Project Stealth

I've been playing more Chaos Theory lately and--
(hardcore fans: hurrayyyyyyyyyyy!)
Right....like I said I've been playing more Chaos Theory lately, and about a week ago it finally occurred to me that (same as it was with me a few years ago) I was winning many more rounds as a mercenary than I was as a Shadownet spy, at least against even teams.
I would rate my spy/merc win ratio at about 1:10. No joke.
Are you guys winning in Chaos Theory much the same way? And if so, then why do you think this is?
Personally, being a spy just seems to be harder. More work. Time is against you to take objectives. It is much more easy and more likely for you to die especially as players perfect their sniping. Yes, you have gadgets to stun and k.o. the mercenaries, but they don't always give you enough time to do what you need to do.

Whereas, as a mercenary, the experience is more recreational. You can sit back, relax, and wait for the spies to wade through minefields, passive defenses, and eventually you. And whenever you come into direct conflict, you already stand a good chance of being the winner. And unlike the gadgets of Shadownet, yours are far more permanent, both in their status on the map and their effect on the spies.
I won a few real spy matches with a talkative dude named Matt, and he and I were so happy we were fucking cheering. We couldn't believe we saw those letters flash in front of our spies.

Perhaps I'm just not using the right spy tactics in terms of effective ambushes on the merc, which would no doubt make the rounds easier. But as far as I'm concerned, one side being more hard work and less enjoyable (in my opinion) than the other side is not balanced.
But what do I know? I'm just a black kid from a nation where health-care is treated like a pair of shoes meant to show off.
I want you guys to tell me what YOU think.

Quote from: Savior20061 on August 09, 2009, 03:23:17 AM
Perhaps I'm just not using the right spy tactics in terms of effective ambushes on the merc, which would no doubt make the rounds easier. But as far as I'm concerned, one side being more hard work and less enjoyable (in my opinion) than the other side is not balanced.
But what do I know? I'm just a black kid from a nation where health-care is treated like a pair of shoes meant to show off.
I want you guys to tell me what YOU think.

LOOOOOL I cant believe you just said that LMAO LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl


but in all seriousness though , Yes its easy to win merc , anybody can do it , just spy is the real kicker, But with careful strategy of staying as a unit with the reconnaissance gadgets that are provided to you and used effectively, you will succeed.

 ;D
I love you Agent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The mercs job is to defend and the spies have to infiltrate, it's always going to be easier to play the side of defense :P.

in fact, the game wouldn't work at all if the merc side had no slight advantage.

in ct once you encounter skilled snipers and gas mask users that also use eax superhearing and emf ghosting you are kinda fucked if you're not playing on the host side or on some rare maps. though in my experience i wouldn't say spy winning stats are 10%, but rather 20-30% with equal teams and way higher even with small skill differences, especially when it comes down to teamplay.

those stats don't look that great, but don't forget that it's about the same in css with the cts having the advantage, and this game had great success in esports.

from what we've seen so far my guess is that on the ps beta build the spy side will hold the advantage, but tons of balance work and bug fixes will have to be done anyways...

CTs have no advantage that I noticed. I'd much rather say that the Ts have it, because the AK costs 2500 compared to the CTs M4 which costs 3100.

in tournament matches where there's actually teamplay and tactics, on every bomb map except chateau the cts are the first to reach the bomb spot and have a huge advantage therefore. i once spoke with someone getting paid to play css and he told me on dust 1 and 2 80% of the time the cts win at professional level.
now on a public server, that's another story. folks don't camp the bomb spots there, they just run around like idiots till the terrors have placed the bomb and now the terrors have the advantage.

Well, I was thinking more from the 'weapons' side than the map layout one.
Therefore, we need awesome mappers.

we got the very best  ;D

Quote from: Rambo on August 09, 2009, 12:42:38 PM
in fact, the game wouldn't work at all if the merc side had no slight advantage.

in ct once you encounter skilled snipers and gas mask users that also use eax superhearing and emf ghosting you are kinda fucked if you're not playing on the host side or on some rare maps. though in my experience i wouldn't say spy winning stats are 10%, but rather 20-30% with equal teams and way higher even with small skill differences, especially when it comes down to teamplay.

those stats don't look that great, but don't forget that it's about the same in css with the cts having the advantage, and this game had great success in esports.

from what we've seen so far my guess is that on the ps beta build the spy side will hold the advantage, but tons of balance work and bug fixes will have to be done anyways...

I see your point on the Counterstrike thing, although I'm not sure if you can really compare the two. If that win percentage was at least 40%, I wouldn't be complaining like a Double Agent noob.
I don't want to suggest a mercenary nerf, and have spies with the advantage they had in Pandora. Ghosting I'm assuming isn't going to be a problem, and thanks to Mr. Mic motiontracking won't be overpower either. Perhaps this, along with some good maps with few bullshit chokepoints like the ones in 
Chaos Theory, will be all the balance the game needs.

well, we won't get a picture of the ps balance till some months after the beta release as bugs need to be fixed first and people have to adjust to the new game mechanics and map.
but i don't think balance will be any problem in the long run as there will be constant support unlike a certain *&%^$ company did.

Random, you're so wrong. Maps like Nuke especially, when there a few entries and they are easy to hold, Terrorists have to be quite fast to get picks and a bomb down against good players, giving CT a clear advantage. That might not be so in a public game with shitters, this is coming from a mid-high player who plays with semi-pros :P.

All other things being equal, the defender is usually going to have the advantage once people gain experience. There are only so many methods of attack you can use until they all become routine.

I don't think this is a bad thing, but I do agree that the win ratio between spy/mercs could be a little closer.

Well,  we hope to answer this problem with faster and more flexible control of the spy.  In CT,  it was frustrating because spy was moving sluggish.

With the new engine you noticed spy has more movement possibilities,  and the cool thing is we intend to add a lot more cool moves then CT ever had  (we already have new ones)

I'm glad that you are adding more maneuverability to the spy; however, the spy's "sluggishness" was never a point of frustration for me. In fact, DA's animations were way too fast and fake-looking. CT's animations were fine...the frustration came in when experienced mercs can pinpoint you the second you move any faster than slow crouch thanks to EAX, then they proceed to either lag charge you or headshot you before you can move.

Quote from: Spekkio on August 11, 2009, 02:38:02 AM
I'm glad that you are adding more maneuverability to the spy; however, the spy's "sluggishness" was never a point of frustration for me. In fact, DA's animations were way too fast and fake-looking. CT's animations were fine...the frustration came in when experienced mercs can pinpoint you the second you move any faster than slow crouch thanks to EAX, then they proceed to either lag charge you or headshot you before you can move.

Do you mean just "any ol' " lag, or the lag that happens when a merc charges and you Sticky Shock him and he hits you anyways?

Quote from: Spekkio on August 11, 2009, 02:38:02 AM
I'm glad that you are adding more maneuverability to the spy; however, the spy's "sluggishness" was never a point of frustration for me. In fact, DA's animations were way too fast and fake-looking. CT's animations were fine...the frustration came in when experienced mercs can pinpoint you the second you move any faster than slow crouch thanks to EAX, then they proceed to either lag charge you or headshot you before you can move.

qfe

Quote from: Spekkio on August 11, 2009, 02:38:02 AM.the frustration came in when experienced mercs can pinpoint you the second you move any faster than slow crouch thanks to EAX

Oh man I loved EAX superhearing... until it stopped working for me someday  ;D
I find it pretty remarkable how long we've been playing CT considering how many bugs it has.
Bugs which Ubi never cared to fix, even though they promised it.

They did a good job with DA though. I didn't notice any bugs in the DA versus which could be a problem for the balancing.

Quote from: Royale on August 11, 2009, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on August 11, 2009, 02:38:02 AM.the frustration came in when experienced mercs can pinpoint you the second you move any faster than slow crouch thanks to EAX

Oh man I loved EAX superhearing... until it stopped working for me someday  ;D
I find it pretty remarkable how long we've been playing CT considering how many bugs it has.
Bugs which Ubi never cared to fix, even though they promised it.

They did a good job with DA though. I didn't notice any bugs in the DA versus which could be a problem for the balancing.

well there is only one thing that killed it is who ever dies first the other team can hear ur voice chat =/...