Hey, had a thought today while working on PS (I know, right?! I'm actually putting some time in the project!) and I was thinking... what if there was a 'gadget' -- the reason I put the word in single quotation marks, is because it wouldn't be an actual selectable gadget in the inventory, but rather a gadget activated at all times. It would allow you to see the gadget selection of the enemy team, displayed on the HUD, as well as the number of each item they have left in their inventory. I think it would bring new strategies to the table, being able to see, as a spy, if the number of mines in their inventory has changed, and base your moves on the newly placed mines near the enemies current location. As well as being able to justify, more easily due to a low inventory count, simply knocking out a mercenary instead of going straight for a neck break. I'm going to cut this short and allow a little discussion, since I haven't seen some good discussion in awhile of these forums. So get at it. What do you think?
Well... I actually liked this part about counting the stuff the enemy used and I personally wouldn't find it so useful. However its interesting, let's see what others say.
I think it's overpowered. PS is IMO a so-called 'blind' game: you don't know the exact status of the opponent. Compare chess, which is open, to stratego.
If it would be an extension of the heartbeat sensor, then maybe, but only if it has a really bad counterpart, like only being able to use it for 3 secs every minute.
Would be nice to have a mine tag option or a gadget sub ability to tag placed mines that would appear on the a radar once you lock on to them, and the tag would dissapear once the mine is removed and re placed.
No, keeping track of this information by yourself is very important. It makes for more diverse gameplay. By spoon feeding that information to the opposition the game becomes much more predictable, which is a bad thing.
How about this ability draining the full energy bar? That would limit its use by:
1. Not being able to use Taze/Camo right before it.
2. Not being able to use Taze/Camo after it.
and maybe we could add in, that for 5 seconds you can not use any spy visions.
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Of course we could just include the "Gadget-Trojan" into the Spy Bullet.
Why add it in the first place if it makes the gameplay worse? Find good ideas, not ways to shoehorn in bad ones (no offense tigaer).
I am actually still freaked out by the idea of not being able to chaff through the walls....
Mercenaries reduced hearing...
No MT sillhouttes...jesus...
Speaking of which, what about the ability to run to a mine, and run back and not die from the damage? You know the aggressive mine disables? Can we have that removed too?
No, that's directly related to the mine first beeping before it explodes. We can make it instant, but that removes the fun.
I agree with the others on this one. Trying to remember of the opponent's inventory is part of the mystery and fun. Keep it the way it is.
So, you guys don't think sacrificing a gadget slot for something like this would be a sufficient sacrifice for the ability to simply view the enemies inventory, when most of the games there is a sort of 'stock inventory', atleast on the mercenary side that everybody uses anyways? I personally feel that it would be map, and game style specific, much like the HBS. Anyways, I like the discussion. Keep it coming.
Whenever I played SCCT, I would always have a chart, everytime a nade was shot, I'd just dot it, and it's easier to remember ;)
Quote from: tigaer on March 24, 2012, 07:50:07 AM
So, you guys don't think sacrificing a gadget slot for something like this would be a sufficient sacrifice for the ability to simply view the enemies inventory, when most of the games there is a sort of 'stock inventory', atleast on the mercenary side that everybody uses anyways? I personally feel that it would be map, and game style specific, much like the HBS. Anyways, I like the discussion. Keep it coming.
That's true, but I don't see what it adds to the game. I don't see how showing the enemy's inventory makes the game better, for me it would just remove a level of skill from the game. Imagine adding that in a game like Counter Strike, people would go nuts, especially the competitive community. Not knowing whether the enemy has a flashbang in CSS can be the difference between taking a risky strategy or playing it safe, the same would apply here. Losing that would harm the gameplay in my opinion.
I don't think you should get told what items the other team even has, let alone how many of them they have left.
It should not be possible to mark mines. I even can't imagine that big icon infront of me which will show proxy over the corner.
After some time you know all standard mines by heart - no need to hear them to avoid them (:
And it just came to my head right now - will be merc laser visible and it will feature spy marking ? I think due to that you could see whole laser in ct without thermal vision this feature was useless.
Seriously it's easy to count every single gadget of enemy team if needed.
btw. Do you remember map view in ct during matches ?
What about being able to open something like this and draw simple lines that your mate will see on his map ?
Ofcourse it makes u visible on emf and it takes 1-1.5 seconds to open and close it.
Too bad many custom maps in CT haven't got this so it might be useless in PS too, if mapper will not add map image.
Speaking of maps, will you guys do a small minimap of the complex in a top right corner like DA had?
No, this is not planned.
Quote from: KnoogeR on March 25, 2012, 07:17:09 PM
btw. Do you remember map view in ct during matches ?
What about being able to open something like this and draw simple lines that your mate will see on his map ?
Of course it makes u visible on emf and it takes 1-1.5 seconds to open and close it.
Too bad many custom maps in CT haven't got this so it might be useless in PS too, if mapper will not add map image.
I like this idea. I'm going to go off on a whole big ol' thing about my thoughts on how this could be something semi-useful.
Spy/Merc Base Ability - Map View:I imagine that anyone in a round would have the ability to both have a Map View of the game and also be able to draw on it. Combined with Knooger's idea this means that the person doing this would be see-able via EMF (or spy equivalent) when viewing the map, getting in and out of the map, and also the time it takes to draw on the map.
Gadget Version - Advanced Intel:If you decide to take this gadget then you get an upgraded, more convenient and also clearer version of the base ability above. While you do still have the ability to draw on the map, you will also have a set of icons on said map. This way instead of drawing a complicated diagram to explain what you want your partner to do, or what you want to warn them about, you would instead just simply put down an icon with the representation of a Mine, for example, meaning, "A mine is located here or nearby". There would be a bit of icons for things of the such, including a couple directions (like an icon for "Go here"). You took a gadget slot, but what you got in return was convenience. Along with...
Advanced Intel - Painting a target:This part of the idea goes a lot like Portal 2's communication system (when you have no mics).
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F8yGTSCE9k64%2Fhqdefault.jpg&hash=e974fff15e3389475b47865947eaaf0f043da246)
Kind of a smart, quick way of informing a teammate of what you want to do or what a point of interest is. What you would do is take whatever item of choice would be used for such a thing (gun? binoculars?), and hold a button. You would be presented with the same types of icons you have inside of the Map View. Though these icons would be more context sensitive. If you're pointing at the ground then icons pertaining to directions would be shown, not so much the Mines or particular objects icons (though these are still accessible). On the other hand if you point at a Mine then the icons that come up with default on the item's icon. The default icon it starts on can save you time trying to navigate through the icon menu and quickly get the information out there.
Painting a target has a risk reward going along with some items also, aside from updating the map view without viewing and placing icons yourself. As mentioned above, if you point at a mine the icon that this system will default to is the Mine icon. If you place that icon then you will notice on the map that there is a slightly different icon represented there (perhaps the mine icon with a little square bordering it). This means the icon is painted. When that mine blows up or is disabled, the mine icon on the map will also disappear. You can only do this with static items though. That means that painting a Merc has little difference in affect than it does when simply placing an icon in the map view. It will show where the Merc is when you painted him, but wont follow him if he moves to a different area (that's what the Spy Bullet/Trap is for).
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With that the gadgets purpose is kinda done. What you trade for in a gadget slot is returned with convenience and an alternate way to communicate. It may not help in the sense that a grenade can kill a spy, but it does help with communicating with your teammate. Communication being something that is hard to come by in a quick and easy fashion when you or your teammate does not have a Mic.
Also on top of this the Map view will hold the information of the Spy Bullet/Alarms/ect. that has a visual on the short range mini-map also. So if you have a Merc Spy Bulleted then you can follow him on the Mini-map or the Map View... map. Plus this bypasses the Spy Trap/Bullet's ability to hack communication (arguably the best part of a Spy Trap/Bullet. Hell, there is no argument. It just is.).
OOOOOOR you skip all this gadget business and just give it all as a base ability.
Cronky... if frvge really implemented this into a gadget, then it would make the game really unfair, because people with mics have 1 more gadget, than the ones without mic.
I think this is something that would be - in one way or another - possible in PS 1.9 or something... but not now.
While I admit this sounds like a one sided gadget towards those without mics, in reality, it really isn't. This gadget would benefits Mic and Mic-less users in near equal ways. While those without Mics may benefit from it MORE since it can pinpoint communication easier, it is by no means needed. You still have the ability to Chat in-game and also (if this idea is implemented as is) you would be able to draw on the Map to communicate more complex plans (at the cost of time).
This doesn't lessen the gadgets usefulness to those with Mics though. Talking may nix the need to draw on the map, but you might not always be able to explain your situation in as much detail as would be needed for your teammate to understand fully. This is especially true if your teammate is not well versed in the game.
What the gadget would do is simply give convenience in the time it takes to use the map ability, while benefiting teamwork to those who use it well. (added plus of not HAVING to get a Mic while still focusing on teamwork, and also this avoids the Spy Bullet/Traps ability to hack communications)
I approve of the painting idea, but I don't like the map ideas for in-game stuff. Pre-game planning with a partner in a training mode would be ok for the maps, but not in real matches.
The plus of the painting is that the Spies will need to be nearby, or more specifically: be near the line of sight. Basically, it paints the point you're aiming at in the view of the partner for a short period, like 2 secs. This means the other Spy needs to be able to see that point.
Quote from: frvge on March 27, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
I approve of the painting idea, but I don't like the map ideas for in-game stuff. Pre-game planning with a partner in a training mode would be ok for the maps, but not in real matches.
The plus of the painting is that the Spies will need to be nearby, or more specifically: be near the line of sight. Basically, it paints the point you're aiming at in the view of the partner for a short period, like 2 secs. This means the other Spy needs to be able to see that point.
+1
Another idea is to include short commands to teammate like "I Cover", "One here", Two Here", "Help", "HACK!", "Heal!" etc. it could be binded by default on numpad or below F1-F12 buttons. I had macro for this some time ago in CT - pretty useful if while playing with random mate.
Well, it's hard to speak about balance since we can't play game, first weeks since release will be most important for balance-wise. ;)
Now a little offtopic by me:
Frvge is gasmask etc. done already? It's server-sided or client-sided? Remember in CT gasmask never ever had any delay due to pings etc. on 500 ms servers you are able to wear your mask aganist quick cams without problems. I hope PS is not going to change this. ::)
Quote from: frvge on March 27, 2012, 07:18:33 PM
I approve of the painting idea, but I don't like the map ideas for in-game stuff. Pre-game planning with a partner in a training mode would be ok for the maps, but not in real matches.
The plus of the painting is that the Spies will need to be nearby, or more specifically: be near the line of sight. Basically, it paints the point you're aiming at in the view of the partner for a short period, like 2 secs. This means the other Spy needs to be able to see that point.
I do like that for the painting idea. It might be a little too close knit for my tastes, but I could see what you're getting at Frvge. The only part I'm uneasy about (mainly because I'm still in the first ideas mindset) is that, if painting takes a gadget slot, then it's purpose is very limited baring the fact that both Spies have to have a line of sight on what you're painting, in your idea (if I read that right).
All this map stuff that I was talking about before was under the impression that you aren't always playing with someone that you know. that you don't have the luxury of doing some practice rounds before. That you wanted to do a "Quick Match" of sorts without the need to already have a teammate in mind that you've played with in the past.
One of the biggest problems I had with SvM as a whole is that it wasn't as easily enjoyable to play with random people. If you happened to pop into a random game and your teammate didn't have a mic then you were pretty much screwed. Unless of course the teammate was good solo. SvM was a game about teamwork, but encouraged players to focus on their solo game if they wanted to play at random. You had to be under the impression that a random game means that you would have to carry your team to victory.
The map idea from before allows this to a simpler extent. You could make each match have a planning time of a minute (customizable via the host) in which players can make a basic plan on how you want to go at the map in question. Those with the Advanced intel gadget would be able to make a more complicated plan in less time with general icons used instead of drawing. This moves on in-game with the ability to paint targets to the map for your teammate to read, even if you two split up.
Painting would not require a gadget slot. It'd be the same as in Portal 2.
That makes more sense then. Is there plans for any kind of quick say thing(?) like in say... L4D or TF2 (or a multitude of other games)? Those like, "Follow me", "I need help", "Merc ahead", etc. etc.? I'm interested in how PS will handle those players who aren't as interested in finding a specific partner to practice with, and how you will keep them enjoying the game. How will you guys secure the teamwork aspect of the game to those that may have less skill, or less means of communication?
On top of that, if you had those quick say things from above, would a Spy Bullet catch them? Or would it only catch Mic communication?
Also Frvge, don't forget that Knooger asked a question:
Quote from: KnoogeR on March 27, 2012, 07:43:27 PM
Now a little offtopic by me:
Frvge is gasmask etc. done already? It's server-sided or client-sided? Remember in CT gasmask never ever had any delay due to pings etc. on 500 ms servers you are able to wear your mask aganist quick cams without problems. I hope PS is not going to change this. ::)
Didnt start on that.
I think these ideas would be better suited to like an optional game mode as apposed to something thats implemented into every aspect of the game. Having more game modes isnt a bad idea (Or a means to change stuff in the options for example). It could work in that case. Not dismissing his ideas outright, but providing another possible way to include some of them.
EDIT: I really like the "marking a target" system Gears 3 uses. Very similar to Portal 2, but in an actual MP environment you can see how well works. For those that are familiar with that game.
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on March 30, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
I think these ideas would be better suited to like an optional game mode as apposed to something thats implemented into every aspect of the game. Having more game modes isnt a bad idea (Or a means to change stuff in the options for example). It could work in that case. Not dismissing his ideas outright, but providing another possible way to include some of them.
EDIT: I really like the "marking a target" system Gears 3 uses. Very similar to Portal 2, but in an actual MP environment you can see how well works. For those that are familiar with that game.
Are you talking about Tigaer's idea, or the idea I brought up?
I would get Tigaer's idea needing a new mode. I think it would especially work well if it was included in the idea he had in a thread a while back where the Spy would have a pistol. It would be at that point that the ability to see how many items a Merc (or Spy) has left might be a useful piece of information as to expect what type of strategy the other team might try (assuming this mode was simply a deathmatch with no objectives other than killing).
If you are talking about the one I brought up, then I don't see how painting targets would need a new game mode. Even if you took my whole idea in to account (with the Map View elements) it would only give advantages to communication with your teammate.
Quote from: Cronky on March 30, 2012, 11:49:00 PM
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on March 30, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
I think these ideas would be better suited to like an optional game mode as apposed to something thats implemented into every aspect of the game. Having more game modes isnt a bad idea (Or a means to change stuff in the options for example). It could work in that case. Not dismissing his ideas outright, but providing another possible way to include some of them.
EDIT: I really like the "marking a target" system Gears 3 uses. Very similar to Portal 2, but in an actual MP environment you can see how well works. For those that are familiar with that game.
Are you talking about Tigaer's idea, or the idea I brought up?
I would get Tigaer's idea needing a new mode. I think it would especially work well if it was included in the idea he had in a thread a while back where the Spy would have a pistol. It would be at that point that the ability to see how many items a Merc (or Spy) has left might be a useful piece of information as to expect what type of strategy the other team might try (assuming this mode was simply a deathmatch with no objectives other than killing).
If you are talking about the one I brought up, then I don't see how painting targets would need a new game mode. Even if you took my whole idea in to account (with the Map View elements) it would only give advantages to communication with your teammate.
I meant the seeing ammo idea, not the painting targets.
Quote from: tigaer on March 24, 2012, 07:50:07 AM
So, you guys don't think sacrificing a gadget slot for something like this would be a sufficient sacrifice for the ability to simply view the enemies inventory, when most of the games there is a sort of 'stock inventory', atleast on the mercenary side that everybody uses anyways? I personally feel that it would be map, and game style specific, much like the HBS. Anyways, I like the discussion. Keep it coming.
then you would know there's a cleverly placed mine somewhere if you cannot find it, bad idea IMHO.