TL DR VERSION AT THE BOTTOM!
Today I had a huge argument with my college friends and it ended up a draw, but I ofcourse need a confirm of what you think:
I am doing an Art and Design Diploma which covers:
3D Design (Chairs, Lamps, Architecture etc.)
Fine Art (Communication through the painting with different meanings)
Graphic Illustration (Fonts, Layout, Book Cover, Prints)
Animation (History of animation, stop frame, Adobe Flash)
Textiles (Sewing, Weaving, Cloths, Dyes)
Photography (Different ways to take a picture, interesting perspectives)
And afterwards for the rest of the 5 months we will be doing a Project based on what we like and what we learned from all of those all projects.
(The course is 2 years)
To my opinion, being succesful at art, fundamentals is a must, we aren't really being taught how to draw humans and what we like, they only gave us life drawing and see if we were interested enough to use that to learn the proportions, but it's not really enough (They don't even set homework for that)
So in the end, my opinion of being a good artist is:
Do an Art and Design course that covers a lot of different techniques and projects(Animation, Fine Art) and find out specilization.
Now obviously I do everything bit by bit ranging from:
3D max (Worm)
3D max biped animation
Sketching with a pencil or a pen (Those are main, I use other stuff like chalk and colored pencils as well they are great for coloring)
Photoshop Wacom sketching (Character Design, Draw cartoons ranging from humans to human mixes of various of different species)
Game Design on a sketchbook, draw different types of menus, layouts, character customizations, anything that a game really needs (even a storyline) I do that on a sketchbook
I always draw, I stream to be the best and heck I already proved that to them by rubbing my DeviantArt page in their face because it's up to you but none of them have an external portfolio and half of them don't even know why they chose art as their subject...
ARGUMENT:
The argument started by where I am being fed bullshit that Game Designers apparantely need to know how to program and how to do 3D modelling and be able to sketch like a Concept Artist to the quality of (Let's pick Goodkebab)
then I retaliate by saying it's not true, you can be a good game designer by writing your idea of your game in a sketchbook, expanding and explaining what each button on the keyboard will allow, listing all the controls, what they do, how they affect your character in the environment, also character customization, menu's etc and detailed to the point of where I can give this to either a programmer or an artist and they will use THEIR skills to create the artwork, models, animations, and programmers will do physics, coding, scripting whatever is needed to make the stuff run.
And to me, all these bullshit:
Game Design courses?!
Media?!
and similiar stuff, all of that crap can be learned through the basic course of Art and Design, and there is nothing in the Game Design or Media courses will tell me that they won't explain or be able to show me in a greatest depth and detail in an Art and Design course.
To me it's a waste of money for the college, it shows how lazy people got that they want to go straight into the action and be pro.
To me, there are no shortcuts to art, you must draw, you must learn different things, you must experiment because at the end of the day, noone will be able to take away your style, your markmaking your passion for different materials such as paint and other things, and as well as, a lot of the times companies love to see some of your stuff raw after they call you back.
Let's say I drew a Project Stealth spy first with acryllic paint and then with photoshop both from scratch, if I show the one digitally and next to it with the paint and they look identical and the acryllic one might be even better because it's got the natural paint effect and grip to the canvas textures it gives fresh things to the developers.
But that's my opinion. And I want yours, especially on the part of that Game Designers need to know Programming and Art skills which to me is complete bullshit -.-
TL:DR version:
Do Game Designers need to know programming or art skills to be succesful at their job?
P.S. I am also sure that Game Designers also might know one of the or if very talented both areas in basic manner, but definitely not the point of uber professionalism...
QuoteA game designer is a person who designs gameplay, conceiving and designing the rules and structure of a game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_designer#Game_designer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_designer#Game_designer)
Nope. It would certainly be useful, but it is not necessary to be successful at the job.
I've always been under the assumption, like Venomous said, that Game Designers don't NEED to know, but it's good to know. Game Designers should certainly be creative, and should understand games. If they are creating a game, then it's probably better that they understand art to an extent, or programming to know what's possible (or how difficult something would be to implement).
It's like a Singer in a band. When they write lyrics they should have a general knowledge of the instruments in the band. Also an understanding Rhythm, Tempo, etc etc. to make sure they make a good song. Sure, "screamo metal" bands are the exception to this if you're into that sort of thing, but I generally see them as just annoying.
You become a "Cool" Game Designer if you actually code or do some art for the game though. You're less of a voice in the sky, and more of an actual worker in the trenches. ;)
Yeah but they definitely don't need stuff like 3D modelling, maybe small things but definitely not stuff of being able to create a 400 hour HD model, or know about stuff like what every binary means and etc.
Obviously it's quite needed to have quite a good knowledge just to get a headstart with imagination and stuff and it's good, but that doesn't mean that I have to be an absolute awesome drawer to do that...
I'm not a Game Designer because we don't really have one. Then again, I know my way around programming, have read articles about photorealistic 3D art, watched some Maya tutorials, watched tutorials and read lots of books about Unreal Editor and did some music composition in the past. Gives me an excellent eye for detail, without being actually able to make things perfect personally.
Quote from: frvge on June 09, 2011, 01:02:03 AM
I'm not a Game Designer because we don't really have one. Then again, I know my way around programming, have read articles about photorealistic 3D art, watched some Maya tutorials, watched tutorials and read lots of books about Unreal Editor and did some music composition in the past. Gives me an excellent eye for detail, without being actually able to make things perfect personally.
but all and all at the end of the day , the people of PS have made a game , so despite the non-perfectionism
it still shows you that one can make a game , if they have the passion and desire to do so.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 09, 2011, 01:20:21 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 09, 2011, 01:02:03 AM
I'm not a Game Designer because we don't really have one. Then again, I know my way around programming, have read articles about photorealistic 3D art, watched some Maya tutorials, watched tutorials and read lots of books about Unreal Editor and did some music composition in the past. Gives me an excellent eye for detail, without being actually able to make things perfect personally.
but all and all at the end of the day , the people of PS have made a game , so despite the non-perfectionism
it still shows you that one can make a game , if they have the passion and desire to do so.
@Agent This is exactly why your posts get removed. I'm sorry developers, but Project Stealth can't be counted as a serious "Game Design" there is just too much similiarities taken from Chaos Theory that it's not serious enough.
@Frvge would you be able to create a game design that you would be able to give to both of the parties and they would understand it?
Cause to me I doubt you need more than that. If I can create a game on an A4 Sketchbook and present it and they make a game out of it, my job is done.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 12:59:13 AM
Yeah but they definitely don't need stuff like 3D modelling, maybe small things but definitely not stuff of being able to create a 400 hour HD model, or know about stuff like what every binary means and etc.
Obviously it's quite needed to have quite a good knowledge just to get a headstart with imagination and stuff and it's good, but that doesn't mean that I have to be an absolute awesome drawer to do that...
From what I think everyone's best guess is, you're right. It definitely helps to know a lot of stuff of different varieties, but it's not ESSENTIAL. You could come up with the greatest game ever without ever learning a line of code, but knowing the limits and general practices of coding means that you can better explain to a programmer what you want them to do. Same with art, animation, 3D Modeling, etc.
A game designer sounds like it's essentially the movie director, but of games.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 01:37:03 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 09, 2011, 01:20:21 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 09, 2011, 01:02:03 AM
I'm not a Game Designer because we don't really have one. Then again, I know my way around programming, have read articles about photorealistic 3D art, watched some Maya tutorials, watched tutorials and read lots of books about Unreal Editor and did some music composition in the past. Gives me an excellent eye for detail, without being actually able to make things perfect personally.
but all and all at the end of the day , the people of PS have made a game , so despite the non-perfectionism
it still shows you that one can make a game , if they have the passion and desire to do so.
@Agent This is exactly why your posts get removed. I'm sorry developers, but Project Stealth can't be counted as a serious "Game Design" there is just too much similiarities taken from Chaos Theory that it's not serious enough.
@Frvge would you be able to create a game design that you would be able to give to both of the parties and they would understand it?
Cause to me I doubt you need more than that. If I can create a game on an A4 Sketchbook and present it and they make a game out of it, my job is done.
Don't knock Agent just because you think that similar means the same. They still have to think, and they are adding to PS what CT never had. They have the ability to change and twist anything they want with the gameplay, but that takes the ability to step back and see if it's worth the hassle/will it work. Sure, the basic concept was done for them, but everything past that is a foreign land all it's own.
Also a game designer's job wouldn't be to just hand someone some scribbled sketches and say, "Make this". No matter how detailed it is, the point of their job sounds like it's to maintain and find out what works and what doesn't. You're not the writer, you're not the art director, you're not the head of animation, and not the head programmer. You'd be the guy that goes, "I think Kratos would benefit from having a Strong Attack move. All these enemies are dying awfully slow and it's slowing down the pace of the game".
Quote from: Cronky on June 09, 2011, 01:50:33 AM
Also a game designer's job wouldn't be to just hand someone some scribbled sketches and say, "Make this". No matter how detailed it is, the point of their job sounds like it's to maintain and find out what works and what doesn't. You're not the writer, you're not the art director, you're not the head of animation, and not the head programmer. You'd be the guy that goes, "I think Kratos would benefit from having a Strong Attack move. All these enemies are dying awfully slow and it's slowing down the pace of the game".
True, but that's where the foundations can start, and obviously those things will be passed to the lead employee's and from them it will go to the production.
At the time I started my Naruto game design which you Cronky know well of, I didn't have any strong abilities to draw but I knew how to sketch things, and that was somewhere 5 months ago.
Right now I have 7 sketchbooks of 250 pages each fully filled with all the information needed to create the game. I used crappy figurative sketching of my capability back then just to show what I meant and used notes.
I wont argue that 7 sketchbooks (of 250 pages each) wouldn't help people understand the concept of a game if it were being made. That might actually be TOO much information, to be honest.
::RANT::
My problem with that game of yours, and what I don't think you yet understand, is the plausibility of a game such as that being made. Since it's my assumption that people (in a development company) pitch a game to a publisher, who gives them money to develop, doesn't just then let them go until the game is done. Time constraints, money constraints, technical constraints, employee constraints, etc etc. all come into making a game. As much as people want to think, "*insert company* make games because they love making games"; Publishers want developers make games because they are a business and want a return on their money. The bigger your name, the looser the constraints, but that also takes into account the idea that said company is proposing.
Sure, Bioware could make a FPS, but they would have to prove to a publisher that they could actually make a FPS since it's not their forte as of now.
Duke Nukem Forever was simply kept alive because, at first, the switching of engines was viable monetarily. They had just come out with the hit Duke Nukem 3D back in the day, so their leash was very loose, and their wallet was never-ending. Eventually they ran out of money anyway and had to get Gearbox Software to take over and self fund the finishing of the game. Hype on it's eventual release (thus ensured money) probably fueled Gearbox actually taking this potentially risky product. Though if you take their videos literally than it was just Randy Pitchford having his late Nukem boner re-wet by the head of 3D Realms when they eventually came "begging".
::END RANT::
Your idea, when it was told to me, sounded like you pretty much just thought, "Why has nobody taken all the good parts of every game genre and put them in one game?". That, and the fact that you said you wanted Blizzard to make a Naruto game(which I still think there is a 0% chance of), all culminates into the idea that just because you can fill 7 sketchbooks full of ideas for 1 game doesn't mean that game will be "good".
I don't mean to say your idea, when explained to me, was bad. Just that it didn't seem plausible because of your lack of consideration on both a technical front, and also on strengths and ideologies of certain game companies.
-----
I typed a lot again! GARRRGH! Perhaps what I said was me talking out my ass, but if someone sees anything I got wrong then be sure to correct it.
Yeah, I guess for them it would be kind of odd so it will be like a last minute idea if anything.
But at least now I know that my friends can be crossed off the "Ask advice from" list.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 03:01:07 PM
Yeah, I guess for them it would be kind of odd so it will be like a last minute idea if anything.
But at least now I know that my friends can be crossed off the "Ask advice from" list.
LoL , why wouldn't you ask Kebab or someone that has been in the game industry ?
gg.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 01:37:03 AM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on June 09, 2011, 01:20:21 AM
Quote from: frvge on June 09, 2011, 01:02:03 AM
I'm not a Game Designer because we don't really have one. Then again, I know my way around programming, have read articles about photorealistic 3D art, watched some Maya tutorials, watched tutorials and read lots of books about Unreal Editor and did some music composition in the past. Gives me an excellent eye for detail, without being actually able to make things perfect personally.
but all and all at the end of the day , the people of PS have made a game , so despite the non-perfectionism
it still shows you that one can make a game , if they have the passion and desire to do so.
@Agent This is exactly why your posts get removed. I'm sorry developers, but Project Stealth can't be counted as a serious "Game Design" there is just too much similiarities taken from Chaos Theory that it's not serious enough.
That's like saying any anime is unoriginal because it all looks the same.
To be succesful at any career you should know all aspects of what your job entails. Sure you may be a programmer and not need to draw but it helps to understand drawing and how an artist arrives at their creation. Likewise, a game artist needs to know a little about programming to know how their artwork will be adapted to a game. They may have to design artwork around the programming and as such would need to know something about it but not necessarily need to know how to program.
I do automated controls programming but I still need to know about electrical, mechanical, and several aspects of different discipline to be good at what I do. If I just stuck to the one or two main things in what I do I wouldn't be as effective at my job. Same goes for programming and drawing. You may not need to know both 100% but to have a decent knowledge of both will make you better at what you do.
Learning new things is never a bad idea unless you want to be pigeon-holed into one task for the rest of your life. Diversity in what you do will make you more valuable to any employer.
Absolutely, I'm also learning 3D modelling just to have something good in combination with my art skills, but for now...
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
Sketch
Draw
:|
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 01:37:03 AM
@Agent This is exactly why your posts get removed. I'm sorry developers, but Project Stealth can't be counted as a serious "Game Design" there is just too much similiarities taken from Chaos Theory that it's not serious enough.
This is by far the most ignorant, foolish thing I've ever seen posted on this forum. PS's gameplay is indeed similar to CT. However it still requires us to design and build it from the ground up, modifying and changing things as we see fit. With your logic, every FPS game after Wolfenstein 3D isn't 'serious' game design since the basic gameplay of a guy with a gun shooting enemies is the same.
Overall, it's similar. Not the same. The extra bits we add, remove and change have big gameplay consequences. We're just barely starting to make changes as we've just recently (well, a couple of months) begun making the actual gameplay. But some things will definitly change in how you will play the game.
It should be noted that although we are drawing from a specific game genre for inspiration, we have approached PS in the same manner developers in the past approached designing a FPS when those were new. You look at the fundamental game mechanics needed to place your game into the genre you are aiming for and then you look at what the previous game or games have done and you tweak it to make improvements and to make it a better game than the predecessor. Just because you aren't re-inventing the wheel doesn't dictate how "serious" of a development team you are.
While SCPT and SCCT may not have been executed to standards we the consumer were satisfied with does not mean Ubi's design template for multiplayer was flawed. The template is solid enough for use in establishing a new genre of game. Rather than attempting to re-invent the SvM style gameplay we are striving to improve it and provide a game that while not necessarily unique is instead fun to play and continues a genre that no one has stepped up to continue on with.
We have the advantage of not being tied to a schedule or financial restrictions. Nor do we have a corporate entity breathing down our necks to release by a certain date. All of us on the team and I'm sure all of you would love to see a finished product that has all the elements you loved in SCPT and SCCT but in a more stable, better looking and fun to play package. This provides not only the current SvM fans with a game they want to play but also opens the doors to drawing new players into the SvM community.
Ohh ok, my apology.
@Zed that's a very good point and again I apologize.
@AgentX You as well then, 10 points for a good post for once :)
And again thanks to the posters for answers.
Quote from: DreadStunLock on June 09, 2011, 11:34:04 PM
Ohh ok, my apology.
@Zed that's a very good point and again I apologize.
@AgentX You as well then, 10 points for a good post for once :)
And again thanks to the posters for answers.
Apology accepted.