ok my idea is this :
a gadget that's in design of the modem from the mode sabotage ( for those who remember it from Pt).
Use : Be planted on a wall. Can only be equipped one per person because then you would have spies
opening doors everywhere.
Function : Enables the spy to open doors in a more subtle manner. Its range includes that the Gadget can only be planted on a outer wall close to the door panel. Device can hack panel through wall.
Trade off : Just like a sticky cam ,a Merc can detect it on Emf and shoot it out.
other notes :
Hacking in progress warning: Yet to be determined.
I like this idea, the way I see it, it would add depth without throwing off balance...
where's the depth in a gadget with that little use? oO
I can has proximity EMP device?
Make it affect all electrical equipment in the area near it while it's active. Including lights and the mercs hud etc. It should have to be placed by a standing spy and only effect things on the same height as it in a certain range. (I.e, you can't put one in a tall vent and effect everything)
this idea is total bullshit.
instead of adding new bs gadgets that overlap with others (or have that little use that no1 will take them), how about giving snares a new interaction-with-hacking-panels feature, for instance: snare on/close to hacking panel randomly triggers the hacking message etc
remote hacking should not be possible via some gadget, but via a new type of objective/hacking panel.
Snares would be OP.
Also, maybe you wouldn't want a snare to make much noise while it's hacking a panel.
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 04:41:44 PM
this idea is total bullshit.
instead of adding new bs gadgets that overlap with others (or have that little use that no1 will take them), how about giving snares a new interaction-with-hacking-panels feature, for instance: snare on/close to hacking panel randomly triggers the hacking message etc
remote hacking should not be possible via some gadget, but via a new type of objective/hacking panel.
its not doing anything Unbalanced... it just allows the spy to hack the door without being shot in the head.
but for those diehard aggro spies they can hack the panel manually. they can do so. and I already explained the trade off.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 01, 2008, 05:26:28 PM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 04:41:44 PM
this idea is total bullshit.
instead of adding new bs gadgets that overlap with others (or have that little use that no1 will take them), how about giving snares a new interaction-with-hacking-panels feature, for instance: snare on/close to hacking panel randomly triggers the hacking message etc
remote hacking should not be possible via some gadget, but via a new type of objective/hacking panel.
its not doing anything Unbalanced... it just allows the spy to hack the door without being shot in the head.
but for those diehard aggro spies they can hack the panel manually. they can do so. and I already explained the trade off.
This is understood, but what's the point of wasting a gadget slot for 1 piece of eq.?
Quote from: Westfall on September 01, 2008, 05:29:01 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 01, 2008, 05:26:28 PM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 04:41:44 PM
this idea is total bullshit.
instead of adding new bs gadgets that overlap with others (or have that little use that no1 will take them), how about giving snares a new interaction-with-hacking-panels feature, for instance: snare on/close to hacking panel randomly triggers the hacking message etc
remote hacking should not be possible via some gadget, but via a new type of objective/hacking panel.
its not doing anything Unbalanced... it just allows the spy to hack the door without being shot in the head.
but for those diehard aggro spies they can hack the panel manually. they can do so. and I already explained the trade off.
This is understood, but what's the point of wasting a gadget slot for 1 piece of eq.?
The point is its another gadget to the spies arsenal and can be used as a diversion.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 01, 2008, 06:01:20 PM
Quote from: Westfall on September 01, 2008, 05:29:01 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on September 01, 2008, 05:26:28 PM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 04:41:44 PM
this idea is total bullshit.
instead of adding new bs gadgets that overlap with others (or have that little use that no1 will take them), how about giving snares a new interaction-with-hacking-panels feature, for instance: snare on/close to hacking panel randomly triggers the hacking message etc
remote hacking should not be possible via some gadget, but via a new type of objective/hacking panel.
its not doing anything Unbalanced... it just allows the spy to hack the door without being shot in the head.
but for those diehard aggro spies they can hack the panel manually. they can do so. and I already explained the trade off.
This is understood, but what's the point of wasting a gadget slot for 1 piece of eq.?
The point is its another gadget to the spies arsenal and can be used as a diversion.
I'm agreeing with Rambo on this one. This gadget has only one tactical diversion which could be accomplished with camo on another spy. For only 1 piece? Needs to be better thought out. Just like camnet should have a time limit instead of infinite eye in the sky.
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
Your attitude is shitty.
Timelimit on Hawkeye would be good (refilling with time, ofc).
Also, how about adding the Remote hacker to the spy bullet as an alt. mode?
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
Surprising coming from someone who focuses his knowledge on "balance." Disputing a time limit on camnet or some sort of battery power on it shows just how much you don't know about balance. Even the SS needs to refill...camnet is the only infinite eq...and who does it go to? The overpowered mercs. I wish ppl were consistent with their thoughts on balance. Obviously some are just all talk.
This isn't the place for this discussion though as we are focused on Agent's idea, which has the flaw of getting one use and wasting a slot.
How about 3-5 uses + emp on a 5 meter radius?
Emp would help set up traps for spies, since mercs can't use visions.
Having it hack panels would be a nice thing (like having a third spy that only hacks the panels)
camnet can easily be balanced by the right placement (which zed is easily capable of), there's simply no need to nerf the gadget itself (especially not in this way cause the pros flip through the rooms only very quickly anyways). besides, camo will get a boost and camnet will probably loose special visions.
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 08:07:44 PM
camnet can easily be balanced by the right placement (which zed is easily capable of), there's simply no need to nerf the gadget itself (especially not in this way cause the pros flip through the rooms only very quickly anyways). besides, camo will get a boost and camnet will probably loose special visions.
I forgot you were a pro and got paid to play the game. Right placement is fine and expected. Duration should be nerfed because sometimes you don't just flip through quickly. Sometimes the best way to expose is to sit and wait, which I myself have encountered more times than the usual flipping through. Even with loss of visions and a boosted camo, there should still be a time limit or battery supply. Infinite gadget makes NO sense, especially if it is as powerful as a camera over the entire room.
so, the new counter against active camnet would be sitting around in a blind spot waiting till the draining battery forces the merc to do something else?? sounds like fantastic gameplay for me...
this idea is just as bad as making camo drain less energy while not moving: it helps the noobs and hurts the pros (pros wouldn't waste time waiting for the camnet battery to run out while noobs play stealth slowly anyways). oh and if you don't like infinte gadgets, what about hbs?
I'm of the opinion that HBS should drain the gun's battery.
Generally, I don't think material should be removed, but the more I think about it the more I think camnet needs to just go.
I think HBS and Camnet should be inf.
I just do.
That's all.
I don't mind this idea, but tbh i can't see anyone taking it over bullets / hbs etc.
I think if were going to add a "new" gadget it should be the pistol EMP thing, from co-op. That was the best gadget idea weve had. It would take two to use it properly, and encourage teamplay. I think it should be a compulsory gadget. Spies should be shown on EMF when using it and should not be able to move while using it. It should have a maximum range, so that it cant be used from one side of the map to the other, however the range should still allow cam-nets to be "hit" with it. It should silently temporarily disable electrical devices (cameras, cam-net, spy traps etc, but not mines) but only when the EMP thing is activated and pointed at the electrical object you wish to disable. When something has been disabled a "Security Failure" message should be shown in the mercs hud.
Suggestions? I know this has already been discussed but id like to bring it up again.
PS: Sorry for kindof hijacking the thread.
once again, no need for more fancy gadgets. if you think the emp pistol idea is good, just give the sticky shocker this ability.
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 07:38:00 PM
once again, no need for more fancy gadgets. if you think the emp pistol idea is good, just give the sticky shocker this ability.
Yeh thats what i meant. And Westfall is right. Camnet, even with the standard vision is to OP. The battery of the Camnet should be dependant on distance. The closer you are the less battery it takes up, while the furthur you are the faster it drains. EMP'ing camnets with the gun should disable it, as should chaff. Standard shooting it shouldn't though, otherwise Camnet becomes to weak. Atleast with the EMP thing two spies will be needed to disable it, and one spy will be stationary.
it's only op on some maps where it's placed that it can basically see everything (factory, polar). camnet is totally balanced on other maps like club, orph, etc.
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 09:00:12 PM
it's only op on some maps where it's placed that it can basically see everything (factory, polar). camnet is totally balanced on other maps like club, orph, etc.
but totally annoying how tiny they made the laser on it, makes me wanna break the damn thing :/.
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 09:00:12 PM
it's only op on some maps where it's placed that it can basically see everything (factory, polar). camnet is totally balanced on other maps like club, orph, etc.
I know what you mean but i still think its OP because you cant disable it or anything.
it's balanced because it's limited by the fovs of the cams (so there are always the same blind spots) and the merc using it has to waste time and stand still (which kinda makes him an open target blind for his own sector). on most maps, backpack > camnet easily, and with spytraps getting a little boost things could look different, too.
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 09:00:12 PM
it's only op on some maps where it's placed that it can basically see everything (factory, polar). camnet is totally balanced on other maps like club, orph, etc.
Camnet is "balanced" on orphanage? If by "balanced," you mean useless, sure.
Balanced or not, camnet makes gameplay shitty.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 03, 2008, 06:46:28 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 09:00:12 PM
it's only op on some maps where it's placed that it can basically see everything (factory, polar). camnet is totally balanced on other maps like club, orph, etc.
Camnet is "balanced" on orphanage? If by "balanced," you mean useless, sure.
Balanced or not, camnet makes gameplay shitty.
I do agree. Camnet should be gone, but it seems like its staying. Its hilarious that he said it was balanced on orph
Quote from: Rambo on September 02, 2008, 12:47:24 AM
so, the new counter against active camnet would be sitting around in a blind spot waiting till the draining battery forces the merc to do something else?? sounds like fantastic gameplay for me...
this idea is just as bad as making camo drain less energy while not moving: it helps the noobs and hurts the pros (pros wouldn't waste time waiting for the camnet battery to run out while noobs play stealth slowly anyways). oh and if you don't like infinte gadgets, what about hbs?
I totally forgot about hbs. I'm pretty sure the devs were going to do something about that tho. Should camnet be silent when switching back and forth to ensure that the spy is completely unaware of its use and have to pay attention to its outline? And making camo drain less while not moving was actually quite a good idea. If you want to consider bad ideas, think about your eq loss thread for deaths...right, pure brilliance there. I'm saying no gadget should be infinite....this does include hbs. It just doesn't make sense. Instead ppl whore both items....im also not saying that the energy drained can't refill itself (like current SS). You just have to be good on your timing in using certain gadgets....they shouldn't last forever.
Flashlight batteries should need to be replaced.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on September 03, 2008, 07:44:01 AM
Flashlight batteries should need to be replaced.
if thats the case , then flares would be of use.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on September 03, 2008, 07:44:01 AM
Flashlight batteries should need to be replaced.
I'm not sure this is a big issue in CT though. More often than not when the mercs have his headlight on all the time its easy for the spy to locate them, and judge jumping on them easier. That could just be me though. I see your logic.
And whoever said HBS should drain battery is a god. +1 for them. +1 for the Camo idea too. Thing that annoys me is we get no word from the devs as to whether they are considering putting some of our ideas in, so they just get talked about all the time.
We're not in the stage of that yet. It's got no use to talk about the color of a car in the motor-design-phase. But I tag ideas that I, personally, find interesting.
@westfall: i don't think that my eq system suggestion is perfect, but im 100% sure that there is an imbalance. and no, making camo drain more energy while moving is a very very bad idea. on the camnet sound: i guess it should only make a noise while being moved (but i'm not sure about that).
@spekkio: if you think camnet is useless on orph, you obviously never played solidus&snakebit on that map.
@liquid: using the flashlight already has severe drawbacks like giving away one's position (and fov and not being in special visions) and is one of the very basic tools. it would be crappy gameplay is the counter vs flashlight would be just camping and waiting instead of moving quickly out of range/behind cover.
Quote from: frvge on September 03, 2008, 12:18:33 PM
We're not in the stage of that yet. It's got no use to talk about the color of a car in the motor-design-phase. But I tag ideas that I, personally, find interesting.
Ok great, just so long as we know you guys are taking note ;D.
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
@westfall: i don't think that my eq system suggestion is perfect, but im 100% sure that there is an imbalance. and no, making camo drain more energy while moving is a very very bad idea. on the camnet sound: i guess it should only make a noise while being moved (but i'm not sure about that).
@spekkio: if you think camnet is useless on orph, you obviously never played solidus&snakebit on that map.
@liquid: using the flashlight already has severe drawbacks like giving away one's position (and fov and not being in special visions) and is one of the very basic tools. it would be crappy gameplay is the counter vs flashlight would be just camping and waiting instead of moving quickly out of range/behind cover.
Your eq system is stupid. I'm sorry but its so unrealistic, and punishes for dying, which is a punishment in itself. Not trying to be mean but I think you're the only person that actually likes the idea, and if thats the case you know its never gonna happen. Refill boxes for merc, and thinking about it, do spies really need refill boxes. I mean, they dont run out of EQ that often, and its easy enough to get around without any. The only time i run out of nades, is if im covering someone else / aggroing.
if you believe it or not, there are skilled players that don't die that regularily like you do (and would die even less often if they wouldn't run out of eq). afaik you're also a players using heartbeat sensor and not spy bullets, so at least you never run out of recon.
tbh, i won't care much about this kinda big imbalance in the current eq system any more because you guys must be blind not to see the problem with 5 nades compared to 25, and i'm just gonna use a way around it: suiciding/teamkilling as merc for eq, and flash-camo-whatever-hbs as spy.
so about related stuff: why does the amount of every gadget have to be 4 or 5? how could a balanced refill system look like? => eq thread.
back on thread topic: i suggest either letting this thread die or discussion a new emp/hack ability for the sticky shocker.
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 04:54:14 PM
if you believe it or not, there are skilled players that don't die that regularily like you do (and would die even less often if they wouldn't run out of eq). afaik you're also a players using heartbeat sensor and not spy bullets, so at least you never run out of recon.
tbh, i won't care much about this kinda big imbalance in the current eq system any more because you guys must be blind not to see the problem with 5 nades compared to 25, and i'm just gonna use a way around it: suiciding/teamkilling as merc for eq, and flash-camo-whatever-hbs as spy.
so about related stuff: why does the amount of every gadget have to be 4 or 5? how could a balanced refill system look like? => eq thread.
back on thread topic: i suggest either letting this thread die or discussion a new emp/hack ability for the sticky shocker.
Enough with the calling me nooobbb. Wasn't necessary, i already know i suck ;D. This thread contains all our ideas about the refill boxes aswell. Spy eq boxes arent needed as you hardly ever run out of stuff. Merc refill boxes are perfect, and simple and get the job done. Place them well and its fine.
Quote@spekkio: if you think camnet is useless on orph, you obviously never played solidus&snakebit on that map.
I have, and I still think it's useless. I don't have to think it pwnzers just because Solidus/Snakebit take an item on a certain map.
i'm usually using double-bp on orph, but camnet can come in quite handy because it helps you to look into the ceiling in some important spots. it's also quite strong because with the heavy rain eax-superhearing doesn't really work that well and if you're opponents use snares and make use of many spy-only routes, you are kinda screwed.
actually this is the ideal example of a balanced gadget: several really good players have several opinions about it's use.
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.
besides what if ur moving in on the merc using camnet wanting to break his neck and now with that dumb idea u gotta count in ur head to see if u can attack him or not, thats bs..
if ur arguement is that mercs back up to corners when using camnet then we should fix that, not the gadget, see my point?
maybe we should make a camnet that is like virtual reality to the merc, where if he wants to turn the camera he has to turn his whole boddy, not just press a button that way, the merc wont be able to put his back to the wall with camnet to save his ass.and Agent, nah ur idea isnt that good, like rambo said its just unecesary and taking up space, we all love this game how it is, maybe just adding new functions to same gadgets is better, like alarm snare should activate near by alarms, not only affect mercs noise sensor.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
like alarm snare should activate near by alarms, not only affect mercs noise sensor.
Lol it does, if you shoot it at the alarm. Lawl.
but it could also trigger hacking alerts at random times if placed next to a hacking panel =)
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.
Its funny because you actually don't make a legitimate argument at all. Its not because I've had trouble with mercs using camnet. The time limit is so that the piece of eq. isn't infinite. If you read through the thread you would have seen that. The same should go for hbs.
Quote
besides what if ur moving in on the merc using camnet wanting to break his neck and now with that dumb idea u gotta count in ur head to see if u can attack him or not, thats bs..
Thats not BS. Thats a risk you're taking. It could happen at any moment when the merc turns off camnet anyways. Its a chance thing that takes a gamble. If it turns off because the battery drained, then its just bad luck on your part....but really it would be practically the same as a merc switching it off and you standing right next to him. I just don't want the gadget infinite.
Quote from: Rambo on September 03, 2008, 11:01:28 PM
i'm usually using double-bp on orph, but camnet can come in quite handy because it helps you to look into the ceiling in some important spots. it's also quite strong because with the heavy rain eax-superhearing doesn't really work that well and if you're opponents use snares and make use of many spy-only routes, you are kinda screwed.
actually this is the ideal example of a balanced gadget: several really good players have several opinions about it's use.
But it's still gay.
Quote from: Westfall on September 04, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Its funny because you actually don't make a legitimate argument at all. Its not because I've had trouble with mercs using camnet. The time limit is so that the piece of eq. isn't infinite. If you read through the thread you would have seen that. The same should go for hbs.
so your point is that something being infinite is bad because.... it's infinite???
basically balancing camnet is pretty easy: have enough counters that are good for intense gameplay. for instance, some routes not covered by camnet, vulnerable/immobile/blind merc while using it etc. the whole problem on maps like factory is that camnet basically covers everything and that there are some central save points to camp with it (corridor B mainly). having camnet drain some battery power doesn't help shit because against good players you only cycle through the cams very quickly because you have to be on the move anyways.
Quote from: Rambo on September 04, 2008, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: Westfall on September 04, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Its funny because you actually don't make a legitimate argument at all. Its not because I've had trouble with mercs using camnet. The time limit is so that the piece of eq. isn't infinite. If you read through the thread you would have seen that. The same should go for hbs.
so your point is that something being infinite is bad because.... it's infinite???
basically balancing camnet is pretty easy: have enough counters that are good for intense gameplay. for instance, some routes not covered by camnet, vulnerable/immobile/blind merc while using it etc. the whole problem on maps like factory is that camnet basically covers everything and that there are some central save points to camp with it (corridor B mainly). having camnet drain some battery power doesn't help shit because against good players you only cycle through the cams very quickly because you have to be on the move anyways.
Or you can just get your ass against a wall and use it forever.
Quoteso your point is that something being infinite is bad because.... it's infinite???
Infinite camnet is gay because a merc will usually sit in a safe spot and continually use it while the other merc hunts the spies (don't give me the "balance the maps" thing, there are going to be safe spots in any map). The only counter to it is to say fuck it and try to use the spy's speed to keep the mercs on the move. Either way, the mercs have an easier time of it because they know where you are.
It also looks like a stubby penis.
Hence, camnet is gay.
yes, i'll give you the balance-the-maps thingy. there will be safe spots on every map, but camnet get's only a pain in the ass if it covers too much of the map (factory, river mall, polar base) and if there's a central camping point providing access to most if not all key points (like corridor b on factory or elevator on museum). another problem with camnet is that most areas are way too bright, that camo is too weak and that one doesn't have to move the cam in most locations to see the important stuff once it's in position (thus allowing very quick controlling of a huge area of the map). fix that stuff and you have a very balanced gadget that enhances the depth tremendously.
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2008, 02:10:04 AM
yes, i'll give you the balance-the-maps thingy. there will be safe spots on every map, but camnet get's only a pain in the ass if it covers too much of the map (factory, river mall, polar base) and if there's a central camping point providing access to most if not all key points (like corridor b on factory or elevator on museum). another problem with camnet is that most areas are way too bright, that camo is too weak and that one doesn't have to move the cam in most locations to see the important stuff once it's in position (thus allowing very quick controlling of a huge area of the map). fix that stuff and you have a very balanced gadget that enhances the depth tremendously.
For one, there can be a central camping spot no matter where you are on ANY map. Back to wall...thats it. Being able to flip through and tell your mate where to go all the time makes the gadget overpowering AND boring to the game. Placement will always be a key point, but what retard doesn't know that shit? I'm sick of the "camo's weak." The only way its weak is when you get caught with it. If you're moving and the outline is seen....well...stop fuckin moving and you won't be seen. This is why camnet is good...it exposes those using the gadget poorly. Without visions and a battery (time limit) you can't see the camo on EMF and you might not be able to find someone while flipping through. The only way a "pro" flips through and takes off really quickly is because his mate is a noob. If you're playing with a good player, you can sit there most of the time and just talk to one another. Fixing your 2 options doesn't add depth to shit. Rather it makes the user still able to just sit and stare through the camera. I don't know what more you're looking for here, but camnet being infinite might as well be a hack. Same shit goes for hbs. Most "pros" (again, you don't get paid to play the fucking game, so there is nothing professional about it) whip out hbs quickly and 360 it quickly and put it away because they are always on the move, so there really isn't any reason for it to be infinite. I'm kind of done with the whole arguing of this shit. If you're still blind to the reasons as to why camnet shouldn't be infinite...well...I guess you can't always convince people what's right and what's wrong just because you said it. You can only sit back in awe and watch the retardation unfold.
you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite. either remove it from the game or balance it via placement of cams/shadows/map layout.
you're right about hbs, letting it drain energy doesn't make much difference for good players. i can only think of 2 occasions it might change something at high levels:
-trying to go into camo directly after using it
-using hbs to time a quickcam camper-style
so yeah, hbs should drain energy. but i guess if that suggestion came from me no1 would agree on it cause it makes life for noobs way harder.
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2008, 03:47:03 PM
you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite. either remove it from the game or balance it via placement of cams/shadows/map layout.
you're right about hbs, letting it drain energy doesn't make much difference for good players. i can only think of 2 occasions it might change something at high levels:
-trying to go into camo directly after using it
-using hbs to time a quickcam camper-style
so yeah, hbs should drain energy. but i guess if that suggestion came from me no1 would agree on it cause it makes life for noobs way harder.
Firing cams doesn't take any battery power either.
Well a lot of ideas are mentioned here but how do you implement them in the game without making them useless or making the game imbalanced????
Hbs + power drain is a useless combo. Most good players don't use it for long. People usually turn it on fast , check things around themselves and then turn it off . How will power drain effect that ?
Well you can make it last for 3 seconds only , but that will be absurd because new players will never be able to use it well and this will also encourage the fast usage of that item...... Which is imho not the point of it.
Camp with hbs + Cam will be impossible you think ? But you can always switch between gadget 1 and gadget 2 to prevent the drain of energy , can't you ?
The only balance to the gadget IMHO is to weaken it a bit , but not by power drain , but by making the Scan Wave take more time + not showing the target on the radar all the time .. ( Only make it possible to see the location where the target was for 0.2 sec and make the wave take 4-5 sec ) < I am not sure of time because , once again , it will need balancing.
If the Camnets gets a power drain , it will get weakened a bit , but it will still remain a powerful tool , one might say even an imbalanced one . I agree that on some maps it is very imbalanced , BUT if you haven't noticed it is only imbalanced on HUGE MAPS ( Factory , Rivermall , Polar base ) . If there was no camnet on those maps ( Excluding polar base ) , it would be almost impossible for the merc to win the map . There are only 2 mercs and it's impossible for 2 of them to check 3 huge sectors all the time . The spy would be able to do his job the DA style .( Sneak - Hack - Run - Hide 100 times all over again )
Camnet prevents the Sneak-Hack-Run-Hide scenario on huge maps and i think that it is not a very bad thing. Camnet might be imbalanced on those maps , but on the other hand mercs are already weakened on those maps by the sheer amount of space they need to check so the map becomes more balanced with it.
Like Spekkio said Camnet is almost crap when it comes to dealing with small rooms , but its not totally useless in my opinion . In my experience it is not so bad to prevent the spy from hacking the ND for additional 1-2 sec than to have 2 more nades + 2 more mines . ( There is the good old suicide for more gadgets )
In addition the main point of the Camnet is to LOCATE the spy , not to track him . Locating will probably be still not so hard . Although Power Drain will make tracking him almost impossible , but than the Sneak-hack-run-hide tactic will be impossible or at the very least very hard to counter. In DA the info could be destroyed , but in CT you can hack the objective 1-2 sec and it will remain , so in one way it could get even worse than DA.
I think that hbs + power drain is useless .
I think that Camnet + power drain has it pros and cons but in general it's a bad idea.
I really like the idea however I don't think anyone would use up the gadget space for something limited to doors.
i fully agree with snakebit.
simply play around with camnet placement to get it right on every map (&remove special visions).
regarding hbs, i'd change two things:
-make the merc's position only light up when the scanning wave runs over it, rate ~ 1Hz
-make scanned mercs also appear on mate's radar
Quote from: Snakebit. on September 05, 2008, 06:24:03 PM
Hbs + power drain is a useless combo. Most good players don't use it for long. People usually turn it on fast , check things around themselves and then turn it off . How will power drain effect that ?
Well you can make it last for 3 seconds only , but that will be absurd because new players will never be able to use it well and this will also encourage the fast usage of that item...... Which is imho not the point of it.
I disagree. Using the HBS for even a short period of time takes one shot off the SS...that's one shot less you have to defend yourself if you get caught.
QuoteCamp with hbs + Cam will be impossible you think ? But you can always switch between gadget 1 and gadget 2 to prevent the drain of energy , can't you ?
Make it so that HBS won't activate if the energy meter isn't full like camo. Problem solved.
QuoteThe only balance to the gadget IMHO is to weaken it a bit , but not by power drain , but by making the Scan Wave take more time + not showing the target on the radar all the time .. ( Only make it possible to see the location where the target was for 0.2 sec and make the wave take 4-5 sec ) < I am not sure of time because , once again , it will need balancing.
I don't like the idea of a target sometimes appearing on radar. That's what happens with spy bullets currently, and it's excessively annoying.
QuoteIf the Camnets gets a power drain , it will get weakened a bit , but it will still remain a powerful tool , one might say even an imbalanced one . I agree that on some maps it is very imbalanced , BUT if you haven't noticed it is only imbalanced on HUGE MAPS ( Factory , Rivermall , Polar base ).
I think camnet is imbalanced because the mercs can use it indefinitely and there is no direct counter to it on the spy side short of running around. More importantly, I don't like the fact that it allows the mercs to play a more campy playstyle, which makes them a lot less susceptible to ambushes, which in turn makes them a lot less susceptible to being incapacitated.
QuoteIf there was no camnet on those maps ( Excluding polar base ) , it would be almost impossible for the merc to win the map .
I strongly disagree. Spy traps are very useful on those maps, although they have their own issues as well. Even with just double backpack + mines, it's very possible to win on those maps.
And really, this isn't any problem that can't be solved by upping the passive defenses in the map rather than having the merc operate some of the cameras.
QuoteThere are only 2 mercs and it's impossible for 2 of them to check 3 huge sectors all the time . The spy would be able to do his job the DA style .( Sneak - Hack - Run - Hide 100 times all over again )
Welcome to the current state of CT.
QuoteCamnet prevents the Sneak-Hack-Run-Hide scenario on huge maps and i think that it is not a very bad thing. Camnet might be imbalanced on those maps , but on the other hand mercs are already weakened on those maps by the sheer amount of space they need to check so the map becomes more balanced with it.
Camnet only takes the sneak and hide out of that strat, so it boils down to just run-hack. The only map that's too big for mercs to cover effectively is Vertigo.
QuoteLike Spekkio said Camnet is almost crap when it comes to dealing with small rooms , but its not totally useless in my opinion . In my experience it is not so bad to prevent the spy from hacking the ND for additional 1-2 sec than to have 2 more nades + 2 more mines . ( There is the good old suicide for more gadgets )
Yes but this is where spy traps become more useful than camnet.
Quote from: Rambo on September 04, 2008, 03:56:09 PM
but it could also trigger hacking alerts at random times if placed next to a hacking panel =)
see rambo is helpin me here, thats what i meant :P
my idea to fix when mercs put their back to the walls is the following:
"maybe we should make a camnet that is like virtual reality to the merc, where if he wants to turn the camera he has to turn his whole body, not just press a button that way, the merc wont be able to put his back to the wall with camnet to save his ass."
hope you get my idea, plz let me know what you think for that fix i came up with, if u have a better idea that is not a time limit plz post! reply
Quote from: Westfall on September 04, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.
Its funny because you actually don't make a legitimate argument at all. Its not because I've had trouble with mercs using camnet. The time limit is so that the piece of eq. isn't infinite. If you read through the thread you would have seen that. The same should go for hbs.
Quote
besides what if ur moving in on the merc using camnet wanting to break his neck and now with that dumb idea u gotta count in ur head to see if u can attack him or not, thats bs..
Thats not BS. Thats a risk you're taking. It could happen at any moment when the merc turns off camnet anyways. Its a chance thing that takes a gamble. If it turns off because the battery drained, then its just bad luck on your part....but really it would be practically the same as a merc switching it off and you standing right next to him. I just don't want the gadget infinite.
its funny because your idea is so gay.
so your sayin there is no reason for timed camnet, its just childish naggin of urs because u just dont want it to be like that.
bull shit, u must have a reason u just dont wanna say thats why i supposed u were having trouble with mercs using camnet.
plus its a lame idea anyway, most of PS comunity wants a game that ubi was never able to polish off, a more realistic game.
putting a gay time limit on a device that in real life wouldnt have timelimit (or at least not in seconds or even minutes) is dumb
also the flashlight battery idea i think is lame i mean, how often do u change batteries on ur flashlight, give me a fuckin break or just buy a new fuckin flashlight lol.
spies take too many risks as it is already having to count on top of them all is simply unrealistic, lame, and gay.
QuoteI disagree. Using the HBS for even a short period of time takes one shot off the SS...that's one shot less you have to defend yourself if you get caught.
i don't think that one shot makes any difference, especially with a better mouse implementation and better netcode. though it would definitely make a difference for using camo, and according to your suggestion, for further hbs use.
QuoteMake it so that HBS won't activate if the energy meter isn't full like camo. Problem solved.
this idea is really something we should look into. i don't have time to think about it properly now, i'll come back to that later.
QuoteI don't like the idea of a target sometimes appearing on radar. That's what happens with spy bullets currently, and it's excessively annoying.
i have to agree, it's really fucking annoying that you can't rely on it. guess bullets should also show static mercs.
QuoteI strongly disagree. Spy traps are very useful on those maps, although they have their own issues as well.
spytraps are almost a wasted slot against skilled opponents having chaff with them (there are a few very lame spots but that's about it; besides, they overlap with poison mines 50% of the time). i don't think they add much to the gameplay, i'd rather see phosphorous nades have a comeback instead of spytraps in a changed way.
QuoteEven with just double backpack + mines, it's very possible to win on those maps.
yes it's possible to win with double bp, but don't tell me patroulling is effective on those maps. all you do is take wild guesses based on tons of experience on a certain map, and the rest is even more camping a central spot and starting to run as soon as you get a security breach/noise/objective hacked somewhere.
QuoteI think camnet is imbalanced because the mercs can use it indefinitely and there is no direct counter to it on the spy side short of running around. More importantly, I don't like the fact that it allows the mercs to play a more campy playstyle, which makes them a lot less susceptible to ambushes, which in turn makes them a lot less susceptible to being incapacitated.
yes there are some direct counters to it: moving around the cams' covered area (which should be possible on a balanced map), making use of/attacking the static merc, etc.
once again, i don't wanna play a game that cycles solely around incapacitating the merc.
QuoteAnd really, this isn't any problem that can't be solved by upping the passive defenses in the map rather than having the merc operate some of the cameras.
generally there's a lack of passive security on ct maps. some ground between pt security castles and ct runaround playgrounds should be found for ps.
Quotespytraps are almost a wasted slot against skilled opponents having chaff with them (there are a few very lame spots but that's about it; besides, they overlap with poison mines 50% of the time). i don't think they add much to the gameplay, i'd rather see phosphorous nades have a comeback instead of spytraps in a changed way.
Spy traps are still useful, although I do think that they need to be changed. Namely, I think the ability to instantly remove them if you're with your partner needs to be taken out, and chaff shouldn't work through walls.
Quoteyes it's possible to win with double bp, but don't tell me patroulling is effective on those maps. all you do is take wild guesses based on tons of experience on a certain map, and the rest is even more camping a central spot and starting to run as soon as you get a security breach/noise/objective hacked somewhere.
Factory: I suppose no one's figured out since the tourney that if you stand in MH right in front of the vent you can tell where the spies are going from spawn and act accordingly? No noise on reticle = B/C. Noise on reticle = he fell down underneath. Spy pops out from vent up top and you shoot him. Not very hard to figure out.
As for Mall, the entire map is a bottleneck, and you can go check the holigram manually if you're stuck. The map is actually a lot more fun without camnet.
Anyway, you're right that patrolling is not as effective as camnet, and that's the point. Mercs win the vast majority of the time, and in a balanced game the winrate would be closer to 50/50.
Quoteonce again, i don't wanna play a game that cycles solely around incapacitating the merc.
I hate to tell you, but CT already relies on incapacitating the mercs to win. Sure, the first objective or two you might be able to get away with running around and keeping the mercs away, but eventually the area of coverage is going to get small enough where you're going to have to take out a merc to win.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 06, 2008, 01:03:39 AM
Quote from: Westfall on September 04, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.
Its funny because you actually don't make a legitimate argument at all. Its not because I've had trouble with mercs using camnet. The time limit is so that the piece of eq. isn't infinite. If you read through the thread you would have seen that. The same should go for hbs.
Quote
besides what if ur moving in on the merc using camnet wanting to break his neck and now with that dumb idea u gotta count in ur head to see if u can attack him or not, thats bs..
Thats not BS. Thats a risk you're taking. It could happen at any moment when the merc turns off camnet anyways. Its a chance thing that takes a gamble. If it turns off because the battery drained, then its just bad luck on your part....but really it would be practically the same as a merc switching it off and you standing right next to him. I just don't want the gadget infinite.
its funny because your idea is so gay.
so your sayin there is no reason for timed camnet, its just childish naggin of urs because u just dont want it to be like that.
bull shit, u must have a reason u just dont wanna say thats why i supposed u were having trouble with mercs using camnet.
plus its a lame idea anyway, most of PS comunity wants a game that ubi was never able to polish off, a more realistic game.
putting a gay time limit on a device that in real life wouldnt have timelimit (or at least not in seconds or even minutes) is dumb
also the flashlight battery idea i think is lame i mean, how often do u change batteries on ur flashlight, give me a fuckin break or just buy a new fuckin flashlight lol.
spies take too many risks as it is already having to count on top of them all is simply unrealistic, lame, and gay.
You should seriously read the thread before you post some shit. I really don't see how you're going to try and bash me because you don't know how to play the game or what balance means. The idea is "gay" is your justification. Really intellectual input from someone who doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. Don't flame because you have no real valid input. If you have nothing useful to say, then shut your hole. We don't need the amateur input in this manner. That shit can stay with Ubisoft. k thks bai
P.S. I didn't say shit about battery's in a flashlight. You're obviously just proving why some people should just stay quiet.
I don't have to touch on anything really since Spekkio has some actual knowledge of whats he's talking about. Oh shit, Rambo knows some shit too...oh shit, Snakebit too. As for the Roberto character, please....
I can respect some valid input, but when something is "gay"...you're not really worth the forum's time. Realism isn't what you're always going for. If you want to stay on the realistic motive....a wireless connection to several cameras implemented throughout a building...oh, and its on your arm. Yea...really realistic. And you're saying that shit would just work all of the time? Nothing to charge up ever. At all. HENCE THE BALANCE of it just recharging on its own while you're not looking at it. Kind of like rebooting.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 06, 2008, 12:52:56 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 04, 2008, 03:56:09 PM
but it could also trigger hacking alerts at random times if placed next to a hacking panel =)
see rambo is helpin me here, thats what i meant :P
my idea to fix when mercs put their back to the walls is the following:
"maybe we should make a camnet that is like virtual reality to the merc, where if he wants to turn the camera he has to turn his whole body, not just press a button that way, the merc wont be able to put his back to the wall with camnet to save his ass."
hope you get my idea, plz let me know what you think for that fix i came up with, if u have a better idea that is not a time limit plz post! reply
While I don't think the idea is "gay"...it does has its perks. Like removing the back-to-wall. If you want your realism....well, not even close. Camnet was fine with the fix of no visions. Its still too powerful because it can be camped with in areas that spies might not be able to access. Unfortunately....the camnet is an eye in the sky....not sitting on the floor. It takes a simple control to move it left or right. Also, if the camera is on the mercs wrist, why would he have to turn his entire body to view areas of a room? Camnet doesn't need a fix in aspect of its viewing. It needs a fix as to how long it can be used. NOTHING lasts forever. For balancing purposes, a powered camnet that has energy drain seems very fitting if you want a proper fix of an overpowering tool.
I DISAGREE WITH YOU WESTFALL.
I NEVER SAID U PROPOSED THE IDEA OF FLASHLIGHT BATTERIES..
AND I ONLY SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE UR IDEA IS GAY"
CAUSE U SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE U DONT MAKE A VALID ARGUMENT" WHICH WE BOTH KNOW NEITHER OF US ACTUALLY LAUGHED SO, I JUST DID IT TO GET YOU BACK FOR TRYING TO BE A FLAMING SMART ASS.
WELL TO BE HONEST I DID LAUGH WHEN I SAID "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE UR IDEA IS GAY" BECAUSE ITS A STUPID REPLY AND BELIEVE ME I KNOW IT, BUT SO IS UR NOT EVEN FUNNY TO U, LAME SMART ASS REPLY "ITS FUNNY BECAUSE U DONT MAKE A VALID ARGUMENT" SO YA JUST DROP THE WHOLE INTELECTUAL THING U GOT GOING ON WHERE U THINK UR THE BOSS OF THE FORUM
AND JUST GET TO YOUR POINTS OF VIEW WITHOUTH BEING UNNECESSARILY MEAN, OR ELSE EXPECT UNNECESSARILY MEAN/DUMB RESPONSES.
AS SAID BY RAMBO "you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite."
AND BY ME, you never really gave ur reason why u want time limit on camnet, ur just naggin like a lil kid saying its not because u had a hard time with mercs using camnet and, and then repeating that to me sayin im the one having trouble with camnet even though i never proposed timelimit.
lol dude comon, oh and my idea about the merc having to turn his body to turn the cam on camnet is actually more of an explination to why it happens in case it would get implemented in the game for balancing issues, so its a fair fix, and it also has a fair explination as to why it happens.
unlike ur time limit, if sombody ever asked u would say "oh cause i wanted to" lame..
i hope u get my point..
WESTFALL "Also, if the camera is on the mercs wrist, why would he have to turn his entire body to view areas of a room?"
well im sorry about that i didnt explain myself correctly, what i mean by Virtual Reality is something maybe you hadnt heard of?
well what i mean by it is that, in case CamNet is selected, the merc has a diferent helmet were he has a heads up display, he can see through the glass that covers his face but as soon as camnet is activate with a button on the side of his camnet enabled helmet, his Heads up display which is projected inside the helmet and on to the glass covering his face, he can only see what the cam sees and to turn the camera, as a virtual reality video game would function, he would have to turn his body a little or at least rotate his head (obviously enought to be grabable from behind incase he has his back to the wall)
i hope u understand and i hope to recieve a non flaming response from u.
I happy you continue to flame on. I have nothing to waste on you. Obviously you're intelligence surpasses that of mine because you speak it so appropriately. When did I say I was in charge of the forum? Good, glad you can point that one out. If you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite. I'm not repeating it for the like of you because you obviously have an attention clause going on. Its great that there is an actual dev team, because their reading level is above that of an elementary schooler. I wish I could type in all caps all the time, but thats not really my style. I don't see how you're saying I was really mean when ppl responding didn't deserve a snide comment back because they potentially started it. It gets worse and worse as it progresses, hence you trying to be a hero and type in all caps because you needed to get the attention. You got it buddy, and I'm sure many people on the forum are aware that they don't want to talk to you. I'm just saying what they're thinking.
Quote
AS SAID BY RAMBO "you came up with no point at all why camnet shouldn't be infinite."
AND BY ME, you never really gave ur reason why u want time limit on camnet, ur just naggin like a lil kid saying its not because u had a hard time with mercs using camnet and, and then repeating that to me sayin im the one having trouble with camnet even though i never proposed timelimit.
Once again, try reading the thread once in a while.
Virtual reality....in an action-stealth game. I'm sure so many people really want this brilliant idea implemented, hence why not one person has said anything about it aside from myself. In fact, you were ignored because the idea was....well....fucking stupid. Devs don't have the time to look at bullshit, and you wreak of it. So please, don't try to call me out on some bullshit when you're guilty as charged.
Now that this thread was spammed by the likes of a little girl, I ask that the devs lock it because its absolutely not progressing with this fuckin child. Lock please
The reason why an interesting and yet creative debate ought to be shut down just because you make a big act out of someone's input is beyond me, Westfall. Besides, there are these things they call private messages.
QuoteIf you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite.
westfall, your point fails. we all agree that patroulling should still be needed with camnet, and the right way to reach this goal is simply by not having every important area covered by camnet (+removing special visions and making maps darker), eg. not putting camnet in every goddamn room and not allowing every moving/fov angle (some more obstacles in the fov for instance). having a gay timer doesn't help shit, it just calls for more camping on the spy side which is just as bad.
roberto1223, you're an idiot. i don't know more about you, but i guess you're either some random fool from the ubi forums or some smurf #928 of some other fool. i don't wanna flame you, but seriously, either get a brain or spam less important threads in the off-topic section.
QuoteFactory: I suppose no one's figured out since the tourney that if you stand in MH right in front of the vent you can tell where the spies are going from spawn and act accordingly? No noise on reticle = B/C. Noise on reticle = he fell down underneath. Spy pops out from vent up top and you shoot him. Not very hard to figure out.
this only works in the very beginning (or after a respawn), and doesn't help that much if the spies split up and use snares.
QuoteI hate to tell you, but CT already relies on incapacitating the mercs to win. Sure, the first objective or two you might be able to get away with running around and keeping the mercs away, but eventually the area of coverage is going to get small enough where you're going to have to take out a merc to win.
which is a bad thing. some aggro covering with teamplay should be needed towards the end, but definitely not killing/knocking out a merc. on a balanced map, you have at least 3 objectives left in the end, and by that i mean at least a little spread out ones that aren't too hard to get (bad: polar base, aqua; balanced: club, orph, factory).
Quotethis only works in the very beginning (or after a respawn), and doesn't help that much if the spies split up and use snares.
Spy trap at the bottom vent.
chaff/mate at the bottom vent XD
All you queers that think that mercenary equipment should have a limited energy charge like spy with his shocker and cloak... are queers. Camnet being limited goes back to the issue of stealth. By what I've read, most of you want aggro to be non-existent in PS. Limiting camnet won't do that for you. Camnet encourages spies to "AVOID" being on mercs sight... "STEALTH". If you think limiting mercs viewing accessabilities will do any good for the stealth vs aggro debate, yer wrong.
Quote from: Rambo on September 06, 2008, 08:08:28 PM
chaff/mate at the bottom vent XD
You still know where the spy went, and he's only got two ways out. If they use partner to remove the trap, you now know where both of them are, and each merc can guard an exit.
Thank you for proving my point :).
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2008, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Snakebit. on September 05, 2008, 06:24:03 PM
Hbs + power drain is a useless combo. Most good players don't use it for long. People usually turn it on fast , check things around themselves and then turn it off . How will power drain effect that ?
Well you can make it last for 3 seconds only , but that will be absurd because new players will never be able to use it well and this will also encourage the fast usage of that item...... Which is imho not the point of it.
I disagree. Using the HBS for even a short period of time takes one shot off the SS...that's one shot less you have to defend yourself if you get caught.
QuoteCamp with hbs + Cam will be impossible you think ? But you can always switch between gadget 1 and gadget 2 to prevent the drain of energy , can't you ?
Make it so that HBS won't activate if the energy meter isn't full like camo. Problem solved.
QuoteThe only balance to the gadget IMHO is to weaken it a bit , but not by power drain , but by making the Scan Wave take more time + not showing the target on the radar all the time .. ( Only make it possible to see the location where the target was for 0.2 sec and make the wave take 4-5 sec ) < I am not sure of time because , once again , it will need balancing.
I don't like the idea of a target sometimes appearing on radar. That's what happens with spy bullets currently, and it's excessively annoying.
QuoteIf the Camnets gets a power drain , it will get weakened a bit , but it will still remain a powerful tool , one might say even an imbalanced one . I agree that on some maps it is very imbalanced , BUT if you haven't noticed it is only imbalanced on HUGE MAPS ( Factory , Rivermall , Polar base ).
I think camnet is imbalanced because the mercs can use it indefinitely and there is no direct counter to it on the spy side short of running around. More importantly, I don't like the fact that it allows the mercs to play a more campy playstyle, which makes them a lot less susceptible to ambushes, which in turn makes them a lot less susceptible to being incapacitated.
QuoteIf there was no camnet on those maps ( Excluding polar base ) , it would be almost impossible for the merc to win the map .
I strongly disagree. Spy traps are very useful on those maps, although they have their own issues as well. Even with just double backpack + mines, it's very possible to win on those maps.
And really, this isn't any problem that can't be solved by upping the passive defenses in the map rather than having the merc operate some of the cameras.
QuoteThere are only 2 mercs and it's impossible for 2 of them to check 3 huge sectors all the time . The spy would be able to do his job the DA style .( Sneak - Hack - Run - Hide 100 times all over again )
Welcome to the current state of CT.
QuoteCamnet prevents the Sneak-Hack-Run-Hide scenario on huge maps and i think that it is not a very bad thing. Camnet might be imbalanced on those maps , but on the other hand mercs are already weakened on those maps by the sheer amount of space they need to check so the map becomes more balanced with it.
Camnet only takes the sneak and hide out of that strat, so it boils down to just run-hack. The only map that's too big for mercs to cover effectively is Vertigo.
QuoteLike Spekkio said Camnet is almost crap when it comes to dealing with small rooms , but its not totally useless in my opinion . In my experience it is not so bad to prevent the spy from hacking the ND for additional 1-2 sec than to have 2 more nades + 2 more mines . ( There is the good old suicide for more gadgets )
Yes but this is where spy traps become more useful than camnet.
I am really not good at making those quote boxes so ill just write all of my stuff in a single text.
I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......
Making hbs not active when you don't have full energy is a bit unrealistic but its a way to balance it , but there can be other ways to do so . For example make the right mouse button activate hbs which will activate it after 1-2 seconds to prevent from abusing switching from gadget 1 to gadget 2.
Well a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )
I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
In addition to that if 1 merc is tracking the spy with camnet and the other is trying to kill him that gives the other spy an opportunity to either disable the camnet merc or to hack an objective . You just need to have teamplay .
Spy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .
Vertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .
Edit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .
Note : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .
Now because there is camnet . You can do several things about that tactic . One is that you can try to prevent the spies to get into hi-fi by any means and 2nd you can check FAST with camnet where the spy might be going. If there was no camnet this tactic would be IMPOSSIBLE to counter if it was executed decently . [ Note : Decently , not Perfectly even ]
There are similar tactics for Factory and other maps but i am very lazy to type it all here. Camnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.
@spekkio: actually going down there as a merc is kinda stupid as you are in bad situation if the spy rushes out at the front. and one spy kinda binds two mercs leaving machine room wide open.
spytraps can help you for sure, but 3 traps on such a big map is kinda ridiculous. there are some nice spots (like on most maps), but they help shit against careful players compared with camnet or backpack.
what i really don't like about spytraps is that it's so easy to spot them with thermal vision that they suck in most places and in the tricky places, it basically comes down to a gadget counter game with chaff if you don't happen to have your mate around. besides, they gadget overlap with poison mines in many locations/uses. all in all, spytraps need more changes than camnet.
Quote from: Rambo on September 06, 2008, 04:31:32 PM
QuoteIf you actually read some of the posts in this thread, you would see perfectly valid explanations as to why camnet does NOT need to be infinite.
westfall, your point fails. we all agree that patroulling should still be needed with camnet, and the right way to reach this goal is simply by not having every important area covered by camnet (+removing special visions and making maps darker), eg. not putting camnet in every goddamn room and not allowing every moving/fov angle (some more obstacles in the fov for instance). having a gay timer doesn't help shit, it just calls for more camping on the spy side which is just as bad.
We all agree....who are "we"? The only people really talking about it were you, I, Spekkio, and Snakebit. As far as we being a large group, that's not really present. Obviously patrolling is needed with camnet. With camnet placed in good locations, and visions gone...a merc can STILL camp with camnet. With a time limit on camnet, they can't camp as much as they would like because it would drain. Camping on the spy side is being stealthy. Its not camping. You wanted a stealth game. Being stealthy requires sometimes for NO MOVEMENT. You wait in the shadows...you wait for your next move. Mercs stare at camnet waiting for you to make your move, and the first glimpse, you don't really stand a chance. AS SOON as you're seen there is direct interaction. Your location is blown because a merc can just sit in a spot inaccessible to a spy. Its not that complicated. We all obviously play with camnet. Its use of infinite time is easily one of the most overpowering things in the game. The visions don't even matter, because you can just stare at your screen for such a long time. I really don't see how this is a hard concept and why people need the mercenary side to be that much easier with a camera placed in every room that you can stare at. We suggested a while back for having a room that had a camera system in it that you would have to go to if you wanted to check things out. That didn't fly. No visions/better placement are two great ideas, and simple ideas, but neither fix the problem of camnet being an over powered gadget. Placement won't matter as much because you can zoom to full room, and then zoom in to specific locations. The visions won't change much because most people don't even need them to know if something is moving or not. I understand you may not "like" the idea. The point of these forums is to help balance certain issues that the devs will ultimately decide. In fact, I would love to hear some input from the devs on the matter since people have no real counter aside from it being "gay" or "queer". Both of those inputs obviously mean that people have a great idea about what they're talking about.
Quote from: Kurbutti on September 06, 2008, 02:13:33 PM
The reason why an interesting and yet creative debate ought to be shut down just because you make a big act out of someone's input is beyond me, Westfall. Besides, there are these things they call private messages.
Maybe you should tell that to roberto then yea? The thread is going to continue to flame on regardless because several people don't give actual input. i.e.:
Quote from: Blank Man on September 06, 2008, 08:14:33 PM
All you queers that think that mercenary equipment should have a limited energy charge like spy with his shocker and cloak... are queers. Camnet being limited goes back to the issue of stealth. By what I've read, most of you want aggro to be non-existent in PS. Limiting camnet won't do that for you. Camnet encourages spies to "AVOID" being on mercs sight... "STEALTH". If you think limiting mercs viewing accessabilities will do any good for the stealth vs aggro debate, yer wrong.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 06, 2008, 01:03:39 AM
Quote from: Westfall on September 04, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on September 04, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote from: Rambo on September 01, 2008, 06:16:52 PM
camnet with time limit? that's almost as much bullshit like agent's idea XD
im with Rambo, first i thought i was with westfall too but, "timelimit on camnet"? are you kidding lol!!! dude just cause u have had trouble against mercs who use camnet dosent mean u can propose an idea to ur personal advantage, just use teamwork or outsmart the god damn merc who cant really see what the hell is going on infront of him.
its funny because your idea is so gay.
so your sayin there is no reason for timed camnet, its just childish naggin of urs because u just dont want it to be like that.
bull shit, u must have a reason u just dont wanna say thats why i supposed u were having trouble with mercs using camnet.
plus its a lame idea anyway, most of PS comunity wants a game that ubi was never able to polish off, a more realistic game.
putting a gay time limit on a device that in real life wouldnt have timelimit (or at least not in seconds or even minutes) is dumb
also the flashlight battery idea i think is lame i mean, how often do u change batteries on ur flashlight, give me a fuckin break or just buy a new fuckin flashlight lol.
spies take too many risks as it is already having to count on top of them all is simply unrealistic, lame, and gay.
Just 2 awesome examples of really well thought out input. Obviously...
Can I get a devs input? I know its probably still "too far away" to decide anything and that beta testing will ultimately serve as the final conclusion, but thoughts, comments, and criticisms never hurt a soul.
Sorry for dbl post
Quote
I disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
In addition to that if 1 merc is tracking the spy with camnet and the other is trying to kill him that gives the other spy an opportunity to either disable the camnet merc or to hack an objective . You just need to have teamplay .
Yes, there are ways around camnet: cams/surprise neck. The problem is that spies can't always access the merc and that sometimes if they try to get to him they either have to shoot something, or make noise in some manner. This one isn't all focused on team play as much as it is focused on the spies accessibility to the merc. If the spy can't get to the merc, it allows for camping. If camnet isn't placed in certain rooms near objectives, mercs can camp out near the objective that requires some sort of a breach that will trigger an alarm or environmental disturbance. Its easy that there are ways around camnet. The point is, not everyone is retarded when using camnet, which doesn't allow for ways around camnet. If a merc has potentially spotted you with it, and you try to remain still, he can wait until you fuck up and make the first move. Thats quite weak.
Could someone make a recap of the points of all sides? I tend to stop reading after a debate gets to a certain tone. Thank you.
As for another idea: what about a Merc showing up on the Spy's radar when he uses Camnet?
westfall, you make yourself look like a fool if you insist that camnet can't be balanced by proper cam placement. there's absolutely nothing to discuss about that as club, orph etc proove. it's totally fine to dislike the general idea of camnet (like spekkio does), but your point totally fails.
what you also forget is that the goal of the game is not to incapacitate the mercs, the goal is to hack/protect objectives.
what do you care if a merc camps with his back to a wall in some point far away from you? while a merc spends time to find you with camnet, you can be on the move while he's totally immobile and blind to his direct sourroundings. a merc moves slower and often has to take longer paths than a spy, so every second he spends in camnet not finding a spy works strongly against him.
there's nothing wrong with spending time in camnet, there's something wrong if you can see the whole map in 3 seconds.
when i say "we all", i do mean all ct/future ps players. i didn't read anyone advocating less patroulling yet anywhere on this forum or sclamers or elsewhere...
i think the main problems with camnet can be traced back to ubi not providing any needed patches for the map balance.
about snakebit's tactic example: he's totally right that camnet makes a lot of gay tactics way more challenging to pull of.
prime example for me is club where it's a common tactic to hack garden for only 1-2s and quickly change or pretend to change the floor.
it's not that camnet forces the spies to play aggro, by contrast there are some situations where it counters aggro pretty well. for instance when your mate is aggroed in a camnet-sourveilled room and doesn't see shit because of flash/smoke/chaff, you can guide him out of trouble.
i know that most of you guys don't respect me very much, but at least try to listen a bit to someone like snakebit proven to be very competent.
Quote from: Rambo on September 06, 2008, 11:14:00 PM
westfall, you make yourself look like a fool if you insist that camnet can't be balanced by proper cam placement. there's absolutely nothing to discuss about that as club, orph etc proove. it's totally fine to dislike the general idea of camnet (like spekkio does), but your point totally fails.
what you also forget is that the goal of the game is not to incapacitate the mercs, the goal is to hack/protect objectives.
what do you care if a merc camps with his back to a wall in some point far away from you? while a merc spends time to find you with camnet, you can be on the move while he's totally immobile and blind to his direct sourroundings. a merc moves slower and often has to take longer paths than a spy, so every second he spends in camnet not finding a spy works strongly against him.
there's nothing wrong with spending time in camnet, there's something wrong if you can see the whole map in 3 seconds.
There's nothing more for me to argue. I can counter everything you say, but honestly, you could counter it yourself. Its not hard to see the problems with an infinite camnet. There are differing views of the game and the things that should be implemented. Not everyone will be happy with the fixes that happen. I'm not going to continue trying to explain a really simple and useful idea if the counter argument lacks girth. I respect you as a player Rambo and granted you've gone off the deep end at some periods during the PS time frame, but I don't see how this idea is a struggle in order to see how much it would actually help the idea of this gadget and its balance. All of the arguments coming from people apparently have these easy tactics around it, but when the game is in full effect we will see what happens yea? In other words, I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Can only wish we saw eye to eye, but I guess thats what makes this game so unique. I'm putting it very nicely btw, b/c my real thoughts would just cause another riot over something so simple-minded.
And I don't make myself look like a fool. I want to make sure that this game will be good just like you. Proper placement and no visions to camnet are not the only fixes necessary to make it work well. The gadget is going to remain flawed.
Frvge's idea was pretty interesting.
it's pointless to try to argue with someone not capable of logic more complex than 1+1. i'm 100% sure that you are totally wrong because my opinion is based on pure logic while yours is based solely on personal preference.
Quote from: Rambo on September 07, 2008, 12:16:38 AM
it's pointless to try to argue with someone not capable of logic more complex than 1+1. i'm 100% sure that you are totally wrong because my opinion is based on pure logic while yours is based solely on personal preference.
And instead of discussing my idea, you are ignoring it, and flaming on westfall.
To Rambo: I don't consider myself very competent but i do have some knowledge on the subject . I just express my point of view and people should agree with it or disagree but also it would be nice if they stated why they do so. My opinion in no way is the only 'true' one.
To Westfall : Arguing for the sake of arguing is bad Imho .......
Quote from: Snakebit. on September 06, 2008, 08:47:04 PM
I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......
You're making it sound like the HBS would recharge instantly, which is not the case. Also, the split second you activate it, it will take away a shot from the SS. Won't make a huge difference (and I don't think it has to), but it will still make one.
QuoteWell a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )
I think that this is a bit of a complex solution, and can easily cause confusion on the part of newer players trying to understand how HBS actually works.
QuoteI disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
It's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.
The slower the spies move, the more potent camnet is. Gives the merc a higher likelihood of spotting you, and also eats a lot of time off the clock.
QuoteSpy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .
You don't need chaff to counter spy traps considering that your teammate can remove them, they can be shot out, and you can usually find a way around them.
QuoteVertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .
I agree, but those long bridges are what make the map so hard to cover.
QuoteEdit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .
I agree that camnet is better on factory; my point was simply to counter your statement that it's impossible for the mercs to win on the map without it.
QuoteNote : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .
Easily stopped by both mercs going to hi-fi. You can't win the game in the main area, but you can win it in hi-fi.
Also, even with camnet you'd have to have your partner come help you because it's always faster for the spy to move from office ---> lower hi-fi than the merc to walk there.
QuoteCamnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.
I agree. Therein lies the problem.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 07, 2008, 12:59:19 AM
Quote from: Snakebit. on September 06, 2008, 08:47:04 PM
I disagree that hbs will take even 1 ss shot away. Everybody use it for checking things around themselves . Okay it might take 1 shot away if you look with hbs where the merc is and shoot at the same time , but i actually do that rarely when i use hbs . I usually have nades turned on when i start to shoot at a merc ......
You're making it sound like the HBS would recharge instantly, which is not the case. Also, the split second you activate it, it will take away a shot from the SS. Won't make a huge difference (and I don't think it has to), but it will still make one.
QuoteWell a difference in opinion . Actually i like my idea more that yours . This will make the hbs + cam a bit harder and it will take actual skill to do it . Oh and on the side note , may be you guys misunderstood me a bit or i didn't give a clear description but i meant it to work something like this : The scan wave reaches the target and detects it . The target appears on the radar even if it didn't move BUT it only shows the place where he was at the moment when then scan wave reached him . It won't show the Exact movement of the merc but just will show it partially . The spy will have to wait 3-4 sec again for the scan wave to reach the merc again so the gadget will be weakened a bit and the camp + hbs + cam trick will be harder and will take skill to time . If this idea is implemented there will be actually a variety between spy bullet ( Which gives exact information on the mercs movement all the time in a certain area or if it is put on a merc but is not infinite) and hbs ( Which will give Less information , will be harder to use and will take a bit more time to use but is infinite )
I think that this is a bit of a complex solution, and can easily cause confusion on the part of newer players trying to understand how HBS actually works.
QuoteI disagree that there is no counter to cam net . There is camo suit .... There are blind spots in camnet .. A merc has to stand still to check camnet which makes it a lot easier to cam/neck him . If his standing with his back to a wall than the merc DOES have some brains but it is still possible to cam him.......
It's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.
The slower the spies move, the more potent camnet is. Gives the merc a higher likelihood of spotting you, and also eats a lot of time off the clock.
QuoteSpy traps are a useful item and they are good for some maps But not for all . Sometimes camnet is more useful than spytraps for me ( Orph / fact / Cinema etc ) . Certainly there are some very good places for spy traps , like the place at factory in machine near that vent , but there are not many of them . Spy traps force the spy to take chaff to counter it and if i remember correctly , you are against 'weapon counters' in Sc Spekkio .
You don't need chaff to counter spy traps considering that your teammate can remove them, they can be shot out, and you can usually find a way around them.
QuoteVertigo is not a big map . Its not so hard to check it , it is just those long bridges that make it look and feel big . They take around 30 seconds to pass .... The buildings themselves are not so big .
I agree, but those long bridges are what make the map so hard to cover.
QuoteEdit : Spekkio's has a point about spy traps in factory and that vent in machine + The Mh start tactic at as merc . I can agree those are good tactics at factory but in general they don't make the life of spies so much 10 times harder as camnet does on those maps . If there was no camnet you could just use the 'Fools' running strategy which actually me and Solidus used a lot even with camnet , but without camnet it would be 10 times more effective .
I agree that camnet is better on factory; my point was simply to counter your statement that it's impossible for the mercs to win on the map without it.
QuoteNote : Ill make a little explanation on what is 'Fools' running strategy . It is a situation when 1 spy and 1 merc and present in 1 sector where there are 2 or more objectives . That requires some teamplay to be done before that happens but in maps such as Rivermall and Factory it is not so hard because the map is huge and there are several ways to get to different places. Then when you have 1 merc and 1 spy in 1 sector you start to run in circles with the merc and the merc can't do a crap exept to pray for an insta nade , spray headshot or to have mines placed beforehand ( We usually take them off before we start doing this ). Lets take rivermall for example ----> Me and Soliduses tactic again . Snakebit goes to
Hi-fi and Solidus stays in main. Both mercs are split , now the round starts to depend more on solo skill than teamplay . Snakebit run's from Hi-fi down ---> Office by that roof thing [And the other way around]. It is usually impossible to counter this even with camnet . Solidus runs from vgames ----> Infokiosk [And the other way around]. He might not take whole nd with 1 run but doing it 2-3 times he will take 1 of them and the other is gonna be at 50-60%. So what do we get ? Hi-fi down or Office is taken . Infokiosk or Vgames is taken. Vgames or Info (which one is left ) is around 50%. There is still 2 more objectives in Hi Fi sector. You can still run around like an idiot there taking 1-2 sec althought it is a bit harder with Hi-fi up and Hi-fi down or office because of camnet .
Easily stopped by both mercs going to hi-fi. You can't win the game in the main area, but you can win it in hi-fi.
Also, even with camnet you'd have to have your partner come help you because it's always faster for the spy to move from office ---> lower hi-fi than the merc to walk there.
QuoteCamnet just makes those tactics 10 times more hard to use.
I agree. Therein lies the problem.
It Dosen't regenerate instantly but it also won't take much energy to check for the merc + do you usually shoot the merc right after you checked where he was with hbs ?
I don't think its a lot more complex to understand. After using hbs for 2-3 times and Spy bullits for 2-3 times they will understand the difference easily.
It depends on your skill and timing if you can run from point a to point b without geting spoted by camnet.
Depends how you do it , what gadgets you use and so on .... And ofcourse a bit on luck .
As to the merc thing hiding in ambush or in unreachable places. Scworld gave the radar idea which is imho a very good idea.
It wastes a lot of time + you and your m8 get spoted easily if you both remove 1 spy trap. Chaff helps a lot with that against spy traps .... Well there are some unchaffable spy traps but there are not many of them.
I think i made a little mistake typing that it was impossible to win factory for merc without camnet. 90% of games would be won by spy on those maps without camnet . Ofcourse its not impossible to win as merc but it would still get pretty much onesided on those maps.
Well yeah there is that tactic to forget about vgames and info , but that leaves 3 nd's with 2 mercs . If 1 is downed its pretty much over if you don't get helped by god and Taz + hack 1-2 dosen't help that tactic either. That sheer tactic forces you to make unneeded sacrifices .
QuoteI think i made a little mistake typing that it was impossible to win factory for merc without camnet. 90% of games would be won by spy on those maps without camnet . Ofcourse its not impossible to win as merc but it would still get pretty much onesided on those maps.
As someone who used to not take camnet on factory at all, I think that you're exaggerating. I agree that the spies have an easier time without it, but I still think that the mercs would win well over 50% of the time even without camnet.
QuoteIf 1 is downed its pretty much over if you don't get helped by god and Taz + hack 1-2 dosen't help that tactic either. That sheer tactic forces you to make unneeded sacrifices .
You have to do it anyway, though, because like I said a lone merc can't keep up with a lone spy who runs between office and lower hi-fi, even with camnet.
Also, it's usually pretty hard to neutralize a merc, so while the tactic is risky, it's not the worst thing in the world.
Mall revolves around the chokepoint from the front to hi-fi. With or without camnet, you have to stop the spies from getting back there or you're going to have a very hard time with it.
i'm sorry, here you go frvge:
QuoteAs for another idea: what about a Merc showing up on the Spy's radar when he uses Camnet?
the spies have very capable tools to locate the merc (hbs,bullets,stickies,tv) so the only thing this would do is give spies a camnet-in-use warning when the merc isn't shown on radar anyways. besides, if the merc is that far away that you don't know where he is, you better start hacking asap.
QuoteIt's not really possible to cam a merc in camnet -- he will be able to come out of it and put mask on in time most of the time. Also, if he's smart, he'll be in a room with a camnet thing in it so that he can see you come to him. Camo is not a valid counter in CT because of the noise, but it probably will be in PS. As for staying out of the view of the cam, there are only so many routes in the map that the spies can take. It's not hard to use process of elimination to find out what those routes are.
all of those previous statements will hopefully be false for ps: camming a merc using camnet should be perfectly possible at any time, if it doesn't work, it's a bug. camo is very likely to get a boost and especially eax superhearing will be history, so that camo gets a better counter against camnet and that locating spies without camnet will get way harder. watching oneself in camnet is kinda stupid and only a trick to humiliate noobs trying to grab you. there may be only a few routes to take for the spy, but if you don't know what the spies are heading for, it doesn't help you shit over long term to reduce it to a handful of possibilities.
Quotecamming a merc using camnet should be perfectly possible at any time, if it doesn't work, it's a bug.
Actually, that gave me an idea: put a 1-2 second animation when going into and out of camnet so that you can't just instantly switch to it.
I still think it's gay for gameplay and should be removed, though.
"When did I say I was in charge of the forum? Good, glad you can point that one out."
"I ask that the devs lock it because its absolutely not progressing with this fuckin child. Lock please"
LOL whatever dude...
and im not the one talking like a smart ass quoting like 10 poeple and flaming them all so dont tell people im the one making a big deal out of this.
lol i hadnt noticed so many people were calling u gay in here... thanks for pointing it out on ur quotations now i know i was right.
i prefer being the idiot than the gay dude but thats just me..
you take yourself too seriously lol
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oh and rambo, im not a smurf, ive been playing SCCT since online Beta of versus, and guess what i have not ever seen u play it online, i dont know u at all either. but i dont suppose that ur a noob or smurf just caus i dont know u.
i dont say i know u as an idiot or that ur most probably a smurf or noob, cause i really dont have anything against you so, wtf is ur reason to attack me? lol
just because we dont know eachother, and because maybe you think ur pro at SCCT,and that u know everybody in the community, dosent mean that im a smurf or noob.
i admit it im not a pro but i can say that i SCCT is one of my fav games and thats why im here.
so ur the fool for thinking u know the whole comunitie's members that arent on smurf accounts.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 07, 2008, 04:14:44 AM
Actually, that gave me an idea: put a 1-2 second animation when going into and out of camnet so that you can't just instantly switch to it.
this would prevent at least one merc from the use me and snakebit have in mind: to stop/make harder gay half-aggro moving-in-circles tactics and related bullshit. it would change nothing regarding stealth. i really don't know why you want to support totally gay tactics XD
@spekkio, that's possible. I've also got a more detailed idea about it, which would be extremely adjustable for all variations/ideas you can think of, but the problem is that it demands a different mind-set. In other words: it's maybe too different than what we're used to. Hit me up on xfire and we can discuss it.
Share please :)
Quotethis would prevent at least one merc from the use me and snakebit have in mind: to stop/make harder gay half-aggro moving-in-circles tactics and related bullshit. it would change nothing regarding stealth. i really don't know why you want to support totally gay tactics XD
The camo change will help stealth. Really, though, the best counter to camnet is always going to be moving as quickly as possible to keep ahead of the mercs. The gadget is just gay in design.
Running around in circles can be stopped by employing more static defenses and not allowing chaff to work through walls.
it's ok to dislike the whole idea of camnet, especially on small/medium maps. but the nerfs you guys suggest are simply stupid. just let zed do his job well and we have no problem at all.
the whole spytrap/mine/chaff thingy is worth one or two new threads, i'll do that maybe later.
What about this: The quality dramatically decreases with distance, like a wireless network. Then, camnet would be used for scanning the room before entering, instead of check every room in the map.
Interesting idea. Technically it should be possible :)
i can't see the problem with scanning an area far away, actually that's the main point of it. there's only a problem if it's impossible to bypass camnet. however, decreasing the picture quality generally a tiny bit could help to make half-shadows safer and make the merc zoom in sometimes.
Quote from: Rambo on September 07, 2008, 05:36:06 PM
it's ok to dislike the whole idea of camnet, especially on small/medium maps. but the nerfs you guys suggest are simply stupid. just let zed do his job well and we have no problem at all.
the whole spytrap/mine/chaff thingy is worth one or two new threads, i'll do that maybe later.
What's so stupid about it? You're telling me that part of the problem of camnet is that a merc can near instantly activate it, look into a room, and spot where the spies are (or aren't). If you add a time or animation to activate camnet, it mitigates the problem.
Quote from: Rambo on September 07, 2008, 07:57:54 PM
i can't see the problem with scanning an area far away, actually that's the main point of it. there's only a problem if it's impossible to bypass camnet. however, decreasing the picture quality generally a tiny bit could help to make half-shadows safer and make the merc zoom in sometimes.
The way I see it, a merc can camp until he sees a spy, across the map or not. Making it harder to see a spy across the map would make the mercs move more.
those "fixes" have complex consequences and are totally unnecessary if you simply put camnet in balanced positions only. "balanced" means that there have to be unsurveilled routes to every single objective like blind spots, obstacles, shadows, other access points like vents, backdoor etc.
it's a good thing that camnet helps you to stay up with a spy close to you running in circles or trying to pull off some other gay tactic (adding an animation would make that almost impossible).
it's also totally okay that you can find uncareful spies at the other side of the map because of the travel time to them (making it work well only in close areas would prevent that). in fact, camnet is what makes big maps playable (especially if you take eax superhearing out of the calculation), and if you can't locate spies in distance with it, what's the point?
what you still don't get is that camping is a bad thing on a balanced map. camping while not being blind is only slightely better because it helps you shit to see a spy and not being able to shoot him because you are on the other side of the map. if you ever played versus solidus&snakebit (who are quite known to be camnet whores), you would notice one thing: they don't camp with camnet and react, because having a playstile that forces you to react only is a bad thing in every competitive game. if you want to win, you have to make some pressure and play an active part.
Quotethose "fixes" have complex consequences and are totally unnecessary if you simply put camnet in balanced positions only. "balanced" means that there have to be unsurveilled routes to every single objective like blind spots, obstacles, shadows, other access points like vents, backdoor etc.
First, if fixes to one thing create new problems in another, then you address those problems. It's bound to happen even with relatively simple changes and bug fixes anyway. Secondly, I don't think that putting camnet in "balanced" places would make too much of a difference.
Quotewhat you still don't get is that camping is a bad thing on a balanced map.
I think I know how to play the game, thankyouverymuch. Tell me, in a game where the mercs win > 80% of the time on any given map, what constitutes a "balanced" map? Ones where the merc winrate is closer to 80 than 100? There is no such thing as a "balanced" map in CT because the game balance is completely fucked from other factors, one of which being camnet.
QuoteI think I know how to play the game, thankyouverymuch. Tell me, in a game where the mercs win > 80% of the time on any given map, what constitutes a "balanced" map? Ones where the merc winrate is closer to 80 than 100? There is no such thing as a "balanced" map in CT because the game balance is completely fucked from other factors, one of which being camnet.
balance is mostly fucked up due to poor map design. take club for instance (the standart map par excellence): one merc standing between the door to tea/lunch (or jacuzzi/steam) and garden can reach all the objectives on his floor in under 5 seconds. now combine that knowledge with the tactic of giving up one floor and the possibility to snipe both garden objectives from one position, and you know that if you switch to a camper tactic fast enough (and have enough equipment left), the spies have hell of a time getting the last objective(s). yes, you can argue that neutralizing a merc should be easier to solve that problem. but if you make it any easier, then why not neutralize the merc for every objective? why not go play some dm? maps like hospital show that it's quite possible to create a balanced map, and if everything else fails, why not simply lower the winning conditions by 1 objective?
QuoteI don't think that putting camnet in "balanced" places would make too much of a difference.
i don't know how it's possible not to see that the biggest (and most map specific thus very adaptive) balance factor for camnet is the location and amount of cams.
Quotebalance is mostly fucked up due to poor map design.
I strongly disagree, considering that pretty much every map in existance has the mercs winning over the spies by a large margin.
Quotewhy not go play some dm? maps like hospital show that it's quite possible to create a balanced map, and if everything else fails, why not simply lower the winning conditions by 1 objective?
Hospital isn't balanced.
Quotebut if you make it any easier, then why not neutralize the merc for every objective?
I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing if you had to. A competitive game is only fun when there is conflict between the two sides. Shocking and running around (such as in Hospital) isn't it.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 08, 2008, 01:46:06 AM
Quotebalance is mostly fucked up due to poor map design.
I strongly disagree, considering that pretty much every map in existance has the mercs winning over the spies by a large margin.
that's because pretty much every map has major flaws. most maps were designed for casual console gamers, not for competitive pc gamers. most maps could easily be fixed with some minor changes, it's just that there's no patch...
QuoteI don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing if you had to. A competitive game is only fun when there is conflict between the two sides. Shocking and running around (such as in Hospital) isn't it.
i agree that there should be as much interaction as possible. but in a stealth game, sneaking past the patroulling merc who's only 10 meters away or encircling a spy before he realizes it is good interaction for me, too. i don't think we necessarily need more neutralization of the mercs for increased interaction, i'd rather make the maps darker and remove boring travelling ways/save zones before i think about that.
Contradiction. You just said we need more safe routs from Camnet, but now you want to remove other safe routs? Confused.
Quote from: Rambo on September 07, 2008, 12:16:38 AM
it's pointless to try to argue with someone not capable of logic more complex than 1+1. i'm 100% sure that you are totally wrong because my opinion is based on pure logic while yours is based solely on personal preference.
You don't really show much logic throughout your posts unfortunately. My personal preference would be to remove camnet completely. Its cheap and one of the most unnecessarily over powered gadgets put in the game. I forget still that you're a "pro" and get paid to play the game, so you obviously have a greater knowledge than I do....I'm sure.
By trying to balance camnet, which I don't know if you can balance a stick by the way you're babbling, it leaves the alternative of leaving it in. My apologies if I've upset you over a gadget that was retarded to begin with. Placement doesn't allow for mercs to stop camping. If anything, it enhances it. The same goes along with taking away visions. Making camnet "harder to find spies" with only makes camping a greater option. Yes, you can counter it, but its not hard for a merc to counter the spies counter.
Quotethose "fixes" have complex consequences and are totally unnecessary if you simply put camnet in balanced positions only. "balanced" means that there have to be unsurveilled routes to every single objective like blind spots, obstacles, shadows, other access points like vents, backdoor etc.
Thats what balanced means to you? "Unsurveiled" routes don't accomplish everything you would hope for if the eye in the sky is on an objective. Shadows will be greater now with the camnet having no visions. Then again, why wouldn't I just sit somewhere spy-safe and just stare at each camnet until I saw movement? If you know the maps well enough and plant yourself in a good spot...its not too difficult to foretell the spy's moves. I don't think many people take into account that theres only 10 minutes on most maps. 10 minutes for someone to stare through the camnet without getting touched only to make a find, terminate the spy, and get back into position or help the other merc out if he/she is struggling to find the spy thats in their vicinity. Just because a spy hides behind an obstacle (pillar, box) does not entail that a merc will not just sit and wait for you to show yourself. I think before you consider yourself as knowledgeable about balance you should consider time frame and amount that camnet sees. Remember you can see an entire room using camnet. Its not stabilized to one set point. If that were the case, it would make sense of placement, but I doubt that there is such a thing as good placement given that camnet can zoom in to specific points and zoom out to view an entire room from whatever angle its placed. That last sentence is logical because it makes sense...as opposed to continuously saying "balanced placement," which is as broad as you can get. There isn't going to be a balanced placement because the camnet can maneuver around on different angles.
Quote from: Ion.67 on September 08, 2008, 03:36:11 AM
Contradiction. You just said we need more safe routs from Camnet, but now you want to remove other safe routs? Confused.
Ditto.
@ Roberto...you've already made yourself the idiot here. After so few posts. You can call me gay all you want. I'm sorry if you can't comprehend such a simple idea...idiots often can't. They usually come upwith ideas like...oh, lets say virtual reality. Rambo and I can shoot the shit back and forth because he understands the game a lot better than you do, clearly. We can have "discussions", which is something grown up people do. The morons just come and flame away and try to prove that they are intellectually sound. You clearly take the cake. Keep trying to fit your block pieces...remember that triangles only have 3 sides.
Quote from: Ion.67 on September 08, 2008, 03:36:11 AM
Contradiction. You just said we need more safe routs from Camnet, but now you want to remove other safe routs? Confused.
sorry for the confusion, guess my english just sucks. i distinguish (is that the right word?) between save zones/paths (bullet-proof vents etc.) and unsurveilled routes (no camnet/bypassable passive security). gameplay would be more intense if you can't get from point A to point B without some danger and if there's less safe zones to retreat. to make up for that, i'd make the maps a lot darker and with more different routes, obstacles etc.
QuotePlacement doesn't allow for mercs to stop camping. If anything, it enhances it. The same goes along with taking away visions. Making camnet "harder to find spies" with only makes camping a greater option. Yes, you can counter it, but its not hard for a merc to counter the spies counter.
plz elaborate, i don't get it.
QuoteThen again, why wouldn't I just sit somewhere spy-safe and just stare at each camnet until I saw movement? If you know the maps well enough and plant yourself in a good spot...its not too difficult to foretell the spy's moves.
if you can foretell the spies' moves anyways, you better run there.
i also want to highlight that i'm speaking about stealth routes, not just dark spots to wait till the camnet light goes off.
Quote"Unsurveiled" routes don't accomplish everything you would hope for if the eye in the sky is on an objective.
actually, unless it's a big room like digger, cams over objectives are just as useless as spytraps or mines on an objective. by the time you get the information, it's already too late.
QuoteRemember you can see an entire room using camnet. Its not stabilized to one set point. If that were the case, it would make sense of placement, but I doubt that there is such a thing as good placement given that camnet can zoom in to specific points and zoom out to view an entire room from whatever angle its placed.
not necessecarily. place camnet lower, add some obstacles in front of it, make the room darker, let it face in a suboptimal angle (it only can move 180Ã,° leaving 180Ã,° open) etc.
it could also be a good option to remove the moving ability and only put a movable laser on it.
QuoteMy personal preference would be to remove camnet completely.
i think it can be balanced on every map, but it just doesn't fit well to every one. why not have the map designer decide if and where to put camnet? obviously, the ubi developers had no clue about svm gameplay, but players like zed do.
I haven't read the full topic so I'm gonna jump in a little late here and give my opinion on Camnet:
VERY OPERPOWERED.
In fact - like Westfall, I don't think it should be in the game at all, it's so easy to camp with and just obliterate anyone who comes into your path, the annoying thing is mercs will stand at the key points with it (for example, Bombs/Cafe Doors on Museum) and just camp for ages, it really is impossible to beat a player like that if they know what they're doing. One alternative would be to have a camnet room where you could view surveillance, rather then being able to stand in a corner and be untouchable.
The main problem with this community is too many people are trying to change things just for the sake of change, a lot of the things we discuss have no problems, camnet does but things like 'charging up merc equipment' are a load of bollocks IMO, isn't needed.
Quotei agree that there should be as much interaction as possible. but in a stealth game, sneaking past the patroulling merc who's only 10 meters away or encircling a spy before he realizes it is good interaction for me, too. i don't think we necessarily need more neutralization of the mercs for increased interaction, i'd rather make the maps darker and remove boring travelling ways/save zones before i think about that.
Why do you keep inserting some imaginary distinction between stealth and neutralizing the merc, and, conversely, keep equating neutralizing the merc with DM? Sneaking into position to ambush the merc via grabbing him or jumping on him requires stealth; the reward for which is that the merc is now out of your way so that you can get the objective. All I'm saying is that this aspect of the game should be more prevalant. That has nothing to do with playing "DM" or "going aggro." A head on attack by the spies doesn't need to be more powerful than it already is.
You pair easier merc neutralization with better map security so that one or two doesn't automatically result in a loss for the mercs.
You said on xfire that you don't find that aspect of the game very enthralling. To that, I reply, you must not really like the concept of SvM, since it would be silly for a game developer to give an ability to someone when it wasn't intended to be used. The reason we don't see more of it is that it doesn't work -- you can only be grabbed from the left, you can glitch out of railgrabs, and jumping only works for the host (the only difference in PT being that SS+Jump allowed jumping to work for all, but grabbing was nearly impossible due to the merc's ability to bunny hop). Just fixing those three things, and other minor tweaks like maybe not allowing mercs to heal each other, would already boost the spy's killing power (sidenote: a way to help balance some of the poorer maps in SCCT: activate lethal drop tech, which turns a successful jump into a kill).
More importantly, a game without direct interaction or conflict is going to be boring. As a spy, your job isn't be to run away all the time, but to find a way to bait and trap the mercs.
You'd rather play a game where spies just move around the mercs completely with very little interaction at all? There's one already for you: Double Agent.
i'm fine with making grabbing/jumping a little easier by adjusting the hitbox/putting grab and push on different buttons/boosting camo/etc, but if it get's too easy, the whole game will cycle around nothing else.
no, i don't pair map security with merc neutralization, especially not camnet which doesn't block objectives like an alarm does. but i think we all agree that pt had too much and ct too little passive security.
Hey doesn't mean make it easier, he means make it still a central part of the game.
Quotebut if it get's too easy, the whole game will cycle around nothing else.
I never advocated making it "too easy." I am advocating making it easier than next-to-impossible to eliminate the mercs given teams of similar skill.
I do not like the solution to decrease the lives to two because that doesn't fix anything. You still have a situation where it's extremely difficult to score a kill, but one or two mistakes means the game.
I think you read the map security part wrong: I meant to increase passive defenses so that it's more difficult for the spies to maneuver quickly. That, in turn, will require the mercs to be out of your way to get stuff done moreso than now, which will be balanced by the fact that it's easier to do.
I should note that, in the words of Ubi when they responded to Zed's Pyrocryptic map submission, that Ubi's vision for SvM was to be centralized about the concept of infiltration. If you look at most of the maps from PT, they follow that pattern: it is extremely difficult to crack the security; in fact, you are pretty much forced to neutralize a merc to do so. However, once you're in, you have a lot more freedom to roam around and it's much more difficult to be pinpointed.
As a sidenote, I find it funny that you think two of the most "balanced" maps are two of the flattest, which allow very little possibility for the spies to get the jump on mercs even if the hitboxes were fixed.
Quote from: Ion.67 on September 09, 2008, 03:43:12 AM
Hey doesn't mean make it easier, he means make it still a central part of the game.
At least someone here has some brain cells! +1.
Quote
Placement doesn't allow for mercs to stop camping. If anything, it enhances it. The same goes along with taking away visions. Making camnet "harder to find spies" with only makes camping a greater option. Yes, you can counter it, but its not hard for a merc to counter the spies counter.
Quoteplz elaborate, i don't get it.
If Mercs have camnet placed wherever it is, they camp with it. This is pretty much inevitable. Just because there will be "better placement" does not decrease the fact that mercs will camp with it. We were trying to stop mercs from camping with the camnet because its a lame tactic. Just because it gets placed somewhere "balanced" doesn't remove any camping, thus continually making camnet an over-powered POS. Most of the times the camnet is placed near an objective. If not its near a spy spawn point. SO, you can either tell when the spy is near an objective OR tell which route the spy is taking and cut him off. Really, we should make walls see through....
The idea of killing a merc when you jump on his dome is pretty reasonable. I think it would would have to depend on distance as opposed to position of landing. Is this what you meant when you said it Spekkio? Height, not landing section? Also, we need to take into consideration that you will probably be able to grab from more than one angle now, which is a hella plus.
actually, having to stand still/"camp", is one of the main factors that balances camnet. unless you play factory, mercs camping with camnet are pretty weak opponents.
i fully agree that neutralizing a merc is too hard in ct, but it will get way easier in ps anyways: mt not showing static spies at all, no emf ghosting, a well working hit-box both for jumping and grabbing (and maybe separate keys for grabbing/pushing), boosted camo, boosted flash as no more free-vision-through-snipe-bug and more mercs running around with normal vision, no more lag charges, no more bugusing/jumping out of pushes/pulling down, ...
there really i no need to change anything else considering all those balance tweaks. i don't know about you, but at least one third of my grab attempts result in a push in ct, and a lot of players (even "good" ones) use bugs like shit.
QuoteThe idea of killing a merc when you jump on his dome is pretty reasonable. I think it would would have to depend on distance as opposed to position of landing. Is this what you meant when you said it Spekkio? Height, not landing section? Also, we need to take into consideration that you will probably be able to grab from more than one angle now, which is a hella plus.
I was just pointing out that an option exists for it right now in CT, and that enabling said option helps balance otherwise imbalanced maps.
However, you do raise a good point: the height at which a spy drops on a merc in PS could affect damage dealt, with a certain altitude resulting in a kill.
agreed
QuoteHowever, you do raise a good point: the height at which a spy drops on a merc in PS could affect damage dealt, with a certain altitude resulting in a kill.
Thats a very good idea.
Also camnet as it is in ct is ridiculous. Make a camnet room like in river mall or something, where you actually have to leave your guarding postition to use it or just remove it completely.
Interesting idea.
Quote from: frvge on September 10, 2008, 11:39:45 PM
Interesting idea.
You say that every time it comes up =/
A lot of people think camnet is an overpowered PoS because it allows a lot of 'lame' actions to be done .
At the momment , having read all of the posts , I have seen actually 2 'overpowering' Factors of camnet.
1st : ( Spekkio's factor ) It allows to check a lot of ground in matter of seconds which i agree is overpowering. A merc should be punished a bit for doing so . The 1-3 sec animation is a good idea . It would be nice if it took 1-3 sec to get in camnet and to get out of it also , to prevent being careless with camnet and to punish merc who won't hide while using it . This will narrow the use of camnet and the places where the merc will be able to active it while spies are being stealthy..... It would also require the merc to move to safe places to do so ----> Meaning he will be more exposed to cams and neck grabs. This will nerf camnet significantly but i guess than it will become a balanced item .
2nd : ( Westfall's Factor ) Aka Camping with camnet . I don't think this tactic is lame actually . Can you define what camping means ? For me it means standing in 1 place or in an area protecting something but isn't protecting the objectives the point of being a merc ? Than how can you consider camping being lame ? While you camp with camnet somewhere spies have only what i call 'passive' pressure which can be just ignored a lot of times . Camping with camnet means that atleast 1 merc is standing still and doing nothin ( Looking = doing nothing in this case ) which leads us to the fact that it can be easily countered with teamplay or just 2 spies doing something at the same time . You need 2 mercs to follow 2 spies. 1 can't follow both spies at the same time. Besides during Good competitive games it is more about pressuring your enemy into making a mistake than just waiting for it to happen out of luck.
Note : Don't mistake Spekkio's Factor and Westfall's factor . They are not one and the same . While i do think that using camnet should be punishable , still completely removing camnet or nerfing it to the point when 1 merc can't track or spot a spy is just well , wrong . If you remove it , you will dumb down the game a bit and will make few tactics 10 times more easier ( stealth AND aggro tactics ) . If you nerf it to the point when 1 merc can't track or spot a spy it will just become useless.
you're right, what you call "westfall's factor" is bullshit. but i think with proper cam placement the merc get's "punished" enough for using camnet (loosing one slot, being static and blind to his surroundings), adding delays to everything is simply gay. if it turns out that it can't be balanced with good placement (and lightning etc), i'd rather see a picture quality nerf, angle/movability nerf etc. then a stupid delay. afterall, using camnet in aggro and semi-aggro situations to keep the overview is one of it's main uses and that's a good thing for gameplay.
'Westfall's Factor' is not bullshit at all, it severely harms the game because you need to have two spies exposing themselves usually to effectively counter the tactic, and this game isn't about exposure, rather the opposite. As for what Snakebit said about following spies... spies come to you and as mercs you have to scout them out (unless they're taking an objective or something in which case it's obvious), not vice versa. You talk about a camping merc with camnet as if it is just 'passive', well consider the paths spies take - when mercs camp the ways forward in tandem with camnet, it's extremely easy to remove spies. Camping is part of the mercs gameplay and is not lame, however in the case of camnet it really is.
I think my idea about having surveillance rooms is good (someone just lifted it straight out of my earlier post lol). It would mean that mercs can't camp without isolating themselves away from the action, however it would give mercs the advantage of being able to work in tandem using the camera network to find the spies and remove them. However, I think camnet essentially defeats the objective of scouting the spies out of hiding in the first place, and I think it shouldn't be there at all. The game wont become 10 times easier, it will actually require mercs to think more about what they're doing and the way in which they do it, in what's ultimately a rewarding way.
Well, while you can say my factor is bullshit, which Rambo: you calling anything bullshit doesn't make me shutter given you're "I wants" that have been retarded this entire time on the forum....putting a nerf to Spekkio's factor, like adding 2-3 seconds to get in/out of camnet seems comparable to an energy drain. There is a "TIME" factor, which works for me. Still unsettled that an item can be infinite. I was hoping there would be some sort of a time penalty. Energy drain was the first thing that came to mind, and I was only suggesting it as a comparison to get away from Agent's gadget.
@ Snakebit: Your factors are cute. You defined camping just fine. Sitting in a spot, watching over an objective. This can be done with practically all of the objectives using camnet. I wanted a time limit on camnet because its ridiculous to have infinite use. That has absolutely no balancing qualities at all. Its unfortunate that this gadget is so needed to making finding a spy easier when a merc is already ridiculous as it is. With a handicap time of going in and out of camnet, it will make its use far more risky. I must have over looked that when Spekkio had said it.
Also, camnet being removed would save the game.
westfall, spekkio's suggestion is like 10000000 times better than your one, live with it. i still think it's a bad one, but at least it doesn't encourage camping on the spy side and affects players of all skill levels.
Players of all skill levels shouldn't even need camnet. Its just a handy helper, but I can understand if some of the players can't live without it. Whatever you need to make the game easier. And I never said that my idea was better than his...why don't you stick your nose further up his asshole...its not brown enough yet.
What about a pause while switcing camnet where you can see only noise with maybe a text like "Switching Feed"? The camnet eye would be active, so the Spies have 1/2/3 seconds to hide. During the pause, you can't switch off camnet, which leaves you EXTRA vulnerable for, let's say, 9 seconds (going into camnet, then looking at room A [normal vulnerability], switching to room B, looking at room B [normal] and leaving camnet). 3x3=9
Quote from: Westfall on September 11, 2008, 06:40:32 PM
Players of all skill levels shouldn't even need camnet. Its just a handy helper, but I can understand if some of the players can't live without it. Whatever you need to make the game easier. And I never said that my idea was better than his...why don't you stick your nose further up his asshole...its not brown enough yet.
my point was that good players cycle through camnet quite quickly so that a battery limit would only hurt the camnet noobs. oh, guess what, every gadget makes the game easier, genious. and i don't stick my nose up his asshole, i don't agree with everything he says. it's just that he talks less shit than you do.
Quote from: Rambo on September 11, 2008, 07:06:19 PM
Quote from: Westfall on September 11, 2008, 06:40:32 PM
Players of all skill levels shouldn't even need camnet. Its just a handy helper, but I can understand if some of the players can't live without it. Whatever you need to make the game easier. And I never said that my idea was better than his...why don't you stick your nose further up his asshole...its not brown enough yet.
my point was that good players cycle through camnet quite quickly so that a battery limit would only hurt the camnet noobs. oh, guess what, every gadget makes the game easier, genious. and i don't stick my nose up his asshole, i don't agree with everything he says. it's just that he talks less shit than you do.
LMAO...whatever you say...genius...............good players do not only cycle through camnet. you're so naive in your thought process. If anything, Spekkio spits and equal amount of shit that I do because we all have preferences that we would like.
Quote from: frvge on September 11, 2008, 06:44:58 PM
What about a pause while switcing camnet where you can see only noise with maybe a text like "Switching Feed"? The camnet eye would be active, so the Spies have 1/2/3 seconds to hide. During the pause, you can't switch off camnet, which leaves you EXTRA vulnerable for, let's say, 9 seconds (going into camnet, then looking at room A [normal vulnerability], switching to room B, looking at room B [normal] and leaving camnet). 3x3=9
yes
Quote from: frvge on September 11, 2008, 06:44:58 PM
What about a pause while switcing camnet where you can see only noise with maybe a text like "Switching Feed"? The camnet eye would be active, so the Spies have 1/2/3 seconds to hide. During the pause, you can't switch off camnet, which leaves you EXTRA vulnerable for, let's say, 9 seconds (going into camnet, then looking at room A [normal vulnerability], switching to room B, looking at room B [normal] and leaving camnet). 3x3=9
Scworld , i don't think that its a very good idea. This idea is bad in my opinion.
1st : 3 seconds between camera switches is a very big nerf to camnet. Lets think for example that there are 5 cameras . This means they will need 15 seconds to look throught them all which is a significant amount of time in SvM. You can get from 1 side of the map to the other in 20-30 seconds in most maps.
2nd : It will be impossible to check camnet in small rooms. Its very easy to evade camnet in small rooms like in orphanage for example . If spies will get 3 sec prep time there camnet will become TOTALLY useless on maps with small rooms + camnet .
3rd : In big rooms 3 seconds is not enough to hide ( camo dosen't count ) + to spot switching of camnet you will have to look at it and run at the same time which is .... almost not possible . I'll look at places where merc might come out not at the camera on top.
4th : It won't solve the problem of getting punished when using camnet . If you get 3 sec waiting time between switches of cameras and can always instantly come out , it will still be impossible to grab / cam in camnet . If you add additional 3 secs at end thats like 3x + 3 (x time you switch the camera) amount of time you spend which is 6 sec min , which is ..... well long already even with 1 use.
then make it 1.5 seconds... =/ or any other value. It doesnt have to be perfect, just balanced enough.
Quote from: frvge on September 11, 2008, 08:18:30 PM
then make it 1.5 seconds... =/ or any other value. It doesnt have to be perfect, just balanced enough.
It dosen't fix the problem Scworld. It will be difficult to punish people using camnet and only will increase the time which he will need to use camnet but still almost all the time he will be able to come out instanly.
The shorter you make the time , the harder it will be for people to evade camnet . 1.5 is very small amount of time and not enough to prevent camnet from seeing you. Will you be able to react in 1.5 + hide at the same time. I doubt that. Only camo will be a bit more useful i guess.
Lets fix the problem simply, remove it and just make a surveillance room. Camnet is a completely unbalanced gadget so why not make use of it in another way.
If that's not an option, I like your idea Frvge (except for the not being able to turn off while switching), even though I dislike camnet itself and we should just remove it and make a surveillance room IMO.
I think a merc should be able to look through all of the passive security cameras in the map, maybe via surveillance room, or the LCD screen on their arm however i am not sure as i havent really thought that far ahead. Atleast by approaching it like this, the level designers will be able to have more control as to what the merc can actually see. Ofcourse, there will be no special visions, and all function exactly how they do in the current versus mode (Shootable, chaffable, etc). The only problem with this is it could become way overpowered, depending on where / how many cams there are on each level, but obviously the level designers will think about this before placing them.
Random idea. Bash it, love it, change it, combine it, delete it, don't really care what becomes of it. Truth is, I thought some of it's aspects out as I was writing it, so it's nothing like a project of my lifetime.
Here's something that isn't exactly new, but isn't old either... What do you say if we'd just drop the camnet the way we know it and integrate that system to the one we already have: passive security. I know there was already a discussion that was partially touching the subject, but my version differs from that in some aspects.
Instead of camnet, I'd introduce this thing called... say, CamLink, that allows mercs to view through from any of the static security cams placed on the map. Ok, that's pretty basic, but here's the catch: If the gadget is selected, the normal cams (passive, causes an alarm if a spy gets in it's cone of vision) would be replaced with new, hardened ones (ones like we've already seen from the concepts/renders). Now these cams would be unbreakable, but they wouldn't give away the spy's location automatically on sight. These cams would move on their own, or just stare staticly at something. No player control in any way. However, if the gadget was not selected, the cameras would behave the way they always have.
In a way this could cause a lot of spies going very agressively and carelessly, but in doing so they'd also risk their discression.
Now there are some things that would have to be established in order for this to work. First, Cameras would have to be placed in spots where bypassing them under normal conditions would be possible or extremely hard. (Moving cameras, tight angles like in corridor C in factory). As mercs can't be 100% aware at all times there would be balance issues if spies would get past areas, that would normally require disabled security.
Secondly, there should be no cameras near objectives, if they are supposed to lock the objective upon detection. Passive security devices near objectives should be limited into lasers or motion sensors.
TBH I don't really care how things will end up being in PS, but if I had to choose, I'd dish camnet completely and just add more passive security maintaining the premiter.
Did you read the latest posts before you posted? I just posted the exact same idea...lol not to worry.
The passive cameras should still be shootable when being used, otherwise we could have the same issue as the current camnet (indestructuble). When not being used they should still detect spies in there detection cone. The only difference is mercs can see through them. They shouldn\'t be able to control them.
Quote from: ChickenSkin on September 11, 2008, 11:04:27 PM
Did you read the latest posts before you posted? I just posted the exact same idea...lol not to worry.
The passive cameras should still be shootable when being used, otherwise we could have the same issue as the current camnet (indestructuble). When not being used they should still detect spies in there detection cone. The only difference is mercs can see through them. They shouldn\'t be able to control them.
Haha, appaerently. What you said however was exactly what was suggested before, and it led to certain problems.
If you would force the spies to shoot the cams out in order to advance, mercs could simply go into the surveillance room, or use whatever gadget needed to view through the cams. Then, they would see one of the cameras eliminated, and therefore know where the spy was, or determine his likely course of advance. I kept it essential in my post that the cam system would not create problems like these, hence I said it wasn't completely new idea.
Quote from: Kurbutti on September 11, 2008, 11:12:08 PM
Quote from: ChickenSkin on September 11, 2008, 11:04:27 PM
Did you read the latest posts before you posted? I just posted the exact same idea...lol not to worry.
The passive cameras should still be shootable when being used, otherwise we could have the same issue as the current camnet (indestructuble). When not being used they should still detect spies in there detection cone. The only difference is mercs can see through them. They shouldn\\\\\\\'t be able to control them.
Haha, appaerently. What you said however is exactly what was suggested before, and it led to certain problems.
If you would force the spies to shoot the cams out in order to advance, mercs could simply go into the surveillance room, or use whatever gadget needed to view through the cams. Then, they would see one of the cameras eliminated, and therefore know where the spy was, or determine his likely course of advance. I kept it essential in my post that the cam system would not create problems like these, hence I said it wasn\\\'t completely new idea.
Hopefully, if put in the right places, spies will be able to avoid the moving cameras simply by moving at the right time. For the static cameras, they can either be shoot out the camera (and be detected), or better, use the EMP device which I saw in another thread (awesome idea) to freeze the live feed of the camera (a frozen camera will show the last frame before frozen by the EMP device), thus fooling mercs and allowing spies to easily slip by, undetected.
what about this (kinda summed up and simplified the suggestions, this is my idea of well-balanced passive security/camnet after a talk with westfall and kurbutti):
-combination of moving/bypassable passive security camers, bypassable (slow-walk) motion sensors and bypassable lasers (like most are in ct), amount somewhere in between ct playground and pt castle
-triggering the alarm locks down close objectives and shuts doors pt style
-camnet allows you to link into any security cam and to pan freely in the angles the cam normally does, the selected cam doesn't trigger any alarms
-if a cam is disabled by SS or chaff, it only shows static noise
-security room on some maps that allow you to do the same thing plus see disabled motion sensors/lasers and provides ammo/medkit/remote controls
-picture quality is that bad that it's impossible to see some1 using camo in 10m distance
I'm happy to inform you that recent discoveries (actually this very week) made it technically possible to look through security cameras. In theory. That does NOT mean that we'll implement it. Just a small heads-up. ;)
Foook jo.... Wait, did you say it was possible? Oh. That's great news.
Quote from: Rambo on September 12, 2008, 12:30:07 AM
-camnet allows you to link into any security cam and to move it freely.
This is the only thing I dont like. Do you mean static cameras aswell? It would make it very hard for spies to get around, and the mercs would be able to cover too much level space IMO. Think about how many cameras there are on the current maps. Alot. By making these freely movable, youd have coverage of practically the whole map. Atleast by making them uncontrollable, spies will know when to move based on the camera position, and there will always be blind spots so long the cameras are uncontrolled (ie you can sneak past when its not facing your direction/the direction you want to travel). If they were controlled, they would be way to unpredictable, and make the spies jobs hard to get around (stealthily ofcourse) they already have enough trouble avoiding two mercenaries, let alone the unpredictable cams. Everything else seems fine though Rambo. Thanks for coming up with some extra ideas and stuff :].
PS: Oh and great news about it all being possible.
Of course. We're working hard and we're getting some cool results. Which is why the next sneakpeek for the DC-thread will be so kickass. ;)
that are nice news, frvge. even if it doesn't make it as a solid gameplay-element, it will be really fancy to see live pictures on the monitors =)
I honestly don't find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? That's like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.
Snakebit, I think Frvge's solution does tackle the problem with camnet. Good players are extremely efficient with camnet -- in about 1-2 seconds, you can pretty much scan the entire map and be back to hunting. If you add a delay somewhere, either in initial activation/deactivation or even with cycling through each camera, you can nerf it quite a bit. It will still be stupidly imbalanced due to being able to get a bird's eye view of spies without making yourself too vulnerable, but the current counter to that will be exaggerated more.
well, the cams have only a quite small detection cone and move in predictable patterns, so with this method you could get a stealth player trying to sneak past it or see where there are security failures (and where not). depending on the amount and placement of cams on the map this might be enough to make it worth a slot, and if not, what's the big deal?
If you look at the passive security camera's placements in CT, you'll notice that they're almost unexceptionally angled in a way that directly doesn't prevent you from sneaking past them. They merely forge some set route that you gotta follow if you don't want to disable them straight away - as does camnet, so they're mere obstacles, unless cameras are protecting an objective. Ok, ok, I KNOW, you can't kill camnet.
So I honestly can't think of any better solution to balance camnet except to allow the ability to look through regular security cams, replacing them. Take factory's corridor C as an example. Any good spy can bunnyhop past the camears there and access MR without causing an alarm. The only reason why the camnet is there is that you can look for some bunnies. Cameras there aren't doing anything just fine.
Quote from: Kurbutti on September 12, 2008, 02:19:54 AM
If you look at the passive security camera's placements in CT, you'll notice that they're almost unexceptionally angled in a way that directly doesn't prevent you from sneaking past them. They merely forge some set route that you gotta follow if you don't want to disable them straight away - as does camnet, so they're mere obstacles, unless cameras are protecting an objective. Ok, ok, I KNOW, you can't kill camnet.
So I honestly can't think of any better solution to balance camnet except to allow the ability to look through regular security cams, replacing them. Take factory's corridor C as an example. Any good spy can bunnyhop past the camears there and access MR without causing an alarm. The only reason why the camnet is there is that you can look for some bunnies. Cameras there aren't doing anything just fine.
This is why you have mines and spy traps to supplement the defense that is already present in the map.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 02:26:29 AM
This is why you have mines and spy traps to supplement the defense that is already present in the map.
Are we talking about an optimal scenario, or just arguing if it's feasible to spend all your equipment in order to make up for the useless security?
First of all, the security isn't useless. If you come by while "bunnies" are in the corridors, those bunnies are probably going to trip a camera and lockdown the objectives for 20 seconds. Problem is that most maps don't have enough cameras and/or lasers for these bunnies to trip, so they can just run around in circles tap-hacking things until they get something.
Secondly, the security in a map isn't meant to be this dungeon of doom that is impossible to get passed while no one is watching. It's meant to support the merc's patrolling.
Thirdly, using spy traps and/or mines boost the power of the security already there, without the downside of having to stop and become completely unaware of your surroundings.
I know that's a foreign concept to a lot of people because almost no one takes spy traps, but there is a way to guard maps without camnet or double backpack.
When presented between looking through a camera that is already there and will lock objectives if tripped, or being able to place more stuff to track and kill the spy, I can't see why anyone would choose the former.
with eax superhearing gone and with hopefully a little more passive security, it will be way harder to tell where a security failure was caused, so linking into the security network might come in handy.
also, it doesn't give you too few information. let's take factory as an example: i'd use a gadget like the suggested one because it would let me observe 2 coop spots and 3 out of 4 main connections between the big rooms.
if linking into the cams isn't enough to make it an attractive gadget to some players, maybe this camnet-replacement should also allow linking to other passive security elements or even allow some control of lockdown-doors and other interactive map elements.
I use spytraps all the time. I don't care how well it works, it really makes the game that I want to play, setting up and guarding stuff. If that makes sense.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 01:29:07 AM
I honestly dont find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? Thats like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.
Im going to have to kindly disagree on this one. Whilst the game does it OK, I still think this could be beneficial to the merc. For example, the cameras will not be able to detect spies outside of a certain radius, however its possible that the spies can still be seen through the camera, just too far away to be detected. As a mercenary, the game doesnt tell you which camera has been triggered either, not through some sort of HUD alert. It only does this on the spy side iirc.
in case of an alarm it tells both sides the exact location, but in case of a security failure the mercs get only an universal message.
Quote from: Rambo on September 12, 2008, 11:22:59 AM
in case of an alarm it tells both sides the exact location, but in case of a security failure the mercs get only an universal message.
Oh sorry, its been a few yrs since i played it.
Quote from: ChickenSkin on September 12, 2008, 09:15:51 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 01:29:07 AM
I honestly dont find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? Thats like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.
Im going to have to kindly disagree on this one. Whilst the game does it OK, I still think this could be beneficial to the merc. For example, the cameras will not be able to detect spies outside of a certain radius, however its possible that the spies can still be seen through the camera, just too far away to be detected. As a mercenary, the game doesnt tell you which camera has been triggered either, not through some sort of HUD alert. It only does this on the spy side iirc.
I don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 10:55:58 PM
Quote from: ChickenSkin on September 12, 2008, 09:15:51 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 01:29:07 AM
I honestly dont find the ability to look through passive cams very valuable. Why would you want to manually control something that the computer does just fine? Thats like adding a key combination to reload your weapon vice just pressing R and letting the game do it for you.
Im going to have to kindly disagree on this one. Whilst the game does it OK, I still think this could be beneficial to the merc. For example, the cameras will not be able to detect spies outside of a certain radius, however its possible that the spies can still be seen through the camera, just too far away to be detected. As a mercenary, the game doesnt tell you which camera has been triggered either, not through some sort of HUD alert. It only does this on the spy side iirc.
I don\\\\\\\'t think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that\\\\\\\'s the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.
I agree, it basically gives away the spies position. Thats how I think the EMP gadget could be useful in this sort of scenario, so instead of shooting it out you can just freeze the camera (when its frozen it will play maybe the last 10 seconds of the camera reel before being frozen) to fool the merc, and allowing spies to sneak past without having to shoot the camera. You can only freeze the camera for as long as the EMP gadget lasts, and the gun has to be pointed at the camera at all times for it to stay frozen. A solo spy will be able to accomplish this on his own. Im just throwing ideas out here, tossing them up, not really thinking much about them, so there could be thousands of flaws in my suggestions. Im not saying any of them are perfect and am welcome to any other suggestions.
You then you need the EMP to counter camnet? Stupid.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 12, 2008, 03:09:29 AM
First of all, the security isn't useless. If you come by while "bunnies" are in the corridors, those bunnies are probably going to trip a camera and lockdown the objectives for 20 seconds. Problem is that most maps don't have enough cameras and/or lasers for these bunnies to trip, so they can just run around in circles tap-hacking things until they get something.
I was referring to security in a more collective way. I agree that security can situationally be beneficial, but anything next to the objective not causing an lockdown is simply inane. All in all, I'm all for having more security within the map.
QuoteSecondly, the security in a map isn't meant to be this dungeon of doom that is impossible to get passed while no one is watching. It's meant to support the merc's patrolling.
I agree, but my goal was rather to point out the differing concepts encapsuled witin different forms of passive security. Lasers and motion sensors stationed at the outer premiter and objectives, while the interior would be more camera orientated, allowing room for faster and slower playstyles. Maybe with a few fluctuating laser spots, too.
QuoteThirdly, using spy traps and/or mines boost the power of the security already there, without the downside of having to stop and become completely unaware of your surroundings.
I know that's a foreign concept to a lot of people because almost no one takes spy traps, but there is a way to guard maps without camnet or double backpack.
I'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.
QuoteWhen presented between looking through a camera that is already there and will lock objectives if tripped, or being able to place more stuff to track and kill the spy, I can't see why anyone would choose the former.
As for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.
QuoteI'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.
The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.
Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.
QuoteAs for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.
I disagree, and I would be interested to test out even motion sensors locking objectives, so long as you can get past them undetected by going slowly. If PS is going to move away from the shock-run-tap and hack gameplay that is so prevalant in CT, then security needs to lock stuff. For example, how many people would still employ the run around tactic if the cameras in the main corridors locked the garden laptop (or possibly even the entire floor)?
In talking to whatever-his-name is over xfire, I realized that there is one key use to a camnet that feeds into the security cameras: anytime you get a security failure, you can flip through it to find out exactly which camera the spy shot out. I don't think that's something the mercs should be able to do.
QuoteI don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.
why not? you could do fake-failures, something with snares (dunno yet) etc. i also think every tripped passive security should lock objectives for quite a while, so there's a huge difference. it's also that if the pass. sec. cams are the replacement for camnet, the merc is blind in that area if the cam get's tazed, so he should at least get some information.
QuoteThe way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.
Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.
this system is way too complex. besides, running around like a maniac to harvest traps shouldn't be a good idea in the first place. if there was more passive security (especially with lock-down doors), no longer taze-timer for the host and either boosted mines/nerfed chaff, running around like that would be way more risky to begin with. i don't think mutually removing them should be nerfed; instead, i'd make them harder to see with thermal vision. if they are only clearly visible in 3-5m distance, people would be more likely to run into them without even noticing, and harvesting would be harder because you don't even know where the others are. flipping on thermal vision for 1 second/room and see basically everything is clearly op.
What about Trackers which tag the Spy, and when the Spy runs through a second one, he's instantly killed (or loses a lot of health)? Bit like the two pills for euthanizing.
Quote from: KurbuttiI'm aware that the spytraps drastically lack usefulness in CT, but I have some high hopes for PS, provided it fixes the chaff through wall problem and "trap harvesting". Also, I'd increase the trap limit from three to four. By that I mean you can have four traps on a map simultaneously, but you're gonna have to pick up the extra from your partner. Or then we stick with the default CT values, since the chaff overhaul as such is going to change things. Let alone players not being able to remove the tag, if it gets implemented.
Quote from: Spekkio
The way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.
There are at least three ways to fix this:
1) Your suggestion
2) When a trap has been tripped, all other spy traps become indestructible for the tagged spy for the duration of the tag. No removal can be done, as there can be only one tag at a time/spy.
The benefits of this solution over yours would be the elimated profit from running around and getting rid of the other traps, because they can't be tripped/removed. Granted, stacking puts spies in a considerable disadvantage but you would still risk losing all the traps in the process. Furthermore, keep in mind that after tripping one trap the spy is most likely inside the premiter; this usually means that the other traps can be disabled with SS and they may not block paths once within the corridors.
3) Sort of a combination of the two.
-Numerous traps can be tripped on a single spy.
-Once a spy has been tagged by one, others become indestructible.
-The time will stack exactly like you said in your example, but removal can be done only once, and not at all, if there is only one trap activated. So if a spy tags two, his mate can remove 1/2 of the duration. If the spy trips three, he could shorten the duration by 1/3. The stacking would be tied with the global timer as you presented so dying would not affect it. This doesn't mean that removal would reset as the spy dies, however.
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Quote from: KurbuttiAs for the camnet dilemma, I stated in my previous post that the cameras should not be combined into security isolation zones, or lock objectives; that's a job for lasers and motion sensors, because they're generally more reliable. They'd merely be tools for detecting spy's movement throughout the map - as camnet should. The deal is as follows: Merc trades patrol time for increased preception, and by doing so risks his own neck by standing still. There are a plethora of ways to balance this process already mentioned, so I won't go through that here anymore. And just to dissolve confusion I'd like to emphasize, that cameras shouldn't be put in places such as objective areas - they're just for monitoring areas that allow spies to move fast from point A to point B.
Quote from: SpekkioI disagree, and I would be interested to test out even motion sensors locking objectives, so long as you can get past them undetected by going slowly. If PS is going to move away from the shock-run-tap and hack gameplay that is so prevalant in CT, then security needs to lock stuff. For example, how many people would still employ the run around tactic if the cameras in the main corridors locked the garden laptop (or possibly even the entire floor)?
I don't like the idea of having every security device lock down every objective. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, although any security device within 10 second's mercrun away from the nearest objective should lock it, so spies can't ignore them and run for a hack, and even be able to finish it before the merc gets there.
Motion sensors 5 meters away from objectives that beep 2 seconds before objective is being hacked are useless. To straighten things out, ANYTHING that's supposed to guard objectives ought to have zero tolerance towards the spy. There would be few things as stupid has having a motion sensor somewhere that you can bybass by crawling, or a camera that doesn't detect you instantly. Also, security devices that are not directly aligned to objectives should isolate the area at most, not make a spy unable to hack on the other side of the map.
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Quote from: SpekkioI don't think the mercs should be able to see which camera was shot out. If that's the case, you might as well just have ignored it and ran through it.
Quote from: Rambowhy not? you could do fake-failures, something with snares (dunno yet) etc. i also think every tripped passive security should lock objectives for quite a while, so there's a huge difference. it's also that if the pass. sec. cams are the replacement for camnet, the merc is blind in that area if the cam get's tazed, so he should at least get some information.
Why wouldn't anyone want to do such thing, if there's a way to get past it in the first place? Also, allowing mercs to see which camera is down gives them a good idea where the spy is and what's his most likely course. I see no use for this feature spy-side.
Another problem is that spy would have to move withing an eyesight from the camera, and that deviates him from his objective and risks his life as he most likely has to place himself around merc-accessible areas. Besides, snaring the cameras would be a waste unless you could activate it later.
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Quote from: SpekkioThe way to eliminate "trap harvesting" is to make spy traps stack; ie, you run through 1 spy trap then you're tagged for 1:30, two then it ups to 1:30 + whatever time you have left on the first one, three then another 1:30 more, etc. If your partner "removes" a spy trap, it reduces the timer by 1:30. Also, limit the removal to once per every so many minutes (like 2-3), put it on a global timer, and add a 2 second removal animation.
Bam: no more aimlessly running through tons of spy traps and getting them all instantly removed by a partner waiting in a safety vent somewhere.
Quote from: Rambothis system is way too complex. besides, running around like a maniac to harvest traps shouldn't be a good idea in the first place. if there was more passive security (especially with lock-down doors), no longer taze-timer for the host and either boosted mines/nerfed chaff, running around like that would be way more risky to begin with. i don't think mutually removing them should be nerfed; instead, i'd make them harder to see with thermal vision. if they are only clearly visible in 3-5m distance, people would be more likely to run into them without even noticing, and harvesting would be harder because you don't even know where the others are. flipping on thermal vision for 1 second/room and see basically everything is clearly op.
First of all, it's not very complex, and even if it was, it will prove the necessity of a good tutorial for this game.
Second of all, you can't tell how people should, or will play the game.
Thirdly, the main issue with traps is that they can be removed in a ridiculously easy way.
Finally, I don't think thermal needs other nerfs than decreasing it's resolution and adding some blur into rapid movement.
i'd only change two things:
-once you're trapped, running through other spy traps won't set them off
-thermal vision only showing lasers from up close (something like the more far away you are the smaller the color difference gets)
i'm strictly against adding additional timers, delays, motion blour or other bullshit.
regarding motion sensors, i think we need 2 different models that can easily be seperated by look:
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 06:57:40 PM
i'd only change two things:
-once you're trapped, running through other spy traps won't set them off
As such this isnät good enough. Being able to remove them is the core of the problem.
Quote-thermal vision only showing lasers from up close (something like the more far away you are the smaller the color difference gets
Poor visual quality and motion blur would effectively mask any lasers in the distance. The last thing I'll want to see is lasers appearing right in fron of me.
Quotei'm strictly against adding additional timers, delays, motion blour or other bullshit.
This is the core mechanic present with my and Spekkio's fixes. I don't see anything wrong with it, either.
Quoteregarding motion sensors, i think we need 2 different models that can easily be seperated by look:
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk
There would be no need for different models. You could simply change the flash colour. Green/Red for one, Blue/Red for another. I'm not sure if this necessary since I think it should be established, that the security near objective has zero tolerance.
the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 07:32:52 PM
the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.
I strongly disagree.
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 06:57:40 PM
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk
0.3 meter is too little.
It could only be used for vents then ::)
don't be silly and read my post again before you delete yours (little hint: there's a difference between range and tolerance)
Ok assume i still don't get it.
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 06:57:40 PM
model A: range 3-5m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3m
model B: range 10-15m, no tolerance to any movement over 0.3 and slow-walk
m is meters
Please explain what 0.3 stands for then :)
Quote from: Kurbutti on September 13, 2008, 08:12:11 PM
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 07:32:52 PM
the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.
I strongly disagree.
As do I.
On top of that, even if they are noticeable, the effectiveness of making the spy take another route is gone. "I saws a spy trap! *Runs through it, runs to partner, spy trap off.*" Repeat as necessary until all traps are gone in the first two minutes of the round.
Quote2) When a trap has been tripped, all other spy traps become indestructible for the tagged spy for the duration of the tag. No removal can be done, as there can be only one tag at a time/spy.
The benefits of this solution over yours would be the elimated profit from running around and getting rid of the other traps, because they can't be tripped/removed. Granted, stacking puts spies in a considerable disadvantage but you would still risk losing all the traps in the process. Furthermore, keep in mind that after tripping one trap the spy is most likely inside the premiter; this usually means that the other traps can be disabled with SS and they may not block paths once within the corridors.
It'd be interesting to explore other options. My issue with this idea is it might be confusing and/or frustrating when you trip a spy trap unknowingly and don't know why you can't shoot out the one you do see.
spekkio/kurbutti: why do you disagree?
Quote from: Rambo on September 14, 2008, 02:51:08 AM
spekkio/kurbutti: why do you disagree?
Perhaps if you actually used spy traps and spy bullets, you'd already know why your diagnosis of the problem is way off. Seriously, you need to stfu about this topic until you decide to use this stuff more.
Quote from: Kurbutti2) When a trap has been tripped, all other spy traps become indestructible for the tagged spy for the duration of the tag. No removal can be done, as there can be only one tag at a time/spy.
The benefits of this solution over yours would be the elimated profit from running around and getting rid of the other traps, because they can't be tripped/removed. Granted, stacking puts spies in a considerable disadvantage but you would still risk losing all the traps in the process. Furthermore, keep in mind that after tripping one trap the spy is most likely inside the premiter; this usually means that the other traps can be disabled with SS and they may not block paths once within the corridors.
Quote from: SpekkioIt'd be interesting to explore other options. My issue with this idea is it might be confusing and/or frustrating when you trip a spy trap unknowingly and don't know why you can't shoot out the one you do see.
True, although I've rarely made it that far under those circumstances. Mercs coming my way with blues on is usually enough to cause this "Shit, I think I'm spytrapped!" -feeling, ha. I admit that this might become more visible during chases, but I'd trust people would eventually learn to deal with this disability. In the end, you are given a chance to memorize their locations that can be a potential help in late game.
Also, we could make spytraps notify the spy upon detection like PD does.
Quote from: Rambospekkio/kurbutti: why do you disagree?
It's hard to argue for my point if I don't know exactly upon which setting you place your scenario. Anyway, I'm too tired right now to come up with any readable content, but I'll reply for you later on.
QuoteAlso, we could make spytraps notify the spy upon detection like PD does.
Nah, part of their goodness is that the spy will never know he hit it.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2008, 06:33:33 AM
QuoteAlso, we could make spytraps notify the spy upon detection like PD does.
Nah, part of their goodness is that the spy will never know he hit it.
Agreed. If a spy knew he has just been trapped, he will just camp until it stops tracking him. The main problem is spytraps are just too easy to see. If you make the picture quality of thermal worse and lower the opacity of the spybullet laser, maybe add some motion blur to the thermal vision so that its near impossible to see a trap in thermal vision when running you would probably see a lot more players getting trapped.
That is NOT the main problem. Jeez.
i may not have much experience with them as a merc, but i do have enough on the spy side to know that their whole use in ct against good players is blocking off some paths that you can count on one hand due to their incredible long range. it's definitely not tracking spies because no1 runs into them in the first place if he can see them from 100m distance instantly. i also know that in many places their use overlaps with poison mines which is also a bad thing (but spytraps aren't to blame for that; the existence of poison mines is).
Quote from: Rambo on September 14, 2008, 03:02:19 PM
i may not have much experience with them as a merc, but i do have enough on the spy side to know that their whole use in ct against good players is blocking off some paths that you can count on one hand due to their incredible long range. it's definitely not tracking spies because no1 runs into them in the first place if he can see them from 100m distance instantly. i also know that in many places their use overlaps with poison mines which is also a bad thing (but spytraps aren't to blame for that; the existence of poison mines is).
The path can be opened for later use if the "good players" are sticking together...one walks through and the other takes it off. BAM, path opened for later use.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2008, 01:59:27 PM
That is NOT the main problem. Jeez.
Its definately one of them.
If you are all getting pissed because spies are purposely getting trapped then having their partner take it off instantly, then why not just make them irremovable? (As in partners cant take them off, not you cant remove them from the walls) If you run into a trap you should have to deal with the consequences. There are plenty of ways to avoid them already, like diving under/over them, chaffing or shooting them. So what if chaffs dont work through walls, you can always just shoot one round the corner. There is really no excuse for a spy to get trapped (unless forced in a redhotaction gun chase).
Because then you make the game rely too much on having chaff. Having a takeoff, but one that's limited, allows the spies to get through traps if they absolutely must.
Also, a sneaky spy isn't going to have thermal on 100% of the time because he shows up on EMF. But given the most recent metagame of just running around constantly, yes you can keep thermal on most of the time.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2008, 09:55:10 PM
Because then you make the game rely too much on having chaff. Having a takeoff, but one that\\\'s limited, allows the spies to get through traps if they absolutely must.
Also, a sneaky spy isn\\\'t going to have thermal on 100% of the time because he shows up on EMF. But given the most recent metagame of just running around constantly, yes you can keep thermal on most of the time.
Ah yeh good point.
What about somesort of time barrier, say you have to be tagged for 30 seconds before it can be removed. Once tagged you cant get retagged, until the other tag has expired?
QuoteThe path can be opened for later use if the "good players" are sticking together...one walks through and the other takes it off. BAM, path opened for later use.
that's not my point. my point is that blocking paths isn't the purpose of spytraps, it's tracking spies. if you wanna block a pathway, you should use mines.
QuoteBecause then you make the game rely too much on having chaff. Having a takeoff, but one that's limited, allows the spies to get through traps if they absolutely must.
that's why i'd boost spytraps not by amount, but by less visibility. if you simply increase the amount you block even more pathways enforcing either a gadget counter game with chaff or more mutual removing or even harvesting.
QuoteAlso, a sneaky spy isn't going to have thermal on 100% of the time because he shows up on EMF. But given the most recent metagame of just running around constantly, yes you can keep thermal on most of the time.
it makes no difference if you switch on thermal for 1s or all the time as you can instantly see every trap within 50m...
Quotewhy not just make them irremovable?
that would actually be the best solution as meeting up already grants you the big advantage of instantly healing each other, countering poison and evening out your eq loadout. to make up for this, i'd lower the spytraps timer a little bit.
SvM and PS are are Steath Action games (note action is there too ) . If you make EVERY detection device lock objectives than aggro would become almost non existent because well runing around won't be that good anymore . taz-hack-run would be very hard to do or impossible because there are usually many sensors + cams near objectives and on your way there . If you remove aggro than what will remain of the game ? Full stealth ????? Is full stealth that good ? I actually don't think so . A merc waiting for spies for 5-6 min is BORING ... very boring .... Thats why the game has to have SOME action elements in it . Direct incouters are neccecary .
Spy traps are balanced at the moment in ct . I think . 1st of all you can refill them with backpack . 2nd : You can not only place spy traps but also alarm snairs which in different places have a lot of uses . A lot of people forget about alarm snairs in the game but they are actually useful. Don't say that the loud sound makes it eazy to find them , because it dosen't if it's well planted + it makes the spy waste a lot of time looking for them and trying to not get spoted by them during which he can be easily spoted by a merc .
Spy bullets are also okay in ct . Well you can fix the bug that dosen't allow to see merc for some people [ I never had this bug in like.... all the time i played ] . I always use spy bullets when i play as a spy and i don't have any problems usually . Ofcourse they will run out eventually but still i think that 5 is the optimal ammount for 4 lives . If you aggro it is obviouse you gonna run out of equipment + If you stealth and put a spy bullet on every corner ofcourse you gonna run out of them. It is not how you supposed to use them . Either stick them to a place where mercs always run around / or stick it on them. 5 * 1. 30 - 7.30......
If you make endless amount of spy bullits or make their time endless then it will be impossible for merc to hide from them.... There are literally 100000000 places to plant them and some of them are UNSHOOTABLE by the merc. So they must have a time limit and an amount to prevent the spy from just seeing all map.
Edit : If you make spy bullet stay on a merc for 1.30 without the means to remove it than it will become very imbalanced . HBS allows you to see the spy in well 15 meter range but in no means it allows you to see the merc everywhere on the map . If the spy bullet becomes unremovable than you will be able to see BOTH mercs ALL the game which is IMBALANCED ? each life has 5 bullets thats 7.30 mins 7.30*4 = 30 min ? / 2 = 15 min each merc
I think the gist of the idea was to make spy bullets non-removable if they are on a merc.
@snakebit: i don't wanna go back to pt style passive security castles, but in ct there is definitely too few passive security. it's a bad thing that taze-hack-run tactics are the most efficient on most ct maps.
regarding spytraps, you're right that presence detectors are underestimated and are indeed a great tool. unlike the original spytraps, they are hard to find which seperates them from mines.
regarding bullets, if you don't allow mutual removal then you have to nerf the timer/range and boost the timer/range when they are on the floor, because otherwise there would be almost no reason to place them anywhere else besides on the merc.
PT was just fine.
Quote from: Rambo on September 13, 2008, 07:32:52 PM
the core of the problem is that it's so easy to see spytraps that in 90% of the games no good player runs into any by accident, and if he's pressured to run into any, he always knows. it's also a problem that with chaff working through walls, most spytrap places suck as they can be bypassed in a matter of seconds. mutual removal isn't that strong unless you go harvesting which would be prevented by less visibility and not tagging a tagged spy. if one spy runs into a trap and wants to remove it, he has to waste about 20-30 seconds in average and tell the mercs the location of his mate, too, so that's balanced.
Quoteblocking paths isn't the purpose of spytraps, it's tracking spies. if you wanna block a pathway, you should use mines.
I still disagree with these statements.
Spytraps don't "block" you in any possible way. A cleverly placed spy trap presents you a choice: Either go fast and trip it, or find a way around and risk being found and eradicated by the mercs on patrol. Even if you survive, you'll loose a few seconds of your precious time in doing so. There are no dead ends in any merc-accessible areas, so there's always a way to circle them. If a spy is pressured to run through it it, then there is a good chance he's already lost the game, or ST's are a lesser problem compared to merc running on his heels.
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Quote from: Snakebit. on September 15, 2008, 10:20:23 AM
SvM and PS are are Steath Action games (note action is there too ) . If you make EVERY detection device lock objectives than aggro would become almost non existent because well runing around won't be that good anymore . taz-hack-run would be very hard to do or impossible because there are usually many sensors + cams near objectives and on your way there . If you remove aggro than what will remain of the game ? Full stealth Huh?? Is full stealth that good ? I actually don't think so . A merc waiting for spies for 5-6 min is BORING ... very boring .... Thats why the game has to have SOME action elements in it . Direct incouters are neccecary .
For me, the whole glamour of the game is in the rollercoaster of action and downtime. I don't think we should let everything pull an autocannon out from the wall, but objectives ought to be better protected, to prevent chaff + hack 4 secs + shock + flash + run * repeat -gameplay. Allowing spies run roam freely around the map ignoring every security device is boring and dumb.
QuoteSpy traps are balanced at the moment in ct . I think . 1st of all you can refill them with backpack
Yet I disagree. I can't believe how many times this has to be stated, but currently it
wouldn't matter how many traps you can place in the map. Whether it'd be 3 or 3 million, all it takes is a x millisecond procedure and they'd all be gone. So the problem remains as follows: It's ridiculously easy to get rid of the tags.
QuoteSpy traps are balanced at the moment in ct . I think . 1st of all you can refill them with backpack . 2nd : You can not only place spy traps but also alarm snairs which in different places have a lot of uses . A lot of people forget about alarm snairs in the game but they are actually useful. Don't say that the loud sound makes it eazy to find them , because it dosen't if it's well planted + it makes the spy waste a lot of time looking for them and trying to not get spoted by them during which he can be easily spoted by a merc .
???
QuoteSpy bullets are also okay in ct . Well you can fix the bug that dosen't allow to see merc for some people [ I never had this bug in like.... all the time i played ] . I always use spy bullets when i play as a spy and i don't have any problems usually . Ofcourse they will run out eventually but still i think that 5 is the optimal ammount for 4 lives . If you aggro it is obviouse you gonna run out of equipment + If you stealth and put a spy bullet on every corner ofcourse you gonna run out of them. It is not how you supposed to use them . Either stick them to a place where mercs always run around / or stick it on them. 5 * 1. 30 - 7.30......
No, spybullets are not okay in CT, mainly for the same reasons as spy traps: Both are ridiculously easy to remove. Furthermore, bullets lack an aspect in practicality due to their ineffectiviness as a forward warning system. So hereby I'd like to re-propose my change for the bullets, in addition to the ones touching their removal:
Quote from: Kurbutti on September 11, 2008, 10:56:45 PM
Just make bullets track one full minute, and hibernate whenever there isn't any activity around them. They'd still be useful in tough spots but wouldn't fail as a forward warning system either.
Quote from: SnakebitIf you make endless amount of spy bullits or make their time endless then it will be impossible for merc to hide from them.... There are literally 100000000 places to plant them and some of them are UNSHOOTABLE by the merc. So they must have a time limit and an amount to prevent the spy from just seeing all map.
Lucky for you, currently there is no initiative to make them infinite in number, nor in duration.
Quote
Edit : If you make spy bullet stay on a merc for 1.30 without the means to remove it than it will become very imbalanced . HBS allows you to see the spy in well 15 meter range but in no means it allows you to see the merc everywhere on the map . If the spy bullet becomes unremovable than you will be able to see BOTH mercs ALL the game which is IMBALANCED ? each life has 5 bullets thats 7.30 mins 7.30*4 = 30 min ? / 2 = 15 min each merc
First of all, you won't see where the merc is all the time. He's just an arrow at some point around your radar circle if he's further than 15 meters from you. Second of all, SB's will not allow you to actively track the mercs unless they're tagged. This is a very significant drawback, and one of the reasos that make this gadged both interesting and unique as a recon tool. And like I quoted myself, tag time should be reduced to compensate for the lack or removability.
Also, how is the current system suddenly not that "imbalanced", if both mercs have been tagged, but split because they're busy hunting spies?
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Quote from: Westfall
I think the gist of the idea was to make spy bullets non-removable if they are on a merc.
QFE. In addition, (given traps are realized in "my way"), I'd suggest they don't appear on EMF unless merc is near enough => bullet is transmitting actively transmitting his location.
EDIT: At least posting bullshit makes me see what's utterly wrong in my English. :-P
QuoteJust make bullets track one full minute, and hibernate whenever there isn't any activity around them. They'd still be useful in tough spots but wouldn't fail as a forward warning system either.
QuoteI think the gist of the idea was to make spy bullets non-removable if they are on a merc.
QuoteIn addition(...) I'd suggest they don't appear on EMF unless merc is near enough => bullet is transmitting actively transmitting his location.
great suggestion so far, can't see anything wrong with it.
regarding spytraps:
-remove poison mines from the game
-remove mutual trap removal from the game
-make spytraps a lot less or even in-visible in thermal vision in med/far distance and when moving quickly
-increase amount of simultaniously placable traps (and starting amount) to 5
-lower tracking timer to 1 minute
-running through other spytraps while trapped simply resets the timer to 1 minute
Kurbutti is wise. I agree with him 100%.
QuoteFirst of all, you won't see where the merc is all the time. He's just an arrow at some point around your radar circle. if he's further than 15 meters from you. Second of all, SB's will not allow you to actively track the mercs unless they're tagged. This is a very significant drawback, and one of the reasos that make this gadged both interesting and unique as a recon tool. And like I quoted myself, tag time should be reduced to compensate for the lack or removability.
I wanted to emphasize this part, and add that it is actually easier for a merc to get rid of a bullet when he is tagged than it is for a merc to get rid of a well-placed bullet in some hidden part of the map. However, tagging a merc is generally more difficult than tagging a static part of the map when no one is looking. That, right there, is backwards.
so you want to make tagging a merc easier?
So you want to run up to a merc shock him tag with a spy bullet ran away and he has no way to remove it? Thats extremely stupid. It was fine in ct. If mercs can easily meet up and remove your spy bullets you are doing something wrong. When I used to play ct I rarely get to meet my partner to use backpack unless I was playing warehouse let alone to remove spy bullets every 10 seconds and even if I did I was taking a huge risk leaving my position unguarded.
I don't think it should be so easy for the merc to have the bullet removed, as goes for spies and spy traps. I didn't analyze the idea of running up to a merc, shocking him, and planting a bullet on him, which is what most aggro players do. I don't think that leaving it the same would be a sound solution. Its lame for the bullets/traps to be removed so quickly.
Quote from: Westfall on September 17, 2008, 07:51:38 PM
I don't think it should be so easy for the merc to have the bullet removed, as goes for spies and spy traps. I didn't analyze the idea of running up to a merc, shocking him, and planting a bullet on him, which is what most aggro players do. I don't think that leaving it the same would be a sound solution. Its lame for the bullets/traps to be removed so quickly.
Easy? As in you only need to press one button in front of your teammate? Because its not easy at all to find a good time to meet up without leaving your objectives wide open. It actually takes some skill and communication.
Tagging a merc is not the toughest thing in the world, but it does open you up to being killed.
Mercs meeting up isn't hard at all; a lot of people do it multiple times per round.
Quote from: SpekkioHowever, tagging a merc is generally more difficult than tagging a static part of the map when no one is looking. That, right there, is backwards.
A random idea that might help solve the problem:
As you select the bullets, your SS projects a circle-shaped ring instead of laser (visible to mercs?), which shows the area where the target must be, for the bullet to tag properly. The narrowness of the cone could be adjusted with mouse wheel, so that you won't lose the abiity of placing the bullet into a static location even if the merc stands right next to the spot. Additionally, in order to minimize failures the cone could change colours depending whether it hits or not. For example, red = no tag, green = tag.
there is no problem to solve, especially not with a decent mouse implementation.
spekkio: kronf is right that meeting up just to remove bullets is a very bad idea in high-level games at almost any time (unless you need backpack/the spies are aggroing in one merc's area/one or both spies dead). but unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...
Quote from: Rambo on September 18, 2008, 05:59:36 PM
there is no problem to solve, especially not with a decent mouse implementation.
spekkio: kronf is right that meeting up just to remove bullets is a very bad idea in high-level games at almost any time (unless you need backpack/the spies are aggroing in one merc's area/one or both spies dead). but unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...
In a "high skilled game," the spies are just as likely to be working together as they are to be working apart. If they're together, it's not too detrimental to have the other merc come over. Nor is it that detrimental if one spy is dead and you have a reasonable idea of where the other one is, which you do most of the time.
You guys are making it sound like meeting to remove traps and use backpack is this big huge feat that's SOOO risky, when in fact it normally occurs multiple times per round.
Quote from: Rambo on September 18, 2008, 05:59:36 PM
But unfortunately, we also have to consider mid-skilled gameplay...
Not everything is about being good at the game..
Quote from: Spekkio on September 18, 2008, 05:59:36 PM
You guys are making it sound like meeting to remove traps and use backpack is this big huge feat thats SOOO risky, when in fact it normally occurs multiple times per round.
QFE
so spybullets can be removed without any additional risk about 2-5 times a game on a decent map (from my own experience), this gadget is totally screwed ::)
I might have exaggerated a bit, but point still stands. Its not that hard to meet up and remove, but its not as easy as you say. I'll say it again its fine as it is.
QuoteI wanted to emphasize this part, and add that it is actually easier for a merc to get rid of a bullet when he is tagged than it is for a merc to get rid of a well-placed bullet in some hidden part of the map. However, tagging a merc is generally more difficult than tagging a static part of the map when no one is looking. That, right there, is backwards.
Having a tagged merc is much more advantageous than a bullet in some "hidden spot".
Quote from: kronf on September 18, 2008, 10:10:45 PM
Having a tagged merc is much more advantageous than a bullet in some "hidden spot".
mmm...wouldn't say much more. It does have its advnatages and yes its nice to know where the merc is when he's tagged, but if you're about to hack and you have well placed bullets, you know when to bolt out of there. ESPECIALLY if you already saw the merc go a certain direction.
QuoteHaving a tagged merc is much more advantageous than a bullet in some "hidden spot".
No one is saying otherwise. However, it is currently easier to place a bullet in a hidden spot than it is to tag a merc, yet it is easier for the mercs to remove the bullet than to shoot one in a hidden spot.
I think you're under-estimating the fact that tagging a merc means that the spy must reveal himself, which means that he's opening himself up to being shot as well as being pursued. Fat lot of good a "tagged" merc is when you know where he is since he's shooting at you.
QuoteNo one is saying otherwise. However, it is currently easier to place a bullet in a hidden spot than it is to tag a merc, yet it is easier for the mercs to remove the bullet than to shoot one in a hidden spot.
Absolutely true, but whats wrong with that?
QuoteI think you're under-estimating the fact that tagging a merc means that the spy must reveal himself, which means that he's opening himself up to being shot as well as being pursued. Fat lot of good a "tagged" merc is when you know where he is since he's shooting at you.
Not really, you just shock him from a good distance, tag, and run away. It isnt risky at all.
I'm kinda losing your point weren't you saying that insta-removing spy bullets is overpowered or something?
Yes, and I still think that.
What's wrong with that? I don't know, maybe the fact that there's should be a direct relationship between risk vs. reward, not an inverse one.
Secondly, yes, it is risky. Anytime the spy reveals himself he is taking a risk. Additionally, revealing your exact location is not a risk you take when you shoot a spy bullet into a random hidden spot. Yea, some maps have some relatively safe spots for the spies to use to tag mercs (squat comes to mind), but most maps don't.
It is far more risky for a spy to tag a merc than it is for a spy to shoot a bullet in a hidden spot. By exposing themselves they are likely to get shot at and naded etc, its stupid that by tagging a merc, something harder to do and involves more risk possibly even death for the spy, mercs can remove the bullets way easier than if the spy were to shoot it in a hidden spot. Its backwards.
tazing a merc happens quite regularily anyways, it's not like that's a very high risk. besides, you can also shoot bullets on mercs without them being tazed so that there's a good chance they don't notice. bullets on mercs are that strong that with no mutual removal and no boost in ground use you wouldn't see much ground use anymore.