Project Stealth

I'm really concerned that ps will make the same mistakes that UBI did with the gameplay enforcing aggro (=the mercs know where the spies are but that's np) . I don't say cripple aggro, but i really think stealth should be a viable option  :-\
One thing I'm looking forward to is the better mouse implementation making it harder to get aggro necks.
Another point that disturb the gameplay imo: the merc can turn as fast as his mouse settings allow him to. So he can look behind every corner and if you creep in his back you can never be sure he won't turn in 0.001 seconds  :-\

The more options the players has, the merrier the gameplay will be  ;)

Plz discuss

Whoa, a poll. We already had a long discussion about aggro (http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php?topic=109.0).

I would like to curb merc aggro (grenading vents at the beginning of a match) by allowing spies to choose to spawn from a few spawn points on the map.

I'm aware of that. But I don't see aggro as the problem, but the lack of stealth abilities. Noone can tell me that anyone good uses camo suit against equally skilled opponents with success. We should think on the balancing of the already available gadgets before inventing new ones imo.

Btw, it's not all about making 100 vents in one map, i hate this ridiculous amount of them (compare with sc4 versus arrrrgh)...

This might sound weird, but making the game too stealty isn't fun. It's still stealth ACTION multiplayer, so it'd be a mix between SCDA's MP with Mercs running around mindlessly and the 'stupid AI' single player experience where the AI stands still.

The current balance is ok. Some things can be nerfed, but only after serious consideration and re-balancing.

Don't make Ubi's mistake:
Don't fix what's not broken.

Some of the best players I know, are stealth players that time their aggressive tactics only when necessary,  and is usually just psychological tactics like baiting a merc to weaken their defense....and not actually use any kind of neck or cam.


Withought nerfing anything,  I think these kind of tactics are entirely dependant on map design.  Compare stategies of Factory and Orphanage against  Wherehouse and Deftech.   Aggro can be used in all of these maps,  but stealth is less effective on the maps that force spies to go through the mercs.

Also take into consideration that the Splinter Cell series always gave us a variety of map designs, some favoring aggro, and others favoring stealth.  This is what makes the game balanced in the overall sense.

It is also pretty much aggreed that hardware should not give players an advantage.

If spies get any kind of help for stealth, it should be in the form of new moves...like DA escape moves, vertical wall climb ability (shadow of colossus style),  inverted neck snap.  We really dont want to take away or try to re-balance the game.

um lol im not saying you suck but hello?! you have ever seen any of the best stealth players moves? they owned everyone with camo etc.. i can use camo but i rahter just stealth it with chaff bang heart and cam.. you do not need to change any of that.. its either you go aggro or stealth, actually sometimes you must go both so idk i do not agree with changing that 8)

live2die, probably you have never tried that against decent opponents. Stealth only works at rare times (and on orph ;D) because of the ridiculous amount of vents, and vents are bad for the gameplay because the mercs can't intereact with the spies there (compare with sc4 versus...). It's only an emergency solution, because the stealth gadgets are too weak. Camo has not much use versus people with high resolutions and eax. So does hiding in the shadows (red view etc). You can ask every pro out there, none of them plays real stealth against equally skilled opponents with good map knowledge, cam net skills, loud earphones etc. It's all about confusion (so the mercs make mistakes) and teamplay (making use of the mistakes), but sneaking past the mercs is nearly impossible. And no, I don't want that stealth only pwns. It would be quite boring for the mercs.
Regarding map design, I want to see more vertical maps with fewer central camping points for the mercs, but also less vents (parcour movements could work out just fine). 8)
Furthermore, I wanna see the high resolution vantages and the eax problem fixed (you can hear through the whole map atm  ::)). The red view should not work as night vision (and not detect a crouching spy 100m behind you), and the power of the emf vision is quite ridiculous (most pros use it about 50% of the game, and it works like a wall hack not only in zoom).
Why does every1 complain about aggro neck breaking???  With the fluid aiming we will get, it will be even easier to counter as it is now. Imo we should add to the gameplay by making stealth easier and more effective, because right now aggro is the choice for most players as it's much easier and reliable to pull off >:(
I know that it's really really hard to balance out well, but atm the mercs win most the time, so little vantages for the spies should be np. No1 of you is against new moves, so why are you against better stealth gadgets? Imo theres no need of a wifi hacking tool and all this stuff, just change what we have and love  ;)

lmao u can ask every pro there? i am a pro buddy.. anyways w.e you say you sometimes must go both and i do stealth against equal as me lol you can ask every pro out there ;D makes me laugh idk why okay i understand your point some people play differently my xfire is operton come and face me and see how i play :P

We have plenty of talk on what to change in this game.  But our current goal is a clone in gameplay.  That alone is a very high standard for us to achieve.  The game will look different..but all gadgets will be there.

If we can clone the game, we will have enough experience to then IMPROVE the game.


We will of course adress known problems of CT and some slight tweaking if it really needs it.

Whats exactly is EAX bug? ???

pc community lol?  :D :D anyways do you even know what eax is? in case you do not eax is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAX_mode. In other words with eax you can hear things like the spies moving on the other side of the map and you can hear mines perfectly. Eax bug is when your sound just shuts off and for me does not come back until i restart scct. I think this is the eax bug but it used to happen to me.

If you lower the complete requirement of smoke and chaff grenades, spies will actually bring the equipment they want, not ones they need. I think this would make spies use equipment more and make the game more strategic.

Quote from: LiVe.To.Di3 on April 15, 2007, 07:29:04 PM:D :D anyways do you even know what eax is? in case you do not eax is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAX_mode. In other words with eax you can hear things like the spies moving on the other side of the map and you can hear mines perfectly. Eax bug is when your sound just shuts off and for me does not come back until i restart scct. I think this is the eax bug but it used to happen to me.

i know what EAX is. Dunno, never had that problem, oh once but it seems it had something to do with enhanced reality button

and you sure your link talks about the same EAX we are talking about...

nothing is funny.. and i think eax is what it says on the link

wow u must be smart then, i honestly didn't understand s*** what it says there, then i checked this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_audio_extensions explanations there was way better, but what  do i know...

Lol, he is right. Your link goes to the cryptological EAX. Since I doubt you're in higher cryptoanalytical studies , eltudee's link about sound is probably more right than yours.

I count 9 votes but it says:
Total Voters: 4 Odd

"You may only select up to 5 options."
So you can vote for more than 1 thing.

Quote from: Gawain on April 14, 2007, 05:01:44 PM
One thing I'm looking forward to is the better mouse implementation making it harder to get aggro necks.
Another point that disturb the gameplay imo: the merc can turn as fast as his mouse settings allow him to. So he can look behind every corner and if you creep in his back you can never be sure he won't turn in 0.001 seconds  :-\

The more options the players has, the merrier the gameplay will be  ;)

Well keep in mind that the slower the merc turns, the more of a benefit aggro has.

If you want to increase stealth aspect of a merc searching every corner, then you probably should throw in a motion blur if you turn quickly, so it's rather difficult for a merc to be constantly spinning around checking every angle, at least not without his screen getting pretty blurry (though for close up objects, like an aggroing spy, it'll work fine).

Having played on xbox and PC, The PC instant turning and mouse aim heavily favors the mercenary and reduces the effectiveness of aggro quite a bit. I think that's a good thing. If you really wanted to enforce a turning speed cap in the name of making it harder for the merc to scan his surroundings, then you'll need to add some kind of anti-aggro enhancement too, like a merc lock-on that he can activate to constantly face a visible spy, so the spy can't simply run past him and grab before the merc can turn around.

I fully approve to you. So we should get the blurry thing, and emf view should work as it was meant to eg like on 640*480  :P
Imo the main problem with stealth is EAX and the vantages of high resolutions, we should fix this first and see how the balance works out.

CT is hardly an aggro-fest.

I only use complete aggro as a fast method to take down players who suck shit at the game.

I don't think we're meaning the same when speaking about "aggro". Aggro = don't care that the merc knows where you are and what you are doing. For example, running around the whole map (and past the mercs for access to the back of the map like hifi on river mall) and keeping distance to the mercs by tazering them and spamming smokes. This is what most "good" players do, it requires skill, but after all it's pretty boring at least to me and surely not the way the game was meant to be played.

I'd call that rushing for the obj.

Yeah, aggro doesn't have to be about getting necks. Anytime you aren't caring about giving away your position, you're playing an aggro style. The game is no longer really about concealing yourself or playing stealthy, but now simply about run and gun tactics. That's what aggro is.

It doesn't matter if your goal happens to be hacking or snapping necks. If you give no concern to concealing yourself, you're playing aggro.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 17, 2007, 09:07:18 PM
Yeah, aggro doesn't have to be about getting necks. Anytime you aren't caring about giving away your position, you're playing an aggro style. The game is no longer really about concealing yourself or playing stealthy, but now simply about run and gun tactics. That's what aggro is.

It doesn't matter if your goal happens to be hacking or snapping necks. If you give no concern to concealing yourself, you're playing aggro.

^^which is an incredibly valid and effective tactic when your partner is stealthing his way past a camping merc. 
this is why we dont want to change the gameplay...both tactics are fun effective when mixed. And UBI intended for both.   Spies are required to use aggro tactics within the gameplay (anyone remember sabotage mode from PT?).

What is so incredibly difficult, is organized teamwork...because stealth really needs a partner that can bait the merc out of position.

everything is good lol you do not need to change anything

Stealth is not useless, it's just overrated.
You cannot win a map without having a single conflict.
If you could, mercs would be bored to death.

And of course everyone would like to see EAX super ears fixed.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 15, 2007, 09:10:50 PM
If you lower the complete requirement of smoke and chaff grenades, spies will actually bring the equipment they want, not ones they need. I think this would make spies use equipment more and make the game more strategic.

It got stuck between an EAX argument, people might have missed it. Discuss!

Quote from: Overstatement on April 15, 2007, 09:10:50 PM
If you lower the complete requirement of smoke and chaff grenades, spies will actually bring the equipment they want, not ones they need. I think this would make spies use equipment more and make the game more strategic.

Indeed.  :D
In most cases, spam hast few to nothing to do with skill, and a  game enforcing spam at competitive level gets very boring very fast (e.g. cnc3 tib. wars right now, it's all about tankspam) :-\

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 12:14:46 PM
It got stuck between an EAX argument, people might have missed it. Discuss!

EAX sux my balls ::)  You got the same super hearing in bf...

Btw, another idea to make stealth more effective, but this time when it's done with teamplay: Make the gun much louder and decrease the hearing of the merc for a while after some shots (try standing at a shooting range without ear protection and you will know what i mean) 8)

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 12:14:46 PM

Quote from: Overstatement on April 15, 2007, 09:10:50 PM
If you lower the complete requirement of smoke and chaff grenades, spies will actually bring the equipment they want, not ones they need. I think this would make spies use equipment more and make the game more strategic.

It got stuck between an EAX argument, people might have missed it. Discuss!

Uh, I don't need smoke, neither do lots of people.
Chaff is not required so much because of the map's passive defences, but because of the merc's mines and traps. It's meant as a counter to those gadgets, just as much gasmask is meant as a counter to smoke nades and cams. So theoretically, if mercs don't take mines and traps, spies wouldn't need chaff.
In reality, a merc always has mines. So spies (nearly)always carry chaff. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I said you need or even NEED smoke in your games, I did not say you need them. Sure, I don't need smoke but I do need it if I want to survive running away from the merc. Their guns are just too strong and are probably designed to assume the spy has smoke. Yes, I have tried to play some games without smoke and they didn't work out. I'm sure a lot of other people need smoke too, I've not played many people who don't use smoke.

I bring chaff almost always to disable those mines that you just can't get to. You know, the ones that even if you knew they were there, you could not get past it. You would think spies would be clever enough to slowly reach into the window and remove that mine, but no, they got to skip over the window ledge and blow up. There are just too many places on maps where mines can completely block a passage for a spy without chaff. It's almost a map exploit and probably a tactic the developers didn't have in mind.

I usually take chaff and flash. No smoke for me ;-)

I'm sure your partners appreciate you encouraging mercs to become MT whores.

No smoke for me either.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PM
I said you need or even NEED smoke in your games, I did not say you need them. Sure, I don't need smoke but I do need it if I want to survive running away from the merc. Their guns are just too strong and are probably designed to assume the spy has smoke. Yes, I have tried to play some games without smoke and they didn't work out. I'm sure a lot of other people need smoke too, I've not played many people who don't use smoke.

You can escape a merc just as effectively without smoke. All you do is shock and dive for cover. Furthermore, both MT and EMF can counter smoke to a degree, and with gasmask being present, you can't really expect to slow a merc down all that much. I only use smoke on Missile Strike and Aquarius, because of the tight quarters, all the rest of the maps I either do with flash/chaff or chaff only. I don't NEED it.
As for smoke being used as defence against the merc's strong guns - I actually started using flash as a counter to the uzi+lag combination. Smoke just doesn't cut because most players just laser your ass, MT you or whatever.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMThere are just too many places on maps where mines can completely block a passage for a spy without chaff. It's almost a map exploit and probably a tactic the developers didn't have in mind.

Nuh-huh, they DID have it in mind, because they made chaff so it would affect stuff THROUGH WALLS. That wasn't so in PT.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMI'm sure your partners appreciate you encouraging mercs to become MT whores.

What the frag are you on about, mercs would use MT with or without smoke being present.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM
You can escape a merc just as effectively without smoke. All you do is shock and dive for cover. Furthermore, both MT and EMF can counter smoke to a degree, and with gasmask being present, you can't really expect to slow a merc down all that much. I only use smoke on Missile Strike and Aquarius, because of the tight quarters, all the rest of the maps I either do with flash/chaff or chaff only. I don't NEED it.
As for smoke being used as defence against the merc's strong guns - I actually started using flash as a counter to the uzi+lag combination. Smoke just doesn't cut because most players just laser your ass, MT you or whatever.

We could debate this all day. I think a poll might be more effective.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMThere are just too many places on maps where mines can completely block a passage for a spy without chaff. It's almost a map exploit and probably a tactic the developers didn't have in mind.

Nuh-huh, they DID have it in mind, because they made chaff so it would affect stuff THROUGH WALLS. That wasn't so in PT.

So you agree that setting up mines in places that spies can't get to without chaff is good and reaching over something or below the vent your sitting in to remove mines is a bad idea?

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMI'm sure your partners appreciate you encouraging mercs to become MT whores.

What the frag are you on about, mercs would use MT with or without smoke being present.

I was talking about using flash all the time. Only counter to flash is MT, EMF or looking away. Not sure what you guys do today but back when, most of us had enough morals to not be in MT all the time. It was unethical.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 01:53:29 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM
You can escape a merc just as effectively without smoke. All you do is shock and dive for cover. Furthermore, both MT and EMF can counter smoke to a degree, and with gasmask being present, you can't really expect to slow a merc down all that much. I only use smoke on Missile Strike and Aquarius, because of the tight quarters, all the rest of the maps I either do with flash/chaff or chaff only. I don't NEED it.
As for smoke being used as defence against the merc's strong guns - I actually started using flash as a counter to the uzi+lag combination. Smoke just doesn't cut because most players just laser your ass, MT you or whatever.

We could debate this all day. I think a poll might be more effective.

Not really... I'm right, you're wrong.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 01:53:29 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMThere are just too many places on maps where mines can completely block a passage for a spy without chaff. It's almost a map exploit and probably a tactic the developers didn't have in mind.

Nuh-huh, they DID have it in mind, because they made chaff so it would affect stuff THROUGH WALLS. That wasn't so in PT.

So you agree that setting up mines in places that spies can't get to without chaff is good and reaching over something or below the vent your sitting in to remove mines is a bad idea?

Duh! That's the idea behind mines and traps in the first place. To slow spies down by forcing them to take alternate routes or just by taking a helluva time to remove them. Chaff allows spies to pass by traps faster but it gives their position away. Now doesn't that even out?

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 01:53:29 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 01:20:24 AM

Quote from: Overstatement on April 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PMI'm sure your partners appreciate you encouraging mercs to become MT whores.

What the frag are you on about, mercs would use MT with or without smoke being present.

I was talking about using flash all the time. Only counter to flash is MT, EMF or looking away. Not sure what you guys do today but back when, most of us had enough morals to not be in MT all the time. It was unethical.

LOL? You're not saying that when I take flashbangs I am PROVOKING a merc to become an MT whore? Please, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

Are you Braiog?

He's definitely as annoying as Braiog.....

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
Not really... I'm right, you're wrong.

Ok.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
Duh! That's the idea behind mines and traps in the first place. To slow spies down by forcing them to take alternate routes or just by taking a helluva time to remove them. Chaff allows spies to pass by traps faster but it gives their position away. Now doesn't that even out?

To slow them down by looking around slowly to find mines. Not slow them down by making them take a detour because they didn't bring chaff.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
LOL? You're not saying that when I take flashbangs I am PROVOKING a merc to become an MT whore? Please, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

It was a joke that wasn't even directed at you. But then I had to explain it which made it unfunny which apparently made it funny in a different way.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
Are you Braiog?

No, see (http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php?action=profile;u=57)?

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 03:21:45 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
Duh! That's the idea behind mines and traps in the first place. To slow spies down by forcing them to take alternate routes or just by taking a helluva time to remove them. Chaff allows spies to pass by traps faster but it gives their position away. Now doesn't that even out?

To slow them down by looking around slowly to find mines. Not slow them down by making them take a detour because they didn't bring chaff.

Slow them down looking for mines? Like yeah, it takes a whooping 0.3 seconds to turn heat vision on and check the doorway for lasers. You can hear proxies while freely moving around.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that looking for mines takes a lot of time.

0.3 seconds of stopping for every room you're in is a lot of time. And you're also forgetting the time it takes to remove the mines without chaff (for stealth). You sure won't be running through hallways without blowing yourself up.

Edit: I know you're exaggerating but 0.3 seconds is the average time it takes for a person to blink.

its hard what you choose. Some people have different eq. I sometimes use bang and smoke but then in museum when you are standing at a corner near cafe the merces always team up and snipe at you. I also take chaff and bang, which stops me from fighting unless the other spy has smoke and helps me.

i thought it was 0.03s, but nevermind.

Some of you guys seem to have no idea how to use flashbangs properly. The best use of them is directly after tazering when the merc has no vision running (chaffed merc works, too). Sometimes they also kick people out of the sniper mode (I'm afraif only sometimes). Smoke is by far more effective, because the gas mask runs out very quickly (most annoying aggro strat besides host going for necks is spamming smokes and cams the whole game, you have absolutely no chance against it but committing suicide for new eq)

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
LOL? You're not saying that when I take flashbangs I am PROVOKING a merc to become an MT whore? Please, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

Actually, flashbangs do really encourage people to MT whore. Not that it's the primary reason, mind you, but it's just an added incentive that I happen to be immune to flash while in MT as well as getting all the good benefits of MT.

Against a flash guy I tend to never take MT/EMF off, at all.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 11:58:21 AM
0.3 seconds of stopping for every room you're in is a lot of time.

You can't cover every room with traps, they are limited.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 19, 2007, 11:58:21 AMAnd you're also forgetting the time it takes to remove the mines without chaff (for stealth). You sure won't be running through hallways without blowing yourself up.

No I'm not. From the beginning I have claimed that chaff is there for quick disposal of traps, but in turn - it gives your position away to the mercs. If you don't have chaff you are either slowed down tremendously, or you are forced to take a detour. You, on the other hand, are the one who claimed that chaff shouldn't be needed in doorways and that mines should only slow spies down by forcing them to look for them. Am I wrong?
What does that have to do with you claiming that spies OMGNEED smoke and chaff? Nothing.
You take smoke because it fits your (aggro) playstyle.
You take chaff because you want to neuter the merc's ability to slow you down with traps and mines.

If you don't take smoke, you have to rely on cover. There is plenty of it around the maps.
If you don't take chaff you'd better have snares in that slot, because you will be walking around a lot.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 19, 2007, 07:17:11 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 02:59:48 AM
LOL? You're not saying that when I take flashbangs I am PROVOKING a merc to become an MT whore? Please, don't pull arguments out of your ass.

Actually, flashbangs do really encourage people to MT whore. Not that it's the primary reason, mind you, but it's just an added incentive that I happen to be immune to flash while in MT as well as getting all the good benefits of MT.

Against a flash guy I tend to never take MT/EMF off, at all.

If a player is visionwhoring, my flashbangs can't really force him to do more of that. Anyway, I only flash a person after I have shocked them, if they are in a chaff field or if they are sniping me.

"And ode to players using flashbangs:
You bitches are the root of all Evil
You used flashes
And now the mercs use MT
Because of you
Because of you
Because noone ever figured to press F1
Before you blinded them with a flashbang"

Yes, I am saying that anyone, who claims that flashbangs encourage MT whoring, is an idiot.

rofl lol ;D

I know that when I drop a smoke, they'll snipe me with MT. I know if I don't drop smoke, they'll snipe me.

With flashbang, I counter the sniping, which gives me enough time to get to cover. They've already seen me, so I am not really bothered by the MT.

I also Flash only when I shock them or am almost sure they dont have visions on (hurray for chaff).

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM
You can't cover every room with traps, they are limited.

But the spy doesn't know where they are. He'll have to look around all the time.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM
No I'm not. From the beginning I have claimed that chaff is there for quick disposal of traps, but in turn - it gives your position away to the mercs. If you don't have chaff you are either slowed down tremendously, or you are forced to take a detour. You, on the other hand, are the one who claimed that chaff shouldn't be needed in doorways and that mines should only slow spies down by forcing them to look for them. Am I wrong?
What does that have to do with you claiming that spies OMGNEED smoke and chaff? Nothing.
You take smoke because it fits your (aggro) playstyle.
You take chaff because you want to neuter the merc's ability to slow you down with traps and mines.

Yeah, I'm saying chaff should be used as a quick way to disable traps. But I disagree on needing chaff to completely enable a passage (everyone mines the exits of hall in clubhouse and you can't get it without chaff). I'm saying spies need choice, bring chaff if you want it for quick removal, bring something else if you think that slot could be used for something more useful.

I don't aggro, I usually run away from mercs. Smoke make lets mercs waste time to turn on MT (btw if you blink in 0.03 seconds, you should be able to blink 33 times per second if you try), shoot at a box on the screen rather than a figure, prevents them from chasing and maybe waste a nade. Much better than a flash which wastes a second going back to snipe mode and an after image which doesn't distract most snipers.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM
If you don't take smoke, you have to rely on cover. There is plenty of it around the maps.
If you don't take chaff you'd better have snares in that slot, because you will be walking around a lot.

I rely on cover (stuff that block your mine of sight with the merc, not counting vents) even with smoke. But cover is often too low, not in the direction of that vent you want to retreat to and filled with places to put traps.

Why would no chaff cause you to walk more?

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM
If a player is visionwhoring, my flashbangs can't really force him to do more of that. Anyway, I only flash a person after I have shocked them, if they are in a chaff field or if they are sniping me.

"And ode to players using flashbangs:
You bitches are the root of all Evil
You used flashes
And now the mercs use MT
Because of you
Because of you
Because noone ever figured to press F1
Before you blinded them with a flashbang"

Yes, I am saying that anyone, who claims that flashbangs encourage MT whoring, is an idiot.

I'm not going to argue this because my original comment was not intened to be take seriously.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 12:14:01 AM

Yeah, I'm saying chaff should be used as a quick way to disable traps. But I disagree on needing chaff to completely enable a passage (everyone mines the exits of hall in clubhouse and you can't get it without chaff).

So you disagree on mines being able to completely block out a passage aswell? Then why would one need mines in the first place?(especially laser mines, poinson mines and spytraps). That's right, anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

For fierce battles, take it to sclamers (button lower left part of the footer).

The detailed ins and outs of gadgets dont seem to be relevant on the gameplay for ProjectStealth in general.

Detailed analysis will be done, but not at the current time.

Quote from: frvge on April 20, 2007, 12:42:52 AM
For fierce battles, take it to sclamers (button lower left part of the footer).

The detailed ins and outs of gadgets dont seem to be relevant on the gameplay for ProjectStealth in general.

Detailed analysis will be done, but not at the current time.

Noooo, we're down to one point. It's almost over.

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 12:37:40 AM
So you disagree on mines being able to completely block out a passage aswell? Then why would one need mines in the first place?(especially laser mines, poinson mines and spytraps). That's right, anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

Laser stuff are to get rid of the noise that proxy stuff make. So instead of passively hearing a mine, the spy would need to actively press f2 to see it. And put laser stuff in all the doorways you'd like (that's what the lasers are for), just don't make it impossible, at the steepest angle to the doorway, for me to shoot it off with my gun or roll over it with Q.

So why the hell would I waste a laser mine on a dooway if the spy can just ROLL over it?
That's right, I wouldn't. I would either hope that the spy doesn't have chaff, or depend on the fact that the spy would reveal themselves when they chaff the doorway. That's pretty much how the game works and noone seems to have a problem with it, except for honorable people who have stopped playing 2 years ago.

You would rely on placing your mines in good and not overused positions so that the spy never knows that the mine was there. If a spy could see it, they should be able to defuse it.

For playing CT, I don't have a problem with it. For designing a new game and making it more strategic, I would remove it for my original reason that spies would depend more on gadgets.

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM

Yes, I am saying that anyone, who claims that flashbangs encourage MT whoring, is an idiot.

Any advantage you hand out to people who use MT over people who use standard vision encourages them to keep on MT. That's basic deductive reasoning, and anybody who doesn't get that is an idiot.

It's much easier to just drop a flash with a quick key than it is to shock the merc and then flash him. While you're trying to shock the merc, he's probably shooting you. Play against a good sniper and you could be taken out with a quick head shot while you're trying to get a shot off on the merc. Compared to a flashbang that you can just drop while running away, It's pretty obvious which is easier to pull off in a game.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 01:25:29 AM
You would rely on placing your mines in good and not overused positions so that the spy never knows that the mine was there. If a spy could see it, they should be able to defuse it.

It's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is. This means that every doorway would be treated as an overused position.
If I waste a slot for spytraps and sacrifice my backpack, I would want that to mean something. It does in CT - for the 47th time, it either slows a spy down, forces them to take a detour or forces them to reveal their position by chaffing my trap.
If in that new and "more strategic game" he is able to remove my trap(the trap that I have wasted an equipment slot for) without sacrificing any of his own equipment, would you call that balanced?
Furthermore, once the spy has taken their detour they can easily remove or shoot out the trap from the other side so that it doesn't block their(or their teammate's) passage when they respawn. Sure, I can replace it if I'm not busy chasing someone but it's still -1 trap.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 20, 2007, 03:50:51 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 19, 2007, 08:38:28 PM

Yes, I am saying that anyone, who claims that flashbangs encourage MT whoring, is an idiot.

Any advantage you hand out to people who use MT over people who use standard vision encourages them to keep on MT. That's basic deductive reasoning, and anybody who doesn't get that is an idiot.

Boohoo.
People started using MT because it can detect a fly farting a mile away and it gives them nightvision on top of that. Noone cares about flashbangs. Go ahead and ask the next MT whore you see online:
"Hey, honest question - what's the primary reason you have MT on all the time?".
I am willing to bet that noone will ever answer "because you have flashbangs".

Basic... deductive... reasoning...

the sad truth is that smoke > flash in scct :-\
and mines or spytraps don't delay a good spy much, but the other eq like tazer, flares etc is just so ridiculous weak that mines are your best choice -.-

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
It's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is. This means that every doorway would be treated as an overused position.

No way. There are lots of doorways and too few traps in a game. According to your logic, every spy would check narrow corridors for proxys, narrow corriders with hidden places for lasers, just about everywhere for poisons and any other positions that would logically have a trap. You would never get a kill with traps.

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
If I waste a slot for spytraps and sacrifice my backpack, I would want that to mean something. It does in CT - for the 47th time, it either slows a spy down, forces them to take a detour or forces them to reveal their position by chaffing my trap.

For the 47th response, I agree with the first and last points (blowing up mines also gives away positions) so stop bringing those up.

Bringing mines would mean something. How much it means depends on how you use them. The efficiency of every merc equipment is based on the effectivness of how you use them. You don't get a kill with every nade, you don't spot a spy with every camnet camera, you don't shock a spy with every taze but it does depend on how good you use them. Therefore, place a mine in a good place, get kills just like launch a nade in a good place will also get you kills. Bad usage brings nothing so why would you expect mines to ALWAYS do one of the three things you listed?

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
If in that new and "more strategic game" he is able to remove my trap(the trap that I have wasted an equipment slot for) without sacrificing any of his own equipment, would you call that balanced?

There are lots of ways to remove traps without using a spy's equipment that you don't have a problem with (see: your next point). Apparently, you think the spy has to earn it. Shouldn't the simple act of spotting (whether through vigilance or bad mine placement) the mine be enough? This is a game of intelligence (the information kind, not referring to the brain kind).

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
Furthermore, once the spy has taken their detour they can easily remove or shoot out the trap from the other side so that it doesn't block their(or their teammate's) passage when they respawn. Sure, I can replace it if I'm not busy chasing someone but it's still -1 trap.

It doesn't have to be invincible to be overpowered.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 08:25:43 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
It's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is. This means that every doorway would be treated as an overused position.

No way. There are lots of doorways and too few traps in a game. According to your logic, every spy would check narrow corridors for proxys, narrow corriders with hidden places for lasers, just about everywhere for poisons and any other positions that would logically have a trap. You would never get a kill with traps.

Uh yes, when was the last time you played vs good spies? They very rarely die from traps, most oftenly if you chase them into the mine and they don't have time to react. Most of the time it just forces them to reveal their location while trying to counter them.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 08:25:43 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
If I waste a slot for spytraps and sacrifice my backpack, I would want that to mean something. It does in CT - for the 47th time, it either slows a spy down, forces them to take a detour or forces them to reveal their position by chaffing my trap.

For the 47th response, I agree with the first and last points (blowing up mines also gives away positions) so stop bringing those up.

Bringing mines would mean something. How much it means depends on how you use them. The efficiency of every merc equipment is based on the effectivness of how you use them. You don't get a kill with every nade, you don't spot a spy with every camnet camera, you don't shock a spy with every taze but it does depend on how good you use them. Therefore, place a mine in a good place, get kills just like launch a nade in a good place will also get you kills. Bad usage brings nothing so why would you expect mines to ALWAYS do one of the three things you listed?

And what are you arguing here anyway? That placing mines in doorways is bad usage?

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 08:25:43 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
If in that new and "more strategic game" he is able to remove my trap(the trap that I have wasted an equipment slot for) without sacrificing any of his own equipment, would you call that balanced?

There are lots of ways to remove traps without using a spy's equipment that you don't have a problem with (see: your next point). Apparently, you think the spy has to earn it. Shouldn't the simple act of spotting (whether through vigilance or bad mine placement) the mine be enough? This is a game of intelligence (the information kind, not referring to the brain kind).

Duh! If the spy didn't bring chaff, they should expect that they wouldn't be able to freeroam about the map. Yes, they should deserve the oppurtunity to remove a mine then and no, spotting the trap is not even barely enough. Pfffff, if all a spy needed to do is spot the damn things, they would be extremely useless. (good)Spies constantly check around with Thermal and no, it doesn't take time at all.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 20, 2007, 08:25:43 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 20, 2007, 09:24:28 AM
Furthermore, once the spy has taken their detour they can easily remove or shoot out the trap from the other side so that it doesn't block their(or their teammate's) passage when they respawn. Sure, I can replace it if I'm not busy chasing someone but it's still -1 trap.

It doesn't have to be invincible to be overpowered.

It doesn't have to be overpowered if you die to it a lot.

Quote from: Gawain on April 20, 2007, 03:44:28 PM
the sad truth is that smoke > flash in scct :-\

No it's not. It's opinion-based. I prefer flash over smoke. There you go. Spies have a choice.

Hi, my name is Spekkio, aka Honeycomb.Ck. I was pointed here by my friend SaS-Valserp. Some of you may not know me, so allow me to point you to my credentials:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3651075192/m/2871068164/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3651075192/m/2871068164/p/1)

Hopefully the fact that Lochang aka Raisinbran.Ck and I finished 2nd in the tourney is enough to convince those of you who don't know me that I am a "good player." If it's not enough, feel free to add me on xfire (spekkio9) and I will gladly play own you.

Having said that, reading this thread and its replies is a huge mindfuck (*exceptions to: Valserp, goodkebab, frvge). The very nature of the poll is flat-out wrong. Why? Well, let's look at the teams that went deep into the tourney and how they played most of the time:

Team Retribution: about half and half, depended on the map.
Team Ethereal: Almost 100% stealthy
SaS: Majority stealthy
Cereal Killers: Mostly stealthy

The notion that "stealth can't win against good players" is absurd. That is, of course, unless your definition of "stealth" is taking 3 minutes to get to an objective and complaining that a merc happens to be guarding it. If that's the case, then you need to learn to play the game. What the OP and the others in this thread (exception to the above names again) really want is for goodkebab and the other makers of project stealth to cater game to their n00bishness, since getting better at the game is clearly out of the question. As Kebab and some other pointed out, certain maps force more aggro play than others. If you don't like it, then don't play those maps.

It seems like the thread has shifted to people n00bs whining about mines and spy traps. Allow me to divulge our spy equipment on most maps:

Lochang: Flash, snares, cams, HB sensor
Me: Smoke, snares, cams, bullets
(and just if you're wondering, our merc equipment on most maps):
Lo: Backpack, mines, spy traps, gasmask
Me: Frags, mines, camnet or spy traps, gasmask

Do you see chaff anywhere in there? I thought not. Yet we still won. How could that be? Because it's not that hard to get past mines and traps. Most people take double-backpack, so you have a whopping 6 mines to worry about that are spread about the map, and the most commonly used mine makes a loud fucking beeping sound for you to hear it. Besides, all the "good" spots to hide them are exhausted by now (which of course makes it fun to place mines in "noob" spots to catch people by surprise, but that's for another discussion). Laser mines are useless unless the spy is sleeping, mostly thanks to the explosion collision not going around walls, and your partner can heal you if you run into a poison (alternatively, 95% of the time you can run to a healthpack in time if you're not being shot at). Spy traps can be removed by your partner. If figuring out how to get around mines and traps is too difficult for you, you could always bring chaff and disable them. There is not one trap or mine that is impossible to get around given that you have multiple passages, a gadget to disable them, and your partner can nullify the effects of some of them. Not a single one.

Mines and traps are a big part of what make the game fun. It's a way for the mercs to customize their defense, which keeps the game more fresh than always having the same static defenses everywhere. It also keeps the game balanced because without them, the spies could just run around the map freely with no worries at all like in SCDA.

Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction). But your buddy Spekkio seems to feel differently, even praising the effect that mines slow down the spy a whole lot and that without them, bad things will happen to the gameplay. Sure, he says mines are ineffective at killing but their other effects alone are apparently worth bringing mines, spytraps and backpacks as merc.

Quote
Duh! If the spy didn't bring chaff, they should expect that they wouldn't be able to freeroam about the map. Yes, they should deserve the oppurtunity to remove a mine then and no, spotting the trap is not even barely enough. Pfffff, if all a spy needed to do is spot the damn things, they would be extremely useless. (good)Spies constantly check around with Thermal and no, it doesn't take time at all.

In what way? The spy without chaff deserves the opportunity?


Spekkio: Let's summerize your post into a few sentences. "My partner is my replacement to chaff. Poison, laser mines or spy traps unreachable? I don't have to disable it, my partner will heal/unspy me." Respecfully, I don't play with a partner and neither do 90% (tweak this value to whatever you'd like) of the people I see online. As a game designer, is it so wrong to cater to 90% of your playing audience while keeping the direction of gameplay alive?

Most of the time Lochang and I aren't together. We usually go around the traps. Like I said, if that's too much for you, you always have the option to bring chaff.

As a matter of fact, LoChang doesn't play the game anymore, and when I join random servers I still rarely take chaff. With people in "pubs" taking 2x Backpack, there aren't enough mines about the map to have to worry about needing chaff. Even when playing with randoms, typing in "heal me" usually gets a "ok" out of people.

QuoteValserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

If you think that I'm for restricting the placement of mines in certain places, you are mistaken. I'm actually in favor of loosening the placement abilities back to PT style in which you were able to place them higher. I'm also in favor of giving mercs back 5 spy traps and vertical spy traps (at a cost of a nerf to the range of the laser).

QuoteAs a game designer, is it so wrong to cater to 90% of your playing audience while keeping the direction of gameplay alive?

You could argue that this is a big reason that SvM never took off in the first place. When you have a small team size, ie 2 or 3 people, then the gameplay is going to rely much more heavily on teamwork than 6v6 or 8v8 or whatever. Most people don't want to bother...they just want to get online, relax, and that's it.

If you are going to simplify the game so that people don't need to work together as much, then you ruin what gives SvM its depth. That's going to turn everyone on these forums off. Quite frankly, "mindless monkey games" are a dime a dozen, so I'd prefer to have the depth at a cost to popularity.

we obviously cannot make a game that caters to the Half Life, Unreal, Battlefield, or CS style of gameplay.

Those games focus on fast paced but anonymous gameplay with a large number of players on one server.  Its really has a lot of chaos and is impersonal....and not nearly as emotional and intense in the end.  You can join-quit the server at anytime as well and there is no real feeling of commitment.  For a mass audience, this is an advantage...but CT style of game cannot be like that, and still be what it is now.

affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

@spekkio: why don't you use camo? maybe because it sux? i think it's kinda exotic that both of you have snares, will try this out :D
btw, i never said that mines and traps (lol) are op and that you need chaff to get around them. don't be so arrogant ::)

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:58:16 AM

QuoteAs a game designer, is it so wrong to cater to 90% of your playing audience while keeping the direction of gameplay alive?

You could argue that this is a big reason that SvM never took off in the first place. When you have a small team size, ie 2 or 3 people, then the gameplay is going to rely much more heavily on teamwork than 6v6 or 8v8 or whatever. Most people don't want to bother...they just want to get online, relax, and that's it.

If you are going to simplify the game so that people don't need to work together as much, then you ruin what gives SvM its depth. That's going to turn everyone on these forums off. Quite frankly, "mindless monkey games" are a dime a dozen, so I'd prefer to have the depth at a cost to popularity.

I agree with Spekkio. If we turn the game into a BF2, CS, or any other game like those, we'll be doing exactly what Ubisoft did with DA.

Quote from: Gawain on April 21, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.


goodkebeb: you are completely overacting on what I said. It was quite surprising.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:58:16 AM
Most of the time Lochang and I aren't together. We usually go around the traps. Like I said, if that's too much for you, you always have the option to bring chaff.

As a matter of fact, LoChang doesn't play the game anymore, and when I join random servers I still rarely take chaff. With people in "pubs" taking 2x Backpack, there aren't enough mines about the map to have to worry about needing chaff. Even when playing with randoms, typing in "heal me" usually gets a "ok" out of people.

Sorry, I only know what you type and you typed like you depend on your partner a lot.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:58:16 AMIf you think that I'm for restricting the placement of mines in certain places, you are mistaken. I'm actually in favor of loosening the placement abilities back to PT style in which you were able to place them higher. I'm also in favor of giving mercs back 5 spy traps and vertical spy traps (at a cost of a nerf to the range of the laser).

Yeah, I know and that's what I said. I stated that Valserp wants to reduce the places you could put mines because a few positions have a priority which leads less mines to be used elsewhere and makes mine placement predictable to spies. And then, on the very next sentence,  I said you disagree with that.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:58:16 AM

QuoteAs a game designer, is it so wrong to cater to 90% of your playing audience while keeping the direction of gameplay alive?

You could argue that this is a big reason that SvM never took off in the first place. When you have a small team size, ie 2 or 3 people, then the gameplay is going to rely much more heavily on teamwork than 6v6 or 8v8 or whatever. Most people don't want to bother...they just want to get online, relax, and that's it.

If you are going to simplify the game so that people don't need to work together as much, then you ruin what gives SvM its depth. That's going to turn everyone on these forums off. Quite frankly, "mindless monkey games" are a dime a dozen, so I'd prefer to have the depth at a cost to popularity.

I might have said this wrong but when I said "90% of your playing audience", I meant 90% of the people who like CT, play CT and are average at CT or higher, not 90% of everyone who plays all video games. You join any server and 9 out of 10 times, it won't be two partners. These are the people I'm paying attention too (this applies to most of you reading this) and they would hate if we changed the basic premise of gameplay as much as you.

Spekkio, let me restate my arguments.
* I want to reduce the requirement of smoke and chaff (because I see those gadgets more than anything else) so that spies would bring stuff they want, not need.
* I noted that I use chaff mostly to get to those mines that are unreachable otherwise.
* If we got rid of those, chaff would be of less importance and more on par with the other equipment.
* And we'll see more of the other equipment types like HB sensor (if people say it's good, why aren't lots people using it? Lack of slots maybe?).

This is me designing a new game. I love CT just the way it is, I have never gotten annoyed that I bring smoke and chaff to almost every game. I'm sure you understand that and the list you made also wouldn't have a place in CT but good for a new game.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 04:37:25 AM
Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

I said nothing of the such. As you yourself said - your equipment only works if you use it right. Remember, all those analogies with grenades tazer and whatnot? You seem to quickly forget what you've said just a few posts ago.
If you put a poison mine next to a med-kit, it would be useless. If you put a laser mine in the middle of a huge room, where it can't kill a spy who trips the laser from the other side of the room - it's useless. Now for the punchline - if you put a lasermine on a doorway and a spy can still get through it without chaff - it would be useless.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 01:25:28 PM

Quote from: Gawain on April 21, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.

Actually, I understood him perfectly. There is no contradiction in that post.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 01:25:28 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:58:16 AMIf you think that I'm for restricting the placement of mines in certain places, you are mistaken. I'm actually in favor of loosening the placement abilities back to PT style in which you were able to place them higher. I'm also in favor of giving mercs back 5 spy traps and vertical spy traps (at a cost of a nerf to the range of the laser).

Yeah, I know and that's what I said. I stated that Valserp wants to reduce the places you could put mines because a few positions have a priority which leads less mines to be used elsewhere and makes mine placement predictable to spies.

Now now, there is no need to put words in my mouth, we can all see that you are out of arguments anyway.
I didn't start this whole debate with you, nor have I ever stated anywhere in it, that mines should be restricted to specific spots. That is stupid to even think about and has next to nothing to do with what we were debating.
Let me remind you - you were saying that spies should be able to neuter any sort of smart mine placement without using any sort of gadget for themselves. They "deserve" that oppurtunity because they have already "seen the mine". Yes, those are your words.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 01:25:28 PM

Quote from: Gawain on April 21, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.

If all the old players come back, I'll be satisfied with it. Right now, there are too many wannabe pros, rank kiddies and flamers out there, but imo a bug-free sc with no rank system could stop them ;)

If you want a fix for mines in impenetrable locations, it's pretty easy:

Spy crawl. Spies gets down and crawls on the floor, moving very slowly and under the laser. Crawling has the disadvantage of being very slow and makes the spy quite vulnerable since he can't pull out his gun or run away without first standing up.

Remember that mines aren't supposed to kill spies necessarily (not good spies anyway) mines and static defenses are there to slow spies down. Forcing them to crawl under them would certainly achieve that goal.

If crawling would take 3 secs to get down, and then x secs to craw under the mine, and then 3 secs to get up, I am fine with it. Should it be able to be done with camo activated?

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM
I said nothing of the such. As you yourself said - your equipment only works if you use it right. Remember, all those analogies with grenades tazer and whatnot? You seem to quickly forget what you've said just a few posts ago.
If you put a poison mine next to a med-kit, it would be useless. If you put a laser mine in the middle of a huge room, where it can't kill a spy who trips the laser from the other side of the room - it's useless. Now for the punchline - if you put a lasermine on a doorway and a spy can still get through it without chaff - it would be useless.

How many times have you said that mines are useless unless placed in certain positions? What part of that am I misunderstanding?

Quote

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: Gawain on April 21, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.

Actually, I understood him perfectly. There is no contradiction in that post.

His first sentence said he wouldn't care, his second sentence said he would perfer to be small, his third sentence started with "nevertheless" which opposes the second.

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM
Now now, there is no need to put words in my mouth, we can all see that you are out of arguments anyway.
I didn't start this whole debate with you, nor have I ever stated anywhere in it, that mines should be restricted to specific spots. That is stupid to even think about and has next to nothing to do with what we were debating.
Let me remind you - you were saying that spies should be able to neuter any sort of smart mine placement without using any sort of gadget for themselves. They "deserve" that oppurtunity because they have already "seen the mine". Yes, those are your words.

I know you didn't directly say it but predictable mine positioning is a byproduct of certain positions being stronger than the rest.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on April 21, 2007, 01:59:08 PM
If you want a fix for mines in impenetrable locations, it's pretty easy:

Spy crawl. Spies gets down and crawls on the floor, moving very slowly and under the laser. Crawling has the disadvantage of being very slow and makes the spy quite vulnerable since he can't pull out his gun or run away without first standing up.

Remember that mines aren't supposed to kill spies necessarily (not good spies anyway) mines and static defenses are there to slow spies down. Forcing them to crawl under them would certainly achieve that goal.

Exactly, I didn't say to add a new move (it is kind of weird that they can't step over lasers at ankle height) but I said you should be able to roll over most of them (which you can't do to laser mines to the exits of hall).

Quoteif you put a lasermine on a doorway and a spy can still get through it without chaff - it would be useless.

Which is why they ARE useless in doorways. Run into laser, run back around corner as the mine blows. I actually do this even when I have chaff so I don't waste the grenade.

QuoteSpy crawl. Spies gets down and crawls on the floor, moving very slowly and under the laser. Crawling has the disadvantage of being very slow and makes the spy quite vulnerable since he can't pull out his gun or run away without first standing up.

Bad idea. The mercs need some way to make the spies trip a defense, or else they'd rarely find the spies.

Quote* I want to reduce the requirement of smoke and chaff (because I see those gadgets more than anything else) so that spies would bring stuff they want, not need.
* I noted that I use chaff mostly to get to those mines that are unreachable otherwise.
* If we got rid of those, chaff would be of less importance and more on par with the other equipment.
* And we'll see more of the other equipment types like HB sensor (if people say it's good, why aren't lots people using it? Lack of slots maybe?).

1. Smoke and chaff are in no way required.
2. You're always going to have some equipment that is better than others so long as the equipment varies in function. That's why everyone takes gasmask.
3. Plenty of people take the HB sensor. This is just an unfounded statement based upon your prejudices.

Quote
@spekkio: why don't you use camo? maybe because it sux? i think it's kinda exotic that both of you have snares, will try this out

I don't use camo because I don't keep track of who has EAX and who doesn't. But I do use camo on the following maps where the sound does not penetrate the ambient noise:
-Station
-Zioplex
-Oilrig

I can also tell you that DucusSumus, Seefoo, and Cataclysm use/have used camo with great success, and all three are top players.

As for both of us taking snares, it is a bit overkill. Sometimes I'd take chaff just to have something different. I find that it's good to coordinate your equipment (as both spy and merc), rather than both people taking the same stuff.

Quotebtw, i never said that mines and traps (lol) are op and that you need chaff to get around them. don't be so arrogant

Sorry for the arrogance, but from what some of you guys are saying it's obvious that you're not any good at the game. The question in your poll implies that stealth cannot work when in actuality, it works quite nicely. When tweaking any game, the top players should have more input than noobs. The best example of this working is in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade. They pooled a bunch of experts together to test the beta of the 1.2 patch and give their input, and the result is a mostly balanced version of the game. There are still some things that need tweaking, but it's very hard to achieve perfection in anything.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:29:12 PM

Quote* I want to reduce the requirement of smoke and chaff (because I see those gadgets more than anything else) so that spies would bring stuff they want, not need.
* I noted that I use chaff mostly to get to those mines that are unreachable otherwise.
* If we got rid of those, chaff would be of less importance and more on par with the other equipment.
* And we'll see more of the other equipment types like HB sensor (if people say it's good, why aren't lots people using it? Lack of slots maybe?).

1. Smoke and chaff are in no way required.
2. You're always going to have some equipment that is better than others so long as the equipment varies in function. That's why everyone takes gasmask.
3. Plenty of people take the HB sensor. This is just an unfounded statement based upon your prejudices.

1. Sorry, replace "requirement" with "incentives". In my experince, smoke and chaff are the most common things I see.
2. I know, all the equipments won't ever have equal usefulness. But the closer the equipment's usefulness are, the more variety you'll see from the spy's choices.
3. Whatever, replace it with something that you don't see spy's use often. It was just an example.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 04:44:10 PM

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:29:12 PM

Quote* I want to reduce the requirement of smoke and chaff (because I see those gadgets more than anything else) so that spies would bring stuff they want, not need.
* I noted that I use chaff mostly to get to those mines that are unreachable otherwise.
* If we got rid of those, chaff would be of less importance and more on par with the other equipment.
* And we'll see more of the other equipment types like HB sensor (if people say it's good, why aren't lots people using it? Lack of slots maybe?).

1. Smoke and chaff are in no way required.
2. You're always going to have some equipment that is better than others so long as the equipment varies in function. That's why everyone takes gasmask.
3. Plenty of people take the HB sensor. This is just an unfounded statement based upon your prejudices.

1. Sorry, replace "requirement" with "incentives". In my experince, smoke and chaff are the most common things I see.
2. I know, all the equipments won't ever have equal usefulness. But the closer the equipment's usefulness are, the more variety you'll see from the spy's choices.
3. Whatever, replace it with something that you don't see spy's use often. It was just an example.

With the exception of camo suit, I think all the spy equipment is equally viable depending on how you want to play it. The only reason I put an exception for camo is that some people can hear the activation very clearly, so it gives you away.

The most common thing I see is cams because they give the spies an extra way to KO the merc. Everything else tends to vary considerably.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 21, 2007, 04:48:18 PM
The most common thing I see is cams because they give the spies an extra way to KO the merc. Everything else tends to vary considerably.

More than smoke and chaff? That is completely different from my experiences. I wish I could face spies that don't all play in roughly the same way. *sigh*

The only spy I know who doesn't take cams is Ducus (he also doesn't take smoke or chaff. His theory was that by not taking smoke/cams, he would make the mercs "waste" their equipment slot on gasmask). I sometimes drop them for something else if I find that I'm just not able to KO my opponents with them. Other than that, cams are a universal equipment item.

QuoteI wish I could face spies that don't all play in roughly the same way. *sigh*

Get on xfire and start adding people. Honestly, I've never seen you around so yea.

I don't use cams simply because its nuts for you to have it when you can't play on any server with less than 200 ping.

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 02:14:46 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM
I said nothing of the such. As you yourself said - your equipment only works if you use it right. Remember, all those analogies with grenades tazer and whatnot? You seem to quickly forget what you've said just a few posts ago.
If you put a poison mine next to a med-kit, it would be useless. If you put a laser mine in the middle of a huge room, where it can't kill a spy who trips the laser from the other side of the room - it's useless. Now for the punchline - if you put a lasermine on a doorway and a spy can still get through it without chaff - it would be useless.

How many times have you said that mines are useless unless placed in certain positions? What part of that am I misunderstanding?

You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

Quote from: Overstatement on April 21, 2007, 02:14:46 PM

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: Gawain on April 21, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
affirmative. i don't care about the size of the community, if there are enough great people around to have ggs. in fact, i prefer a smaller, more personal community to a mass event. nevertheless, it would be great if european and american people would play more together.

So this would be more, less or the same as the CT community at it's prime? You contradict yourself a lot so I wasn't sure.

Actually, I understood him perfectly. There is no contradiction in that post.

His first sentence said he wouldn't care, his second sentence said he would perfer to be small, his third sentence started with "nevertheless" which opposes the second.[/quote]

So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

Quote from: Valserp on April 21, 2007, 01:51:51 PM
Now now, there is no need to put words in my mouth, we can all see that you are out of arguments anyway.
I didn't start this whole debate with you, nor have I ever stated anywhere in it, that mines should be restricted to specific spots. That is stupid to even think about and has next to nothing to do with what we were debating.
Let me remind you - you were saying that spies should be able to neuter any sort of smart mine placement without using any sort of gadget for themselves. They "deserve" that oppurtunity because they have already "seen the mine". Yes, those are your words.

I know you didn't directly say it but predictable mine positioning is a byproduct of certain positions being stronger than the rest.[/quote]

Read my above. It is only natural that traps and mines will be placed in tight quarters, corners and chokepoints. Because a mine does not kill a spy if they are running 50 meters away. Traps' lasers are also limited. Pressure detectors only detect spies at a 2-3 meter distance. It is only natural that they will all be placed in tight quarters. I know that I am repeating myself. Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.


By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

I got pwned 2 days ago with noob mines near the Spy's spawn point at Aqua. Really interesting.

QuoteBy the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Heh, I'm down for that. Don't forget Gawain, either.

If you want, I'll do a dedicated server, so I can watch both sides.
Of course, you'll need to accept the lag and extra bugs of the dedicated server thingy.

No thanks. Listen server plz.

Gawain gets added to the challenge for making this thread.
We won't aggro.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

What I said was:

Quote
Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

Because what you said was:

Quote
anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

and

QuoteIt's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is

So spies would see every laser thing you put down and you think it they're useless if the spy doesn't need chaff to bring down those unshootable ones.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

I wasn't trying to insult him. I was trying to get exactly where he wanted the size of the community because I was curious about his opinion.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.

There are still some positions that suprise spies. Spekkio calls them "noob positions". If you look harder, you could probably find a few more.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
By the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Yeah, sure. I know we'll get owned because I've played Spekkio before. My partner doesn't play anymore either so I'm not sure how we could make this fair. Not sure it matters, I'd mostly be interested on how you would do without smoke and chaff.

But I am having problems with my computer being able to play games, including CT. If anyone has any ideas, PM me because I'd rather not have to reformat (yes, I have gotten the lastest drivers).
In Natural Selection or DoD(HL1 mods), frequently my controls appear stuck. For a second every minute or so (seems to happen most when I press more than one key), if I'm firing and moving forward, I lose control and I keep firing, unable to move the mouse and keep going forward.
In CT Versus, every 5 or so seconds, a frame takes a lot longer to render than the rest (like half to a full second).
Does not affect most other games like CT SP. Geforce4 TI4200 ("buy a new card" is not good technical advice).

Quote from: Overstatement on April 22, 2007, 05:24:33 AM
Yeah, sure. I know we'll get owned because I've played Spekkio before. My partner doesn't play anymore either so I'm not sure how we could make this fair. Not sure it matters, I'd mostly be interested on how you would do without smoke and chaff.

Yeah, pretty much. I play xbox CT most of the time now. I gave up on the PC version because of EAX and all seeing MT vision, which tends to be what all the pros use.

I didn't burn like $250 on an uber sound card so I can hear people activate camo across the level, nor do I have a particularly uber graphics card that displays High quality post render at maximum resolution, so yeah... I don't have much of a chance.

LoL...an audigy 2 zs is like $20 now. It was 50 when I bought it.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 01:55:54 AM

QuoteBy the way, Spekkio and I are willing to play vs Overstatement and InvisibleMan999, or if you guys wish so, you will play seperately with your own friends. For our spy round, NONE of us will take neither chaff or smoke.

Heh, I'm down for that. Don't forget Gawain, either.

hey cool  :D
i'd love to see some stealth (lol ironic: to see stealth). the only problem is, that im kinda out of training and i haven't played with my mate (nxr cromos) for some weeks...
but atm i'm working on a come-back :P  i did some tweaking with the default.ini and the drivers, and now i more than 50 fps, 1600*1200 resolution, and smoother aiming. let the laming begin XD
btw, i'm aware of the stealth possibilities that good maps like orph or factory offer, but i'd really be surprised if you could show me some stealth on museum, bank, aqua etc :D

Quote from: Overstatement on April 22, 2007, 05:24:33 AM

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
You yourself said that you have to use your equipment properly in order to acieve success with it, no?
It is only common sense that a proxy mine in the middle of a huge room that the spies always tend to avoid will NOT be effective. It is only common sense that you would put these in chokepoints and generally in locations where the mine's blast radius will affect the spy. They won't be slowed down if they don't feel threatened by the mine, will they?
What part of that are you misunderstanding?

What I said was:

Quote
Valserp: The common argument you're using is that mines are too weak so let's put them in places that make them stronger (the ones spies can't shoot at from a certain direction).

Because what you said was:

Quote
anything with a laser becomes useless once you decide to NOT use it on doorways.

and

QuoteIt's only logical that a spy would turn on heat vision before passing through every doorway there is

So spies would see every laser thing you put down and you think it they're useless if the spy doesn't need chaff to bring down those unshootable ones.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
So english is not his primary english. Hey, Gawain, type your post out in german, see if he'll understand you then.

I wasn't trying to insult him. I was trying to get exactly where he wanted the size of the community because I was curious about his opinion.

Quote from: Valserp on April 22, 2007, 01:38:27 AM
Anyway, once a spy is familiar with a map, they would know where there are small rooms and chokepoints, to which mercs have access. Therefore it would be possible that they have trapped those places.
Once people become good at the game, every possible mine position(that is useful) becomes predictable. There is nothing wrong with that since the mines still retain their ability to slow spies down.

There are still some positions that suprise spies. Spekkio calls them "noob positions". If you look harder, you could probably find a few more.

So yeah, I used doorways as the most common place for laser traps to be placed. It is a fact due to the close quarters etc etc etc AND because it's hard to remove without chaff.
Spies DO see 90% of your laser stuff. The rest 10% they either don't trip for the whole game or you actually manage to get a kill with them.

"Noob positions" can surprise a player but it's pretty much 50/50. They are those kind of positions that one would never place a mine because it would actually be ineffective. Therefore a spy does not expect that the merc would've wasted a mine at that spot. It's kinda reverse-psychology.

i usually place 2 pro mines and 1 n00b mine, and guess what: the noob mine makes the same number of kills as the 2 pro mines together in most games. ;D
the trick is that you place them unpredictable and vary them all the time. but tbh, mines have only small use against pros, maybe i should try out traps again  ???

INTRO: For thoes who dont know who I am:
I can say the same thing as spekkio did. Me and my mate ended up at a second place in the europe bracket. So I aswell know what im talking about.

Ok I just read thru all these pages. And wow. Some really .. hmm .. wierd statements. To begin with, I almost never use smoke. Only on missle. And none have yet mentioned the sticky cams? They are at least by the pros the most use, and from my point of view the most usefull gadget. If I had to chose only two gadgets, I would take cams and hbs. Thoes are the two I NEVER take out of my arsenal.

As for laser mines/traps/poison. They are weak already as they are. Ofcourse they should be placed in spots where it's hard for the spies to dissarm them. Otherwise they would be useless. I, myself, use chaff 9/10 times. But thats because I choose to play that way.

I consider myself as a quite stealthy player. But a lot depends on the map and also the partner im with. From my own experience I can also say that it's very hard to decide before a game if you are going to play very stealth or very aggro. Diffrent situations the happends in the match can change the whole game. That whats make the game so great.

it's all about adjustment  ;)

Quote from: Frelli on April 22, 2007, 03:59:23 PM
If I had to chose only two gadgets, I would take cams and hbs. Thoes are the two I NEVER take out of my arsenal.

me2. definitely.

I look at this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3651075192/m/8411066703?r=4771056703#4771056703) and count (skipping Spekkio's needlessly long post)
Smoke: 17 to 2
Chaff: 14 to 5
If anyone could find a more recent thread, that would be great.

Quotei'd love to see some stealth (lol ironic: to see stealth). the only problem is, that im kinda out of training and i haven't played with my mate (nxr cromos) for some weeks...

I haven't teamed with valserp ever, and flash/snares/cams/hb isn't my normal loadout. Don't make excuses  :P.

As for mines, one of my favorite things is running around and tripping off like 4 proxies and losing 20% health. I can imagine the mercs cursing when that happens. Hence why I suggested that the trip radius be lowered in my other thread.

affirmative.
btw, i'm not making excuses, i just need some time to get back in training and to get some teamplay with whomsoever. btw, this eq is quite normal (except snares instead of chaff). what's your ordinary eq?

I actually alter my equipment so often that I can't tell you a "normal" equipment loadout. It usually involves some combination of 1. Could be any grenade depending on the map, but in the order of frequency smoke >>>> chaff > flashbangs 2. Chaff or snares, camo on a select few maps 3. cams 4. HB/bullets, snares or camo on a select few maps. The item I take the least is camo.

When I play with someone like valserp who takes flash/snares/cams/hb, I will almost always take smoke/chaff/cams/bullets. The two loadouts tend to compliment each other. But the point of the game is to show that it's possible to win without smoke and chaff, so I'm not going to use them.

Oh, and another thing with mines:

An often overlooked tactic: don't place any mines until after the spy's initial or even second rush. Bonus is you get to see what routes they like. People get much more careless after they've been to places and not seen any mines there.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 05:44:33 PM
But the point of the game is to show that it's possible to win without smoke and chaff, so I'm not going to use them.

It's possible to win without any eq. It's just much harder.
Not taking cams/smoke has the advantage that the gasmask is pretty useless for the merc (afaik every pro takes mask)

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 05:44:33 PM
An often overlooked tactic: don't place any mines until after the spy's initial or even second rush. Bonus is you get to see what routes they like. People get much more careless after they've been to places and not seen any mines there.

i love the psychological aspects of the game ^^

QuoteIt's possible to win without any eq. It's just much harder

Actually, there are two things that make flash > smoke:

1. If you're up against snipers, flash will take them out of snipe mode so you can run
2. Flashbangs tend to make mercs not use their mask, which allows you to quick-cam them more easily.

Btw I forgot to say. I ALWAYS use camo on polar base. It's great for getting out of spawn ans disc drop. Also good for moving around on big areas.

lol scworld make your own post and stop editing mine.

Oops, thought I selected quote. Apparently it was the Modify. I'll undo it. Sorry.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 22, 2007, 07:35:11 PM

QuoteIt's possible to win without any eq. It's just much harder

Actually, there are two things that make flash > smoke:

1. If you're up against snipers, flash will take them out of snipe mode so you can run
2. Flashbangs tend to make mercs not use their mask, which allows you to quick-cam them more easily.

I'd like to add:
3. Most players will try to charge you. Even some pros.

These 3 points are my reason for carrying flash instead of smoke. I only use smoke on specific maps, like Missile and maybe Bank (dont remember).

There ya go :)

Anyway, when are we gonna get this game on?

Get your game on!

After playing a couple of rounds, I realized that I am no threat or challenge. So anytime.

I'll be online as I post this. Mehehe.

Quote from: Spekkio on April 23, 2007, 08:47:08 PM
Anyway, when are we gonna get this game on?

Well, noone seems to have officially accepted the challenge...

To anyone who wishes to do so, my xfire is valserp. Please do add a reason for the friend invite, though.

Mine is spekkio9. Same thing with the reason, or else i will deny the invite.

I'd play, only it seems I don't have any partner or anything to play with... so that would make things difficult.

It's not like valserp and I are teammates to begin with...or that we even speak the same primary language.