Project Stealth

A serie of topics in attempt to resurrect the forum

Introduction
Although pretty much everything has been discussed, but spread over quite a number of topics, it would be pretty awesome if everything is rethought (again) and bundled in one official topic. This first post will be updated reguraly with ideas, thoughts, stories, anything ;)

The first topic in the series: The Spy.

What about it?
What should the spy be able to do (animation wise)? Do you want multiple spy skins/models? If so, should they be unlocks like DA? What should the story/history of the spy be? Which gadgets should he have? Should there be a limit on how many gadgets he can carry? Should there be ammocrates for the spy as they are for the mercenary? Anything you can think up!

Note: Don't go really deep into the gadgets themself (mechanics), just say which ones you think the spy should have. Only new ones in comparision to PT/CT/DA should get a small description for later discussion. Each gadget will get its own topic for discussion!

What do we know already
- Works for some corporation, but not how he ended up there.
- Non-lethal besides neckbreak.
- Stealthy
- Cool moves such as diving, wallflip, back to wall.
- Can climb pretty much everywhere (freeroaming)

What does the community think?
- Multiple models, but only slight changes. Multiple skins would be cool, too.
- Random drop of items.
- 3 rounds of sticky shocker in one go. Recharge afterwards.
- Story: Private corporation, as long as it's not out of revenge.
- A spy humiliation move (LOL: teabagging with physics!)
- DA like animations and escape moves
- Disorientating gas out of wrist (See image 1)

Attachments
Image 1:
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg301.imageshack.us%2Fimg301%2F3808%2Fspiy.jpg&hash=97bc72c666bb4759cef7132a8e87e25b4edeb85c)

I wouldn't mind different spy models. But make the differences small like spy A has a pouch on his left chest and spy B would have it on his belt for example. Same goes for mercs. No huge differences just enough to make it look like we're not playing star wars. (clones ftl)

Since spies don't use bullets there's no reason for ammo crates for spies, though it would be nice if the round takes longer then avarage to get a gadget drop somewhere. So spies don't get crippled when they've run out of gadgets after 5 attempts to hack something.

Something like 3 rounds of sticky shocker would be nice to have. Not a lot of them but enough to immobalize a merc for ~8 seconds or so. Make it have an arm time based on how far the merc is from the spy so it won't be exploited for close combat.

There's not much background needed for the mercenaries since well, they are mercenaries.

For spies I would say they work for an unknown brance of a country's secret service. Or perhaps even a private corporation that wants to eliminate tough compitition in the business. As long as they don't work out of revenge it's fine really.

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on November 19, 2009, 02:45:04 PM
I wouldn't mind different spy models. But make the differences small like spy A has a pouch on his left chest and spy B would have it on his belt for example. Same goes for mercs. No huge differences just enough to make it look like we're not playing star wars. (clones ftl)  different suits would be nice but dont make it too complex O_o.

Since spies don't use bullets there's no reason for ammo crates for spies, though it would be nice if the round takes longer then avarage to get a gadget drop somewhere. So spies don't get crippled when they've run out of gadgets after 5 attempts to hack something. No this isnt Modern war fare 2 , please don't turn it out to be that way.

Something like 3 rounds of sticky shocker would be nice to have. Not a lot of them but enough to immobalize a merc for ~8 seconds or so. Make it have an arm time based on how far the merc is from the spy so it won't be exploited for close combat. fail

There's not much background needed for the mercenaries since well, they are mercenaries.

For spies I would say they work for an unknown brance of a country's secret service. Or perhaps even a private corporation that wants to eliminate tough compitition in the business. As long as they don't work out of revenge it's fine really. who knows

I would like a bitch-slap move for the spies.

Also a genuine teabagging move. I am tired of improvising with the crouch button.

Quote from: MR.Mic on November 20, 2009, 04:06:54 AM
I would like a bitch-slap move for the spies.

Also a genuine teabagging move. I am tired of improvising with the crouch button.

Agreed, Lennard needs to start working on advanced nut sack physics.

Quote from: Zedblade on November 20, 2009, 04:56:15 AM

Quote from: MR.Mic on November 20, 2009, 04:06:54 AM
I would like a bitch-slap move for the spies.

Also a genuine teabagging move. I am tired of improvising with the crouch button.

Agreed, Lennard needs to start working on advanced nut sack physics.

-Arabian Goggles
-Trojan War Helmet

Hmm, a humiliation move for the spy would be fun. It's unfair the mercs have one, but the spies don't.

Spies should totally have a model with cat ears. Or a tail. Or both.


Cats are pretty stealthy, so it makes sense, right?

I'd actually really like the spies to move like they do in DA, I've been playing it at a friends on the 360 recently and it's actually not that bad once you get into it, escape moves are particularly cool.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on November 20, 2009, 03:55:14 AM

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on November 19, 2009, 02:45:04 PM
I wouldn't mind different spy models. But make the differences small like spy A has a pouch on his left chest and spy B would have it on his belt for example. Same goes for mercs. No huge differences just enough to make it look like we're not playing star wars. (clones ftl)  different suits would be nice but dont make it too complex O_o.

Since spies don't use bullets there's no reason for ammo crates for spies, though it would be nice if the round takes longer then avarage to get a gadget drop somewhere. So spies don't get crippled when they've run out of gadgets after 5 attempts to hack something. No this isnt Modern war fare 2 , please don't turn it out to be that way.

Something like 3 rounds of sticky shocker would be nice to have. Not a lot of them but enough to immobalize a merc for ~8 seconds or so. Make it have an arm time based on how far the merc is from the spy so it won't be exploited for close combat. fail

There's not much background needed for the mercenaries since well, they are mercenaries.

For spies I would say they work for an unknown brance of a country's secret service. Or perhaps even a private corporation that wants to eliminate tough compitition in the business. As long as they don't work out of revenge it's fine really. who knows

Even a merc doesn't have his gadgets, he still has his gun loaded.
Another gadget idea for spies would be some sort of disorientating gas (like what smoke gas does but without the great area of effect) that can be fired from the wrist. Which comes directly out of the wrist, that recharges over ~3 minutes?

Interesting idea.

Dwarf, could you clarify your "disorientating smoke" idea? Like, would you have the option to "fire" it when you punch a mercenary or how do you imagine it?

Update up till now:

QuoteWhat does the community think?
- Multiple models, but only slight changes. Multiple skins would be cool, too.
- Random drop of items.
- 3 rounds of sticky shocker in one go. Recharge afterwards.
- Story: Private corporation, as long as it's not out of revenge.
- A spy humiliation move (LOL: teabagging with physics!)
- DA like animations and escape moves
- Disorientating gas out of wrist (needs clarification).

For the sake of discussion, here's the more general information we have of the spy in our Design Document, you are, ofcourse, allowed to go into the same kind of detail/nitpicking. Like, when should the spy actually make a sound?:

Quote
Spy
The spy is a highly-trained ex-soldier, working for a clandestine branch of the CIA. Using the latest technologies, he has a 100% success rate on his past missions. He's contemplating selling his expertise to the highest bidder in his time off.

Because of the nature of the job, stealth and discretion are amongst his highest values. The risk of getting injured or killed unfortunately means he will need his partner with who he's completed many missions already.

Movement & Actions
The Spy can move in a lot of different ways, basic movement exists out of:
    * Idling
    * Walking
    * Running

Where there is a distinction between Crouching and Standing.

It should be possible for the player to adjust his speed, which will have to a be a toggle between Walking and Running. The following sound patterns are applied:
    * Crouch Idle/Walk/Run: No sound
    * Stand Idle/Walk: No sound
    * Stand Run: Sound

Any kind of sound produced will be registered by the Sound Meter of the opponent (see [Weapons, Gadgets & Visions]).

From Crouch Walk/Run it is possible to Roll, this action doesn't make sound. From Stand Walk/Run it is possible to Dive, this action makes sound, unless you do it starting from crouch by very quickly switching from Crouch to Stand to execute the Dive and then back to Crouch while diving.

A Spy his main weapon is the Tazer, which is described in [Weapons, Gadgets & Visions]. He can pull it out, making the playercamera switch to an "Over-the-shoulder"-perspective, which is different than the usual Third Person Perspective. This same behaviour accurs when doing a "Back to Wall"-action, which is described in "Environmental Events" later on in this paragraph.

Additional Abilities
    * The Spy is able to incapacitate an opponent for a given period, but only by actually grabbing his component by the neck. This grabbing can only occur when the spy is pretty much right behind the opponent.
    * While grabbing, a player can also kill the opponent by breaking his neck.
    * Landing on an opponent after a high jump will kill him, a low jump will knock him down.
    * In order to defend himself, the Spy can smack his opponent.

Disclaimer: The Design Document is in no way final and is always subject to change, so, discuss!

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg301.imageshack.us%2Fimg301%2F3808%2Fspiy.jpg&hash=97bc72c666bb4759cef7132a8e87e25b4edeb85c)

Nice drawing :D Moar moar!

I love it, awesome alternative to the punch.

IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

Well, another idea Dwarf brought up were random droppings of ammo, instead of a stock place. Which I also think is a very cool idea.

Gadgets are, per definition, choosable. At least, thats how we implement gadgets in terms of programming.

Reading the Spy description made me wonder, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before, will there be multiple speed settings for the spy and the merc to use (after all, the ability to move at different speeds as a merc would be useful, otherwise the spies may be able to hear you) like in PT?

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on November 21, 2009, 03:39:08 PM
Reading the Spy description made me wonder, and I'm not sure if it's been discussed before, will there be multiple speed settings for the spy and the merc to use (after all, the ability to move at different speeds as a merc would be useful, otherwise the spies may be able to hear you) like in PT?

I had it implemented in such a way, untill I was told the merc can't move slowly (unless when aiming down the sight). Which I found odd, because pretty much every FPS allows multiple movement speeds.

Quote from: LennardF1989 on November 21, 2009, 03:17:08 PM
Well, another idea Dwarf brought up were random droppings of ammo, instead of a stock place. Which I also think is a very cool idea.

Gadgets are, per definition, choosable. At least, thats how we implement gadgets in terms of programming.

The word "random" is the one you have to think for. Basicly the point of the game is tactical advantage of the one of the teams. When yo trust the randomness to resupply your gadgets/ammo, you trust into a computer to decide where and when the bonuses will drop for you. You will not know where or when and you cant think of tactics. And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades, like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 03:47:08 AM
IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

Im going to derail this thought train, Yes it maybe a cool thing to have smoke from the wrists but A) very pointless when you have sticky cameras...which i might add have already been modeled and B) smoke gernades that do more then just a tiny spurt of gas so lets not change the entire dynamics.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
The word "random" is the one you have to think for.

You mean you don't like instas?

I mean i don't like a computer do decide where and when i will replenish, instead of me.

It would be possible to randomize some points at the start, and then keeping those static for the match. You aren't confined to pure randomness but you will need to check what spawned where once.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades (for example; it may be gadgets or etc.), like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). Then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

Not to mention the lost time when the game begins and all the players start to search for the random spawned power ups. This is just not working.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on November 21, 2009, 06:40:18 PM

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 03:47:08 AM
IMO, a gas from the wrist, if it really exist in the final release, must be choosable gadget, and with that it won't have any "recharge" period, but one time usage, which to be restored from the ammo crate at the insertion point. The only rechargable thing the spy has, must be his energy, which powers his Camo suit (if it exist in the final release) and tazer. Making any gadget  "rechargable" means putting COOLDOWN on it. This is not World of Warcraft. Putting recharge time on something also means he can kill, go somewhere safe, wait the period, then kill again. Making it one time usage with option to restore ammo at the IP, makes the spy lose more time going to the base, also risking meeting a merc on the way there. That way the things are balanced.

Im going to derail this thought train, Yes it maybe a cool thing to have smoke from the wrists but A) very pointless when you have sticky cameras...which i might add have already been modeled and B) smoke gernades that do more then just a tiny spurt of gas so lets not change the entire dynamics.

The whole point is having it as a last resort when the merc is in punch reach. So instead of punching, you can distort him with a smoke-attack, which could give you enough time to hack that final second.

This is a whole other way of using smoke (which isn't even blinding like the smoke grenade, just the instant distortion effect). I would like to see you shoot a sticky camera, go into the cameraview and pop its smoke in the fraction of a second the merc is charging at you. As in: A scenario other than where you already rigged a sticky cam somewhere.

AND! Modelling doesn't have anything to do with this in any way, if we need a glove-like wrist thingie, it can be modelled in matters of hours.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
And i know you're going to tell me "what about fixed power ups with fixed time or respawning". Well then how will you feel if your team mate is out of granades (for example; it may be gadgets or etc.), like you, and he gets the power up first (before you). Then you won't have granades for extended period of time. You will have to stop guarding your objective to lose time in searching for other power ups that actually respawned. A fixed IP (insertion point) for both teams is balanced and tactical enough for this type of game.

I'm pretty sure he meant random ammo-crates each time a round is initiated, so it's not always at the same spot when the round starts ;)

Although, your intepretation of random IP's is quite interesting, too. Imagine that mall level of CT. If we would have multiple IP's of which one was chosen random to play the round with, merc's would have no idea where to place those mines (which they now just put on every vent leading from the stock IP).

Same goes for Polar Base, you could see exactly what the spies did after spawning by using CamNet. By having a random chosen point, it also introduces a much more realistic element of surprise. Mercs don't know their enemy storywise and it should therefor be a surprise where and when they come against one.

I am totally agree with random insertion points (if it can be done). But the ammo crate for each team must be at their spawn point. If the spawn point is at different location, there will be no logical explanation. Like the moles say to the spys after the mission "We are very sorry that we misplaced the crate with ammo. We promise that wont happen again.". Or the spys, before the mission, tell to each other "Hey lets place the ammo crate on a totally different spot from the IP. That way it can be more interesting. Dont you think?"

Also, What will be the type of multiplay? 2v2? 3v3?

Then again, do we really want to "disturb" the Spy players with a choice where to place an ammo crate?

In the most light sense, random ammocrates can also mean at different locations within the IP (for the sake of variation, on the table, below the table, on the left, on the right, etc). Or indeed, to give it a more cinematic feeling, someone tells you the mole left resupplies at location X, which is then pinpointed on the HUD/Minimap.

From the beginning, I've always thought we should allow both (2vs2, 3vs3).

I didn't mean to give the opportunity to the spys to chose where to place the ammo crate. But what ever. The whole idea with the Random IPs is quite good. Also will there be fixed number of the IPs possible or this will be different for each map? And when both 2v2 and 3v3 will be enabled, will there be 2v2 and 3v3 separated maps? And will the users be able to create their own?

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
I didn't mean to give the opportunity to the spys to chose where to place the ammo crate. But what ever.

Then please enlight me what you meant :)

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
The whole idea with the Random IPs is quite good.

Thank you.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
Also will there be fixed number of the IPs possible or this will be different for each map?

Would depend on the mapper.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
And when both 2v2 and 3v3 will be enabled, will there be 2v2 and 3v3 separated maps?

I don't really like forcing certain stuff, if people want to play a map best suit for 2vs2, with 3vs3, then they should be allowed to do that.

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
And will the users be able to create their own?

Ofcourse, we will supply players with a level editor... and a big fat manual ;D Though, don't expect to get it right after the first release, we first want a solid game.

The whole conversation i made with the spies talking where to place the ammo crate on the map, was to show that there is no logic in choosing different from the IP location for the ammo crate. If 2/3 spies choose an insertion point and carry the ammo crate with them, they will prefer to put it somewhere at the IP.

But then again, if we look at the things from other angle, they may have been undercover from quite some time and have the opportunity to place the crate somewhere where they want. In that case there will be only 2 possible options: place the crate somewhere on the map so it is on equal time from any objective, and at the IP. If they place the crate somewhere on the map, the mercs will be able to count the gadgets you use and then when some of the spies wants to restock, they will be able to easily guard the spy crate. So again the only logical place to put the crate in, is the IP, which is unreachable by the mercs. You can make it on a random spot somewhere IN the IP, but  placing an ammo crate where it can be guarded will be quite unbalanced.

I see. BTW, with the random IP's I didn't meant you can really choose one as with Battlefield, but more one thats randomly chosen by the game on startup.

Say there are 3 IP's made by the mapper. When the level is loaded, the game randomly choses one of those 3 and all spies will always spawn there for as long as the round lasts.

Yeah i got your point from the previous posts. Its good idea. The best of the "mods" (because it is almost sure it will be a GAME) is that the creators talk to the players. I mean if Ubi talked to us like you, the story would be very different. I think PS will be very good game. You should consider actually selling it for like 4-6$, because you really do make some efforts. You must get something for these efforts you make after all. Also will there be Xbox 360 version of the PS or it'll be PC/PS3 only? (sorry for the question in spy discussion)

No, don't excuse yourself, that's where these topics are for, they raise questions :)

UT3 didn't run on Linux/Mac OS X natively (only through emulators like Wine HQ). Although it was possible to make mods work on a PS3, Microsoft was still a bitch for allowing mods on their console and I wouldn't count on that changing soon (same goes for a Linux client...).

Quote from: Swiftling on November 21, 2009, 08:30:50 PM
The whole conversation i made with the spies talking where to place the ammo crate on the map, was to show that there is no logic in choosing different from the IP location for the ammo crate. If 2/3 spies choose an insertion point and carry the ammo crate with them, they will prefer to put it somewhere at the IP.

But then again, if we look at the things from other angle, they may have been undercover from quite some time and have the opportunity to place the crate somewhere where they want. In that case there will be only 2 possible options: place the crate somewhere on the map so it is on equal time from any objective, and at the IP. If they place the crate somewhere on the map, the mercs will be able to count the gadgets you use and then when some of the spies wants to restock, they will be able to easily guard the spy crate. So again the only logical place to put the crate in, is the IP, which is unreachable by the mercs. You can make it on a random spot somewhere IN the IP, but  placing an ammo crate where it can be guarded will be quite unbalanced.

Because Mercs can crawl up in every ventilation shaft. /sarcasm

Placing stuff random on start up is a great addition. Screw tactics to be honest. Because that will monotome the hell out of it with no replay value. The game should be balanced around handling a situation correctly instead, where crucial dicision are key.

The dev's should avoid a situation like this: Plant mines in spot A, B and C. Guard D every map rotation.


On a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on November 23, 2009, 04:46:15 PM
Because Mercs can crawl up in every ventilation shaft. /sarcasm

Well if you can place a big ammo crate in a ventilation shaft, i agree with you. I know cameras and gadgets are small but small + small + small = big. And the crate must supply 2/3 spies, so the ammo it holds enlarge the crate too. And the crate becomes big.

Because ammo crates can be placed in shafts. /sarcasm

Also, if you want random stuff, buy UT3 (i am not against randomness or UT3 [i have the game bought recently], but randomness in SC successor is...). Splinter cell always ment tactics. Stealth is nothing without tactics. Spying is tactics.

Why don't we screw the voice chat in the game and the chat too, so we can do random stuff in a team based game? Why don't we screw dedicated servers, friend lists and etc. and play with random players, on random maps, on random mods? Why don't you mix random materials and see if it will blow your brains out?

When a merc places a mine at famous point (if he doesn't, its not monotome) every time, spies think of another tactic to go past the mine. This stimulates the merc to place the mine on different location. The circle closes. That is how the monotome ends.

QuoteOn a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

Huh, wut?

@Swiftling, it seems you have mixed feelings about randomness initiated on startup all of a sudden? Or am I missunderstanding?

Quote from: LennardF1989 on November 23, 2009, 09:58:21 PM

QuoteOn a side note, disabling being able to plant mines within 3 meter of an objective. Blowing up an objective is OK while letting it hack is bad? Riiiight.

Huh, wut?

He means that it doesn't make sense to put an explosive right next to the thing you are protecting. In the real world, if the mine went off, the objective would be destroyed. Luckily, this is a video game so who gives a fuck. If the merc wants to place a mine right next to the objective, let him. It's usually the easiest one to find and disable.

About the teabagging move earlier in the thread, how amazing would it be to force the merc to watch it in first person through his dead character's visor?  Just seeing those balls coming towards your face over and over again would be enough to make you throw you computer at your old neighbor.

Not even a joke.  This has never been in any other game.  The only teabagging style reference in a game I've seen was an achievement for teabagging your opponent.  This would be miles better.  There would be a teabagging time, or "TB Time", where the merc cannot watch his partner while he spawns and is forced to watch the saggy sack of seeds coming storming towards his screen.  MAKE.  IT. HAPPEN.

Quote@Swiftling, it seems you have mixed feelings about randomness initiated on startup all of a sudden? Or am I missunderstanding?

No i didn't. It's different when we talk about a random point AT the IP and random point ON THE WHOLE MAP.
He wants everything, exept the game making and the players in it, to be random. I want only focused things in the game to be random. Like the IP, the ammo crate at random point at the IP.

QuoteWhy don't we screw the voice chat in the game and the chat too, so we can do random stuff in a team based game? Why don't we screw dedicated servers, friend lists and etc. and play with random players, on random maps, on random mods? Why don't you mix random materials and see if it will blow your brains out?

This is sarcasm.

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 24, 2009, 07:22:00 AM
About the teabagging move earlier in the thread, how amazing would it be to force the merc to watch it in first person through his dead character's visor?  Just seeing those balls coming towards your face over and over again would be enough to make you throw you computer at your old neighbor.

Not even a joke.  This has never been in any other game.  The only teabagging style reference in a game I've seen was an achievement for teabagging your opponent.  This would be miles better.  There would be a teabagging time, or "TB Time", where the merc cannot watch his partner while he spawns and is forced to watch the saggy sack of seeds coming storming towards his screen.  MAKE.  IT. HAPPEN.

Also, this should happen for spies as well.  Instead of watching your body blink then disappear like in Super mario bros, you watch through your dead face in first person while the merc can bag you if he wishes, until your body disappears. 

Of all my occasionally crappy ideas, this one is the greatest of all.

2 posts I made a while back, reposted for your viewing pleasure.

Gadget Design Theory

Spy vs. Merc gameplay is based on 2 different teams.

The attacking team is the Spies, who lack the direct firepower required to overpower the Mercs, so instead must use their acrobatics and their indirect combat abilities to secure objectives, or kill the Mercs

The Mercs are the defending team, who have direct firepower, but the mobility of the Spies.

The Spies job is to evade and escape the Mercs, and complete the objectives, while the Mercs have 2 possibilities, either kill the Spies, or prevent them from capturing the objectives for the allotted time period.

This makes thinking up gadgets much easier. It means the Spy gadgets must do one of the following:

Assist in detection (Heartbeat sensor, Spy bullet, Spy camera)
Assist in evasion (Camouflage, Alarm snare, Spy camera)
Assist in escape (Smoke, Flash and Chaff grenades)
Assist in capturing of objectives (None)

While for the Merc gadgets, they must:

Assist in detection (Flare, Spy trap, Camnet)
Preform area denial (Mines, Spy trap)
Assist in combat (Frag grenade, Taser)
Assist in survival (Backpack, Gas mask)

Gas mask is a special one, as it is purely a counter for 2 spy gadgets, both of which are overpowering without gas mask. Meaning that the Merc must always take it, regardless of if the spy takes one of the 2 gadgets.

All gadgets must fall into one of these categories, and must be able to compete with, but not beat them, in their abilities.

The following is simply my idea on how to fix the gas mask.

I propose that as a gadget choice, Gas mask be removed, and be added as a permanent ability of the Merc, preventing this slot from being wasted.

Gadget ideas

Merc:

The EMP mine disables the spy's visions for x seconds, disables the spy's gadgets for y seconds, and depletes his energy bar. It has a larger explosive radius than proximity mines, and is triggered by laser or proximity, depending on what the devs choose. This does not affect passive security, but does affect Mercs.

The C4 mine can be thrown a short distance and sticks to any wall. It is manually detonated by Mercs, and has a delay of x seconds. Its blast radius is larger than a proximity mine's. It is visible under thermal.

With the addition of these two mines, I recommend that Mercs be limited to using 3/5 mines.

Spy:

The EMI suit disables all nearby equipment including mines, and tracking devices (even attached ones), for as long as they are within the radius of the suit. The suit constantly drains energy while active, able to remain active for x seconds. As soon as objects leave the radius of the suit, they reactivate instantly. This also has the side effect of making a massive EMF field. Might be deactivated if hacking objectives if devs choose to make it so.

Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases its effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker. However, the spy cannot pull out his sticky shocker.

No one has anything to say about the first-person-teabag friendly-death-cam?

Quote from: Kubanator on November 27, 2009, 02:15:30 AM
2 posts I made a while back, reposted for your viewing pleasure.

Gadget Design Theory

Spy vs. Merc gameplay is based on 2 different teams.

The attacking team is the Spies, who lack the direct firepower required to overpower the Mercs, so instead must use their acrobatics and their indirect combat abilities to secure objectives, or kill the Mercs

The Mercs are the defending team, who have direct firepower, but the mobility of the Spies.

The Spies job is to evade and escape the Mercs, and complete the objectives, while the Mercs have 2 possibilities, either kill the Spies, or prevent them from capturing the objectives for the allotted time period.

This makes thinking up gadgets much easier. It means the Spy gadgets must do one of the following:

Assist in detection (Heartbeat sensor, Spy bullet, Spy camera)
Assist in evasion (Camouflage, Alarm snare, Spy camera)
Assist in escape (Smoke, Flash and Chaff grenades)
Assist in capturing of objectives (None)

While for the Merc gadgets, they must:

Assist in detection (Flare, Spy trap, Camnet)
Preform area denial (Mines, Spy trap)
Assist in combat (Frag grenade, Taser)
Assist in survival (Backpack, Gas mask)

Gas mask is a special one, as it is purely a counter for 2 spy gadgets, both of which are overpowering without gas mask. Meaning that the Merc must always take it, regardless of if the spy takes one of the 2 gadgets.

All gadgets must fall into one of these categories, and must be able to compete with, but not beat them, in their abilities.

The following is simply my idea on how to fix the gas mask.

I propose that as a gadget choice, Gas mask be removed, and be added as a permanent ability of the Merc, preventing this slot from being wasted.

Gadget ideas

Merc:

The EMP mine disables the spy's visions for x seconds, disables the spy's gadgets for y seconds, and depletes his energy bar. It has a larger explosive radius than proximity mines, and is triggered by laser or proximity, depending on what the devs choose. This does not affect passive security, but does affect Mercs.

The C4 mine can be thrown a short distance and sticks to any wall. It is manually detonated by Mercs, and has a delay of x seconds. Its blast radius is larger than a proximity mine's. It is visible under thermal.

With the addition of these two mines, I recommend that Mercs be limited to using 3/5 mines.

Spy:

The EMI suit disables all nearby equipment including mines, and tracking devices (even attached ones), for as long as they are within the radius of the suit. The suit constantly drains energy while active, able to remain active for x seconds. As soon as objects leave the radius of the suit, they reactivate instantly. This also has the side effect of making a massive EMF field. Might be deactivated if hacking objectives if devs choose to make it so.

Active Countermeasure is a device that negates the detection abilities of the Merc. When equipped and selected it increases its effectiveness when there is more lighting, forcing the Merc to use his regular vision. Under near total darkness, this device blocks detection from x meters away. In the light, it stops detection from y meters away. When activated it constantly drains energy, lasting the spy z seconds and renders the spy completely invisible to motion tracking, EMF vision, laser, and spy tracker. However, the spy cannot pull out his sticky shocker.

1) Kubanator the mercenaries were already winning most of the matches in Chaos Theory (given mostly even teams). You want to make that more difficult by letting them have another free gadget?
2) C4 mine seems too much like Battlefield to me. And then there would also be the risk of satchel camping, which would make disarming difficult. Assuming of course the merc doesn't start patrolling and eventually forget about it.
3) EMP suit? I'm trying to think it over in my head. It'd actually be nice to have infinite rechargeable chaff or something like that. I give this one a B.
4) Active Counter doesn't make any sense. Is it supposed to be like the thermoptic shit from Chaos Theory?

I have only one suggestion. Please cover up the inner-arms of the spy. I know I've mentioned this a few times, but I like my covert operatives completely covered up (except for Fisher of course).

Kubanator I believe you made a thread once about spy martial art ideas and everyone seemed to like it. Hope that gets in.

i have an idea for a humiliation move!

ok so, as soon as the merc dies, the spy player presses a special key, and then the spy pops out his dick  from inside its pants then rips the dead mercs pants off and starts fucking the merc in the ass with anal action.

what do you think?

Quote from: Roberto1223 on November 29, 2009, 11:16:00 PM
i have an idea for a humiliation move!

ok so, as soon as the merc dies, the spy player presses a special key, and then the spy pops out his dick  from inside its pants then rips the dead mercs pants off and starts fucking the merc in the ass with anal action.

what do you think?

Too much time would be lost animating.

Quote from: Random Person on November 29, 2009, 11:52:14 PM

Quote from: Roberto1223 on November 29, 2009, 11:16:00 PM
i have an idea for a humiliation move!

ok so, as soon as the merc dies, the spy player presses a special key, and then the spy pops out his dick  from inside its pants then rips the dead mercs pants off and starts fucking the merc in the ass with anal action.

what do you think?

Too much time would be lost animating.

That's one epic reply.

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 27, 2009, 10:08:27 PM
No one has anything to say about the first-person-teabag friendly-death-cam?

I think it's fair to have a humaliation move for the Spy too.

How quickly this conversation degenerated.

Quote from: LennardF1989 on November 30, 2009, 01:17:18 AM

Quote from: Random Person on November 29, 2009, 11:52:14 PM

Quote from: Roberto1223 on November 29, 2009, 11:16:00 PM
i have an idea for a humiliation move!

ok so, as soon as the merc dies, the spy player presses a special key, and then the spy pops out his dick  from inside its pants then rips the dead mercs pants off and starts fucking the merc in the ass with anal action.

what do you think?

Too much time would be lost animating.

That's one epic reply.

Is it?

I'd like the spy to have the ability to walk on all surfaces in exchange for all his gadgets.
::)

Quote from: LoChang on November 30, 2009, 07:52:23 AM
How quickly this conversation degenerated.

Hence why I said humiliation move, instead of the other idea. LoChang hit the nail on the head, lets keep it clean.

@Random Person: Doubt that'll happen.

Quote from: LoChang on November 30, 2009, 07:52:23 AM
How quickly this conversation degenerated.

It never became good.
Between all the terrible gadget ideas and continued teabagging references, there are only a handful of decent posts here.

It's no wonder why most game players make awful game designers.

It's no humiliation move.  It's just switching the death-cam from 3rd person to 1st person and the spy/merc can take advantage of that and stuff their respective gooches in the respective faces.

Quote from: MR.Mic on November 30, 2009, 08:46:42 AM
It's no wonder why most game players make awful game designers.

hahaha! arent the designers or PS players of other video games? ...dosent every game designer play videogames?

dude how do u expect everybody to repost the same ideas from the past in a new topic... pointless... doing a summary i would understand.. but asking people to repost and re argue the same ideas is just like meeh...

Quote from: Roberto1223 on December 03, 2009, 09:19:27 AM

Quote from: MR.Mic on November 30, 2009, 08:46:42 AM
It's no wonder why most game players make awful game designers.

hahaha! arent the designers or PS players of other video games? ...dosent every game designer play videogames?

dude how do u expect everybody to repost the same ideas from the past in a new topic... pointless... doing a summary i would understand.. but asking people to repost and re argue the same ideas is just like meeh...

Perhaps you need lessons in reading comprehension.
I do hope you know what the word "most" means.

Quote from: Papa Skull on December 02, 2009, 02:27:23 AM
It's no humiliation move.  It's just switching the death-cam from 3rd person to 1st person and the spy/merc can take advantage of that and stuff their respective gooches in the respective faces.

The Spy can already grab the merc and walk around and talk with him. Does there really need to be anything else? And to be honest, I'm not sure there even needs to be one for the mercs. Most skilled players I knew simply capped the ko'd spy in the head.

I got an idea for a simple yet effective "taunt" finisher for a spy.

It will go something like this:

1) Spy neckgrabs the merc
2) Snaps neck slightly, allowing the merc to live for ~20 seconds but unable to do anything.
3) Spy drops merc while letting the merc watch his killer.
4) When merc is on the floor the spies can freely move, escape. Or they choose to finish off the merc, using their foot to squash the last bit of life out of the merc.

I made a GIF of what it "could" look like. See below. Clip is broken down in 2, first half is 3d view, second half is what the merc sees.





(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg441.imageshack.us%2Fimg441%2F7826%2Fmvs.gif&hash=8965484ecc2ae08e31960505110eabed45762b44)

I like that style. Wanna do some comics? But you're currently using a more CT-like Spy, instead of PS's. xD

My jokes are most of the times pretty vulgar and totaly not funny. I could draw it for you if you have a proper script.


And /careface about wether it's CT spy or PS spy, you totaly missed the point. Merc is also CT so should've whined about that too.

I'm thinkin' Project Stealth Machinima video (sorry I just AM).

Cool, but unbalanced because if you could grab a merc, wait for 15 seconds, do a taunt move that lasts 20 seconds, and then wait 10 seconds to re-spawn, you're taking out 45 seconds of his playtime.

I made the seconds up. Who says it all final? Am I a lead designer of PS?

white dwarfs idea is good.

if you want a shorter humiliation move, maybe consider implementing the move sam fisher did when interrogating where he would hit the mercs head with his fist as if he were knocking on a door. idk something like that..

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 04, 2009, 10:51:55 PM
I made the seconds up. Who says it all final? Am I a lead designer of PS?

Did I say it's final or that you're the lead designer of PS? If you have an idea and post it, be prepared for criticism, you can't exactly come back on that with the point that you 'made it up'.

If you fail to see the bigger picture then do not criticise.

Nothing is more humiliating than getting gum stuck on your shoe.  New humiliating gadget.  A Chewing Gum Mine.  Select the gadget from your menu, chew it, and stick it in designated spot on the floor, and watch the embarrassment ensue.  Dog shit variation now available.

Make it happen.

Actually, ever have a dream where you go to school with nothing but your underwear?  How about this.  Hallucinogen Gas capsule on your arm.  You grab the enemy, deploy gas, and watch the merc or spy randomly strut about hiding behind boxes to avoid the embarrassment from the laughter of his peers.

Make it happen.

How about having the spy grab the merc from behind, hit him hard so that he's still conscious but unable to do anything, then turn the merc around, have the spy lift him up a bit so he can't move, and then the spy should say something, like "Hello there, sissy" or something equally humiliating.

Merc	Spy
Grabbed	Holding the merc, like in CT
Nothing, maybe tries to break free.	Disables the mercs movement capabilities (in some way)
Nothing, watches	Turns the merc around so that they're face to face
Nothing, watches	Lifts the merc slightly
Nothing, watches	Says something creepy/ humiliating
Nothing, watches	Finishing move (headbutt, strangling, whatever)

And all this should take perhaps about 3-4 seconds.

Quote from: Random Person on December 06, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
How about having the spy grab the merc from behind, hit him hard so that he's still conscious but unable to do anything, then turn the merc around, have the spy lift him up a bit so he can't move, and then the spy should say something, like "Hello there, sissy" or something equally humiliating.

Merc	Spy
Grabbed	Holding the merc, like in CT
Nothing, maybe tries to break free.	Disables the mercs movement capabilities (in some way)
Nothing, watches	Turns the merc around so that they're face to face
Nothing, watches	Lifts the merc slightly
Nothing, watches	Says something creepy/ humiliating
Nothing, watches	Finishing move (headbutt, strangling, whatever)

And all this should take perhaps about 3-4 seconds.

Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

So? It's just a humiliation move, I didn't say the spy should be throwing 200kg boxes at the mercs ::)

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

If you fail to see the bigger picture then do not criticise.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 06, 2009, 11:42:36 PM

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

If you fail to see the bigger picture then do not criticise.

My comment is perfectly acceptable.

What else is humiliating?  Oh yes!  Rejection from women (or so I've heard lol).

How about a sexy spy robot drone?  She would roll around and say "you're ugly" or "you smell like cheese and look poor".  This humiliation move would only be accessible after grabbing the merc.  Maybe while the merc is grabbed the sexy drone would come out, pull down the merc's pants, and tell the merc how small his penis is (as if the spy telling you that in your ear wasn't enough).  How humiliating?

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM

Quote from: Random Person on December 06, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
How about having the spy grab the merc from behind, hit him hard so that he's still conscious but unable to do anything, then turn the merc around, have the spy lift him up a bit so he can't move, and then the spy should say something, like "Hello there, sissy" or something equally humiliating.

Merc	Spy
Grabbed	Holding the merc, like in CT
Nothing, maybe tries to break free.	Disables the mercs movement capabilities (in some way)
Nothing, watches	Turns the merc around so that they're face to face
Nothing, watches	Lifts the merc slightly
Nothing, watches	Says something creepy/ humiliating
Nothing, watches	Finishing move (headbutt, strangling, whatever)

And all this should take perhaps about 3-4 seconds.

Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

Not that I support what Roberto is saying, but the spies agility and strength would be close to equal considering all of the acrobatics they tend to do. Yes they are speedy, but they are not some weak piece of shit. They would be able to lift themselves with ease, therefore lifting another human also well built and equally agile doesn't seem to be a task.

Ofcourse they could lift up a merc if they wanted to. It's just compared to let's say the SvM merc humiliation it is a bit lengthy animation wise. But then again, I/We still don't really know wether animations will be as sluggish as in SvM (animations need to finish before you can do something else).


Though what would be nice is to add to Random Person his idea is that the spy, who useally carry suicide pills incase of a capture. to use 1 of his suicide pills to disable the merc long enough to humiliate before the pills final effect kicks in. This also secures a certain death for the merc incase the spy has to run or get's killed by the other merc.

Most of our animations will be 'cancellable'. Only when it's needed of course...

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 07, 2009, 03:07:29 PM
use 1 of his suicide pills to disable the merc long enough to humiliate before the pills final effect kicks in.

This could work quite well, but have him inject the stuff instead.
Digestion takes way too long, while injections, on the other hand, kick in quite quickly.
Also, how about having the spy just bitchslap the merc?

Either a bitch slap or a wet finger in the merc his ears.

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 07, 2009, 12:42:58 AM

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 06, 2009, 11:42:36 PM

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

If you fail to see the bigger picture then do not criticise.

My comment is perfectly acceptable.

That's the point, you made the comment when mine was too, I commented like that for you to hopefully see what I was getting at :P.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 07, 2009, 06:01:17 PM

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 07, 2009, 12:42:58 AM

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 06, 2009, 11:42:36 PM

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on December 06, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Remember that the spies are agile, not some bruut that can lift up a merc in armour withour breaking a sweat.

If you fail to see the bigger picture then do not criticise.

My comment is perfectly acceptable.

That's the point, you made the comment when mine was too, I commented like that for you to hopefully see what I was getting at :P.

My point is, criticising a tiny point such as numbers while completely ignoring the rest is useless for both ends. Hence if you can't read all of it and respond to that, do not post about it.

I wasn't "completely ignoring" what you said at all, here's what I said.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 04, 2009, 10:32:33 PM
Cool, but unbalanced because if you could grab a merc, wait for 15 seconds, do a taunt move that lasts 20 seconds, and then wait 10 seconds to re-spawn, you're taking out 45 seconds of his playtime.

I read the idea and I think it's cool, but I also thought that the timing of the move was a drawback. I'm not the one who's been ignoring what's been said, ironically enough. It's also not a "tiny point", because as I explained it seriously affects the outcome of the move :).

This thread is kinda shitty.

One note on random insertion points: While the fact that the mercs always know which way the spies are coming from puts the spies at a disadvantage, I do not want a game that is left up to "chance." With random spawn points, certain access configurations are going to be better than others.

We'll see how balance is if the game ever comes out, but if it's anything like now, one thing that could use a looking into is not replenishing the merc's equipment... ever.

Quote from: Spekkio on December 10, 2009, 02:20:51 AM
We'll see how balance is if the game ever comes out, but if it's anything like now, one thing that could use a looking into is not replenishing the merc's equipment... ever.

Including ammo? Would enhance a better claustrofobing feeling.

Ammo is Okay, but the total amount of reloads should probably be dropped. You never had to go to an ammo crate w/ the uzi.

Interesting idea.

Which brings back the old idea: Ammocrate that's not infinite, but has a number of reloads per game. Which means if one teammate uses them all, that's a problem for the other.

Would such a change introduce an army knife for when the Merc ran out of ammo?

No, ammo should never have the possibility of running out for good. That would just be ridiculous.

I was speaking about gadgets...you know, stuff like mines, nades, etc.

Nothing more silly than a merc loading up the last objective with a ton of mines and stuff and then suiciding for more equipment....or maybe you got necks and then he can do it anyway without suiciding. Either way, he gets more equipment, and the area of coverage becomes a lot harder as the game winds down. This makes your job progressively harder as time goes on, where it should be relatively equal throughout.

In that case, spekkio, a merc should never respawn with full gadgets. Instead everytime a merc dies he spawns with 75% of his gadgets. So 5 mines at start, he dies, spawns with 3 -> 2 -> 1. He can however not spawn with zero gadgets so he always has 1 of each minimal.

This will punish mercs suiciding to get more gadgets and makes killing the mercs instead of knocking them unconcious worth it.

This could also count for spies as in both cases it rewards careful playing and makes a succesful rush rewarding.

I think that when the merc reloads he loses whatever bullets were left in the clip.  Meaning if the merc had 20 rounds left in his clip, he reloads, the 20 that remained were discarded.  Thus draining the merc's ammo faster to make ammo piles less redundant.

Quote from: Papa Skull on December 11, 2009, 09:59:35 PM
I think that when the merc reloads he loses whatever bullets were left in the clip.  Meaning if the merc had 20 rounds left in his clip, he reloads, the 20 that remained were discarded.  Thus draining the merc's ammo faster to make ammo piles less redundant.

well To be honest I really think ammo crates the way it is now in chaos is fine , I mean isnt the focus shifting a bit too much from the original mission ?

which was to make something similar but have a more redefined vision :/ ....... ?

Making new gadgets for spies I can see being done and changing things up a bit but as for ammo crates o_o.. Even dblagent had ammo crates to fill up on nades and ammo =/.

I think placeable gadgets should be deactivated 1 minute after the owner dies.

That would partially negate the advantage of suiciding for more equipment, since all currently placed gadgets would be wasted.
The 1 min grace period would be to allow the merc to get back to secure an area after death.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 12, 2009, 04:38:38 AM
well To be honest I really think ammo crates the way it is now in chaos is fine , I mean isnt the focus shifting a bit too much from the original mission ?

Oh shush, it's been 3 years, things change. It's not even a mod anymore now.

Quote from: LennardF1989 on December 12, 2009, 10:39:35 AM

Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 12, 2009, 04:38:38 AM
well To be honest I really think ammo crates the way it is now in chaos is fine , I mean isnt the focus shifting a bit too much from the original mission ?

Oh shush, it's been 3 years, things change. It's not even a mod anymore now.

does not matter if its not a mod or not anymore, just because it can be a standalone , doesn't give the right or excuse that the focus should shift from the original vision.

*agrees partially with Agent*

if ps beta isn't happening very soon, you guys will lose the rest of the svm vets that stayed tuned for so long...

Quote from: Rambo on December 12, 2009, 07:59:06 PM
if ps beta isn't happening very soon, you guys will lose the rest of the svm vets that stayed tuned for so long...

thats what i was about to say but in a different context, Seriously though, I don't think Lennard

or some of the team sees the severity lying on this project , i  Mean You already got Magazine hype and all the media coverage , There is no time for slacking anymore, You can just ho and hum about this project anymore like when it had no attention to it.

I feel bad tho I personally think now I should have waited to say anything O_o .

Despite My comments I still am a firm believer you guys can do this.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 12, 2009, 08:11:23 PM

Quote from: Rambo on December 12, 2009, 07:59:06 PM
if ps beta isn't happening very soon, you guys will lose the rest of the svm vets that stayed tuned for so long...

thats what i was about to say but in a different context, Seriously though, I don't think Lennard

or some of the team sees the severity lying on this project , i  Mean You already got Magazine hype and all the media coverage , There is no time for slacking anymore, You can just ho and hum about this project anymore like when it had no attention to it.

I feel bad tho I personally think now I should have waited to say anything O_o Upon promoting the hell out of it to get the word out.

Despite My comments I still am a firm believer you guys can do this.

edit: sorry the double post :P

Quote from: Rambo on December 12, 2009, 07:59:06 PM
if ps beta isn't happening very soon, you guys will lose the rest of the svm vets that stayed tuned for so long...

Is there some sort of community hivemind thing going on? Why the hell wasn't I invited?

am i not good enough for you is that what you're trying to say

Quote from: MR.Mic on December 12, 2009, 04:46:03 AM
I think placeable gadgets should be deactivated 1 minute after the owner dies.

That would partially negate the advantage of suiciding for more equipment, since all currently placed gadgets would be wasted.
The 1 min grace period would be to allow the merc to get back to secure an area after death.

Hmm...I like that necking someone could disable all his stuff, but what if you already disabled his stuff manually? Then it does nothing except reward the player with more equipment.

I still think restricting merc's equipment to their starting loadout is the best idea. A loadout of frags/backpack/mask/mines gives enough equipment to kill a spy 11x.

i couldnt find a conclusion to the issue of "random gadget drops" in here, what about airdrop like in COD MW2? if spies are who they say they are, an airdrop would be easy and they could designate it with an IR Flare maybe, so the mercs cannot see it in their vision without NVG.

I guess many levels will mostly be indoors, so airdrops aren't possible.

why would random powerups even be considered! I thought you guys were better than that lol. It takes away from strategy and is more of the luck of the draw. I don't want no computer deciding the outcome of the game for me. C'mon now.

If its really a popular suggestion to add airdrops of random powerups (like a RUN AND GUN brainless game MW2), than I would suggest in making another gametype possibly, based around..random powerups. Or something lol.

Just my opinion

Quote from: crossfadex on December 26, 2009, 05:24:33 PM
why would random powerups even be considered! I thought you guys were better than that lol. It takes away from strategy and is more of the luck of the draw. I don't want no computer deciding the outcome of the game for me. C'mon now.

If its really a popular suggestion to add airdrops of random powerups (like a RUN AND GUN brainless game MW2), than I would suggest in making another gametype possibly, based around..random powerups. Or something lol.

Just my opinion

You fail to see what this "supply drop" is about.

It doesn't matter anyways because airdrops can't occur indoors. Unless you want to add 2,000 pound weights to them so they can crash through the ceilings.
And in that case...let's go the Battlefield route and start making destructible environments. Hell, let's make destructible objectives. Spies can't hack that computer or steal that disk if you blow it to smithereens beforehand.
The only place I would ever tolerate that is on rooftop spawn points--which there are actually a lot of.

LOL.

we're losing this battle

start fighting, or i'll find someone who can

Quote from: Savior20061 on December 26, 2009, 09:14:51 PM
It doesn't matter anyways because airdrops can't occur indoors. Unless you want to add 2,000 pound weights to them so they can crash through the ceilings.
And in that case...let's go the Battlefield route and start making destructible environments. Hell, let's make destructible objectives. Spies can't hack that computer or steal that disk if you blow it to smithereens beforehand.
The only place I would ever tolerate that is on rooftop spawn points--which there are actually a lot of.

Could it be?  Rockets for spies?  ohmyfuckinggodfuckyesshitfuckhellfuckyashitlolfuckyamofucks

Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on December 27, 2009, 07:09:03 AM
we're losing this battle

start fighting, or i'll find someone who can

I already had plans on how to spend that gold. You. Guys. Suck!

ENEMY AC-130 ABOVE!

Quote from: Penguin on December 27, 2009, 09:05:58 PM
ENEMY AC-130 ABOVE!

Nuclear launch imminent

1:00 until destruction (of the 2 mercs)

haha... merc gotta have javelins man, they gotz location lock 2z.

on a side note, will the bomb game mode in PS be like Search and Destroy? that would be kinda cool to mod bomb into 2 modes- original and S&D lo.lz.

search and destroy, cod style, sounds like a fun idea.  Not sure how it would work in practice but at first thought I think it might be worth discussing.

Quote from: Papa Skull on December 28, 2009, 08:03:12 AM
search and destroy, cod style, sounds like a fun idea.  Not sure how it would work in practice but at first thought I think it might be worth discussing.

Why not create a topic and do so.

Well, Lennard, it's quite simple really.  I am not taken seriously on this board and so I do not intend to be serious.  I might need a dummy account.  If you see a new thread about a search and destroy style mode authored by someone with 1 post, then it's definitely not me guys.

Spies that can drag merc around forever and mercs losing ammo when they die... Doesnt sound very fun.
Thought the game was about stealth (From the spy side).
Shouldn't the spy get a penalty for even getting in contact with a merc? The spy aint very stealty if he gets into cqb, is he?
The whole point should be for the spys to stay out of sight. Not just kill everybody to get a few more secs to complete an objective.
Its sure as hell shouldn't give the spies an advantage for killing a merc. If anything they should lose some of theyre ammo doing so.

Just because its possible to takedown a merc shouldn't mean you HAVE to. Only if theres only one way out.
Thought that was why people liked the first Splinter Cells and hated Conviction (Becaues of all the killing).

Merc main objective: Protect objective and seek out the spies.
Spy main objective: Destroy/get objective and stay out of sight.

Thats what I was hopping when I saw Project Stealth. Not Project Kill Stealthy ;)

I know my voice might not be worth much as a new user. But it seems like this is going in the wrong direction... The direction of Conviction action!
But looking forward to see what you'll come up with.

Edit - And sorry for my bad english ;)

Hi there,

You are right for about 50%. Spy should not try to get in contact with the merc and use his gadget to prevent that too. But, there are two types of play styles in this game, referred to as aggro and non-aggro.

When going aggro, you on purposely seek out the merc whoes searching you with the intention to kill (which is quite hard because your only lethal attack is the neckbreak).

The other way is non-aggro, which is how most people would play Splinter Cell in singleplayer, trying to get past the whole level without having to kill or even knockdown anyone. Unfortunately, real players arent as dumb as AI and won't be tricked that easily with say the sound emitter or keep yelling: What was that? Where are you!? COME OUT WHEREVER YOU ARE?! So sometimes killing or just KOing is the only way to get to your real target.

Also keep in mind that SvM is a completely different take on stealth than it is in SC singleplayer. Therefor, it's never been the intention to put some "dont-kill" rule on the spies, but I do agree there should be some kind of downside for killing (not KOing I think) the Merc, simply because that was not part of your contract (You are send in to steal something, not to kill someone).

So, my question would be: What kind of "downside" do you propose for killing the mercenary? And should KOing also have some kind of downside or is that considered "legal by contract"?

I was just thinking it was looking like you would take the game a step further then the original SvsM.
With 2 spies it should be possible for one of them to trick the mercs to a section of the map so the other can complete an objective without any of them would be seen.
But I do get what you say about people not being as dumb as AI. But atleast no disadvantages for the mercs if they get killed. Maybe get a small advantage as spy if you choose to choke (black out) the merc instead of killing him. Then you have to chooes between the small advantage it would give you or have a bit more time if killing the merc.
Dont know how it should work but it just sounds wrong to punish the merc because the spy aint playing stealthy.

There are downsides of trying to kill a Merc the aggro-way:
- It takes time, which means less time left to hack objectives -> advantage for the Mercs
- You will probably die trying to get his neck -> advantage for the Mercs
- You use/waste fast-throw grenades, which can be used when escaping

The upside, if you have one grabbed, is that:
- your partner has a few more seconds to hack

And then deciding to kill or KOing him. Both have negatives: killing will probably give back some equipment, but that hasn't been decided yet, and places the Merc in his spawn point, far from the objectives, KOing doesn't place him further away, but the Merc doesn't get any new equip either.

Basically, it's a trade-off. Do you want to risk your life + respawn timer to grab a Merc? If you succeed, you have temporarily an advantage, if you fail, the Mercs are closer to their objective of annihilating the Spy team or defending till the counter is at 0.

Ya I dont know. I might not have tought it all the way thrue ;)
But seems like there's alot of focus on the ways the spies can kill a merc and what advantages it should give.
In my opninion it should diffently not give an advantage other then the time the merc will use on it. Its way to overpowered if the merc start loosing hes advantages (ammo, gadges, visions and so on).

Edit - Just seems like there should be somthing more then time and a single life in play if you chooses to go "aggro". And the spy playstyle shouldn't punish the merc (exept for the life he's still using)

Please don't look into the crazy ideas thrown around here as "a focus on the ways a spy can kill a merc" :P It's just brainstorming. And from 100 crazy ideas, 1 is usually pretty good and original and can be a nice addition. :) There's no way we're going to have Spies carry rocketlaunchers for example ;).

But theres alot of "That sounds like a good idea" ;)

But lets just say I got hung up on the "Project Stealth" name and thought "wow! Heres a multiplayer game that really tries to be stealth!" (Like in "Try not be seen").
That "aggro" style just reminds me too much of how Conviction sp looks like. Stay in the shadows, jump out and kill who you can, jump back in the shadows. Thats why I was hoppin for something like loosing points or something if the spy kill a merc. Try and force a bit of stealth on the player while still having the option to kill if thats the only way.

I might take things people say a bit to serius... As if they're allready planed.
I've just been hopping for a real stealth multiplayer game for a loooong time and alot of the ideas in here goes the complete other way.
I'll just shut up and see whats going to happen ;)

Your idea about Spies losing points when they kill a Merc is another idea. Could be used for an Extreme Stealth option, on a per-lobby basis. Kill a Merc -> lose 40 seconds of time or something. Some people, like you, will probably like it. I doubt it's balanced, because sometimes grabbing a Merc is easier than escaping, or grabbing a Merc gives your partner the chance to hack the final seconds of the objective, but in theory, almost everything is possible. That's the great thing about making our own game ;).

I think it's a terrible idea. Don't punish the spies for getting the drop on the mercenary. Their job is extremely difficult already :(.

Quote from: WK on December 30, 2009, 01:57:56 PM
But theres alot of "That sounds like a good idea" ;)

But lets just say I got hung up on the "Project Stealth" name and thought "wow! Heres a multiplayer game that really tries to be stealth!" (Like in "Try not be seen").
That "aggro" style just reminds me too much of how Conviction sp looks like. Stay in the shadows, jump out and kill who you can, jump back in the shadows. Thats why I was hoppin for something like loosing points or something if the spy kill a merc. Try and force a bit of stealth on the player while still having the option to kill if thats the only way.

I might take things people say a bit to serius... As if they're allready planed.
I've just been hopping for a real stealth multiplayer game for a loooong time and alot of the ideas in here goes the complete other way.
I'll just shut up and see whats going to happen ;)

As developers, it's not our task to approve every idea just like that, therefor we oftenly just say: Sounds like a good idea, as in: It will be discussed internally. And trust me, we really do.

As said, there is nothing that forces you to NOT kill the merc, but also nothing that forces you to kill him, it's the players choice, which has been the same in every SC game (you could go killfrenzy if you wish in there, too).

And no, you shouldn't. The main aim of this project is to at least have a classic story mode like SCCT, but thats that. A newer version of the classic mode could enforce pure stealth and punish for pbreaking that. As a Lead Programmer it's my task to keep it adaptable in such a way, and trust me (again), we can make the weirdest gametypes now, including mixed teams with different weapon loadouds, spies with mercenary guns, etc.

Besides that we've just been through the new netcode we are going to implement, although its complete potential isn't proved yet, again due to the limitness of UnrealScript ;)

Quote from: LennardF1989 on December 30, 2009, 09:42:54 PM
The main aim of this project is to at least have a classic story mode like SCCT, but thats that.

I'd like to emphasize that.
We WILL have a CT-type game mode that emulates CT story gameplay as faithfully as we can get. (minus exploits, glitches, and unbalances)
This is still our main and primary goal.

I won't discount alternative gametypes with different ideas added, but there will be a mode that adheres to CT story gameplay.

I liked your post but this is wrong.

Quote
your only lethal attack is the neckbreak

OK... CT also had the "drop boxes on the head of the merc to kill him" moves...

Quote from: LennardF1989 on January 01, 2010, 02:14:45 PM
OK... CT also had the "drop boxes on the head of the merc to kill him" moves...

Also, the jump on top of the merc's head to remove half his health move.

And the shoot mines out when merc walks by...

And the pull a merc over the ledge move...

And the punch the merc off a really high ledge move... (or into the ocean, if on offshore oilrig)

Alright alright, there is not JUST one way, but it's very limited and really depends on the situation your in. Happy now?!

Hmm, actually, I was just thinking about this.

Maybe make a game mode where it would be beneficial to be stealthy instead of killing. I'm not saying it would directly punish you, it would just be an annoyance to kill off a merc instead of waiting for him to go by/knocking him out.

Maybe have a game mode where, if the mercs are killed, all the objectives lock for 20 seconds and the place the merc died shows up on the other merc's radar. It'd be kind of like the lasers in the regular game, and the way to disable this move would be to either A) Be patient. It's a stealth game, or B) Grab the merc and knock him out.

This seems a bit unbalanced though, although an easy way to balance it would be to make it so the objectives are locked for 10 seconds, and the radar stays on for 20. That makes killing more of an option, but still with a major downside, especially in the presence of better alternatives.

I don't see why the spy should be punished for his actions, it would undermine giving the spy his abilities in the first place.

Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on January 02, 2010, 01:51:41 PM
I don't see why the spy should be punished for his actions, it would undermine giving the spy his abilities in the first place.

Agreed.

The spies actions should punish the mercs, and vice versa. In a balanced manner, of course.

It would be so that the spy has the option of breaking the Merc's neck and losing precious stealth, or the option of waiting/knocking the merc out and keeping the stealth(the first option does better at this then the second one, seeing as how the knocked out merc would be alerted to your presence).

Quote from: VenomousNinja on January 02, 2010, 09:28:27 PM
It would be so that the spy has the option of breaking the Merc's neck and losing precious stealth, or the option of waiting/knocking the merc out and keeping the stealth(the first option does better at this then the second one, seeing as how the knocked out merc would be alerted to your presence).

Meh. The mercs punishment for being grabbed should be balanced between the two, imo.
Eg. the merc gets:
- Necked: 15second respawn time, full eq.
- KO'd: 5 second "revival or whatever" time and no eq refill.

Perhaps adding a score system like in the SC singleplayer missions. Where successfull stealth actions award points and aggressive actions add negative point. Depending on the mission style (hack or break in and extract) the outcome will be "defenite" at the end of the round.

This allows players who haven't screwed up being stealthy to have room for aggro if neccessary but going all aggro means they will lose.

I don't think that tweaking KO time and respawn time will effect any of the players play style thus a scoring system will have a better impact.

Quote from: Wh1tE_Dw4rF on January 02, 2010, 11:20:12 PM
I don't think that tweaking KO time and respawn time will effect any of the players play style thus a scoring system will have a better impact.

I think you are wrong on that one.

Scores for Spies is an original idea. Please start a new thread about the rules for the scoring.

Yea, I like the point system idea, care to work it out?

I am not quite sure if this has been addressed but will the spies have the armband computer-gadget thing like they had in SCDA?  I know PS is trying to stay true to CT, but I was unsure if any thought has been given to resurrecting some elements from SCDA.

Quote from: Fatality314 on January 03, 2010, 05:39:07 AM
I am not quite sure if this has been addressed but will the spies have the armband computer-gadget thing like they had in SCDA?  I know PS is trying to stay true to CT, but I was unsure if any thought has been given to resurrecting some elements from SCDA.

If there is, it will be in an alternate gametype.

I see. Besides story and deathmatch, how many gametypes are currently in the works?

Quote from: Fatality314 on January 03, 2010, 06:00:42 AM
I see. Besides story and deathmatch, how many gametypes are currently in the works?

None, but the framework is in place to create whatever gametype we want.

Since this is a spy thread , i can advise a new move for spies . The ability to put legz up when they are holding some / board which has nothing blocking their legs. (could be the same button as spies button 'to wall near normal wall' but in hanging mode it would pull their legs up) . Ofcourse you wouldn't be able to climb up in that position or draw gun but you will be able to drop down.

So instead of looking like this
o---------                     o-----------------
|   he should look like this |_
/\

So you could actually use stuff to hide like that instead of just being a large hunk of hanging meat waiting to get shot.

The closer his legs will touch the the roof the harder it will be to find the spy , would be very neat move for camo suit.

Becides the move will be more 'project stealth' like , since it would fit in great in the game  ;D.

That's a standard move  ???

Quote from: frvge on January 05, 2010, 08:01:08 PM
That's a standard move  ???

No it wasn't. What he means is:
The spy should be able to curl his legs up, under the ceiling (assuming you're hangin from it).
I'll put up a drawing in a sec.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg63.imageshack.us%2Fimg63%2F3660%2Fspycurlingwhenhanging.png&hash=6ea5e30de41919b3c6e419f6a2d1251a1b310ad1)

A picture's worth a thousand words. At least, a thousand words that don't confuse you.

Quote from: Savior20061 on January 05, 2010, 10:06:22 PM
A picture's worth a thousand words. At least, a thousand words that don't confuse you.

Haha, yes.

Thought you meant going up with your feet on a pipe.

Quote from: Random Person on January 05, 2010, 10:14:07 PM

Quote from: Savior20061 on January 05, 2010, 10:06:22 PM
A picture's worth a thousand words. At least, a thousand words that don't confuse you.

Haha, yes.

why arent you a concept artist on this team , i mean , this is the kinda of drawings they use in story boards for movies and such :P.

Quote from: AgentX_003 on January 05, 2010, 11:00:47 PM

Quote from: Random Person on January 05, 2010, 10:14:07 PM

Quote from: Savior20061 on January 05, 2010, 10:06:22 PM
A picture's worth a thousand words. At least, a thousand words that don't confuse you.

Haha, yes.

why arent you a concept artist on this team , i mean , this is the kinda of drawings they use in story boards for movies and such :P.

I'm not very good with proportions + perspective.
That's why. Also I can't colour/ shade well. All I could possibly do is do drawings like that to show ideas and whatnot, but it's not very much to build on.

I have to say I like the drawings. Maybe you can team up with daybreak to produce something cool? A Spy vs Merc cartoon?

Yeah , that is what i ment .

But i guess that would be pretty hard to implement due to a lot of coding and animations ?

Nice drawing by the way . I was just lazy to draw anything so i tried to explain it with standard forum punctuation :D .

To make this game more fun you don't need to simplfy it or make it extraordinary tactical by adding tons of stuff .

Add more moves , people will find ways to use them.

The coding would be done pretty quickly. Animations is a different story ;) We'll be focusing on the Merc's first person anims around the end of February, unless we can find a first-person animator sooner.

Sorry but i doubt that . You would need the legs

1) To not stick into the texture.
2) For it to understand where it can be done and where it cannot be done .
3) Just sticking it on every object would be horribly long , so you would need to automaticly implement it into the editor somehow , like grabing the ledge.

1: adaptive animation, like foot placement. Dunno if it works on vertical sides, but else we can assume the side is vertical
2: tracing, like ledge climbing
3: see 2.

Quote from: WK on December 30, 2009, 12:15:28 PMShouldn't the spy get a penalty for even getting in contact with a merc? The spy aint very stealty if he gets into cqb, is he?
The whole point should be for the spys to stay out of sight. Not just kill everybody to get a few more secs to complete an objective.
Its sure as hell shouldn't give the spies an advantage for killing a merc. If anything they should lose some of theyre ammo doing so.

Just because its possible to takedown a merc shouldn't mean you HAVE to. Only if theres only one way out.
Thought that was why people liked the first Splinter Cells and hated Conviction (Becaues of all the killing).

Merc main objective: Protect objective and seek out the spies.
Spy main objective: Destroy/get objective and stay out of sight.

Thats what I was hopping when I saw Project Stealth. Not Project Kill Stealthy ;)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a game where there's no conflict between players isn't very fun. If it were, you would've seen a lot more people play disk hunt in CT. The only reason you don't see more spy victories via elimination in CT is the plethora of bugs that fuck them over...funny punches, bad jump hitboxes, and then there's partner healing to go with that all.

Designing maps and gameplay so that the spies can win without ever encountering a merc would be friggin boring. Being stealthy doesn't mean you have to be a gay pacifist.

Well said spekkio , for the game to be fun we need the action and drama also  ;D

Quote from: Spekkio on January 06, 2010, 02:31:53 AM

Quote from: WK on December 30, 2009, 12:15:28 PM
Spies that can drag merc around forever and mercs losing ammo when they die... Doesnt sound very fun.
Thought the game was about stealth (From the spy side).
Shouldn't the spy get a penalty for even getting in contact with a merc? The spy aint very stealty if he gets into cqb, is he?
The whole point should be for the spys to stay out of sight. Not just kill everybody to get a few more secs to complete an objective.
Its sure as hell shouldn't give the spies an advantage for killing a merc. If anything they should lose some of theyre ammo doing so.

Just because its possible to takedown a merc shouldn't mean you HAVE to. Only if theres only one way out.
Thought that was why people liked the first Splinter Cells and hated Conviction (Becaues of all the killing).

Merc main objective: Protect objective and seek out the spies.
Spy main objective: Destroy/get objective and stay out of sight.

Thats what I was hopping when I saw Project Stealth. Not Project Kill Stealthy ;)

I know my voice might not be worth much as a new user. But it seems like this is going in the wrong direction... The direction of Conviction action!
But looking forward to see what you'll come up with.

Edit - And sorry for my bad english ;)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a game where there's no conflict between players isn't very fun. If it were, you would've seen a lot more people play disk hunt in CT. The only reason you don't see more spy victories via elimination in CT is the plethora of bugs that fuck them over...funny punches, bad jump hitboxes, and then there's partner healing to go with that all.

Designing maps and gameplay so that the spies can win without ever encountering a merc would be friggin boring. Being stealthy doesn't mean you have to be a gay pacifist.

Agreed. As much as I'd rather avoid the mercs than fight them, there has to be action.

Quote from: frvge on January 03, 2010, 12:54:19 AM
Scores for Spies is an original idea. Please start a new thread about the rules for the scoring.

I've been giving it a few thoughts and it's somewhat difficult to come up with a solid score system based on the gadgets that are likely implemented.

For instance; mercs get bonus points for killing a spy without making a mess ( i.e. killing him by poison trap instead of remote mine or even bonus points for a clean kill by a shot trough the head). Every objective untouched (also including no disk stolen from case of instance).

Where as spies would gain bonus points for disabling a mine silently, going trough lazers without deactivating them (forward roll trough) or plain finishing the round with less then X amounts of passive detections trough map's security.


This also means for spies that they won't get full points for going aggro but ofcourse the scoring should be balanced out so that both type of gameplays have a somewhat fair win rating. (stealthplay higher as that should be encouraged) This would mean that good aggro spies have a fair change at winning but neither win instantly due to the score system at the end.

But the best of all. It will keep people's head in the match since the scores are not final untill the round ends. Which from what I can remember spies gave up after they got killed a few times or when mercs were overwhelmed.