Since you can only have one "epoxy cam" shot at a time, what if there was a new gadget?
The diversion camera would not have gas, but would have other special features. It would have a sound option, which pings the reticle, and possibly makes some noise. It also can be used as a security system. What I mean, is that there could be multiple cams fired, and you can cycle through them.
I also suggest that you hear all of the audio around this camera. I am not sure how the epoxy cam would work, but I don't think it should transmit sound.
Thoughts?
Interesting. Maybe it could project sound so that the reticule pings where it was aiming.
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound disturbances/pinging reticle: snares, current cams, drawing your gun or running around for the hell of it
Looking through the camera: current sticky cams
Multiple cams being fired: I don't know how useful this would be considering that most mercs are quite good at finding and shooting out cams already
Quote from: Spekkio on March 13, 2008, 02:03:37 AM
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound disturbances/pinging reticle: snares, current cams, drawing your gun or running around for the hell of it
Looking through the camera: current sticky cams
Multiple cams being fired: I don't know how useful this would be considering that most mercs are quite good at finding and shooting out cams already
I don't think you can consider running around a disturbance, since it would be helpful for the merc, not disturbing.
Whether this is a good gadget or not, it makes more sense than a holopod.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 13, 2008, 02:03:37 AM
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound pings on command. Snares provide sound that acts as interference, but they arne't truly a diversion. This thing would actually produce sound that the mercs may mistake for a real spy because you can have it produce the sound in a more realistic way, instead of just spamming reticule pings.
Actually, snares erratically give off ambient noises such as a spy running/walking and a spy pulling out his gun.
Quote from: Vega on March 13, 2008, 03:35:50 AM
Actually, snares erratically give off ambient noises such as a spy running/walking and a spy pulling out his gun.
wow wisdom really does come with age , but I believe around the time cams and such were being made this was already discussed =/ as far as to my knowledge anyway
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 13, 2008, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 13, 2008, 02:03:37 AM
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound pings on command. Snares provide sound that acts as interference, but they arne't truly a diversion. This thing would actually produce sound that the mercs may mistake for a real spy because you can have it produce the sound in a more realistic way, instead of just spamming reticule pings.
What Vega said.
Maybe you should be able to control your alarm snares rather than cams. Kind of like a remote controlled alarm snare. If not, then there shouldn't really be anything else.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 13, 2008, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 13, 2008, 02:03:37 AM
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound pings on command. Snares provide sound that acts as interference, but they arne't truly a diversion. This thing would actually produce sound that the mercs may mistake for a real spy because you can have it produce the sound in a more realistic way, instead of just spamming reticule pings.
What Vega said.
Maybe you should be able to control your alarm snares rather than cams. Kind of like a remote controlled alarm snare. If not, then there shouldn't really be anything else.
Agree, with vega and west
Quote from: FusionSlayer on March 13, 2008, 12:13:02 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 13, 2008, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 13, 2008, 02:03:37 AM
What does this bring to the table that cannot already be done through other equipment?
Sound pings on command. Snares provide sound that acts as interference, but they arne't truly a diversion. This thing would actually produce sound that the mercs may mistake for a real spy because you can have it produce the sound in a more realistic way, instead of just spamming reticule pings.
What Vega said.
Maybe you should be able to control your alarm snares rather than cams. Kind of like a remote controlled alarm snare. If not, then there shouldn't really be anything else.
Agree, with vega and west
Me too
Diversion cams have been discussed before, I believe. I think what would be more interesting to add to the game would be an alternative to sticky cams called network cams. You could set up 5 cams at a time and switch between them but they wouldn't have gas. But that's been discussed also.
we already had this discussion.
there's too much gadget overlapping like spekkio said.
besides, how many times do you actually use stickies for recon in ct? (the only maps i make use of this is factory and river mall but one cam is sufficient)
Quote from: Gawain on March 13, 2008, 03:06:00 PM
we already had this discussion.
there's too much gadget overlapping like spekkio said.
besides, how many times do you actually use stickies for recon in ct? (the only maps i make use of this is factory and river mall but one cam is sufficient)
It would always be nice to have a second cam down, but one does the job just fine. Since cams are overpowered already, I don't think it should be upped at all.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 13, 2008, 05:18:17 AM
wow wisdom really does come with age
Martin, I knew about this long ago. Just because I don't talk/play CT non-stop does not mean I'm clueless about the game. I stopped playing CT with you years ago. I know you mean no harm, but the above quote coming from you of all people is particularly ironic and generally misplaced.
Quote from: Vega on March 13, 2008, 05:51:10 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 13, 2008, 05:18:17 AM
wow wisdom really does come with age
Martin, I knew about this long ago. Just because I don't talk/play CT non-stop does not mean I'm clueless about the game. I stopped playing CT with you years ago. I know you mean no harm, but the above quote coming from you of all people is particularly ironic and generally misplaced.
:-[ :-\ sorry vegetable / what i mean't by that really is , your actually putting logic into your ideas rather then say 2 years ago of nothing but spam / nonsense.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 13, 2008, 02:53:02 PM
Diversion cams have been discussed before, I believe. I think what would be more interesting to add to the game would be an alternative to sticky cams called network cams. You could set up 5 cams at a time and switch between them but they wouldn't have gas. But that's been discussed also.
But the spies already have plenty of recon available to them through the HBS and spy bullets. The usefulness of taking the time to set up a "cam network" for spies is questionable at best. Time is limited, and if you're playing stealthy, you can't really waste it by setting up something that two other gadgets do instantly.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 07:14:46 AM
Maybe you should be able to control your alarm snares rather than cams. Kind of like a remote controlled alarm snare. If not, then there shouldn't really be anything else.
The purpose is still largely different. The idea of a diversion cam is to create a diversion. Basically to make the merc think your'e in one spot and then be actually in another. That may mean a quick reticule ping and then the cam never goes off for awhile. So unliek a snare, the diversion cam isnt' obvious. It'd also be nice if the diver cam could duplicate a lot of sounds. A SS shot, launching a grenade + grenade explosion, spy walking, camo active, and so on.
Again, snares create "noise" that you use to cover when you're running around. Diversion cam create realistic sounds that the merc may mistake for a spy.
That's not any overlap at all, in fact it's two completely different functions.
uhm, this would be heavy function overlapping, both with cams and snares. if you want to use cams for recon, try it out. you will find out that it's not worth the time setting up the cam(s) unless in some big open room you have to cross anyways (factory main hall and maybe digger). it's also a very bad idea to have the cams make a single realistic noise as the mercs should be able to determine if it's fake or not, otherwise it results in a total new guessing game.
Quote from: Gawain on March 13, 2008, 09:49:28 PM
it's also a very bad idea to have the cams make a single realistic noise as the mercs should be able to determine if it's fake or not, otherwise it results in a total new guessing game.
You may be right. I don't know what kind of balance ramifications it will have. I do however know that the distraction sound function doesn't overlap snares. It may be imbalanced, but it's not an overlap.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 05:04:02 PM
Quote from: Gawain on March 13, 2008, 03:06:00 PM
we already had this discussion.
there's too much gadget overlapping like spekkio said.
besides, how many times do you actually use stickies for recon in ct? (the only maps i make use of this is factory and river mall but one cam is sufficient)
It would always be nice to have a second cam down, but one does the job just fine. Since cams are overpowered already, I don't think it should be upped at all.
It wouldn't be upping sticky cams at all since it would be a whole new gadget.
How is a new gadget with a new function overlapping? You may be right though that it would be useless at times. Hopefully maps are designed more like factory and river mall anyways. The only maps I use stickies for recon would be Museum, Factory, River Mall, and 1 outside of deftech. The reason I don't use it for recon that often is because you can only have 1 at a time, and 1 sticky cam is pretty precious on most maps. Wouldn't want to waste it.
If I make my way through the map I'd prefer to have a security system than not have one, wouldn't you? It wouldn't take that much time, but it depends on if you can stay alive long enough to make it to each vital room. Having 5 cameras in key rooms/hallways/chokepoints would so beat having a limited ranged hearbeat sensor.
But whatever, I don't love the idea of security cams but I'd like to have them on some maps.
QuoteHow is a new gadget with a new function overlapping?
Because it's not a new function. There's nothing that a "diversion cam" can do that can't be done already.
Network cam =/= diversion cam :P
besides having a different name, of course XD
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 14, 2008, 02:32:51 AM
Network cam =/= diversion cam :P
Okay...and the point of the "network cam" would be to get recon on the merc, right? Well, spy bullets will tell you where a merc is on your radar, and they take much less time to set up. HBS will tell you where the merc is on the radar, and it takes little to know time to employ. Meanwhile, walking around and setting up 5 cams in spots where the mercs won't shoot them out immediately but they can still see a good vantage point (which sounds impossible on the surface, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) would take at least a minute or two.
pwned.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 14, 2008, 03:04:48 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 14, 2008, 02:32:51 AM
Network cam =/= diversion cam :P
Okay...and the point of the "network cam" would be to get recon on the merc, right? Well, spy bullets will tell you where a merc is on your radar, and they take much less time to set up. HBS will tell you where the merc is on the radar, and it takes little to know time to employ. Meanwhile, walking around and setting up 5 cams in spots where the mercs won't shoot them out immediately but they can still see a good vantage point (which sounds impossible on the surface, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) would take at least a minute or two.
Pwned? Damn give me a chance to respond. sheesh.
The point of the network cam would be to check large areas or key hallways all in a chain of sticky cams you can have at once. Can 1 or 2 spy bullets watch the entire garden/red room in club house? How about the vault in bank? Nope, it's got a small range. With a cam you can watch the whole entire room, and not the 5 meters or so radius that the spy bullets work for. And even if the spy bullet's range was bigger you wouldn't be able to see what the merc was doing. However, with 1 cam you can see if a merc is planting mines/traps and where he actually is. And you get 5 cams all with an unlimited range of view. Bullets take just as long to set up as stickies, so that point doesn't have the slightest matter.
Think of a camnet that the spies themselves get to set up. You are basically saying to me that presence detectors for mercs serve as better recon/search tools than the camnet. That argument is heavily flawed.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 14, 2008, 12:38:00 AM
There's nothing that a "diversion cam" can do that can't be done already.
what gadget creates realistic distraction sounds that can draw a merc to a point? I'm not talking about just spamming noise, I'm talking about a realistic sound that can be triggered remotely, at any time. Snares don't even come close to doing that.
The whole network camera thing won't be useful in practice, but the distraction aspect could be. In fact, I would probably have the same 1 camera limit as stickies for the diversion cam, because the sound producing aspects would be very potent in game.
As far as the recon cam, It's unfeasable for spies to place recon cams each life and have them mean much. Most of the time, the places you want to see are the ones in front of you, not the places you've already been. And by definition because you have to shoot the cam, you can only see places you've already been. And really, what good does that do? I can see if the merc is coming behind me? About the onyl use I can think for a recon cam is if it were completely silent and you could fire into a room real quick to see which side of the room the poison/spytraps were on, so you know where to shoot your chaff. And if people want something for that, I say just make an OCP cam. Basically a perfectly silent (but slower) way of disabling mines around corners. Dont' know if it'd be useful but it's an idea.
As far as recon cams: why not just give spies a way to tap into camnet? That'd serve the function everyone seems to want. It's slower than HBS and spybullets, but can possibly scan the whole map. Don't know if it's useful or not in play, but it should be easy enough to code and try out.
Good point. But what way would there be to hack into a camnet without making it take too much time for spies? Lol imagine a spy using a knocked out merc to look into his camnet :D
Diversion cams, eh, why not just give snares a little boost or change? Like being able to choose if you want to remotely trigger realistic sounds or allow it to keep scrambling the merc's reticule?
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 14, 2008, 10:06:54 PM
Good point. But what way would there be to hack into a camnet without making it take too much time for spies? Lol imagine a spy using a knocked out merc to look into his camnet :D
It's the merc camnet tool, only a spy uses it.
Quote
Diversion cams, eh, why not just give snares a little boost or change? Like being able to choose if you want to remotely trigger realistic sounds or allow it to keep scrambling the merc's reticule?
Possibly but I think snares are already a potent gadget, I'm not if I want to boost them.
papa, bullets work through walls and are really effective placed on mercs. stop thinking that a recon cam chain would work in practice.
the diversion noise ability isn't really that strong but does really suck for gameplay reasons. please stop advocating this bs gadget, we had this discussion a long time ago anyways.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 10:03:12 PM
why not just give spies a way to tap into camnet?
this sounds like an idea worth to look into deeper. however, there would be complications if the spy can move the cam, and if he couldn't the mercs would simply have all their cams look in a boring spot.
Quote from: Gawain on March 14, 2008, 10:58:53 PM
this sounds like an idea worth to look into deeper. however, there would be complications if the spy can move the cam, and if he couldn't the mercs would simply have all their cams look in a boring spot.
Merc always has precedence. So if the cam is uncontrolled. Spy can move it. If a merc starts using it, he instantly gains control.
Alternately it could just be that the first one to gain control of a camera keeps control until he relinquishes it, similar to two mercs with camnet. That way it might lead to an interesting tactic of having your partner neutralize the camnet and point it to the floor while you sneak past.
Quote from: Gawain on March 14, 2008, 10:58:53 PM
papa, bullets work through walls and are really effective placed on mercs. stop thinking that a recon cam chain would work in practice.
the diversion noise ability isn't really that strong but does really suck for gameplay reasons. please stop advocating this bs gadget, we had this discussion a long time ago anyways.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 10:03:12 PM
why not just give spies a way to tap into camnet?
this sounds like an idea worth to look into deeper. however, there would be complications if the spy can move the cam, and if he couldn't the mercs would simply have all their cams look in a boring spot.
Effective placed on mercs?! You really can't be serious. They are much much more effective when placed near doors and hallways. When you put one on a merc they hear it most of the time, then their partners disable them a little bit later. It's a waste unless it's the last merc or if you are playing on bigger maps like Factory where the other merc can't easily leave their post to disable the bullet. Even when they are effective, which is when they are placed near chokepoints of the map, they really aren't that effective for recon. More useful for hacking and setting up bullets everywhere so you know when to stop.
And tell me Gawain, how is a self placed camnet system for spy NOT going to work in practice? You can basically keep tabs on the whole map at any time. How could you call that a "bs" gadget?
papa, go back and read what me and other people contributed about this...
I have, and 90% of what was said was "it won't work in practice". Says who? I think that it atleast deserves some playtesting.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 12:27:58 AM
I have, and 90% of what was said was "it won't work in practice". Says who? I think that it atleast deserves some playtesting.
Oh, it would work...but it would be marginally useful at best. The spies already have two recon tools that do an excellent job of telling you where the mercs are at all times; there is absolutely no need or reason to spend time looking through the merc's camnet.
At all times? No. You can't detect a merc from across the map, or watch him for that matter, with any other gadget other than sticky cams. And with stickies you can only watch 1 room at a time. Sure hbs and spy bullets can do that, however, only at a limited range especially with bullets. Imagine it as the spy's very own camnet system that he can set up wherever he likes. Don't tell me that wouldn't be useful, or marginally useful.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 02:01:52 AM
At all times? No. You can't detect a merc from across the map, or watch him for that matter, with any other gadget other than sticky cams. And with stickies you can only watch 1 room at a time. Sure hbs and spy bullets can do that, however, only at a limited range especially with bullets. Imagine it as the spy's very own camnet system that he can set up wherever he likes. Don't tell me that wouldn't be useful, or marginally useful.
It would be marginally overpowering...for the spy. I CAN SEE EEEEEVERYTHING. Shoot a cam down a hallway. You don't need the extra boost to see the entire map.
If you think about it a little more, the spy is entering a territory foreign to them. This is the mercenary's place to guard. He should be allowed to see in every room with a camnet system. If I had 10 minutes to get a job done as a spy, My first thought wouldn't be, "how can I hack this mother fuckers camnet so I can see EEEEEVERYTHING. You have a task with a small amount of time. You are familiar with the grounds and territory because you have intel that has shown you what you're being put up against. As you learn the maps more, you won't even second guess where you're going. Its like doing your homework...or your job in this case.
at least the idea to hack into the mercs' camnet isn't as bad as the diversion camera idea lolz.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 02:01:52 AM
At all times? No. You can't detect a merc from across the map, or watch him for that matter, with any other gadget other than sticky cams. And with stickies you can only watch 1 room at a time. Sure hbs and spy bullets can do that, however, only at a limited range especially with bullets. Imagine it as the spy's very own camnet system that he can set up wherever he likes. Don't tell me that wouldn't be useful, or marginally useful.
If the merc is out of range of your radar, you should be hacking something. You can also place spy bullets at the entry points where the merc would come from, so I still fail to see how this ability would be useful at all.
You guys are telling me that you'd rather have 1 spy bullet in pirates than 1 net cam watching the entire room? You can watch it, see where the merc camps, see where he plants mines, you see all his little tricks and strategies forming. While a spy bullet you just see a blip on your radar and you can guess what exact point he is at, and it has a tiny range.
"shoot a cam down the hallway" - Keyword is "a". Wouldn't you like to shoot more than 1 sticky at once to have more eyes around the map and sacrifice its gas abilities?
And the problem with your argument spekkio, is that you only have a limited amount of spy bullets. There are usually a bunch of entry points into EVERY room. You'd waste your entire arsenal of spy bullets on 1 room. You can do all that usually with just 1 camera. That gives YOU the ability to watch 5 different key chokepoints or large areas at the same time. Imagine using this on a map like Aqua, Factory, Orphanage. It would be incredibly useful but fail at the aggro aspect of sticky cams. It has a weakness and useless part as well as a strength and useful part. Just like every gadget should/does.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
While a spy bullet you just see a blip on your radar and you can guess what exact point he is at
You know he's there and most of the times, that's enough.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
and it has a tiny range.
Use the HBS, then.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
"shoot a cam down the hallway" - Keyword is "a". Wouldn't you like to shoot more than 1 sticky at once to have more eyes around the map and sacrifice its gas abilities?
Not really, because as long as the merc is not near me, i'm fine with it and I'll just go hack.
QuoteThere are usually a bunch of entry points into EVERY room.
Aquarius: 2 spy bullets and you have all entries to pirates covered, sames goes for greek and maybe even tech room.
Orphanage: All the bomb objectives can be covered with 1 spy bullet (2 for cantine). The hacking objectives can also be covered with 1 spy bullet (2 in the washrooms).
Club House: 1 spy bullet for steam/jacuzzi, 1 for the gardens and another to tea/lunch.
Factory:main hall, machine room and digger, 2 for each and you're set (before someone screams at me, I know you can't have 6 spy bullets).
Do I really have to go on with the other maps?
No matter how "well" you think you have every room covered it still takes more than 1 to do so, and even then you can't watch the room. There are probably some things that you'd want to know that the merc is doing and what he is placing. You simply can't do that at all with bullets.
I could quickly get almost half of the map covered with only 2 net cams on Aqua and on Factory. Go to blue room, set up a cam near the ceiling on one of the pillars. Then look into pirates and fire 1 over the deck on the side with the objective. Just like that I have a lot of the map covered and I can watch and see where and when the mercs go and where they place things. From there I can plan my entry point based on the things I see on the sticky and where the merc is.
After reading your post, it sounds to me that you want a gadget that makes your life 10 times easier. =p
Quote from: Gui Brazil on March 15, 2008, 06:25:49 PM
After reading your post, it sounds to me that you want a gadget that makes your life 10 times easier. =p
He does, which is why I had stated that it would be overpowering. I don't want t know where the merc is all the time exactly. Adds more of a thrill you know? I do not think the spy needs his own camnet system. In fact, I dub this idea at the bottom of the ideas list that I've read.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
"shoot a cam down the hallway" - Keyword is "a". Wouldn't you like to shoot more than 1 sticky at once to have more eyes around the map and sacrifice its gas abilities?
Honestly no.
I just can't imagine how useful these would be. Any reasonably competent merc is going to shoot them out if they're in his sight. If I have to shoot it that practically means I've got to be in the room. So what it does for me is sweep a room that I'm about to enter. You know what else does that and faster? Heartbeat.
Unless you've got cameras that are preplaced like a camnet, it's just not worth a spy placing his own cams, not for recon anyway.
The sound-making diversion camera has merit. The recon camera is completely useless.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 15, 2008, 06:38:27 PM
Quote from: Gui Brazil on March 15, 2008, 06:25:49 PM
After reading your post, it sounds to me that you want a gadget that makes your life 10 times easier. =p
He does, which is why I had stated that it would be overpowering. I don't want t know where the merc is all the time exactly. Adds more of a thrill you know? I do not think the spy needs his own camnet system. In fact, I dub this idea at the bottom of the ideas list that I've read.
Every gadget in the game makes your life easier. If you want a gadget in the game that doesn't, what's the point? I can see where you guys are coming from. Maybe I see how it would be useful in some scenarios and maps, but I'm ignoring most confined maps. I'm imagining using them at their highest potential all the time, which I know now isn't possible. Whatever, no biggie. The diversion cam would be lame, unless of course it wasn't much of a cam, but a sound projector where you could point to a spot to make a sound come from. But that's pretty complicated and probably wouldn't work out very well as a gadget in the long run.