Here's an idea, how about before the game starts, the mercs get to decide where their lasers and cameras would go by placing them where they think would be effective or tricky. This could be a separate game mode if you wanted I guess.
I think it would reinforce the stealthy and ginger gameplay of the spies. It would also keep people from becoming unfairly good at a map, so then newer players could be included more easily.
The lasers would only go a certain range, and same with the cameras. They could also have a restriction for how close together they can be.
Tell me what you think!
This would certainly make it harder for the spies. But maybe including this into some kind of "pro mode", where mercs can do what you decribed, but spies also have more spawn points they can choose from and additionally some lights are switched off.
The problem i see with this is, if this can be done with UDK tecnically. Well since i am not a dev memeber i cannot say much about it. Also in CT there was a tendency for mercs to win, so the game should not be made too hard for spies. Aside from that this could make spy players angry because they have to wait for the mercs to set up their devices...
I think it could harm the map design and make for imbalanced gameplay. Also over complicates things in my opinion.
yep kills the mapper thought. Its already ahrd to do it in the first place when designing the map and would be just dumb afterwards, so thats a NO. But spark mandriell will be happy you taht you fit in...
Haha alright i can see the difficulty in it now.
Thanks for the feedback though
No! No! No! You say sth like:
- Oh yea and I think you re too lame for that mode its just for hardcores, you NOOB!
and keep going like that untill page ten... Or simply:
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-M4kYTdl9IxM%2FTjgpAnQNuoI%2FAAAAAAAADCI%2FiHGMbNOHEis%2Fs1600%2Fbitch-please-cat-cats-kitten-kitty-pic-picture-funny-lolcat-cute-fun-lovely-photo-images.jpg&hash=1a3edf714ddb14fe0c80ee84b90b3372e8c8286e)
Quote from: Pusianka on March 29, 2012, 09:52:44 PM
No! No! No! You say sth like:
- Oh yea and I think you re too lame for that mode its just for hardcores, you NOOB!
and keep going like that untill page ten... Or simply:
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-M4kYTdl9IxM%2FTjgpAnQNuoI%2FAAAAAAAADCI%2FiHGMbNOHEis%2Fs1600%2Fbitch-please-cat-cats-kitten-kitty-pic-picture-funny-lolcat-cute-fun-lovely-photo-images.jpg&hash=1a3edf714ddb14fe0c80ee84b90b3372e8c8286e)
and then you double post for better effect...
I would be interested maybe not in manual placement, but perhaps some random (or alternate) placement for certain static defenses in a map. That way it would be mapper oriented, but could also have a certain extent of randomness so every level doesn't always play the same.
I do understand though that balancing a map without this is hard enough. It seems like it may be worthwhile though if it could make a map more... dynamic... in a sense. Of course every map wouldn't need this kind of attention or feature.
I think that randomization is a great idea! It would make the idea more plausible. my main concern is having a certain clich winning mostly from map memorization, not skill. The idea would keep the mentality of stealth alive so they don't just blindly run into places just because they already know where the security is, while the average players are left behind still keeping an extra eye out for tricky traps they have yet to memorize.
Another idea I would nominate for an optional game mode.
How about a "hardcore mode", where there are no gadgets and no visions? And to balance it more: Merc without beserk and laser.
Oh almost forgot the most important for hardcore mode: NO HUD.
So the only things available are Spy tazer, merc gun and CQC/jumps.
Well maybe i make an own thread for this later, as it seems that i got offtopic.
Stupid idea Meister_Neo, it would be so easy to win versus even good merc team if they haven't got nades, mines (:
Hardcore even sounds stupid and reminds me of bad games we have to play nowadays.
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on March 30, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
Another idea I would nominate for an optional game mode.
While I could understand some of the times when people say this statement, I cannot follow why you would say it here. Assuming you're talking about the random/alternate placement of some Static Defenses on maps when you said this then what way does this necessitate a new game mode?
It would simply be building a map that has alternate placements of static defenses. You don't want to play "Story" mode with this kind of randomness? Then don't play this map. Again, the idea isn't meant to be a part of EVERY map, but those maps that are built with this type of feature in mind.
If you meant the original idea of Merc's placing the static defenses themselves, then it's already been agreed that no map would be able to do that without breaking the balance to an unfair extent.
Quote from: Cronky on March 30, 2012, 11:37:03 PM
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on March 30, 2012, 03:19:34 PM
Another idea I would nominate for an optional game mode.
While I could understand some of the times when people say this statement, I cannot follow why you would say it here. Assuming you're talking about the random/alternate placement of some Static Defenses on maps when you said this then what way does this necessitate a new game mode?
It would simply be building a map that has alternate placements of static defenses. You don't want to play "Story" mode with this kind of randomness? Then don't play this map. Again, the idea isn't meant to be a part of EVERY map, but those maps that are built with this type of feature in mind.
If you meant the original idea of Merc's placing the static defenses themselves, then it's already been agreed that no map would be able to do that without breaking the balance to an unfair extent.
Maybe not that exactly, but an optional game mode where the other side decides load outs for the other team or something to that effect? Not so much as handicapping a person/team, but adding a layer of strategy to a game by limiting what can and cant be used by the other team during a game in progress. I see it as something that can be selected before a match begins and even during a game in progress, but only after death, but before respawn. (So this would probably only work under Deathmatch type rules) This would force teams favoring certain weapons or gadgets to change up their strategy and tactics on the fly, again not meant as any kind of handicap, just a different game mode of fun and strategy. Also, since players would be allowed to change their selection for the other team after each death, this would prevent a team from completely dominating a match with their favorite tools of destruction. Just an idea I had.
I can see the static defense moving around being a huge issue.
Ya i think that, if this idea were to pass, it would be something to select in a submenu in the lobby. Similar to selecting how many lives a certain team has. It could be turned on or off.
Or maybe (just a shot in the dark idea) a selection of how many security traps there are. < that would be a handicap then.
Quote from: Pusianka on March 29, 2012, 09:52:44 PM
No! No! No! You say sth like:
- Oh yea and I think you re too lame for that mode its just for hardcores, you NOOB!
and keep going like that untill page ten... Or simply:
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-M4kYTdl9IxM%2FTjgpAnQNuoI%2FAAAAAAAADCI%2FiHGMbNOHEis%2Fs1600%2Fbitch-please-cat-cats-kitten-kitty-pic-picture-funny-lolcat-cute-fun-lovely-photo-images.jpg&hash=1a3edf714ddb14fe0c80ee84b90b3372e8c8286e)
Oh boy I used to love me some 10-page debates/empty flaming wars... Gooood times...
Adding an option to alter merc placement time on each map is actually a decent idea. There are some maps that are too easy for spies if they utilize a good initial rush (eg. club house). The only miitogator to this right now are borked game mechanics that overall favor mercs. If you take those away, a delay time might even become necessary.
Only read the first post...
What about pre-set positions for cameras and lasers? Say, have 15 predetermined positions and each merc assigns 5. That way it's faster to set up and can have more combinations based on the teams' strategy to defend the level.
Aside from passive defenses, can't we also give mercs the possibility to place mines, before the spies "arrive"? I mean it's absurd, that mercs are "so nice" to wait with the mine placement until the spies arrive at the scene...
Now tahts more like it! I say 1 minute to set up mines as an option before playing!
Whats to say, for example, preventing the Mercs from settings up Mines at Spy Spawn where they cant be avoided or simply camp the spawn?
I'm not sure I like the extra wait-time, but it could work if Spies could discuss tactics a bit. This is a big deviation from the initial gameplay but it sounds like it has potential.
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on April 21, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Whats to say, for example, preventing the Mercs from settings up Mines at Spy Spawn where they cant be avoided or simply camp the spawn?
When was the last time a legit player mined your spy spawn? Tell me!
Quote from: Pusianka on April 21, 2012, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on April 21, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Whats to say, for example, preventing the Mercs from settings up Mines at Spy Spawn where they cant be avoided or simply camp the spawn?
When was the last time a legit player mined your spy spawn? Tell me!
We should remove anti-cheat too! After all, everyone here is perfectly legit, nobody ever cheats in video games! ;)
In my opinion this wouldn't improve the game. It would only serve to pad out an already complex game with more complexity. The idea of preset security options isn't so bad on paper, but think about it. Who wants to mess around with that at the beginning of every single round, when they could be playing instead?
I think it's better to have just one type of security, that way the map can be optimized and balanced to a high quality. I would rather have that than random frustrating presets I have to change every ten minutes. Adding this just muddies the core gameplay with something that isn't designed to be there.
About anticheat...
...all punkbuster and shit is blocking and banning shit out of people who are cheating with "public trainers " but they are useless aganist people who pay for their illegal weapon on the other hand these little programs are so annoying for fair users so much. Punkbuster can make you lagging, fps drop while scanning ur files, kicking you from game for ep.: "Teamspeak 3".
Good thing to fight against cheaters would be some replay/demo recording ( automatically every round - when demo folder reach XX megabytes then delete it and repeat process ). It don't take any resources at all.
It's cheap way to deal with cheaters - demo recording is included in every Unreal Engine already - if you have any doubts then you upload demo to the forums and let others watch and write their opinion about "unfair" player.
Another plus of demo recording is increased skill ceiling of players. :) People gonna learn tactics and tricks way faster by watching and analyzing their mistakes. ;)
GOD NO do not use PB. VAC if anything.
Quote from: Pusianka on April 21, 2012, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on April 21, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Whats to say, for example, preventing the Mercs from settings up Mines at Spy Spawn where they cant be avoided or simply camp the spawn?
When was the last time a legit player mined your spy spawn? Tell me!
Thankfully it has never happened, but I have horror stories of perfectly timed grenades hitting people in the face just as they leave spawn. The blast radius would be enough to cover any possible exit, but I digress, Im sure theres plenty of ways to prevent that from happening. BTW, I do like the idea, Im just stating possible negative outcomes from allowing Mercs to "set up" first.
Count numbers in your head and there you go with grenades like this (: All you have to do to prevent this is being careful :D
I doubt there will be PB or VAC since no money to add them to the game :)
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on April 21, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
Whats to say, for example, preventing the Mercs from settings up Mines at Spy Spawn where they cant be avoided or simply camp the spawn
Proper map design.
"Infiltration" is a large part of SvM mechanics, and without chokepoints the game just wouldn't be any fun because there would be no interaction forced between the spies and the mercs. The spies would easily be able to move point-to-point uncontested using the HBS to ensure they went where the mercs weren't. But this infiltration should not rely on running to point "X" faster than the mercs can get there and place mines, which results in the game being decided in the first 3 minutes -- either the spies successfully taze/grab and push through and use their speed to run amok, or they get killed and the mercs are able to set up a virtual fortress that is exceptionally difficult to overcome.
As I mentioned previously, the big issue with CT is that the game mechanics and bugs strongly favor the mercs in chokepoint situations. For example, you effectively can't jump on a merc unless you are the spy host (and then it's too generous), a merc can miss a bullcharge into a wall or a berserk and still jump out of it, a merc with high lag will hit you with a bullcharge based on your projected position in the server, not your actual position in space on your screen, and if you try to grab or elbow a merc and he jumps you go into an animation that freezes you in place to get killed. Then there are the design oversights like MT that allows you to also locate stationary spies and EMF that allows you to locate spies not using electronics.
The end result is a game that makes it exceptionally difficult to pass mercs even with a properly executed double team once mines and traps are placed. If you take away all those things that make mercs so impossible to take on, then you can add a grace period to allow them to set up traps to make the game more even. It also will make the game rely more on calculated strategy, coordinated attack, and recon instead of taze and run tactics.
QuoteBTW, I do like the idea, Im just stating possible negative outcomes from allowing Mercs to "set up" first.
You can avoid timed grenades by *gasp* changing up your timing. In CT, this is exceptionally risky because your success hinges so highly on infiltrating prior to mines/traps being set in a lot of maps. But if those mechanics are fixed and you already know mines are set up anyway, then there is very little risk in waiting an extra 3-5 seconds and laughing when grenades start randomly going off. It's a fairly easy cue to tell you to go the other way or let him waste more grenades.
Most of that requires the maps to be tutored in such a way so we can have that ideal environment (which have no confirmation on at all right now).
And the rest is mostly easier said than done, talking about how the gameplay is one thing, but doing it is another. I get the feeling that letting Mercs go first will only provide incentive to rush Spy spawn (if possible) or get as close to possible as the game will allow. Now, if there is something in place to prevent that, my post can be ignored, but we simply dont know if thats hows its going to be until we can actually play on the first few maps.
Not even the best of players can avoid every grenade, thats more of a player skill vs player skill issue (Unless of course theres poor map design/bugs/Double Agent lol). Not everyone who uses grenades will mindlessly spam them or will have perfect timing on the blast delay...not everyone on the receiving end will be able to skillfully dodge all of the blasts or be in a location, at that time, where they can dodge the blasts.
Im just saying. >.>
Quote from: SheikTheGeek on April 24, 2012, 05:35:23 PM
Most of that requires the maps to be tutored in such a way so we can have that ideal environment (which have no confirmation on at all right now).
And the rest is mostly easier said than done, talking about how the gameplay is one thing, but doing it is another. I get the feeling that letting Mercs go first will only provide incentive to rush Spy spawn (if possible) or get as close to possible as the game will allow. Now, if there is something in place to prevent that, my post can be ignored, but we simply dont know if thats hows its going to be until we can actually play on the first few maps.
Not even the best of players can avoid every grenade, thats more of a player skill vs player skill issue (Unless of course theres poor map design/bugs/Double Agent lol). Not everyone who uses grenades will mindlessly spam them or will have perfect timing on the blast delay...not everyone on the receiving end will be able to skillfully dodge all of the blasts or be in a location, at that time, where they can dodge the blasts.
Im just saying. >.>
If the level is made right then it does not matter where the Merc happens to be when the countdown ends as it will have little affect on whether there is a spawn kill within the first few seconds of the game.
Timing, and also knowing how people think, is important though. While spawn killing may be frowned upon, I see it as a two way street. If you know it's possible for someone to spawn kill you and you can avoid it (by going another direction or waiting for the other team's resources to run out) then it's equally your fault for getting killed as it is for the other team to use a cheap tactic.
Again, if the level is designed properly.
Quote from: Meister_Neo on March 29, 2012, 07:53:51 PM
This would certainly make it harder for the spies. But maybe including this into some kind of "pro mode", where mercs can do what you decribed, but spies also have more spawn points they can choose from and additionally some lights are switched off.
The problem i see with this is, if this can be done with UDK tecnically. Well since i am not a dev memeber i cannot say much about it. Also in CT there was a tendency for mercs to win, so the game should not be made too hard for spies. Aside from that this could make spy players angry because they have to wait for the mercs to set up their devices...
what about the little app ubisoft used for planning in maps with icon placement for sound emitters, etc. ATC i think it was called, could all be done pre-game so as not to disrupt the game, all in free time.