So Begins the Castration of the great US of A

[monterto]

Obama haven't produced anything good yet . I don't think that simple closing of the Guantanamo base or whatever its called is a good idea . Its not that i am for 'torture' and 'hard investigation' but the problem is that its useful sometimes . In Juridical terminology there are things like The Scale Of Risk and The Scale of Importance .
That is one of the eternal questions in juridical practice . Should torture be allowed if it could get important information (Which could save people lives) This debate have been going for 100 years or more ........ And nobody still produced a good answer , so it just depends on your point of view.

Personally i think that torture is acceptable if it could save people BUT they have to be judged before that and torture should be ALLOWED BY THE COURT but its my personal opinion .

The problem in Guantanamo was that , that the goverment EXTRACTED INFORMATION WITHOUT JUDGING THEM . Thats one of the problems . You can't just take a random person of the street and start torturing him . Ofcaurse he will say anything you want after 2-3 months of constant torture or more.

I don't really understand American optimism about Obama . He isn't that different from Bush . He surely hasn't done anything better than Bush YeT. Bush wasn't that bad of a president , he just happened to be president in a very bad time for America . He didn't get elected on his first term to ' clean the 9/11 disaster. Every president is a hostage to events which happen in the world and they have to go with the flow .( I think your ex president Klinton said this and i am with him on this ) . His 2nd term was very inter connected with  9/11 and the so called 'war on terror' . Bush did one huge mistake thought . He didn't concentrate on Afghanistan that much and went to Iraq ( Which had it results by the way . The price of oil IS 40-50 dollars right now and that is not only because of the crisis and the price bubble exploding but also because of the opened Iraqi reserves ) . The most logical thing would be not to spread Democracy but to call it ' War on terror ' . He should have just came in Afganistan , replaced the goverment , bombed the shit out of Taliban + same thing in Iraq and quickly went home . His biggest mistake was to label his campaign 'to spread democracy' . If he hadn't done that he could just pull out quickly and all probably would be fine . Iraq at the least would have order right about now . Afganistan always have been a shit hole which nobody even came close to 'controlling' .

Bushes amendments to the constitution are also good. In my opinion . He tries to fight terror not only by external but also by internal affairs . He found several approaches to the problem .

Bushes invasion of Iraq WAS also a good thing to fight terrorism but he should have solved all the problems in Afganistan first and then go to Iraq . The problem is that Oil and Terrorism are connected NOT because America wants oil but because a BIG part of oil income goes to Fundamental Islamic organizations to fund their 'holy war'.

Logic is quite simple less price of oil ---> less income from oil ----> less funding for fundamental islamists AND it also helps with homeland economy growth which is ruined right now by GEC ( Global economical crisis ).

Bush also didn't get elected to fight the crisis . A lot of people call Bush ' the worst president in american history ' but i don't think so . First he got unlucky with 9/11 attack and than he got unlucky with the crisis . Don't say he could have prevented those because i doubt anyone could . Before 9/11 not many countries payed that much attention to terrorism and i doubt anyone of you guys knew anything about Al Qaida . The crisis is also a natural economical process. They happen from time to time because of a lot of different reasons. Economy can't always grove non-stop it has to shrink from time to time . ( readjusting itself a bit )

Now what Obama wants to do ? He wants to stop the crisis ( Which should end by itself in 1-2 years if no one tries to do anything and in about 9months or a year if somebody tries to do so .This is basic economical theory by the way . Well i might be wrong on the time frame.) The economy can't always shrink to it has to grow as well .

So Obama is a lucky fucker actually . First he uses how 'unpopular' Bush is with the people which gives him right now 87% support ? If i am not mistaking . Well his popularity will probably drop to 70-60 in next 1-2 years but when the crises ends it will go up to around 75-80 again and he will most likely win a 2nd term if he doesn't screw up something . ( Like for example the bail out on your auto makers which he HAS to do )

no

[Farley4Fan]

I won't get taken falsely because I have done nothing to make anyone else believe that I have interests in blowing up our troops or the bank down the street.  I don't look up how to make bombs on the internet, I don't support terrorist groups, we take prisoners with reasonable suspicion.  If you think that we are just taking random people out of the middle east then you are mistaken.  Anyone that has done things like I just mentioned should be investigated, and if need be, killed or taken in for questioning.  Depends on situation.

And yes, let's use the constitution.  Sure.  Give them a quick trial.  How you will prove a terrorist's innocence is beyond me.  But if it's obvious - detainee screaming death to America, praise bin laden, the whole shebang, skip the trial and question him. 

ok papaskull here u go

Method: a procedure, technique, or way of doing something, esp. in accordance with a definite plan: There are three possible methods of repairing this motor.

Interrogate:  To examine by questioning formally or officially.

Torture: 1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.


ok, you say its a "method of interrogation" that is incorrect because then your saying it is a "Technique for questioning formally more efficiently", but the definition of interrogation does not include the word pain anywhere in it; therefore, this not being a "method of interrogation".

now try "method of torture", it fits in. why? well because 'waterboarding' is a 'technique/way of inflicting pain as a means of getting a confession"

so this means waterboarding is torture. all i did was use analogies...

ok so now that u know why this is toture im gonna try to think why you thought it wasnt torture.

ok maybe because there is no blood? maybe because you think that water is harmless? well think again man, almost anything can be used to torture (yes anything even a fuckin banana [just think outside the box]). now think of this, do we humans have gills? no. can we breath under water? no.

do people suffer when they cant breath? yes. is it considered pain? yes.

Pain: 1. physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2. a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain. 

again, it fits in perfectly for  "method of torture".

try and see how long u can hold ur breath (i estimate one minute max if ur not a swimmer) now imagin what it would feel like if you are forced to hold it for 2 minutes or more. the fear of dying would force you to fight for ur life hence confessing or saying whatever the person inflicting the torture wants to hear.

i hope this helps u.

Proves nothing, hahaha.  Good try.  Also, in your other post, you didn't show me 1 contradiction like you said it was full of them.  You just stated your opinion on every sentence and didn't show me where I contradicted myself once.  Another great try.

I said it was a harsh method of interrogation.  And that's completely true.  This is what I'm talking about when I say that America has been castrated.  Sympothizing with terrorists?  GOOD LORD.  We aren't going to water board just an everyday Iraqi civilian that gives us a funny look, we have reasonable suspicion with the intent to SAVE LIVES through intense interrogation.  "Oh, but No!  Waaah!  We can't make them think they are going to drown but really aren't going to!  That's just cruel!  Waaah!"  What would end up happening, is MORE troops would die (without intelligence from detainees) and Bush would get blamed for more troop deaths!  WTF!  It's a circle and you can't have it both ways.  Would you rather see American troops/people die, or would you rather see a terrorist with his head in a bucket?  Choice is obvious so long as you got your balls and brain screwed on tight.  Open your eyes.

How many days has Obama been president Snakebit? Case and point.

Papa, you're possibly the most irrational person to start such a topic. Waterboarding is torture, whether you like it or not. Terrorists do the shit they do until death. They would blow themselves up, so what makes you think anyhting would make them talk? To sink to their level is a whole different moral topic. Keep your conservative rationale. It will only fuck you over in the end, no pity from this side. Sorry fir no elaboration, but typing on this iTouch is rough.

So, you're saying that they won't talk?  Water boarding is more effective than you believe, obviously.  One reason you're against it is because you don't believe it's worth it?  Okay, well you're wrong.  Simply put.  If it water boarding or any other similar method of interrogation has not provided us with any important info then why would we continue to do it?  Hmm?  Oh, that's right, because it has helped.

[Tidenburg]

I think if there's one thing we've learned from the Flamethrower threads, Religion Debate and this topic is that you can argue all you like but Papa isn't going to take any comments on board at all.


I'm going to try and keep my contribution to this thread at this: Papaskull, you're mentally ill if you think people never get wrongly accused or suspected of terrorism, these people could be tortured and forced into false confessions even though they've done nothing wrong. Torture is torture, no matter who it is being performed on, just like killing a murderer for revenge is still murder.

Sinking to their level is not only questionable for countries as advanced as ours, but also a great demonstration of how blind people are into thinking they are safe in their own country. As Ion said, in america you cannot torture... but they still do, it's a bit Animal Farm-esque that everyone is equal, until we SUSPECT that they are a terrorist, either EVERYONE is equal, or they aren't.

It's also despicable that you call yourself religious and still believe this kind of stuff is acceptable for the reason that they have plotted to do the same against us, live in your delusions but either way, i'm pretty sure you'd go to hell for torturing someone, no matter who they may be.

I like you Papaskull, but when you debate you turn into a stereotypical American (i'll spare you the list).



Bai. ;D

[frvge]

Given the fog of propaganda surrounding the Guantanamo prisoners ââ,¬â€œwho Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld once famously described as ââ,¬Å"the worst of the worstââ,¬ÂÃ¢â,¬â€œ it may be surprising to learn that, according to the Pentagon itself, only 5 percent of all detainees at Guantanamo were ever apprehended by U.S. forces to begin with.

Why is that? Almost all of the detainees were turned over to American forces by foreigners, either with an ax to grind, or more often for a hefty bounty or reward. After U.S. forces invaded Afghanistan in late 2001, a reward of $5,000 or more was given to Pakistanis and Afghans for each detainee turned over.

While rewards can be a valuable law enforcement tool, they have never in the past absolved law enforcement authorities of the necessity of corroborating the information that motivated the reward. But the U.S. military accepted the uncorroborated allegations of the award claimants with little independent investigation.

So if I hate my Afghan neighbour and I point local law enforment to him claiming he's a terrorist, I get $5000 (thats a lot for an Afghan I think) and he's tortured for free in some prison far away. His crime? Nothing.

[Cyntrox]

If water boarding saves lives, and is used on suspected terrorists, why are you against it?  Yeah, sounds bad doesn't it?  Sounds like torture, but it's really not.  It's a method of interrogation, though harsh, it gets the job done with minimal pain and basically no long lasting mental effects.  But all that the detainees go through, things like water boarding, is nothing compared to the pain the families of the dead soldiers and even civilians will go through.  IT'S WORTH IT.  If there was no info to get from them, if there were no lives to be saved, if there were no ends to justify the means, of course I'd be against it.  Until then, I'll keep my balls quite in tact and attached.

Ah, you really are too funny. Try reading a single word about the psychological effects of mock executions.

Also, http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
it was signed by the US.

[Spark Mandriller]

Like it or not, America has NEVER been about doing what it's told to do because of friggin peer pressure.  We do the right thing, the noble thing, the things that the countries who lack the brass would never do.

Torture is right and noble?

[Kubanator]

I won't get taken falsely because I have done nothing to make anyone else believe that I have interests in blowing up our troops or the bank down the street.  I don't look up how to make bombs on the internet, I don't support terrorist groups, we take prisoners with reasonable suspicion.  If you think that we are just taking random people out of the middle east then you are mistaken.  Anyone that has done things like I just mentioned should be investigated, and if need be, killed or taken in for questioning.  Depends on situation.

You're being naive. You assume that everyone is good and perfect, and everything will run like it should. This is Earth. There are mistakes. Some people get put in there with no evidence against them. Some people are put in there because someone feels like abusing power. And guess what? No one can do anything.

And yes, let's use the constitution.  Sure.  Give them a quick trial.  How you will prove a terrorist's innocence is beyond me.  But if it's obvious - detainee screaming death to America, praise bin laden, the whole shebang, skip the trial and question him. 

That's not proof. Proof is he put a bomb here, or attacked a guy there. All you have is circumstantial evidence. You're assuming that he did it, without even proving it. That's like saying that since you shouted at your girlfriend (or boyfriend), and she turned up dead 10 hours later, you did it, and you should be put in Guantanamo Bay.

I said it was a harsh method of interrogation.  And that's completely true.  This is what I'm talking about when I say that America has been castrated.  Sympothizing with terrorists?  GOOD LORD.  We aren't going to water board just an everyday Iraqi civilian that gives us a funny look, we have reasonable suspicion with the intent to SAVE LIVES through intense interrogation.  "Oh, but No!  Waaah!  We can't make them think they are going to drown but really aren't going to!  That's just cruel!  Waaah!"  What would end up happening, is MORE troops would die (without intelligence from detainees) and Bush would get blamed for more troop deaths!  WTF!  It's a circle and you can't have it both ways.  Would you rather see American troops/people die, or would you rather see a terrorist with his head in a bucket?  Choice is obvious so long as you got your balls and brain screwed on tight.  Open your eyes.

Ah but they do. Ever heard of suspected terrorists? You know what those are? They're people who are assumed to be terrorists. Assumed. And they get throw into Guantanamo Bay. Yes, that Iraqi citizen will get thrown in, if he so much as utters the word "bomb". And you can't say tortures harmless. They usually end up killing the tortured person anyways.

So, you're saying that they won't talk?  Water boarding is more effective than you believe, obviously.  One reason you're against it is because you don't believe it's worth it?  Okay, well you're wrong.  Simply put.  If it water boarding or any other similar method of interrogation has not provided us with any important info then why would we continue to do it?  Hmm?  Oh, that's right, because it has helped.

But what it has done, is abused many innocent people, when peoples time could be better spent actually finding real terrorists. Remember, just because the government says it, doesn't mean its true. That just makes you a sheep. If you can prove that not one innocent person ended up in Guantanamo Bay, without saying that the government said they didn't, then you are correct in your opinion. Otherwise, whatever you say is without merit.

[Farley4Fan]

I think if there's one thing we've learned from the Flamethrower threads, Religion Debate and this topic is that you can argue all you like but Papa isn't going to take any comments on board at all.

Religion debate?  No no no.  Especially  about things like the origin of our universe, I'm all ears.  Please, spare me.  Flamethrower debate?  Hahaa, no.  There were hardly any valid arguments at all, and by the time I got some, the thread was dead. 


I'm going to try and keep my contribution to this thread at this: Papaskull, you're mentally ill if you think people never get wrongly accused or suspected of terrorism, these people could be tortured and forced into false confessions even though they've done nothing wrong. Torture is torture, no matter who it is being performed on, just like killing a murderer for revenge is still murder.

OF COURSE SOME HAVE.  You do this A LOT Tidenburg.  I say something, then you completely ignore or read over it, and blast me even though it's you who is at fault.  I've said there have been mistakes, false accusations.  Remember that?  No, probably not, flew over your head.  My question, more of a point, was when does it become worth it?  If one person is falsely accused and tortured , but another is rightly accused and tortured, and the information recieved from him allows us to save 10, 15, maybe 20 lives - isn't that worth it?  One man gets falsely tortured, although absolutely horrible, but the continuation of the program allows more lives to be saved.  10-20 lives a pop not worth it because one man is falsely accused and water boarded?  No logic.

Sinking to their level is not only questionable for countries as advanced as ours, but also a great demonstration of how blind people are into thinking they are safe in their own country. As Ion said, in america you cannot torture... but they still do, it's a bit Animal Farm-esque that everyone is equal, until we SUSPECT that they are a terrorist, either EVERYONE is equal, or they aren't.

No, apparently, in America you can't harshly interrogate a suspected terrorist (remember, most of the time they aren't SUSPECTED FOR NOTHING buddy) and that's why we've been castrated.  We care too much about the feelings of those who wish to do us harm.  Appeasement.  Like if we treat them better they'll treat us better, and that's BS.  No one has anything to say about the "SUSPECTED" terrorists who return right back to the battlefield and kill us?  No?  No surprise there, you're all too busy caring about if 1 man gets falsely imprisoned or not. 

It's also despicable that you call yourself religious and still believe this kind of stuff is acceptable for the reason that they have plotted to do the same against us, live in your delusions but either way, i'm pretty sure you'd go to hell for torturing someone, no matter who they may be.

For the reason that they have plotted to do the same against us?  And I'm delusional?  Wtf?  It's would be despicable if a religious (or non-religious I don't give a shit) person would not torture in order to save innocent lives.  It's like basic math.  1 wrong prevents 20 wrongs.  SIMPLE.  Duh.  I think God would be pissed off if you'd rather not get important life saving info by WATER BOARDING someone.  Back to what I said about water boarding for the sake of your kids, wouldn't you do it?  What if your kids were in danger, and the only way to possibly save them was to water board some terrorist.  Wouldn't you do it?  That's the life of the president my friend, he must take care of his citizens like they are his children.  Someone without the balls to interrogate a terrorist I DO NOT want to be my protector, nor should you. 

I like you Papaskull, but when you debate you turn into a stereotypical American (i'll spare you the list).
stereotypical American.  That's great.  That's a problem right there with your logic.  American=Ignorant.  Bullshit.  Anything different, or anything with a little more brass, run away you say.  Are you from France?  No, I don't want to drop to your level.  I take it back.



Bai. ;D

[Farley4Fan]

But Papa Skull you're mind is seriously fucked up if you don't think gay people should have the same rights as you

Remember this tidenburg?  If there's one thing I've learned about Tidenburg it's that shit always goes over his head, then he tries to insult you even though you agree with what he said 100%.

<3 Burg

Yeah, and that's real fucking funny whoever tried to change the title of my thread.  Real mature.  Stay away from the discussion and take sniper shots, betcha feel real cool right now huh? 

I love these kinds of heated discussions.  Let's keep it going.  All those who have an opinion, let's hear it.  Even the pansy mod that thinks he's funny.

[Spark Mandriller]

I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG
I AM RIGHT AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS WRONG

[CougarC.A.T.]

Intelligence should be better and more organized in the United States government. PERIOD. We shouldn't have to tortue people. When people are tortured they will confess to anything to stop the pain at that moment. Torture is wrong and im glad Obama is straighting things out.

Maybe the less violent we are and stop bullying everyone around the world the 'Great US of A' might just have a few less enemies. How do we tell countries to stop their violence when they observe us torturing prisoners?

And stop insulting people when they have rational arguements against your flame tantrums...

[goodkebab]

Actually,  Bush castrasted America.


The United states economy is falling apart,  America is at war with no possible conclusion in 2 different countries,  the unemployment is higher then ever in sever decades,   the Dollar is incredibly low in value,  the deficit is astronomical. 

The American Empire has fallen.

I think that is for the better interest of  America. 

Papa,  what you may not be aware of is that for several decades  USA has been trying to secure natural resources in South America and Africa.  To secure these resources it has been installing puppet governments and training militias  to deliberately  make a country unstable so that American Corporations can steal the resources without any political intervention.  Millions of people have been killed,  even genocides  as result of the American govt.  manipulations.

Terrorism is  a REACTION  to this.  The current generation of Terrorism is not a blind religious hatred against Democracy or Christianity,  or even the American way of life.  It is a revenge for what America has raped from weaker countries. 

[frvge]

One of the few countries in the world not recognizing the International Court of Justice is the USA. Why? According to its definitions, Bush would be a war-criminal. I hope Obama will recognize it.

[Tidenburg]

OF COURSE SOME HAVE.  You do this A LOT Tidenburg.  I say something, then you completely ignore or read over it, and blast me even though it's you who is at fault.  I've said there have been mistakes, false accusations.  Remember that?  No, probably not, flew over your head.  My question, more of a point, was when does it become worth it?  If one person is falsely accused and tortured , but another is rightly accused and tortured, and the information recieved from him allows us to save 10, 15, maybe 20 lives - isn't that worth it?  One man gets falsely tortured, although absolutely horrible, but the continuation of the program allows more lives to be saved.  10-20 lives a pop not worth it because one man is falsely accused and water boarded?  No logic.

Actually, that wasn't intentional that I skipped over your posts, large walls of texts with no distinct paragraphs are a hugh no-no that I will not read, no matter who they are from. Torture makes over countries look down on yours, when you tell them to stop killing, all the while doing it yourself you seem hypocrytical anda re no better than them.

No, apparently, in America you can't harshly interrogate a suspected terrorist (remember, most of the time they aren't SUSPECTED FOR NOTHING buddy) and that's why we've been castrated.  We care too much about the feelings of those who wish to do us harm.  Appeasement.  Like if we treat them better they'll treat us better, and that's BS.  No one has anything to say about the "SUSPECTED" terrorists who return right back to the battlefield and kill us?  No?  No surprise there, you're all too busy caring about if 1 man gets falsely imprisoned or not. 

It's not just the one innocent man, unlike you I see terrorists as people, even though they are a pathetic excuse for a person, they should still have the same rights as us all. I obviously don't care about they're "feelings" because i'm all for Capital punishment as soon as they are 100% solidly prooved guilty as soon as uncircumstancial evidence is put forward.

For the reason that they have plotted to do the same against us?  And I'm delusional?  Wtf?  It's would be despicable if a religious (or non-religious I don't give a shit) person would not torture in order to save innocent lives.  It's like basic math.  1 wrong prevents 20 wrongs.  SIMPLE.  Duh.  I think God would be pissed off if you'd rather not get important life saving info by WATER BOARDING someone.  Back to what I said about water boarding for the sake of your kids, wouldn't you do it?  What if your kids were in danger, and the only way to possibly save them was to water board some terrorist.  Wouldn't you do it?  That's the life of the president my friend, he must take care of his citizens like they are his children.  Someone without the balls to interrogate a terrorist I DO NOT want to be my protector, nor should you. 

stereotypical American.  That's great.  That's a problem right there with your logic.  American=Ignorant.  Bullshit.  Anything different, or anything with a little more brass, run away you say.  Are you from France?  No, I don't want to drop to your level.  I take it back.

Actually the list would have been, thickheaded (not open to other's arguments), blindly religious, Arrogant, self-righteous (thinking your country is the best no matter what it does) and niave.



Bai. ;D

[AgentX_003]

Actually,  Bush castrasted America.


The United states economy is falling apart,  America is at war with no possible conclusion in 2 different countries,  the unemployment is higher then ever in sever decades,   the Dollar is incredibly low in value,  the deficit is astronomical. 

The American Empire has fallen.

I think that is for the better interest of  America. 

Papa,  what you may not be aware of is that for several decades  USA has been trying to secure natural resources in South America and Africa.  To secure these resources it has been installing puppet governments and training militias  to deliberately  make a country unstable so that American Corporations can steal the resources without any political intervention.  Millions of people have been killed,  even genocides  as result of the American govt.  manipulations.

Terrorism is  a REACTION  to this.  The current generation of Terrorism is not a blind religious hatred against Democracy or Christianity,  or even the American way of life.  It is a revenge for what America has raped from weaker countries. 

goodkebab is enlightened :) , yes there are such things that goodkebab speak of like the Illuminati

and also the UnitedStated doesn't need the Federal reserve , they take your Money and make you pay tax you don't have to.