If a ranked mode is being made, another interesting category in the rankings could be a 'challenge' section. This would be based upon how many points you have gained from completing challenges. Completing a challenge could give the player a set number of points, which would vary on the difficulty of the challenge. Every time the player completes a challenge, their ranking would increase. These challenges could be completed more than once, allowing the rankings to increase forever. Challenges such as 'complete a round without losing any lives', 'complete all the objectives by yourself', 'disable all defences (hackable cameras etc)' and 'remain undetected' would add replay value to the game, and give players something more to aim for (which may also motivate players into trying different play styles).
Quote from: List of Challenges
Spy Challenges
Artistic (Roll through 100 laser defences)
Betrayal (Ledge grab a mercenary, and throw him onto his team-mate)
Brute Force (Complete a total of 100 objectives)
Commando (Neutralise 25 mercenaries)
Disgrace (Kill a mercenary with his own Mine)
Electrified (Shoot 200 mercenaries with the Sticky Shocker)
Hangman (Perform 25 inverted neck breaks)
Heart Breaker (Detect 25 mercenaries with the Heartbeat Sensor)
Manipulation (Plant 50 Alarm Snares)
Ninja (Remain undetected throughout the match)
Panther (Neutralise a mercenary from a Walljump)
Saviour (Grab a mercenary who has pinned down your team-mate)
Sedatation (Gas two mercanaries with one Sticky Camera)
Snap, Crackle & Pop (Perform 50 neck breaks)
Stalker (Hack 5 mercenary voice-communications)
Strike! (Strike attack a crouching mercenary)
Team Player (Perform 50 co-op interactions)
Technician (Disable all defences - hackable cameras, mines etc)
Till Death Do Us Part (Choke a mercenary to death 5 times)
Vertigo (Perform 25 ledge grabs)
Mercenary Challenges
Beserk (Kill 25 spies with the Beserker move)
Boom, Headshot! (Kill 50 spies with a headshot)
Charge! (Charge down 25 spies)
Double Nade (Kill two spies with one Grenade)
Hero (Kill a spy who has your team-mate in a choke-hold)
Humiliation (Kill 25 spies with the Finisher move)
I See Red... (Detect 25 spies with the Laser)
Laserdeath (Kill 50 spies with the Laser Mine)
Multi-Kill (Kill two spies with one Bullet)
Poison (Kill 50 spies with the Poison Mine)
Proxify (Kill 50 spies with the Proxy Mine)
Resourceful (Refill the supplies of 25 team-mates with the Backpack)
Spy! (Track 25 spies with the Spy Trap)
Turbulence (Detect 100 spies with the Motion Tracking visor)
Global Challenges
Baby Steps (Win 25 rounds)
Blur (Complete a match within 3 minutes)
Godlike (Stay alive throughout a match)
Medic (Heal 50 team-mates)
Unstoppable (Win 2 rounds in a row)
Note: Each progressive challenge can be beaten again, just multiply the number by two. For example, the 'Medic' challenge can be beaten again after healing 100 team-mates.
My opinion is that achievements/ranks distract from pure gameplay and are an artificial way to lengthen the life of the game, while the latter should be standard by means of good gameplay design.
Quote from: frvge on March 03, 2010, 02:04:54 PM
My opinion is that achievements/ranks distract from pure gameplay and are an artificial way to lengthen the life of the game, while the latter should be standard by means of good gameplay design.
From what I read, it sounded more like say... The Medals in Halo.
That seems like a pretty good idea. Kind of a stat tracking element within the game for more than Wins Vs Loses. While things such as an actual leaderboard Rank can make a needless reason for people to try and play. Simple little extras for doing a specific "Thing", such as:
-Win in X Amount of time
-Win Without Losing a Life
-Win Without Hacking X
A bunch of little things that will accumulate at the end to make even the losers of the match feel like they did something. Merc's having FPS equivalents like:
-Headshot a Spy
-Blow up Two Spies with one Grenade/Mine
-Kill Two Spies within X amount of seconds of eachother (Shouting out DOUBLE KILL ;) (Not Really))
Again, Little things. Some easy, some hard. Everyone likes a virtual assessment of what they've done. Whether win or lose it's nice to see you got SOMETHING, and each of your games isn't just the same thing over and over again. Doesn't mean that you have to get anything Legit for it (Rank), but a notification or "Achievement Collection" within your profile would be more fun to look at than just your Kill to Death Ration, Or Win Vs Loses... Or how many games you've played.
Quote from: frvge on March 03, 2010, 02:04:54 PM
My opinion is that achievements/ranks distract from pure gameplay and are an artificial way to lengthen the life of the game, while the latter should be standard by means of good gameplay design.
You should make gadgets unlockable.
1 unlocked per 100 hours played.
Causes idling servers. Other stuff causes achievement servers, like in TF2.
Statistics are fine, as long as there's no actual reward.
Quote from: frvge on March 03, 2010, 04:45:43 PM
Causes idling servers. Other stuff causes achievement servers, like in TF2.
Statistics are fine, as long as there's no actual reward.
See and that's what I believe Ston3 was talking about. At least in my rendition of it. Medals like in Halo (Though some could bash for using that as an example). There is no PLUS to getting any. Double Kill just gives you a visual representation of something you did in that Match.
Same could be done with PS but obviously with different "Medals".
Just gives the player the illusion that they did more than they did, and people who lost something they can talk about other than: "Well... We'll get you next game..."
Quote from: frvge on March 03, 2010, 04:45:43 PM
Causes idling servers. Other stuff causes achievement servers, like in TF2.
Statistics are fine, as long as there's no actual reward.
Mang, for some people, stats
are the reward. Like fast turbo or whatever his name was.
Just make a lobby system that doesn't always tell people the ping of servers they're joining so I can troll people by hosting and lagging people to death, wouldja? Cooool. Assuming the game's gonna keep track of wins/losses, that is.
I remember that we discussed stats and stuff a long time ago. Don't remember the verdict if there was one, but a stat tracking system would be fine for me.
Given that you guys are a small team and stressed for time, I'd prefer that you spend yourself on something other than a benign reward system. The only people who care about that stuff are silly 12 year olds anyway.
Stats would be cool and probably not very difficult to program. Beyond that, a reward system is one of the last things that you could throw in there.
QuoteIf a ranked mode is being made,
Rank is silly in most games as it's artificial. The only way to have a true ranking system is to include a robust auto-match function, which would probably take a lot of man hours to complete and would fall apart due to the small and international nature of the game's initial player base.
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 03, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
I remember that we discussed stats and stuff a long time ago. Don't remember the verdict if there was one, but a stat tracking system would be fine for me.
Why do you people always kill discussions like that, who cares, time has passed, new people have joined, maybe the view on it changed. Let it evolve and just post a link to the old topic asking if people agree with the verdict and otherwise why not.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 03, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
Given that you guys are a small team and stressed for time, I'd prefer that you spend yourself on something other than a benign reward system. The only people who care about that stuff are silly 12 year olds anyway.
Stats would be cool and probably not very difficult to program. Beyond that, a reward system is one of the last things that you could throw in there.
QuoteIf a ranked mode is being made,
Rank is silly in most games as it's artificial. The only way to have a true ranking system is to include a robust auto-match function, which would probably take a lot of man hours to complete and would fall apart due to the small and international nature of the game's initial player base.
well sir I wouldn't say the player base is gunna be small because once this becomes full steam ahead then there will be more then just your average 200 players that you may have saw in chaos theory, Look at how many people are watching this mod / have signed up on the forums , the numbers don't lie and aside from that the 500 + on mah xfire list are all waiting on this mod..so guaranteed there will be no shortage of players.
...and we're also not a mod anymore.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 03, 2010, 12:08:01 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 03, 2010, 02:44:18 AM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 01, 2010, 03:21:33 PM
I actually want more objective types other than disk, explosive and hacking... I'm open to suggestions.
Hmm...I cannot think of any more good objective types other than these three. However, you could possibly incorporate a teamwork objective. Obviously teamwork is needed in all objectives such as distraction, necking, coop locations to reach objectives, etc. But there could be potential in having one spy hack one of the panels (one that looks like the steam pressure, electrical, and glass ceiling in clubhouse) on one side of the map which enables new computer/disk/bomb objectives for about 5 seconds. Then, the other spy at a different location could be able to initiate that objective for that short span of time. If it is hacked, then it can continue to be hacked until either stopped by the merc or completed. When there is an interruption (or the objective was not attempted in the time span), then the panel must be re-hacked before it can become available again. This way, the spies can have team work tactics when they are far away as well. I don't really know if it could work or be pulled off, but it could be used to add new possibilities.
Never thought about that, it would actually be pretty cool if one teammate has to hack an objective to say stop a ventilator from spinning in a vent so you can get to the next objective, security system will kick in and only give you 5 seconds to walk through it.
Yeah this thought of being able to temporarily bug/jam a fan to enter a new objective like you mentioned is one thing I had in mind. Another similar idea would be the hack could temporarily open a secret passage/trap door such as a library bookshelf to an office with a computer or safe with a disk in it. There are many creative routes that can be taken with this option.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 03, 2010, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 03, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
I remember that we discussed stats and stuff a long time ago. Don't remember the verdict if there was one, but a stat tracking system would be fine for me.
Why do you people always kill discussions like that, who cares, time has passed, new people have joined, maybe the view on it changed. Let it evolve and just post a link to the old topic asking if people agree with the verdict and otherwise why not.
On the contrary, I provided my opinion which is as good of an action as any for continuing a discussion. I also hate it when people do that. I was only saying I don't remember what people thought.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 03, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
Given that you guys are a small team and stressed for time, I'd prefer that you spend yourself on something other than a benign reward system. The only people who care about that stuff are silly 12 year olds anyway.
Stats would be cool and probably not very difficult to program. Beyond that, a reward system is one of the last things that you could throw in there.
The idea of a "Rewards" system (If meant to include the "Medals-like" idea and not just Rocket's deal) is obviously a afterthought. Not something Hugely important to the point of, "FINISH THIS INSTEAD OF THE SPY'S RUNNING ANIMATION!!!". Just something to link into the Stat tracking.
I know I logged into Bungie.Net more times that I probably went onto Halo. It's fun to see all the little Icons representing special things you did. Even if they mean nothing. A little "Medal" for PS for Headshotting a Spy when he's got my partners Neck would just be fun to see.
Again, Bungie isn't the only example of these types of things, but I believe they did it the best So far. So I'll keep using them as an example.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 03, 2010, 10:42:35 PM
QuoteIf a ranked mode is being made,
Rank is silly in most games as it's artificial. The only way to have a true ranking system is to include a robust auto-match function, which would probably take a lot of man hours to complete and would fall apart due to the small and international nature of the game's initial player base.
The good part I see about rank is the fact that you get to see just what you may be getting into. Getting into your first game and playing against someone who has been playing since it came out is kind of a sucker punch. Leaves a bad first impression as you get your ass handed to you.
Something simple like it recording the amount of hours you play, or your game count could make it even out a little bit. In the end though, everything can be hacked, cracked, and/or abused... So it's not like you can guarantee 100% Legit-ness when it comes to Ranking no matter how it's done.
Quote
The good part I see about rank is the fact that you get to see just what you may be getting into. Getting into your first game and playing against someone who has been playing since it came out is kind of a sucker punch. Leaves a bad first impression as you get your ass handed to you.
Actually, if you have any choice at all about the caliber of your opponent, the ranking system is already invalid. Like I said, you need to create a robust automatch system for rank to have any sort of validity at all.
Are you guys forgetting already all the people who started ranked servers and auto-kicked anyone who beat them? The only way you could reliably get ranked games was against people on your xfire list, and at that point why bother?
QuoteYeah this thought of being able to temporarily bug/jam a fan to enter a new objective like you mentioned is one thing I had in mind. Another similar idea would be the hack could temporarily open a secret passage/trap door such as a library bookshelf to an office with a computer or safe with a disk in it. There are many creative routes that can be taken with this option.
Okay, let's imagine for a second that there are two human beings playing on the other team, and these two human beings happen to have a brain...and when you start hacking or whatever into an objective they know requires two people, those two humans with brains are going to know exactly where you are...then they're going to go there and shoot you...and since you don't have the element of surprise on your side, you're pretty much fucked.
If the game is 2v2, 2-person objectives aren't going to work out.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 04, 2010, 03:28:41 AM
Actually, if you have any choice at all about the caliber of your opponent, the ranking system is already invalid. Like I said, you need to create a robust automatch system for rank to have any sort of validity at all.
Are you guys forgetting already all the people who started ranked servers and auto-kicked anyone who beat them? The only way you could reliably get ranked games was against people on your xfire list, and at that point why bother?
Automatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.
Situation:I'm Mr. Newbie that hasn't played one game yet.
I auto join a game, to which this game doesn't have automatch so it just finds the first game it can find.
The game gets started up pretty fast without much being said.
Fumbling with controls I've never used I precede to get my ass handed to me round after round.
I get barraged by insults by my partner for having no skills.
Could I quit and find a new game? Yes.
Will I end up in a game with a better set of people? Perhaps
Will I end up in the same game because it was the first one that happen to have an open spot again? Perhaps
End SituationEven the word "Experienced" after their name, or color coded names depending on Win/Loss Ratio. Who cares how it is figured out. The rank doesn't have to be because of "Ranked" games, but just so you have an indication that you are on the same level as the people you are fighting.
At the start of this games life, yes, everyone is going to be crap. A year or two down the road if this game is packed with people; not everyone is going to be at the same level of skill... Thus "Rank" would be helpful. Or mandatory "Boot Camp" area much like Halo... Though that was implemented with the rank too.. Hrmm...
Quote from: Cronky on March 04, 2010, 07:03:06 AM
Automatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.
But what about the proud CT tradition of having like a billion smurf accounts?
That kind of got brought up in my before posts.
There is always a way around the ranking system of any game. I'm not saying 100% of people will follow suit, but if incentives are made for those who stick with the same. (Such as the stat tracking with the "Medals" as re-imaged by me from Ston3's Post)
Unless there is some unimaginably big ranking/AutoMatching thing such as Spekkio said, then it's pretty much running on the Honor System.
The idea of this little Rank that is just filled in with Data they are already tracking. Re-purposing just slightly to give the illusion of fair game.
Proud traditions take more than medals to be forgotten.
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 04, 2010, 01:06:26 AM
On the contrary, I provided my opinion which is as good of an action as any for continuing a discussion. I also hate it when people do that. I was only saying I don't remember what people thought.
I just had to say it, maybe my interpretation was a bit wrong though, sorry.
Quote from: Cronky on March 04, 2010, 02:04:56 AM
Something simple like it recording the amount of hours you play, or your game count could make it even out a little bit. In the end though, everything can be hacked, cracked, and/or abused... So it's not like you can guarantee 100% Legit-ness when it comes to Ranking no matter how it's done.
Hacked, cracked AND abused? Please elaborate... We are already taking a lot of measurements against hacking of any kind.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 04, 2010, 08:23:45 AM
Proud traditions take more than medals to be forgotten.
Again, 100% commitment isn't expected. Incentives for actually playing on one profile/account would be an attempt to keep the "Traditions" to a low. Medals just being... Something cause I needed an example. You put up the idea of Rewards which is but another reason. Who would want to wait 100 hours for another "Prize" (Another being the same prize you have on your first account)? It brings up the problem of Idle Servers like Frvge said though.
@Lennard
No matter how much you put into Anti-Hacking regimens you can never get a game that will be Hack-Proof. It's like saying that there is an effective Anti-Pirating technique. Yes there are some good ones in theory, but in the end... If it can be built, it can be destroyed and rebuilt slightly differently.
I never said that there should be a reward for completing such challenges (besides gaining points, but that's just to distinguish rankings), but nevertheless, I think that it would give people something to aim for whilst playing the game besides just beating the other team. I believe that it could only add to the experience :).
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 04, 2010, 04:38:20 PM
I never said that there should be a reward for completing such challenges (besides gaining points, but that's just to distinguish rankings), but nevertheless, I think that it would give people something to aim for whilst playing the game besides just beating the other team. I believe that it could only add to the experience :).
That idea is a great one, but Frvge brought up the idea of Achievement Servers much like other games. People just playing for the sake of points, and not actually playing the game.
What I took from your post, while keeping away from the touchy server problem is that the Challenges should just be along the same lines as Halo's Medals. I've thought up quite a bit of them (As anyone who thinks about it for a second could). While it wouldn't GIVE you anything except another stat to track; it would be a motivation for some to pick up different styles of gameplay.
Rocket's idea was to put stuff like I assume TF2 has. Where you get extra little things randomly when you play (But perhaps at certain intervals of time). Again, the Idle servers come up... So either it would have to be like TF2's Hats, or the things you got would have to be minimally different.
All three ways could be implemented and it would actually be fun as hell. No one is a bad idea, just if you give Something big that ends in a rank or reward, it is to be assumed that people will try to "Cheat" to get those. You give no real reward, and no one is really going to care.
---------------
A ranking (Not leaderboard style, but just experience) should be implemented though. Base it off Win/Lose ratio or something. Varying the factor by making it not start counting till you hit 20 games or something. Your first 20 games aren't FREE games, they just don't change your "Rank" till you get to that point.
(A person who wins their very first game would have a crazy ratio to Rank score. So that's what the 20 games are for. You are Newbie till 20 games in... then it gets calculated into whatever it could be)
Since an AutoMatch option would supposedly take a lot of time, it'd just give you a little heads up into what you were about to go against.
The downside being that you don't exactly KNOW what your opponent Won or Lost against. If they lost 20 times to really good people then it wouldn't say much about their Skills against someone New.
Also on top of that, I understand what Spekkio said about having, "A Decision on who you fight ruins ranks". Since if you only look for people who have Lost a lot to try and raise your ratio... then you aren't being fair... unless an Automatch was Made, or a "Games Played" kind of barrier was made.
-----------------------------------------
Or a second thought is different Lobbies. Not "Free/Ranked", but rather more "Casual/Pro". People who actually want to play the game seriously would go to Pro. Those who want to dick around would go to Casual. The thought is that each holds your ranking regardless of lobby.
--------------------------------
Those are just Ideas, by far they are not perfect or well thought out.
----------------------------------------------------------
Rocket brought up the good point of making "Dummy" accounts. While there is options to foil that plan, such as perhaps finding a way to somehow limit the amount of Accounts on a specific IP or something... I think that's the point of the first part of this long post.
Playing just for shits and gigs is alright until people start to abuse is. The answer is to make a incentive for actually sticking to your account instead of just playing on any.
Maybe the rewards in Rocket's Idea could be Skins for Spy and Merc. No affect to gameplay, but something you wouldn't want to wait around for again... Unless you're a person who doesn't actually care for what they play as.
Which brings the point up again that there is no way to guarantee 100% of people to follow any given plan. The more reasons you give to the people will ultimately keep that down to a low though (In Theory).
I want to decouple account and displayname, just like the forums. So messing around will be possible if you change your display name. I'll have to talk it over with Lennard first.
I think stats, medals, and skins are fine, but don't add any rewards that will have an impact on the gameplay. There should not be any advantages or disadvantages to anyone because it can destroy the fun. Also, I prefer to not have auto matching. I like to look at pings and game titles before joining. You have more control of who you are actually playing with, which makes it more fun and balanced. The only possible automatch system I can see working is having noob, meds, experienced, and pro sections where you decide which zone to join. But even with that, you cannot see the pings or who is in the games.
And a response to the actual topic: An easy fix to colored bars vs. numbers is to have colored numbers. :o
I don't know...
Having Phosphorus Grenades as a Reward might be kinda cool ;)
Greatest grenades on SvM ever!
**
Sneaking up on a merc only to see a grenade land next to you...
Split second of eye gouging fear as you go into shock knowing you can't escape death...
...Big Poof of Green smoke...
Sigh of relief as you put your game-face back on...
2nd Grenade...
TO BE CONTINUED!!!!
**
I'd love a competition to see who can figure out how to unlock phosphorous nades first. Make some super secret way to unlock them and we'll find it.
QuoteAutomatch would be nice, but at least an indication that this person isn't the same "Level" as you would be NICE(er) Also.
Yea, but in reality very few people adhere to the honor code.
My personal experience with CT is that I rarely played rank. On the few times that I did, I think I was merely a level 2 or 3...so I'd always get accused of being a smurf and kicked after a game, or just get kicked before the game because I was assumed to be a noob. Since it was too late for me to get games against anyone decent, my level was pretty much stuck at an artificially low level.
Rank isn't a good indicator of skill at all. There are too many people who smurf, too many people who pick on lower skilled opponents to rank up, and too many people who find loopholes to avoid losing points when they lose. All this adds up to inflated ranks for the losers who actually care, and deflated ranks for those who don't care enough to put up with all the frustration that attempting to play ranked games entails.
I don't recognize your sn, so I don't know if you actually tried to play ranked games extensively when PT/CT were relatively popular. It just didn't work.
You see, that is why I put the option out there of a rank regardless of a "Ranked Game".
Rather Casual/Pro or whatever names work nicer areas. You gain a... Level or Rank or Something for each game you play, but when people see this rank. You know what to expect.
Perhaps a very simple rank. Not like, "I'm the #1 PERSON IN THE WORLD!!!", rather just a cue that they have played 30 or so games.
Meaningless ranks other than the fact that they have done more than nothing.
Quote from: Cronky on March 04, 2010, 08:16:05 PM
Rocket's idea was to put stuff like I assume TF2 has. Where you get extra little things randomly when you play (But perhaps at certain intervals of time). Again, the Idle servers come up... So either it would have to be like TF2's Hats, or the things you got would have to be minimally different.
Hey hey hey, all the cool games these days make you unlock stuff. Making it take 800 hours before letting people have a full set of items for spy and merc is just taking shit to the next level.
ps this is so hard on one hand i want to tell you to stop calling me rocket but on the other i want to be elitist and refuse to tell anyone my name because y'know anyone who's anyone should know it already
so hard to choose :(
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 05, 2010, 08:00:16 AM
Hey hey hey, all the cool games these days make you unlock stuff. Making it take 800 hours before letting people have a full set of items for spy and merc is just taking shit to the next level.
ps this is so hard on one hand i want to tell you to stop calling me rocket but on the other i want to be elitist and refuse to tell anyone my name because y'know anyone who's anyone should know it already
so hard to choose :(
I'm not sure if I should be insulted... Or just not care!
So hard to choose :D
So since all I see is Rocket, and that other word you got before it just takes FAR TOO long for me to type.... I'll stick with it. The name is just SO Catchy!
As for the other part of your post. I'm also left wondering to what context you meant for it to be read in. Sarcasm? Disturbed? I can't quite tell with only ONE smiley in the wrong place.
Using TF2 as a widespread example of your idea was because.. It works, and most people have experience with it. I could use one of many other games, but this one explains my points the best while not losing people with Obscure-er titles.
In TF2, you by far don't have a lack of weapons even before it gives you new ones. Everyone still does their job just as well. ON the flip side of that coin though, it unlocks a different set of items for you in time to use that doesn't effect the class TOO much. Same as I saw with your idea.
Spies would have all their normal stush when you first start playing. Only "100 Hours" (Or as I see it... A placeholder for the words, "At one point...") later you could gain access to things such as... That DA style Wrist Hacker Deal (Updated Of Course), or Mercs could gain Phosphorus. It could give you a new way to play, but isn't a BASIC Requirement when starting.
Whether or not it would work like that or if you meant it like that is aside from the point. You made a valid idea that would make a fun experience and give incentive to use only one account without doing something DRASTIC that would take much more work.
I do not think unlockable equipment should be in the game because it is stupid and unfair. Stupid because people should not have to grind to be able to use the items they want, and unfair, because even if the unlocks are perfectly balanced with the items they replace, a choice is still better than no choice.
I do not think we will be able to create a system that will ensure people can get into games with others of their skill level. I am positive none of the ideas proposed in this thread will work.
I also do not think stat tracking should be included as it leads to people playing the game for their stats, rather than for the game itself.
My name is Noop-Ni, but calling me Noop would also be acceptable.
This post is too serious so here is a picture of two anime girls.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg96.imageshack.us%2Fimg96%2F7570%2F1264836616121.gif&hash=22d6b6dc775c3f7c86f23f650f958c8d965780c6)
QuoteStupid because people should not have to grind to be able to use the items they want,
I wish game developers would realize this with their single player modes as well. Like hey, I don't want to have to beat SF4 with every goddamn character to be able to play as Seth...that just makes me put the game on very easy and wastes 2 hours of my time.
Quote from: Cronky on March 04, 2010, 08:16:05 PM
What I took from your post, while keeping away from the touchy server problem is that the Challenges should just be along the same lines as Halo's Medals. I've thought up quite a bit of them (As anyone who thinks about it for a second could). While it wouldn't GIVE you anything except another stat to track; it would be a motivation for some to pick up different styles of gameplay.
That is essentialy the point I'm making. As for your point about casual/pro modes, I think there should just be one lobby for people to play in (in terms of rank anyway, but even then, there could be a server filter for country instead of different lobbies). This way, everybody can still have fun, but they can also gain rewards at the same time. This should NOT effect gameplay, as Noop mentioned, that's just boring, unbalanced and plain stupid. It works in games such as MW2 because you are rewarded with slight improvements to your guns, which doesn't really affect gameplay or balance. When we're talking about gadgets, different gadgets can create completely different gameplay situations, so having to unlock gadgets just could not work, it would alienate players from the full experience.
The type of rewards I am suggesting are more akin to earning a gold star in a school, they only serve as incentives and motivation :). As for idling servers, there's never going to be a foolproof way of deterring that, but to those who play legitimately, rewards offer further incentive to play the game, and in my opinion make the game more fun.
P.S: I have a new found hate for iPod Touch typing.
@Noop and Spekkio (To a much lesser extent STON3 also)
WEAPON REWARDS
------------------------------------
Unlocking different options for Weapons/Gadgets (Such as: Wrist Hacker vs Sticky Shocker Gun) is different then a character or Primary Weapon/Gadgets (Sticky Shocker Gun).
It's about pacing a Player's experience.
------------------------------------
Pacing Example
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Say you're playing Doom. You are given a pistol at the start and from there you gain weapon after weapon until at the end you are wielding a BFG with enough ammo to vaporize anything you happen to see (Or Will see).
You could cheat and get all the weapons at the start, but if you were purposefully given the weapons at the start then the Player wouldn't feel any progression; wouldn't understand the basics. Instead, having a false impression that the BFG is the only weapon you'd ever need. So why use others?
While this makes sense in a Single Player Shooter the same pacing can be compared, yet not connected to other Genres or Game Types.
------------------------------------
Actual Rewards Explanation via TF2
------------------------------------
On to TF2 again... Why their Rewards system works is that everyone starts at square One. Balanced weapon rewards are their pacing.
You start out with a Sniper Rifle with The Sniper. No need to fiddle with Menus or wonder how the mechanics of it all are going to work... You aim, you fire. Simple steps because beginners aren't going to instantly know everything right off the bat. No matter how much experience they have at similar games.
Later you can acquire the Huntsman, a Bow that plays differently than the Sniper Rifle, but ultimately keeps you doing the same thing. The amount of time between acquiring said weapon, and you starting is their "Pacing". Once you get it, you will know the menus, you will understand the objectives, you will know the classes, and finally... You know the pros and cons of what you first had.
The same can be done with Project Stealth, and how I saw your idea as a good one.
Not everyone is going to have played CT before this game, so not everyone is going to understand the dramatic difference between a "Sticky Shocker Gun" and a "Wrist Hacker" (If both were implemented). The choice of both from the start can lead to confusion, and an even steeper learning curve.
Thus Pacing could be implemented through the idea of your (Noop's) Reward system. By the time they get the Wrist Hacker, they will know all their strategies with the SS Gun. It's not as if SS gun makes you Unable to do Stealth or Aggro, or that the Wrist Hacker is better than the SS Gun. Just that you will understand the basics of the gameplay BEFORE given a choice you don't understand.
------------------------------------
Street Fighter 4
------------------------------------
Fighting games are kind of the exception to this progression rule.
While one could say that playing through the story mode with X amount of Characters for X amount of hours is your "Basic" training before you get new characters. It's not really the same. Since each character is unique, though some combos harder to master.
The use of this gameplay theory is just a ploy to make you play their whole game... Since if you could play as anyone from the Get Go... Who would play as any of their other characters? Hell, who would play the Single Player at all?
------------------------------------
Ending Side Note
------------------------------------
Everything I use as an Example is just that... an Example... when I'm thinking of it. Not set in stone. I don't mean to say, "The ONLY way this could work is if you made the Spy get a Wrist Hacker", but it's a fine item that is different, but doesn't really affect gameplay in a HUGE way. Again, it doesn't stop you from hacking objectives, breaking necks, or being Sneaky/Rambo... Instead is just another option with a balanced set of rules to vary your style of play (IF you decide to use it).
STAT TRACKING
------------------------------------
It's true some people will play for Stats alone. There is no way against that though. It's like how some people will only play Project Stealth for the Spy side of the game... caring not for Merc. Some even refusing to play the Merc side of gameplay. This idea is not meant for those people, but rather the ones who want some kind of longevity out of their experience.
I'm all for winning a game, or killing a Spy/Merc, but how long will that last? What's the point if I get NOTHING for it? Much like how CT has died out almost completely (Unless otherwise Set up to be played)... There's no reason to keep on playing. I've gotten my 3 years straight of playing Spy and Merc, it's just pure monotony now.
With Stat Tracking and the combined idea from STON3 and Noop people could play the game with the illusion of progress. By no means has it been mentioned that there should be a LEADERBOARD saying "X person is #1 at playing this game", but something you could judge yourself on is better than nothing.
Also, the people who are playing for Stats alone are still playing. Better to have a bigger community of players to pick from, rather then a smaller one. For fun and stability of the active people that is.
RANK AND AUTOMATCHING
------------------------------------
Rank/Automatch ideas are just there so that you could actually play the game against fair competition.
Hypothetical Situation: Me being new to the game (A while after Release) wont know all the hiding spots, what I'm doing, or what to look for. I don't want to have to endure 15 games against people that have been playing since Beta. Getting headshotted because I haven't full grasped the controls fluidly yet.
No matter how fun the game CAN be, if I have to storm the beaches of Normandy just to start playing... I'd probably find a new game to play instead.
Choice against your opponents works badly if you are the Better One weeding others out. On the flip side it is good because when you are the Lesser One trying to find others of the same Skill.. It makes sense.
IN CONCLUSION
------------------------------------
All of this combines into a Longer Lasting experience. Since after a year or two the game will be losing it's "New Game Smell", popular as it may be among the lack of competition... There has to be a reason to keep playing. Lest this turns into what CT is now. Admittedly there is no way to make this go on FOREVER... but depending on the options you can at least pass it off for a long time.
Look at Halo... Whether or not you like the Multiplayer there are a LOT of people still playing it. Doesn't seem like it will die off soon, partly because there is a lot of Player Feedback. Medals, Movies, Easy Level Creator, Pictures, Active Website, Achievements, Stats, the list goes on... This is all while the gameplay is fun itself too. While they are all, in reality, pointless; people's reactions aren't. The Community is alive, and caters to every type of person.
Limiting something just because, "It's Stupid", or because, "I don't like it" leaves it with a shallow experience.
Locking features because you don't think people will be able to understand them at first is a terrible idea. It's the same "players are stupid" line of thinking that gave us no lobby system/only 1 item slot/THE RED TERMINAL IS UNDER ATTACK in DA. Fuckin' insulting.
And y'know the whole forced grind just to play how you want to thing and the balance problems still exist too, so...
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 06, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
Locking features because you don't think people will be able to understand them at first is a terrible idea. It's the same "players are stupid" line of thinking that gave us no lobby system/only 1 item slot/THE RED TERMINAL IS UNDER ATTACK in DA. Fuckin' insulting.
And y'know the whole forced grind just to play how you want to thing and the balance problems still exist too, so...
Those features you just said are HUGELY game altering.
Yes, you CAN go overboard, but at no time did I say something along the lines of, "Hey... Play for 100 Hours and you can get a 2nd Gadget slot. It should be a PRIVILEGE to use more than 1". I believe it's the general consensus that the things DA did Badly wont be in PS. None of which have been mentioned here.
You keep mentioning Forced Grind too. As if something like Phosphorus Grenades or the Wrist Hacker are something you NEED to be able to play. All the gadgets that would be "Rewards" would be... Extra ones, or variations of ones you already have (In my vision of this idea. Also in my Vision they are gadgets you don't even KNOW about, but I can't continue on this without mentioning SOMETHING. Thus Wrist Hacker).
It really comes down to you not knowing how you'll play PS though... If it plays exactly like CT then you already know what you're going to do. Grab the same Gadgets you did then, and bust out the same tactics you did then. Holding back something doesn't Impede your play style since you've never played with these items, rather... At ANY time the Dev's could put something in that they made to vary gameplay up a little bit, and have it be something to look forward to.
Such as.. You have Sticky Cams.
TF2 Style you randomly get Network Cams. Now these Cams can be set up in a network that you AND your partner can look at, but they don't have the sleeping gas. Game Altering? Perhaps, but nothing MAJOR. You don't LOSE Sticky Cams, and you may not even use the Network ones.
Yes, it's possible to STILL go overboard. Balancing is always an Issue, whether or not everyone has access to a certain Gadget.
Such as... They could never make a Grenade that did something... Drastic (Cluster bomb explosion). Or make a new Gadget that the only way to beat it is to have said other gadget that needs to be unlocked, but slight Variations are fine.
Network Cams
Remote Controlled Mines (No sounds or Light, No EMF signatures (Or very little), but must be manually blown up)
Wrist Hacker
Timed Grenades (Ones you could set a certain length of time to. [1sec, 2sec, 3sec, etc])
Air Taser (Long Ranged, but easily avoided)
Things such as that could TECHNICALLY work if balanced a lot. Huge changes to gameplay? Not particularly, but enough to warrant it being a "difference". All the while it would give old players something new to play with when unlocked. Thus giving the game longevity, if only for the few games where you test the capabilities of said gadget.
Again, TF2 is a perfect example that I'm using to death. Knowing about the Huntsman and not having it didn't mean I felt lacking. Though when I got it, I got a new wave of curiosity on how it was used. Led me to game after game of testing it out, but in the end I went back to the Sniper Rifle.
Not that it was a bad weapon since I know/see people that can use it better than the Sniper Rifle. Just wasn't my cup of Tea. To which is the point I'm trying to Convey. Just because it's OUT there doesn't mean it's instantly useful. You don't base your tactics on things you don't have, so "How you play" wont be a huge problem.
And so if I want to use any of these new items I have to grind for them. Great. Why is this preferable to just having them available from the start?
(I can't help but notice you keep ignoring the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things unfair for new players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.)
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 06, 2010, 07:47:14 AM
And so if I want to use any of these new items I have to grind for them. Great. Why is this preferable to just having them available from the start?
(I can't help but notice you keep ignoring the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things unfair for new players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.)
Unfair to New Players
------------------------I've typed it many times... None of the Gadgets are Hugely Game Altering. Plus no one is missing out on the Essentials. I'm not saying that what should be unlockable for Merc's is something like the Shotgun or SMG. That Spies should be able to get an Optic Camo that goes through Static Defenses, or Chaff should be held back for this idea. Nothing about people having to work to get more Gadget Slots.
None of the Rewards/Gadgets I've mentioned give you a distinct advantage over ANYTHING. Some give you a difference in certain situations (As does every gadget), but are far from unfair to someone that doesn't have it (As is every gadget). Saying it's unfair because they don't KNOW about it is different, but them being new means they don't know everything anyway.
Stat Tracking and Rank could also be used... Hrmm... I don't think a New Player playing a New Player is going to see something drastically different than what they are using.
Why it's preferable
------------------------To keep the Game Fresh. To give the people playing a REASON to play more. Why does someone continue to play TF2? Why does someone Continue to play CoD:MW?
Couldn't be cause the game is fun regardless of extra stuff they have to wait for... No no no...
If you want the straight truth! It's because I don't want this game to get boring after 3 years (Which is giving a LOT of leeway time-wise) as CT obviously did. Instant gratification is expected, and is a mindset that most have. You see something; you want it. You want it; you get it.
God forbid they play the game to get the thing they want, you don't lose interest because it you don't get it right off the bat. It's much like Hype, the more you see of it... The more you'll like it when you get it.
Plus it's fair among ALL players. The glory if this TF2 example is... it's already been done, and outlook is good.
You're going to be FAR from Option-less when PS comes out. Gadgets Galore is what we can expect, and at the very least MOST of CT's will be there. Giving a reward for actually playing isn't bad. The reward being something you've never used isn't going to cramp your style you play with.
So there's Item A and Item B, right? They're pretty balanced with each other, right? Now, Guy 1 can choose between taking Item A or Item B. Guy 2 is forced to choose Item A.
Who's better off here?
If the gadgets do different things, they're going to be preferable in different situations. If they're not available to everyone without grinding for them, someone somewhere is going to get screwed because they haven't unlocked the item that would help them, while someone else who has will do fine. That is bullshit.
Can't you just keep track of how long you've played and congratulate yourself every time you hit a milestone? That way you can still feel good, and nobody has to suffer because you have a progression fetish. Wouldn't that be the best way?
You type as if you get to use ALL Gadgets ALL the time. Just because one person doesn't have an Item doesn't mean that they worse off than anyone else.
Person A has mines without the option of Remote Detonation.
Person B has mines with the option of Remote Detonation.
Do you really care about the subtly because of that slight Variation? Does Person A having the option mean they're going to use it? That having Manually Detonated Mines is anything different better than having the first 3 types.
That's even using a Reward that doesn't involve a new Gadget being made.
Person A has Normal Grenades and Phosphorus (To which Phosphorus is unlockable)
Person B has Normal Grenades and Mines
Does the fact that Person A has something Person B doesn't mean that Person B is any less Deadly? That Phosphorus is going to be your key to victory?
You only get to pick between a certain amount of Gadgets. Four if they are making PS like CT. You aren't at a fault because you didn't bring a certain thing into the game. Sure some are Preferable! Such as Mines, Grenades, Backpack, and a Gasmask, but then again... I don't mean to say that the Essentials were locked to begin with anyway, but with a lot of Balance Playtesting and a reward for actually playing.. It could actually be fun to get these new options.
Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.
Progression Fetish... You also assume I'd rather be kept away from the full potential of items that I could have.
I'm not thinking about myself in this, but the Game. Yes, having all the items would be GREAT, but what would make the game last longer? Progression.
What would I choose...
The game that plays just like CT and ends up just like CT. (How many people are online right now?)
Or
The game that plays like CT but gives a reason to continue playing other than self-aware Gratification. (Which may not work, but at least is an educated guess based on other games popularity)
Quote from: Cronky on March 06, 2010, 09:04:25 AM
Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.
uh huh
i'm going to be going away now
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 06, 2010, 09:25:49 AM
Quote from: Cronky on March 06, 2010, 09:04:25 AM
Using this site as an example... I have over 100+ Posts and have been signed on for more than 3 Days time... Does that make the board any less boring when no one is posting? No. Perhaps if I had a title or something for going past 100 posts I'd have at the very least a moment of excitement for getting that.
uh huh
i'm going to be going away now
That's an awful big Cop-Out of a response.
Have I walked away from this site because I don't get anything for posting other than Self Gratification? No.
Have I continued to post FULL knowing that all I may or may not get is a lackluster response? Yes.
Progression Fetish Theory Broken.
When you return a real response would be greatly appreciated. :)
EDIT:
Or to use a similar line as you did...
I can't help but notice you ignored the parts of my posts where I point out that unlockable items make things fair for all players. Why would that be, I wonder? Hmmmmm.EDIT2: Strike Through Of Childish Response.
Split the topic from the original one.
I'm with noop on this one...the player with a larger selection of gadgets is always at an advantage just because they have choice. If more gadgets are implemented, i say give them to everyone from the get-go.
What's the point in making another account? Just change your display name...
Dear Cronky,
You're a fucking moron with too much time on your hands.
QED
Love,
Spekkio :-*
Quote from: Cronky on March 06, 2010, 02:25:52 AM
@Noop and Spekkio (To a much lesser extent STON3 also)
WEAPON REWARDS
------------------------------------
Unlocking different options for Weapons/Gadgets (Such as: Wrist Hacker vs Sticky Shocker Gun) is different then a character or Primary Weapon/Gadgets (Sticky Shocker Gun).
It's about pacing a Player's experience.
------------------------------------
Pacing Example
------------------------------------
Say you're playing Doom. You are given a pistol at the start and from there you gain weapon after weapon until at the end you are wielding a BFG with enough ammo to vaporize anything you happen to see (Or Will see).
You could cheat and get all the weapons at the start, but if you were purposefully given the weapons at the start then the Player wouldn't feel any progression; wouldn't understand the basics. Instead, having a false impression that the BFG is the only weapon you'd ever need. So why use others?
While this makes sense in a Single Player Shooter the same pacing can be compared, yet not connected to other Genres or Game Types.
------------------------------------
Actual Rewards Explanation via TF2
------------------------------------
On to TF2 again... Why their Rewards system works is that everyone starts at square One. Balanced weapon rewards are their pacing.
You start out with a Sniper Rifle with The Sniper. No need to fiddle with Menus or wonder how the mechanics of it all are going to work... You aim, you fire. Simple steps because beginners aren't going to instantly know everything right off the bat. No matter how much experience they have at similar games.
Later you can acquire the Huntsman, a Bow that plays differently than the Sniper Rifle, but ultimately keeps you doing the same thing. The amount of time between acquiring said weapon, and you starting is their "Pacing". Once you get it, you will know the menus, you will understand the objectives, you will know the classes, and finally... You know the pros and cons of what you first had.
The same can be done with Project Stealth, and how I saw your idea as a good one.
Not everyone is going to have played CT before this game, so not everyone is going to understand the dramatic difference between a "Sticky Shocker Gun" and a "Wrist Hacker" (If both were implemented). The choice of both from the start can lead to confusion, and an even steeper learning curve.
Thus Pacing could be implemented through the idea of your (Noop's) Reward system. By the time they get the Wrist Hacker, they will know all their strategies with the SS Gun. It's not as if SS gun makes you Unable to do Stealth or Aggro, or that the Wrist Hacker is better than the SS Gun. Just that you will understand the basics of the gameplay BEFORE given a choice you don't understand.
------------------------------------
Street Fighter 4
------------------------------------
Fighting games are kind of the exception to this progression rule.
While one could say that playing through the story mode with X amount of Characters for X amount of hours is your "Basic" training before you get new characters. It's not really the same. Since each character is unique, though some combos harder to master.
The use of this gameplay theory is just a ploy to make you play their whole game... Since if you could play as anyone from the Get Go... Who would play as any of their other characters? Hell, who would play the Single Player at all?
------------------------------------
Ending Side Note
------------------------------------
Everything I use as an Example is just that... an Example... when I'm thinking of it. Not set in stone. I don't mean to say, "The ONLY way this could work is if you made the Spy get a Wrist Hacker", but it's a fine item that is different, but doesn't really affect gameplay in a HUGE way. Again, it doesn't stop you from hacking objectives, breaking necks, or being Sneaky/Rambo... Instead is just another option with a balanced set of rules to vary your style of play (IF you decide to use it).
STAT TRACKING
------------------------------------
It's true some people will play for Stats alone. There is no way against that though. It's like how some people will only play Project Stealth for the Spy side of the game... caring not for Merc. Some even refusing to play the Merc side of gameplay. This idea is not meant for those people, but rather the ones who want some kind of longevity out of their experience.
I'm all for winning a game, or killing a Spy/Merc, but how long will that last? What's the point if I get NOTHING for it? Much like how CT has died out almost completely (Unless otherwise Set up to be played)... There's no reason to keep on playing. I've gotten my 3 years straight of playing Spy and Merc, it's just pure monotony now.
With Stat Tracking and the combined idea from STON3 and Noop people could play the game with the illusion of progress. By no means has it been mentioned that there should be a LEADERBOARD saying "X person is #1 at playing this game", but something you could judge yourself on is better than nothing.
Also, the people who are playing for Stats alone are still playing. Better to have a bigger community of players to pick from, rather then a smaller one. For fun and stability of the active people that is.
RANK AND AUTOMATCHING
------------------------------------
Rank/Automatch ideas are just there so that you could actually play the game against fair competition.
Hypothetical Situation: Me being new to the game (A while after Release) wont know all the hiding spots, what I'm doing, or what to look for. I don't want to have to endure 15 games against people that have been playing since Beta. Getting headshotted because I haven't full grasped the controls fluidly yet.
No matter how fun the game CAN be, if I have to storm the beaches of Normandy just to start playing... I'd probably find a new game to play instead.
Choice against your opponents works badly if you are the Better One weeding others out. On the flip side it is good because when you are the Lesser One trying to find others of the same Skill.. It makes sense.
IN CONCLUSION
------------------------------------
All of this combines into a Longer Lasting experience. Since after a year or two the game will be losing it's "New Game Smell", popular as it may be among the lack of competition... There has to be a reason to keep playing. Lest this turns into what CT is now. Admittedly there is no way to make this go on FOREVER... but depending on the options you can at least pass it off for a long time.
Look at Halo... Whether or not you like the Multiplayer there are a LOT of people still playing it. Doesn't seem like it will die off soon, partly because there is a lot of Player Feedback. Medals, Movies, Easy Level Creator, Pictures, Active Website, Achievements, Stats, the list goes on... This is all while the gameplay is fun itself too. While they are all, in reality, pointless; people's reactions aren't. The Community is alive, and caters to every type of person.
Limiting something just because, "It's Stupid", or because, "I don't like it" leaves it with a shallow experience.
First off, how do you have so much time to write a huge essay every day? And second, the pacing idea is the worst idea I have ever heard in my life. Aside from that, statistics should be counted but not emphasized to the extent of other games. It should be more of a side note than a major aim. I do see your point in trying to make the game last longer with unlockables, though. However, I do not see this idea working. It would seem to scare people away rather than make them want to play more. The only way to mix it up that seems legitimate is to unlock new designs or get awards that have nothing to do with the effects of the actual gameplay abilities or options for gadgets. Along with that, there should be a certain amount of maps released when the game starts, and there should be a new wave being made so that there are regular intervals between releases. This way, people can play the old and new maps while still anticipating new ones. The method would keep the game alive much longer than just awarding new gadgets. Another thing would be to have tournaments and honors or recognitions for your accomplishments. And last but not least, of course, the word needs to be spread through advertising that this game actually exists because there are a lot of people out there who would like this game but don't even know about it yet. Just think of the Chaos Theory community alone. There are still plenty of people there that don't have any idea about this.
I think it's pretty unanimous that unlockable weapons/gadgets is a bad idea for Project Stealth, the equipment of both mercenaries and spies is highly specialised, the moment you take one item away, there is a major change in options for the player. In a game where complex tactics and teamwork is vital to your success, this is not the favourable option. To get back on topic, do you think that these challenges alone would be a good addition to the game? I have yet to see how they can provide anything but an improved gaming experience. Here's a couple of ideas, post your own and I'll add them to the first post :).
Spy Challenges
Artistic (Roll through 100 laser defences)
Betrayal (Ledge grab a mercenary, and throw him onto his team-mate)
Brute Force (Complete a total of 100 objectives)
Commando (Neutralise 25 mercenaries)
Disgrace (Kill a mercenary with his own Mine)
Electrified (Shoot 200 mercenaries with the Sticky Shocker)
Hangman (Perform 25 inverted neck breaks)
Heart Breaker (Detect 25 mercenaries with the Heartbeat Sensor)
Manipulation (Plant 50 Alarm Snares)
Ninja (Remain undetected throughout the match)
Panther (Neutralise a mercenary from a Walljump)
Saviour (Grab a mercenary who has pinned down your team-mate)
Sedatation (Gas two mercanaries with one Sticky Camera)
Snap, Crackle & Pop (Perform 50 neck breaks)
Stalker (Hack 5 mercenary voice-communications)
Strike! (Strike attack a crouching mercenary)
Team Player (Perform 50 co-op interactions)
Technician (Disable all defences - hackable cameras, mines etc)
Till Death Do Us Part (Choke a mercenary to death 5 times)
Vertigo (Perform 25 ledge grabs)
Mercenary Challenges
Beserk (Kill 25 spies with the Beserker move)
Boom, Headshot! (Kill 50 spies with a headshot)
Charge! (Charge down 25 spies)
Double Nade (Kill two spies with one Grenade)
Hero (Kill a spy who has your team-mate in a choke-hold)
Humiliation (Kill 25 spies with the Finisher move)
I See Red... (Detect 25 spies with the Laser)
Laserdeath (Kill 50 spies with the Laser Mine)
Multi-Kill (Kill two spies with one Bullet)
Poison (Kill 50 spies with the Poison Mine)
Proxify (Kill 50 spies with the Proxy Mine)
Resourceful (Refill the supplies of 25 team-mates with the Backpack)
Spy! (Track 25 spies with the Spy Trap)
Turbulence (Detect 100 spies with the Motion Tracking visor)
Global Challenges
Baby Steps (Win 25 rounds)
Blur (Complete a match within 3 minutes)
Godlike (Stay alive throughout a match)
Medic (Heal 50 team-mates)
Unstoppable (Win 2 rounds in a row)
Note: Each progressive challenge can be beaten again, just multiply the number by two. For example, the 'Medic' challenge can be beaten again after healing 100 team-mates.
Why is it that ALL the good responses happen while I'm asleep! Just too unfair...
@"People" Responses below
How I Make Long Posts Everyday
---------------------------------------
See this is a combination of a few things:
A.) Simple Ideas with large areas of explanation. I could pick any number of ways to explain my thinking. The more I use, the more you all will understand what I mean.
B.)I obviously like to give Examples. That fills up a nice portion. Was the Doom reference NEEDED to prove my point of theory? No, but now that you can see it you know what I'm talking about.
C.) I edit my posts A LOT and read them over MANY times. Maybe I'm not grammatically correct, but I can tell when a certain part of what I'm saying can be read wrong, or when I have a typo. That LOOOONG Post I edited around probably 10 times. Adding little pieces, and restructuring a few times. The Street Fighter part was actually near the top if you can believe that. Then I read it over and noticed that it didn't really pertain to the idea of that section of the post.
D.) I don't work on them Constantly. I open it up and think of ideas while I do other stuff. Don't hit POST till I get everything down.
Why I Make Long Posts
---------------------------------------
Each one of these Sections has so many reasons...
A.)This forum is weird in the amount of people that are close minded to ideas. Where some might go, "This could work IF...". Most of you go, "That wont work BECAUSE...". It's a very subtle line with groups mostly forming on the latter side. Someone has to be an opposition else we're going to lose potential.
B.)If you have an Idea... You should be able to defend it.
This place is great for people that want the exact same experience that another game gave them. While CT was Great! I know (and so do many of you) that without slight alterations it will end up exactly the same. How do I know? Look at all the SvM servers. There's just over how many people are on this site daily. Granted at PEAK TIMES it can reach up to the 100's. That is though, as Spekkio mentioned in another post... Not a lot.
C.)I like to give a clear message. Text has a bad habit of being misread. The longer you make it with a number of examples makes it easier to tell what the person is getting at.
D.)This forum isn't SUPER active.
I treat each post as if I'm doing One half of a conversation. Trying to hit all points while bringing up new ones to respond to. So when someone else gets on to the forum... BAM even if they didn't have an opinion before, they might have one now.
RedBull has one post (Welcome to the Forum). That one post is against my idea. Do I feel bad that he doesn't agree? No. Am I glad that I may have said something so outrageous that he decided he Wanted to voice his opinion? Yeah.
E.) I could split this Post into about 10 little posts, but that's just a shameless waste of space. If you care to read, then read. If not, don't bash the idea. You don't have a FULL understanding unless you read the entire thing. Much like that line, "Don't Judge a Book by It's Cover".
F.) Plain and simple, I would rather a majority of my posts be constructive. To bare my entire opinion, rather than just one or two sentences summing it up.
PERSONAL RESPONSES
---------------------------------------
@Spekkio
I expected more from you! Good response still cause you put a little humor in it, but baseless accusations isn't what I was thinking you were going to say.
@Redbull
I agree that getting weapons right off the bat is great! I never meant to say that, "HEY. This is the best way you could do what I'm saying". All I mean to say is that it's Different. That there is a way you could implement this type of idea that would make it work. Increasing Longevity of the gaming experience in the process.
Gadgets were really just an option here. Skins were mentioned before, Hats, etc. It's just that Gadgets would be more looked forward to. Something big enough to entice a want, but small enough to not ruin the game without having it.
(Again, if the Gadget rewards were just variations of the primary gadgets you already have)
@STON3
I'll have to disagree with the Bad Idea part. Everyone just stretches the idea to a point they don't want to see. That every gadget is JUST as useful as the next. That taking one thing away that you don't use could RUIN the experience for players that don't have it.
Again:
Remote Controlled Mines
Air Taser
Wrist Hacker
Phosphorus Grenades
Network Cams
None of these examples are Primary Gadgets. None of these give a huge advantage whether you have them or not. Never did I say that Flashbangs are locked, that anything that we've gotten used to in CT would be locked (Phosphorus being the joke Gadget because I like that grenade). Just Variations that are obviously balanced, and serve purely as another option to add to your arsenal.
Sure you may feel lacking right at the start of this games life because, "Hey... You had weapons and didn't bother to give them to me". On the flip side though, people who first join the game when it came out wont have a preconceived notion that they were SUPPOSED to have these at all. Possibly Enjoying the mechanic that actually play will lead them to getting something new.
As for the Challenges...
Great job! You got 99% of the ones I was thinking of... PLUS putting cool names to it.
Only one I don't think I saw was something along the lines of saving your partner when they are grabbed. Headshotting a spy who has grabbed your partner, or Grabbing a Merc that has pinned your partner. That would be fun and tough to unlock. That kind of thing.
Perhaps also one for straight up choking Spies/Mercs out. Not knocking them or or snapping their neck, but just held till death.
@Frvge
The idea of using another account was brought up because of Rank and whatnot. People use Dummy Accounts to make themselves able to play easy people. (I know you understand that, just wanted to clarify)
I understand now that putting a rank on a Person is a little conveluted and easy to mess up. Making it a notification on the server they are joining on the other hand is a good one. One lobby, but when people make a game they can tailor the description to show what kinds of people they want (Pro/Casual could work there).
@Curdly
Pacing isn't a bad idea... if implemented right.
It's the reasoning behind why you don't start MW2 Multiplayer with Every Gun.
TF2 with Every Item
The reasoning behind options
And
The Reason behind SOME unlockables.
Some games do go overboard (Such as DA did) and say that people CAN'T handle certain amounts of stuff. I'm not saying that they CAN'T handle it, but that they should get something for playing the game. A way to shake things up that isn't within the norm.
It's inevitable that there is going to be new stuff being put out. User-made maps, Tourneys, etc. aren't new. You type it as if CT never had those kinds of things though. This, much like STON3's Challenges, and a robust Stat Tracking system, are just ways to Add On Top of the already foreseeable future of PS. To make it last longer than what it's trying to replace.
Summary
---------------------------------------
I seem to be one of the only people that can at least grasp a reason why Gadget Rewards COULD work. Not that they will. Not that they will even be put in the game. Just an inkling of how it COULD work, not why it WONT.
Everyone against it brings up the same ideas. That Spy's and Merc's gadgets are UNIQUE in every way. That each Gadget is it's own entity that cannot be changed. One gadget missing, means gameplay fairness is GONE. That each gadget is for a Specific Situation, without the option to stifle that very specific situation, you are as good as dead.
You don't have access to all counters to all situations no matter what though. Flares are great on really dark levels, but if you don't bring them it doesn't mean you lose if the lights get shut off.
So what if Flares in this example didn't get unlocked till... 5 games in. Oh No! Spies beware because now that the Merc has flares, you can't hide in the dark. Oh wait... He traded Flares for his Mines... Well now we don't have to worry about random explosions.
Again I must mention that in my vision of this idea No PRIMARY Gadget is locked. Primary in my mind is All the gadgets that we have all come to love. (Aside from Phosphorus :D)
Variations COULD work though. The thought that everyone has the basics, but COULD get more for playing is a reason to play. Everyone starting off wont have these extra options, but to what extent will it change their game. Spies still must hack, steal, blow up stuff. Mercs still have to Kill the Spies. Giving progression as to how people will do that isn't unfair, because no one comes out as Top Dog if they have all the extras. Someone who has everything can still be beat by someone that has Nothing. Someone just starting wont have a bad experience because nothing rewarded is Game Breakingly Good.
Combined with Challenges from STON3 and Stat Tracking of some sort it could hit all bases of people. Be more widespread on it's appeal.
You have a point, but so much of the gameplay revolves around the use of different gadgets (no matter how effective they are), so I think that it's not a good idea to be forced to unlock them. As for your challenge ideas, I like them :D. I've updated the list.
Spy Challenges
Saviour (Grab a mercenary who has pinned down your team-mate)
Till Death Do Us Part (Choke a mercenary to death 5 times)
Mercenary Challenges
Hero (Kill a spy who has your team-mate in a choke-hold)
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 06, 2010, 09:44:53 PM
You have a point, but so much of the gameplay revolves around the use of different gadgets (no matter how effective they are), so I think that it's not a good idea to be forced to unlock them. As for your challenge ideas, I like them :D. I've updated the list.
Spy Challenges
Saviour (Grab a mercenary who has pinned down your team-mate)
Till Death Do Us Part (Choke a mercenary to death 5 times)
Mercenary Challenges
Hero (Kill a spy who has your team-mate in a choke-hold)
I get that it's not a perfect idea. I see the "problem" with some people having something, and some people not having something. It's not that I disagree completely. Just that I've tried to tailor the idea to that niche spot, while not completely altering gameplay or tactics.
Each Variation of a gadget I use as an example is akin to the weapons/etc in TF2, as that is my major example of this technique. A fun side option that in reality doesn't serve a MAJOR purpose aside from minor tactic change.
Remote Controlled Mines: While useful for a trap, it require that the Merc KNOWS you're there for it to kill. Of course things like setting them up near hack spots and whatnot comes up with that, but without indication of how close a spy is to one (It doesn't blow up in proximity or by laser) it's easily removable (Though perhaps it takes... 1 full second to actually remove it). It's not INVISIBLE, but perhaps harder to see (EMF being pretty useless at seeing it). As is with the difference in indicators for each type of mine already.
That's one example I've tried to think through as to have serve as a real "Reward". No one is at fault for NOT having it, it's not MORE useful than any other type of mine, but it's different enough to warrant someone being excited when they get it.
Challenge Names/Descriptions are Perfect! I'll shout out if I can think of more.
I meant RedBull is a smurf and I suggest him to abandon that one and change his normal username to RedBull. Or w/e, I'm not sober.
About the challenges...Most seem fine except the number needed to complete some of them may need to be altered to make them all balanced because some seem way easier and faster than others. The only way to get accurate and even numbers for each would be to play the game ahead of time to get an idea of one that is appropriate. And I am not sure there is a way to actually implement some of them. For instance, how would it be possible to play a full game undetected and the game would actually know you were undetected? Like I said, some numbers need modification and some would be hard to make possible but overall they seem decent. The only issue would be that some people would spend more time trying to unlock these than actually trying to win the game. So I don't know if it is worth it...it is really up to the devs. If they decide to use it, then we can give more ideas of challenges. If not, then we are wasting our time.
About the skins/costumes...If this idea goes through, it could work if used in the right way. The way it could backfire is if the new attire makes the spies and mercs look unrealistic or just plain cheesy in the process. They would need to look like something the spies and mercs would actually wear in the situation, not some joke hats or goofy clothes. Overall, spies would only wear dark clothes so the only real change you could make would be instead of the green eyes/glow stuff to have different colors for that part. For the mercs, the only real change could be the color of the glasses or maybe the headpiece, etc. Remember, this game is serious and somewhat scary (or at least it is suppose to be), so too many changes would ruin that aspect.
Speaking of scary, here is one side note. Do you have any sketches for a castle style map? It would be really cool to have spies enter into a castle through cracks or holes in the brick outside. The outside could have a gate and spooky dead trees with cool sounds. It could have torches similar to pyrocryptic with metal knight statues and elegant dining, tables, paintings, rugs, swords, armor, etc. It could turn out really cool.
A map like that is not planned.
Quote from: frvge on March 07, 2010, 03:39:18 AM
I meant RedBull is a smurf and I suggest him to abandon that one and change his normal username to RedBull. Or w/e, I'm not sober.
Who is he? Just outta interest.
Personally I'm in for BFBC2 like medals (can be re-earned, don't give advantages, track stats at the same time) and "Personal Best", not because it's a "hype" but because I noticed, while playing games, I enjoy it to be recognized for my actions.
Just finished playing Batman, which uses GFW Live for "Achievements" and I was suprised how I liked it that I earned achievements for having say a 20x combo. Note that I don't like achievements in PS, because you'll get achievement servers and people playing for achievements in games that should be serious, hence why subtle medals and a personal best (real-time or after you died?) would be a good combination.
Cronky has exceeded his word count.
BAN HIM!
Don't you tempt me to make a longer post!!!!
;D
My attention span can't last your posts ;)
I am cool with Achievements. I am not okay with unlockable gadgets and making this an experience game with level ups. My spy will not be a fucking elf that needs to level up. Everyone should have a fair chance to defend themselves with the given gadgets. The combination of use is up to them, but they should all be present. If you want unlockable things, lean towards skins.
Quote from: Westfall on March 08, 2010, 03:33:02 PM
I am cool with Achievements. I am not okay with unlockable gadgets and making this an experience game with level ups. My spy will not be a fucking elf that needs to level up. Everyone should have a fair chance to defend themselves with the given gadgets. The combination of use is up to them, but they should all be present. If you want unlockable things, lean towards skins.
See, I can still understand that. I have not once said that the idea of Gadget Rewards was a perfect idea. I'm just trying to find a way that it Could work. Whether for of pacing, or longevity of the game, the reason of how it could work is still not explained (Except by what I've been saying).
Skins could work, I just kinda assumed anything that DA did wasn't worth the time of day. Curdly also mentioned that the skins could be "Bad". Saying, in essence, that if they didn't take the same amount of time making the first spy suit as they did the second one, or just gave us VERY Minor tweaks to our existing one... It wouldn't be worth it.
An Idea needs to be accepted before it can be talked about, and talked about to be refined. STON3's Challenges are a good example of that. The point being that None of us are Devs. None of the ideas we talk about are SURE to be implemented into the final game, or even thought about. So I suggest people be more constructive with the, "How it Could"s, rather than the, "Why It Wont"s.
Remember that "Rewards" weren't my idea in the first place! Noop went and said something about it. I ran with it. Noop didn't keep with the idea, or tell what he really meant by his first post (Assuming he wasn't being sarcastic) like STON3 did. So I'm left being the only one defending how this idea Could work. With all of you saying why it Wont.
What you said about Experience and Level Ups seem kind of out there to me, unless you're talking about Ranks. I think the closest thing to what was said here about that is... Gaining a Level or Rank as to show that you are not a beginner at the game. The same kind of way that Halo has it's "Ranks". Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
(I know my long posts are REALLY long, but at least now I've put them into Sections so as you could read the parts that interest you ;))
Different skins could also end up leading to a "oh he has a different skin..he must be experienced"
why would I support something I don't agree with and attempt to find a way to implement it if I..don't..agree..with..it? If anything I will voice my displeasure in hope of the devs seeing why certain things just won't work with this type of game.
However, there could be some sort of mode you can have to implement this idea, but it seems more single player than multiplayer.
I understand that reasoning, and believe that the skin idea you mentioned is a perfect means to solve two problems I had. Rewards and Unfair Competition.
My reasoning behind being open to ideas and not instantly bashing one is the simple fact that it takes more work. I can disagree with 90% of what's going on here. Anytime the Dev's mention that they aren't Remaking Club House with Lakehouse, or saying that this isn't just a remake of CT SvM. It's easy to say something is bad and have legit reasoning behind it, but can you defend a new idea with the same amount of ease?
-----------------------------------------
Person A: I don't like the idea of Challenges/Achievements. They are an artificial way of lengthening the games life.
Person B: They don't affect gameplay at all. So why not?
Person A: If they serve no purpose, why take the time to make them at all?
------------------------------------------
SEE how easy that was?
This game is one of those special cases where the game isn't out, it's far from done, and is open to minor change.
Why would I want the exact same experience I had with CT if I could come up with a legit reason to change it? Sure, some could say, "But this isn't going to Play like CT. This is a whole new game". Solid reasoning? Yes. Am I able to make a solid response while not straying away from my first comment? Also yes.
Side Note: Optional Advantage
-----------------------------------
It seems as though the people who respond about the difference in available options between two people (me included) compared them with a person that equals out to their partner.
Spy A doesn't have Network Cams/Wrist Hacker
Spy B Has Network Cams/Wrist Hacker
Spy A < Spy B
Though that problem still exists in a sense it doesn't affect gameplay as dramatically as it's coming off as. Since Spy A isn't fighting Spy B. Spy A hasn't been playing the game as much as Spy B; such as, Spy B has different options to choose from.
They both go against the Mercs, still having a variety of options at their disposal, still able to pass by defenses, break necks, and hack/extract/blow up objectives. Just one has minor changes they could do. Again none of them HUGE. Spy B doesn't have an Optic Camo that last longer than Spy A's. Spy B doesn't have shoes that make them not show up on a Merc's Sound Detector.
Plus there could be a thought of Co-Op Gadgets. Such as Network Cams. The idea behind that is that Spies get a Camnet kind of Gadget that both players can use but they have to set up. Does that mean each one has to bring network cams? Could be if you balanced it that way, but not needed since there is already the big con of having to not move to look through cams.
Spy A == Spy B in this case except for the small fact that... Spy A can't set up the cams. Nothing gamebreakingly horrible there. No one is left without a Major option at their disposal.
Side Note: Mindset Control
---------------------------------------
It's easy to give everyone everything.
It's fun (To some people, I understand) to get things for doing something you already plan to do.
It's difficult to pick what can be held back without affecting Major Gameplay.
Lastly, it's hard to explain to people that are under the impression that they are getting everything that some stuff should be held back... At least in a way that makes sense.
This mechanic is also a means to help the developers when it comes to implementing new Gadgets. Since unlike CT, PS could gain more stuff as they go along. We don't know what they can cook up while we are playing, but the time inbetween new content we don't get anything new (Gadget Wise). A lull of nothingness can be minimized by a pacing of variation.
Holy shit, Cronky...look up the word "concise" in the dictionary, and quit being so verbose.
Nah, I'm fine.
;D
Quote from: Cronky on March 08, 2010, 10:18:53 PM
This mechanic is also a means to help the developers when it comes to implementing new Gadgets. Since unlike CT, PS could gain more stuff as they go along. We don't know what they can cook up while we are playing, but the time inbetween new content we don't get anything new (Gadget Wise). A lull of nothingness can be minimized by a pacing of variation.
How about a spy gadget like a trip rope. It could be placed in dark hallways or doors if the spy chooses. If the merc does not notice it, then if he crosses it he falls and gets knocked out just like a cam gas. If he notices, he can either shoot it or manually disable it.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 09, 2010, 02:06:38 AM
How about a spy gadget like a trip rope. It could be placed in dark hallways or doors if the spy chooses. If the merc does not notice it, then if he crosses it he falls and gets knocked out just like a cam gas. If he notices, he can either shoot it or manually disable it.
I think it would work if balanced out right. How would it be set up? Is it like a Spy Laser Mine? Or do you have to shoot two within a certain distance of eachother? (Connects between two points)
Probably should do what you said, but only knock them down. No knock out. Just a slight diversion that gives you a few seconds of freedom.
I think I remember talking about a trip rope. I think it would be pretty cool. As long as the spy also trips over them (including teammates). I'm thinking like the trap bolt from bioshock. Maybe it shoots out of the spy's launcher and has an electrical charge? Instead of tripping the merc maybe it would shock him a bit and give him a system mal?
It would have to be pretty thin with something the size of an alarm snare that attaches to the wall.
I like that. Pretty much a Free System Malfunction. (If the Merc runs over it)
Seems like a pretty legit gadget.
Plus firing like the Trap Bolt in Bioshock. Perfect.
Quote from: Cronky on March 09, 2010, 11:01:25 AM
I like that. Pretty much a Free System Malfunction. (If the Merc runs over it)
Seems like a pretty legit gadget.
Plus firing like the Trap Bolt in Bioshock. Perfect.
I think it'd be a cool gadget to try out as long as it had an indicator, like a little blue light, on the actual gadget that's on the wall holding the wire, so you'd have to put it behind things, such as the bookshelf things in the hallways on Clubhouse or it's easily seen, exactly like a mine. Otherwise, it'd be virtually impossible to see while chasing a spy.
On the subject of new gadgets, I think a device that projects a looping (3 sec?) holographic spy running in a straight line in the direction you were looking when it was dropped (dropped like the Jammer in DA) would be another cool gadget to try out. Think of this, spy is getting chased, runs around a corner and drops the device, merc turns the corner, sees the running spy and continues to chase it thinking it is the real spy, the second he discovers it's looping, he gets grabbed from the real spy. Bam, beast.
Quote from: tigaer on March 10, 2010, 02:02:47 AM
On the subject of new gadgets, I think a device that projects a looping (3 sec?) holographic spy running in a straight line in the direction you were looking when it was dropped (dropped like the Jammer in DA) would be another cool gadget to try out. Think of this, spy is getting chased, runs around a corner and drops the device, merc turns the corner, sees the running spy and continues to chase it thinking it is the real spy, the second he discovers it's looping, he gets grabbed from the real spy. Bam, beast.
Isn't this the same effect produced by a flash bang? The merc sees still standing spy along with a whitish color and it fools him as to where the spy actually is. The only difference here is the spy is seen moving rather than still. I see it as very similar, but hey it could work.
Quote from: tigaer on March 10, 2010, 02:02:47 AM
On the subject of new gadgets, I think a device that projects a looping (3 sec?) holographic spy running in a straight line in the direction you were looking when it was dropped (dropped like the Jammer in DA) would be another cool gadget to try out. Think of this, spy is getting chased, runs around a corner and drops the device, merc turns the corner, sees the running spy and continues to chase it thinking it is the real spy, the second he discovers it's looping, he gets grabbed from the real spy. Bam, beast.
The problem I find with this gadget idea is the quickness to realize the difference between hologram and real spy.
I'm sure your example could be better explained through visuals, but it sounds like it's a VERY situational gadget. The example being the only time it would work. Unless there was some huge deal behind it that made it able to tell the difference of areas and able to turn corners; it seems like only a couple situations would happen.
Either:
A.) The Merc sees that the motion tracker deal stopped ticking, but sees the spy still running. Giving away that the spy is using a hologram right away.
Solved by the hologram making noise, but then again. What would make noise? The Hologram itself, or the gadget where you used it?
The difference being that the hologram is moving so it would SEEM like the spy is ahead of the Merc even as the Merc gets closer to it (The motion tracker always saying where the noise is coming from in relation to the Holograms footsteps).
Or the device itself meaning that you would need to place it in front of your new hiding spot to momentarily throw off the Merc. (Like an Alarm Snare and it's inability to move)
AND/OR
B.) The hologram running into a wall (Since if it was just of a Spy running, I assume it wouldn't know to turn corners), thus the Merc (In a situation where the hologram isn't running down a long hall) instantly knowing that it's a hologram.
I could see the gadget working if you could record a few seconds of you doing something. Then using it later as bait. If you've played Braid, Blinx The Time Sweeper, the newest Ratchet and Clank, or basically any Time game that uses clones of yourself to solve puzzles then you can imagine the idea.
You record yourself Jumping, use the gadget and it replays you Jumping as a hologram. That kind of thing.
Holy shit it's the hologram gadget discussion again. Cuz holograms are real useful...see a spy, you shoot him. See a hologram, you shoot it. Hologram doesn't move, must be a fake...
Exactly how will that be useful?
Quote from: Spekkio on March 11, 2010, 01:10:04 AM
Holy shit it's the hologram gadget discussion again. Cuz holograms are real useful...see a spy, you shoot him. See a hologram, you shoot it. Hologram doesn't move, must be a fake...
Exactly how will that be useful?
The hologram would be a looping video of a sky running in a straight line in the direction it was dropped, so yes, it would move.
Hologram makes it's return. Cronky, if you want the hologram check out the beast of a thread that happened a while back.
Quote from: tigaer on March 11, 2010, 02:39:24 AM
The hologram would be a looping video of a sky running in a straight line in the direction it was dropped, so yes, it would move.
Quote from: Cronky
B.) The hologram running into a wall (Since if it was just of a Spy running, I assume it wouldn't know to turn corners), thus the Merc (In a situation where the hologram isn't running down a long hall) instantly knowing that it's a hologram.
I could see the gadget working if you could record a few seconds of you doing something. Then using it later as bait. If you've played Braid, Blinx The Time Sweeper, the newest Ratchet and Clank, or basically any Time game that uses clones of yourself to solve puzzles then you can imagine the idea.
You record yourself Jumping, use the gadget and it replays you Jumping as a hologram. That kind of thing.
I stand by this in response to Straight Running Holograms.
achievements are retarded
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 06:59:13 AM
achievements are retarded
And that is constructive critism how? Care to elaborate WHY they are retarted?
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 06:59:13 AM
achievements are retarded
I believe THIS counts as proof as to my point of, "Bashing ideas is easier than Defending them" I made earlier in this thread.
WOOT.
I have explained it many times in the past. people have asked for achievements like 10 times already.
They are retarded because people then end up getting those achievments by acting the rare situations out with their friends (throw merc of ledge onto his mate).
Also, if the achievements allow u to unlock new gadgets and weapons (which is unlikely in this mod) I hate them even more because it makes playing the game feel like a chore.. or as if one needs to get those things done (which take a loooong looong time) in order to eventually/possibly enjoy the game in a distant future lol.
IDK i just hate em..
If they are easy to get and do not affect your ability to use weapons then i dont care if they are implemented because then i could just ignore them anyway. But if they get in my way of being able to play the game comfortably then to me that gme goes straight to the trash bin.
(im not a huge fan of TF2 as u might have already imagined).
I mean the game is fun and all but the fact that the fuckin Valve guys want to keep me "hooked" by adding hats and retarded random ass achievmentes just makes me want to vomit.
I am not willing to become "addicted " to a game because of dumb small bonuses. Id rather be addicted to a game that is actually good.
I would love to see ranks for how many games I've played, also win/loss ratio - individual for spy and merc.
Also other stats:
Neckbreaks as spy
Kills and total times neckbreaked as merc.
And you could also add total objectives hacked (if you hacked alot of objectives but lost a big amount of games, maybe it was cause she/he had bad mate(s)
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 12:12:19 PM
I have explained it many times in the past. people have asked for achievements like 10 times already.
They are retarded because people then end up getting those achievments by acting the rare situations out with their friends (throw merc of ledge onto his mate).
The purpose of achievements is to reward people for their actions. If people fake these scenarios, it doesn't really matter, because the people who play the game legitimately benefit from the addition, and that's all that matters.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 12:12:19 PM
I am not willing to become "addicted " to a game because of dumb small bonuses. Id rather be addicted to a game that is actually good.
I don't think many people have become addicted to a game simply because of the achievements available, but that's besides the point, games aren't magically made worse by having achievements. TF2 is one of the best multiplayer games out there, being rewarded for playing the game doesn't make it worse! Now, rewards on the other hand
can harm the game, especially when they unlock specialised equipment (as they would have to in a game like Project Stealth), but this isn't an avenue that's being looked into.
Quote from: Sunshine on March 12, 2010, 01:47:53 PM
You could also add total objectives hacked.
Reading this gave me another idea for a challenge, thank you :)
Spy ChallengesBrute Force (Complete a total of 100 objectives)
Quote from: Two Guys
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 12:12:19 PM
Also, if the achievements allow u to unlock new gadgets and weapons (which is unlikely in this mod) I hate them even more because it makes playing the game feel like a chore..
If they are easy to get and do not affect your ability to use weapons then i don't care if they are implemented because then i could just ignore them anyway. But if they get in my way of being able to play the game comfortably then to me that game goes straight to the trash bin.
(im not a huge fan of TF2 as u might have already imagined).
Quote from: STONE3COLDKILLA
Now, rewards on the other hand can harm the game, especially when they unlock specialized equipment (as they would have to in a game like Project Stealth), but this isn't an avenue that's being looked into.
See, this is what I don't like. An Idea being stretched to an obviously bad point.
No one wants to WORK for their weapons. Roberto mentioning an old TF2 way of things. When Achievements went hand in hand with Rewards. You were forced to play a class if you wanted to advance in it. Forced to use "Lesser" equipment till you racked up enough achievements to unlock another. Valve got rid of that idea, and now goes by random giveaways. To which is fun (Because you can play as anything you want and still get stuff) and fair (You have just as good of a chance at getting Cloak and Dagger as anyone else at any time).
STON3 then goes on to write that rewards would have to unlock "Specialized Gadgets" which would ruin fun and fairness of the game. This makes every idea I've gone on about beforehand sound as if it's the ULTIMATE Gadget. Which is untrue, because I've only mentioned Variations of gadgets that are already out.
The idea of Gadget (Variation) Rewards could work if implemented LIKE TF2. Where you never KEEP someone from having an option, only give them more options when they play. The Cloak and Dagger in TF2 is just a variation of the Cloak Watch. Much like Network Cams vs Sticky Cams. Just another way to do the same thing with a slightly different mechanic.
Final Example:
Hologram Pod Deal: This straight running hologram wouldn't be locked. It's new, but to lock it means that no one can use Holograms at all. A variation where as it records a segment of what you do and replays it could be locked. Doesn't keep you from using the hologram, but gives you a slightly different option to play around with when you get it.
You still are forced to Kill/Hack/Snag or Blow up stuff to win. To which nothing is given to change THAT. Just what you CAN do to get to these objectives.
(Plus the thought that "I have to Work to play Comfortably" doesn't make sense to me, since you don't base your gameplay tactics and methods on items you Don't have)
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 12, 2010, 04:15:16 PM
I don't think many people have become addicted to a game simply because of the achievements available, but that's besides the point, games aren't magically made worse by having achievements. TF2 is one of the best multiplayer games out there, being rewarded for playing the game doesn't make it worse! Now, rewards on the other hand can harm the game, especially when they unlock specialised equipment (as they would have to in a game like Project Stealth), but this isn't an avenue that's being looked into.
Ok well may I ask you how many hours you have in TF2? How many of the unlocks you have? why there are servers called "Idling Servers"? and why the rest of the game developers jacked Valves achievement idea after they put it into TF2? (notice how after valve implemented it to TF2, all of a sudden every game around has em... There might have been a few game with rankings before TF2, but im pretty sure achievements where valves idea)
Ok em, when did i ever even use the word magic or suggest this... This is the worst argument you could have used against an agnostic/atheist like me lol
I understand this would be a matter of opinion purely, but I truly LOL'ed on this claim... the game is fun like i stated before, but comon.... how could one is claim it is "one of the best shooters out there". Thene again, im sorrounded by people who like anime... (I think i dont fit in well in this forum's environment lol).
Well u previously stated that achievements werent retarded because some honest people dont fake scenarios and that that is what counts. Well idk why now ur saying PS would "[have to be the kind of game where achievements would unlock specialized equipment]", the game could very well have achievements that dont do anything but get ticked on a checklist and I wouldnt care less because then i would just ignore them, just as others will fake the scenarios, and people like u would be all like "look at my achievments i didnt fake em, give me reputation" to which i LOL at...
That is why I summarize achievemnts as total retardation.. They create nothing but a fake ass image of a player and artificially extend the life of an online game mode.
If u implement them you will increase the population of AgentX type douchebags that care so much about the game and their "reputation" that they dedicate their worthless lives at pestering other players and recording matches against them to give em a bad "reputation".
I can see agent all like "You fuckiin noobs got those achievments in a fake manner fuck u OMG OMG" (LOL)
Quote from: Cronky on March 12, 2010, 07:55:22 PM
(Plus the thought that "I have to Work to play Comfortably" doesn't make sense to me, since you don't base your gameplay tactics and methods on items you Don't have)
You are right but
I am not the kind of player that develops "tactics"... I prefer relying on fast reaction times and awareness. Though tactics and planning out does work, I dont take time to do them. I am an amateur gamer, I dont do it for a living and therefore dont take it as seriously as to be doing tactics...
This may have not been a reply to me, but I'd like to answer some of them while I'm here :)
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Ok well may I ask you how many hours you have in TF2? How many of the unlocks you have? why there are servers called "Idling Servers"? and why the rest of the game developers jacked Valves achievement idea after they put it into TF2? (notice how after valve implemented it to TF2, all of a sudden every game around has em... There might have been a few game with rankings before TF2, but I'm pretty sure achievements where valves idea)
A grip of hours. Not all the Unlocks (Which these first two are my point on why unlockable variation rewards would be good). Some people would rather cheat the system to get unlocks while playing the game and not. http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=176336 (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=176336) Valve didn't make achievements.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Ok em, when did i ever even use the word magic or suggest this... This is the worst argument you could have used against an agnostic/atheist like me lol
Equally as bad of a response since you took the word literally, rather than metaphorically. ;D
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
I understand this would be a matter of opinion purely, but I truly LOL'ed on this claim... the game is fun like i stated before, but come on.... how could one is claim it is "one of the best shooters out there". Then again, I'm surrounded by people who like anime... (I think i don't fit in well in this forum's environment lol).
The claim is supported by how many people still play it 3 years after it's release. With active servers, and new content coming in regularly.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Well u previously stated that achievements weren't retarded because some honest people don't fake scenarios and that that is what counts. Well idk why now ur saying PS would "[have to be the kind of game where achievements would unlock specialized equipment]", the game could very well have achievements that don't do anything but get ticked on a checklist and I wouldn't care less because then i would just ignore them, just as others will fake the scenarios, and people like u would be all like "look at my achievements I didn't fake em, give me reputation" to which i LOL at...
His rewards were the checklist, my reward was the gadgets.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
That is why I summarize achievements as total retardation.. They create nothing but a fake ass image of a player and artificially extend the life of an online game mode.
If u implement them you will increase the population of AgentX type douchebags that care so much about the game and their "reputation" that they dedicate their worthless lives at pestering other players and recording matches against them to give em a bad "reputation".
I can see agent all like "You fuckiin noobs got those achievements in a fake manner fuck u OMG OMG" (LOL)
You can't eradicate the people who take status over fun. Solid Tactics over Improvisation. Giving both people what they want isn't bad. It brings widespread appeal.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 10:13:14 PM
Quote from: Cronky on March 12, 2010, 07:55:22 PM
(Plus the thought that "I have to Work to play Comfortably" doesn't make sense to me, since you don't base your gameplay tactics and methods on items you Don't have)
You are right but
I am not the kind of player that develops "tactics"... I prefer relying on fast reaction times and awareness. Though tactics and planning out does work, I don't take time to do them. I am an amateur gamer, I don't do it for a living and therefore don't take it as seriously as to be doing tactics...
Then why are you so against rewards (In my sense of it). You aren't kept from doing anything, but while you are casually playing the game you get something new to play with. Something new to try out. Not anything Major, but something big enough to warrant some time spent tinkering around with. (Such as the TF2 weapons are)
I have just over 200 hours of TF2 and have all unlocks except the Eyelander. Just wanted to mention that.
I loved the rewards in Modern Warfare 2, it added a lot of replay value and I still play it even though I'm a level 5 prestiege, so I have no problem with unlockable secondary gadgets, like a wifi hacking gadget, emp grenades (alternative to chaff) and phosphorus grenades (alternative to frag) that actually kill. Basically just add a spin on a current gadget and make it unlockable, I'd be happy with that.
And that's what I've been trying to say in my longer than needed posts.
Variations of Gadgets as rewards, not Gadgets in general.
(Though I may have actually started by saying just "Gadgets"...
<.<
I meant Variations from the beginning) ;D
Speaking of gadgets, have the heart sensor or backpack been created yet? They are two obvious ones that I have not seen. Or maybe there is nothing to showcase since they are internal without actual objects to create...
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 13, 2010, 01:51:27 AM
Speaking of gadgets, have the heart sensor or backpack been created yet? They are two obvious ones that I have not seen. Or maybe there is nothing to showcase since they are internal without actual objects to create...
You never know... ;)
Backpack would be cool to have as a visual.
Perhaps a kind of "PS 2" (But hell, this game isn't Beta yet, so why not now) Idea though, but it'd be kinda sweet to have everything actually have a visual that get's placed on the model of the respective side. Of course it doesn't have to DO anything, but if someone has a backpack... They have a backpack on. If they have a heartbeat sensor... Perhaps their weapon of choice has a little attachment on it.
That kind of thing.
Quote from: Cronky on March 13, 2010, 03:45:45 AM
Backpack would be cool to have as a visual.
I thought we already showed that thing on the mercenary model screenshots?
EDIT: Watch closely on the left hip: http://www.projectstealthgame.com/public/renders/mercmodel/mercfinishedfront.jpg
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Thene again, im sorrounded by people who like anime... (I think i dont fit in well in this forum's environment lol).
Yeah,
Lennard.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 13, 2010, 02:37:07 PM
Quote from: Cronky on March 13, 2010, 03:45:45 AM
Backpack would be cool to have as a visual.
I thought we already showed that thing on the mercenary model screenshots?
EDIT: Watch closely on the left hip: http://www.projectstealthgame.com/public/renders/mercmodel/mercfinishedfront.jpg
Sweet Mana from Heaven. The Merc is wearing a Fanny Pack!
;D
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
Ok well may I ask you how many hours you have in TF2? How many of the unlocks you have? why there are servers called "Idling Servers"? and why the rest of the game developers jacked Valves achievement idea after they put it into TF2? (notice how after valve implemented it to TF2, all of a sudden every game around has em... There might have been a few game with rankings before TF2, but im pretty sure achievements where valves idea)
I have played TF2 for just over half a day in total, I honestly don't have a lot of time for gaming. So as you would expect, I haven't unlocked many rewards. Idling servers exist so that casual players of TF2 can unlock items that are usually only available to dedicate a lot of time to the game. This has nothing to do with an addiction to gaining achievements. The creation of idling servers correlates with the addition of rewards to TF2. Achievements have been around for a long time, the most famous example being Xbox Live Achievements, TF2 most definitely did not start the craze. I didn't even say anything to contest the invention of achievements in my post, so why do you use this against me?
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMOk em, when did i ever even use the word magic or suggest this... This is the worst argument you could have used against an agnostic/atheist like me lol
You said that "Id rather be addicted to a game that is actually good." This implies that if achievements are in a game, you cannot become addicted to the quality of the game, that you can only become addicted to the achievements which are available, and that having achievements makes the game worse. The connotations of the word 'magic' by your implications, and have nothing to do with your religious beliefs (which also do not clarify or aid your argument). I suggest that you improve your metaphorical understanding.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMI understand this would be a matter of opinion purely, but I truly LOL'ed on this claim... the game is fun like i stated before, but comon.... how could one is claim it is "one of the best shooters out there". Thene again, im sorrounded by people who like anime... (I think i dont fit in well in this forum's environment lol).
You're trying to downplay my point by saying that your surrounded by fans of anime. This implies that anime is bad, and that because of this, your argument is more valid than fans of the anime genre. The belief that anime is bad is an
opinion, so despite
saying that you understand matters of opinion, evidence suggests you do not. I don't even like anime, and since the argument is between me and you, not the community, your argument is obsolete. You could claim that TF2 is one of the best shooters out there based on a few things. Firstly, it has a metacritic score of 92, and a metacritic
user score of 9.5 (which at the end of the day, is the most important factor). Also, the game is still played by hundreds of thousands of people years after the release date. Now, having mass appeal doesn't make the game any better, but when so many people are
still playing the game after such a long period of time, this is indicative of the game's quality, and there are few games that can match such a feat.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMWell u previously stated that achievements werent retarded because some honest people dont fake scenarios and that that is what counts. Well idk why now ur saying PS would "[have to be the kind of game where achievements would unlock specialized equipment]", the game could very well have achievements that dont do anything but get ticked on a checklist and I wouldnt care less because then i would just ignore them, just as others will fake the scenarios, and people like u would be all like "look at my achievments i didnt fake em, give me reputation" to which i LOL at...
I most certainly do not crave reputation, and I certainly do not seek respect from achievements. Your attempts to fit me into a stereotype are poor, and you are unable to back them up with any evidence. I'm saying that unlockable achievements in Project Stealth would not be a good idea, I never suggested gadgets as a reward, I do not defend that viewpoint. You say that you 'LOL' at me, but let's be honest here, the jokes on you.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMThat is why I summarize achievemnts as total retardation.. They create nothing but a fake ass image of a player and artificially extend the life of an online game mode.
Based upon the flaws of your summary, it is impossible to agree with your argument.
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMIf u implement them you will increase the population of AgentX type douchebags that care so much about the game and their "reputation" that they dedicate their worthless lives at pestering other players and recording matches against them to give em a bad "reputation".
Do you honestly believe that your attempts to marginalise and demean AgentX have any relevance to the topic of achievements? I think that he's unfairly slandered, and that you have to lead a pretty "worthless life" to infatuate yourself with the process insulting him. And let me just say that your failed attempts to find common ground with me in our opinions regarding AgentX do not strengthen your argument, and most certainly don't make me respect your opinion. Now, whilst the addition of achievements is likely to increase the amount of people who care about reputation, this does not detract from the game at all, so what's your point? Also, the addition of achievements has no correlation to the increase in recorded matches. In fact, it's actually more likely that less matches be recorded, as a lot of people think that an achievement list speaks for itself. I'm not saying that I agree with that, but the fact that people believe it is true. The main thing to remember here is that many people fake achievements, but it doesn't decrease the quality of the game).
Quote from: Roberto1223 on March 12, 2010, 09:55:34 PMI can see agent all like "You fuckiin noobs got those achievments in a fake manner fuck u OMG OMG" (LOL)
You're attempting to insult AgentX by stating what is actually your
own attitude towards faking achievements. Sometimes, I wonder if you actually try to make your standing worse on purpose... I suggest that you reflect on this, realise why you're wrong, and who knows, maybe you'll become a little more mature while your at it.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on March 13, 2010, 07:29:30 PM
maybe you'll become a little more mature while your at it.
oh damn man you put all that effort into trying to sound sophisticated and wise and you were so close to the finish and then you just ruined it
i'm sorry for you i really am
ps anime is terrible tbqh
pps except strike witches strike witches is totally cool
I put effort into sounding sophisticated and wise? I didn't really try, so thanks I guess :). Out of interest, how did I ruin it?
I think he means the accusation of immaturity in comparison to your own maturity in acknowledging and announcing such things.
If that's the case, I fail to see how I've been immature :)
It's immature in the sense that...
Say two kids are fighting over a toy and one calls the other one a "Baby" for being all fussy and not sharing. The same comment could be said about YOU, but not for the EXACT same reason.
Acknowledgment and Universally Justified Name Calling in this situation is the Immature part.
"You're Stupid"
"Your Mom"
"I'm Right, You're wrong"
"You're Immature"
In certain contexts they work just fine. In others... they just lessen the overall affect of what preceded it.
(At least by my understanding of what the problem was)
In this context I'm responding to immature comments, it does not make me immature to respond to that with the same respect as has been directed towards myself ;).
To which doesn't negate the fact that you too were being immature with that comment you made saying he was being immature.
;D
On-topic please?
I think STON3's Challenges are Saaaahweeeeeeeeet!
AND
Gadget Variation Rewards could work if implemented right.
Now we're BACK ON TRACK!
Quote from: Cronky on March 14, 2010, 09:15:07 PM
Gadget Variation Rewards could work if implemented right.
you cannot be serious?!?!?!
I SAW THE CHALK!
Everyone should have the same gadgets at all level but I think there *COULD* be some room for unlockables. Novelty gadgets come to mind. Whoopee cushion mines that still kill and act like proxies, water squirting flower that stuns like the tazer, and things like that. I mean funny gadget skins for the veterans to play with. Obviously unlockable character skins would be cool too. Police officer mercs w/ hot pants = win.
Of course. I forgot to add in Skins/Hats/Extra Doodads (Perhaps Holiday Attire).
Honest Mistake on my part.
Again, if Implemented right. Just so that it doesn't just feel tagged on.
(Play 5 games and unlock this... Play 10 games and Unlock this... Play 20 Games and Unlock This... <--- That kind of thing)
Quote from: Cronky on March 14, 2010, 06:43:28 PM
To which doesn't negate the fact that you too were being immature with that comment you made saying he was being immature.
;D
You really have nothing to back that up, you haven't negated my point ;). NOW we're back on topic, I hope :P. Maybe a poll is in order?
I miss the days where I could pay money for a game and actually play all of its content without meeting certain criteria first.
No, seriously. Some of you guys probably don't remember what it was like to bring home your copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 and be able to play as Luigi without having to log 100 hours and beat level 3-1 in under 50 seconds. You could even use the Tanooki suit without having to beat the game without dying! And everyone loves Tanooki Mario! That statue totally fooled the Goombas!
Now developers have you kiddies so brainwashed that you're actually asking the PS developers to restrict your gaming content. Will wonders ever cease?
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2010, 11:17:01 PM
I miss the days where I could pay money for a game and actually play all of its content without meeting certain criteria first.
No, seriously. Some of you guys probably don't remember what it was like to bring home your copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 and be able to play as Luigi without having to log 100 hours and beat level 3-1 in under 50 seconds. You could even use the Tanooki suit without having to beat the game without dying! And everyone loves Tanooki Mario! That statue totally fooled the Goombas!
Now developers have you kiddies so brainwashed that you're actually asking the PS developers to restrict your gaming content. Will wonders ever cease?
Let me tell you why that was a bad choice of games.
PRETTY sure 2nd player was the only one that could play as Luigi. (So you HAD to find a friend) ***Must Meet Criteria***
Items were still restricted... You actually having to play the game to get power ups. Assuming you meant to say this as a, "Everything should be had right from the start" ideology. I don't remember starting any Mario game with even so Much as a Mushroom. Actually having to enter a level/Play the game (WHICH I already planned to do) to be given one. I'll even connect it more with rewards with this game in saying that... While the Mushroom is available in one of the first blocks of the first level... That didn't mean you HAD to get it.
You also mixed "Restricted" content with achievements.
Just because you got it in a different time frame doesn't mean the idea is any different. So Mario gave you stuff in quick succession. You still got power ups for just playing the game... Or did those Mushroom houses just kind of blend into the background for you. Did the Card Slider Mini game not give you 1ups for playing it? Did getting three of the same end level cards not give you a special little animation, and a set number of extra lives? You got rewarded for finding Secrets with Whistles. Something you couldn't get unless you actually were to try stuff aside from the norm.
Good Try though. ;D
Another game and I might of been FOOLED.
If you think that unlockable content through menial tasks is the same thing as actually having to find something throughout the normal course of the game, you're really fucking retarded. Either that, or you're just arguing for the sake of wasting data space on the internet.
Finding a Tanooki suit in World 5 and unlocking one by tediously stomping on 1,000 Goomba heads is not the same thing.
Oh, and you could play as Luigi by starting a 2p game and killing off Mario...or you could just find friends. Point is, you don't have to do some menial task in order to unlock a Luigi costume.
Spekkio, I think you are a smart person, but are you that Ignorant, or is it that hard to admit that you're wrong?
It's the same fucking idea.
You get REWARDED for Playing the Game!
You don't miss out on anything for NOT getting said Rewards. You can beat the game with None, or you could beat the game with all. Having more means that you have more options at your disposal, but you have to work to actually get those optional Items. The items in question not being ESSENTIAL to your progress through the game.
Achievements are EXTRA things you CAN do...
Plus you really believe that me starting a two player game then having to spend 5 turns killing a character isn't a "Menial Task"? I fail to understand exactly what a menial task is. Since even in doing that doesn't mean you UNLOCKED a Luigi Costume... You are just playing as 2nd Player instead of playing as 1st.
Cronky, I'm not being ignorant at all. You're the one who can't see the difference between playing through a game normally and spending hours upon hours doing stupid shit to unlock content solely for the sake of having unlockable content. It's the difference between finding a Tanooki suit in level 5 and having to jump on hundreds of thousands of Goombas to get one; it's the difference between finding an item in a hidden chest in FF7 in a dungeon you'd ordinarily visit and spending over 8 hours Chocobo breeding to get one.
But hey, maybe there are some people who buy a friggin
role playing game so you can spend multiple hours, even days, breeding oversized chickens and racing them. I'm not that guy.
I'm not contending that 100% of items in a singleplayer game need to be available at the outset; that would be boring and silly. But finding items throughout the course of a normal game serves a purpose within the context of the game. Requiring a player to do X or Y extra things to unlock a costume or have an extra gadget serves no purpose. It's unlockable content for the sake of having unlockable content. It doesn't add any replay value to the game because it's fucking boring to accomplish. I'm not motivated to spend hours mashing on L2 in Street Fighter 4 with Zangief in Challenge Mode in order to unlock extra costume colors; I'd rather the developers have included that option to begin with to thank me for my $60.
Yet somehow it's impossible for you to see this very clear distinction.
QuoteYou don't miss out on anything for NOT getting said Rewards. You can beat the game with None, or you could beat the game with all. Having more means that you have more options at your disposal, but you have to work to actually get those optional Items. The items in question not being ESSENTIAL to your progress through the game.
Excuse me, but who are you to tell me whether I'm missing out on something?
More importantly, why should I have to waste time doing something extremely boring in order to have access to something that I would otherwise find fun to have?
There isn't a single game today that has unlockable achievements that doesn't require completely repetitive, boring, and time consuming actions. Perhaps that's not a big deal to people whose only responsibility in life is to go to middle school, but I prefer to be able to play a full game without devoting 100 extra hours to it for no other reason.
QuoteAchievements are EXTRA things you CAN do...
Yea, things you CAN do if you have a ton of extra time and enjoy repetitive tasks.
You want to spend time going out of your way to count your jumps on a merc or something, then be my guest. But your only reward for it should be knowing that you're a loser who actually gives a shit about such things. As for the rest of us, give us our game content up front. You get to do your "extra" stuff, and I get my gaming content. It's a win-win situation.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2010, 12:53:04 AM
Cronky, I'm not being ignorant at all. You're the one who can't see the difference between playing through a game normally and spending hours upon hours doing stupid shit to unlock content solely for the sake of having unlockable content. It's the difference between finding a Tanooki suit in level 5 and having to jump on hundreds of thousands of Goombas to get one; it's the difference between finding an item in a hidden chest in FF7 in a dungeon you'd ordinarily visit and spending over 8 hours Chocobo breeding to get one.
But hey, maybe there are some people who buy a friggin role playing game so you can spend multiple hours, even days, breeding oversized chickens and racing them. I'm not that guy.
I'm not contending that 100% of items in a singleplayer game need to be available at the outset; that would be boring and silly. But finding items throughout the course of a normal game serves a purpose within the context of the game. Requiring a player to do X or Y extra things to unlock a costume or have an extra gadget serves no purpose. It's unlockable content for the sake of having unlockable content. It doesn't add any replay value to the game because it's fucking boring to accomplish. I'm not motivated to spend hours mashing on L2 in Street Fighter 4 with Zangief in Challenge Mode in order to unlock extra costume colors; I'd rather the developers have included that option to begin with to thank me for my $60.
Yet somehow it's impossible for you to see this very clear distinction.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2010, 12:53:04 AM
Excuse me, but who are you to tell me whether I'm missing out on something?
More importantly, why should I have to waste time doing something extremely boring in order to have access to something that I would otherwise find fun to have?
There isn't a single game today that has unlockable achievements that doesn't require completely repetitive, boring, and time consuming actions. Perhaps that's not a big deal to people whose only responsibility in life is to go to middle school, but I prefer to be able to play a full game without devoting 100 extra hours to it for no other reason.
There you go adding in examples that hold little in comparison to the topic at hand.
You're adding STON3's "Challenges" in with what I said for "Gadget Variation Rewards". Two separate ideas that are in no way connected.
On top of that you were using the phrase "Menial Task", but somehow differentiating that because one thing may only takes 5 minutes, and another may take 5 hours (I know that's not what you said, but you went to a huge extreme) means that the first option isn't a "Menial Task".
Variation Rewards would be gained much like more Recent TF2 styles. You get something for doing something you already planned on doing. (Playing the Game)
Like the suits you got in Mario. Just because you got the Frog Suit, or the P Suit somewhere didn't mean that you NEEDED it, or that you were somehow lesser till you got it. It's another option that is a variation of the standard gameplay from that which you have had since you first started the game up. May be useful in certain situations, but far from impossible to get by without them.
The P Suit is actually a really good example that compares to these Variation Rewards. You had to spend time playing the game, that you were already playing, beating all the levels till you got to the castle, to which you had to do anyway. You had to beat the Castle Level and kill the Boss. Then BAM you got a power up for doing it all. An unknown and unique reward for the beating a world, for playing the game. Nothing special need be done, just play it, and you get it.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2010, 12:53:04 AM
Yea, things you CAN do if you have a ton of extra time and enjoy repetitive tasks.
You want to spend time going out of your way to count your jumps on a merc or something, then be my guest. But your only reward for it should be knowing that you're a loser who actually gives a shit about such things. As for the rest of us, give us our game content up front. You get to do your "extra" stuff, and I get my gaming content. It's a win-win situation.
I think that's Stat Tracking you're talking about... you're kinda mushing a lot of things together that don't reside in the same area.
Achievements (or rightfully put in this idea's terms "Challenges") are there just so you have something you take away from each game. Much like the Medals in Halo, The Achievements in Conker Live and Reloaded, or I believe Lennard said something about BF:BC2 (<--- Don't know what these are).
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbiobreak.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F11%2F875694-nerd_rage_super.jpg&hash=bfd19321cdda78433cc603eaa8f6df239c85c93a)
Quote from: FarleyFan on March 16, 2010, 02:46:35 AM
look above
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmybroadband.co.za%2Fphotos%2Fdata%2F500%2Fseal-of-approval.jpg&hash=a57f3b0af9ba21ec11da8bd77fdea3801a970aa3)
Can you split into another topic if you wish to talk about rewarding the player with objects? This is not the topic that I set out to create, personally I agree that the idea of unlocking items is bullshit for this game, but I want to know what you think about my idea of rewards that merely acknowledge the player, which can be used as a form of ranking.
From what I read, people are almost unanimously FOR your ideas as long as they don't give anything physical. Since if there is nothing to gain, and nothing to lose. Then there is no reason to not put them in.
The reason I don't feel bad about ALSO posting my stuff here is while yes right NOW the subjects say "Re: Challenge Based Rankings". If you look at the first page, 2nd reply forward for a while, they also say , "Ranking, Statistics, and Unlockables".
Also it's not as if I am not talking about your Idea in almost all of my posts. Just that everyone has no huge problem with them, as stated above.
The only reason that the post subjects are different is because an admin changed the title before I changed the title back to a more relevant name. I feel that the posts regarding gadgets rewards revolve around a completely different topic, and thus should be in a different topic. As for whether the opinion that these challenges should be in the game is unanimous, I would hope that's true, but so far I have only seen a few people who seem to approve of it.
I understand what you mean. It should in all actuality be in another topic like you say, but all the posts about it transferred here from the topic, that if I remember right, these all came from. (Didn't we start this all up in the new Poll Results thread?)
As for the opinion. It seems to be that the people against it either are saying:
"It needlessly adds statistics. Catering only to those that play for stats alone. While at the same time wasting the dev's time by having to add this." (Goes hand in hand with the Stat Tracking idea)
Or
"There's nothing to gain, and nothing to lose. So why not? Sounds like a fun concept in theory."
or in Spekkio's Case (And some others)
"You have to crack 30 necks to unlock another item"
His opinion perhaps being proof that the unlocks idea should be moved because of the confusion it has caused.
(If you're reading this Spekkio (or Others) I again say this. The two ideas are completely different and don't connect in any way)