should it cost in order to give the terrorists "their rights"?  Hmmm? 

Did you hear about that guy who convinced us that he wasn't a terrorist, so we let him go?  He's in Yemen right now, and he's right back in the battlefield and high up on our wanted list.  There really is NO WAY for a court to decide who is a radical Islam, is there?  Of 250 men we let go, 60 men were seen back on the battlefield and either shot at us, were killed, or were captured AGAIN.

.

Papa, did you vote in this past election? Are you of age?

You're the same irrational thought that has been plaguingvthis country for the past 8 years. Obama may not be the best option and we will all witness his presidential years, but it's better than any of the other options given. If McCain had won, we probably would've been way more fucked than we already are. Also, he's following the U.S. Constitution, unlike several who don't need to be named.... again.

Also, do you know what water boarding is? Apparently not. The act of making someone feel like they are drowning. Where's your rational thought now? 

Neither candidates were great, so who I voted for is irrelevant anyways.  And no, the irrational thought pattern that has been plaguing this country is LIBERALISM.  Don't you know how our country has shifted the last 8 years because of a constant hate of Bush?  Liberals are taking advantage of this economic crises to stimulate their OWN agenda, and that pisses me off.  But oh well, they've won this election.  Congress, senate, WHITE HOUSE, liberally owned.  Scary thought. 

If water boarding saves lives, and is used on suspected terrorists, why are you against it?  Yeah, sounds bad doesn't it?  Sounds like torture, but it's really not.  It's a method of interrogation, though harsh, it gets the job done with minimal pain and basically no long lasting mental effects.  But all that the detainees go through, things like water boarding, is nothing compared to the pain the families of the dead soldiers and even civilians will go through.  IT'S WORTH IT.  If there was no info to get from them, if there were no lives to be saved, if there were no ends to justify the means, of course I'd be against it.  Until then, I'll keep my balls quite in tact and attached.

[Roberto1223]

nice topic btw, but i disagree. you contradict yourself in many ways, ill mention a few.

Like it or not, America has NEVER been about doing what it's told to do because of friggin peer pressure.  We do the right thing [So um your saying that stupid war that leads to economic crisis was the right thing? and u wanted it to continue with Mccain?], the noble thing[...again... war is a noble thing? lol.], the things that the countries who lack the brass would never do.  We have our fair share of flaws but it's our will to fight and will to do right that makes us, no offense to any other countries, THE BEST.  Lately we'd rather blend in with the crowd than set an example[what do u even mean? lol, was making war setting an example? lol.] like we always have done[Dude do you even know history? The USA has always gone to war for economic interest, for power (not for saving lives like you believe) the US didnt enter the war after pearl harbor bombing, they were already in it making money out of it before that attack, by selling arms and food to other countries.].  And that's bullcrap. yes its bullshit for us do die because of some leaders greed. so fuck u. the economy was good enough, there was no real reason to go to war, bush just wanted to continue what his dad started, hes a stupid fuck.

Obama won't even allow the good-cop-bad-cop routine because we HAVE to use the manual?  For THESE GUYS?  My bologna has a first name, it's O-B-A-M-A.

Discussion.  Go.

[Roberto1223]

waterboarding IS torture.


um im against torture i guess but not against death penalty.

but i am against bush and mccain.

like westfall said, Obama is not gonna make miracles hes only human xD, but he was the better option!

[Westfall]

How many days has Obama been president Snakebit? Case and point.

Papa, you're possibly the most irrational person to start such a topic. Waterboarding is torture, whether you like it or not. Terrorists do the shit they do until death. They would blow themselves up, so what makes you think anyhting would make them talk? To sink to their level is a whole different moral topic. Keep your conservative rationale. It will only fuck you over in the end, no pity from this side. Sorry fir no elaboration, but typing on this iTouch is rough.

[Roberto1223]

I don't really understand American optimism about Obama . He isn't that different from Bush . He surely hasn't done anything better than Bush YeT.[well he just fuckin started dude hahah]

Bush didn't get elected on his first term to ' clean the 9/11 disaster.
Bush also didn't get elected to fight the crisis .[he started the crisis, he invested money that he did not have in a war that only he and his rich jewish friends wanted.]

why the fuck did he get elected then? because hes good for nothing? And actually if you remember, he did get elected because of the terrosism thing (911 mess) because thats the only thing he fucking blabed about, before/during his presidency haha.

So Obama is a lucky fucker actually . First he uses how 'unpopular' Bush is with the people which gives him right now 87% support ? If i am not mistaking . [well hell yes he did that to gain popularity because he knew it would work, and because hes also against all those dumb things bush did like most of us Americans are. another thing is that mccain accepted the fact that he was gonna continue with Bush's ideologies if he became president, so he himself lowered his own popularity.]

[Roberto1223]

ok papaskull here u go

Method: a procedure, technique, or way of doing something, esp. in accordance with a definite plan: There are three possible methods of repairing this motor.

Interrogate:  To examine by questioning formally or officially.

Torture: 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.


ok, you say its a "method of interrogation" that is incorrect because then your saying it is a "Technique for questioning formally more efficiently", but the definition of interrogation does not include the word pain anywhere in it; therefore, this not being a "method of interrogation".

now try "method of torture", it fits in. why? well because 'waterboarding' is a 'technique/way of inflicting pain as a means of getting a confession"

so this means waterboarding is torture. all i did was use analogies...

ok so now that u know why this is toture im gonna try to think why you thought it wasnt torture.

ok maybe because there is no blood? maybe because you think that water is harmless? well think again man, almost anything can be used to torture (yes anything even a fuckin banana [just think outside the box]). now think of this, do we humans have gills? no. can we breath under water? no.

do people suffer when they cant breath? yes. is it considered pain? yes.

Pain: 1. physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2. a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain. 

again, it fits in perfectly for  "method of torture".

try and see how long u can hold ur breath (i estimate one minute max if ur not a swimmer) now imagin what it would feel like if you are forced to hold it for 2 minutes or more. the fear of dying would force you to fight for ur life hence confessing or saying whatever the person inflicting the torture wants to hear.

i hope this helps u.

[Ion.67]

Let's say that you get taken falsely papa. In the USA they can't torture you. But they still do. EVEN THOUGH WE AREN'T AND SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO.

Let's just use the good old constitution to decide what's right.