Project Stealth

Forums => Public Discussion => Topic started by: Farley4Fan on June 07, 2009, 10:04:28 PM

Title: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 07, 2009, 10:04:28 PM
Has this been discussed before?  I think that I remember hearing about a gas mask "animation" was discussed but I'm not sure.  But is some sort of visual indication of gas mask being on/off being thought of?  I don't even think an animation is necessary.  For all I care the gas mask can just appear on his face when it is on (not necessarily activated), and dissapear when he has out another gadget.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 07, 2009, 10:43:35 PM
The situations where the gasmask is visibly on isn't 100% certain. I have a different POV than goodkebab on that matter. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 07, 2009, 11:24:31 PM
Can you say how you would do it if you were to do it?

(I love sentences with only single-syllable words) ;D
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Kurbutti on June 08, 2009, 04:28:07 AM
Why would anyone care about the visuals? The only thing that matters is the moment it's actually being used, and to indicate this we already have the breathing sound.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Kubanator on June 08, 2009, 05:36:04 AM
Quote from: Kurbutti on June 08, 2009, 04:28:07 AM
Why would anyone care about the visuals? The only thing that matters is the moment it's actually being used, and to indicate this we already have the breathing sound.
He means will there be a method of detecting whether the merc is wearing the gas mask or not.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 08, 2009, 07:36:58 AM
Quote from: Kurbutti on June 08, 2009, 04:28:07 AM
Why would anyone care about the visuals? The only thing that matters is the moment it's actually being used, and to indicate this we already have the breathing sound.

Well, that's not the point.  It's so you know if it's a good idea or not to attempt a sticky, or lob a smoke.  So the spy is able to choose the best, or avoid the worst, times to use the 2 smoke gadgets.  If the merc is walking through a smoke nade or sticky gas then we know it's active.  What about a visual indicator for just having the gas mask ready to be turned on?  (btw, I still like the breathing idea)

Another thing is that if you see he has the mask on you know he has no peripheral vision.  A spy can use that to his advantage and get by the merc.

What do you think frvge, and how does Kebab's opinion differ from yours?
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 08, 2009, 07:57:45 AM
think this is a good idea, because it helps spies and it make sense.


im not very sure if this is true because i dont play scct anymore, but from what i remember when the merc selected gasmask, he couldnt really shoot frags at the same time right?

so as way to help the merc in turn, maybe a "shoot frag" button can be assigned to the a third mouse button or some kind of "gas mask" button can be assingned. this way mercs can now use other gadgets while breathing through the gas mask.

what do u guys think of this one? i think its good.
it would be awesome to implement both papaskulls idea and this one.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 08, 2009, 11:55:35 AM
i totally agree, there should be a visual indicator showing that the mask is selected and a heavy breathing sound when the filter is in use. it should also be possible to shoot a nade without turning the mask off.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 08, 2009, 01:25:02 PM
The difference is mostly related to when we show the gasmask: when it's selected, or when it's used.
Basically there are 3 stages:
1: in one of the equipment slots, but not selected
2: selected, but not active
3: selected and active

I would use the visible goggles at 2 and 3, and have heavy breathing and a visible mouthpiece at 3.
Kebab likes the mouthpiece at 2 and the full set at 3. So the other way around.



Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 08, 2009, 01:50:28 PM
tbh, both ways it's way better than ct  ;D
just don't forget to make controls flexible enough to fire frags when using mask.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 08, 2009, 04:30:41 PM
I agree with frvge.  And maybe frags should be the only thing you can use when gas mask is selected.  What about frags when gas mask is activated?  I don't think a merc should be able to walk through a smoke cloud firing a tazer but that wouldn't be that bad anyways.  Glad we agree on this subject.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: VaNilla on June 08, 2009, 05:38:48 PM
I prefer frvge's way, I think that it should be clear when a merc is using a Gas Mask, his way is definitely the best way of doing that. However, I think that you should be able to use the gas mask whilst using any other gadget, rather than just frags. I don't really see any reason as to why you should not be able to use all but the frag grenade with a gas mask. It's something that would improve the gameplay, so you might as well apply it to all gadgets.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 08, 2009, 06:01:56 PM
affirmative.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 08, 2009, 06:19:21 PM
That's a pretty big change in gameplay. I dont know if our current set-up is capable of doing that. I'll have to discuss that.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: YaYz0r on June 08, 2009, 09:43:47 PM
If you choose to make the gasmask visible and take away some of the view would you then consider it as cheating if some people changed their gamefiles and removed it so they could have a full screen while using the gasmask (like damian3k did with the gasmask in CT)?
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 08, 2009, 10:29:47 PM
Probably, yes.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 09, 2009, 06:14:26 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 08, 2009, 01:25:02 PM
The difference is mostly related to when we show the gasmask: when it's selected, or when it's used.
Basically there are 3 stages:
1: in one of the equipment slots, but not selected
2: selected, but not active
3: selected and active

I would use the visible goggles at 2 and 3, and have heavy breathing and a visible mouthpiece at 3.
Kebab likes the mouthpiece at 2 and the full set at 3. So the other way around.



mouthpiece is important on stage 2 because that is what a spy wants to know. a spy wants to know if the merc is already suspecting hes gonna be cammed.

mouthpiece at 3 wouldnt help the spy because its not like mercs turn gas mask on without suspecting danger first.

the point is that, this whole idea should help the spy make better, faster and more efficient moves/decisions.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 09, 2009, 06:18:31 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 08, 2009, 06:19:21 PM
That's a pretty big change in gameplay. I dont know if our current set-up is capable of doing that. I'll have to discuss that.

all that is needed is a button for the action of "select gas mask", and a double tap of the button for "activate/deactivate gask mask"


sorry for double post. if anybody is bothered rofl...
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: goodkebab on June 09, 2009, 07:19:34 AM
hmmm....selected needs only the goggles because of the vision mode change.  Mouthpiece only needed when active.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 09, 2009, 10:54:21 AM
totally different suggestion: there is no delay for switching to mask and activating it, so why not make it one step instead of 2? that could work like select mask/press mask button => puts mask on and activates it in one step.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: neth on June 09, 2009, 04:12:13 PM
I can't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to use your equipment when using gasmask...
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 09, 2009, 05:22:47 PM
Imo i kind of liked the 2 step process. 
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: LennardF1989 on June 09, 2009, 05:35:52 PM
How I think it should be:

In inventory, not selected: Airtank is visible on back (The visual cue, slightly visible from frontview because of the airflow-tube)
In inventory, selected: Goggles (Because player already has maskoverlay on screen)
In inventory, selected + active: Goggles + Mouthpiece (Well duh)
Not in inventory: Nothing

That would make more sense, but goodkebabs setup would look better.

If the mouthpiece would have a light-effect like the helmet, we could show the full set in selected state, and the light effect when active.

One thing though, how about making the gasmask bindable to a key? As in, when added to inventory, you don't select it by scrolling through inventory, but by pressing a key (meaning it will also allow you to select and active it while placing a mine).
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: VaNilla on June 09, 2009, 06:08:03 PM
Sounds like a plan to me :P.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: MR.Mic on June 09, 2009, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on June 09, 2009, 05:35:52 PM
One thing though, how about making the gasmask bindable to a key? As in, when added to inventory, you don't select it by scrolling through inventory, but by pressing a key (meaning it will also allow you to select and active it while placing a mine).

I think the reason you had to select it and activate it like any other gadget was because placing mines and traps actually made you vulnerable to cams.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: goodkebab on June 09, 2009, 11:36:53 PM
on top of that,  scrolling through equipment should not waste your precious gas mask. 
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 10, 2009, 12:27:38 AM
Agree with lennard/kebab and mic.

Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: LennardF1989 on June 10, 2009, 12:30:17 AM
Which does happen in CT.

Selecting it by scroll puts the overlay on-screen, but scrolling further closes it again, thats why I think we need a bind instead. Of course we can limit the bind not to work when placing mines, but it would certainly help the mercenary getting his mask on in time.

How many times did I got gassed just because I scrolled too fast. Thats not something that requires skill, it's a liability. At least, IMO.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 10, 2009, 01:06:56 AM
Pros dont use scrolling for that reason. I have my gadgets mapped to F1-F4 (visions being 2 and 3, like SP) and that works fast enough for me. Accurate too.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Spekkio on June 10, 2009, 01:21:06 AM
QuoteHow many times did I got gassed just because I scrolled too fast. Thats not something that requires skill, it's a liability. At least, IMO.
Press [number] instead of scrolling.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 10, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
who the fuck switches weapons by scrolling in mp? xD

on a serious note: can someone tell me why we need more than 2 possible states for mask (eg on and off)?
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 10, 2009, 03:28:47 AM
Because if you feel like you are in danger of being gassed, you can be one button press away from being safe by going to selected mode.  BUT THAT COMES AT A PRICE - other gadgets, AND peripheral vision.  

I like risks and sacrificial elements about CT and it should stay that way imho.  That's why I like the 3 state system.  Can someone remind me if you can use visions while you have gas mask on?  I haven't played in months and I can't remember.  Part of me tells me you can and part of me tells me you can't.  I'm 95% sure you could no matter what. :-X

Current 3 state system sacrifices and gains

Not in use mode:
sacrifice-become more vulnerable to gas
gain-other gadgets

Selected mode:
sacrifice-can't use other gadgets, lose peripheral vision
gain-quicker access to 'activated mask mode'  (one press away from safety, becomes a reflex mechanic)

Activated mask mode:
sacrifice-can't use other gadgets, lose peripheral, lose air
gain-completely safe from gas

The only thing that I think should be changed is if you can use other gadgets while in selected mode.  Frags at least, not sure about others.  Needs testing I think.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Westfall on June 10, 2009, 04:28:04 AM
I think having to select and turn on/off your gasmask was just fine. Making it turn on automatically is unbalanced. Also there should be something in the field of view.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 10, 2009, 05:06:45 AM
agreed.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 10, 2009, 09:44:53 PM
Quote from: Rambo on June 10, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
can someone tell me why we need more than 2 possible states for mask (eg on and off)?

because that is how it was in CT, and those are all the different situations a merc can be in. not selected, selected but not in use, and in use.

2 stages (on and off). would mean that the "selected, but not in use stage" dosent exist. the consequence would be that it would always be selected and ready for use?
meaning that the gas mask wouldnt be selectable in the inventory of gadgets. it would come included without taking up a slot.

i know, its confusing, but if u think about it for a minute youll understand what im trying to say.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 11, 2009, 01:01:51 AM
i guess you mean that cycling through your equipment should be possibile without consuming mask capacity, and i have to agree on that. but it should still be possible to put on and activate mask with one button, otherwise it comes down to unnecessary button-smashing "skill".
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 11, 2009, 01:08:48 AM
Hitting a button at the right time isn't that uncommon... Like... making headshots, blowing up a mine etc.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: AgentX_003 on June 11, 2009, 04:16:10 AM
Quote from: Rambo on June 10, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
who the fuck switches weapons by scrolling in mp? xD

on a serious note: can someone tell me why we need more than 2 possible states for mask (eg on and off)?

I do for spy and merc  ( for gasmask)
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 11, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
@Rambo

yes that is another way of thinking of what i was trying to say.



on another thought, dosent anybody think that gasmask should come included as a default? its not like anybody actually dosent select it. we might as well just make it default and bind a key for activating it and disactivating it. almost like the laser aiming module.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 11, 2009, 12:37:23 PM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on June 11, 2009, 09:33:18 AM
on another thought, dosent anybody think that gasmask should come included as a default? its not like anybody actually dosent select it. we might as well just make it default and bind a key for activating it and disactivating it. almost like the laser aiming module.
that's what spekkio and me suggest for a long time.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: I <3 U on June 11, 2009, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 11, 2009, 04:16:10 AM
Quote from: Rambo on June 10, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
who the fuck switches weapons by scrolling in mp? xD

I do for spy and merc  ( for gasmask)

me too, i hate using the numbers.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on June 11, 2009, 01:13:04 PM
Quote from: FR33M4N on June 11, 2009, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 11, 2009, 04:16:10 AM
Quote from: Rambo on June 10, 2009, 02:56:00 AM
who the fuck switches weapons by scrolling in mp? xD

I do for spy and merc  ( for gasmask)

me too, i hate using the numbers.
Yeah.
I tried having eqs on F1-F4, but it wasn't very cool.
I just can't play if my visions aren't on 2 and 3 -.-
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: VaNilla on June 11, 2009, 01:48:12 PM
It's the most accurate way of switching to gadgets, thus increasing time to react, that's why it's better to use mousewheel for things like zooming, speed, and even binds of choice.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on June 11, 2009, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 11, 2009, 01:48:12 PM
It's the most accurate way of switching to gadgets, thus increasing time to react, that's why it's better to use mousewheel for things like zooming, speed, and even binds of choice.
You mean the mousewheel's more accurate then the keyboard? It isn't so.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 11, 2009, 02:57:04 PM
read again.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: goodkebab on June 11, 2009, 03:29:52 PM
The basic idea is create an easy keyboard layout for the noobs,  and let the pros modify to their own liking.

I hacked ini files for CT just to get what i wanted,  and will certainly want to do the same.

Players should be able to  do what i did and map multiple commands to a single key:

toggle vision: 1 button

coop/hack objective: 1 button

On top of that,  mapping the keys to conform to priority of use is an individual decision.

i prefer

shift: jump
space:  break neck
alt: grenade  (easy reach for thumb)

etc etc.

with gas mask,  it is a game design that you cannot shoot grenades with mask on  while in a cloud of smoke.



Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 11, 2009, 09:58:06 PM
i don't think the ct devs did this on purpose.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 11, 2009, 09:59:04 PM
I do. Else the winning chances of the Merc go up exponentially.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 11, 2009, 10:20:24 PM
if the whole balance shifts around crap like this they definitely did something wrong big time...
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 12, 2009, 02:05:40 AM
How have you not noticed that the little things in this game control the balance?  Imagine a merc being able to charge through smoke without a mask on, or the tazer having a shorter shot timer, etc.  The "little things" lead to balanced or unbalanced.  I think Ubi did alright with such a complex game to balance for the things they were trying to achieve.  Mercs didn't win 80% of the time even though they have guns.  Plenty of the details matter.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 12, 2009, 06:00:28 AM
Quote from: goodkebab on June 11, 2009, 03:29:52 PM
I hacked ini files for CT just to get what i wanted,  and will certainly want to do the same.

Players should be able to  do what i did and map multiple commands to a single key:

toggle vision: 1 button


Fail, next time just read the controls menu and find out that TAB was already the default for the function of "toggle visions". lol.
and it could be mapped to any single key. no haxing necessary.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 12, 2009, 06:01:32 AM
Quote from: Rambo on June 11, 2009, 09:58:06 PM
i don't think the ct devs did this on purpose.

I agree.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: VaNilla on June 13, 2009, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on June 12, 2009, 02:05:40 AM
How have you not noticed that the little things in this game control the balance?  Imagine a merc being able to charge through smoke without a mask on, or the tazer having a shorter shot timer, etc.  The "little things" lead to balanced or unbalanced.  I think Ubi did alright with such a complex game to balance for the things they were trying to achieve.  Mercs didn't win 80% of the time even though they have guns.  Plenty of the details matter.

This sums it up nicely, although the mercs not winning is more down to the fact that people practice more as spies. Being a merc is usually seen as getting the short end of the stick, that can hopefully be addressed in some way.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Spekkio on June 13, 2009, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: Rambo on June 11, 2009, 10:20:24 PM
if the whole balance shifts around crap like this they definitely did something wrong big time...
Huh? Being able to use two gadgets at once would surely shift game balance no matter how good of a job the devs did.

QuoteMercs didn't win 80% of the time even though they have guns.
Ya, it was probably closer to 90.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 13, 2009, 09:17:54 PM
So, the solution would be to take their guns away.   :D
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 13, 2009, 09:53:19 PM
I like the idea of having the gas mask with you as default. But i was also thinking that it should have a slight delay in a way. The way it worked in CT made basicly all of the smoke grenades redundant if the merc had even the slightest amount of 'power' in the gas mask left. You could switch to it and enable it in less than half a seconds, right as your at the edge of the smoke, and then switch off it even faster when your about to go out of the smoke.

So this got me thinking, why not apply an animation that takes about 1 second, so that the merc applies the gas mask onto his face, and then a really short blurr (half a second or so) while the mercs eyes fixate to look thro the lenses of the gas mask. So there would be some sort of an animation of the merc putting the mask on, and you could enable it instantly, even before the blur ends. But you can't go rushing into smoke just as carelessly as you could in CT.

I haven't given much thinking to the balance side of this and how it would affect quick-caming and such, so i'm kinda throwing the ball to the others.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 14, 2009, 11:36:45 PM
crap idea.

Quote from: Spekkio on June 13, 2009, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: Rambo on June 11, 2009, 10:20:24 PM
if the whole balance shifts around crap like this they definitely did something wrong big time...
Huh? Being able to use two gadgets at once would surely shift game balance no matter how good of a job the devs did.
before we think what a little reasonable change like this does to balance, we should figure out what destroyed balance in the first place. it's not like being able to use mask while placing a mine or shooting a frag would be totally unbalanced, afterall you use up your mask capacity faster, too. besides, in my experience getting gased in those actions/prohibited from those actions on purpose by smoke statistically happens once in every third game.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 15, 2009, 12:09:41 AM
Once in every third game is a big enough of a change. A Merc dying from a sticky + shot out mine is usually deciding for the game.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Westfall on June 15, 2009, 01:11:28 AM
Quote from: Westfall on June 10, 2009, 04:28:04 AM
I think having to select and turn on/off your gasmask was just fine. Making it turn on automatically is unbalanced. Also there should be something in the field of view.

To add to this, you should not be able to trigger gasmask and continue to shoot naxes or plant mines. This too would be significant balance issue.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 15, 2009, 03:43:58 AM
well, it would only nerf smoke and sticky which are kinda the most powerful gadgets anyways. with the other gadgets getting more attractive, i certainly wouldn't mind aggro-smoke-tactics stepping a little aside for more variety in tactics.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 15, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
It'll just rip the balance apart WAY too much if you can fire nades etc. while having the gas mask on, especially if it works like it does right now. You couldn't do anything with smoke grenades then and on top of that you'd have to worry about nades coming onto your ass while you make your getaway. It might work with my other idea for the slight delay when putting it on/taking it off, but as of how it is currently designed, it won't just affect few gadgets, but the whole gameplay.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 15, 2009, 08:09:57 PM
I can agree with that. 
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 17, 2009, 08:19:53 AM
i dont agree, because its not like mercs will be having good aim with the nades in a cloud of smoke with the gas mask on, its not like the gas mask allwes them to see through the smoke. it only alows them to breath thats all.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 17, 2009, 09:38:05 AM
There's MT and EMF for that.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Westfall on June 17, 2009, 09:40:11 AM
Quote from: Roberto1223 on June 17, 2009, 08:19:53 AM
i dont agree, because its not like mercs will be having good aim with the nades in a cloud of smoke with the gas mask on, its not like the gas mask allwes them to see through the smoke. it only alows them to breath thats all.

No, instead the merc chucks a nade in front of where he saw your outline dive, and you die/get hurt/sidetracked.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 17, 2009, 11:42:38 AM
i can do just the same with the current system, what's the problem with deactivating mask to shoot a frag in a smoke nade cloud oO
the only slightely balance shifting difference comes into play with sticky cams placed/activated either when the merc is placing mines or when he is about to frag. but with all the drastic special visions nerfs it's not like that would create the uba merc.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 17, 2009, 04:25:53 PM
You can't do the same with the current system, you'd be blurred and slowed instantly if you removed the gas mask. There isn't a problem with deactivating the mask to shoot a frag while your in a smoke grenade cloud. But there will be if you can do it, without suffering any kind of a consequence because you have a gas mask on. And you'd also have to bring a chaff nade with you so you can double nade the merc, to get rid of the vision, and that still doesn't guarantee an escape from a nade. Also placing mines and traps is always risky, and should remain that way, they have a great impact on the game when the spy gets hit by one. And you should have some risk of planting them, which in this case would lead to cam-gas. It just has a too big of an impact on balance either way, you'd be save from spies shooting your mine right after you've planted it (well almost anyway) and killing you in the process, that already takes away a tactic from the spies. Now double it with more nades coming onto your feet from within the smoke cloud and there's some major changes going on, and major nerfs to the smoke grenade, and the sticky cam, they don't need this kind of a drastic change.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 17, 2009, 04:38:10 PM
quite frankly, smoke nades and stickies need a small nerf, and so do aggro spy capabilities in general.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 18, 2009, 09:48:53 AM
I vote for a gaskmask -putting on- animation! :D
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 18, 2009, 04:23:34 PM
would be fatal for gameplay (boosts quickcams like crazy and adds an unnecessary delay to the action paced gameplay)
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 18, 2009, 07:30:57 PM
Unnecessary or not, to make the nades and mines usable during gas mask, it will have to change. Else, just keep it as it is, never liked the idea of nading and mine planting with gas mask anyway, just too over the top for the balance of the game.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 19, 2009, 03:48:44 AM
it wouldn't make much difference. a merc planting a mine uncarefully can also be tazed and blown up without a sticky cam, and a merc shooting a frag that kills a spy could just as easily deactivate mask and do the same. now add to that the big waste of mask time and you got yourself one quite balanced tweak.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Roberto1223 on June 19, 2009, 09:57:50 AM
... dont be scaredy cats, you worry too much about the future of gameplay and balance. most of the people here worry tooo much, its kinda annoying.

just TRY IT OUT, (i dont think theres balance issues anyway, but whatever) and see how it works.

Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: MR.Mic on June 19, 2009, 11:10:02 AM
I don't think mercs need a boost when they already win 90% of games already.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on June 19, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
a) your 90% rate is not true anymore. on club it's more like 70%, on steel 60%.
b) even if gameplay balance stays the same, the problem can easily be solved by lowering the number of accomplished objectives needed to win.
c) spies already got a huge boost by mr.mic's merc special vision fixes. reducing bullshit like silent proxy mines and lag charges will also help good spy players a lot.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 19, 2009, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: Rambo on June 19, 2009, 03:48:44 AM
it wouldn't make much difference... ...and a merc shooting a frag that kills a spy could just as easily deactivate mask and do the same...

I assume your talking about within the smoke, since outside of it, why use the gas mask constantly anyway? If it was within the smoke the merc would get blurred, slowed, and that would allow the spy to escape if the nade doesn't hit, and also there's a slight chance the merc might just pass out in the smoke if he miracleously (spelling?) happens to press the wrong button or w/e. That won't happen if you give the merc the ability to fire nades while the gas mask is on. I see no reason to change the current system, since i find it quite balanced, and you get some discount for using the gas mask. The mercs might need a boost if the new fixes actually change things that drastically. But if you ask me, it shouldn't come from the gas mask.

Also, club and steel are only 2 maps from a pretty huge bunch in CT (counting the UMP's), the 80% is quite close in my opinion.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Spekkio on June 19, 2009, 02:53:57 PM
Quote from: Rambo on June 19, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
a) your 90% rate is not true anymore. on club it's more like 70%, on steel 60%.
I think you're confused. I did not pull 90% out of my ass; Tinweasele made a stat tracker and the merc win % would come in at 85%+ for almost everyone playing the game, and well over 90%+ for anyone who was good at the game. Search the ubi.com forums and the thread might still be around.

On the other hand, your numbers are just made up based upon personal perception in a game that hardly anyone plays anymore. As far as I'm concerned, you're lying.

Quoteb) even if gameplay balance stays the same, the problem can easily be solved by lowering the number of accomplished objectives needed to win.
Not requiring over 50% of the objectives to be done to win is stupid.
Quotec) spies already got a huge boost by mr.mic's merc special vision fixes. reducing bullshit like silent proxy mines and lag charges will also help good spy players a lot.
Proxies aren't silent (so long as you have EAX). In fact, they're often too loud and easily heard. Lag charges are annoying, but are a non-issue when playing people with decent ping, which was possible when a sizeable amount of people actually played the game.

You can fix all this stuff, and you'll still get owned by a team that knows how to snipe well (well is defined as someone who will successfully headshot you with a quicksnipe > 33% of the time, which a lot of people were capable of doing once upon a time).

Spies do not need a nerf to smoke grenades and sticky cams. Mercs already have a gadget that completely negates the effects of both. Yes, a lot of people do take these pieces of equipment, but that is an issue with internal balance within the spy's equipment and not external balance between the spies and mercs.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Westfall on June 19, 2009, 10:51:49 PM
Well spoken.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: LoChang on June 20, 2009, 01:46:57 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3651075192/m/7281041982/p/1

Stat tracker au' originale'...

EDIT: Ahhh, the memories.  Check out that last post by me on page 4, Spek.  :-)  <3 !
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Spekkio on June 20, 2009, 02:12:11 AM
There was an even more current thread after retail was released.

EDIT: I know you're still proud of only 1 loss record as merc.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: LoChang on June 20, 2009, 10:15:56 PM
You know what's funny, I think that was you and Remm that did that if I remember correctly.  I wouldn't think that but I have a clear memory of Remmdog shouting and screaming one particular time against us in lobby in pure, unadulterated adjulation.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ray mysertio on June 26, 2009, 07:28:52 AM
Quote from: YaYz0r on June 08, 2009, 09:43:47 PM
If you choose to make the gasmask visible and take away some of the view would you then consider it as cheating if some people changed their gamefiles and removed it so they could have a full screen while using the gasmask (like damian3k did with the gasmask in CT)?

sorry if this has been concluded but many gasmasks offer nealy full peripheral vision and are certified to top-spec...

why not use a more feasable gas mask model to allow good peripheral (which any merc group would do if they could) and if someone edits a game file and passes secuity then it wont affect much .

Quote from: Roberto1223 on June 18, 2009, 09:48:53 AM
I vote for a gaskmask -putting on- animation! :D

if a merc has a gasmask it would probably be on his head if he is actively egaging or ready to engage the enemy ... an animation as quick as slipping it fom the top of his head to his face would be like switching from semi-auto to full auto in an FPS ... alot of you will argue that this isnt an FPS and obviously not, but the affect is has on gameplay would be the same risk/reward system already being used...

Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: ShadowX on June 26, 2009, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: ray mysertio on June 26, 2009, 07:28:52 AM

why not use a more feasable gas mask model to allow good peripheral (which any merc group would do if they could) and if someone edits a game file and passes secuity then it wont affect much .


Because then what would be the risk of running around with gas mask on in the first place? The game isn't all about realism. The game needs balancing, a gas mask that obscures your vision but gives you the ability to run thro smoke and cam-gas is fine as it is.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on June 26, 2009, 06:34:10 PM
Ray, why do even play video games?  The more I see you post, the more it becomes obvious that you just want to replicate real life.  Surely there must be some way for you to visit real life other than trying to mold PS into a sims game, a door should work.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: frvge on June 26, 2009, 06:49:31 PM
Arguing about Ray can go into the Off-Topic forum. Temp locked.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on July 05, 2009, 09:54:50 PM
QuoteYou can fix all this stuff, and you'll still get owned by a team that knows how to snipe well (well is defined as someone who will successfully headshot you with a quicksnipe > 33% of the time, which a lot of people were capable of doing once upon a time).
you're addressing a very delicate topic here as there are many gameplay problems linked to the very unique and weird weapon behaviour in ct:
-the ability to quicksnipe makes such a big difference that it kinda splits up two merc skill groups as it's so much harder to kill a good spy in any other way
-killing a spy too often comes down to the simple game who shoots and hits faster (the quicksnipe or the taze), which kinda dumbs down the gameplay and makes lag way more of a game-deciding problem
-doing double damage while in zoom makes no sense at all and should be removed from the game (just as uzi and shotty), in return a headshot should always be deadly
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on July 05, 2009, 10:23:16 PM
Isn't it always deadly?... ::)
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: I <3 U on July 05, 2009, 11:28:15 PM
Quote from: Rambo on July 05, 2009, 09:54:50 PM
QuoteYou can fix all this stuff, and you'll still get owned by a team that knows how to snipe well (well is defined as someone who will successfully headshot you with a quicksnipe > 33% of the time, which a lot of people were capable of doing once upon a time).
you're addressing a very delicate topic here as there are many gameplay problems linked to the very unique and weird weapon behaviour in ct:
-the ability to quicksnipe makes such a big difference that it kinda splits up two merc skill groups as it's so much harder to kill a good spy in any other way
-killing a spy too often comes down to the simple game who shoots and hits faster (the quicksnipe or the taze), which kinda dumbs down the gameplay and makes lag way more of a game-deciding problem
-doing double damage while in zoom makes no sense at all and should be removed from the game (just as uzi and shotty), in return a headshot should always be deadly



so you're saying like 4-6 sniping body shots to kill a spy????? thats basically impossible against anyone over a noob.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on July 06, 2009, 12:32:09 AM
nope, damage (and maybe fire rate) would be set higher of course.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on July 06, 2009, 09:27:06 AM
But didn't you say that double-damage while in zoom mode makes no sense?  Are you saying you want like 1.5 damage during zoom mode?  Lol.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Gawain on July 06, 2009, 01:55:56 PM
nope, i'm suggesting going back pt rifle one weapon system, but with 1.5 times higher general damage and no extra damage in zoom.
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Farley4Fan on July 08, 2009, 07:47:04 PM
But PS won't be a one weapon system (right?).

And why do threads always turn into one of two things:

-Weapon discussions
-Gadget slot discussions

?
Title: Re: Visual Gas Mask Indicator
Post by: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on July 08, 2009, 10:00:38 PM
Quote from: Rambo on July 06, 2009, 01:55:56 PM
nope, i'm suggesting going back pt rifle one weapon system, but with 1.5 times higher general damage and no extra damage in zoom.
The PT rifle snipe rof could be too high to be balanced :/
Add headshots and the spies are done for if they are seen.