the pt rifle was just perfectly fine. 3 weapons are unneeded and hurt gameplay/balance. not everything they changed from pt to ct are good changes. here are my points for a 1-weapon sys:
-in ct, 95% of the good players use sniper, 5% uzi, and virtually none shotty => no real experience with a real 3 weapon system
-it's the main weapon of the merc just like the ss on the spy side. it's crucial to have a constant factor that you can coun't on as an opponent (and relate balance of maps/gadgets to as a dev), and giving mercs 3 different weapons is like giving the spies 3 different "guns" (hacking glove any1?)
-on small maps where shotty comes in handy, the spies already have a quite hard time staying alive (picking a gun that fits the map may sound clever, but it hurts the balance on maps that aren't a mixture of small and big rooms)
-uzi has no real weaknesses at all
-the rifle is the most balanced one as it has several weaknesses (you can't really spam, in normal mode it's no insta-kill, flash/chaff/headshot-ss disables/kicks you out of sniper mode, and while you are in sniper mode you are immobile, pretty blind and vulnerable for grabs/cams) but yet is quite versatile.
-svm isn't counterstrike
-gadget balance implications: shotty makes taking tazer pointless (=>free slot on small maps but still with full anti-aggro capabilities), flash/chaff is stronger against sniper than against other weapons (gadget guessing games before the game even starts suck), ...
the main counter-points from older discussions on this topic that i can remember are:
-a 3 weapon sys. adds variety to the gameplay
my counter: almost everything you add to the game adds variety. it's no valid point at all, as this would rectify adding a tomatoe-thrower or jetpack, too.
besides, variety is the least thing we have to worry about in ps: 8 instead of 4-6 usable gadgets, new maps, etc
-what if i suck at sniping?
guess what: it's something you can learn. it's also not that crucial to be pro at sniping to become a good rifle user (2 (or 3?) normal-mode headhots kill a spy with full hp)
discuss (and by that i mean try to counter my points before you come up with your personal preferances).
Countering your points, one at a time:
- You got the numbers wrong for sure. I use the Uzi quite a lot and I know quite some players that do. Of course, the rifle is by far the most used weapon, but the ratio is at least 80-20. Doesn't change the fact that this is no real argument for a 1 weapon system, because we got no experience with lots of things that will be in PS.
- Who says that 3 different spy-"guns" would be a bad thing? Also, it's not really that necessary to know what weapon your opponent has. If you're doing good, that will not bother you anyway.
- haha - sucks to be the spies huh?! .. what about taking different routes, staying away from the mercs. No good argument, because PS will have balanced weapons for a 3-weapon system.
- It does not have a scope, nor does it have the insta-kill ability of the shotgun. It could use some recoil, though.
- Every weapon has it's up- and downsides. Not only the rifle.
- No shit, sherlock? haha .. what an argument. I might aswell just counter that with: SvM isn't Pac-Man, either.
- How is this bad? Tazer can make Uzi/Rifle good in close-combat. If you bring the shotgun, you might want to bring backpack and grenades for long-range kills. So you can adjust your equipment to your gun.
Also, flash/chaff are only slightly stronger against the rifle, making the merc unable to snipe.
- Variety is good. Of course, not in the sense you mean it, but implemented in a logical way. New maps do not add variety. Actually, there will be less map-variety in PS than there was in CT and even in PT.
My point:
- A three weapon system is good, because players can choose their gun after their playstyle, just like everyone does with the gadgets anyway. You don't like sniping? Take the Uzi. You don't like aggro-spies? Take the shotgun. You like staying back? Take the rifle.
So I think it's better to have 3 guns that have their ups and downs, than have 1 weapon that can do everything half-assed.
um flash sucks against mercs with rifle, they just go back into snipe and see fine?
My snipe is terrible and spys just aggro me, so i use uzi n shotty lots and i think is more fun
the most defining up/downside of the guns is their range, and on small maps you don't need the range of the rifle, so every other choice is stronger. the uzi may lack special abilities, but it's working in every distance and no feature of it can be disabled.
if you need help against aggro, simply choose the tazer. besides, aiming will get way smoother + less lag = every gun gets a big boost.
and yes, my point about no experience based on ct is a good one because everybody thinks oh it'll work out fine because it works in ct, but it doesn't because it's effectively a 1.5 weapon sys., not a 3 weapon sys.
choosing the weapons according to your playstyle isn't good variety, as the gun is a way too basic gameplay mechanic for that. you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences. you shouldn't be able to adapt every single gameplay mechanic to your preferences, you have to adapt to some basic stuff and give the opponents something permanent for them to being able to make plans.
btw, i'm speaking about the PT RIFLE which has a slightely higher rof than the ct one (and was kinda more accurate). with the pt rifle there is no need at all for the uzi unless you think spam is good for the gameplay...
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 17, 2008, 02:04:57 PM
um flash sucks against mercs with rifle, they just go back into snipe and see fine?
My snipe is terrible and spys just aggro me, so i use uzi n shotty lots and i think is more fun
this is a bug that won't be tehre in ps.
You mentioned the uzi has no weaknesses, who's to say that will still apply in PS too...
I have to agree with BD, he put it better than I could.
I don't see why you guys are so eager to get three weapons in PS in the first place. Question isn't how, but why. I don't think anyone has presented a good argument to back that up. Oh, and I won't accept some random bullcrap like "playstyles" without an exact explanation. Hell, I can play in 5 different ways with rifle already.
Yeah - Pandora Tomorrow for the win ('cept for bugs).
1 gun that IS BALANCED - even chances for everyone.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
the most defining up/downside of the guns is their range
Along with the ROF and the MagCap, yes.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
the uzi may lack special abilities, but it's working in every distance and no feature of it can be disabled.
This is PS, as I said, the Uzi needs some recoil. Other than that, it's balanced.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
and yes, my point about no experience based on ct is a good one because everybody thinks oh it'll work out fine because it works in ct, but it doesn't because it's effectively a 1.5 weapon sys., not a 3 weapon sys.
That's just a statement, elaborate, please.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
choosing the weapons according to your playstyle isn't good variety
Why not?
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences.
No. You take grenades, mines and gasmask. For the fourth, you have the choice between backpack/camnet or spytraps. I think it'd be better if you could change your gun according to how you like to play, too.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
you shouldn't be able to adapt every single gameplay mechanic to your preferences, you have to adapt to some basic stuff and give the opponents something permanent for them to being able to make plans.
Changing your gun does not equal adapting every single gameplay mechanic to ones preferences.
The rest is just you personal measurement.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
btw, i'm speaking about the PT RIFLE which has a slightely higher rof than the ct one (and was kinda more accurate). with the pt rifle there is no need at all for the uzi unless you think spam is good for the gameplay...
Why not? If there's a three weapon system, the rifle won't be like the one in PT, and the Uzi will have a higher ROF, more recoil and a way bigger MagCap.
A 3 weapon system is garbage. You get 2 spray guns and a rifle that takes time to learn. I get really pissed when some1 takes me down with uzi or shotty because they didnt have any real aim but just unloaded. I understand the user friendly, but I'm worried more about the game play. Glad to see ANOTHER thread about this....not really though.
Quote from: BurningDeath on May 17, 2008, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences.
No. You take grenades, mines and gasmask. For the fourth, you have the choice between backpack/camnet or spytraps. I think it'd be better if you could change your gun according to how you like to play, too.
finally we're down to the real problem: too few real gadget choices for the merc.
this problem is based on bad gadget balance, not on too few main gun choices:
-the redundancy of flares (that get hopefully replaced by ph nades or get a huge boost)
-too short tazer range (that will get longer anyways)
-(too small amount of simultaniously placable spytraps to a certain amount)
-the necessity of a gas mask due to the pure possibility of getting spammed with cams/smoke (eg smoke/cams are too strong against a merc without mask)
you're right that in ct, the merc has too few different gadget choices available (especially compared to the spy side), but that will change with better gadget balance.
Actually, with mercs gadgets better balanced, I could imagine a 1-weapon system (with the a rifle similiar to the one in PT) being better. yeah.
i can also imagine that another one of the main reasons why people want uzi/shotty is that with some lag, it's almost impossible to stop host aggro. but with better netcode and a boosted tazer (and a slightely higher rifle rof is needed) this problem is gone, too.
So are you suggesting a shottyuzirifle?
Or something along the lines of DA's gun?... kind of a mix between uzi and rifle.
No. Think PT rifle - balanced perfectly (or so it seems).
I don't see a problem with people who want to increase their short range power.
You say the uzi doesn't have weaknesses, but that's because it's supposed to be the middle of the road, balanced weapon. So obviously, it seems to do a lot of things, but doesn't really have any specialties. It's more about what the uzi can't do. It can't get the insta-kill head shots a shotgun can, and it can't snipe. The very fact that most pros take the rifle should indicate that the uzi isn't inherently unbalanced because it has no weaknesses. If anything, I still think sniping is a bit too powerful. Most pros for whatever reason consider the uzi to be broken and overpowered, yet they use the rifle... hmmm.... I've always considered it more of an elitism thing where they say "I'm so awesome because I can snipe" and hate getting beaten by a weapon that's just plain easier to use, but lacks the rifle versatility.
The shotty is the weak weapon, and I'm not sure how to adequately upgrade that. The fact that you can't even reliably shoot a sticky cam or spybullet just sucks. Personally I'd make the shotty a bit more deadly. Make it just totally destroy aggro, so the shotty is a last resort for people that can't handle aggro. It may be a newbie gun of sorts, but it'll be kinda nice in that it's something you take to force aggro teams to go stealth. It's still not a great choice, but if you could completely shut down aggro, it may be worth it.
invisible, this thread isn't about how to balance 3 weapons, it's about how much a 1 weapons system pwns a 3 weapon sys :P
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 08:03:49 PM
invisible, this thread isn't about how to balance 3 weapons, it's about how much a 1 weapons system pwns a 3 weapon sys :P
Well I disagree about that. A one weapon system is equivalent to just playing CT and only being able to choose the rifle.
It seems more like you just want to prevent people from taking the uzi and shotty rather than creating a better weapon system.
Aggro spies benefit, since everyone now has a rifle and is weaker versus aggro. Hell I like the versatility to take the shotty sometimes if I'm dealing with a couple of aggro happy morons who don't know how to use stealth. I don't do it often, but sometimes I will.
Personally I'd rather make an uzi-like weapon the default gun and let people take tazer, extended clip or scope as gadgets to extend the power of their favorite gun. That's actually a 1 weapon system with some choice.
Do you mean a PT rifle with optional /scope/clip/tazer?
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on May 17, 2008, 08:32:39 PM
Do you mean a PT rifle with optional /scope/clip/tazer?
Pretty much. The idea is that you get a base weapon of some kind, that's good for a variety of basic applications and can upgrade it by spending gadget slots for specialty upgrades.
So if you want you could get more ammo or possibly increased RoF, sniping capability, or increased close quarters power (taser or shotty attachment). Of course every gadget you spend on your gun is a gadget that you're not spending on frags, mines, spytraps, gas mask or backpack.
Good idea. I like how you could give away 3/4 slots just to get the ultimate weapon that would suck.
invisible, the standard weapon has to be strong enough against aggro. try playing ct with rifle as host and with players from your own country, and you'll see that they won't stand a chance with cheap aggro tactics. i'm not afraid of getting pwned by shotty or uzi (i'm quite a stealth player actually). if with no lag and better mouse implementation rifle (+tazer) proves too weak to counter aggro (which i highly doubt), we just have to increase the rof. it worked perfectly fine in pt, and if you have problems countering noobs with the rifle, either you or the server sucks. your idea that with a one-weapon-sys aggro becomes too strong is really retarded, it's quite easy to adapt one weapon to this.
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 09:09:20 PM
invisible, the standard weapon has to be strong enough against aggro. try playing ct with rifle as host and with players from your own country, and you'll see that they won't stand a chance with cheap aggro tactics. i'm not afraid of getting pwned by shotty or uzi (i'm quite a stealth player actually). if with no lag and better mouse implementation rifle (+tazer) proves too weak to counter aggro (which i highly doubt), we just have to increase the rof. it worked perfectly fine in pt, and if you have problems countering noobs with the rifle, either you or the server sucks. your idea that with a one-weapon-sys aggro becomes too strong is really retarded, it's quite easy to adapt one weapon to this.
Well, if you want the rifle to be good versus aggro too, then basically you're creating a supergun. Remember that in PT, the main reason you didn't get creamed by aggro was that everybody took a tazer and the tazer was god. So using even the PT rifle as a comparison isn't particularly great.
I'd rather prefer some kind of innate countersystem to the game. The 3 weapon system is kinda okay right now. shotty beats aggro, uzi is the average weapon and sniper loses to aggro.
Now I actually do agree with you that the base weapon should be reasonably okay at holding back aggro, which is why I suggest something more similar to the uzi as a base weapon, not the rifle. But I think if you want to snipe you should have to pay some cost. Either be notably weaker against aggro (as in a 3 weapon system) or you have to pay a gadget slot for a scope.
Already mercs win the majority of matches in CT using the rifle. I honestly don't think the rifle is nearly as weak as you think it is. If it were so crappy against aggro you'd be using an uzi.
i love shotty on some maps and think its lame as shit when you get double teamed by host when using rifle and cannot hit anything at a 2 meter range.
Uzi suffers from a performance hit (hit animations) which I can understand....but please stop this nonsense about only skilled players use rifle and anything else is for noobs.
A lot of spies actually prey on the weaknesses of rifle thinking they can get away in time or just aggro out of the situation. Shotty forces people to change tactics and decent spies do a good job of that....but a lot of others just start calling me a noob for it.
I never had to tell people not to double team when we already ruled out DJ and tazer. Heck, we didn't even have berserk back then.
Quote from: goodkebab on May 18, 2008, 12:42:01 AM
i love shotty on some maps and think its lame as shit when you get double teamed by host when using rifle and cannot hit anything at a 2 meter range.
Uzi suffers from a performance hit (hit animations) which I can understand....but please stop this nonsense about only skilled players use rifle and anything else is for noobs.
A lot of spies actually prey on the weaknesses of rifle thinking they can get away in time or just aggro out of the situation. Shotty forces people to change tactics and decent spies do a good job of that....but a lot of others just start calling me a noob for it.
cant snipe well really, so uzi for me usually. Have seen GK playing and hes scary with shotty :D
We really need to continue this conversation in the other thread.
Quote from: goodkebab on May 18, 2008, 12:42:01 AM
A lot of spies actually prey on the weaknesses of rifle thinking they can get away in time or just aggro out of the situation. Shotty forces people to change tactics and decent spies do a good job of that....but a lot of others just start calling me a noob for it.
Yeah there are seriously some spies out there that do not change tactics. I remember running into one group of actually pretty good aggroers on river mall. Problem was they played an exclusively death match strategy. So we just waited underneath the main choke point with the cameras and blew em away with dual shotty.
And they didn't back off. They just kept trying the same strategy.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on May 17, 2008, 08:40:11 PM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on May 17, 2008, 08:32:39 PM
Do you mean a PT rifle with optional /scope/clip/tazer?
Pretty much. The idea is that you get a base weapon of some kind, that's good for a variety of basic applications and can upgrade it by spending gadget slots for specialty upgrades.
So if you want you could get more ammo or possibly increased RoF, sniping capability, or increased close quarters power (taser or shotty attachment). Of course every gadget you spend on your gun is a gadget that you're not spending on frags, mines, spytraps, gas mask or backpack.
I'm growing tired of posting the same thing in 2 threads. ::)
The problem with the customizable base weapon is that someone could have a shotgun attachment and you would have no clue whatsoever. Then you go up to them for a nice quick hello and say goodbye to your head. That last sentence sounds like something agent would say hahaha
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 18, 2008, 02:24:19 AM
We really need to continue this conversation in the other thread.
ähm this thread was first, has no totally pointless poll and a good opening post. so which thread should die? go figure...
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 18, 2008, 07:00:34 AM
The problem with the customizable base weapon is that someone could have a shotgun attachment and you would have no clue whatsoever.
The same is true of the tazer though right now.
Quote from: Rambo on May 18, 2008, 12:44:58 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 18, 2008, 02:24:19 AM
We really need to continue this conversation in the other thread.
ähm this thread was first, has no totally pointless poll and a good opening post. so which thread should die? go figure...
Polls give you something to go off of while you discuss it, and that is the opinion of the entire community and not just each individual post. The other one has a better topic (a dicussion thread, not a hate thread. Maybe I'm mistaken but the title is misleading). Who cares if it was first? What is this 1st Grade? "OOO ooo OOOO pick me pick me my hand was up first!"
Either way, this is pointless to discuss twice at the same time with the same ideas and the same opinions. I think that CT's weapon system was much better than PT's. It just needs to be implemented a bit differently. Simplifying things like weapons/gadgets was another reason DA was terrible.
there's quite a difference between taking away all gadgets and simplifying a small, but very basic part.
kindergarten?? it's kindergarten level to open up a new thread with the exact same topic...
Please stop flaming or flame-baiting everyone. It's getting on my nerves.
Quote from: BurningDeath on May 17, 2008, 01:35:12 PM
So I think it's better to have 3 guns that have their ups and downs, than have 1 weapon that can do everything half-assed.
Amen. 3 Weapons > 1. And i do vary my play style depending on what gun they have, even if i fail at doing so. example: 2 mercs got shotty on Mus, you're focus as spy will be on bombs cos there hard to shoot with shotty.
Uzi does have a recoil btw, its just people get used to the recoil they forget it has one:p. But the recoil should be bigger i agree, it should be fucking hard to spray a spy a long distance away. I think making the Uzi slightly more powerful with a lower ROF would do it some good too. Shotgun should be like the shotguns in CSS, they fucking own.
Quote from: Rambo on May 18, 2008, 10:23:05 PM
kindergarten?? it's kindergarten level to open up a new thread with the exact same topic...
i was only hoping to achieve a more decisive outcome from this thread, which has just become a confused set of posts (and perhaps should be locked/deleted or something?) ::)
i wish we would consolidate the two threads of 3 guns v 1 somehow.... its kind of annoying..
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 06:10:35 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on May 17, 2008, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
you have your gadget slots to adapt your eq loadout to your preferences.
No. You take grenades, mines and gasmask. For the fourth, you have the choice between backpack/camnet or spytraps. I think it'd be better if you could change your gun according to how you like to play, too.
finally we're down to the real problem: too few real gadget choices for the merc.
this problem is based on bad gadget balance, not on too few main gun choices:
-the redundancy of flares (that get hopefully replaced by ph nades or get a huge boost)
-too short tazer range (that will get longer anyways)
-(too small amount of simultaniously placable spytraps to a certain amount)
-the necessity of a gas mask due to the pure possibility of getting spammed with cams/smoke (eg smoke/cams are too strong against a merc without mask)
you're right that in ct, the merc has too few different gadget choices available (especially compared to the spy side), but that will change with better gadget balance.
- Why replaced if they both can be in?
- Ehm... yea?
- It might be too small, but I wouldnt like it a merc just kills himself to get another load of spytraps and place them among the other ones he placed, there should be a limit (like 4 or 5 as max).
- We'll probably make it so you have a chance to get out of the smoke, unless you're tazered, then you will choke and fall asleep. Though, I agree the cam is too overpowered, you basicly have to run around with gasmask activated to prevent you fall asleep cause of it.
And I would like other weapons just for the sake of variety (no other excuse). Sometimes it's fun to pump spies full of buckshot, other times it's fun to frag them, it depends on mood and how you want to play at times I suppose.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on May 19, 2008, 08:52:58 AM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 06:10:35 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on May 17, 2008, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
Though, I agree the cam is too overpowered, you basicly have to run around with gasmask activated to prevent you fall asleep cause of it.
No way is cam to overpowered, everyone has just gotten really good at using it. Even quick cams are counter-able, if you can mask fast enough. I never run around a map with my GM on, even against the very best players. People just gotta get used to using the numbers instead of the scroll, u can mask like thrice as fast like that.
@lennard: too much variety hurts the game and makes balancing it way too complicated. what you guys don't get is that the gadget slots are supposed to bring variety to the eq loadout, not the basic gun. imo you think too much in other fps terms where different guns are the only real variety you can get, but in ct you have 70 (!) different gadget loadouts just with 4 out of 8 possible gadgets (which you don't see in ct because of bad gadget balance that will be fixed in ps). besides, i always thought that this mod was about coming as close as possible to a certain svm game's gameplay, and implementing a 1-weapon system comes way closer to that than a 3-weapon system, because 90% of the good players use sniper and almost none shotty atm.
quickcams are np when playing as host and with headphones, but in all other cases they are insanely op.
of course there should be a limit on simultaniously placable spy traps, but you alway gotta relate the usefullness of spytraps to mines: what is stronger, 3 mines (that are deadly) or 3 spytraps (that only give away the spies position)? it doesn't take a genious to see that spytraps could need a boost...
but this gadget related fixes are kinda off-topic here, so let's stop here with it XD
my suggestion to the devs is the following: in the beta, implement only the pt rifle and get all the other gadgets balanced first. if this turns out to provide too few variety in the long-term, feel free to add shotty&uzi.
Quotebut in ct you have 70 (!) different gadget loadouts just with 4 out of 8 possible gadgets
???
8*7*6*5 = 1680 possibilities.
Of course, everyone takes mines and frags, so that leaves 8*7=56 possibilities then.
Quote from: FR33M4N on May 19, 2008, 09:20:05 AM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on May 19, 2008, 08:52:58 AM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 06:10:35 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on May 17, 2008, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 17, 2008, 02:10:00 PM
Though, I agree the cam is too overpowered, you basicly have to run around with gasmask activated to prevent you fall asleep cause of it.
No way is cam to overpowered, everyone has just gotten really good at using it. Even quick cams are counter-able, if you can mask fast enough. I never run around a map with my GM on, even against the very best players. People just gotta get used to using the numbers instead of the scroll, u can mask like thrice as fast like that.
Actually, cams are overpowered. Maybe not for good players like you and me, but for everyone else its unbelievable, that you hear the milisecond of a sound and are ko'd.
Quote from: frvge on May 19, 2008, 03:57:05 PM
Quotebut in ct you have 70 (!) different gadget loadouts just with 4 out of 8 possible gadgets
???
8*7*6*5 = 1680 possibilities.
Of course, everyone takes mines and frags, so that leaves 8*7=56 possibilities then.
math-noob ;P
you gotta consider that the sequence doesn't matter, so you gotta divide your number by 4!.
Quote from: Rambo on May 19, 2008, 10:03:38 PM
Quote from: frvge on May 19, 2008, 03:57:05 PM
Quotebut in ct you have 70 (!) different gadget loadouts just with 4 out of 8 possible gadgets
???
8*7*6*5 = 1680 possibilities.
Of course, everyone takes mines and frags, so that leaves 8*7=56 possibilities then.
math-noob ;P
you gotta consider that the sequence doesn't matter, so you gotta divide your number by 4!.
That still gives 420, and 420 != 70 :P
the exclamation mark after the 4 means faculty, eg 4! = 4*3*2*1
Ah, I thought it was just a regular exclamation mark as used in text xD
!= means 'not equal' in programming languages. The mathematical =/= .
Quote from: Cyntrox on May 19, 2008, 10:08:52 PM
Ah, I thought it was just a regular exclamation mark as used in text xD
I immediatly recognized it as faculty... learn math nub! kthnxbai
teh programing is no fun
Programming can be great fun, after you learn to do it.
when you don't pay attention for 3 weeks you get pwned and its no fun
Quote from: Rambo on May 19, 2008, 01:58:32 PM
@lennard: too much variety hurts the game and makes balancing it way too complicated. what you guys don't get is that the gadget slots are supposed to bring variety to the eq loadout, not the basic gun. imo you think too much in other fps terms where different guns are the only real variety you can get, but in ct you have 70 (!) different gadget loadouts just with 4 out of 8 possible gadgets (which you don't see in ct because of bad gadget balance that will be fixed in ps). besides, i always thought that this mod was about coming as close as possible to a certain svm game's gameplay, and implementing a 1-weapon system comes way closer to that than a 3-weapon system, because 90% of the good players use sniper and almost none shotty atm.
quickcams are np when playing as host and with headphones, but in all other cases they are insanely op.
of course there should be a limit on simultaniously placable spy traps, but you alway gotta relate the usefullness of spytraps to mines: what is stronger, 3 mines (that are deadly) or 3 spytraps (that only give away the spies position)? it doesn't take a genious to see that spytraps could need a boost...
but this gadget related fixes are kinda off-topic here, so let's stop here with it XD
my suggestion to the devs is the following: in the beta, implement only the pt rifle and get all the other gadgets balanced first. if this turns out to provide too few variety in the long-term, feel free to add shotty&uzi.
Why? We already know what 1 weapon provides. Half assed short range effectiveness and long range effectiveness. Most of my battles happen when I'm less than 30 feet away from a spy due to a lot of close range map design. Map design has a lot of importance when it comes to 1 weapon/3 weapons. Can a dev confirm that a lot of the maps will be designed for CQB but have some big open areas/rooms? I remember hearing this. If so, I'd really hate to have just the PT rifle instead of a balanced SMG - with possibly a reflex scope. :o
What did you ask? ;D
I guess your answer would be something like: You will know it "When it's done".
Quote from: LennardF1989 on May 19, 2008, 10:39:41 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on May 19, 2008, 10:08:52 PM
Ah, I thought it was just a regular exclamation mark as used in text xD
I immediatly recognized it as faculty... learn math nub! kthnxbai
hehe :D
papa, that's actually one of my points: on a smaller map where the spies have to get closer to the mercs, they already have a harder time. giving the merc a specialized weapon for that purpose hurts the balance. and if you want an advantage in close close-combat, u gotta use one gadget slot for the tazer. with the shotty you don't even need a tazer for that thus resulting in a free slot on small maps with no drawback for the merc at all.
this thread seems to have been taken over by egos ::)
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 20, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
this thread seems to have been taken over by egos ::)
Amen to that.
I've learnt there is no point arguing on forums anymore, no body ever listens.
IMO 3 weapons are fine. Make one GOOD at short rage, one GOOD at Midrange, and one GOOD at long range. Whack a reflex scope on the Uzi, put a sick-nasty sniper scope on the rifle, make the UZI ROF slightly less, but increase the power of the bullets so its slightly less effective at short range, and maybe decrease the magazine clip to about 40 ( I believe its at about 60 atm). Decrease the shotgun reload time, and make close range shots KILL, anything midrange-ish should do only a little damage as shotguns are inaccurate as fuck. Make the sniper zoom scope like all other sniper in other games (basically like it is when you hold your breath, but make it like that all the time). Improve the laser on the guns so you actually know where you are aiming (crysis or hitman laser is good).
Another Idea: Its probably been brought up before, but what about the ability for mercs to completely holster there guns allowing them to run faster? Obviously they wouldn't be able to shoot the spy until they draw their gun again.
Quote from: FR33M4N on May 20, 2008, 06:13:04 PM
Another Idea: Its probably been brought up before, but what about the ability for mercs to completely holster there guns allowing them to run faster? Obviously they wouldn't be able to shoot the spy until they draw their gun again.
I thought about playing around with speed in relation to weapons actually as a balance point.
I wonder if we couldn't make the weaker weapons faster and the stronger weapons slower. Maybe even add a pistol or something. So the pistol merc goes the fastest, the shotty next fastest, then uzi, then rifle. Or something like that.
That might be kind of interesting, though I'm not sure what it would do to balance. Possibly not much if the fast weapons require you to get close anyway and don't do as much damage.
I haven't put any thought into this but whatever...I actually think that going with 1 gun isn't that bad. Not only most people use the Rifle but it is good in mid and long range.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on May 23, 2008, 03:39:30 AM
I haven't put any thought into this but whatever...I actually think that going with 1 gun isn't that bad. Not only most people use the Rifle but it is good in mid and long range.
BUT WAT ABOUT SH0RT R4NG3 GU1?!?!?!?
I'm sayin....rifle covers all three ranges, while the other two are sprays of luck and limitation. I don't see why it can't just go with 1 weapon. I will admit its nice to have variation of weapons, but when it comes down to it you need to have a weapon that can perform the entire time at a significant level. These are supposed to be highly trained mercenaries....not random guys given the choice of weapon and protecting zone. I really want to see more significant arguments from the 3>1 side. Tactic plays a role no matter what, so don't try that bad boy out. Variation doesn't count for shit and you can't aim with a shotgun or an uzi....especially if you're SPRAYING with it. Rate of fire is ridiculous compared to what the rifle is. At least the spy can possibly escape as opposed to getting sucked into the LASER BEAM OF SPRAY.
If the rifle has a ROF between that of the PT rifle and the CT smg, then I'd be fine with it. But still, the game would lose a lot of variation. Especially when the 3 weapons can all be balanced so easily with a few little changes.
Here is a vid i made a long, LONG time ago, especially for all you whining pro sniper 1337 fuckers.
http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2 (http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2)
If PS gets an uzi i will take it again, even if it is the worst gun in the game, just to hear you scream
"oh noes UZI NOOB, laaag".
If its in the game i use it, get over it.
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 23, 2008, 06:55:01 AM
Especially when the 3 weapons can all be balanced so easily with a few little changes.
that's quite a big assumption...
Yes it is a big assumption, but I actually had something to go one while yours was way out in left field. Decrease the range of the smg. Take out the red screen flash when hit by an smg. Possibly decrease the power of the smg, the damage the bullets inflict. The only gun I see with "problems" is the smg, and even then it's not that op.
What problems do you see with the 3 guns we have now? I'm sure that subtle changes could fix all the problems.
how about you re-read my posts, particularily the opening post? omg ::)
I'm for keeping UZI and shotty in game. I'd like to see whiners like Gawain saying "u tehh uzi no0b".
Also, it gives variety. You can always host your own game with these 2 weapons forbidded and play how you want. Thats the key argument here.
Quote from: a3c0i3d on May 23, 2008, 10:19:04 AM
Here is a vid i made a long, LONG time ago, especially for all you whining pro sniper 1337 fuckers.
http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2 (http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2)
If PS gets an uzi i will take it again, even if it is the worst gun in the game, just to hear you scream
"oh noes UZI NOOB, laaag".
If its in the game i use it, get over it.
LoL i can definetly confirm thats an older vid, i remember those days when whiny bitches such as unstoppable911 existed , some old names i never got to play with tho :(... Haunt_Fox and Zomg
Blinkin Actually got a neck ! :o , oh by the way all yall who don't know rogerrabbit420 is some xbox nub
and kicks everyone he sees =/
Quote from: a3c0i3d on May 23, 2008, 10:19:04 AM
Here is a vid i made a long, LONG time ago, especially for all you whining pro sniper 1337 fuckers.
http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2 (http://www.forthesheep.net/downloads.php?cat_id=1&download_id=2)
If PS gets an uzi i will take it again, even if it is the worst gun in the game, just to hear you scream
"oh noes UZI NOOB, laaag".
If its in the game i use it, get over it.
For the sake of staying on topic....I hope all of you watch the video and watch how sick nasty acid is with spraying bullets. OH SO NASTY at just running around with MT on and spraying bullets. So, being noob is not playing a game 15hrs a day....I don't know too many people that do that. Rather, its the person who posted this video just to show how noob they really are. Its fine, take uzi everytime...you'll need it.
Quote from: neth on May 23, 2008, 05:41:15 PM
I'm for keeping UZI and shotty in game. I'd like to see whiners like Gawain saying "u tehh uzi no0b".
Also, it gives variety. You can always host your own game with these 2 weapons forbidded and play how you want. Thats the key argument here.
That is not even close to the "key" argument in any case. Gaiwan doesn't whine. He'll continue to play and probably kick your ass without hesitation. In fact, your argument is the worst argument for keeping something in a game. "BCAUZ I WANT TO SEE HIM WH1N3." Considering both you and acid whine more than Rambo and Papa do together, I would come up with some sort of valid argument as to why you think there should still be a fixed shotty/uzi. Otherwise move on to another thread.
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:57:13 PM
In fact, your argument is the worst argument for keeping something in a game. "BCAUZ I WANT TO SEE HIM WH1N3."
If you could read, you would know that the key argument there was that you can always forbid uzi or shotty if you're convinced that they suck or leave the server when players use it. Isn't that simple ? It surely isn't if all your thoughts about PS are focused around "what we should implement into the game, so everybody plays as I want them to". That's how this moron - Gawain thinks. If you can't realise that some of us may want to have fun with uzis while playing with their own rules, then you think the same way.
We fully intend to have a shotgun and an Uzi, and because we are the developers, we also control the balance of these weapons.
Quote from: neth on May 23, 2008, 07:40:56 PM
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:57:13 PM
In fact, your argument is the worst argument for keeping something in a game. "BCAUZ I WANT TO SEE HIM WH1N3."
If you could read, you would know that the key argument there was that you can always forbid uzi or shotty if you're convinced that they suck or leave the server when players use it. Isn't that simple ? It surely isn't if all your thoughts about PS are focused around "what we should implement into the game, so everybody plays as I want them to". That's how this moron - Gawain thinks. If you can't realise that some of us may want to have fun with uzis while playing with their own rules, then you think the same way.
Its not like that. I was saying that the argument you present wasn't valid. Just because I have the right to ban things from my server doesn't mean that its the #1 point as to why uzi and shotty should stay. Its not that I would want people to play by my own rules. Rifle alone would create a better balance than 3 weapons would. I'm not saying 3 weapons can't be balanced. I'm saying 1 gun has a better tendency to balance than multiple guns. Trust me, I've had my fun with uzi, but it seems more like a joke of a weapon than anything legit.
Quote from: goodkebab on May 23, 2008, 07:41:13 PM
We fully intend to have a shotgun and an Uzi, and because we are the developers, we also control the balance of these weapons.
I'm sorry to hear. I hope they are implemented practically, logically, and balanced as you say. Have you guys played around with them yet?
End of Topic.
neth, stop calling me names and reconsider your points before everyone with a brain here considers you an ignorant fool, they really suck.
btw, i so want a flame-thrower just for more variety and to make you whine, and it's totally balanced because you can ban it on your server... ::)
Quote from: goodkebab on May 23, 2008, 07:41:13 PM
We fully intend to have a shotgun and an Uzi, and because we are the developers, we also control the balance of these weapons.
once again, if you don't make any good arguments for that decision (eg counter mine first), this whole forum is totally pointless.
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 08:01:47 PM
whine, whine, boohoo, uzi noob, boooohoooo
yawn...
Quote from: Rambo on May 23, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on May 23, 2008, 07:41:13 PM
We fully intend to have a shotgun and an Uzi, and because we are the developers, we also control the balance of these weapons.
once again, if you don't make any good arguments for that decision (eg counter mine first), this whole forum is totally pointless.
Here's one: we are the developers, you are not.
Regardless of what you may think, this forum is not here so the public can play armchair game developer all day. I cant think of a single idea that has been brought up on these forums that have influenced our design.
Our goal of gameplay drawn directly from CT with superior coding has not changed, no matter how much all you kids on these forums want to tear at each other's throats.
We are not going to make sweeping changes to a game based on arguments that are only supported by speculation instead of actual empirical evidence.
The main problems with the Uzi and the shotgun were due to sloppy coding and oversights. The shotgun was unpredictable and the Uzi cone of fire was so narrow that it worked too well at all ranges. Implementing the shotgun to fire consistently, widening the uzi cone of fire, and adjusting the damage dealt from each will make them function in a properly balanced manner.
I've kept my mouth shut because I wasn't really sure about the thoughts of the rest of the team, but I also prefer a 3 weapon system. Just feels better IMO.
Quote from: MR.Mic on May 23, 2008, 10:23:25 PM
Quote from: Rambo on May 23, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on May 23, 2008, 07:41:13 PM
We fully intend to have a shotgun and an Uzi, and because we are the developers, we also control the balance of these weapons.
once again, if you don't make any good arguments for that decision (eg counter mine first), this whole forum is totally pointless.
Here's one: we are the developers, you are not.
Regardless of what you may think, this forum is not here so the public can play armchair game developer all day. I cant think of a single idea that has been brought up on these forums that have influenced our design.
Our goal of gameplay drawn directly from CT with superior coding has not changed, no matter how much all you kids on these forums want to tear at each other's throats.
We are not going to make sweeping changes to a game based on arguments that are only supported by speculation instead of actual empirical evidence.
The main problems with the Uzi and the shotgun were due to sloppy coding and oversights. The shotgun was unpredictable and the Uzi cone of fire was so narrow that it worked too well at all ranges. Implementing the shotgun to fire consistently, widening the uzi cone of fire, and adjusting the damage dealt from each will make them function in a properly balanced manner.
Would you like another plate of Pwnage, Sir?
The reason for the no-influence is because 99% of all the threads is about gameplay. And we're not that far yet. I'm tagging posts that I find cool to be implemented. So when we get to the point of gameplay, we'll discuss those posts and more I think.
The three weapon system adds variety. Just leave it at that. With proper balancing, it will all work out.
repeating the same bullshit-point won't make the idea any better ::)