Hy guys im new to the forum and what a surprise i have some questions or rather suggestions.
The main problem was with CT that you got no feedback on your hud on whats happening.
Example: A merc points his gun at you but still didn't see you, you got no visual notification on the fact that you could be seen at that point or not (A simple white or black dot at the corner of the spy hud could just solve this or a bar just like in single player CT).
Example 2.: A merc shoots a spy but there is no way to tell that the shots have landed or not. Suggestion: Have blood splatter when a spy is shot (like in counter strike when you hit something) or have sound when someone is hit.
I hope these suggestions can be discussed here to make the game even better then CT multiplayer ever was.
The reticule turns red when you shoot a spy on xbox at least. I can't remember if it does or not on PC.
You must be very noob at SCCT...
A spy can be seen anywhere other than locations inaccessible to the merc.
The aimer turns red when you hit the spy.
Which is a not really visual confirm cos the cross turns red on all shootable things like mines , cams etc.
Also this is not really my problem, my friend who tried it found these little things outrageous, i can live without this visual thingy. Also the first problem that you can be seen or not is not solved by red cross thing.When you are sitting in far away corner and someone points a flashlight at you from 100 meters you still dont know that he would see you or just see some dark lump that could be anything.
Versus or PS are multiplayer game, it is not scct solo where you playing aganist bots...you can be visible for merc but he won't notice you. In my opinion that idea is stupid. Hiding in shadow is part of a skill in game so, why we should destroy that?
In scct cross-hair turn red if your bullet/mine/nade make any damage on opponent. Sound if someone is hit will be annoying I guess, maybe it should be available but you choose you want hear sound and see red cross-hair or just see red cross-hair.
Quote from: Ruro on June 21, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
Which is a not really visual confirm cos the cross turns red on all shootable things like mines , cams etc.
Also this is not really my problem, my friend who tried it found these little things outrageous, i can live without this visual thingy. Also the first problem that you can be seen or not is not solved by red cross thing.When you are sitting in far away corner and someone points a flashlight at you from 100 meters you still dont know that he would see you or just see some dark lump that could be anything.
A dark lump won't just be anything once people learn the maps. It would be a spy.
Sometimes it's good not to know whether or not the merc saw you. Makes it a bit more intense.
How many times have you accidentally shot a mine when trying to shoot a spy? Seriously. The cursor turning red is good enough but I agree that some blood would be a nice touch.
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 21, 2010, 10:54:23 PM
... I agree that some blood would be a nice touch.
Time to take it to a NEW Level.
Not only blood, but BLEEDING. Imagine following a trail of blood to the unfortunate spy that took quite the hit to the leg. A Health Station (For bleeding effect, health can be regained by a friend. You know... Differentiate the two so that they aren't the same) is the only friend you got since your Stealth has been hampered by your own undoing.
OR
Even FURTHER.
Context Sensitive hit-areas for Spies. Get shot in the Leg? Uh oh... You can only limp your way to safety. Get shot in the Hand/Arm? You best hope that Climbing wasn't your only escape plan since it takes twice as long.
Merc's are immune to this because... well... Spies already do that for headshots. I GOT IT, we ADD to the headshot! Combine CT AND DA. Except when you "Hack" the Merc he get's a BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death), to which he not only has to take the helmet off (Rendering all Visions useless like it already is), he ALSO has to hit an equipment box/Ammo Crate to get a new Helmet.
...Oh wait, that second idea as a whole is bad in general. PAY IT NO ATTENTION.
;D
Quote from: Ruro on June 21, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
Which is a not really visual confirm cos the cross turns red on all shootable things like mines , cams etc.
No it doesn't.
cronky: way to complex...
Oookay point is you need a LOT of information that are easy to understand for anyone. I mean when you sit down and play thing like counter strike you dont really need to understand all mechanics behind it because you will just KNOW that things are coming at you and you are ment to shoot them.
In CT its a real problem that you get no real confirmation of anything unless you are standing next to it (like a door panel). Knowing a map has merits indeed, but by not knowing it is your undoing by default and thats plain wrong in my opinion.
So i dont suggest that my points should be implemented as they are, i suggest that the whole HUD and what you see should be more straightforward.
But i think nobody would care about all this, because it seems the old CT ppl are just enough playerbase for the game and as i see it they just shut out all new ppl and shout them in the face NOOB. A really civilized way indeed.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 12:07:50 AM
-Post right above mine grab-
I'm sure there is a way to get stuff across like you are saying, it's just that at this moment there's not a lot of thought being put into it.
SvM has ALWAYS had a steep learning curve to REALLY get into the game. That's its blessing and curse. It's REALLY fun... but those games before you got the hang of it were brutal.
Knowing the Map has always been the best info you could have, but also only could really be attained by playing against real people (you can't tell a good spot or not by simply looking at it. Even at that most of the Spy gameplay is based on Improvisation based on your situation).
The question of whether you're hidden or not is fundamental to the whole games mechanics... and most of it's fun. You COULD have a slider or something like Single player Splinter Cell that tells you whether you're in a REALLY dark corner, or just a SEMI-dark corner... but alas... it's useless the second a Merc shines a light on it... which is the whole point. It's not some AI searching for you that's going to just walk past simply because you're in a Dark spot, mistaking you for a bag of trash because from far away you are just an black blob.
...Now if SvM was more like Metal Gear Online and it's Box Hiding Mechanic (Empty boxes are randomly strewn about the level) then maybe it would be more applicable, but as it is... Shadows are only as good as you wish to use them. A Shadow meter no matter how simplistic isn't going to help the casual OR hardcore... new OR old... because there is no difference to an actual person checking them.AS for the Cross-hair...
Xbox CT SvM did do what you were saying (And to I think a lesser extent PC) with the flare up of Red.
It was both good and bad though. Using Sniper vision I could shoot into a spot I was questioning (Say the upper box in Deftec) and regardless of my lack of knowledge of a spy actually BEING in there
the red Blink after my shot in the dark ,quite literally, gave away his position. GOOD for me,
but unfair some would say for them.Take that as you will (If you even manage to read it all :o)
yeah, why the fuck doesn't the game read people's minds to tell me if they've noticed me or not?
get to work devs
Neural link systems systems are possible, but out of our non-existing budget.
As for the reticle turning red, I personally think it removes some of the excitement. You have to take both Spy and Merc sides into account. In general, you want the Spy to have the most 'intense' emotions, because a single slip up can cost you your life. One way to boost that, is to add some points of 'doubt' into the Merc's gameplay. Depending on the mood of the Merc-player, he can blind-fire into a corner. If you, as a Spy, are positive that it's just a random hit, you can take a gamble and just get hit once. The Merc wouldn't notice then.
However, from the Merc's point of view, having hit-detection makes it easier.
I think it makes it too easy and can be seen as having an unfair advantage. Assuming a Merc has 120 bullets, of which he uses like 90 in real battles, he has 30 'free' shots at potentially discovering a Spy, without any risk. And that risk thing needs to be balanced. Searching for a Spy should leave the Merc open for a counter-attack by the second Spy, or a well-playing Spy in general.
This is just my opinion btw.
Shit'd suck if you were lagging and couldn't even tell if you were hitting someone or not. And it's not like it isn't easy to check for spies anyway. Just use the light. Or the laser.
Lagging? Dude, we're not Ubi... Bahahaha.
Ok... if you're in AUS and you are connecting to a server at the other side of the world... yes... Can't fix that. But we're trying to make it run smoother than CT.
I think it sucks even more when you're a spy, lagging, and cant kill (Or shock) anything...
...in a Deathmatch... (Blah Blah Blah, Yeah, Deathmatch is for Noobs. Shhhhhhh)
I actually got a normal and fair feedback on my post, wtf am i dreaming? Is this really the infrawebs? :D
Well about this whole learning curve : its really about the map design i think. If you have like a tons of objectives which can unlock an other tons of objectives then yea its fun but it really strains your brain to play on a map like that when you just want plain fun.
Implementing some kind of minimap to the corner of the screen helps out in a way that its harder to get lost. With a map button and lets say a ping option like in an RTS you can even signal your mate to get to a position.
Also box hiding in mgs? That sound damn fun! Somebody already suggested empty trash containers and such for hiding spots in this forum as i recall it.
By the way what do you guys think about a dmg indicator (like a red splash at the bottom of the screen when you get hit from behind)?
Also this may be a little off but whats the setting for Project Stealth? I mean, is it present days, or alternative future?
Maps do have a learning curve. I love Deftec on CT more than any other map. I can probably traverse it with my eyes closed if I REALLY wanted to (and no Mercs were there), but it's only one part of the equation that is the games actual learning curve.
Stealth, Improvisation, Searching, Educated Guessing... It's all just kind of random things in the game that you only improve with experience.
-Anyone can hide in a dark corner, but only someone who's played the game for a while will know the likelihood that someone will search there instinctively.
-Anyone can guard an objective, but experience is the only way you can give a good guess on HOW they will try to get to said objective.
They take FAR more time then learning the layout of a map, but are also part of Learning The Map... aside from map design, but if you are coming into SvM with the thought of having Fun and being New then you might be disappointed (Unless you are playing with a friend you know well... or somehow find someone that will play along).
Fun with it (for me) comes depending on what I'm trying to do with a game. If I want to come out on top everytime, cause I derive fun from being #1... well... SvM isn't the first thing I think of. Halo may be more my speed. If I want to have a nice time with a friend, and don't care about winning or losing. That's when I start up a Match in Deftec. I'll stick with that for... whatever this beginning part was supposed to be...
The mini-map RTS style pinging... Could do something, but unless the Minimap is intricate, it'd probably go unused. I could easily just TELL my partner to go hide somewhere specific before s/he could decipher exactly where I was Pinging.
The directional splash... I don't see anything WRONG with it. It's in 90% of game now a days as is, but it'd have to be stylized right so that it didn't get in the way. (A game about detail get's a little cumbersome when you try to block some... even if it's for a good reason)
Project Stealth's Setting... I assumed was kinda Futuristic from what the spy looks like, but could believe present day. (Military Covert Ops Soldiers with High Tec Suits vs Mercenary Squads)
Metal Gear Online's Box Hiding... Oh it is one of the reasons I had to get a PS3. Hiding in a Box/Barrel... Setting a Magazine on the ground... Waiting for my Prey.
...Perhaps I wasn't the best teammate, and never went for objectives, but much like SvM... The stealth was all the fun I was wanting from it.
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 02:10:40 AM
Project Stealth's Setting... I assumed was kinda Futuristic from what the spy looks like, but could believe present day. (Military Covert Ops Soldiers with High Tec Suits vs Mercenary Squads)
Damn how i would love it to be some kind of a realistic cyberpunk setting :P Also the spy could have a full body pulsing green light just like orbital frames in zoe... damn look at me blabbering nonsense...
And i dont play games to win, that plain stupid in my opinion (and the mentality of always wanting to win gives birth to cheaters who i really damn despise and hate)
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 02:45:06 AM
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 02:10:40 AM
Project Stealth's Setting... I assumed was kinda Futuristic from what the spy looks like, but could believe present day. (Military Covert Ops Soldiers with High Tec Suits vs Mercenary Squads)
Damn how i would love it to be some kind of a realistic cyberpunk setting :P Also the spy could have a full body pulsing green light just like orbital frames in zoe... damn look at me blabbering nonsense...
And i dont play games to win, that plain stupid in my opinion (and the mentality of always wanting to win gives birth to cheaters who i really damn despise and hate)
With how open the background info for the game is... I'm pretty sure that if you pretend REALLY hard, it can be... for you. ;D
Plus if you get into Map Making, I'm sure you could pay Homage to ANYTHING you'd want. From the sounds of it... The Devs are counting on EVERYONE helping make the game better than it's foundation (as any good Community should).
Also glad to hear you can actually play a game without the NEED to win. Video games are an Entertainment, even losing should equal out to at least a little bit of it. Though Winning will always equal more.
SvM has always been a get together though (again, for me). Play with someone enough, and soon that virtual "Death" will be sot with REVENGE from your partner, instead of just bland objective-ing.
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
That's kinda what it does now. Combining Visual Feedback with a Limited Supply of ammo (like frvge mentioned before), you don't have a LOT to just be shooting into ceilings for the hell of it.
If it's a guess though, and it happens to be right... it does come off as unfair. To Balance that sounds tough though. Since how can you balance blind luck?
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 03:12:28 AM
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
That's kinda what it does now. Combining Visual Feedback with a Limited Supply of ammo (like frvge mentioned before), you don't have a LOT to just be shooting into ceilings for the hell of it.
If it's a guess though, and it happens to be right... it does come off as unfair. To Balance that sounds tough though. Since how can you balance blind luck?
How about just not include the luck factor at all? Not having a feature like that wouldn't change anything in actual gameplay, having it just adds those problems.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 02:45:06 AM
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 02:10:40 AM
Project Stealth's Setting... I assumed was kinda Futuristic from what the spy looks like, but could believe present day. (Military Covert Ops Soldiers with High Tec Suits vs Mercenary Squads)
Damn how i would love it to be some kind of a realistic cyberpunk setting :P Also the spy could have a full body pulsing green light just like orbital frames in zoe... damn look at me blabbering nonsense...
And i dont play games to win, that plain stupid in my opinion (and the mentality of always wanting to win gives birth to cheaters who i really damn despise and hate)
im sorry but your idea of that wanting to win gives birth to cheaters i guess in some ways is true but not entirely , everyone who didnt play rank was pretty much a legit player.
Quote from: frvge on June 22, 2010, 12:58:51 AM
I think it makes it too easy and can be seen as having an unfair advantage. Assuming a Merc has 120 bullets, of which he uses like 90 in real battles, he has 30 'free' shots at potentially discovering a Spy, without any risk. And that risk thing needs to be balanced. Searching for a Spy should leave the Merc open for a counter-attack by the second Spy, or a well-playing Spy in general.
This is just my opinion btw.
Limiting the bullet count gives a disincentive to shoot random shots. Shooting also gives away the merc's position. But I still agree that there are advantages. This will be resolved with testing I assume.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 12:07:50 AM
But i think nobody would care about all this, because it seems the old CT ppl are just enough playerbase for the game and as i see it they just shut out all new ppl and shout them in the face NOOB. A really civilized way indeed.
We don't shut out new people; everyone is welcome. However, making simplifications to the game for new people is not what we are looking for. Just take splinter cell conviction for example. That game was very simplified, and it turned out worse for those who have been with the series for awhile. Freedom was limited.
This game should be easy to learn but hard to master because every single game is different. While experience is an advantage, every good player had to be noob at some point too. Plus, everyone will be in the same boat when this is released. I doubt that any SCCT players will have a distinct head start on everyone else. Everyone will be noob in the beginning ;D. Perserverance is key.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 01:52:02 AM
Also this may be a little off but whats the setting for Project Stealth? I mean, is it present days, or alternative future?
Just look at the date for the map called Lakehouse.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on June 22, 2010, 06:56:00 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 22, 2010, 12:58:51 AM
I think it makes it too easy and can be seen as having an unfair advantage. Assuming a Merc has 120 bullets, of which he uses like 90 in real battles, he has 30 'free' shots at potentially discovering a Spy, without any risk. And that risk thing needs to be balanced. Searching for a Spy should leave the Merc open for a counter-attack by the second Spy, or a well-playing Spy in general.
This is just my opinion btw.
Limiting the bullet count gives a disincentive to shoot random shots. Shooting also gives away the merc's position. But I still agree that there are advantages. This will be resolved with testing I assume.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 12:07:50 AM
But i think nobody would care about all this, because it seems the old CT ppl are just enough playerbase for the game and as i see it they just shut out all new ppl and shout them in the face NOOB. A really civilized way indeed.
We don't shut out new people; everyone is welcome. However, making simplifications to the game for new people is not what we are looking for. Just take splinter cell conviction for example. That game was very simplified, and it turned out worse for those who have been with the series for awhile. Freedom was limited.
This game should be easy to learn but hard to master because every single game is different. While experience is an advantage, every good player had to be noob at some point too. Plus, everyone will be in the same boat when this is released. I doubt that any SCCT players will have a distinct head start on everyone else. Everyone will be noob in the beginning ;D. Perserverance is key.
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 01:52:02 AM
Also this may be a little off but whats the setting for Project Stealth? I mean, is it present days, or alternative future?
Just look at the date for the map called Lakehouse.
Oh the irony i just mentioned that to someone else that perseverance was key today...... O_o
PS is situated in the near future. However, we didn't specify a background story, so you can make up anything you want as a mapper. A castle where the Spies and Merc teleported to?
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:33:31 AM
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 03:12:28 AM
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
That's kinda what it does now. Combining Visual Feedback with a Limited Supply of ammo (like frvge mentioned before), you don't have a LOT to just be shooting into ceilings for the hell of it.
If it's a guess though, and it happens to be right... it does come off as unfair. To Balance that sounds tough though. Since how can you balance blind luck?
How about just not include the luck factor at all? Not having a feature like that wouldn't change anything in actual gameplay, having it just adds those problems.
As much as I'd like to agree with you, that's almost the whole point of this thread (if we are going by the title), plus is something already in CT... to which this Game is based upon.
No visual red blink means you NEVER know if you hit, while seemingly minor in comparison to things like... actually hitting the spy in general, it's something you should have simply for usability. Again, limited ammo didn't mean that Mercs in CT were just blind firing constantly in hopes to find Spies, but the blind luck of Guessing Right SEEMS unfair, when in actuality it's just a coincidence you were right.
(Happens about 1 case in 100,000 probably) If you never had that happen to you, then that is more to the point of it not being GAMEBREAKING.
EDIT: It might actually be unbalanced to not have it... OR it could only be on certain things like... Sniper Mode... Grenades... Mines... and things of the sort, but normal fire is subject to exclusion. Since somehow it was balanced in CT as so the example set before of "Faking out a Merc" (He shoots, HITS you, but you don't move then he walks away) actually was possible.
best solution:
-blood splatter when hit (hit indicator only for for visible targets)
-no hit indicator besides that
-no death message, no life counter
we actually discussed that before, and this solution would make everything way more interesting and balanced. if i remember correctly, mr.mic favored this approach, too.
Quote from: Rambo on June 22, 2010, 03:00:02 PM
best solution:
-blood splatter when hit (hit indicator only for for visible targets)
-no hit indicator besides that
-no death message, no life counter
we actually discussed that before, and this solution would make everything way more interesting and balanced. if i remember correctly, mr.mic favored this approach, too.
speaking of which , heres another idea that Mic approved of , I dunno if the idea was forgotten due to being soo busy and what have you but imma reinstate it :
http://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/index.php/topic,1236.0.html
Quote from: Rambo on June 22, 2010, 03:00:02 PM
best solution:
-blood splatter when hit (hit indicator only for for visible targets)
-no hit indicator besides that
-no death message, no life counter
we actually discussed that before, and this solution would make everything way more interesting and balanced. if i remember correctly, mr.mic favored this approach, too.
I mainly agree, but the idea of having no life counter is awful, unless you mean that you can't see the
other team's lives. Being able to see your own lives is very important. As mentioned by frvge, the hit indicator does take away from the tension in the game, which is one of the game's strengths. A blood splatter is better because if you can't see the spy you don't know whether you have made a hit, which is much more logical. Someone discussed leaving a blood trail... no, that would undermine the stealth aspect of the spies.
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
Why do i visualize something really cool when i hear that? Like shooting a glass ceiling to have shards scatter on the spy's visual camo and making it visible (just think GITS anime tank fight at the end if you dont understand my appreciation for this). :D
Also the blood splatter is an OK solution for this. Also the red cross thing is pretty balanced if it only turns red when you actually hit something but i agree that it can be unfair when the merc just shoots randomly and succeeds.
Also no life counter and no death message? Thats awful. You wont even know that you killed someone and believe me it will just add to many ppls frustration instead of their adrenalin level ....
if you don't know if you score it isn't playable. It's still a game but not a real life. My opinion
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
Why do i visualize something really cool when i hear that? Like shooting a glass ceiling to have shards scatter on the spy's visual camo and making it visible (just think GITS anime tank fight at the end if you dont understand my appreciation for this). :D
Also the blood splatter is an OK solution for this. Also the red cross thing is pretty balanced if it only turns red when you actually hit something but i agree that it can be unfair when the merc just shoots randomly and succeeds.
Also no life counter and no death message? Thats awful. You wont even know that you killed someone and believe me it will just add to many ppls frustration instead of their adrenalin level ....
Umm you fail sir, you haven't even looked it says who killed who.. but in a more productive way.. look at the first screen shot on moddb of the mercs visor and ull see it. EPIC FAIL, gg kthxbai.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 22, 2010, 06:17:16 PM
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Quote from: tigaer on June 22, 2010, 03:05:30 AM
You could just shoot into ceilings and shit to find spies. No.
Why do i visualize something really cool when i hear that? Like shooting a glass ceiling to have shards scatter on the spy's visual camo and making it visible (just think GITS anime tank fight at the end if you dont understand my appreciation for this). :D
Also the blood splatter is an OK solution for this. Also the red cross thing is pretty balanced if it only turns red when you actually hit something but i agree that it can be unfair when the merc just shoots randomly and succeeds.
Also no life counter and no death message? Thats awful. You wont even know that you killed someone and believe me it will just add to many ppls frustration instead of their adrenalin level ....
Umm you fail sir, you haven't even looked it says who killed who.. but in a more productive way.. look at the first screen shot on moddb of the mercs visor and ull see it. EPIC FAIL, gg kthxbai.
Because pre-alpha screenshots are just like the full product. Thanks for going off topic...
Quote from: comicsserg on June 22, 2010, 06:11:04 PM
if you don't know if you score it isn't playable. It's still a game but not a real life. My opinion
It could be made an option; it's not what I would prefer, as you can't properly defend a site in a game situation without clear information, but some people might enjoy playing the game in such a way :).
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 22, 2010, 05:42:24 PM
I mainly agree, but the idea of having no life counter is awful, unless you mean that you can't see the other team's lives. Being able to see your own lives is very important. As mentioned by frvge, the hit indicator does take away from the tension in the game, which is one of the game's strengths. A blood splatter is better because if you can't see the spy you don't know whether you have made a hit, which is much more logical. Someone discussed leaving a blood trail... no, that would undermine the stealth aspect of the spies.
Totally agree with the lives counter.
The hit indicator for visible targets makes sense. You say it takes away tension from the game, but with
NO Feedback (Blood splatter only means you have to look for it, which isn't a priority in a fight... unless the splatter is HUGE for some reason) it can just lead the Mercs on with almost NO info. The mechanic also went to add to the
Merc Gameplay. It's all about
being a Predator, KNOWING that you hit something meant that you KNEW eventually one of two situations were going to pop up. Either:
A) The spy will go to a health station
or
B) The spy will go to his/her friend
Without it, every encounter will (Unless otherwise obvious) die down with the Merc having to check his tracks to see if he actually hit anything, or just assuming he did. Which I think would knock both tension, and fun from the Merc side of gameplay. In my opinion obviously.
Not saying that Blood Splatter is bad, but rather
did anyone actually find the hit indicator in CT reducing their tension in a Match?(The examples used for the bad outcomes are RARE occasions. Just wanted to re-point that out. How many people realistically shot into the ceilings in CT randomly to find Spies?)...As for the blood trails... Yeah I just shot out two Ideas that were stupid.
THE POINT of that one though is that there should be a difference between Health Stations and Teammate healing. (Unless there already was one... doesn't seem like it though)
The point of a mercenary is not to be a predator, that's the spies job. The mercenaries job is primarily to defend the objectives. But this is besides the point; personally I feel there's no point of having a hit indicator when a spy is visible to you, as you would just be able to see the blood splatter. And another thing, how would this actually be programmed?
None of the information about how spies heal themselves is relevant, it comes down to how the mercenary knows whether they're hitting their target. I believe the best way of signalling to a mercenary that he's hitting his target is through blood splatter. Then again, if your making long distance shots this may be a problem. Maybe it would be better rather than for the crosshair to turn red, to turn into a cross like MW2, or even just to hear the bullets land on the spy as well as the blood splatter... there's many options which can be explored :)
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
...As for the blood trails... Yeah I just shot out two Ideas that were stupid. THE POINT of that one though is that there should be a difference between Health Stations and Teammate healing. (Unless there already was one... doesn't seem like it though)
Well mercs could place a mine on the health station thats the only real difference.
The Mw2 cross like detection is a bit overpowering in my opinion because you could even hit a bunch of ppl behind a wall with a system like that and they would have no way of retaliation. The sound of something being hit while getting blood splattered seems the best way in my opinion. but there is no perfect solution for this unless its tested out in the actual game.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 22, 2010, 09:07:01 PM
The point of a mercenary is not to be a predator, that's the spies job. The mercenaries job is primarily to defend the objectives. But this is besides the point; personally I feel there's no point of having a hit indicator when a spy is visible to you, as you would just be able to see the blood splatter. And another thing, how would this actually be programmed?
Okay yeah,
predator is probably the wrong word. From their point of view it's more like they are the
Hunter ...Slight difference :P. While their job is to
guard objectives, it's also just as nearly important to
kill the spies (they go hand in hand :/),
set traps, etc.The only problem with blood splatter I actually see is
how it would be implemented. For a Merc to get an indication that he did something to the spy, the blood would have to be
visible. SvM is based around Darkness and Shadows. Counter Strike theory doesn't apply with it's simple painting of blood on a wall, because there is that chance you don't see it.
It then begs the question of if the blood splatter would be
illuminated, or
reflective (so that it catches the eye). Which is counter productive in general if you don't want the stealth of the game to be watered down.
Or if an option like in the below quote...
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 22, 2010, 09:07:01 PM
None of the information about how spies heal themselves is relevant, it comes down to how the mercenary knows whether they're hitting their target. I believe the best way of signalling to a mercenary that he's hitting his target is through blood splatter. Then again, if your making long distance shots this may be a problem. Maybe it would be better rather than for the crosshair to turn red, to turn into a cross like MW2, or even just to hear the bullets land on the spy as well as the blood splatter... there's many options which can be explored :)
The healing was just my example of how their "Predator", but now "Hunter" gameplay made sense. In an encounter... the Spy is at a Disadvantage, unless he knows his way with gadgets and the map. Subtle ques like the Sound Detector and educated guessing based on situations is how the Merc works (When not 100% guarding an objective, even more so in a deathmatch) like what Spies are going to do if they get hit. Insert Options I stated above.
But all in all, yeah, there are a lot of options. Multiple will have to be used, because one isn't superior to all.
...Still want to know if there is going to be a difference between Teammate Healing and Health Station Healing... (Too lazy to search) ;D
Quote from: Ruro on June 22, 2010, 09:42:01 PM
Well mercs could place a mine on the health station thats the only real difference.
I'm not really talking about what makes them different strategically, but
why is a
Box full of Meds, Wraps, antidotes, etc. the same as some dude that can't have more than like...
a couple Advils on him.
I forget if Teammate healing could heal Poison, but that'd make sense if it didn't.
Or if a Teammate could only heal a certain amount.
(Like half a life bar. So if you have 25% health, then you'd get 75% with his help)
Not sure what'd go on, just seems like something should happen there. If it isn't already... Memories are kinda fuzzy.
Quote from: Ruro on June 21, 2010, 10:06:26 PM
Hy guys im new to the forum and what a surprise i have some questions or rather suggestions.
The main problem was with CT that you got no feedback on your hud on whats happening.
Example: A merc points his gun at you but still didn't see you, you got no visual notification on the fact that you could be seen at that point or not (A simple white or black dot at the corner of the spy hud could just solve this or a bar just like in single player CT).
Example 2.: A merc shoots a spy but there is no way to tell that the shots have landed or not. Suggestion: Have blood splatter when a spy is shot (like in counter strike when you hit something) or have sound when someone is hit.
I hope these suggestions can be discussed here to make the game even better then CT multiplayer ever was.
Example 1: There is no way to account for the human factor in this. Some people will look right at you and not see you while others have a better eye.
Example 2: You absolutely do have indication of landing a shot in CT; the reticle changes color.
RE: life counter...everyone did it anyway, so why not just have it part of the game? If you really wanted to count lives accurately, you could have a pen and paper nearby and notch off the spy's lives. You don't need the game to count it for you, it's just doing something that anyone halfway decent at the game was doing anyway.
The only way that you could truly avoid counting spy lives is if you didn't know which spy you killed, but you'd still be able to tell when they had 1 life left between the two of them.
Quote from: Cronky on June 22, 2010, 09:48:44 PM
The only problem with blood splatter I actually see is how it would be implemented. For a Merc to get an indication that he did something to the spy, the blood would have to be visible. SvM is based around Darkness and Shadows.
I see no problem with this.
If a spy is in the shadow, the merc could shoot randomly just to freak out the spies. Now if he hit a spy in the shadow, he'd have a huge advantage of knowing where the spy is, for free. And the spy would have to watch out more, so as not to randomly be hit.
However, without an indication for the merc that he hit, it'd be pretty balanced, and the spies would'nt be at such a disadvantage when passing through open areas.
Seems balanced to me.
I think it's still nice to know which member of the other team you killed, although i see the logic.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 23, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
Example 1: There is no way to account for the human factor in this. Some people will look right at you and not see you while others have a better eye.
Well if you are in absolute darkness in a corner and they look at you without any gadgets you should be invisible or almost invisible. If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion. But then again i found out that all of this is just useless, because almost every damn user will just turn the gamma to over 9000, and shoot you in the face in a dark corner...I would so love to see a lock on gamma options but then they will just turn up the gamma on their screen...
Quote from: Ruro on June 23, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on June 23, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
Example 1: There is no way to account for the human factor in this. Some people will look right at you and not see you while others have a better eye.
Well if you are in absolute darkness in a corner and they look at you without any gadgets you should be invisible or almost invisible. If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion. But then again i found out that all of this is just useless, because almost every damn user will just turn the gamma to over 9000, and shoot you in the face in a dark corner...I would so love to see a lock on gamma options but then they will just turn up the gamma on their screen...
No, they should make lightings in game as are on UMP Versus maps. Gamma only lightens soft shadows that you would see the spy.
Quote from: Ruro on June 23, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on June 23, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
Example 1: There is no way to account for the human factor in this. Some people will look right at you and not see you while others have a better eye.
Well if you are in absolute darkness in a corner and they look at you without any gadgets you should be invisible or almost invisible. If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion. But then again i found out that all of this is just useless, because almost every damn user will just turn the gamma to over 9000, and shoot you in the face in a dark corner...I would so love to see a lock on gamma options but then they will just turn up the gamma on their screen...
Gamma/shadows has nothing to do with it. You can take the same exact image and show it to two different people for the same exact amount of time, and people might see different things. Some people naturally have a better attention to detail than others.
Quote from: Ruro on June 23, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion.
You get one of these in CT. It's called looking at your spy and seeing if you're in the dark or not.
Have you played CT?
I doubt it.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 23, 2010, 10:00:58 PM
Quote from: Ruro on June 23, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion.
You get one of these in CT. It's called looking at your spy and seeing if you're in the dark or not.
Epic answer :D :D :D
Quote from: Spekkio on June 23, 2010, 04:46:25 PM
Quote from: Ruro on June 23, 2010, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on June 23, 2010, 02:20:56 PM
Example 1: There is no way to account for the human factor in this. Some people will look right at you and not see you while others have a better eye.
Well if you are in absolute darkness in a corner and they look at you without any gadgets you should be invisible or almost invisible. If you get an indicator that shows you that you are in a dark area or you are not is really helpful in my opinion. But then again i found out that all of this is just useless, because almost every damn user will just turn the gamma to over 9000, and shoot you in the face in a dark corner...I would so love to see a lock on gamma options but then they will just turn up the gamma on their screen...
Gamma/shadows has nothing to do with it. You can take the same exact image and show it to two different people for the same exact amount of time, and people might see different things. Some people naturally have a better attention to detail than others.
To go even further, when you adjust the brightness then you are adjusting the brightness of the spy and the shadows. You can make the shadows as white as Agent's ass, but it won't be any easier to see the spy. The spy will be just as white.
that's not true. by boosting the gradient in the dark tones you inscrease the contrast there (loosing contrast somewhere else, of course).
Why don't people just play the natural way with natural lighting? I have never changed the brightness because some of the fun in the game is lost. It isn't as scary or realistic :(
Quote from: CurdyMilk on June 24, 2010, 04:36:30 PM
Why don't people just play the natural way with natural lighting? I have never changed the brightness because some of the fun in the game is lost. It isn't as scary or realistic :(
I never changed the contrast EVER in these kind of games. Its just plain stupid, but as long as someone gets something beneficial from changing the contrast brightness or whatever they will just do it... for example they will just put the brightness to max so they dont have to use night vision goggles :P
And for the record i played CT, but whatever man just call me a noob because you are uber-pro, and i have an opinion. And if i sit in a totally dark corner and got shot without any damn vision turned on or even any light source pointing at me then that means that im not in darkness even if i see it that way...
Seems like this discussion just raised a damn flame war and didn't lead to anything. Just lock this thread and lets get over this coz there will be no common ground for this discussion it seems.
Quote from: Rambo on June 24, 2010, 03:21:37 PM
that's not true. by boosting the gradient in the dark tones you inscrease the contrast there (loosing contrast somewhere else, of course).
Not sure I follow. Couldn't this be avoided by giving the spy the same tones as a shadow?
Quote from: Ruro on June 24, 2010, 07:13:34 PM
Quote from: CurdyMilk on June 24, 2010, 04:36:30 PM
Why don't people just play the natural way with natural lighting? I have never changed the brightness because some of the fun in the game is lost. It isn't as scary or realistic :(
I never changed the contrast EVER in these kind of games. Its just plain stupid, but as long as someone gets something beneficial from changing the contrast brightness or whatever they will just do it... for example they will just put the brightness to max so they dont have to use night vision goggles :P
Which is not going to work if you make shadows dark enough, instead of black they will become gray, but contrast wont magically replace your NV. You simply can't get more detail out of one solid block of color (comparable to zooming in on a picture which makes it pixelated, you CANNOT get more details out of one pixel).
Well im left without words then. If there is no possible way to see in the dark without nv even by adjusting brightness and/or contrast then i dont why so many ppl keep saying that they are doing that... must be an other method of trolling... Seems like i need to discredit almost any ppl that i meet in CT, cool. I hope that the PS community will be somewhat better.
Quote from: Ruro on June 24, 2010, 09:07:13 PM
Well im left without words then. If there is no possible way to see in the dark without nv even by adjusting brightness and/or contrast then i dont why so many ppl keep saying that they are doing that... must be an other method of trolling... Seems like i need to discredit almost any ppl that i meet in CT, cool. I hope that the PS community will be somewhat better.
I understand what's going on here. I actually had to do this, but I didn't play the PC version enough to actually notice if it affected the Merc side too (Making it easier to see spies).
MY Story about it:
I have/used a pretty cheapo monitor. The darkness values are a little TOO dark, but changing the brightness and contrast of the actual monitor only helped SO much. Never could I get it to a perfect ratio of each in which normal monitors have default. (My new monitor is just fine)
Going into CT I found that playing as spy was near impossible... unless I wanted to do so with NV on 100% of the time (Which doesn't seem WRONG, but not what I wanted to do). Everything was FAR too dark. Barely being able to see my spy, but my monitor being as good as it was going to get when it comes to brightness/contrast. The next option was the games settings.
Either I put the brightness up to the top, or the game's brightness was topped out default... I'm not sure, but when it was all said and done the game was BETTER, but I could see more improvement if I could have it even brighter. The game being maxed out I went and Edited the .ini file. I put the brightness up to around 1.5-2.0 (Over the max the game itself lets you).
Coming back into the game I found that when playing spy now, nothing was REALLY dark. NV was almost useless because while the game still had dark(er) VALUES, the environment was easily see-able.
With Merc... I have no example because I was already pretty messed up with having an 8800GTX and it's inability to render Merc stush properly.
Why did this thread turn into people whining about sucking at stealth?
Bottom line: you aren't going to be able to put an automatic indicator that accurately represents whether or not a human on the other side actually notices you.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 24, 2010, 10:26:40 PM
Why did this thread turn into people whining about sucking at stealth?
Bottom line: you aren't going to be able to put an automatic indicator that accurately represents whether or not a human on the other side actually notices you.
That's never been the solution since the beginning of this thread. He wanted an indicator to tell you, as a Spy, if you were in a dark spot. Like Single Player Splinter Cell.
It's a useless idea, but didn't have to do with it reading if the Merc saw you or not. That's just the cause and effect of what he believed the indicator would do for new people.
"If it says I'm hidden, then the chance that the Merc will see me is lower than if I stand somewhere where it tells me I'm NOT hidden".
That kind of thing.
Quote from: Ruro on June 24, 2010, 07:13:34 PM
And for the record i played CT, but whatever man just call me a noob because you are uber-pro, and i have an opinion. And if i sit in a totally dark corner and got shot without any damn vision turned on or even any light source pointing at me then that means that im not in darkness even if i see it that way...
But if you were in total darkness like you said then the indicator would have claimed you were in the dark. And you still would have gotten shot.
And I'm not actually calling you a noob, I'm calling you someone who's never played the game before. Even a noob would realise that the crosshair changes colour when you damage people. It's not like it's hard to notice.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 24, 2010, 11:19:39 PM
Even a noob would realise that the crosshair changes colour when you damage people. It's not like it's hard to notice.
It does that? Oh my god I didn't notice.
But yeah, having a crosshair indicator would suck from the spies perspective.
HOWEVER How about haveing an indicator for spies to know when their mate is hit?
@ Cronky,
No, he was specifically talking about the game telling you whether or not a player detected you:
QuoteExample: A merc points his gun at you but still didn't see you, you got no visual notification on the fact that you could be seen at that point or not (A simple white or black dot at the corner of the spy hud could just solve this or a bar just like in single player CT).
QuoteEven a noob would realise that the crosshair changes colour when you damage people. It's not like it's hard to notice.
Braiog seemed to have a lot of trouble with that concept back in the day... maybe it's him under a different name!
Quote from: Cronky on June 24, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on June 24, 2010, 10:26:40 PM
Why did this thread turn into people whining about sucking at stealth?
Bottom line: you aren't going to be able to put an automatic indicator that accurately represents whether or not a human on the other side actually notices you.
That's never been the solution since the beginning of this thread. He wanted an indicator to tell you, as a Spy, if you were in a dark spot. Like Single Player Splinter Cell.
It's a useless idea, but didn't have to do with it reading if the Merc saw you or not. That's just the cause and effect of what he believed the indicator would do for new people.
"If it says I'm hidden, then the chance that the Merc will see me is lower than if I stand somewhere where it tells me I'm NOT hidden".
That kind of thing.
Yep THATS the point. Even if its useless its still something to be appreciated. I already got that there is no way to tell that anybody actually saw you (But the game could still tell you that someone is aiming at you or not. Like some kind of a spy sense...damn just forget it...)
Quote from: Spekkio on June 25, 2010, 12:18:29 AM
QuoteEven a noob would realise that the crosshair changes colour when you damage people. It's not like it's hard to notice.
Braiog seemed to have a lot of trouble with that concept back in the day... maybe it's him under a different name!
I am WHO ? ??? srsly dont confuse me with other ppl im just someone with a shitty idea who came here and (be damned for it) proposed that damn idea. Maybe i should suggest the implementation of a plasma gun next time. At least then i will be rdy for the flame that would come after that proposal.
Quote from: Ruro on June 25, 2010, 01:53:35 AM
im just someone with a shitty idea who came here
you got that part right. now grow some brain (and balls).
QuoteYep THATS the point. Even if its useless its still something to be appreciated. I already got that there is no way to tell that anybody actually saw you (But the game could still tell you that someone is aiming at you or not. Like some kind of a spy sense...damn just forget it...)
You have a 3rd person camera and 3 gadgets that can be used for recon. It's pretty easy to know if a merc is in the area and if he's looking in your general direction.
This isn't Alan Wake where darkness protects your enemies from being shot.
Quote from: Ruro on June 25, 2010, 01:53:35 AM
Yep THATS the point. Even if its useless its still something to be appreciated. I already got that there is no way to tell that anybody actually saw you (But the game could still tell you that someone is aiming at you or not. Like some kind of a spy sense...damn just forget it...)
I have to agree with everyone above me when I say that the idea you are proposing just kind of get's done with common sense. You can see a Merc just fine as is. No need for something to blatantly tell you that fact.
Though I understand your whole stance from this thread.
SvM has a huge learning curve. What you want (unless I'm completely wrong) is the means to lessen that. So that it's open to MORE people, but without watering down what makes the game so good.
What that means in the end is a lot of useless things, but that's only from a hardcore (as I'm deeming people on this forum) perspective. New players that want to get into the game shouldn't have to get into the game through some kind of "Trial by FIRE". Hit indicators, Shadow indicators, Awareness meters, Matchmaking, a tutorial level like CT makes you go through, all of these sounds horrible, but would indeed help the new.
(Some more illogical than others programming wise, but that's not the point)
To make these all OPTIONAL (except for those that are required, like tutorial level) would kind of alleviate this problem.
The PS Devs should be looking not only at what Ubisoft did RIGHT with CT SvM so they have a foundation to build upon. But also what they did WRONG, so they know what to avoid.
New player accommodations will have to have a serious look at if they aren't just planning to ride off Hardcore players.
There should be an indication that I have an indicator on my screen to indicate things.
See, now you're just being a jackass about it ;D
Take off the elitist hat for a second and pretend like you know nothing about CT or SvM in general.
The ideas that need to be made of course wouldn't have to be (some not even making sense) the ideas that are stated here. A steep learning curve for SvM is a problem EVERYONE knows is true.
I just re-read your "Fix List" post from 2007, think up some Fixes (or *Gasp* whole new ideas) that could tailor to new players now.
QuoteSee, now you're just being a jackass about it
No u.
QuoteTake off the elitist hat for a second and pretend like you know nothing about CT or SvM in general.
Yea, that was me once upon a time. Somehow, I managed to learn how to play the game without an indication of an indicator indicating something to me.
How about you stop writing books about stupid shit, like the fact that nubs come on this forum and ask for asinine indications of shit you can find out by other means anyway. I mean, seriously, this guy asked for the crosshairs to indicate when you hit a shot when they already do that. Credibility = 0.
I would much rather the developers focus on finishing a playable game rather than building 10,000 redundant, optional indications. Sometimes, you just have to l2p.
I think the game should indicate when other players are around, but just a visual indication wouldn't be good enough. What if someone blind plays, like Ruro? It should be a sound, instead. And having it only activate when people are looking in the right direction sounds like it could be pretty buggy, and it'd definitely be ruined by lag, so just make it activate whenever someone's near you. We should simplify things for new players by giving it to both spies and mercs, too. May as well keep things as similar as possible for both teams, right? Less team specific stuff to learn means people will pick up the game faster, after all.
Can we test this out?
Quote from: Spekkio on June 26, 2010, 03:33:06 AM
QuoteTake off the elitist hat for a second and pretend like you know nothing about CT or SvM in general.
Yea, that was me once upon a time. Somehow, I managed to learn how to play the game without an indication of an indicator indicating something to me.
Yeah, let me bring back something you said to me in another thread...
Quote from: Spekkio on February 02, 2010, 05:43:26 AMI played CT more often than I'd like to admit from the day it was released until 3 years later. I never once saw more than 300ish players online at once, and that number was usually hit during European peak hours. American prime time (6-10pm) usually had about 150ish and quickly dwindled down to about 80ish after 6 months (European peak times went to 180ish) where it stayed for about a year or so until it took a nose dive into can't get a good game unless it's setup on xfire territory.
I got 500 as an added estimate from the popularity of the Xbox compared to PC. Honestly, when compared to 2.5 million sales in the first quarter of release, and presumably quite a bit more past that, it really doesn't matter if you even double or triple that number. It is still orders of magnitude smaller than the amount of people who purchased the game.
Do you believe what you said is because the game was fine how it was/is? That new and old players alike were on an even playing field no matter Who ended up with Who?
Wow, I hope PS get's THAT popular... [/sarcasm]
QuoteHow about you stop writing books about stupid shit, like the fact that nubs come on this forum and ask for asinine indications of shit you can find out by other means anyway.
Not every person that plays a game is as intuitive as you. Some people actually don't like running into a game blind with the mindset of, "I'll learn it as I go". Weird concept that the game they want to potentially have fun with... they'd actually want to be able to play before they jump into the arena of competition. Where you KNOW someone like Agent (Mah bad buddy, but you know it's true) will bash the shit out of them because they don't know what they're doing.
What was being asked, and what is being proposed here are simply MEANS for new players to jump in and actually have fun. NO ideas set in stone, Indicators of ANYTHING don't have to be added, but SOMETHING should.
QuoteI mean, seriously, this guy asked for the crosshairs to indicate when you hit a shot when they already do that. Credibility = 0.
Funny how half of the people on here bitched about how a Hit Indicator would be unfair... as if it wasn't in CT at all.
QuoteI would much rather the developers focus on finishing a playable game rather than building 10,000 redundant, optional indications. Sometimes, you just have to l2p.
No one said for the devs to STOP what their doing and start on THIS. Just simply that it will have to be looked at if, again, they aren't going to just ride off the hardcore gamers out there. (Or in other words. Those 500 people across all Consoles that CT had)
@rocketGood work riding off the response of someone else just to leave a reply that furthered... Nothing.
How many times is that now? :P
i thought you liked new ideas? here i go proposing one and instead you just talk shit
how about some constructive criticism or some reasons why it's a bad idea or something cronky, where are they? i always told you why your ideas were awful. instead you just instantly reject mine, why is that? because you've got something against me personally?
mods ban cronky he's hurting my feelings
QuoteDo you believe what you said is because the game was fine how it was/is? That new and old players alike were on an even playing field no matter Who ended up with Who?
The game wasn't popular for a multitude of reasons. Lacking an indication that an indicator is indicating something is at the bottom of the list, if it's even on there at all.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 26, 2010, 05:39:23 AM
i thought you liked new ideas? here i go proposing one and instead you just talk shit
how about some constructive criticism or some reasons why it's a bad idea or something cronky, where are they? i always told you why your ideas were awful. instead you just instantly reject mine, why is that? because you've got something against me personally?
mods ban cronky he's hurting my feelings
You wanted constructive criticism? Okie Dokie. I just didn't think you took that idea seriously, in which case I didn't either.
The concept is
GREAT. Blind players would probably LOVE this. Me being of the seeing variety only find this as a simple exploitable feature. Somehow you'd have to be able to toggle it off because as we all know... seeing AND hearing are overpowered in a game like this. Maybe the Host can turn it on!
Then comes the problem with those AWFUL liars that will just come into the game with their uber 20/20 vision. It would have to be regulated somehow so that maybe their account was tied to this special privilege. Considering Blind players are a Niche market, it wouldn't be too demanding for the devs to do this kind of account management by hand instead of making an automated system that will hand the privilege off to you.
As for keeping things as same as possible. I don't believe that's the case of WHY the game was so hard to grasp. It was the simple fact that...
-The only tutorial level you had to play was Spy. -It never even spoke about what to do about Mercs (Other than they are bad), nor even showed you what one looks like -Not all the gadgets were shown their actual purpose. Smoke (did it even teach you this one?) and Chaff aren't the end all of gadget variety. While you were supposed to take some knowledge from the Single Player Campaign... There were a multitude of gadgets that also weren't featured there either (HBS, Spy Bullets, Camo [you even have this in the training and they don't mention it], etc)
-
No automated match maker OR means of telling peoples skill levels meant that you could easily get set up in a game full of Pros. The game is based on Teamwork, and one weak link in a chain of TWO links means that there is no way that the other person will be able to make up for you. Granted that the other team isn't under the same handicap.
-Did I mention that you never had to play a Merc Training?Those kinds of things are what I disliked about SvM and it's treatment of new players. Which could be (and will have to be in the Training level sense) fixed by the time PS ACTUALLY comes out.
EDIT: (My thoughts on the training level. Unrelated to Response)If you make a Training level... HAND HOLD THE FUCK OUT OF THE PLAYER. That's the point of the whole level. Show them EVERYTHING, show them what it does, show them how they should avoid it.
I'm not saying make the first thing you give a player is an hour long explanation of the pros and cons of taking the HBS instead of Spy Bullets, but don't throw the player in knowing of only ONE gadget and how to treat Static Defenses.
It's like if I made an FPS and never told the player how to Shoot. Sure, they're going to figure it out, but it's that one person that ridicules the game because it took them a while. That's why the extra "Left Click to Shoot" prompt was put in.
KUDOS if the PS team can make a Training level that is clever and actually goes along with their game. Show the player what a Merc looks like by having them pass by a observation window that shows one getting interrogated. (How does the agency actually get it's info on places to go anyway?) It solves the problem of WHAT a Merc looks like, while not blatantly saying "Mercs are Bad. Look at this one standing in the middle of a room waiting for you to crack it's neck". Breaking immersion because you wanted to get it out as simply as possible.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 26, 2010, 05:51:08 AM
QuoteDo you believe what you said is because the game was fine how it was/is? That new and old players alike were on an even playing field no matter Who ended up with Who?
The game wasn't popular for a multitude of reasons. Lacking an indication that an indicator is indicating something is at the bottom of the list, if it's even on there at all.
The question here is what the solutions are to help new players in. I know I type a lot, but you had to at least read a LITTLE bit of it.
I even said above that indicators (Logical, though useless to people like you) aren't the ONLY things that
COULD (read that word very carefully) be added to solve part of such a problem.
You're throwing your own example of an "Indicator that indicates something that's being indicated" and trying to play it off like it's MY idea. Last time I said something about an indicator it was:
-A hit indicator: Which is already in CT as you mentioned.
-A shadow indicator/meter: Which seems useless to you AND me, but may help others that don't QUITE understand common sense. Dark = Potentially Hidden. (I know it's amazing that I understand that concept! :P)
Neither of those ideas were to be perceived as "THIS IS MY PERFECT IDEA THAT SOLVES THE PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED IMMEDIATELY". Instead as, "This might work... for a certain amount of people".
In fact, both of those ideas aren't even mine either.
why will you not take my ideas seriously cronky? whyyyyy?
ps the being in the dark indicator is already in the game. if you're in the dark your spy becomes dark. it's already there. you've got it already. you're suggesting they add something that's already there.
are you really so fucking stupid that you can't notice your spy not being lit up when you're in the shadows? actually, well, i guess you probably are.
huh
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 26, 2010, 06:47:17 AM
why will you not take my ideas seriously cronky? whyyyyy?
ps the being in the dark indicator is already in the game. if you're in the dark your spy becomes dark. it's already there. you've got it already. you're suggesting they add something that's already there.
are you really so fucking stupid that you can't notice your spy not being lit up when you're in the shadows? actually, well, i guess you probably are.
huh
I don't take you seriously because 90% of the time you're just being a twat. Much like your post proves.
BUT...
Are you really that stupid that you haven't read that I've never been TALKING ABOUT MYSELF. I know that the ideas proposed here are Stupid, or already are in the game. That's not the POINT.
Joe blow that finds this game and goes "I like 3rd person stealth... I like FPS's". He may not have the cognitive capability to understand that Darkness doesn't mean you wont get seen. Some people DO need it spelled out for them, and again... Make all these "Noob" options just that... OPTIONAL. Much like Berserk was optional in CT. If you don't like it... Don't play with it on, or find a way that at one point it never comes back.
Again (about the 4th time I've typed it)
NONE OF THESE IDEAS ARE MEANT TO BE TAKEN AS IF COMPLETE. They are simply ideas that point in the right direction of what SHOULD be done to accommodate NEW PLAYERS unlike Ubisoft did.
I find it amazing that you can't even imagine how someone might be confused with the gameplay mechanics of a game that has had such a specific, and short life span. Everyone didn't play Splinter Cell, but some may be willing to play THIS game....
NOW UH OH, you've found someone that has never played this type of game before, and thusly wont know what the fuck they're doing right away.
ACCOMMODATE, not change the game.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg823.imageshack.us%2Fimg823%2F6742%2Ffunl.jpg&hash=45a897f980bdf467fb1b2e02498a2442a9eff857)
maybe we should have like an anime girl who tells people that being in darkness is dark? i think cronky needs one, he can't work this shit out on his own
Aaaaand... we arrive here once again where you just end up being the douche that doesn't have anything useful to say, but still feels the need to reply.
Good work mate.
Really had me going there! Thought you might actually get to saying something worthwhile...
;)
EDIT:
Oh Ho, I see what you did there. You made ME do it!
Teach me to try and propose ideas when Cronky's around. He just trolls around and deliberately derails threads by asking for stupid shit like a DARK THINGS ARE DARK icon.
seriously cronky why do you have to be like this? do you hate PS so much that you troll threads/make idiotic suggestions so the end product will be worse than it could have been? is that it? why would you hate it so much?
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 26, 2010, 07:30:04 AM
Teach me to try and propose ideas when Cronky's around. He just trolls around and deliberately derails threads by asking for stupid shit like a DARK THINGS ARE DARK icon.
I find this funny.
You did propose an idea. If memory serves me right (from what... 30 minutes ago). After you clarified that you were serious instead of just mocking the idea of helping disadvantaged players, I agreed! :D
Hooray for opening avenues of new topic discussions.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 26, 2010, 07:30:04 AM
seriously cronky why do you have to be like this? do you hate PS so much that you troll threads/make idiotic suggestions so the end product will be worse than it could have been? is that it? why would you hate it so much?
Again funny (both funnies are my opinion. Just so we aren't confused here) because other than making PS an exact copy of CT with a couple balance issues worked out, and a graphical face lift... Nothing is changing.
CT SvM wasn't a perfect product by any means. Right now all that's really getting focused on is Good things that are trying to be made better. Instead of also fixing the bad things... to which it seems they'll just get brushed under the metaphoric carpet and never to be spoken of again.
Let's give a big Hoora for simplicity of game development when you use someone else's design as the whole foundation.
;)
(Damn, I fell for your trick tactic again!)
We're also fixing bad things. Auto-movement, bad controls, camo-activation bs, funnypunches, hitboxes, not being able to charge a hanging Spy etc.
Charging a hanging spy should make the spy fall at random.
I mean, there are situations where the spy will fall, and others when he will not.
But in both situations, you'd need the spy to get into an animation so you can't exploit it like in CT.
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 11:15:37 AM
We're also fixing bad things. Auto-movement, bad controls, camo-activation bs, funnypunches, hitboxes, not being able to charge a hanging Spy etc.
but omfg can't u see that ppl need to know that dark is dark and that they need indicators that they have indications of something? I mean, why stop at changing the color of the crosshairs when you hit someone? Why not have a gigantic yellow arrow point to the center of your screen and text that says "u hit him lolol!" Then the new people will be able to compete with the pr0s.
I'd have to re-play CT to verify that it actually shows a hit indicator. It's been some time since I last played it, with it crashing my PC...
Quote from: Spekkio on June 26, 2010, 01:24:39 PM
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 11:15:37 AM
We're also fixing bad things. Auto-movement, bad controls, camo-activation bs, funnypunches, hitboxes, not being able to charge a hanging Spy etc.
but omfg can't u see that ppl need to know that dark is dark and that they need indicators that they have indications of something? I mean, why stop at changing the color of the crosshairs when you hit someone? Why not have a gigantic yellow arrow point to the center of your screen and text that says "u hit him lolol!" Then the new people will be able to compete with the pr0s.
Ha, always so Clever!
Let's hope that all the small changes that are being made make the game appeal to more people than CT had.
Would hate to see a repeat! :P
Cronky, you're ignoring the elephant in the room...
Clearly you've never had the following conversation in CT:
-How u see me? I was dark
-Turn off your NV. It shows in EMF
-CHETS!
A lot of people expect human beings to react like AI; that's why ruro thinks that having a shadow indicator and detection indicator is a good idea. It's also why a lot of people suck terribly as spy after going through the singleplayer campaign. In reality, humans react nothing like the AI, and there's no way to predict whether or not you're actually seen by someone sitting at another computer. And as players gain more experience, they learn where to look for spies, so they might just hurl a grenade or shoot into a dark corner just as a guess. Your essays keep ignoring this one very simple, but basic fact. All the indicators in the world aren't going to make up for the fact that lobbing a grenade into the ceiling of MH in club house 7 seconds into the round will get a kill if the spy goes that way, even if I didn't know that before hand.
Oh my... this thread turned out to be a huge block of flaming, just great. And since its been proved that there is no need for this indicator then just drop the idea and close this damned thread. But it would be appreciated to hear out ideas or do something useful instead of bashing each other, which doesn't leads anywhere.
Hahahaha. No, actually, having an indicator would be awesome. Not.
Seriously though, there should be a tutorial map that explains the basics. Otherwise, well, people will be getting kicked alot more from my servers (ofc assuming that we'll get server hosting options).
Quote from: Ruro on June 26, 2010, 02:43:41 PM
Oh my... this thread turned out to be a huge block of flaming, just great. And since its been proved that there is no need for this indicator then just drop the idea and close this damned thread. But it would be appreciated to hear out ideas or do something useful instead of bashing each other, which doesn't leads anywhere.
Welcome to the community. This is what everybody does. ;D
If you noticed our latest Twitter updates, it said we have 2 mappers working (or working soon) on new maps. One of those being a Tutorial map.
Well, I get on twitter every couple of days, so I didn't see.
Don't worry, it was a general comment ;)
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 05:18:52 PM
If you noticed our latest Twitter updates, it said we have 2 mappers working (or working soon) on new maps. One of those being a Tutorial map.
Every game install we will have to make exam map ? Or I can just login into PS Network and play?
I have some nice ideas for separating the noobs from the already experienced players when there's a re-install. That should save the pros a lot of time.
Pros... not. You're a pro when you get money for doing what you're doing.
I'd say vets, but that's jsut me.
Also, about the system, what about having our account here linked to the game one?
iirc UT3 had something with accounts etc, but it was gamespy crap.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 26, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Cronky, you're ignoring the elephant in the room...
Clearly you've never had the following conversation in CT:
-How u see me? I was dark
-Turn off your NV. It shows in EMF
-CHETS!
A lot of people expect human beings to react like AI; that's why ruro thinks that having a shadow indicator and detection indicator is a good idea. It's also why a lot of people suck terribly as spy after going through the singleplayer campaign. In reality, humans react nothing like the AI, and there's no way to predict whether or not you're actually seen by someone sitting at another computer. And as players gain more experience, they learn where to look for spies, so they might just hurl a grenade or shoot into a dark corner just as a guess. Your essays keep ignoring this one very simple, but basic fact. All the indicators in the world aren't going to make up for the fact that lobbing a grenade into the ceiling of MH in club house 7 seconds into the round will get a kill if the spy goes that way, even if I didn't know that before hand.
The only things that're wrong about what you said about me is that I've never said that Indicators were the actual solution. They were an example of a POSSIBLE solution. One that MIGHT fix PART of it. Like if you've ever used Duct Tape. Never actually SOLVES the problem, but will hold it off till you get the means to actually fix whatever it is.
I believe the Training Level is the Actual solution. Have it explain EVERYTHING in a fun and creative way. Let the player decide exactly what they want or don't want to learn. That way, if they don't know something, it's their fault. OR if they want to learn more, they can go back.
Maps can still be handled by a "Learn as you play" (Or Visit A Map like CT. Which I used a lot) technique, but Gadgets, Game Mechanics, Controls, etc. would all be explained by the Training level.
Mercs would also have one (But for the sake of creativity make it a different place).
When I look back on CT SvM that is the biggest glaring Noob Killer. The training level basically taught you how to deal with 1 thing... and not even that well, It barely explained your objectives, and as for Merc... you never had to go through one for them.
Just my thoughts.
(Response to Spek ends here)
EDIT: My image of a "Training Level" is that of like the Spy Exam Map. One that suited their character because it was like an underground training facility. Expanding on that and having it suited to more situations are my thoughts.
Mercs would have the same type of training facility, but I imagine in some rag-tag, beatup warehouse.
Give each of the sides a different perspective on the game world they live in. Subtly giving the characters a backstory.
Of course though, simplicity would just be to make one map cater to both sides. Just doesn't sound as interesting. ;)
The game could say that you were in complete darkness, yet your background could be lit up and a merc can clearly see you. That indicator is therefore useless.
There's an indicator against AI opponents because they don't see a background. They can't see you if you are in the dark even if your silouhette is obvious.
That's what makes SvM against human opponents (cough, bots in DA, cough) infinite times better. You need good situational awareness to do well and an indicator wouldn't help.
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 01:27:47 PM
I'd have to re-play CT to verify that it actually shows a hit indicator. It's been some time since I last played it, with it crashing my PC...
Do you not trust us or something?
I just want to see it for myself. Then I can also see when it changes, the shape, color, how long it stays the color and other characteristics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITBxJ5FQ-v4
It works when you shoot enemies, too, but, y'know, finding spies. Fair bit of effort there, right?
Point taken.
I like the sound call of duty makes when you hit an enemy. And the little hash marks.
The blood splatters would be perfect. Having the blood glow slightly to see if your shots hit in dark areas and at distances wouldn't hurt either.
Glow as in maybe having it be a slightly richer red, or reflect light more as if it was shiny melted red metal.
I think it would be better to not see the blood splatters in the dark. It would be nice to see mercs tracking blood trails into darkness and using their flashlight to find the direction the spy went.
The hit indicator should be simple. Like the current one. Or like Ion mentioned, the COD sound wouldn't be bad either. In the light you should see blood and hear the sound. In the dark you just hear the sound and the blood wouldn't be visible given that it's dark enough.
A really cool visual effect would be having blood drip from a bullethole through a thin ceilling if you shoot a spy.
Maybe a sound would be a bad idea and only using blood would be a good alternative after all. It would leave more room for creativity I guess.
I just argued with myself.
yea this blood effects (that FraleyFan have written) can make our game unique.
Combining scary stealth with horror could be quite interesting. My only issue with blood is that it's over used in the gaming industry. I'm not saying that it would not work for this, but I don't want it to become "just another bloody effect" that I see in many other games. If uniqueness can be combined with purpose then it should be fine.
no horror i don't think mercs are afraid of spy.
This is starting to remind me of the rumors that Ghosts were in the Orphanage Level. :P
Quote from: Cronky on June 27, 2010, 07:02:25 PM
This is starting to remind me of the rumors that Ghosts were in the Orphanage Level. :P
There are ghosts in Orphanage. What is an orphanage without ghosts of little orphans? Honestly.
And I agree not to overdo the blood thing but I could see it working.
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 06:18:09 PM
I have some nice ideas for separating the noobs from the already experienced players when there's a re-install. That should save the pros a lot of time.
Just have some kind of server side stats tracker in terms of time played wins and losses if it's really an issue.
However, the old system where people just wrote skill levels in server titles worked just fine. There's really no reason to make up some intricate thing to separate players. Oh, and mandatory tutorials are epic fail.
Make the blood look like fear blood. Thick and a lot. Also, make it shiny green because it will match the spies goggles. Or, don't have blood. Or have a tiny bit. Tracking the blood on the ground would be funny and unrealistic but I can deal.
Tracking blood isn't unrealistic. Haven't you seen it in the movies?
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 27, 2010, 10:11:33 PM
Tracking blood isn't unrealistic. Haven't you seen it in the movies?
Yes! Of course! Movies are always realistic. D'oh!
Just messin' with ya ;)
Quote from: frvge on June 27, 2010, 10:17:29 PM
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 27, 2010, 10:11:33 PM
Tracking blood isn't unrealistic. Haven't you seen it in the movies?
Yes! Of course! Movies are always realistic. D'oh!
Just messin' with ya ;)
I wasn't being serious, fridge :D
Quote from: Spekkio on June 27, 2010, 08:49:42 PM
Just have some kind of server side stats tracker in terms of time played wins and losses if it's really an issue.
However, the old system where people just wrote skill levels in server titles worked just fine. There's really no reason to make up some intricate thing to separate players.
Yeah, that would probably be the easiest ways to go about it. Still have the problem of people that make dwarf accounts, but that's really rather minor.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 27, 2010, 08:49:42 PM
Oh, and mandatory tutorials are epic fail.
I'd agree with this if they were making any kind of Generic FPS. I think to solve that problem would be that if you have no time on said tracker mentioned above it recommended (in a... You
REALLY should do this way) that you play the tutorial level. Like many games do with some kind of prompt box.
That way
You could skip it, but those that are new would at least know that it's there. Perhaps also making players have to click one of those check boxes that says "Never show me this again". So that the EXTREMELY new would have a chance to see the recommendation more than once, or just for reassurance that they don't want to play the tutorial.
...Though I believe the PS team should still make a creative Training Level that explains Everything (unlike CT SvM Exam Map did) non-linearly so that you have the option to skip the parts you don't want/need to hear.
It should go like this:
You boot up the game.
A message pops up immediately - "If you have never played Spy versus Mercenary multiplayer then it is highly suggested that you play through >this< tutorial."
Another message - "Even if you have played it a little bit, you should probably check out >this< tutorial."
Another pop up - "Seriously man, this game's learning curve is pretty damn steep. >Tutorial< Click it."
And another - "Are you sure? >Tut<"
1 last message - "Since you are obviously so capable of your abilities, I'm sure you wouldn't mind me putting you into a match right now!"
*Play dramatic music and throw the player into a match with the legendary players like Mic, Spekkio, Agent, and Farleyfan* (we'd have different time slots for each of us to be in position) :P
If the player succeeds and the 3 other players judge that he/she is worthy, then the player can proceed without playing the 2 minute tutorial. This whole process of skipping the tutorial would be longer than actually doing the tutorial.
---
Seriously though. Just make it so that there are multiple warnings that we can quickly skip through and never worry about again. Hopefully newcomers will get the picture. If not, then it's trial by fire.
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 28, 2010, 12:01:38 AM
Seriously though. Just make it so that there are multiple warnings that we can quickly skip through and never worry about again. Hopefully newcomers will get the picture. If not, then it's trial by fire.
That's what I said. Just as usual, with 1800 extra words. ;D
Cutting it down as small as possible...
Prompt Box with recommendation to play tutorial. Checkbox or button that says "Never show me this prompt again".Pshhh, doesn't sound as good without 14 examples tied to it. ;)
Farley, I disagree. What you posted is highly annoying. I hate games that "remind" me to play a tutorial every goddamn time I click on something.
You know what? I'm literate and can read menus. So are most people playing video games, and if they aren't then pop-up menus harassing them to play the tutorial aren't going to help. I can read that there is an option called TUTORIAL on the list, and if I feel like I need to play through it, then I will. Where the hell do you get off telling me how I have to learn a game?
Seriously, what's with the elitist attitude on these forums that people are too stupid to learn how to play games without having every minor detail explicitly explained to them? Half of the learning curve of CT was working around all the stupid buggy shit that the PS team is aiming to fix, anyway. If you don't have silly shit like changing visions being able to cancel a high landing animation, EAX allowing players to hear you fart from across the map, being electrically naked doesn't really hide you from EMF and being still doesn't really hide you from MT, or climbing on shit cancel a knockdown animation, then you wouldn't have to create a tutorial explaining all that stuff, now would you?
Some stuff in games just has to be learned through experience, and given the limited amount of time the people working on this project have since it's a spare-time project, I'd much rather them work on smoothing out gameplay than creating an exhaustive tutorial. If you want to learn how a spy/merc controls and what stuff does, then start up a map by yourself and sandbox for a bit. You don't need to spend time coding a tutorial to get this functionality.
Once upon a time there were games that *gasp* didn't have in-game tutorials. Somehow, people managed to l2p. One of these games is Counter-Strike, one of the most popular multiplayer games of all time. There is little correlation between in-game tutorials and the popularity of games.
Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again. They should only show up after you install the game. I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist.
It's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist.
Obviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 28, 2010, 12:01:38 AM
legendary players like Mic, Spekkio, Agent, and Farleyfan
Hahaha. Maybe we should have a tournament to think this through ;)
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 28, 2010, 02:31:44 AM
Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again. They should only show up after you install the game. I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist.
Because A) it's annoying B) it's unnecessary and C) it implies that I, as an adult, can't make my own decision as to whether or not to play the tutorial and properly read a menu list. And the fact that it would popup upon every reinstall is even more annoying. I don't need a popup to tell me "oh hey, there's a tutorial option. don't you want to play it?" when I can see the tutorial option just fine and I obviously made a conscious decision not to play it if I didn't click on it. The worst is when games have that stupid popup before you even get to the menu screen... they have so little faith that they don't even give me a chance to read the menu screen; they just assume that's beyond my mental capabilities from the onset.
QuoteIt's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist.
How is giving people credit enough to figure out how to play a video game or read a menu elitist? Elitist is you guys saying "oh, we r superior a players so we have to teach nubs 2 play via tutorial or they'll never get it. Poor nubs. They'd be so lost without the super-awesome tutorial that even teaches you how to wipe your ass with a fail-safe 8 step procedure."
QuoteObviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.
Again, you can gain a feel for functional game mechanics by starting a server by yourself and firing up a map, or doing that with a friend to sandbox around. No need to waste time on building a tutorial for that. But really, there's no substitute for experience, so no matter how good the tutorial is people are going to get their asses beat on the first couple of rounds. SOP for online multiplayer.
Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.
Quote from: CurdyMilk on June 28, 2010, 02:32:40 AM
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 28, 2010, 12:01:38 AM
legendary players like Mic, Spekkio, Agent, and Farleyfan
Hahaha. Maybe we should have a tournament to think this through ;)
I'm so rusty, and my laptop is incapable of EAX = I run into silent proxies way too much. I'd play for old time's sake, though.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 28, 2010, 02:57:44 AM
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 28, 2010, 02:31:44 AM
Woah Spek, I said warnings that we can skip through and never worry about again. They should only show up after you install the game. I can't believe that you think a popup that says "you might wanna check out a tutorial if you're a newcomer" is offensive or elitist.
Because A) it's annoying B) it's unnecessary and C) it implies that I, as an adult, can't make my own decision as to whether or not to play the tutorial and properly read a menu list. And the fact that it would popup upon every reinstall is even more annoying. I don't need a popup to tell me "oh hey, there's a tutorial option. don't you want to play it?" when I can see the tutorial option just fine and I obviously made a conscious decision not to play it if I didn't click on it. The worst is when games have that stupid popup before you even get to the menu screen... they have so little faith that they don't even give me a chance to read the menu screen; they just assume that's beyond my mental capabilities from the onset.
QuoteIt's funny you call that elitist and yet your whole post sounded elitist.
How is giving people credit enough to figure out how to play a video game or read a menu elitist? Elitist is you guys saying "oh, we r superior a players so we have to teach nubs 2 play via tutorial or they'll never get it. Poor nubs. They'd be so lost without the super-awesome tutorial that even teaches you how to wipe your ass with a fail-safe 8 step procedure."
QuoteObviously a tutorial wouldn't explain all the nuances but it would save vets the trouble of explaining the basic idea of the game to the newcomers during the game.
Again, you can gain a feel for functional game mechanics by starting a server by yourself and firing up a map, or doing that with a friend to sandbox around. No need to waste time on building a tutorial for that. But really, there's no substitute for experience, so no matter how good the tutorial is people are going to get their asses beat on the first couple of rounds. SOP for online multiplayer.
Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.
You seem to blow things out of proportion a lot. I bet you go ape shit on yield signs or warning labels.
^^^
lol! omfg.
Perfect solution: Make the tutorial so hard that it anal rapes everyone so I don't have to play with 6 year olds. And by anal rape I mean full on no lube hard shaft.
i'm quite unsure how deep and interactive the tutorial should be. there should definitely be an option to get taught the basic gameplay mechanics and what it's all about. it's just freaking annoying playing with folks that don't get that the gameplay is meant to focus around the objectives and that communicating with your teammate is a really good idea.
there's nothing wrong with a little reminder that you might wanna go through the tutorial, as long as it isn't arrogant or annoying and can be skipped easily.
what i suggest both for matchmaking purposes and as an anti-fake-account measure is to highlight players with less than 10 hours playing time.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 28, 2010, 02:57:44 AM
Bottom line: the game needs a PDF game manual that explains how to play, including damage tables for weapons and effect duration times (that no one will read, but hey it's there, can be quickly updated with patches if you code it to extract data from the game's files, and doesn't require the same amount of time as coding a tutorial script and building dedicated tutorial maps that likewise no one will play), some game tips on loading screens, and that's it. Everything else can be discovered through sandboxing or playing online matches. And if you're too lazy to read the manual, then that's your own damn fault.
Here's the bottom line; this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck. There's no harm in including one, but there's no harm in including a tutorial level either; you seem to assume that because many SvM players didn't need a tutorial, that nobody else will. Compare the numbers CT sold with the amount of people who played the multiplayer game actively, and you'll find that most people either gave up or got bored of it. Tutorials are great provided that they're fun, you should get off your pedestal.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 28, 2010, 05:14:49 PM
this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck.
as much as this holds true i'd really like one to easily look up game mechanics stats.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 28, 2010, 05:14:49 PM
Tutorials are great provided that they're fun
many tutorials fail in that regard, but it's the most important point. a fun tutorial makes you wanna explore more all by yourself, a boring tutorial just makes you wanna get it over with. though i'm not sure it's worth the effort considering the very limited ressources of the ps team. i'd rather have a second map than a great tutorial.
Quote from: Rambo on June 29, 2010, 01:02:19 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 28, 2010, 05:14:49 PM
Tutorials are great provided that they're fun
many tutorials fail in that regard, but it's the most important point. a fun tutorial makes you wanna explore more all by yourself, a boring tutorial just makes you wanna get it over with. though i'm not sure it's worth the effort considering the very limited ressources of the ps team. i'd rather have a second map than a great tutorial.
The thing I have against only having a Manual (I think there should be one of those too) is that it encourages people to
Stop playing the game to read it. Just seems to be counter-productive.
Plus when comparing a Manual vs In-game level is that a Manual can only
Tell you something. A level can not only
Tell you the same thing, but also
Show you, and
Test you on it. Giving you the same info, if not more, while never stepping out of the game.
Quote from: Rambo on June 29, 2010, 01:02:19 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 28, 2010, 05:14:49 PM
this is a game, and PDF manuals are boring as fuck.
as much as this holds true i'd really like one to easily look up game mechanics stats.
I totally agree :). Like I said, "there's no harm in including one".
There is harm in including a tutorial in two ways:
1) If it's forced upon me and wastes my time, like the SCCT tutorial and incessant "hey, you've never played this map. Maybe you should use the visit a map function!" every time the game is reinstalled or patched.
2) If it detracts from other real content, ie the game has 2 maps and a tutorial vs. 3 maps. This is particularly detrimental if the tutorial has no real value, which most don't since they're usually geared toward people who have apparently never played a single video game in their lives.
Also, people say reading a manual is boring...well, spending 3x that amount of time to play through a tutorial is even more boring. If you have a way to make stupid shit like "press shift to jump"...*player presses shift*..."great, now press c to crouch..." fun and interesting, I'd love to hear it. Good thing we have that announcer, too, cuz the poor guys playing the game couldn't have started a map and figured that out on their own in half the time.
Cronky, yes people have to stop playing the game to read a manual, but they also won't be playing online while they go through a tutorial.
QuoteI bet you go ape shit on yield signs or warning labels.
I don't hate warning labels, but I do hate
excessive warnings, especially about obvious shit. There is a big difference.
How about having an awesomely done qick-time-event that shows all of the moves in the actual animation in the aproptiate situation.
Would take up a minute or two, nothing more, and would be at least amusing if done right.
Since this is the only one that was addressed to me...
Quote from: Spekkio on June 30, 2010, 12:27:12 AM
Cronky, yes people have to stop playing the game to read a manual, but they also won't be playing online while they go through a tutorial.
Yes, either way you go about this the player isn't playing the game online. One just tells the person to
Stop playing the game, and one
Deviates them from the actual content.
My point was that a Manual by itself isn't preferred. Each one has their own strengths when it comes to what they will tell.
Manual - Good for statistics and descriptions
Tutorial - Good for Practice and usability
Plus people prefer different things. You obviously prefer reading a Manual. I, playing a tutorial. Again, each is optional and I assume the PS Devs know what kind of "Newbie" prompts to avoid. (ex. Visit this map)
Quote from: Succubus Dryad Of The Undying Comet on June 30, 2010, 12:51:07 AM
How about having an awesomely done qick-time-event that shows all of the moves in the actual animation in the aproptiate situation.
Would take up a minute or two, nothing more, and would be at least amusing if done right.
Ooooooh man. Each button press being the appropriate button in game (Spy is going to jump, you have to press Shift
...or space ...whatever the button was)!
Talk about Fast Tracking the learning process! THIS COULD WORK! :P
QuoteI don't hate warning labels, but I do hate excessive warnings, especially about obvious shit. There is a big difference.
Warnings are not specifically tailored to every specific person. The warning label didn't walk up to you and say "Hey, bet you aren't smart enough to know what I know!"
Warnings and notifications are for the people who aren't smart enough. So ignore them and be on your merry way.
Ironically though, the people that warnings are designed for are usually not even smart enough to notice the warning in the first place.
You know the "no running" signs around swimming pools? Or the "no diving" signs around the kiddie pools? You may say "man, those things are insulting and redundant" until an idiot dives head first into a 3 year old standing in the kiddie pool.
I don't think a friendly reminder (with a smiley face) that says "newcomers may want to check out the tutorial" would/should/could be offensive to anyone! Shake it off, no one is calling you in particular stupid, Spek.
Quote from: Spekkio on June 30, 2010, 12:27:12 AM
There is harm in including a tutorial in two ways:
1) If it's forced upon me and wastes my time, like the SCCT tutorial and incessant "hey, you've never played this map. Maybe you should use the visit a map function!" every time the game is reinstalled or patched.
That doesn't make including a tutorial a bad thing, that's an issue with the presentation of the game. You wouldn't say that including gameplay is harmful because some games have bad gameplay... the same applies here.
2) If it detracts from other real content, ie the game has 2 maps and a tutorial vs. 3 maps. This is particularly detrimental if the tutorial has no real value, which most don't since they're usually geared toward people who have apparently never played a single video game in their lives.
How can a tutorial detract from other content? I would say it allows the other content to be further enjoyed, as tutorials help players to get the most out of the gameplay ;). Again, you come back to the quality of particular tutorials... that doesn't make tutorials a bad thing, these are just problems of particular games. A tutorial is 'real' content.
Also, people say reading a manual is boring...well, spending 3x that amount of time to play through a tutorial is even more boring. If you have a way to make stupid shit like "press shift to jump"...*player presses shift*..."great, now press c to crouch..." fun and interesting, I'd love to hear it. Good thing we have that announcer, too, cuz the poor guys playing the game couldn't have started a map and figured that out on their own in half the time.
That would be boring, but luckily for us tutorials don't usually serve to teach players the controls, they primarily teach the player how to play the game; there's a difference. As many games have proven, the controls can easily be shown during the loading screens before a game begins. Also, an announcer is usually more interesting than a block of text, I find.
Stating examples of bad tutorials does not make tutorials a bad thing.
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 30, 2010, 03:10:48 PM
How can a tutorial detract from other content?
Do you need an anime girl telling you that people who are working on tutorials aren't working on things other than tutorials?
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 30, 2010, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 30, 2010, 03:10:48 PM
How can a tutorial detract from other content?
Do you need an anime girl telling you that people who are working on tutorials aren't working on things other than tutorials?
Isn't a tutorial the last thing you make for a game?
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 30, 2010, 10:22:40 PM
Quote from: Volcano Eel on June 30, 2010, 07:14:38 PM
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on June 30, 2010, 03:10:48 PM
How can a tutorial detract from other content?
Do you need an anime girl telling you that people who are working on tutorials aren't working on things other than tutorials?
Isn't a tutorial the last thing you make for a game?
Can't you use Rocket's line for pretty much anything being done?
If you're working on Anything... then you aren't working on anything else.
Unless you are...
...In which case...
...This is hurting my brain.
Yeah if comicserg is making all the merc animations then he's not making the spy animations in which case the game will take too long to make wahhh wahh
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fken_ashford.typepad.com%2Fphotos%2Funcategorized%2Fcrying_baby.jpg&hash=6db9b8fe511ad72cf6f877c700290a138c7a4c8f)
You know, that response alone made me laugh, but that picture really took it to another level.
Laughing in the middle of a room full of people = a room full of weird looks. YOU'RE RUINING MY INTERNET BROWSING SECRECY WHILE AT WORK! Couple more of those responses and the jigs up.
;)
Quote from: FarleyFan on June 30, 2010, 11:23:41 PM
Yeah if comicserg is making all the merc animations then he's not making the spy animations in which case the game will take too long to make wahhh wahh
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fken_ashford.typepad.com%2Fphotos%2Funcategorized%2Fcrying_baby.jpg&hash=6db9b8fe511ad72cf6f877c700290a138c7a4c8f)
At least merc animations are actually useful.
Quote from: Spekkio on July 01, 2010, 12:23:04 AM
At least merc animations are actually useful.
...Hrmm...
Funny. Tutorials are also useful. You just fail to see why, or if you do understand why... then you just like to bitch and moan about how it's apparently going to prolong the development of the game to some unimaginable point in time.
Farley brought up a good point, You don't make the tutorial till after the game is done. The game CAN be released without a tutorial, but one should be expected to be put in. Same could be said about the Manual you'd rather have.
Quote from: Cronky on June 30, 2010, 11:13:20 PM
If you're working on Anything... then you aren't working on anything else.
See, you
can work these things out on your own! You don't need an icon to tell you that darkness is dark at all!
Your next mission is to work out how capital letters are used.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 01, 2010, 06:36:57 AM
Quote from: Cronky on June 30, 2010, 11:13:20 PM
If you're working on Anything... then you aren't working on anything else.
See, you can work these things out on your own! You don't need an icon to tell you that darkness is dark at all!
Your next mission is to work out how capital letters are used.
What? I Don't Get What You Mean?
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 01, 2010, 06:36:57 AM
Quote from: Cronky on June 30, 2010, 11:13:20 PM
If you're working on Anything... then you aren't working on anything else.
See, you can work these things out on your own! You don't need an icon to tell you that darkness is dark at all!
Your next mission is to work out how capital letters are used.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fraluxa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Ftrlht.jpg&hash=ecccf3a0f085d2757eb1c94ffab6c4f1c356f261)
Quote from: Spekkio on July 01, 2010, 12:23:04 AM
At least merc animations are actually useful.
After all the feedback you've had on your argument, this is a pretty ignorant point to make.
maybe going wild on the tutorial isn't really the way to go. considering the target group are players that think for themselfes and have fun exploring new stuff, it might be a good idea just to cover the basic svm mechanics.
less can be more, especially when dev time is such a rare ressource like with ps.
If you had an optional tutorial map that could be played, chosen on the menu screen showing the processes of the spy and merc....problem solved. Now quit bitchin.
All you guys who so desperately want a tutorial map should go make one yourself. They just magically appear with no effort, so it shouldn't be hard, right?
Quote from: Rambo on July 02, 2010, 12:35:57 AM
maybe going wild on the tutorial isn't really the way to go. considering the target group are players that think for themselves and have fun exploring new stuff, it might be a good idea just to cover the basic svm mechanics.
less can be more, especially when dev time is such a rare resource like with ps.
I understand what you mean by this, and there can be a happy medium between Over Explaining everything, and giving enough info for even the most dependent of players can feel comfortable. My main problem with CT's Exam map was that it gave far too little. It MADE you explore 95% of it's available content. While okay for those that played the game even till now, it really can put other potential players off.
I definitely wouldn't want the tutorial to be anything like America's Army 1 (if any of you ever played) where you are FORCED to play through real life Field Training exercises... Or as real as a game will get. Taking tests after each and every "Class". Having to Identify the difference between allied tanks, and enemy tanks... to which the game had none actually in game. Tie off a tourniquet. Parachute land. Identify guns. Get scores on Target Ranges. All to play the equivalent to a poor copy of Counter Strike.
Make stuff optional, and for the tutorial... make it have the ability to be expandable. Go minimalistic first and just tell controls and basic mechanics. Later on if you see that maybe new people don't understand a certain aspect or gadgets. Have the tutorial expand with another "Part" to solve the mystery.
Simplest way to go about this (Don't mistake that as me thinking it's easy to make) would probably be to just split the tutorial into many really really small, specific levels. Such as a person clicks on "Tutorial" on the main screen, the background dims and they are presented with a selection of specific elements like:
-Spy Controls
-Spy Gadget Overview
-Merc Controls
-Merc Gadget Overview
So instead of making ONE map that encompasses EVERYTHING you make Tiny maps that serve a specific purpose.
(I assume making smaller, single purpose maps would go faster than trying to make one big one that tries to flow everything together. Like CT's Exam Map)
OR... Now that I've read past Rambos Post... Westfall put it quite simply...
Quote from: Westfall on July 02, 2010, 02:17:04 AM
If you had an optional tutorial map that could be played, chosen on the menu screen showing the processes of the spy and merc....problem solved. Now quit bitchin.
Yeah... what he said. ;D
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 02, 2010, 08:38:47 AM
All you guys who so desperately want a tutorial map should go make one yourself. They just magically appear with no effort, so it shouldn't be hard, right?
No one ever said that they were EASY to make. Just that it should be included. It DOES take up time, it CAN lead to potentially less stuff, but Frvge has said many times before that they hope that the community will contribute in the way of Maps, Ideas, etc. Content will grow as the fanbase grows. (Theoretically)
And again, they can tackle these at their own convenience. Tutorials/Manuals aren't NEEDED to play the game. They help people get used to the game, but the game CAN be released without either. Whether they want to do it before the Beta (if there is one), or after the final build is up to them.
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 02, 2010, 08:38:47 AM
All you guys who so desperately want a tutorial map should go make one yourself. They just magically appear with no effort, so it shouldn't be hard, right?
You should make the beta yourself.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funnyhub.com%2Fcontent_images%2F5687_2844_stupid-philip-rivers-face.jpg&hash=7d6a993406d76364a91c2b68d39db1541218992d)
i like cronky's module idea.
Loading screen tips
"How is babby formed?"
"They need to do way instain mother!"
Quote from: FarleyFan on July 02, 2010, 08:16:42 PM
You should make the beta yourself.
Hey, you're the one trying to get the devs to do more work adding a tutorial that won't even help very much. I'm happy with what they're doing. You're apparently not. If you don't like how things are going, you should fix it yourself, rather than just whining to other people to do it.
Maybe you could even make a mod that replaces tazers with flamethrowers, wouldn't that be nice?
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 03, 2010, 10:57:12 AM
I'm happy with what they're doing.
Quote from: frvge on June 26, 2010, 05:18:52 PM
If you noticed our latest Twitter updates, it said we have 2 mappers working (or working soon) on new maps. One of those being a Tutorial map.
I'm happy with what they're already doing too.
;D
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 03, 2010, 10:57:12 AM
Hey, you're the one trying to get the devs to do more work adding a tutorial that won't even help very much. I'm happy with what they're doing. You're apparently not. If you don't like how things are going, you should fix it yourself, rather than just whining to other people to do it.
They are already making a tutorial map afaik, maybe you could
fix this yourself by murdering the mapper?
Quit acting like you're looking out for the dev's best interests.
yeah, you got me, i don't give a fuck about the game at all. i'm really posting here because i just hate tutorial maps, and i want to see them eliminated. just you've seen through my subtle machinations and have ruined eeeeeverything.
srsly man
Heeeeeeeey.... I see what you did there.
You're being sarcastic. ;)
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 03, 2010, 04:14:13 PM
yeah, you got me, i don't give a fuck about the game at all. i'm really posting here because i just hate tutorial maps, and i want to see them eliminated. just you've seen through my subtle machinations and have ruined eeeeeverything.
srsly man
I haven't accused of you any of this, so can we take this as you coming out and admitting it?
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 03, 2010, 10:57:12 AM
Hey, you're the one trying to get the devs to do more work adding a tutorial that won't even help very much. I'm happy with what they're doing. You're apparently not. If you don't like how things are going, you should fix it yourself, rather than just whining to other people to do it.
Maybe you could even make a mod that replaces tazers with flamethrowers, wouldn't that be nice?
It's very blind of you to suggest that we can just fix the problems ourselves; the majority of the people on this forum have no experience in game development. However, most of us have lots of experience with SvM. The development team exists for a reason, and there's no reason why we can't give guidance.
Quote from: FarleyFan on July 03, 2010, 08:46:04 PM
I haven't accused of you any of this, so can we take this as you coming out and admitting it?
Absolutely.
Alright we've gone too far off topic.
I'll take some responsibility for that I guess.
Now this is a stretch on the topic, but here we go.
So in Lakehouse... the Boat Room has Water in it. I assume no one would be able to touch it, but that doesn't change the fact that there will be water in game. (This holds little relevance to what comes next, but I'm just connecting random dots to form this)
Now to the real part. Is there potential to new kind of Environmental "Traps"? Say something like... Fire alarm sprinklers that distort Merc visions (Visual Feedback ;))/default Spies out of Camo. Kind of like the Fire Extinguishers in CT fogging up the Merc screen.
Also will the fire extinguishers be making a comeback?
holy shit
cronky has made a suggestion that is not fucking terrible
not sure how to react to this :/
Yeah that goes back to map interactivity. Which in my opinion is a great thing. The more the better as long as it isn't totally gimmicky all around. Has to have a gameplay purpose, right? Not saying your suggestions don't Cronky - they do - just making a random point lol
Quote from: Volcano Eel on July 04, 2010, 09:31:14 AM
holy shit
cronky has made a suggestion that is not fucking terrible
not sure how to react to this :/
A (backhanded) compliment from Noop. I'm a little surprised!
Just give me a couple more posts though, I'll go back to being stupid. :P
(Perhaps I can try to do this faster than a couple!)
Quote from: FarleyFan on July 04, 2010, 09:34:52 AM
Yeah that goes back to map interactivity. Which in my opinion is a great thing. The more the better as long as it isn't totally gimmicky all around. Has to have a gameplay purpose, right? Not saying your suggestions don't Cronky - they do - just making a random point lol
Yeah, I agree. There is potential with it all but definitely should be kept to a minimum. Sprinkler system is all I can really think of now that could work for/against both sides. In my head (this is dangerous territory now) there is a lot of ways that this can implemented.
What do you guys think is better?
-Timed: Much like Fire extinguishers. After a certain period of time they just stop.
-Permanent: Like the explosion room (Forgot the actual name) in... Factory I believe. Once it's activated it never can be stopped. (Sorta bad example, but you get what I mean)
-Toggleable: Like the Steam Room in Aquarius. Able to be shut off, but you have to do it manually.
If Map Interactivity has come up before, what were some other worthwhile ideas that were brought up?
I like the toggle-able ones the most. Shutting down a light source with a lever and powering it back on, blocking a path/closing a door or opening it, shutting down a conveyor belt carrying boxes that triggers motion tracking or powering it back on.
But permanent ones also have potential if done in a clever manner by the mapper himself. I don't know why but I always liked the effects in Aquarius. The smoke in Tech, sprinklers from disc, and lights from pirates, those effects are also nicely done in that they are only achieved after accomplishing an objective.
Permanent changes to the map should only happen after a spy completes an objective, imo.
Temporary changes would obviously be open to anyone at any time. It adds a strategic element and could hopefully prevent objective camping by mercs. These are CT's hacking panels but they don't have to be merely panels. I say get creative. Pushing switches, pulling levers, cutting wires to disrupt mercenary communications until a merc repairs the wires, etc...
Now I'm off topic again.
Yeah, Aquarius was a well put together level in that sense, and you're right; each duration type holds a purpose. Mappers would have to be creative with what they want to do with it. Sounds like Toggle-able ones fits Sprinklers pretty well.
My next question would be how to set them off...
Should Spies be able to set them off with their SS? Or is it only accessible to them by way of panels?
Would a Merc be able to set it off with a Grenade, Flare, and/or (in range) Mine? (Fire... Sprinkler System)
Would the possibilities of a Lasting Effect Prior to the idea be possible. Such as Puddles on the ground. Leading to perhaps... a slightly higher damage on the Taser, or more open shot to SS people as Spy?
(Just another idea thrown out there for the sake of discussion. Haven't actually put thought into whether it's balanced or not. Or even if it would be fun to add those)
Quote from: FarleyFan on July 04, 2010, 10:05:35 AM
cutting wires to disrupt mercenary communications until a merc repairs the wires
This gives me another idea. Might have already been brought up.
Would it be possible for Spy Bullets to do a similar deal as you mentioned here? (I'm counting this on topic because of Audible Feedback) Such as your Team-Chat becomes Fuzzy, or cuts out (Imagine person on cellphone with bad reception).
Spies would be able to hear them clearly, and get their position. Merc's would get the obvious notification that they have been Spy Bullet-ed. Meaning that the Gadgets functionality on a direct shot becomes more limited, but also more dramatic. Making the indirect shot (Proximity Detection) more unique. Perhaps also giving the indirect shot Team-Chat listening ability (Forget if it already did that). Giving more reason to pick Spy Bullets over HBS.
(Again, just another thought. Not much thinking put into it)
cutting wires is cool :D and All that cool stuff that you've(FarleyFan) been saying can add a lot of variety in the game and it's good because it will be not boring to play even the same map over and over
Depends on the wishes of the mapper. In theory, everything is possible (as long as we have an animator and a programmer on it ;) )
Everything's Possible...
What sounds cool to me is if you had a background story for each side that's told vaguely through the maps!
(What follows is Extremely Off-Topic. I suggest you stop reading and just move along with your day. I took total disregard to anything that is already said about the game's story.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two "Ending" Maps.
Merc Cloning Facility: (Little weird how you can have Merc... Clones... But WHATEVA)
Deep in the snowy depths of the Alaskan Tundra lies a secret base that holds the means of the Mercenary Army. A base located at the... base of a Mountain. A big Armored door is faceted to a dug out wall in the side of said mountain. (Think... Polar Base-like)
Level is a 3 part operation (When playing story mode). Played much like Warehouse. Spies spawn outside of the base.
First objective is Neutralization. 3 hack spots. One inside of a building, one near a big armored door, one at an explosive charge near a rocky wall (Separated, but connected to the same wall as the Armored Door).
From there the mode changes to Sabotage (CT or PT Style). Sabotage spots placed on a number of doors within a science-y looking facility located beyond the Armored Door. Clean and Sterile, it contrasts to the rugged, natural scene that you witness outside, but keeps the same color scheme of blankets of white. Most lights knocked out by the explosion you caused with the charge outside (As to create shadows). Other entrances include a secret hatch from the building the hack spot was in the first objective, and the other being the explosive charge that punches a hole directly into the facility. Either Sabotage style, by completing the objective it overrides the doors and gains you access to the final area deep within this facility.
The Cloning area. Very dark with ambient light coming from tubes of liquid with light filtered through it. "Premature" or in some areas "Defective" Merc clones are scattered around this area. You see many in progress Mercs as for the avid looker to understand exactly how they were made, but this is all beside the point.
This last room culminates with a Multi-objective type of gameplay. Each of them baring some kind of significance to finishing the "Story". Extraction is taking the power core from the Merc Cloning Machines main reactor; signs acknowledging a radioactive meltdown if said power core was to be taken. Neutralization is hacking the main servers of this room; this suggests that you then fudge up whatever they're doing there and render everything dead. Sabotage (CT Style) has you planing a bomb on a huge cache of Merc Equipment; this suggests that you set off the equivalent of a A-BOMB in that facility. Two objectives must be done here.
That is the end of the Mercenary Threat....
*Start Round 2 and break any kind of Immersion to a story that was very loosely garnered through this levels concept and design.*
War-torn Spy HQ:
All I really think about this level is that it suggests that the Mercs found the Spy HQ and are takin shit down. Broken down from the initial attack, you see many blood stains, and quite a few bodies lying around from the battle the ensued. Merc's Spawn in random areas around the base (As to assume they are a clean up crew, or something). Spies Spawn either at an Entrance, or on top of a freight elevator area that is the "Backdoor" to getting into the HQ.
Somehow it would incorporate the Training Level(s) (Depending on what style of training level(s) is/are made). Broken down, but anyone who played the Training Level would instantly recognize it. Flesh out the facility a little more from your limited view of it that you got while learning the ropes of the game.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I totally just made up that it's a Government Organization Vs a Secret Science-Oriented PMC Group Plot.
If you wasted your time reading the whole thing.... Well then you wasted some time. ;)
Arcing storylines over multiple maps were one of my personal ideas like 2 years ago, but we decided against it AFAIK.
Yeah, probably is for the best.
Wouldn't "Limit" creativity when it comes to maps, but would definitely set a Standard.
Like... Could you imagine a CT map that look place on a Space Ship or something? Not sure how you would figure Spies and Mercs onto a Space Ship, but if someone did. I'm bettin that it would have gone against what you expected to come from a CT Map (in a bad way, unless the map was actually good).
Lakehouse is a good one. I just hope someone comes up with something creepy to play through.
Remake Orphanage, but when Mercs hit certain parts of the map their hud goes a little fuzzy. Also every once in a while a whispering is heard by both teams. One tiny notch of health is taken away at random. If someone happens to die then as they watch the deathcam they see ghosts of children all around their body.
I not only want to be scared by Mercs. I want to think something else is out there trying to take both teams down.
;D
Some of your ideas are good, but the idea of ghosts taking your health away at random is ridiculous; punishing for players for no reason but theme is pretty silly :P
Quote from: Cronky on July 04, 2010, 01:39:50 PM
Lakehouse is a good one. I just hope someone comes up with something creepy to play through.
Remake Orphanage
Oh don't worry ;)
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on July 04, 2010, 04:28:37 PM
Some of your ideas are good, but the idea of ghosts taking your health away at random is ridiculous; punishing for players for no reason but theme is pretty silly :P
Yeah, I GUESS you're right ;)
You hadn't even heard of my final revision to solve that. Cause if there's something strange, in your neighborhood; who ya gonna call?
_____ _______!
(Nah, you're definitely right. Wasn't intended to be taken seriously past the point of "...Something creepy to play through...".)
QuoteNot sure how you would figure Spies and Mercs onto a Space Ship
April 6th, 2017
An unknown distress beacon is beaming from Mars. Intelligence suggests that is quite possibly an alien life form due to the mysterious language present in the beacon. A private party wishes to be the first to capture an alien and so hires mercenaries to either kill/capture an alien. The party arranges a space voyage for the mercenaries with the Russian space program in exchange for a portion of the findings.
An American intelligence agency discovers the deal made by the Russians and the private party. Agents are dispatched to stow away onboard the shuttle and recover intelligence linking the Russians and the private party. Secondary objectives are to discover the source of the distress beacon and recover evidence. The agents are successfully hidden on the shuttle taking the 2 highly trained mercenaries to Mars.
The Russian shuttle finally lands on Mars and the spies and mercenaries set out to do their mission. The mercenaries are completely oblivious to the presence of the spies and upon confrontation believe they are hostile aliens trying to sabotage the ship.
Just some cool ideas: If a merc dies you could see him come out of a cryo chamber or something when he respawns. A spy would be able to walk the surface of Mars freely and a merc would have to use his gas mask to walk outside. A disc/recovery objective could be in the wreckage of the crashed alien space craft. Frozen alien bodies would be seen in the cargo area of the shuttle.
We don't have a general story to allow backstories of individual map concepts like above. Yes, that was done on purpose.
I know Mr. Serious
Cronky was having an acid trip and I was fuelling his imagination with some of mine.
M.C. Escher inspired Level must be done.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhightouchconcept.files.wordpress.com%2F2007%2F06%2Fmc_escher_relativity_623x600.jpg&hash=d1bfea76db92182b45d8b728cdcdbe2b1517ca49)
That is all.
1
Looks like a camper's paradise. He'd literally be able to see the whole map from a staircase, and I hate staircase campers!
Oh HO.
The Objectives are on the other side of the doors!
Best not venture far, because the maze to get to them is a Brain Melter!
Goin up the stairs and goin down the stairs, going up the stairs and goin down the sideways stairs.
Hahahahahaha
Nicely Played.
You win this round. :P
Any damage you do to a spy, your reticule will change colour (Red on PC) Even by grenade, mine or any sort of damage you caused.