How do you think PS would play if the spy had a pistol?

[VaNilla]

I think this whole argument can be shortened if you think about the main reason it's so bloody stupid. It's already easy to use up all your gadgets, and you want people to never have a refill? Even if you increased the amount they have, why? It's just absolutely pointless, it adds nothing to the game whatsoever, you're just being stubborn.

[DreadStunLock]

Here's my idea for a refil.







Note: It should only for with 1 gadget that is being specified by the Production Team, or give an option to choose which 1 gadget the player would like to be able to refil.

Note 2: Same concept goes for the spies.

Note 3: I think it would be fair because when a mercenary looses all of his gadgets he is not really at a disadvantage because he can still kill with bullets without needing much of his arsenal. It's quite a different story for spies since the shadows don't really place a DoT on a mercenary while a spy is trying to grab him or keep him in the shadows.

[knooger]

I think this whole argument can be shortened if you think about the main reason it's so bloody stupid. It's already easy to use up all your gadgets, and you want people to never have a refill? Even if you increased the amount they have, why? It's just absolutely pointless, it adds nothing to the game whatsoever, you're just being stubborn.

I accept with it.
I think you're going in wrong way guys with trying to change that what don't really need to be changed.

[Ion.67]

1. A point on the map that is accessible by both sides. It creates a choke point that isn't needed and would enable camping.

This won't be true 100% of the time. In fact, it would only be true if the map was poorly designed. A well designed map would make the mercs move to guard both the ammo refill and the remaining objectives. Additionally, mercs camp...that's what happens when you have to guard objectives that typically don't move. It's part of the game. Camping is only a problem when mercs camp somewhere where they are nearly invulnerable, eg on top of the rails in Sector 2 of Station.

You won't always know if a spy is low on gadgets. Sure, you can guess he is if he spams smokes early, but that doesn't mean he has to go for a refill; he could still choose to attack objectives with what he has left.

Besides, "Chokepoints" are good for the game, provided you can balance out spies and mercs. They create action and force the spies to try to solve a problem, rather than run around objective tapping for 10 minutes like in Club House.

A spy with no gadgets is a basically worthless spy when it comes to a confrontation. Sure, he can hack, but he would be easily defeated. Camping the ammo box when one spy needs gadgets would be effective, but near game breaking if you knew both spies were out.

The whole strategic part of being a spy involves the use of your gadgets. I just can't see a way that refills fix anything. No refills at all would work to make gameplay slower and more strategic, but some people already play the game extremely slow. No action for 5 minutes = boring game. Refills seem like a way of adding an extra challenge to the spy, who is already at a disadvantage.

My Suggestion: Refill on death.
My #2 Suggestion: No refills at all, higher number of gadgets at start.

Just a thought: how many times can you refill per life?

[DreadStunLock]

Ok, might as well leave it original because this is getting retarded.

Suggestions:

1. Refil on death.
2. Each gadget should be no more than 5 charges.
3. Not many players really survive 1 live and waste all of the gadgets, unless the mercenary lags and/or a a shit shot where burst shooting misses.

[Spekkio]

Just a thought: how many times can you refill per life?

As many times as you like. There are a finite amount of X item on the map, it's up to you to decide when to use it.

[Ion.67]

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

[NeoSuperior]

As i said... make the refill points in the spawns, and/or merc-/spy-only areas and let them take their time for it.

10% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 1 sec
50% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 5 sec
100% refill for 1 type of gadget (including GM) 10 sec


If you respawn you still get all new EQ like in CT. But you could make merc's respawn time longer than spy's respawn time.
Problem solved(... well MAYBE)

[Farley4Fan]

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map.  Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to.  Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.

[Ion.67]

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map.  Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to.  Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.

I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.

I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground

[Spekkio]

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

The game isn't JUST about stealth, and making a game with little to no confrontation is boring for all parties involved.

I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.

But in such a wide open area like that, there is never a reason for you to engage the mercs. The game can be won by just staying in inaccessible areas and tapping objectives until it's over.

[Farley4Fan]

Chokepoints in a game about stealth seem to hinder the experience. The fun part of being a spy is having tons of routes to take; a chokepoint hinders that. I still don't like that idea.

A chokepoint helps the mapper balance the map.  Being stealthy doesn't mean you never have to come face to face with a merc because there are billions of vents the merc can't get to.  Stealthy can also mean being 3 feet away from an unknowing merc in a chokepoint area.

I prefer the game where I could be anywhere, and the merc only knows 1/3 of the places I will maybe go to. I don't like the idea of having the maps set up like a list of places that a spy will likely go to and checking between them. You only hack for like 30 seconds out of 10 minutes, but you would need ammo many more times.

I don't like the idea for that reason. It adds an unnecessary area of the map that will become high traffic and a DM playground

If you don't like that idea then you must not like PT/CT because that's exactly how it was.  You need to think about the merc in this case.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be multiple routes in the maps, but map knowledge means nothing when a spy can hop in a vent and pop out anywhere/hack anything. 

Again, being stealthy doesn't mean you are far away from the mercs at all times.  Being stealthy means you are close and they don't know it.

[DreadStunLock]

Being stealthy ALSO CAN mean you are close and the mercenary doesn't know it. Being Stealthy is being anonymous and in PS/PT/CT means noone except your team knows where you are...Literally.

[Ion.67]

You guys are completely wrong.

Spekkio: You say that FPS games refill on death because they are boring and you are supposed to die a lot, and in the next breath say that this game needs checkpoints and stealth isn't the objective. Stealth IS the objective for the spy team, and the mercs objective is to foil the spies plan. Sure, being stealthy doesn't always work, and aggro is a part of the game, but for the most part, you design a stealth game around stealth. My opinion has always been to design for stealth but not limit aggro. Same thing here. The game is not boring because you don't see anything, it is boring because nothing happens. Key difference: sight vs gameplay. If I hack an objective and you never suspected I was there and I make a clean getaway, I have beaten you in every aspect. Maps should be designed with darkness playing a key role. Otherwise why not make day maps and less routes? Stealth is key when thinking about gameplay issues.

Farley: Map knowledge always helps. No doubt. That is why the maps should not include 6 key areas but instead include the whole map in the search. If I use, on average, 3 smokes per life, I will need to hit the ammo box quite a bit. I only need to hack 3 times, but I need to refill my gadgets many more. Do you see where I am going? The ammo boxes will become more important than objectives. Having knowledge of certain vents and pathways will still help immensely.

[CurdyMilk]

Again, being stealthy doesn't mean you are far away from the mercs at all times.  Being stealthy means you are close and they don't know it.

Being stealthy ALSO CAN mean you are close and the mercenary doesn't know it.

Nice contribution there Dread.  ;)