ph. nades similar to the ones in pt have been in discussion as a replacement for flares for a long time. now vega suggested to implement spekkio's idea of a slow down tool into ph. nades. this sounds like the current best suggestion for a new gadget, so i consider it worth it's own thread.
my current idea of perfect ph. nades is this:
-triggered by timer (=frag timer), but instant explosion when hitting the spy
-not distinguishable from frag nades until explosion
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud (radius slightely bigger than smoke nade radius) that stays for about 18s
-speed of spy running through dust reduced to merc's running speed and diving or jumping is also impossible (slow-down effect only working while being in the dust)
-spy has the unremovable dark-green dust on him that glows bright on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 ph footsteps (allows the use of ph nades as a weaker form of spy traps)
-ph dust also slows down mercs (not using mask) and let them leave footsteps
i'll update this post regularily with any well-founded feedback.
The cloud stays too long, lower it to 8s and your golden. I'm still iffy on the slowing aspect. While it may make it useful, it would make it incredibly annoying for spies. Especially if it stays for over 10 seconds and completely blocks a doorway or chokepoint.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 15, 2008, 05:52:36 PM
The cloud stays too long, lower it to 8s and your golden. I'm still iffy on the slowing aspect. While it may make it useful, it would make it incredibly annoying for spies. Especially if it stays for over 10 seconds and completely blocks a doorway or chokepoint.
I agree, that would p*iss me off too.
Really though, it doesn't need to show on emf. I already posted why in the other thread. Its more than the nade calls for.
Edit (ripped from other thread):
QuoteThe phos nade already leaves glowing shit. That is the sense of exposure. Its not an electrically stimulated material. If hes glowing already....y do u need him to light up in emf? This doesn't even pertain to emf ghosting. Phos nade does not equal spy bullet. Its a green substance that sticks to the spy, glows, and leaves a trail. NOW it will be able to slow the spy down or possibly cause damage due to the exposure of the gas portion of the nade once its detonated. There isn't a need for it to show on emf. It will show well enough in regular vision. Mercs don't need the advantage of being able to see the spy through a ceiling because he got slimed.
Quote from: Gawain on March 15, 2008, 01:09:42 PM
-ph dust also slows down mercs (not using mask) and let them leave footsteps
Dont' do that. That defeats the whole purpose of slowing down the spy.
No, because it's only if he's not using mask. Spies don't have masks so they have no way to counter it. Mercs would just have to be smart about where/when they use it and how much fuel they have left in their gas mask. Making a spy go towards the merc would be another prime use of it. Block 1 exit point and cover the other one. The merc wouldn't even have to go through the dust. But this is where the REAL problem arises.
The problem really is how overpowering it would be to completely take away the spies only advantage over the merc instantly AND have all those other side effects. Omg I would hate that so much as a spy. The real reason you can escape from mercs is your speed and agility, your ss is just an added bonus. Basically you can gain 5-10 feet from the merc by stunning him, but then he is on your ass and stays on your ass. You wouldn't be able to escape.
EMF lighting up spies is just overkill. I do think that the effects should be proportional to how close the spy is to the center of the cloud and how long he stays in it. For example if the spy just goes around it and touches the edges of the cloud he would only leave a few footprints and be slowed down by only 5-10%. If the spy stays in the center of the cloud for a given amount of time he would be slowed down by much more and leave more footprints. That way the spy could just counter it by rolling through it or avoing the cloud and the mercs would have to use them wisely.
I'm confused, are we saying the spy is still slow after leaving the phophors gased area? That is harsh. Why not make it big enough that he can't completely dive through it, much like a smoke grenade for Mercs. They can charge through half but then get caught.
Once a spy is out of the smoke, he shouldn't be slowed after wards. the spy then can continue running away, but he shows up on EMF. The merc was trying to slow the spy down and didn't at least now he shows up on EMF. If the merc had used a grenade the spy would be dead or he missed and completely alive. The slownade, gives the spy a chance to live, and the merc the chance to kill.
Slownade properties:
-triggerd when hitting a spy (much like a smokenade. The merc can toss it for a fleeing spy, or if shot directly at him slow him instantly.)
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
-speed of spy running through dust is reduced to merc's running speed and diving or jumping is also impossible AS LONG AS HE'S WITHIN THE RADIUS OF THE CLOUD.
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps
edit: The spy is penalized greatly for being within the cloud but has the chance to escape with his life. A grenade would have killed him. He should be so lucky, to only have to escape with being on EMF for a bit. Instead of an all or nothing gadget like the grenade. There's the choice of balance.
Spy:
Lives and hides for a bit.
Merc:
slows the spy down, and can track the hiding spy.
PS. I don't know about you guys, but I can't keep up to fleeing spies. Maybe I have a different version.
Quote from: Gawain on March 15, 2008, 01:09:42 PM
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
[...]
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps
that could be used to ambush spies more easly. think of the possibilities: you (merc) shoot a ph nade to the ground creating a smoke wall, which if placed in the right place, would create a situation where the spy had few choices left, being those:
-running through the wall and break the line of sight, leaving his footprints behind, making it easier for the merc to find him;
-wait until the smoke wall wears out, which is not the best idea, since he becomes a "sitting duck"...
-find another escape route which doesn't imply any of the strategies mentioned above. this is the safest strategy.... *bling!* :P
daybreak: the slow down effect should only work while in the dust, of course. i'll clarify it in the head post.
papa, here's a lesson suggestion just for you: grab a friend and go in a long open area like main hall or some corridor. now taze the merc and dive-run while your friend tries to shoot. the moment you hear the first shot you freeze. you gonna be surprised how far you can run in this time. even if he drops a ph nade in your escape route before you get away, it will only slow down you marginally in an area of like 8m or whatever twice the radius is.
slowing down the spy to the speed of the merc can also hardly be called "blocking".
Quote from: Wanted_David on March 15, 2008, 08:10:23 PM
Quote from: Gawain on March 15, 2008, 01:09:42 PM
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
[...]
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps
that could be used to ambush spies more easly. think of the possibilities: you (merc) shoot a ph nade to the ground creating a smoke wall, which if placed in the right place, would create a situation where the spy had few choices left, being those:
-running through the wall and break the line of sight, leaving his footprints behind, making it easier for the merc to find him;
-wait until the smoke wall wears out, which is not the best idea, since he becomes a "sitting duck"...
-find another escape route which doesn't imply any of the strategies mentioned above. this is the safest strategy.... *bling!* :P
That's all part of strategy on the mercs part. That shows a good example of how to use this new weapon. If we created a heartbeat sensor for spies, it'd seem way over powered. Used correctly it's a great tool. Used poorly well, it takes up a slot and is practically useless.
It's been discussed many times that a new gadget needs to be created to change possible loadouts from the standard, grenade, mine load out. I think it's this new slownade. After some fine tunning this can be an excellent gadget.
Quote from: Gawain on March 15, 2008, 08:18:26 PM
daybreak: the slow down effect should only work while in the dust, of course. i'll clarify it in the head post.
papa, here's a lesson suggestion just for you: grab a friend and go in a long open area like main hall or some corridor. now taze the merc and dive-run while your friend tries to shoot. the moment you hear the first shot you freeze. you gonna be surprised how far you can run in this time. even if he drops a ph nade in your escape route before you get away, it will only slow down you marginally in an area of like 8m or whatever twice the radius is.
slowing down the spy to the speed of the merc can also hardly be called "blocking".
I was thinking that the slow down effect would happen even after you leave the dust cloud. That wouldn't be good.
I forget how long the gas cloud lasts in PT, but Ph. nades in PS should be along those lines. I think it was 8 or 12 sec, can't remember though.
If it's going to have a slow effect, ph nades should burst on contact with spies if it's a direct hit or have a timer if it doesn't like spy smoke grenades. This is not like frag grenades because an insta-hit won't kill you. Spies should be able to roll and jump, it would just be at the merc's run speed instead of full out getaway speed. Hell, if you have 4 variable speeds in PS, then the grenade can slow by 1 notch.
Ph. nades should retain the EMF glowing. Footsteps need to be seen in EMF. You could barely notice a spy hit with Ph. nades in PT in normal vision, so it should be kept that way.
Basically, frags would be for outright killing but Ph. nades would be for tracking and chasing.
QuoteThis is not like frag grenades because an insta-hit won't kill you.
Umm, an insta hit will get you killed though. If you can't run faster than mercs you can't get away very easily, even with a ss and nades. You can't gain ground between you and the merc other than the point of which you shock/nade him. The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies. Overpowered.
The rest I agree on Spekkio.
So... new gadget properties
Slownade
-standard time to explosion (allow for a bank shot or lob)
-instantly triggerd when hitting a spy (much like a smokenade. The merc can toss it for a fleeing spy, or if shot directly at him slow him instantly.)
-creating a huge ph. dust cloud that stays for about 12s
-speed of spy running through dust is reduced to merc's running speed. Diving or jumping is also at merc spedd when the spy is within the phs. cloud radius
-spy has the unremovable dust on him that glows green in the dark and on emf, it falls off slowly so that it's fully gone after about 35s (similar to that in PT)
-the dust of the ph nade stays on the floor and a spy that walked through the dust or over this ground leaves 25 glowing footsteps (similar to that in PT)
I really don't understand what papa skull is saying in his last post. An instant hit by a grenade does not equal death unles you aren't moving. That's just 'cause you can't get up and run in time. Your last statement is the only one i understand
"The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies. Overpowered"
That's what a phosphorous nade is for a fleeing spy. You do it so atleast when he's getting away, you might be able to track him. Other wise, you should have tossed a well timed grenade and killed the bastard when you had the chance. It's not over powered, in my eyes, it seems pretty balanced.
Well it would almost mean a death every time. It's what I'm guessing. Why do spies currently get away? Because they are faster, more agile, and have ss as an added bonus. With an instant phophorous nade you take away their biggest advantage and tool they have for escaping instantly. It's gone. How the hell are they supposed to gain ground between themselves and the merc if they move at the same speed? It would be an easy pursuit for the mercs and that means an easy kill. Atleast if the thing is on a timer they have a chance to avoid it and counter it.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 09:31:21 PM
Ph. nades should retain the EMF glowing. Footsteps need to be seen in EMF. You could barely notice a spy hit with Ph. nades in PT in normal vision, so it should be kept that way.
I didn't really play PT too much. I didn't know it would show in EMF. It seems both overpowering and unnecessary. Phosphorus omits a glow because it is exposed to oxygen. The only time electricity is involved is through allotropy (a different "version", if you will, of phosphorus) in which its the process of creating the glow. In this case, the nades detonation would cause the glow through an electric "furnace." The glow isn't electric itself, nor is the phosphorus. It is an excellent conductor of electricity, but not electrically based. It should not glow in EMF. Colors will look better now that graphics are better. Up the "potency" of the green glow in normal vision. Cut the glow in EMF.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 16, 2008, 12:32:05 AM
Umm, an insta hit will get you killed though. If you can't run faster than mercs you can't get away very easily, even with a ss and nades. You can't gain ground between you and the merc other than the point of which you shock/nade him. The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies. Overpowered.
If you can reliably hit a dodging spy dead on with a grenade, might as well use your twitch skills for snap headshots with the rifle.
i'm unsure about the emf or normal vision glowing thing. regarding balance reasons, the difference is quite small, but if the merc has to be in emf to track the spy he has some weak points, eg another spy sneaking by or chaff kicking him out of emf etc.
directly hitting the spy takes some serious aiming skills and isnt op as the spy has only to get through half of the diameter of the cloud. if he's running in away in front of you you should also be careful as a merc because you don't wanna run through the ph dust yourself.
Papa, you are still thinking that the merc speed is after you leave the cloud once you're out you have your spy speed again. Now you show up in emf and have glowing foot traces.
Phospho in PT was quite a useless item. It had all the same properties except the slowing down. And really that just makes the gadget powerful enough to actually be useful.
Quote from: Lurch on March 16, 2008, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 16, 2008, 12:32:05 AM
Umm, an insta hit will get you killed though. If you can't run faster than mercs you can't get away very easily, even with a ss and nades. You can't gain ground between you and the merc other than the point of which you shock/nade him. The phosphorous nades SHOULD be on a timer because otherwise you instantly take away the spies biggest advantage, and that's lame and annoying for spies. Overpowered.
If you can reliably hit a dodging spy dead on with a grenade, might as well use your twitch skills for snap headshots with the rifle.
Um, the collision model for a grenade is much larger than that of a bullet, so it's easier to score a hit. Also, you don't need to hit the spy in the head for it to work. Finally, you can miss and have it still explode in the direction the spy is running, so you have a chance to catch him in it.
Quote from: Gawain on March 16, 2008, 10:08:42 AM
i'm unsure about the emf or normal vision glowing thing. regarding balance reasons, the difference is quite small, but if the merc has to be in emf to track the spy he has some weak points, eg another spy sneaking by or chaff kicking him out of emf etc.
directly hitting the spy takes some serious aiming skills and isnt op as the spy has only to get through half of the diameter of the cloud. if he's running in away in front of you you should also be careful as a merc because you don't wanna run through the ph dust yourself.
It doesn't have to directly hit the spy. It could hit anywhere in the range of the nade. Spekkio explained that in the post above this one.
QuotePapa, you are still thinking that the merc speed is after you leave the cloud once you're out you have your spy speed again. Now you show up in emf and have glowing foot traces.
I get that now. I was defending an earlier point. Never mind it. It almost freezes the spy if you get the insta nade going. It still would be an amazing gadget against aggro and mercs are getting a better tazer with longer range, sounds to me like aggro players will still take a beating. That doesn't sound that overpowered, but making them light op on EMF? No. You could just make the phosphorous nade dust glow on the spy for a given amount of seconds. Footprints are nice, no problem there.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 06:21:09 AM
It could hit anywhere in the range of the nade. Spekkio explained that in the post above this one.
once again, you fail at reading comprehension. it doesn't work as an insta in the whole nade radius, it's just easier to pull of than headshots because the ph nades is bigger than a bullet and it's sufficient to hit the spy anywhere on the body.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 06:21:09 AM
It almost freezes the spy if you get the insta nade going.
reducing the running speed to merc running speed can hardly be called "freezing", it's like 25%.
Wtf? YES IT WOULD work as an insta in the whole nade radius, you make no sense. If the phospho nade is an insta nade, it would always be an insta nade. The radius of the effective range of a phospho nade is obviously MUCH bigger than a bullets. Say the range of the nade is 10 feet. The merc can throw the nade anywhere in that 20 feet diameter of the spy and insta nade him. It takes much more skill to snap shot a headshot with a bullet to a spy than insta nade him. You don't prove me wrong at all Gawain, it has nothing to do with my point.
I said freezing as an exaggeration. You just shoot a bunch of these things, flip on your gas mask, and the spy can't really get away from you because you go the same speed. A 25% decrease is a big difference but I don't actually mean it freezes the spy. I should have worded that a little better. If you are going to make the phosphorous nade slow down the spy , and have it at an instant setting, then give it a smaller effective radius. If you could just run around and throw these things everywhere without the nade being on a delay the spies have no way of countering them, and that's bad, mmkay?
rofl papa you don't get it: the nade only explodes instantly hitting the spy, otherwise theres the same timer that frag nades have.
Lol ok. I was like, what the hell are you talking about?! :D
The insta nade thing hitting the spy is an interesting concept. I can count on my fingers the amount of times I actually hit a spy with a nade, but then again, I wasn't trying to. I always try to launch the nade where the spy is going or withing a 2 meter radius of a stationary spy.
On that note, i'd like to add that my favorite grenade is when i'm sitting in a vent ready to go. But then i hear the clink of a grenade hitting the top of the vent the landing on my lap or on my shoulder.
The "awww shit" feeling never fades, and always makes me laugh.
Carry on.
in pt days, half of the power (and fun) with ph nades was the fact that they often were mistaken for frags. so my question is, should it be distinguishable from frags (like flying with a green smoke trail and a fizzy noise or other suggestion?) or not. discuss.
I was also thinking about that, and I came up with a few ideas. You could make 1 of the orange lights on the current nade a greenish color, this way at first glance it looks like a frag. You could make the dust leak from one end like you said. There are so many ways you could do this. I just think that the only way we can hit the nail on the head is with testing, as is the case with a lot of things lately.
I don't think they should be identified. It's a feature that would only benefit a spy. The element of surprise for a merc is a good thing. It's basically a bluff nade, if you are out of real grenades it could help. But the spy takes that chance a getting hit. And the merc takes that chance that the spy will take the bait when he's might have one grenade saved. It becomes a mind game and adds depth to the gameplay.
I am against identifying the slownade from a grenade.
Again, this can only really be decided through testing. If the main use of the nade is a bluff nade, why not just have an actual bluff nade gadget? And that's dumb. Phosphorous nades need their own unique use and maybe have somewhat of a bluffing use.
"Phosphorous nades need their own unique use and maybe have somewhat of a bluffing use."
And by not identifying it as a slonade gives it that somewhat of a bluffing use. Not identifying it makes the game more interesting.
I don't like the bluffing use at all. It's a sad day when a gadget's best use is masquerading as a more useful gadget.
As I said before, bluffing shouldn't be its main use.
the bluffing part is fun and doesn't make that much of a difference because you better run away both from frags and ph nades in most situations. but on the other hand, if the dust stays on the ground for the whole game and with the added slow-down effect, this extra "feature" isn't needed at all.
Ya it could be mistaken for a real frag, but whats next? Not like the spy will stay around to find out. So much for bluffing and it never really worked like that in pt. I like how slowing down effect sounds, but I don't think it will make them an item worth taking. All in all I think ph nades are just fundamentally flawed and you can't fix them, but thats just me.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2008, 03:40:07 PM
Um, the collision model for a grenade is much larger than that of a bullet, so it's easier to score a hit. Also, you don't need to hit the spy in the head for it to work. Finally, you can miss and have it still explode in the direction the spy is running, so you have a chance to catch him in it.
Well, I agree with you that it is definately easier to hit a spy with a nade up close instead of scoring a headshot, but the further you go, the more you'll have to "lead" the "relatively slow" nade (compared to a bullet) to actually hit the spy, as well as adjust the trajectory itself by lifting the crosshair (although that's the easy part to do on the spot). Keep in mind that spies would most likely anticipate mercs trying to slownade their ass and act accordingly if this gadget would be implemented.
Quote from: kronf on March 20, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
I like how slowing down effect sounds, but I don't think it will make them an item worth taking. All in all I think ph nades are just fundamentally flawed and you can't fix them, but thats just me.
i think ph nades need 2 main boosts so that they can compete with other gadgets:
-slow down effect (good vs aggro, especially escaping)
-dust stays on the ground for the whole game so that spies walking through it will leave footsteps (good vs stealth)
I like Rambo's ideas, but i hope the merc does not become too powerful...
Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 05:35:39 PM
Quote from: kronf on March 20, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
I like how slowing down effect sounds, but I don't think it will make them an item worth taking. All in all I think ph nades are just fundamentally flawed and you can't fix them, but thats just me.
i think ph nades need 2 main boosts so that they can compete with other gadgets:
-slow down effect (good vs aggro, especially escaping)
-dust stays on the ground for the whole game so that spies walking through it will leave footsteps (good vs stealth)
i tihnk the whole game is too much, but maybe a minute or two isnt. We might have to knock it down to 30 sec after the 12sec (or w/e) gas time.
the dust on the spy shouldn't stay longer than 35s, but the dust on the floor can stay for like 2 minutes.
Bluffing isn't its main use. Slowing the spy down and identifying him as he flees is the main use of the phs. nade. Not identifying it just gives it that ability. You can't differenciate a smokenade from a chaff. So, why make the identification for slonade and grenade. There isn't a reason other than to give the spy a slight advantage, of should I run or not. Testing isn't required.
As for the dust on the floor. Who really cares, that's like relying on the snow in Polarbase to track a spy. It doesn't matter.
Quote from: Daybreak on March 20, 2008, 08:39:33 PM
As for the dust on the floor. Who really cares, that's like relying on the snow in Polarbase to track a spy. It doesn't matter.
it does. just because people don't use tracing via footsteps now in the few places/maps it's possible doesn't mean that it's not possible. just shoot a ph nade in a bottleneck like the way from spawn to cantine on orph etc and you see if a spy has passed it.
That's not a bad point.
Quote from: Rambo on March 20, 2008, 08:46:42 PM
it does. just because people don't use tracing via footsteps now in the few places/maps it's possible doesn't mean that it's not possible. just shoot a ph nade in a bottleneck like the way from spawn to cantine on orph etc and you see if a spy has passed it.
I don't like the idea of making the cloud a static detection thing that lasts for a long time. Personally I prefer turning phosphurs more into a slowdown, route blocking gadget.
I'd say maybe something like:
-Phosphurs fire like an RPG, not an arcing grenade and detonate instantly upon striking any surface.
-Spies (but not mercs) in the phosphur cloud are slowed down. (the amount of the slowdown has to be figured out via playtest)
-Spies affected glow on EMF for a short time.
-Phosphur clouds last maybe 20 seconds. The EMF glow lasts for 1 minute.
-(optional) spies leave glowing footprints
-(optional) spies in a phosphur cloud can't use gadgets or the SS. Phosphur acts as merc chaff.
They should be launch exactly like frags but detonate instantly. If they go straight instead of going in an arc pattern, they'd be really easy to tell apart from frags. And that would take away the "bluff" use a lot of people would like to have.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 20, 2008, 10:59:20 PM
They should be launch exactly like frags but detonate instantly. If they go straight instead of going in an arc pattern, they'd be really easy to tell apart from frags. And that would take away the "bluff" use a lot of people would like to have.
Honestly I could care less about the bluff use. I want to make phosphurs a useful gadget, and that means launching them fast. Firing instantly like a bullet instead of requiring the charge up time makes them useful to cut off a spy's retreat quickly and efficiently.
maybe if they fire like frags that are fully charged or something by default. I just don't think phosphurs should have the usual grenade charge up thing, some sometimes you may just want to fire them across a room fast.
Also, with slowing phosphurs I just thought of another use. You could use them as an aggro deterrant by firing at the ground. See a couple aggro spies rush you. drop a phosphur at the floor. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing for balance though.
Uh, just tap the frag and it fires at maximum strength? It's been like that forever. Only SCDA was different.
And to lob a nade, hold it.
lol
Yeah I don't understand your post invisible because you can fire a nade at full charge just by tapping the nade button. But yeah, I want it to have its own unique properties. Doubling it as a nade is kind of dumb.
in order to stop going-for necks aggro, you can make use of the tazer, shotgun, walls/corners, etc. but definitely not of ph.nades. the current idea doesn't allow that and if you have a different idea of ph nades that allows this, it frankly sucks.
Quote from: Rambo on March 21, 2008, 01:07:30 AM
the current idea doesn't allow that and if you have a different idea of ph nades that allows this, it frankly sucks.
ehh .. what?! You dismiss every different idea without even knowing it?
Agreed. Aggro depends on speed. Cut down the speed, and aggro lost one of its major stingers.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm really confused about what the hell is going on. This new discussion was about if the slonade (the new phosphorous nade) should be identified so a spy could differentiate between it and a grenade.
So far as I understand I am the only one that thinks it should not be identified. I gave a reasoning of more depth and sense of game strategy vs spies. Identifying it only helps spys.
Because I'm slow, could someone say why identifying a slonade would be needed when no other grenade type is identified through the air.
Quote from: Rambo on March 21, 2008, 01:07:30 AM
in order to stop going-for necks aggro, you can make use of the tazer, shotgun, walls/corners, etc. but definitely not of ph.nades. the current idea doesn't allow that and if you have a different idea of ph nades that allows this, it frankly sucks.
How not of phosphorous nades? Last time I checked p. nades slow down the spy, and that is a big handicap to aggro especially considering the size of the dust cloud. Aggro players use their only real advantage: Speed. You take that away what do they have? With the slownade and a buffed tazer, aggro is going to take a hit - a big hit.
Phosphorous nades aren't going to be useful against stealthy careful spies, just thought I'd throw that out there.
Quote from: Daybreak on March 21, 2008, 03:28:32 AM
So far as I understand I am the only one that thinks it should not be identified. I gave a reasoning of more depth and sense of game strategy vs spies. Identifying it only helps spys.
i'm of the same opinion, but i wanted to hear others, too.
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 21, 2008, 01:24:32 AM
ehh .. what?! You dismiss every different idea without even knowing it?
the current idea of ph nades is that they also slow down a merc and mark him with the emf shit, so you don't wanna throw it directly in front of your feet. if you want them different, explain it first before you write bullshit.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 21, 2008, 04:28:06 AM
Phosphorous nades aren't going to be useful against stealthy careful spies, just thought I'd throw that out there.
yes they are, particularily with the dust staying on the ground for a while.
besides, it's wrong that playing 100% stealth is possible. once you hack and objective, you give away your position and this is where the ph. nades has it's main use: slow down and mark fleeing spies.
No stealthy spy is going to get himself into a situation like that. A cautious stealth spy will have his partner watch all entrances and put spy bullets all around them. Of course, the spy can't always get away before mercs get in range. That is the only time where phosphorous nades are going to beat frags in the category of stopping stealthy spies. Anything else the frag can do, if not better.
Now against aggro spies is really where p. nades are going to be of good use. Instant slow nades against attackers are going to be 1 hell of a gadget eh? Because frags are on a timer, you can't really scare off aggro spies because it's pretty easy to dodge them. Not the case with p. nades. With a big effective radius you'll only need a few nades to totally handicap an aggro spy. Throw in a buffed tazer and you have a recipe for a dead aggro spy. That leads me to think that we'll need a lot of testing and a possible buff to aggro spies, can't believe I'm saying that. :D Plus it seems like a lot of people want spy nades to be loaded after every shot, another big nerf for aggro's. I know it's not a final decision but it looks likely.
any new thoughts about ph nades in the meantime?
(i think this topic is one of the most important that we can discuss before the beta and this discussion stopped with no real results. for any1 new on this thread: i try to sum up ph nade properties in the first thread and change them whenever someone comes up with a good point)
I think a remote control bomb setting off a Phosophone gas cloud would be a better idea. Saves all this frag identifcation crap, plus it's a cool idea too :P. Frags, you can just fire them anywhere, but you've always got to have a reason to set off your remote control bomb.
Imagine being a spy, moving slow to a door, or even running, then a merc sets off the bomb, you hear a massive sound and a gas bomb goes off infront of you. You'll think "SHIT HE KNOWS IM THERE!" and automatically your going to panic, and this could change your game plan. I feel this would set a new dimension to the game and could be very interesting. I wouldn't make it a remote control bomb that actually kills though, I feel that would be unbalancing and when it's a gas cloud bomb instead, makes things a little more interesting.
agreed, remote control exploding bombs would suck, but remote gas bombs would be sweet.
reason why remote exploding bombs would suck, u start hacking an objective and BOOM now your dead and the merc is half way across the map when this happens.
why in the world would you want to remotely trigger a ph nade placed before somewhere? oO
if you can see the spy, shoot him (maybe shoot a ph nade first); if you see him with camnet or hes trapped, you already know where he is and the slightely slower movement won't allow you to kill him. it would also be lame to be able to place ph bombs next to objectives.
besides, the only remote-controlled active gadget is the sticky cam, and i think we should leave it that way.
It would work if a spy is fleeing from you. If he runs to where you have put a PH mine, he'll go slower AND leave footprints. Making it a lot easier to find him.
How about a gadget (deployable) that would inform the merc when doors/ stuff get used?
Wow, that's pretty off topic but a nice idea. Want to elaborate a little more how this would work? Spies don't use doors that much so I don't see how this would be of good use for mercs.
Quote from: Cyntrox on April 03, 2008, 10:42:16 PM
It would work if a spy is fleeing from you. If he runs to where you have put a PH mine, he'll go slower AND leave footprints. Making it a lot easier to find him.
the whole point of ph nades is that they don't work like traps or mines but can be placed "on the fly".
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 03, 2008, 11:47:11 PM
Wow, that's pretty off topic but a nice idea. Want to elaborate a little more how this would work? Spies don't use doors that much so I don't see how this would be of good use for mercs.
It'd be a thing like a presence detector, which could only be put next to useable things, and inform the merc's when something is used, and lock down the room. Just that. Imo a nice aggro prevention system (ofc it could be removed by the spy)..
Useable things? There aren't many useable things for the spy. At least, not any useable things that spies really want to use that much. Depends on what the thing is and what the map is like I guess. Interesting idea though... The problem is that it is basically a super presence detector. Eh, not much of a problem nvm. But a real problem is how visible it will be for the spy. It would be easy for a spy to see a PD right by a blue hacking terminal so therefore wouldn't even go to try it.
stupid idea. (no flaming intended, just my opinion)
Liqu1D's idea fucking owns :D. But I do think maybe you should be limited to have 2 placed at a time, and if you want to move it somewhere else, like with mines, remove it and then place it on another one, that would be fucking nice :P.
Well, it wouldn't detect a spy simply being there, just interacting with stuff.
Would be cool on maps with lots of hacks (deftech like).
how about just placing a presence detector close to the door? (does the same job even better)
plz don't hijack this thread with totally different ideas, i think ph nades are important enough to have their own dedicated thread.
PH Nades suck and shouldn't have anything dedicated to them atall in my opinion. But oh well, I wouldn't call helping the game we want to own hijacking anything.
i guess you think ph nades suck as a replacement for frags, and you're probably right about that. in some older thread there was the suggestion to have ph dust stop you from hacking laptops by doing some minor damage every 0.9s, but paired withi the slow-down effect this could prove op.
Quote from: Rambo on April 04, 2008, 02:11:44 PM
how about just placing a presence detector close to the door? (does the same job even better)
No. good timing = PD fails.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on April 04, 2008, 02:02:30 PM
Well, it wouldn't detect a spy simply being there, just interacting with stuff.
Would be cool on maps with lots of hacks (deftech like).
deftech has 3 hacks, in which you need to get 2/3. Do you mean more like Steel Squat?
if someone hacks something on steel the merc get's the exact information what has been hacked. and even if he wouldn't get that he could see it 1s later.
Hell no to adding damage to dust clouds. Nothing worse than making a gadget which can block off objectives for 12+ seconds.
This new PD sounds weird. It has too many uses and not just 1 or 2 clear uses like all other gadgets.
Quote from: Papa Skull on April 05, 2008, 01:12:37 AM
It has too many uses and not just 1 or 2 clear uses like all other gadgets.
Nope. Put it near something that interacts with the spies and when the spy intercats it gives the spies position away.
I'm thinking this would be utterly useless and too obvious, or in some places overpowered. Make a new thread, it needs some more discussion but this isn't the place. Let's see where this could go. I say you make this a secondary use to the PD. (yes a secondary to a secondary gadget) Instead of just detecting spies it would have a different function when put near useable devices. It wouldn't detect spies. It would do what you suggest. However, when not put near things like this it functions normally. That way it's a gadget we already have, but it gives a boost to a gadget that clearly needed one.
presence detectors need no boost except increasing the amount.
What do spies even use in this game? I only hack stuff, or hack the steam vents. Not really much else.
you usually get a hacking alert and it's not that hard to figure out what's being hacked.
Yeah that's what I don't about this gadget. They do need a boost, but I'm not sure this is the right way. There's a reason why laser traps are used way more often than PD's. It's because they are more efficient most of the time and have more use.
What if PD didn't tell the spy that it detected him?
Hmmm, that would require a bit of testing to see if that would really be a good change. Again, that's something that wouldn't require much work and would be easy to test. I'm sure us testers (I mean the community) has plenty of time to test right? First we'd need to discuss it a little more because we may think of something that could make this bad. It's late lol, I might not make that much sense.
Quote from: Kubanator on April 06, 2008, 05:26:52 AM
What if PD didn't tell the spy that it detected him?
that's kind of a good thought. spytraps tag the spy for over a minute and don't alert the spy in any way, so why should pd's do this?
another good boost possibility would be to remove the sound and just have it light up periodically in thermal vision.
plz don't forget that this thread is about ph nades...
Sometimes you want the spy to know he was detected to scare him away from that area. It depends though...
No. You want the spy to either die... or die.
Scaring spies away with PDs is pretty much nonsense, because this gives him way too much possibilities.