Merc:
The EMP mine disables the spy's visions for x seconds, disables the spy's gadgets for y seconds, and depletes his energy bar. It has a larger radius than proximity mines, and is triggered by laser or proximity, depending on what the devs choose. This does not affect passive security, but does affect Mercs.
The C4 mine can be thrown a short distance and sticks to any wall. It is manually detonated by Mercs, and has a delay of x seconds. It's blast radius is larger than a proximity mine's. It emits a red light, and is visible under thermal.
With the addition of these two mines, I recommend that Mercs be limited to using 3/5 mines.
Spy:
The EMI suit disables all nearby equipment including mines, and tracking devices (even attached ones), for as long as they are within the radius of the suit. The suit constantly drains energy while active, able to remain active for x seconds. As soon as objects leave the radius of the suit, they reactivate instantly. This also has the side effect of making a massive EMF field.
Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases it's effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker. However, the spy cannot pull out his sticky shocker.
If you intend to post, post intelligently. If you disagree, disagree with reason, and try to fix the problem.
This is bad. (Wrong)
This is bad because of x reason. (Good)
even if you ideas were good, more than 8 gadgets is just too much. so you should mention which ones they could replace and why they fit better into gameplay than those.
I accept your logic, but reject your premise. In a strategy based game, opening up more tools for strategy is good. This isn't rock-paper-scissors, where 8 way would lead to an obvious advantage based off of luck.
A base of standardized weaponry and equipment ensures that the minor advantage created by a gadget can be overwhelmed by skill and strategy. Also, you've failed to comment on the gadgets at all, and explain why there can only be a certain amount of gadgets.
Quote from: Kubanator on September 04, 2009, 08:26:08 AM
Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases it's effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker.
Holy shit aggro spy paradise.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on September 04, 2009, 10:42:40 AM
Quote from: Kubanator on September 04, 2009, 08:26:08 AM
Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases it's effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker.
Holy shit aggro spy paradise.
Ok, how about now?
Now it's just not very useful. Nobody's gonna waste an gadget slot on the ability to crouch walk and not get picked up by MT. The beating EMF is pretty useless, and the laser's never going to come up. Not sure what you mean by spy tracker though.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on September 04, 2009, 08:35:45 PM
Now it's just not very useful. Nobody's gonna waste an gadget slot on the ability to crouch walk and not get picked up by MT. The beating EMF is pretty useless, and the laser's never going to come up. Not sure what you mean by spy tracker though.
Spy tracker is the spy trap tracking thing. Also, changed again.
And what do you think of the other gadgets?
Quote from: Kubanator on September 04, 2009, 09:43:21 AM
I accept your logic, but reject your premise. In a strategy based game, opening up more tools for strategy is good. This isn't rock-paper-scissors, where 8 way would lead to an obvious advantage based off of luck.
A base of standardized weaponry and equipment ensures that the minor advantage created by a gadget can be overwhelmed by skill and strategy. Also, you've failed to comment on the gadgets at all, and explain why there can only be a certain amount of gadgets.
the more gadgets you have in a game, the more facts a new player has to learn, the harder it is to balance it all out and the more guessing games (which replaces reasoning in same part as you don't have a stable starting ground for your assumptions) you get. at least to me, a game like Go with incredibly easy rules (but still incredible depth and more strategic possibilities than atoms in our galaxy!) is the ideal for a beautiful game: easy to get into, hard to master. besides, too many gadget choices distract from the core gameplay, just like minigames for hacking door panels and other crap ideas would do.
don't get me wrong, i like lot's of your ideas a lot. but it's really time to start thinking about a second game mode, maybe even more like scda. you just can't pack every single idea into one game mode and expect it to work.
It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.
My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.
Quote from: Rambo on September 05, 2009, 04:39:03 PMthe more gadgets you have in a game, the more facts a new player has to learn, the harder it is to balance it all out and the more guessing games (which replaces reasoning in same part as you don't have a stable starting ground for your assumptions) you get. at least to me, a game like Go with incredibly easy rules (but still incredible depth and more strategic possibilities than atoms in our galaxy!) is the ideal for a beautiful game: easy to get into, hard to master. besides, too many gadget choices distract from the core gameplay, just like minigames for hacking door panels and other crap ideas would do.
don't get me wrong, i like lot's of your ideas a lot. but it's really time to start thinking about a second game mode, maybe even more like scda. you just can't pack every single idea into one game mode and expect it to work.
Looking at any FPS, the most basic of games, you'll see way more weapons then you will gadgets. And really, look at Team Fortress 2. The game has 9 completely different classes, but you can play every single one decently within the first hour. Gadgets are a method of making the core gameplay more involving. For example, Merc is tired of spies running in, hacking and escaping when he leaves. So he puts down a mine. Spy uses his chaff grenade to disable it allowing him to pass. Then you can get into combinations of gadgets, like smoke and chaff to blind a merc and trap him, or using alarm snare and sticky cam to gas him. More gadgets creates more combinations, which creates more strategy, making more gameplay.
EMI suit is similar to a chaff grenade, and Active countermeasures is the opposite of camouflage, it allows you to be seen with normal vision, but prevents special visions from seeing you.
Pulse mines create a more accurate, less effective alternative to proximity mines, and C4s allow an alternative to frag grenades, difficult to predict and dodge, but must be pre-placed.
Really, there's no point to removing gadgets, as if these act as replacements, I've made no changes to the game.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 07:28:01 PM
It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.
Chaos Theory, Merc: Frag, Mine, Mask, Backpack, Camnet.
All used gadgets.
Spy: Smoke, Flash, Chaff, Cam, Heartbeat, Spy bullet
All used gadgets.
You can have more than 4 gadgets if they promote different strategies.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 07:28:01 PM
My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.
That means that each side is limited to the few strategies that that set of gadgets allows. Trying to simplify the game so noobs can play is good, making the game easier to play without removing strategies is better.
I understand where you are coming from but strategies become obsolete as people get to know the maps. If the developers attempt to create too much room for strategies it will be very hard to counter. If the dev's make too few, the game will be very straight forward.
I'm not saying your ideas for gadgets are wrong but they are not needed as it makes things too complicated and most of the gadgets won't be used after a while as X gadget and Y gadget are required etc..
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 08:58:42 PMI understand where you are coming from but strategies become obsolete as people get to know the maps. If the developers attempt to create too much room for strategies it will be very hard to counter. If the dev's make too few, the game will be very straight forward.
Just like Rambo said, Go is easy to learn, hard to master. It's hard to master because of all of the strategies. When you allow more strategies, you allow the game to live longer, because there's more things to master. A game ceases to be fun when your options become limiting.
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 08:58:42 PM
I'm not saying your ideas for gadgets are wrong but they are not needed as it makes things too complicated and most of the gadgets won't be used after a while as X gadget and Y gadget are required etc..
If there are 4 specific gadgets that every spy will use, the devs failed. It means that the devs were unsuccessful in balancing all of the gadgets. I have faith that they will be capable of balancing the gadgets they make. Again, looking at Team Fortress 2, they have 9 balanced classes, each with balanced alternate weapons, and even noobs aren't confused, even with the lack of tutorials.
Devs, I summon you from the depths of your basement! Read this thread!
"You do not have enough Magic Power to summon the developers." - Announcer
Quote from: LennardF1989 on September 06, 2009, 12:38:39 AM
"You do not have enough Magic Power to summon the developers." - Announcer
Damn it, I should have wandered around outside and leveled up. Oh well, at least the announcer got here.
Announcer broke the rules. Penalty was DEATH.
Quote from: frvge on September 06, 2009, 10:25:52 PM
Announcer broke the rules. Penalty was DEATH.
Ha I tricked the devs into coming out! Now, master ball!
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 07:28:01 PM
It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.
My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.
Honestly, the only two gadgets I would say are "must have's" in CT are gasmask and sticky cams. You can throw chaff in their depending on the map and your playstyle. The only two gadgets that would "gimp" you are tazer and flares because they are redundant with innate merc abilities.
Beyond that, it was very possible to be successful with multiple gadget combinations. When the CT tourney was held a while back, Lochang and I placed second when Lo didn't use frag grenades as merc. This allowed us to have 6 spy traps and 6 mines on the map with a backpack, or 3 traps/6 mines/camnet. Essentially, between the two of us we had all 6 of the remaining merc gadgets outside of flares and tazer. As spy, one of use usually had alarm snares, so long as the map promoted a sneaky playstyle. The only gadget item that was not consistently used by us was camo.
I agree that the gadgets could use some balance tweaking, but "gimp" is the wrong word to use with the exception of gasmask and sticky cams. The main issue is that mercs have two gadgets that are absolutely useless, thus giving you a choice of 6: The tazer was made obsolete due to a more potent bullcharge, and an optional shotgun or uzi. Flares are obsolete due to multiple vision modes, a flashlight, and a laser that all allow you to detect spies in dark areas. However, all the spy gadgets have a place in the arsenal. Gasmask is absolutely necessary because it hard-counters two spy gadgets, thus leaving you with a realistic choice of 3/5 of the following: frags, mines, traps, camnet, and backpack. On the spy end, if camo and snares weren't so loud that a merc could pinpoint you for using them, it would be a much harder choice to choose the appropriate loadout.
The solution is not to reduce the number of gadgets, but to tweak them so that they have a realistic choice.
Firstly, SCPT allowed the spies to choose 4/6 gadgets; I do not understand why SCCT expanded the number of gadgets without expanding the amount you could take.
However, I would be in favor of making the gasmask and camo innate pieces of equipment. Camo can be tweaked to allow it to hard-counter MT; that is, the spy would go undetected by MT at any movement speed while camo was activated.
Now that we've knocked the number of selectable gadgets down to 7... there really isn't much anyone can do about flares and tazer being useless. Tazer will remain redundant unless the bullcharge is reworked and uzi/shotty are removed from the game. Since few people interested in PS would like to see that happen, we're stuck with a tazer that is doomed to uselessness. The next best option is to replace it with something that is more useful, but gadget ideas on these boards suck and I'm too busy learning to operate a nuclear reactor to think of something useful. The same goes for flares: so long as the merc has a flashlight, a laser, EMF, and MT all readily available, flares will remain absolutely useless. I would like to see spy traps tweaked so that the spies cannot run through them all and instantly remove every single one. I also think that spy traps are used much less often because poison mines overlap with them. Since poison mines give a big "whoosh" to the host, they both serve a similar function in detection, except a poison mine will kill you in 15 seconds while a spy trap will...do nothing. Camnet needs a nerf to A) remove special visions B) remove laser and C) have a short delay between switching cams and D) have some kind of timer/battery/something that limits its use.
On the spy side, things are more interesting. I already mentioned the above sound changes to camo and snares. Beyond that, the main issue with sticky cams is that it provides another way to KO the merc. That is a huge upside to the gadget that is not compensated by any other in the game. With an innate gasmask vs. wasting a gadget slot, this upside is somewhat offset. Still, without the KO feature cams would be useless. What may also decrease their effectiveness, at least to the point of considering not taking them, is better jump hit detection/grab box in PS and a tweak to infinite insta-heal. If the devs can get it so that you can actually land jumps as a client, that you can't funny punch your way out of any shitty situation, and that you can't just heal each other at whim, then sticky cams won't be as important. Tweak chaff so that it doesn't work through walls. Remove the ability for the mercs to infinitely, instantly remove spy bullets from each other, and make the HBS suck up the sticky shocker's energy (as with camnet, I am of the opinion that no gadget should be able to be used infinitely).
That's a start to having a more balanced gadget arsenal.
So, ultimately, there are two merc gadgets that are in need of replacement. Now it's a matter of replacing them with something useful and balanced.
I'm gonna go ahead and say the flares could be reworked into a battery gadget that would greatly increase the aperture and intensity of the headlamp for the duration of a charge or until it is switched off.
It could have a certian life that is fixed for one merc life, or it could be recharged at ammo depots, or it could recharge slowly like the camo suit.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 07, 2009, 12:29:00 AM
Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on September 05, 2009, 07:28:01 PM
It doesn't matter how many gadgets are available in-game. Because in the end people will outweight gadgets over another and end up with 4 required ones. If you don't have those 4 you'll be called a "noob" and needs to "L2P", also, switching one of the 4 gadgets for a random one to try to be unique will end up gimping yourself in every possible way you can think of.
My vote would be to just make 4 gadgets for each side, to avoid unneccesary time waste of outweighting gadgets and also to make it easier for new people to get into the game while avoiding them being called "noob" for picking the wrong gadgets.
Honestly, the only two gadgets I would say are "must have's" in CT are gasmask and sticky cams. You can throw chaff in their depending on the map and your playstyle. The only two gadgets that would "gimp" you are tazer and flares because they are redundant with innate merc abilities.
Beyond that, it was very possible to be successful with multiple gadget combinations. When the CT tourney was held a while back, Lochang and I placed second when Lo didn't use frag grenades as merc. This allowed us to have 6 spy traps and 6 mines on the map with a backpack, or 3 traps/6 mines/camnet. Essentially, between the two of us we had all 6 of the remaining merc gadgets outside of flares and tazer. As spy, one of use usually had alarm snares, so long as the map promoted a sneaky playstyle. The only gadget item that was not consistently used by us was camo.
I agree that the gadgets could use some balance tweaking, but "gimp" is the wrong word to use with the exception of gasmask and sticky cams. The main issue is that mercs have two gadgets that are absolutely useless, thus giving you a choice of 6: The tazer was made obsolete due to a more potent bullcharge, and an optional shotgun or uzi. Flares are obsolete due to multiple vision modes, a flashlight, and a laser that all allow you to detect spies in dark areas. However, all the spy gadgets have a place in the arsenal. Gasmask is absolutely necessary because it hard-counters two spy gadgets, thus leaving you with a realistic choice of 3/5 of the following: frags, mines, traps, camnet, and backpack. On the spy end, if camo and snares weren't so loud that a merc could pinpoint you for using them, it would be a much harder choice to choose the appropriate loadout.
The solution is not to reduce the number of gadgets, but to tweak them so that they have a realistic choice.
Firstly, SCPT allowed the spies to choose 4/6 gadgets; I do not understand why SCCT expanded the number of gadgets without expanding the amount you could take.
However, I would be in favor of making the gasmask and camo innate pieces of equipment. Camo can be tweaked to allow it to hard-counter MT; that is, the spy would go undetected by MT at any movement speed while camo was activated.
Now that we've knocked the number of selectable gadgets down to 7... there really isn't much anyone can do about flares and tazer being useless. Tazer will remain redundant unless the bullcharge is reworked and uzi/shotty are removed from the game. Since few people interested in PS would like to see that happen, we're stuck with a tazer that is doomed to uselessness. The next best option is to replace it with something that is more useful, but gadget ideas on these boards suck and I'm too busy learning to operate a nuclear reactor to think of something useful. The same goes for flares: so long as the merc has a flashlight, a laser, EMF, and MT all readily available, flares will remain absolutely useless. I would like to see spy traps tweaked so that the spies cannot run through them all and instantly remove every single one. I also think that spy traps are used much less often because poison mines overlap with them. Since poison mines give a big "whoosh" to the host, they both serve a similar function in detection, except a poison mine will kill you in 15 seconds while a spy trap will...do nothing. Camnet needs a nerf to A) remove special visions B) remove laser and C) have a short delay between switching cams and D) have some kind of timer/battery/something that limits its use.
On the spy side, things are more interesting. I already mentioned the above sound changes to camo and snares. Beyond that, the main issue with sticky cams is that it provides another way to KO the merc. That is a huge upside to the gadget that is not compensated by any other in the game. With an innate gasmask vs. wasting a gadget slot, this upside is somewhat offset. Still, without the KO feature cams would be useless. What may also decrease their effectiveness, at least to the point of considering not taking them, is better jump hit detection/grab box in PS and a tweak to infinite insta-heal. If the devs can get it so that you can actually land jumps as a client, that you can't funny punch your way out of any shitty situation, and that you can't just heal each other at whim, then sticky cams won't be as important. Tweak chaff so that it doesn't work through walls. Remove the ability for the mercs to infinitely, instantly remove spy bullets from each other, and make the HBS suck up the sticky shocker's energy (as with camnet, I am of the opinion that no gadget should be able to be used infinitely).
That's a start to having a more balanced gadget arsenal.
So, ultimately, there are two merc gadgets that are in need of replacement. Now it's a matter of replacing them with something useful and balanced.
I agree with you totally on most points but the one point ill say is spytraps are very useful even the best of players are caught by them because the fact they are so innocent plus listening on peoples comm's is a big plus too
Very well put Spek.
Wasn't there discussion to replace flares with phos nades as well? Also having them serve a greater purpose? Camnet needs a drain of battery. I remember the heated debate on that one.
Also the ability of healing people to full health needs to be nerfed or there would need to be an alternate gadget like DA had (with the exception of being able to use it on your comrade if he's hurt).
I have nothing more to add fo now since Spekkio's post should just be a sticky
unto itself on an outline of gadget inquiries/fixes.
Quote from: Westfall on September 07, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
Very well put Spek.
Wasn't there discussion to replace flares with phos nades as well? Also having them serve a greater purpose? Camnet needs a drain of battery. I remember the heated debate on that one.
Also the ability of healing people to full health needs to be nerfed or there would need to be an alternate gadget like DA had (with the exception of being able to use it on your comrade if he's hurt).
I have nothing more to add fo now since Spekkio's post should just be a sticky
unto itself on an outline of gadget inquiries/fixes.
forget the gadget and make the healing mechanic a maintained action. Both players stay put and a certain amount of health is restored over time as long as the action is sustained. A maximum for this might be added as well so that you cannot heal your teammate back to full or whatever the balance choice is. Or just limit the number of times one can restore health to prevent abuse of the healing mechanic.
I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.
Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.
Quote from: Westfall on September 07, 2009, 07:04:45 AM
I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.
Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.
any more than 5 seconds would negate the benefit of healing due to time lost as far as I'm concerned
i agree with spekkio's post except two points:
-no matter how many folks dislike it, go back to pt weapon system. it's just the smarter choice. combine this with auto-charge removal and a little range boost for tazer, and you got yourself a gadget worth taking again next to a higher map balance treshold.
-removing chaff's ability to work through walls would be too much of a nerf. with more mine and spy trap placement options and maybe a little change to the explosion radius running around spamming chaffs won't be possible.
Quote-removing chaff's ability to work through walls would be too much of a nerf. with more mine and spy trap placement options and maybe a little change to the explosion radius running around spamming chaffs won't be possible.
Chaff working through walls is simply retarded. There has been no discussion or information that leads me to believe that there will be "more mine and trap placement options." You just made that up randomly. In fact, AFAIK the devs are planning on keeping the mine/trap placement limit to 3 per merc, which is fine by me. If the devs fixed the insanely long laser range on poison mines and spy traps and fixed the geometry issues with crooked lasers, this is a non-issue. Even if they didn't, there are only 2-3 spots that a chaff cannot disable a mine by being banked off of a wall instead of quick-thrown through it, and one of those spots (bdg C in Deftech) can't be bypassed by using the quickthrow, either.
The thing is, I don't think that taking chaff MUST allow the spy to bypass every single mine and trap on the map. There are teamwork heal remove and multiple routes for a reason.
Chaff has many different uses; it does not need to be able to be spammed through walls while running around to be useful. Spamming chaff will ALWAYS be possible so long as it goes through walls, particularly if you're smart enough to use sticky cams to survey the area first.
Quote-no matter how many folks dislike it, go back to pt weapon system.
I wouldn't be opposed to it necessarily, but most people are. Unfortunately, I don't think people would change their mind even if the change was forced upon them. You're also talking about removing two weapons vice re-working one gadgets, so the payoff in terms of content is greater if a more suitable replacement to the tazer is developed.
Also, if you buff the tazer too much, you run back into the problem with PT where the merc was extremely deadly from both close and far away, and the tazer is one of those "must have" gadgets that we're trying to avoid.
Quoteforget the gadget and make the healing mechanic a maintained action. Both players stay put and a certain amount of health is restored over time as long as the action is sustained. A maximum for this might be added as well so that you cannot heal your teammate back to full or whatever the balance choice is. Or just limit the number of times one can restore health to prevent abuse of the healing mechanic.
Not a bad idea.
One thing I absolutely think should be removed is self regen for the spies. Nothing is more frustrating than a spy who makes it to a safe place with 5% health, sits around for 15 seconds in an inaccessible area and ends up with 80%.
Quote from: monterto on September 07, 2009, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: Westfall on September 07, 2009, 07:04:45 AM
I understand what you're saying. It's like healing yourself or a teammate in L4D. I am definitely okay with this, but it still should not be an infinite heal advantage. In L4D you have to pick up kits or toss pills around. I would say you should be able to heal a spy once every 2 lives (if it's still 4 lives). It was definitely a good
pickup. How long should it take? Personally I think in the range of 5-7 seconds.
Edit: might make new thread since we've gone off topic here, but I definitely think a timed healing is a fix for plenty of gaming.... Unless the community thinks insta-heal should still stand, but really...This is a good fix to a controversial yet small issue.
any more than 5 seconds would negate the benefit of healing due to time lost as far as I'm concerned
but if you think about it, you would be getting a full health bar. The penalty should be a loss of time. Otherwise there shouldn't be this rapid heal with no time penalty. There has to be a
consequence with getting health....5-7 seconds.
Health regen. wasn't a bad thing, but it was WAY too much. It was also balanced and consequential because the spy had to remain still, wasting time but maybe fooling the merc about their whereabouts. I'm fine with cutting it out altogether though.
Edit: chaff through walls is and will always be one of the biggest bugs offered without being an actual bug to the game. It should absolutely be removed.
QuoteThere has been no discussion or information that leads me to believe that there will be "more mine and trap placement options." You just made that up randomly.
lennard told me that, and it was also in discussion several times before.
QuoteYou're also talking about removing two weapons vice re-working one gadgets, so the payoff in terms of content is greater if a more suitable replacement to the tazer is developed.
even speaking about "content" in a svm game makes me sick. this is no damn mmorpg for crying out loud...
with weapons better at mid/low range than the rifle you got yourself a nice map balance problem on every map where far weapon range isn't needed.
QuoteAlso, if you buff the tazer too much, you run back into the problem with PT where the merc was extremely deadly from both close and far away, and the tazer is one of those "must have" gadgets that we're trying to avoid.
there's nothing wrong with a more deadly merc in trade off for one free gadget slot less. considering he has to use up another one for gasmask, he pretty much wasted 2 slots if the spies don't choose to attack him directly. don't get me wrong, i see the problem with the godlike pt merc, but then again he got an insanely long tazer range and the spies had no proper flashbangs, heartbeatsensor etc.
i totally agree on the healing stuff, it's plain annoying to kill a spy 99% time after time.
Quotethere's nothing wrong with a more deadly merc in trade off for one free gadget slot less. considering he has to use up another one for gasmask, he pretty much wasted 2 slots if the spies don't choose to attack him directly. don't get me wrong, i see the problem with the godlike pt merc, but then again he got an insanely long tazer range and the spies had no proper flashbangs, heartbeatsensor etc.
1) read above about making the gasmask innate 2) oh noes, the tazer uses a gadget slot. That downside alone is not enough to justify allowing it to negate the merc's main weakness with the rifle.
You shouldn't be limited by the amount of team heals you have. Instead give it a fixed internal cooldown, like 3 minutes or so. That way, 2 spies can't go aggro, retreat and repeat because after the first retreat the spy won't have his healing for another 3 minutes.
There's never been a problem with how healing worked before, there's no point in changing it.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 08, 2009, 01:43:50 AM
Quotethere's nothing wrong with a more deadly merc in trade off for one free gadget slot less. considering he has to use up another one for gasmask, he pretty much wasted 2 slots if the spies don't choose to attack him directly. don't get me wrong, i see the problem with the godlike pt merc, but then again he got an insanely long tazer range and the spies had no proper flashbangs, heartbeatsensor etc.
1) read above about making the gasmask innate 2) oh noes, the tazer uses a gadget slot. That downside alone is not enough to justify allowing it to negate the merc's main weakness with the rifle.
1)if you make the mask an innate gadget without reducing the free slot number to 3 you got yourself quite an overpowered merc.
2)you focus too much on the merc's close up combat weaknesses. in almost any situation in which you can taze the spy you could also charge him or simply shoot him (which is only fucked up in ct because of bad netcode) anyways, a tazer just allows the same in a safer and quicker way. im pretty sure the tazer could be a well balanced gadget again if you take out autoaim charge and play with the range and cooldown.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on September 08, 2009, 05:51:52 PM
There's never been a problem with how healing worked before, there's no point in changing it.
shooting a spy to 5hp, seeing him disappear in some stupid vent and popping out 10s later with 80hp is not only frustrating, but also bad for gameplay.
however, i don't think mutual healing is that much of a problem as it takes teamplay skill and once the mercs know there are 2 spies in one area the spies are pretty much fucked unless they are some uba-aggro players.
Quoteshooting a spy to 5hp, seeing him disappear in some stupid vent and popping out 10s later with 80hp is not only frustrating, but also bad for gameplay.
however, i don't think mutual healing is that much of a problem as it takes teamplay skill and once the mercs know there are 2 spies in one area the spies are pretty much fucked unless they are some uba-aggro players.
I agree with the first point. However, if a player gets away from you and the spies collectively get together, without you knowing, because that's not all that difficult, an instant heal is pure shit. A spy can get away from you no problem and hide themselves off the merc's patience grid. There buddy can reunite and heal to 100%. The only reason for healing to maintain instant is if the spy hits a poison mine. Otherwise, it should be a timed heal. It could even continue to be a timed heal with the poison mine. The life can drain, but when the connection to heal is happening it can stall until they are healed or they are broken up, in which it would resume.
If you can't separate spies effectively enough to stop them from getting away, then the consequence of that is fine by me. Spies aren't exactly hard to kill once your shooting them.
wrong, more often than not spies get away once you start shooting. Taze + Flash, then run works most of the time.
unless they stupidly run into a mine or something, but taz/smoke and dropping a flash along the way will make you disappear.
the only guys i know that abuse mutual healing are weezer+havoc, and the stuff they pull off shouldn't work in the first place. though i have to admit their vids are fun to watch ;D
They played the game in a way would fuck most teams because they weren't prepared for the aggro style. They didn't abuse it, they used it to an advantage. Especially with how committed they were to actually making sure it got done. Then along came the crowd of on-lookers and so began the aggro style.
This would be an instance where the aggro can get nerfed by the timed-heal.
i like this idea, about the healing. But would this lead to everyone playing stealthy because of it? If so, id rather stick to how it is atm.
my guess is that it was only possible because the mercs weren't used to that new aggro playstyle and because of the bad netcode. those guys did the same amazing thing as seefoo on the other side of the spectrum.
but back on topic. what was also very annoying was bad placement of medkits (eg club, polar vanilla).
i suggest something like this:
-remove auto-healing completely
-keep the instant mutual healing animation in the game but make it that the hp rises slowly afterwards up to 50 additional hp max; repeating the mutual healing adds another slow 50 hp rise to the current hp count
-medkits work the same, but with 100hp
-better medkit placement
Merc1: Hey! There's something funny about this medkit!
Merc2: Huh? What do you mean?
Merc1: Well, it looks a bit out of place for any intruder, perhaps we should move it to a better spot! It's hard for them to easily acces it from here.
Merc2: Screw you hippie.
Quote1)if you make the mask an innate gadget without reducing the free slot number to 3 you got yourself quite an overpowered merc.
Firstly, doing so would defeat the purpose of making the gasmask innate. Secondly, the spies also have more room for an extra gadget as well. You can't predict that the mercs will be hugely overpowered, particularly if you fix the finickiness of grabbing and jumping on them.
Quotemy guess is that it was only possible because the mercs weren't used to that new aggro playstyle and because of the bad netcode.
I see nothing wrong with the way havoc/weezer played. In fact, few people have been able to pull off the aggro coordination that they could, which goes to show that it's not so skill-less and abusive as you think.
The bad netcode was really the only defense the mercs had...funny punching, lag charging, uzi lagging, berserking and jumping before the spy could punish you for it, etc.
i never said it was skill-less or abusive. in fact, i admire them just like a handful of other players coming up with a unique play style that everyone before thought was impossible. what those guys did takes immense teamplay coordination skill and that's one of the reasons why i don't think quick mutual healing is a bad thing. and i have to admit, you're probably true about the netcode being rather of advantage to the mercs (thouch it's way easier to play aggro as host) as it's theoretically nearly impossible to stop a perfect aggro approach.
With your idea about continuing the instant mutual healing, I would just spam it if I knew I could stack in another 50hp to fill the spy's hp. Make the heal take 3 sec if you're worried about it. It should not at all be instant.
you got me wrong, you can't spam it. probably i should explain it better (my english skills suck, sorry for any confusion), here's an example:
spy has 20 hp left > quick mutual healing like in ct > hp rising to 70 with 5hp/second (minus damage taken in between) > another mutual healing spamming attempt when the spy is on 25hp > hp continues to rise with 5hp/second, but now it will stop at 75 (minus damage taken in between)
with a system like this, spamming is impossible, and it takes two well-timed mutual healings to get out more than 50 additional hp.
regarding poison mines: mutual healing stops the poison and starts the same process.
Quote from: I <3 U on September 09, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
wrong, more often than not spies get away once you start shooting. Taze + Flash, then run works most of the time.
Maybe for you, on the other hand I don't have shit aim :).
I think that slowly increasing the spy health after being healed won't change the gameplay as much, which is why I think it should be implemented. Sure, the spy will have to be cautious for a few more seconds. I think heath kit placement is also pretty important.
as far as gadgets, mercs should get a gadget called Bubble Wrap, where they could place on the floor where they see fit. And no matter how slow a spy is going, if the spy steps on the bubble wrap, it makes noise on the Merc sound detector. effing sick idea!!!!!!!!!
...........lol
We should also give the spies some of 007s exploding coins.
Seriously...I love those damn things in Everything or Nothing.