besides fixes in sound, vision modes, gadget balance and netcode, this could be the most interesting change that would make ps superior to ct: not rewarding getting killed with tons of new stuff to spam. the problem for advanced players is that they don't die that regularily so they easily run out of equipment limited by amount (nades, bullets, mines, etc.), whereas aggro fools die more often and get rewarded with with tons of new eq. often in the mid-late game, it is a good idea to voluntarily die (or have your mate kill you) to refill your eq (and especially gas mask!). i also think this is one of the main reasons why hbs > bullets for many advanced players.
so this is my suggestion:
-have spies/mercs spawn with 7 nades/bullets/etc
-every respawn they get 2 less
-make mask a 5th obligatory gadget, and after every respawn you start out with the exact same amount of mask capacity you had left right before dying (like spekkio suggested to stop the hard-counter guessing game and make it easier to balance smoke/cams/mask)
discuss ;)
EDIT: as freeman pointed out to me on xfire, another way to solve this would be to place gadget refill boxes at strategic positions on the map, but i'm still not sure about the ideal properties of those.
EDIT #2: mask
Why not just make backpack stock more stuff, like a gas refill few more nades etc?
5 dumbass. There is no such thing as -2 (theoretically there is, but noone proved it).
Quote from: FR33M4N on August 21, 2008, 03:27:52 PM
Why not just make backpack stock more stuff, like a gas refill few more nades etc?
cause it doesn't solve any of the 2 main eq problems:
-running out of eq/getting rewarded for dying
-hard counters creating guessing games
people, this topic is important. don't spam it if you didn't think through your input.
EDIT: removed blahblah after clarification of cockfan about freeman's edit (you can remove ur two posts now, too). let's keep everything clean =)
Sorry It was to Freeman. Seems he edited his post afterwards.
I wouldnt mind it, but a better system would be:
after first death: less gadgets
after second death: full gadgets
The chances you take when dying for the second time on purpose make up for the full gadgets.
Of course, if you die a third time, you're out of the game.
dying should always be a bad thing, no matter if it's the first or second time, no matter if it's by accident, superior move of the opponent or voluntary suicide. my suggestion mainly deals with aggro spies and mercs suiciding for mask, while making stuff with a limited amount more appealing for pros. your suggestion is kinda inconsistent and is only a solution for a very small part of the problem.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on August 21, 2008, 03:42:44 PM
5 dumbass. There is no such thing as -2 (theoretically there is, but noone proved it).
I was messing around cock nugget. Ofcourse you can't have -2 grenades....
I dont see why one should be penalized and lose gadgets for dying, and then gain gadgets for dying. It also ruins balance during the game. I could understand that people want things different in PS, but lets at least have them make sense.
my suggestion makes perfect sense oO
We could make it some Pro-mode for it (which can be specified server side), though, I would like to see other peopel discussing since it isn't really running hot now (neather do I like the idea).
why don't you like the idea?
What about a strategically placed gadget refil box. Atleast that means to get gadgets you may have to compromise securing one of the objectives? Makes more sense to me.
Quote from: Rambo on August 21, 2008, 06:41:31 PM
why don't you like the idea?
It may be awesome for people that aggro a lot (as some sort of protection, aggro checks maybe?), but it would suck for people playing seriously trying to counter the merc as less as possible (seeing it from the spy side).
If it were me, I would leave a server right away if the cut off my gadget amounts each time I die.
I think we should have ammo refill boxes, but they should have a limit. Instead of acting like an unlimited ammo refill, the box should loose a "refill point" each time it's used (this will also make mercs look for other boxes, in case one runs out of ammo).
More specifically you could make the box loose a type of gadget/weapon when it's refilled. Eg. When you refill frags, the box will lower the amount of frags left in one box. In case you refill ammo, it will loose ammo.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on August 21, 2008, 06:46:28 PM
I think we should have ammo refill boxes, but they should have a limit. Instead of acting like an unlimited ammo refill, the box should loose a "refill point" each time it's used (this will also make mercs look for other boxes, in case one runs out of ammo).
Good idea, would this include gadgets aswell? I think it should :).
Quote from: FR33M4N on August 21, 2008, 06:47:29 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on August 21, 2008, 06:46:28 PM
I think we should have ammo refill boxes, but they should have a limit. Instead of acting like an unlimited ammo refill, the box should loose a "refill point" each time it's used (this will also make mercs look for other boxes, in case one runs out of ammo).
Good idea, would this include gadgets aswell? I think it should :).
We should have seperate boxes for each team then. It would be a little odd if spies could get stuff supplied by the merc his "hirer". If I were to hire mercs, I would make sure that box doesn't contain anything useful for the enemy.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on August 21, 2008, 06:44:02 PM
Quote from: Rambo on August 21, 2008, 06:41:31 PM
why don't you like the idea?
It may be awesome for people that aggro a lot (as some sort of protection, aggro checks maybe?), but it would suck for people playing seriously trying to counter the merc as less as possible (seeing it from the spy side).
are u on drugs? did you even bother to read my suggestion properly? the whole point of it is to give careful players more nades so that they don't get a disadvantage by running out of stuff mid-game and to cut away eq for uncareful aggro players that die a lot. seriously, don't post toal bullshit.
besides not showing your pure ignorance in that attitude, i'd also like you not to spam this thread with the refill box stuff unless you have a proper idea how it should work.
Actually, we both misread eachother.
I'm against the die = lose equipment, unless you clearly aggroed (thus rewarding stealthy careful people). Meaning if you died in an aggro attack or aggroed most of the time, you'll get a "gadget fine" so to speak. Though, I still think this should be defined by the server host, like an option to enable "Aggro fines".
And I just replied to FR33M4N regarding the boxes. It would be great to have them at some points, I just additionally said that:
1. A box should run out of ammo, thus forcing mercs or spies to get their refills somewhere else in the map.
2. Spies should get their own ammo box somewhere in the map, because it would be odd if you could grab stuff from a mercs box as a spy (why would a merc have sound emmiters or sticky camera's in the ammo box anyway?).
No need to get pissy about it, we just had a misunderstanding... Judging from your first post, I obviously didn't understood/couldn't make out it should only affect aggro players.
EDIT:
Note that most mapped stuff is variable, meaning an ammo box can hold a different amount of ammo depending on each map and/or location in a map.
i'm not for limiting the playing style, i just can't see why someone playing carefully and not dying should run out of equipment while someone dying 4 times gets 4 times the amount of equipment and can continue spamming.
placing refill boxes would be quite a drastic change in gameplay and the map design would have to focus around that fact pretty heavily. my suggestion is way less complicated and solves the same problem.
Quote from: Rambo on August 22, 2008, 01:04:22 AM
i'm not for limiting the playing style, i just can't see why someone playing carefully and not dying should run out of equipment while someone dying 4 times gets 4 times the amount of equipment and can continue spamming.
placing refill boxes would be quite a drastic change in gameplay and the map design would have to focus around that fact pretty heavily. my suggestion is way less complicated and solves the same problem.
Because thats what respawning is. If you're going to go the "gadget loss route", then players should start with gadgets and as they die remain with whatever gadgets they had when they died. The way to refill it would be the ammo boxes.
And no, your suggestion doesn't solve any problem(s). I agree with Leonard...if I saw a room where things were changed up, I would leave. If a player dies quickly, or uses everything and dies quickly, they should neither be punished nor rewarded for using gadgets. How does that make sense? If anything, it would make gameplay sloppy because mercs would know if spies had limited amount of eq and vice versa. Keeping a constant helps the game to have depth. If you want to change it, it should be an option....but not different amounts of gadgets pending time of death or use of eq during time of death. Your suggestion has no relation to balance. Its a manipulation of the regular settings which should apply for all games.
Quote from: Westfall on August 22, 2008, 06:48:56 AM
Because thats what respawning is. If you're going to go the "gadget loss route", then players should start with gadgets and as they die remain with whatever gadgets they had when they died. The way to refill it would be the ammo boxes.
Interesting idea
Quote from: Westfall on August 22, 2008, 06:48:56 AM
Quote from: Rambo on August 22, 2008, 01:04:22 AM
If you're going to go the "gadget loss route", then players should start with gadgets and as they die remain with whatever gadgets they had when they died. The way to refill it would be the ammo boxes.
This is a better idea than mine and rambos.
Atleast it wouldn't punish you for dying more than you already are. If one merc is dead, the spies will in most cases complete and objective. It would add a whole new element to gameplay aswell. Players would more regularly take ammo/gadget refills because they fear they are going to die, it would save them time.
westfall, you make no argument at all besides your personal preference.
i had quite a long talk with mr.mic yesterday witch lead me to these thoughts:
-the tactical decision to kill or to knock out a merc (buy more time and face new eq or buy less and let him run out) should stay in the game; same goes for suiciding/teamkilling in the right moment
-the position you infiltrated to on the map makes up for some lack of equipment (cause you need time and probably some eq to get to that position again from the spawn point), but this balance factor heavily relies on map design (for instance, compare factory and steel)
-it makes absolutely no sense that every gadget amount is set to 5 (or 4 on the merc side). 5 is a good number for nades, but certainly not for snares, bullets etc
-making mask a permanent gadget makes perfect sense, but would probably require to give the mercs only 3 free slots
i still think that the necessity to die to not run out of eq is totally stupid, so there must be either a possibility to refill gadgets on the map or something similar to the system i suggested.
Quote from: Westfall on August 22, 2008, 06:48:56 AM
If you're going to go the "gadget loss route", then players should start with gadgets and as they die remain with whatever gadgets they had when they died. The way to refill it would be the ammo boxes.
NOW we're making some progress.
i don't like the idea of mercs and spies sharing the same ammo box cause it makes absolutely no sense, but your idea is a nice synthesis overall. it could even be combinded with an inventory-style idea of kurbutti.
it could work like this:
-if you die you respawn with the exact same amount of eq you had left when dying
-you can refill your eq at ammonition boxes placed rather far away from objectives
-every ammunition box holds a certain inventory that can run out
-mercs carry only 3 nades etc so that backpack is still useful
So is this what we want:
- The ability for merc and spies to refill their gadgets from ammo boxes. Mercs and spies should not use the same ammo box.
- When killed, you respawn with the same amount of equipment / gadgets that you had before dying.
- There to be a limit on how many times you can refill from the ammo boxes (the ammo boxes run out of equipment). But this should be different for all ammo boxes, depending on the location of the box (for example an ammo box right next to an objective, should maybe allow 1-2 refills, whereas a box that draws mercs from positions they have to cover allow 3-6 refills).
My only question is where would you put the spy refill boxes?
In spawn?
Places which would force spies to reveal themselves?
Quote from: FR33M4N on August 22, 2008, 05:43:18 PM
My only question is where would you put the spy refill boxes?
In spawn?
Places which would force spies to reveal themselves?
They should be at least out of sight, in spy-only areas but not necessarily fully safe from grenades.
There should also be a visual objective-like HUD indication on the location of that box. The icon should change colour depending on how much stuff is still left, and it shows only for the selected gadget. Green, whenever it can provide a full resupply, yellow when it can't and red when empty. This system can apply for both spies and mercs, because it provides the relevant information quickly and you don't have to waste time playing with the binocs or any other funny inventory tool.
EDIT: Here's a question: Should there be a sound assiciated with the spy refill? Not necessary something that causes the reticle to ping, but something unique enough so that mercs will know when a spy refills their equipment if they happen to be near enough.
Quote from: Kurbutti on August 22, 2008, 07:31:15 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on August 22, 2008, 05:43:18 PM
My only question is where would you put the spy refill boxes?
In spawn?
Places which would force spies to reveal themselves?
EDIT: Here's a question: Should there be a sound assiciated with the spy refill? Not necessary something that causes the reticle to ping, but something unique enough so that mercs will know when a spy refills their equipment if they happen to be near enough.
Oh god YES!
i still think that the 7 - 2/respawn system is superior (for the spy side).
Quote from: Rambo on August 22, 2008, 10:58:26 PM
i still think that the 7 - 2/respawn system is superior (for the spy side).
But spies don't kill each other for EQ...
But it does what it's supposed to: it punishes dying.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on August 23, 2008, 02:16:35 AM
But it does what it's supposed to: it punishes dying.
punishing for death is retarded...
it's not about some form of "punishment", it's about removing imbalances in the eq system.
if you die 2 times, you get the exact same amount of stuff you get in ct if you sum it up, so it's only fine tuning (unlike the drastic changes a refill box system implies). unless you want careful players to run out of equipment while uncareful players can spam all day long, this is the way to go (not dying: 5 smoke nades; dying 5 times: 25 smoke nades, yay).
same goes for mask as a permanent gadget: the difference to ct is minimal cause virtually every good player takes mask anyways, but it would remove the hard-counter guessing game.
I can throw at least two problems within rambo's idea from the top of my head:
First, I'd say that there will be situations in the game where getting a single objective will become extremely hard and fatal even with full equipment. Given the circumstances spies might die multiple times in the process, and each time they loose a life they suffer a minus in their equipment, further weakening their chances to get through. Furthermore, don't forget that dying already costs you a lot of time.
Secondly, I don't think noobs will find this very appealing. Sad truth is, that noob spies really die - a lot. Now I'm imagining a noob spy with 1 piece of each equipment fighting their way trhrough a shitload of mines.
Simply put, this system stretches the gap between merc/spy sklil correlation more than goatse guy can stratch his ass.
I really don't think this is needed - if anything Westfall had a nice idea, however when you respawn everything revolving around YOU should be back to square one, there isn't any real problem with the gadget system in place. The way I see it everyone wants to change everything and sometimes it's just unnecessary.
However if you want to change certain properties of the game, I think the host should have the ability to do that, and they already do in terms of static properties with alternate mode, maybe that could go into more depth.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on August 23, 2008, 06:14:53 AM
when you respawn everything revolving around YOU should be back to square one,
If I die, the game should restart? There's no going back to square one after the game advances by one nanosecond. I'm suprised how many left the most essential element completely out from the debate.
Quotethere isn't any real problem with the gadget system in place.
So what's bad about the new ones?
QuoteHowever if you want to change certain properties of the game, I think the host should have the ability to do that, and they already do in terms of static properties with alternate mode, maybe that could go into more depth.
First of all, none played CT in alternative mode.
Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.
Third of all, this game is centered around a single mechanic, the story mode as we call it, and simply on the basis of the thought and reasoning behind it's creation it's obvious that the mechanic is going to be balanced to play well with an
exact set of features. If we allow people to pick off something they don't like, the gameplay is already destroyed.
Fourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.
Quote from: Kurbutti on August 23, 2008, 06:52:13 AM
Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.
Well, manipulating what gadgets you have after each life seems like it should go into the "alternate" category by your logic. Either it should stay at a constant for respawning, or gadgets should be maintained throughout with the ability to reload at ammo boxes. There's no significant need or balance that would lead to the conclusion of changing gadget amounts based on death.
QuoteFourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.
This was one thing I left out of the argument because I thought Rambo would hate the idea of including noobs in the discussion.
Quote from: FR33M4N on August 22, 2008, 05:43:18 PM
So is this what we want:
- The ability for merc and spies to refill their gadgets from ammo boxes. Mercs and spies should not use the same ammo box.
- When killed, you respawn with the same amount of equipment / gadgets that you had before dying.
- There to be a limit on how many times you can refill from the ammo boxes (the ammo boxes run out of equipment). But this should be different for all ammo boxes, depending on the location of the box (for example an ammo box right next to an objective, should maybe allow 1-2 refills, whereas a box that draws mercs from positions they have to cover allow 3-6 refills).
I think the "-2" idea is retarded, as dying (as merc or spy) is enough punishment in itself. Spies never kill themselves for EQ anyway. Just do what we discussed (read up) for both sides, it's much more realistic, and better for gameplay.
By implementing this system it would make backpack less vital aswell. Players could either use a gadget slot for backpack and refill "on the fly" or take another gadget and have to refill with the ammo boxes.
Gasmask should be a compulsory gadget for story mode, and players can pick 4/5 other gadgets.
Kurbutti just because your player respawns doesn't mean the map they are playing on does too, I said everything revolving around THEM, not the map :). What's bad about the new suggesstion is it punishes for death, and ultimately that's not very logical because you punish YOURSELF for being an idiot, the idea of dying in a way is to teach people how NOT to die, and if you take gadgets away too that hinders your ability to do that, thus turning people away.
I don't think you can give the host too much control really in terms of what effects them when playing the game, obviously they can't change things like lighting as that's a balanced part of the maps but things like gravity and whatnot, there's no reason why that shouldn't be allowed really, if you don't like the rules that the host has made for their server don't visit it, infact I think UT3 has a filter system so do what you like, and other people can too.
You only said that "too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations", if a lot of people play a certain gametype doesn't that say something good about it? Unless of course it's official modes that people whore to the extent they don't check out others, that's why it's an ALTERNATIVE setting.
first of all, custom rules suck, there's nothing to discuss about that.
secondly, widening the gap between pros and noobs isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing.
it's bullshit to make careful players die because they run out of nades they need for a successfull escape or aggro attack on the last objective. the biggest problem about this imbalance is smoke/cams, because those drain the merc's mask: if you dont die, you get 5 of each and they aren't that strong because the merc has almost full mask. if you die 5 times and get 25 smoke nades and cams, they totally pwn cause the merc has an empty mask. maybe the merc should get back 20% mask for each frag XD
so what i foresee is that most careful pro players will use mostly gadgets that dont depend on an empty mask and wont run out, so the new standart eq might always have camo and hbs which is bad for variety.
AMMO / GADGET REFILL BOXES! No need for all of these over-complex systems for such a simple thing, getting more gadgets..
This is a really bad idea, and it will ruin the gameplay all in all.
I am sure you are fed up with mercs killing themselves for new EQ or spies getting a new aggrowave on you after you have killed them.
What this will lead to:
- You will get more aggro spies (kill the merc a few times and he cant nade the hacksites. An All in solution)
- For those spies who actually play it stealthy they will now not get rewarded for their KOs/clever play and when they get killed the game will become start getting near to impossible.
- Maps will have to be designed in a whole different way. (how will a spy team mange to take out a map situation like cafe on museum without gear?)
- Mercs will get even harder punished when aggro spies have abit of luck with monster aggro. (and with no Uzi, what is left to do? )
- basically you loose the wide deep gameplay the game offers. (back to CS when you die to much you do not get the cash to buy guns)
If any you should have this "loosing gadgets" rule solely for the merc suicides. But then again, a mistake at the wrong place is costing mercs enough already.
Really starting to get abit worried when i see all the suggestions made here. :/
Lets say we have Bob and Joe. They play Generic FPS. Bob is 2x as good as Joe. They both start with 100 health. They fight, and now Bob has 50 health, and Joe died. Joe respawns, but as it turn out, the devs were out to get him, and decreased his health to 80. Now they fight again. Bob ends up with 10 health and Joe dies again, further penalizing him. He quits, realizing that he has no chance of winning.
Al this idea does is make the start of the match the point of highest intensity, and the points after negligible. Once a team has died once, it will lose it's ability to play at 100%. When this happens, it secures victory for the opposing team, because if they beat them when they weren't disadvantaged, they can beat them when they're weakened.
Quote from: Westfall on August 23, 2008, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: Kurbutti on August 23, 2008, 06:52:13 AM
Second of all, too much host control will just result in servers having their own gay rules and regulations.
Well, manipulating what gadgets you have after each life seems like it should go into the "alternate" category by your logic. Either it should stay at a constant for respawning, or gadgets should be maintained throughout with the ability to reload at ammo boxes. There's no significant need or balance that would lead to the conclusion of changing gadget amounts based on death.
QuoteFourth of all, if we would allow it to happen, it will become harder for the newbies to learn to play "the right way", because they' would be all confused by custom rules forged by the hosts.
This was one thing I left out of the argument because I thought Rambo would hate the idea of including noobs in the discussion.
QFE.
Why change something that is just fine the way it is? It does feel like punishing having your equipments amount decreased after you die.
@all: if you haven't noticed, you would start out with a higher eq amount before it decreases. i think it would be a good idea to implement that system for the spy side only. on the merc side i'd like to see mask becoming a permanent gadget.
@ Rambo: how about reversing the system? Later (when you need them most) you'd have more gadgets, and it would prevent early-match rushes (rush with 2-3 smokes, meh).
toal bs. early game rushes get the game going and you would only have more eq in the end if you die a lot yay ::)
ok seriously on this entire thing, why don't you just leave the game play as it is.. and leave to the devs to decide.. HENCE ITS PROJECT STEALTH.. NOT PROJECT LEMME LOOZe MOAR gADGETS / AGGRO THE HELL OUT OF EVERYTHING..
I don't really see the dying thing as being that big a deal.
The only time that you probably want to kill yourself for more gas mask is if the spies are aggro, but if they're aggro, then wasting a life for a refill may end up costing you the game.
agent you moron, gtfo of my thread, kk thx bai.
@invisible: there are 2 problems with mask:
-it's a hard counter guessing game
-spies respawning very often can totally outspam your mask while careful spies can't
making mask a permanent gadget solves the first problem, having some sort of refill solves the 2nd.
Quote from: Rambo on August 25, 2008, 01:36:26 AM
toal bs. early game rushes get the game going and you would only have more eq in the end if you die a lot yay ::)
Total bullshit is what you're saying: "you won't need equipment in the end if you're good".
What if you're playing against someone who actually knows how to open the game and it goes until the last seconds? I see you needing a whole fucking lot of equipments, then.
that's exactly my point gui XD
if you don't die at least some times, you are totally fucked in the mid-late game. that's why i think you should get a little more eq in the beginning so that you can save it up for later if you don't die. it's not that you would get zero stuff in the late game if you die, say, 2 times...
which is why the idea still remains imbalanced...in fact..its more than imbalanced...its not even close.
sry i can't follow your logic...
Simple matter is this, the majority disagree with you and in the end when it comes to making a game with input from people who understand the game genre as much as we do, a majority vote should always win. It just doesn't work at all in my opinion.
I'm, personally, with Westfall.
+1 for Westfall.
How about we keep the gadgets the same?
Don't be a noob. Tard.
how about coming up with some logical arguments (like mr.mic did for the merc side) instead of personal preferences?
Well, logic tells me that later-game equipment (spy side) is more important than later game equipment, since spies have less objectives left, and those are guarded heavier than the early-game ones.
The logical argument is: There isn't any logic on messing up with something that is just fine.
Quote from: Rambo on August 25, 2008, 05:48:19 PM
that's exactly my point gui XD
if you don't die at least some times, you are totally fucked in the mid-late game. that's why i think you should get a little more eq in the beginning so that you can save it up for later if you don't die. it's not that you would get zero stuff in the late game if you die, say, 2 times...
Westfall covers up whatever A while Noisewater covers whatever B. Ion and I have been getting buttfucked since the beginning of the round, however, SUDDENTLY, in a glorious nooblicious movement, Westfall manages to team kill Noise, thus creating the perfect opportunity for my retarded singing team to win this glorious round! OH NO WAIT, Since I died 3 times already - and Ion isn't being any helpful either, OBVIOUSLY -, I barely have any equipment to cover Ion's butt from West's "paint n' spray".
Why should I be "punished" (yes, to me it IS punishment) for being worse? You never know if the opportunity to win will come in the first or last 5 seconds.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on August 26, 2008, 12:34:17 AM
Well, logic tells me that later-game equipment (spy side) is more important than later game equipment,
Uh, what?
it's not about punishing dying, it's rather about not punishing staying alive.
if you compete 25 smoke nades to 5 smoke nades and see no imbalance in the eq system, i really don't know what else to say.
min(5 , (numberoflivesleft+numberoftimespartnerdied/2))
Basically, nades get into your equip and are delete when your teammate dies.
So for the 10 seconds that he's waiting to respawn, you have like 1-3 more nade.
When he spawns, he gets his share which is subtracted from yours.
So:
*start with 4 lives each*
5-5
*partner dies*
5-0
*use 2 nades*
euh, now I'm kinda being stupid with the 'rule' above, but it would basically be an adapting system.
so you want nades to beam around from one spy to the other for no apparent reason? oO
Would be something interesting to look into for the mercs, but definitely not for spies. Reason being is that I would bet that if one were able to look at statistics, the amount of merc kills vastly outnumber the amount of spy kills. It's just the nature of how each team was designed. Mercs have tools to shoot things and blow things up. Spies have to put a lot more effort into killing.
But you could also fix that by making the mercs more easily killable -- things like no team healing or better jump hit detection would go far.
I also don't know of too many spies who suicide to spam more equipment.
I have two issues with this, though: First, if you give the mercs less equipment with each death, then you create even less incentive to use the KO after a grab.
Second, I keep seeing the phrase "punishment for dying." There already is a punishment for dying: it's called losing. The fact that anyone is considering this idea is a tribute to how rare it is to see merc elimination, so look into fixing the cause rather than the effect. Aside from that, spies have to reinfiltrate the map, and mercs have to often scramble to get into a defensive position that is far from the respawn point. Spies don't die on purpose because spy lives are more precious than merc lives, even though they get more of them, and because it can be quite difficult to penetrate choke points after the mercs have had time to set up their defenses. Play against mercs who know how to snipe, place mines/traps well, use camnet efficiently, and position themselves well and get back to me on how easy it is to just run around and "spam" stuff as spies.
Kind of a ramble but I'm tired. Anyway, yea, this idea misses the forest for the trees or some other gay saying like that.
i already mentioned that it would be a bad idea for the merc side.
reconsidering my opinion after all the input i think it all comes down to either consider mercs suiciding at tactical times (and better spy players choosing eq like flash/camo/whatever/hbs more likely than others) to be a wanted part of gameplay, or to provide some balanced refill system. atm against smoke/cam spammers you gotta suicide/teamkill at least once (which is totally possible and certainly a good if not overpowered counter) which looks kinda strange to newcomers and is often considered lame, but i can live with that. however one thing is for sure: mask has to become a permanent gadget.
another (probably crazy) idea would be to let players choose how many lives they want and give eq accordingly: 5 lives => normal amount, 3 lives => double amount.
I still don't see whats wrong with refill boxes. Why is everything getting so damn complication for something so simple. Placed well, refill boxes will be fine. If we go on like this soon merc will have to find there eq.
Or just keep it how it is now...
I agree with Freeman. Topics on "new" subjects are getting too complicated now that there are almost no subjects left to discuss about.
There is no problem, aggroing is part of the game. There should be any fines, and refill boxes can get a boost (eg. Grenades from a ammobox) as long as the ammo box isn't infinitely filled (thus runs out of ammo).
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind stuff being discussed. But now that almost everything has been discussed, topics get filled with nonsense suggestions, people start thinking to complicated on what, when and how. Like this topic, it tries to tackle a problem which might not even be a problem in PS.
When time comes I'm sure, we as team, will reopen discussions (say a new gadget). To see if you guys still agree on it and if not, well, we'll still add it anyway :P
Its not the fact that the idea are complicated. Its that they aren't thoroughly thought through before being posted. Maybe they were, but they still come out sounding off target. Things like that shouldn't be presented, but I encourage that they are only because it eventually spawned the idea of refill boxes being placed. So in a way we may have even found a simple solution that can be balanced easily.
if refill boxes should work well it's definitely not gonna be easy to implement them.
the main problem with discussions is that the most important areas ps can improve over ct like special visions, gadget balance, sound system, eq system etc have either been discussed to death or can only be reasonably discussed after beta release. what we definitely don't need are discussions about fancy new gadgets, polls for actions against flaming etc..
Quote from: Rambo on August 27, 2008, 04:31:28 PM
if refill boxes should work well it's definitely not gonna be easy to implement them
If you mean by coding...then...not exactly. Well, not that I think anyway, because there are quite a few games out there with ammo boxes. I have never heard of them being hard.
If you mean by map placement, then, maybe. It will take a few tries, but think about the spots for 10 minutes, and you could figure it out.
You guys shouldn't really worry on whether something is hard to do or not... We'll get that something done no matter what (even if it's a pain in the arse). Great example are the visions.
so how exactly should those refill boxes work?
They give you a refill of equipment. I dont like it but how the hell else would a refill box work?
Quote from: Rambo on August 30, 2008, 01:15:12 PM
so how exactly should those refill boxes work?
I do'n't mean how they work, but the technical aspect of it (placement in the map, code), it's you guys job to suggest, not think on whether it's possible or not ;D
I didn't read anybodies response, but queer idea. Oh and I thought you guys were working hard for aggro to be next to suicide? So it shouldn't be an issue.
*edited out a word which is perfectly fine, but in this context used as a not-so-nice word. Because I am in a bad mood and stuff*
What about: Equipment amounts based on the number of enemies you kill.
Suicide without killing anybody = No new equipment :P
what i don't like about refill boxes is that they feel quite strange on the spy side. the best system i can think of so far is:
> "8-1/respawn" for the spies (and/or maybe a refill box at the spawn)
> refill boxes for the mercs similar to the ammo boxes, but in slightely more afield places (unlimited ammo, refill for gadgets of the amount matching with one respawn)
> mask becomes a permanent gadget
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 03:18:33 PM
what i don't like about refill boxes is that they feel quite strange on the spy side.
Do spies actually need EQ refills, i mean its not often as a spy u run out of eq unless aggroing or covering, which Is fine. Thinking about it, hardly ever, well for me anyway. Question is:
Do Spies run out of EQ enough to grant EQ refills?
tbh, i don't run out of eq that often because i die of lag charges, soundloss-mines and all the other bullshit that won't be present in ps. let's see how the dying-rate turns out in the beta.
As far as i know, it's not because of soundloss (whatever it is), but it's because the sound emmiter can be put behind the wall where the mine is, and since the beeping sound can't go through walls, you can't hear it.
^Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
you're wrong. with eax superhearing i can hear stuff at the other end of the map, one wall would be np XD
however there are some spots that always fuck up the sounds location like the lamps on club.
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 06:12:36 PM
you're wrong. with eax superhearing i can hear stuff at the other end of the map,
If you hear mines, then you're right.
If you only hear player actions, then you're wrong (player sounds aren't affected by volumes).
I can hear mines through walls. I can also hear players walking around through walls.
I don't understand this line of thinking...
Complaint: Mercs get too much equipment via backpack and suiciding for more equipment.
Suggested solution 1: decrease equipment per respawn
*useless banter*
Suggested solution 2: Put ammo boxes in the map that would allow mercs to refill the same equipment as before, but without the penalty of dying.
Wtf ???
Someone please explain how that makes any sense at all. The problem isn't that mercs get new equipment with suiciding; it's that merc elimination is too difficult to achieve against good players. Fix that imbalane, and you this issue will resolve itself.
Quote from: FR33M4N on September 03, 2008, 08:56:03 PM
I can hear mines through walls. I can also hear players walking around through walls.
I can't hear mines further than about 10 meters away, and I can't hear them through any walls (i have eax on).
@spekkio: i wasn't aware that merc elimination is too hard, afterall it's story mode oO
so you're solution is to have mercs dying regularily; that's certainly not the game i wanna play.
if you want mercs suiciding for eq (particularily mask) and careful spies running out of eq you're right that there's nothing to fix.
i however think there are certain imbalances and some bullshit evolving out of tradition (like 4/5 as the only gadget numbers) in the eq system and that it's time to fix it. i have to admit that i don't know a really good solution yet, but hey, this is the place to discuss ideas...
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
i however think there are certain imbalances and some bullshit evolving out of tradition (like 4/5 as the only gadget numbers)
I don't get the bold part.
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
@spekkio: i wasn't aware that merc elimination is too hard, afterall it's story mode oO
so you're solution is to have mercs dying regularily; that's certainly not the game i wanna play.
if you want mercs suiciding for eq (particularily mask) and careful spies running out of eq you're right that there's nothing to fix.
i however think there are certain imbalances and some bullshit evolving out of tradition (like 4/5 as the only gadget numbers) in the eq system and that it's time to fix it. i have to admit that i don't know a really good solution yet, but hey, this is the place to discuss ideas...
If the mercs weren't intended to be killed, then the spies wouldn't be able to win by elimination and spies wouldn't be given lethal capability.
However, the amount of games won strictly by elimination is exceptionally low. So low that the penalty of trading a life to gain more equipment is a lot less of a gamble than it ought to be.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 03, 2008, 09:49:26 PM
I don't understand this line of thinking...
Complaint: Mercs get too much equipment via backpack and suiciding for more equipment.
Suggested solution 1: decrease equipment per respawn
*useless banter*
Suggested solution 2: Put ammo boxes in the map that would allow mercs to refill the same equipment as before, but without the penalty of dying.
Wtf ???
Someone please explain how that makes any sense at all. The problem isn't that mercs get new equipment with suiciding; it's that merc elimination is too difficult to achieve against good players. Fix that imbalane, and you this issue will resolve itself.
Honestly, I said put ammo boxes in to counter the idea Rambo came up with, and people started liking it. I was just trying to kill the thread and it only got bigger.
Merc elimination isn't supposed to be inevitable. They are supposed to be stronger than the spies....pretty sure bullets would rape someone any day compared to a small tazer. Its not an imbalance....it makes sense.
QuoteMerc elimination isn't supposed to be inevitable. They are supposed to be stronger than the spies....pretty sure bullets would rape someone any day compared to a small tazer. Its not an imbalance....it makes sense.
When did I say it should be inevitable? There's a large spectrum between nearly impossible and inevitable.
mercs are supposed to be overpowering compared to the spies. They are there to destroy ANYTHING that comes in....If spies were as strong as mercs they should have guns.....if spies were to eliminate mercs...they would be recon like "Ghost recon" and have guns...this game doesn't entail that mercs be eliminated at rapid pace. Spies are supposed to win while avoiding/KO-ing/necking mercs but completing the objectives.
Lets face it...if you win by eliminating the mercs...you're playing noobs.
Westfall, your post doesn't make any sense.
The fact is, the spies do have lethal options to use on the merc, and killing the mercs off triggers a victory. It's quite clear that the game was designed to have spies that are capable of killing the mercs. I would even say that a lot of the maps are balanced in a way that necessitates elimination to be balanced. Yet you still insist that spies must have specific equipment like a "Ghost Recon loadout" to kill mercs.
Wtf ???
Yes, mercs are supposed to be better at killing than spies. I'm not disputing that, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. That is supposed to be balanced by the fact that spies have more lives. I am, however, suggesting that killing the mercs is too difficult to be balanced, and that creates other problems like mercs freely suiciding with very little worry that they'll actually be eliminated. Get it yet?
Quote from: Spekkio on September 04, 2008, 02:59:41 AM
Westfall, your post doesn't make any sense.
The fact is, the spies do have lethal options to use on the merc, and killing the mercs off triggers a victory. It's quite clear that the game was designed to have spies that are capable of killing the mercs. I would even say that a lot of the maps are balanced in a way that necessitates elimination to be balanced. Yet you still insist that spies must have specific equipment like a "Ghost Recon loadout" to kill mercs.
Wtf ???
Yes, mercs are supposed to be better at killing than spies. I'm not disputing that, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. That is supposed to be balanced by the fact that spies have more lives. I am, however, suggesting that killing the mercs is too difficult to be balanced, and that creates other problems like mercs freely suiciding with very little worry that they'll actually be eliminated. Get it yet?
lol...dude, I do get it....I was kind of drunk on the last post, so sorry if it sounded retarded. Maybe merc lives just need to be cut down?
It's easy enough to kill good players I think. Aslong as you don't recycle old tactics and come up with some original stuff. Remember the PS maps will be darker, making it harder for mercs and easier for spies. Before we start going into merc life reduction (pretty drastic) we should just test the alpha.
it should definitely NOT be easier to kill mercs than it's now, otherwise the whole gameplay would cycle around that.
Quote from: FR33M4N on September 04, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
It's easy enough to kill good players I think. Aslong as you don't recycle old tactics and come up with some original stuff. Remember the PS maps will be darker, making it harder for mercs and easier for spies. Before we start going into merc life reduction (pretty drastic) we should just test the alpha.
Merc life reduction isn't drastic at all. It's already an option, and one that I've used at times when playing maps like warehouse or bank.
Quote from: Rambo on September 04, 2008, 04:50:45 PM
it should definitely NOT be easier to kill mercs than it's now, otherwise the whole gameplay would cycle around that.
What's wrong with someone choosing to win by elimination?
Quote from: Spekkio on September 04, 2008, 06:52:14 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on September 04, 2008, 01:03:57 PM
It's easy enough to kill good players I think. Aslong as you don't recycle old tactics and come up with some original stuff. Remember the PS maps will be darker, making it harder for mercs and easier for spies. Before we start going into merc life reduction (pretty drastic) we should just test the alpha.
Merc life reduction isn't drastic at all. It's already an option, and one that I've used at times when playing maps like warehouse or bank.
Quote from: Rambo on September 04, 2008, 04:50:45 PM
it should definitely NOT be easier to kill mercs than it's now, otherwise the whole gameplay would cycle around that.
What's wrong with someone choosing to win by elimination?
For Story it is. Not many / if any servers have custom rules. I just think the life count, for both sides needs to be considered more carefully for each level. This can all be discussed at the alpha release. Remember on different maps its easier / harder to kill mercs.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 04, 2008, 06:52:14 PM
What's wrong with someone choosing to win by elimination?
firstly, i don't wanna play dm, i wanna play story mode as we know it. secondly, a merc can just camp at spawn with his last life to prevent that.
Quotefirstly, i don't wanna play dm, i wanna play story mode as we know it.
What exactly do you mean "as you know it?"
Quotesecondly, a merc can just camp at spawn with his last life to prevent that.
In which case you start neutralizing objectives and win.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 05, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Quotefirstly, i don't wanna play dm, i wanna play story mode as we know it.
What exactly do you mean "as you know it?"
in this context, 0-2 merc deaths/round.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 05, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Quotesecondly, a merc can just camp at spawn with his last life to prevent that.
In which case you start neutralizing objectives and win.
which is exactly what you should try to do in the first place, not after playing dm for a while. if havoc&weezer style becomes the norm, i don't wanna play this game anymore.
Quotein this context, 0-2 merc deaths/round.
And they have 6 lives. This is why mercs can suicide freely for equipment.
Quotewhich is exactly what you should try to do in the first place, not after playing dm for a while. if havoc&weezer style becomes the norm, i don't wanna play this game anymore.
Who are you to tell people what playstyle to use? As a merc, you're attempting to kill spies either way, so what does it matter whether or not they attack you?
i don't tell people how to play, i tell what balance i wanna see in story mode for a gameplay i can enjoy.
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2008, 02:17:20 AM
i don't tell people how to play, i tell what balance i wanna see in story mode for a gameplay i can enjoy.
You have 0 control over how someone plays. If they play it aggro and win, then you obviously need to do something better to counter it. Same goes for if you get beat by stealth. Thats what makes the game so unique....you don't really know when ppl will act stealthy or go aggressive. Remember that PS will not be about what Rambo wants.
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2008, 12:44:36 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on September 05, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Quotefirstly, i don't wanna play dm, i wanna play story mode as we know it.
What exactly do you mean "as you know it?"
in this context, 0-2 merc deaths/round.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 05, 2008, 12:25:42 AM
Quotesecondly, a merc can just camp at spawn with his last life to prevent that.
In which case you start neutralizing objectives and win.
which is exactly what you should try to do in the first place, not after playing dm for a while. if havoc&weezer style becomes the norm, i don't wanna play this game anymore.
Don't you think if everybody played with the same style, it'd get repetitive, and boring. It's good there is such a big difference in the different play styles, thats what makes it unique.
i love variety in tactics, i just don't want aggro to get any easier than it is in ct. a balance allowing 100% aggro is just as bad as allowing 100% stealth. in ct 80% aggro or stealth is effective, 100% fails, and that's a good thing, afterall it's stealth-action-mp.
however, i have to agree with spekkio that the number of lives, especially on the merc side, is too high. reducing the merc lives to 2 would make them think twice before suiciding for eq and would make them play more carefully. i'd also reduce the number of spy lives, but i guess i'm alone on this one.
Idon't know if I would reduce the number of lives for a spy....it would make them act more cautious, but it would depend on how many objectives they needed. I am def for a reduction in merc lives though.
QuoteDon't you think if everybody played with the same style, it'd get repetitive, and boring. It's good there is such a big difference in the different play styles, thats what makes it unique.
Yes, but this conversation is frustrating because people keep taking what I say to the extreme.
Easier to kill mercs != constant elimination at the hands of the spies. It means that the possibility exists more than 1 out of every 100 games. 0-2 merc kills a game still gives the merc team 4 lives to play around with. Yes, some people will use that to play a more predominately aggro style, but some people will also still use stealth tactics as long as its viable. Which is fine by me as long as the game remains balanced.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 05, 2008, 07:44:58 PM
QuoteDon't you think if everybody played with the same style, it'd get repetitive, and boring. It's good there is such a big difference in the different play styles, thats what makes it unique.
Yes, but this conversation is frustrating because people keep taking what I say to the extreme.
Easier to kill mercs != constant elimination at the hands of the spies. It means that the possibility exists more than 1 out of every 100 games. 0-2 merc kills a game still gives the merc team 4 lives to play around with. Yes, some people will use that to play a more predominately aggro style, but some people will also still use stealth tactics as long as its viable. Which is fine by me as long as the game remains balanced.
I was agreeing with you lol.
spekkio, i'm fine with giving the merc side less lives. but i'm definitely against changing gameplay balance to make aggro easier.
In PT, the mercs actually had to worry about dying from the spies (mostly by gay SS+DJ, which I definitely don't want back, but that's besides the point). I don't think it's a bad thing if that were returned a little more. The game is supposed to be stealth action, not just stealth.
It's wonderful how everyone went nuts when Ubi said they were gonna make the thing more stealthy and remove a lot of aggro'ing from it back when DA was still being produced. But now, there's a shitload of people wanting PS to be full-stealth and nothing more than stealth. Let aggro alone and stop blaming it for Jesus' death, already.
Because yeah, I'm one of those "babies" who loves spamming flash grenades infront of you and doing non-sense movements all around you....Especially with a 340 ping.
By the way, I said it should be easier to kill the mercs in general. That does not necessarily mean it needs to be done in an aggro way.
I wasn't directing the post at you. Actually, I was directing it to the general idea that most have about how evil aggro is and how you can cause an armaggedon if you overdo it, not to how much you can kill mercs with it compared to stealth.
4 and 3 lives are perfect numbers for spy and merc lives. Any other numbers wont work, as we can see on the example of station and missile.
Head hurts....... : :-X
Let's just keep everything the same but the shitty netcode, what say?
I never found extra respawn gadgets that much of a problem anyway.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2008, 12:18:06 AM
By the way, I said it should be easier to kill the mercs in general. That does not necessarily mean it needs to be done in an aggro way.
Nah, not at all. Aggro teams can win in this game with some difficulty, and that's probably about as good as we want aggro to get. Otherwise stealth will just be out the window and people will just go for necks.
The game should maintain its stealth motto and winning by killing the mercs should be hard. Otherwise, the game just turns into a deathmatch.
Three lives is good for the merc side. If people want to punish mercs who die, I'd say just not give them equipment on a suicide (or if their partner kills them). If a spy necks you, you should get your equipment back, simply because a spy can always choose to KO a merc instead of necking him, so that's a trade-off that I'm okay with. Killing him takes him out for a longer period, but gives him more equipment. KOing him knocks him out and doesn't replenish his gear.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on September 06, 2008, 12:15:24 AM
Because yeah, I'm one of those "babies" who loves spamming flash grenades infront of you and doing non-sense movements all around you....Especially with a 340 ping.
QFE. It's even more fun on noobni's and razorx's shitty servers!
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2008, 03:39:36 PM
i love variety in tactics, i just don't want aggro to get any easier than it is in ct. a balance allowing 100% aggro is just as bad as allowing 100% stealth. in ct 80% aggro or stealth is effective, 100% fails, and that's a good thing, afterall it's stealth-action-mp.
Well regardless of how you make the game, if you can go aggro at all, then 100% aggro is going to be viable. It may not be the best tactic, but it's going to be something that people can do.
I would say that 100% stealth should also be viable, assuming you're good enough to pull it off.
The game should be designed such that a mix of tactics is the best way to go. Aggro shouldn't be all-powerful and nor should stealth, but I don't think any part of the game should ever be built so that the solution to a problem must be aggro or must be stealth.
The Dev team has already decided.
There will be no gagdets at the start of the game. They will be big floating icons throughout the map that either the merc or Spy can get. Whoever gets it first, get the gadget that goes with whatever "pick-up' was gotten.
Think of it like Disk Hunt, but instead of Disks, it's differant gadgets... and you can only have one gadget at a time. When you pick up another one, whatever gadget you had is dropped where you picked up the new one.
Seriously...
Nah, I'm just joking.
But seriously.. I'm not kidding.
Lol, got you... it was a joke.
Actually, i'm serious.
HAH! Fooled you.
On second thought, it does sound like a start for some sort of new gamemode.
OOOH! Me likes. Could be used for Death Match.
I haven't read the whole topic, but isn't it just enough punishment if you are out of the whole game for 10 seconds, and out of the area for like 20? Suicides only happen when one spy is out of lives or both die at the same time. It's not a game-defining issue. Coming back 20 seconds later (meaning the objective you are guarding is hacked) with less than full gadgets means the spy strategy would be to take out both mercs one time so they don't have any gadgets left.