One thing that always annoyed me in CT was how shitty the balance was.
Gas mask is necessary out of an imbalanced relationship, taser is useless unless you're fighting two aggro spies, and only then is it mildly useful, camnet is simply bad because it relies on the map for balance rather than being inherently balanced, backpack is just a boost for good gadgets, spy trap is pretty much the only balanced option, with mines and grenades being overpowered.
On the other side we have spies, with flashbangs being useless (only working on one vision for 3 seconds), heartbeat and spy bullet sharing the same ability, the only difference being spy bullet is usable during hacking, and heart beat goes through walls. Smoke grenade blocks 2/3 vision modes and slows down mercs, and stickies can instantly knockout a merc. Chaff are only useful for mines placed in a fashion which makes them too hard to target, and they will be useless when they cannot go through walls. Camo acts as an ambush tool, but is really obvious unless the merc is in a hurry, or you're in a spot where the merc doesn't look too hard, hence making it a very niche tool and therefore weak.
Merc loadouts:
Frag grenades
Mines
-Gadget-
Gas mask
Spy loadout:
-Gadget-
-Gadget-
Sticky Camera
-Spy bullet/Heartbeat-
Now, how has project stealth planned to avoid these imbalances?
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
No I mean rocket launchers that blow stuff up.
We plan to allow rocket jumping for spies, like in quake 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86faXZ3_ovY
That should allow for much more quick-paced movement.
Also, that video is about what we plan for in terms of merc run speed as well.
Plus, mercs will be able to counter the rocket launchers with a Hadouken.
This is so exciting!
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi472.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr88%2Flunacarlos992%2Fpineapple-express-craig-robinson-11.jpg&hash=6e36dc1492ba81f338ca2277beb5b1eb044aa739)
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:27:30 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
No I mean rocket launchers that blow stuff up.
We plan to allow rocket jumping for spies, like in quake 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86faXZ3_ovY
That should allow for much more quick-paced movement.
Also, that video is about what we plan for in terms of merc run speed as well.
Plus, mercs will be able to counter the rocket launchers with a Hadouken.
Can you explain this a little more? I am not exactly seeing the point of it. So it blows up objects but not mercs? I cannot see the real advantage. And it is used to fast travel across a map? I am not exactly a fan of quick movement like that. It should be stealthy movement not some rapid warping device. And what is a Hadouken?
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 06:41:31 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:27:30 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
No I mean rocket launchers that blow stuff up.
We plan to allow rocket jumping for spies, like in quake 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86faXZ3_ovY
That should allow for much more quick-paced movement.
Also, that video is about what we plan for in terms of merc run speed as well.
Plus, mercs will be able to counter the rocket launchers with a Hadouken.
Can you explain this a little more? I am not exactly seeing the point of it. So it blows up objects but not mercs? I cannot see the real advantage. And it is used to fast travel across a map? I am not exactly a fan of quick movement like that. It should be stealthy movement not some rapid warping device. And what is a Hadouken?
It blows up mercs, too. Instant kill.
That should even out the 80% merc wins from CT.
Mercs get the hadouken from street fighter 2, which is the energy ball attack that Ryu gets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJKS3r_YUg
EDIT: the above hadouken video isnt really a good example.
This is a better example of what we're going for: (watch the end)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF66L0rWBbI
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:44:40 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 06:41:31 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:27:30 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
No I mean rocket launchers that blow stuff up.
We plan to allow rocket jumping for spies, like in quake 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86faXZ3_ovY
That should allow for much more quick-paced movement.
Also, that video is about what we plan for in terms of merc run speed as well.
Plus, mercs will be able to counter the rocket launchers with a Hadouken.
Can you explain this a little more? I am not exactly seeing the point of it. So it blows up objects but not mercs? I cannot see the real advantage. And it is used to fast travel across a map? I am not exactly a fan of quick movement like that. It should be stealthy movement not some rapid warping device. And what is a Hadouken?
It blows up mercs, too. Instant kill.
That should even out the 80% merc wins from CT.
Mercs get the hadouken from street fighter 2, which is the energy ball attack that Ryu gets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJKS3r_YUg
I would not say the mercs win 80%. Actually my mate and I won over half of our spy rounds. The balance has more to do with the map and its size/layout than the actual gadgets themselves. I do agree that the flash bang was a little underpowered, but other than that gameplay was based purely on the map. How could you play to make rocket launchers and hadoukens stealthy? In my mind I see this turning into a massive mess. Obviously this assessment is based purely on my imagination because I do not have my hands on this game, but I just can't see it happening. It moves the game away from its foundation and core.
It will be stealthy when we put in teleporting for spies like raiden in mortal kombat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfxX5OBAikU
Plus, mercs get wall-climbing like in aliens versus predator to balance out the ability for spies to teleport like that.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com%2F2007%2F01%2F2000455272489756911_rs.jpg&hash=56c6689ece884ed1a36173435407afaf7f702f15)
Go on...
:)
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:59:22 AM
It will be stealthy when we put in teleporting for spies like raiden in mortal kombat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfxX5OBAikU
Plus, mercs get wall-climbing like in aliens versus predator to balance out the ability for spies to teleport like that.
I still think we need to make a fourth vision mode for merc where he can see through walls so he can atleast follow the teleporting spy, otherwise teleporting is going to work too well. Has kebab modeled the light bulb suit for the merc yet?
Quote from: tigaer on March 14, 2010, 07:30:13 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:59:22 AM
It will be stealthy when we put in teleporting for spies like raiden in mortal kombat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfxX5OBAikU
Plus, mercs get wall-climbing like in aliens versus predator to balance out the ability for spies to teleport like that.
I still think we need to make a fourth vision mode for merc where he can see through walls so he can atleast follow the teleporting spy, otherwise teleporting is going to work too well. Has kebab modeled the light bulb suit for the merc yet?
He doesn't need to model a whole suit. We just need to model a single lightbulb and propagate the mesh across the existing model per-vertex. Then you have the lightbulb suit.
Though, we will need a model for the jetpacks.
I think I invented Dev-bait.
Who's modeling the boomerang? That's a crucial component to our new gamemode, Annihilation.
I am modeling the boomerang with i-sketch. It will be directly imported into the game from there. Do you guys want pink or maroon colored boomerangs? Those are your two options.
I rather want a real Australian one, because mercenaries are actually Australian undercover spies and the boomerang should be a hint for the real spies to figure that out!
Oh shit, did I just spoil the singleplayer plot twist?
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 14, 2010, 12:21:48 PM
I rather want a real Australian one, because mercenaries are actually Australian undercover spies and the boomerang should be a hint for the real spies to figure that out!
Oh shit, did I just spoil the singleplayer plot twist?
Fucking damnit man. We've spoiled too much.
But seriously though, balance issues will be resolved by actually playing the game and not by imagining "what could be wrong". Again: Different engine, different game, different code. Really, stop comparing us to CT on a 1 on 1 scale.
We will do our best to make every element of the game needed in some way. Heck, maybe we even think something up so a flare could actually be useful.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 14, 2010, 02:38:56 PM
We will do our best to make every element of the game needed in some way. Heck, maybe we even think something up so a flare could actually be useful.
Flares could leave a trail of phosphorous smoke behind them, and it could act (in a way) like a phospho nade.
Quote from: Opioid on March 14, 2010, 02:59:39 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 14, 2010, 02:38:56 PM
We will do our best to make every element of the game needed in some way. Heck, maybe we even think something up so a flare could actually be useful.
Flares could leave a trail of phosphorous smoke behind them, and it could act (in a way) like a phospho nade.
For example, it would be the most logical too as phospho cast a very bright when it lights up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTzcwc9ZSJU
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 06:53:14 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:44:40 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 06:41:31 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 06:27:30 AM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 05:41:06 AM
Quote from: MR.Mic on March 14, 2010, 05:29:59 AM
We're giving spies rocket launchers to smooth out the overall imbalance from CT's spy/merc dynamic.
Rocket Launchers?!?!?!?!? You have to be kidding me, right? I thought this was a stealth game not a massive blowup destruction game...I cannot see this working whatsoever if bombs are launched out of it. But if you are talking about lauching the smoke, chaff, flash, etc. then it is a different story... And there was balance in CT. Mercs would win probably 60%-70% of the time for pros, but that is how it should be. After all, they are supposed to be more powerful. It makes the win as spy that much more rewarding. Another reason that mercs won more was because of bad teamwork. If you are always playing with a different mate, then you cannot develop any plans of executing the objectives.
No I mean rocket launchers that blow stuff up.
We plan to allow rocket jumping for spies, like in quake 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86faXZ3_ovY
That should allow for much more quick-paced movement.
Also, that video is about what we plan for in terms of merc run speed as well.
Plus, mercs will be able to counter the rocket launchers with a Hadouken.
Can you explain this a little more? I am not exactly seeing the point of it. So it blows up objects but not mercs? I cannot see the real advantage. And it is used to fast travel across a map? I am not exactly a fan of quick movement like that. It should be stealthy movement not some rapid warping device. And what is a Hadouken?
It blows up mercs, too. Instant kill.
That should even out the 80% merc wins from CT.
Mercs get the hadouken from street fighter 2, which is the energy ball attack that Ryu gets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJKS3r_YUg
I would not say the mercs win 80%. Actually my mate and I won over half of our spy rounds. The balance has more to do with the map and its size/layout than the actual gadgets themselves. I do agree that the flash bang was a little underpowered, but other than that gameplay was based purely on the map. How could you play to make rocket launchers and hadoukens stealthy? In my mind I see this turning into a massive mess. Obviously this assessment is based purely on my imagination because I do not have my hands on this game, but I just can't see it happening. It moves the game away from its foundation and core.
Get out.
zomg, I'm gone for 1.5 fucking days and it's a mess. *is undecided about moving this to OT. MEH*
You could just separate the topic :P
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 06:53:14 AMI would not say the mercs win 80%. Actually my mate and I won over half of our spy rounds. The balance has more to do with the map and its size/layout than the actual gadgets themselves. I do agree that the flash bang was a little underpowered, but other than that gameplay was based purely on the map. How could you play to make rocket launchers and hadoukens stealthy? In my mind I see this turning into a massive mess. Obviously this assessment is based purely on my imagination because I do not have my hands on this game, but I just can't see it happening. It moves the game away from its foundation and core.
Just needs some testing, that's all. ::)
Spy Rocket Launchers, Teleporting, Jetpacks, Hadouken, Mercs Climbing Walls.....
Really? This is a complete 180 degree turn from what I expected. It no longer seems like a realistic spy mission to secretly infiltrate an area to recover intel. It is more like a magical fantasy game.
Rocket Launcher- Have you ever heard of under-cover spies carrying a rocket launcher? I haven't. Just think- the spies do not have an idea of how many members would be at the place they are trying to enter. They would not just go blow up something because everyone would come as a gigantic raid after them. I actually cannot think of any sort of weapon that is less stealthy than a rocket launcher. What would be the point of having a shocker gun to taze the merc when you can just blow him to pieces? At that point he might as well just drop a bomb on the whole place and destroy everything. Perhaps a lethal dart gun or something like that is more appropriate if you are going to give the spy a chance to kill a merc from the distance. But even then, the merc should not have to worry about being killed from a distance. Spies should only have to kill when it is necessary, and that is when they are in direct contact and have no other choice.
Teleporting and Jetpacks- ââ,¬Å"Iââ,¬â,,¢ve got him trapped here in this room. There is no way out now.ââ,¬Â
ââ,¬Å"Oh, wait, I forgot he can just fly away.ââ,¬Â Thatââ,¬â,,¢s really cool and realistic.
Mercs Climbing Walls- What is this? Spiderman? Letââ,¬â,,¢s be sensible here, it worked in Alien vs. Predator because it was actually an Alien climbing walls not a human. Turning a merc into a superhuman monsterââ,¬Â¦that is great.
SO AS A SUMMARY: I am not sure whether these ideas are a joke or what has gotten into your heads. There are plenty of other ways to even in out without ruining the style. I may be in the minority here, but I can tell you that I would lose a lot of respect for the game. Perhaps you should have the community vote on these things if you feel that strongly about them. See what the people want, and if they agree then fine. If not then you could lose a lot of fan base.
It's obviously a joke. Your joke-detector is broken.
Quote from: frvge on March 14, 2010, 08:34:56 PM
It's obviously a joke. Your joke-detector is broken.
LOL I mentioned that it could be a joke before, but nobody ever said either way. Phew that relieved all of my worries. It is hard to have a functional joke detector when all I get is words and I can't hear the tone of your voice. :D
I'll just leave this here...
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpix.motivatedphotos.com%2F2008%2F10%2F1%2F633584502784383285-muchwin.jpg&hash=3d3a17a63066818fd2b5f04639ad629f99896742)
Quote from: CurdyMilk on March 14, 2010, 08:00:49 PM
Spy Rocket Launchers, Teleporting, Jetpacks, Hadouken, Mercs Climbing Walls.....
Really? This is a complete 180 degree turn from what I expected. It no longer seems like a realistic spy mission to secretly infiltrate an area to recover intel. It is more like a magical fantasy game.
Rocket Launcher- Have you ever heard of under-cover spies carrying a rocket launcher? I haven't. Just think- the spies do not have an idea of how many members would be at the place they are trying to enter. They would not just go blow up something because everyone would come as a gigantic raid after them. I actually cannot think of any sort of weapon that is less stealthy than a rocket launcher. What would be the point of having a shocker gun to taze the merc when you can just blow him to pieces? At that point he might as well just drop a bomb on the whole place and destroy everything. Perhaps a lethal dart gun or something like that is more appropriate if you are going to give the spy a chance to kill a merc from the distance. But even then, the merc should not have to worry about being killed from a distance. Spies should only have to kill when it is necessary, and that is when they are in direct contact and have no other choice.
Teleporting and Jetpacks- ââ,¬Å"Iââ,¬â,,¢ve got him trapped here in this room. There is no way out now.ââ,¬Â
ââ,¬Å"Oh, wait, I forgot he can just fly away.ââ,¬Â Thatââ,¬â,,¢s really cool and realistic.
Mercs Climbing Walls- What is this? Spiderman? Letââ,¬â,,¢s be sensible here, it worked in Alien vs. Predator because it was actually an Alien climbing walls not a human. Turning a merc into a superhuman monsterââ,¬Â¦that is great.
SO AS A SUMMARY: I am not sure whether these ideas are a joke or what has gotten into your heads. There are plenty of other ways to even in out without ruining the style. I may be in the minority here, but I can tell you that I would lose a lot of respect for the game. Perhaps you should have the community vote on these things if you feel that strongly about them. See what the people want, and if they agree then fine. If not then you could lose a lot of fan base.
what a knobhead. oh wait, i didn't see the post where he actually realised it was a joke, oh well my point still stands.
Quote from: I <3 U on March 14, 2010, 10:35:16 PM
what a knobhead. oh wait, i didn't see the post where he actually realised it was a joke, oh well my point still stands.
Yes I am a knobhead. :P
okay now you're a pussy as well! defend yourself motherfucker! only joking <3 you.
In an effort to get some actual discussion going, here's what I'd like to see:
Universal Change: Gadgets do not refill when you die. Spies can obtain refills by seeking out ammo boxes, which will also have an animation to put the spies at risk for doing so. Mercs can get refills via backpack.
Spy:
Smoke: Reduce slow effect to PT levels, shorten KO timer by 1 second
Chaff: No longer works through solid walls
Flashbangs: Just need to be less finicky. Mercs can't negate effect by sniping.
Sticky Cams: To start I'd like to see the KO timer be variable depending on how you knocked out the merc... a grab KO should be the longest, followed by jumping, and finally camming. Either that, or remove the KO effect altogether and just have cams slow the merc. I know this seems unfathomable right now, but I'm going off the assumption that the PS team will fix the finicky jumping and grabbing to the point where cams aren't your only realistic KO option most of the time.
Snares: Have a firing sound effect more similar to PT
Camo: Inherent gadget to the spies, completely undetectable via motion tracking. The amount of energy drain is directly proportional to your move speed.
HBS: Uses energy while in effect
Spy Bullets Remove ability for mercs to take them off each other, stationary mercs show up on radar function.
Merc:
frags: These are fine if they fix the bug, although I think 5 to start is a good number
Mines: Shorten the max laser range on laser and poison mines to PT levels
Spy Traps: These are a bit tough...there has to be some way to stop the spies from running through all of them and then removing them all in one shot. I would say make them unremovable by your partner, and spy trap timers stack. If the spy wants to sacrifice 5 minutes of the game to let the spy trap timers run out, that's his choice.
If spy traps become too unavoidable, a medium solution would be to put a cooldown on the trap removal ability, but spy traps still stack. So if you run through 3 spy traps, your partner can remove the first one but you'll still have to wait out the remaining 3:20.
backpack: Fine as-is
Gasmask: Inherent gadget to the mercs
flares: The game has a new engine, so these might prove to be useful. Still, I have my doubts considering that the mercs have a lot of inherent ways to help them see in the dark as it is. So my solution is to make them into phospho grenades...gas effect of phospho grenades takes away health over time, in addition to marking the spy when he leaves the cloud.
Tazer: Lengthen the range to an average between PT and CT, limit 5 shots. KO timer lowered to bullcharge KO time. Refillable w/ backpack.
Camnet: I'm going to preface this by saying that if camnet were removed from the game entirely, I wouldn't shed a tear. Regardless whether or not they can balance it, I think any gadget that results in the merc sitting in one spot shifting through cameras to find spies instead of walking around creates stale gameplay.
Having said that, I assume the devs are going to try to make this godforsaken gadget "work" in the game and not be incredibly overpowered or completely useless. My suggestion is this: remove special visions, remove laser. Toggling between cameras has a 2 second wind-up where the spy can see the next camera in the cycle flashing, and then has another 3 second "cool down" where you can't switch cams to another room. Coming out of camnet has a 1 second turn off animation where the merc cannot move. Times are subject to change, of course, but I think that's a good start.
Also, with these changes the teams will choose 4/7 gadgets instead of 4/8...considering that you could choose 4/6 in PT, I don't think that's unreasonable. If people don't like the decrease in choice from having a gadget "forced" on them, allowing 5/8 would definitely open the game up more.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2010, 12:14:24 AM
In an effort to get some actual discussion going, here's what I'd like to see:
Universal Change: Gadgets do not refill when you die. Spies can obtain refills by seeking out ammo boxes, which will also have an animation to put the spies at risk for doing so. Mercs can get refills via backpack.
Spy:
Smoke: Reduce slow effect to PT levels, shorten KO timer by 1 second
Chaff: No longer works through solid walls
Flashbangs: Just need to be less finicky. Mercs can't negate effect by sniping.
Sticky Cams: To start I'd like to see the KO timer be variable depending on how you knocked out the merc... a grab KO should be the longest, followed by jumping, and finally camming. Either that, or remove the KO effect altogether and just have cams slow the merc. I know this seems unfathomable right now, but I'm going off the assumption that the PS team will fix the finicky jumping and grabbing to the point where cams aren't your only realistic KO option most of the time.
Snares: Have a firing sound effect more similar to PT
Camo: Inherent gadget to the spies, completely undetectable via motion tracking. The amount of energy drain is directly proportional to your move speed.
HBS: Uses energy while in effect
Spy Bullets Remove ability for mercs to take them off each other, stationary mercs show up on radar function.
Merc:
frags: These are fine if they fix the bug, although I think 5 to start is a good number
Mines: Shorten the max laser range on laser and poison mines to PT levels
Spy Traps: These are a bit tough...there has to be some way to stop the spies from running through all of them and then removing them all in one shot. I would say make them unremovable by your partner, and spy trap timers stack. If the spy wants to sacrifice 5 minutes of the game to let the spy trap timers run out, that's his choice.
If spy traps become too unavoidable, a medium solution would be to put a cooldown on the trap removal ability, but spy traps still stack. So if you run through 3 spy traps, your partner can remove the first one but you'll still have to wait out the remaining 3:20.
backpack: Fine as-is
Gasmask: Inherent gadget to the mercs
flares: The game has a new engine, so these might prove to be useful. Still, I have my doubts considering that the mercs have a lot of inherent ways to help them see in the dark as it is. So my solution is to make them into phospho grenades...gas effect of phospho grenades takes away health over time, in addition to marking the spy when he leaves the cloud.
Tazer: Lengthen the range to an average between PT and CT, limit 5 shots. KO timer lowered to bullcharge KO time. Refillable w/ backpack.
Camnet: I'm going to preface this by saying that if camnet were removed from the game entirely, I wouldn't shed a tear. Regardless whether or not they can balance it, I think any gadget that results in the merc sitting in one spot shifting through cameras to find spies instead of walking around creates stale gameplay.
Having said that, I assume the devs are going to try to make this godforsaken gadget "work" in the game and not be incredibly overpowered or completely useless. My suggestion is this: remove special visions, remove laser. Toggling between cameras has a 2 second wind-up where the spy can see the next camera in the cycle flashing, and then has another 3 second "cool down" where you can't switch cams to another room. Coming out of camnet has a 1 second turn off animation where the merc cannot move. Times are subject to change, of course, but I think that's a good start.
Also, with these changes the teams will choose 4/7 gadgets instead of 4/8...considering that you could choose 4/6 in PT, I don't think that's unreasonable. If people don't like the decrease in choice from having a gadget "forced" on them, allowing 5/8 would definitely open the game up more.
The problem with not allowing chaff through walls is that it is impossible to get rid of some poison mines. Also use binoculars if they can actually become useful along with a trip rope for spies. IDK if it should be a teamwork gadget where one stands on either side of the doorway to hold it. This way it is less common and more surprising to the merc when it is actually being used. There that should do it.
With inherent gadget you mean they are part of the default loadout no matter what?
QuoteThe problem with not allowing chaff through walls is that it is impossible to get rid of some poison mines.
Not true. First, there are only a few spots in CT that are impassible without going through a wall, and most of them have to do with the bugged crooked lazer. It's called banking the chaff off the wall...use it. Secondly, you must've missed the part where I said to reduce the poison and laser mine range...that would pretty much take care of the rest. Third, since when does a
quick throw chaff have to be able to disable any device you put down in order to be "balanced?" Maybe it's a good thing that you can put traps and mines that avoid easy chaffing. To take your argument one step further, you're implying that the game is completely imbalanced if you don't take chaff
and bind it to one of your quick-throws. I can tell you that's completely untrue, as I only took chaff on maps where there are three lasers covering doorways and did just fine.
Failing any of that, you have 15 seconds to haul your ass to a medic station anyway, as well as partner healing.
I fail to see how chaff through walls is this hugely important "feature" that will make poison mines completely imbalanced if removed. What it will do is prevent spies from running around in plain site and spamming chaff to avoid running into proxies around the corner, and it will slow spies down a bit more when you put laser devices across doorways.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on March 15, 2010, 12:39:18 AM
With inherent gadget you mean they are part of the default loadout no matter what?
More like a default ability no matter what, bound to a different key so you don't really access it like a gadget, but sure you can think of it that way.
Spekkio, you are putting words in my mouth that were never there. All I said was that some poison mines could not be chaffed. Period. Some even when you shoot it out of the gun they could not be reached. So that means all I want is for there to be a way to remove all mines. If it involves shortening the distance like you said, then fine. I was referring to the rare instances. You act like I have not played CT before...
The way I see it, you modders will put in shit that honestly won't be used, because it won't be that useful. That's just how it is.
Yeah the more I think about it the less I have a problem with chaff's inability to go through walls. Is there a physics system in place yet? How's it going? If chaff's need to be banked off walls then there will need to be a reliable physics system.
Aside from these little questions, I think that list you made Spekkio was pretty well done.
Gadget Refill:
In saying this, do you mean that there will be Special Spy Ammo Crates? Or use the same as the Merc's?
Plus I assume you are to mean that these Ammo Crates aren't inside Spy Spawn, because if that was the case then it'd just be easier to give them a refill after death.
It seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.
Unless of course you mean to say that some Ammo/Refill Crates will be in Spy-Only reachable areas. In that case it seems pretty legit depending on mappers ability to creatively balance it.
Camo: (This is just a slight Clarification)
You say it goes by moving speed. Is that to also say that it drains while standing still too? Also in your thoughts do Actions still turn it off? (Assume both of these too be a Yes, just wanted to make sure)
QuoteSo that means all I want is for there to be a way to remove all mines.
As I pointed out, you can bank the nade off the wall, go through it and have your partner heal you, go through it and get to a health box, or go around it and remove it manually/shoot it out. That's 4 different options without using a quick-throw chaff through a wall.
Where you and I differ is that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a trap or mine that cannot be chaffed.
QuoteIn saying this, do you mean that there will be Special Spy Ammo Crates? Or use the same as the Merc's?
Same ones. Map makers will figure out where to put them. If they want to put one in spy spawn, so be it.
QuoteIt seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.
They could, but if they camp ammo then they're not camping objectives. You could also help this by having 3+ ammo crates in any given map (which I think there currently are now anyway, but I could be wrong).
And it's not like dying will remove all your gadgets...you just don't get a replenishment for what you already used. If the spy decided to run around constantly dropping smokes and trying to quick-cam around corners on his first life, then yea, he's going to have a bit of a hard time after that. But that's the spy's own fault for leaving nothing to defend himself with, not the game's. The same goes for a merc who decides to spam frags at entrance ways on your first life and then subsequently gets killed later in the game.
QuoteYou say it goes by moving speed. Is that to also say that it drains while standing still too? Also in your thoughts do Actions still turn it off? (Assume both of these too be a Yes, just wanted to make sure)
Yes and yes.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2010, 11:21:27 AM
QuoteIt seems a little unfair to force a spy to find an ammo crate after death with nothing to defend themselves with (Assuming worst case scenario: they used all of their stuff). Plus Merc's having a slight advantage if they know you used stuff... They could reasonably assume you NEED to go to an ammo crate. Thus "Camping" it.
They could, but if they camp ammo then they're not camping objectives. You could also help this by having 3+ ammo crates in any given map (which I think there currently are now anyway, but I could be wrong).
And it's not like dying will remove all your gadgets...you just don't get a replenishment for what you already used. If the spy decided to run around constantly dropping smokes and trying to quick-cam around corners on his first life, then yea, he's going to have a bit of a hard time after that. But that's the spy's own fault for leaving nothing to defend himself with, not the game's. The same goes for a merc who decides to spam frags at entrance ways on your first life and then subsequently gets killed later in the game.
The whole situation of "Where they Camp" is almost one big kind of Catch-22. Where as you are unlikely to hack a objective and get away cleanly without gadgets... You need gadgets to get ammo from the ammo camping Merc.
I say Almost because it IS possible to hack something without using Gadgets, but that's the same kind of reasoning behind saying something like, "I can also win story mode by just Killing the Mercs". You COULD, but judging by how the game was made... You shouldn't attempt it. There is a big Ol' twisty pattern of who could be doing what at what time, but it seems like Ammo Crates would be a higher commodity than the objectives at that point. Thus Merc's having to go and guard something ELSE, on top of what they are already balance out to not be able to completely protect.
Plus the glory that Spies/Merc ONLY have a set amount of stuff during a life. Whether they use it or not before their life ends is up to them. If they didn't use something... It's Gone. You wasted 4 Alarm snares, and 2 Smokes because you thought no one would see you hanging off that edge? Too Bad. You still have that balance of, "If you used all your grenades at the start of the match... You could screw yourself" also.
Sure the Spy and Merc are Balanced in the fact that they hold the same outcome for their actions, but the spy becomes near useless (Assuming the mercs aren't bad at their roles) without any gadgets (Except for Stealth!), and the Merc still has his main way to stop you...
It could work though, seeing as how the Mapper is the real person behind "How" it works. In the end I see most people opting to go the old SvM way and just putting in an Ammo Crate in the Spy Spawn though. Which begs the question, "Would Spies forget tactics to go to their spawn for more Gadgets repeatedly?"
Maybe make it an option that the server can turn on. "Death Refills Gadget Stocks: Check or Uncheck".
In the end, it would prolong matches that held spies with no Gadgets (Because stealth takes time), and perhaps give Merc's TOO much to have to cover other than the already mandatory 3/4 objectives they must protect. Since freely giving the spies gadgets because you focus on the objectives is just asking for spies to knock you out with smoke and hack stuff... Refill and Repeat.
Interesting discussion. Keep it up!
I dunno if letting spies get more ammo would be that good an idea. Trying to cover all of the ammo boxes and the NDs would be like impossible, so spies would be able to spam like crazy and just reload with barely any trouble.
Though respawning without items is kind of interesting so I guess there'd need to be some way to reload for that to work. Maybe you can only refill items once per life?
what about a spy backpack? i know it sound's stupid at first, but it would get rid of the problem noop said about defending NDs and the ammo points. The backpack would obviously hold more than the merc bp (quantity) but it wouldn't get refreshed everytime you respawned. you'd get a set number of nades, snares, whatever at the start of each game and you could refill as you pleased. The only argument i can think of is there would be too much or to little eq floating around, but obviously it all depends on how much eq is supplied to you at the start of the game. Like i said i havent really thought about it, just a suggestion.
Quote from: Ambiguous Rocket on March 15, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
I dunno if letting spies get more ammo would be that good an idea. Trying to cover all of the ammo boxes and the NDs would be like impossible, so spies would be able to spam like crazy and just reload with barely any trouble.
Though respawning without items is kind of interesting so I guess there'd need to be some way to reload for that to work. Maybe you can only refill items once per life?
It really depends on 1) how long the animation is to reload 2) how much noise it makes to reload ammo 3) how many ammo crates there are in the map 4) the location of ammo crates and 5) if refilling occurs gradually or is all-or-nothing. That's a lot of variables to consider, 3 of which depend on the developers coding and 2 depend on map makers, so I don't think it's fair to presume that it would lead to either spies having free reign over refills or mercs being able to camp ammo crates indefinitely.
Sure it's easy to think of extreme examples to support either case, but if the devs are motivated enough I think they can reach a sweet spot.
Yeah, I guess. I was kinda imagining Factory earlier, but on something like Aqua it'd actually be pretty much impossible.
I've been shot plenty of times trying to hack wall panels, I suppose. Not like they're incredibly easy. But not incredibly hard either. So it could work, yeah.