Besides gas, they should also be able to release a tiny amount of chaff.
I only just made it up and I think it could be useful to disarm mines that aren't accessable by shooting a chaff (or shooting the chaff makes too much noise or whatever).
If you used gas, you can't chaff anymore and vice versa.
I have no idea what it'll do to gameplay, so I am asking your opinion on the pros/cons.
sounds groovy
Well, I'm sort of reluctant to make cams any better, as they tend to be one of the most essential peices of spy equipment out there. Everyone takes cams, at least all the good players do anyway, so I don't feel as though they need a power boost.
As far as gameplay changes, I'm not really certain it'd be all that useful. Mainly because the best mines are hidden behind walls and the like and require that you bounce a grenade in. A straight trajectory usually isn't sufficient to hit them.
Instead I see them being used as quick chaff replacements. Quickcam a 3 laser door setup instead of chaffing it. I could also see distraction devices as a side effect. Set up a chaff cam by a laser beam or camera and then blow it at a strategic time to initiate a security failure message, if you set it up right, it may draw the mercs off track.
Still, as I said before, stickies are probably the most potent spy gadget out there, so I don't think there's really any need to make them better.
I think that if the 'normal' chaffs make the noise they do now, and the 'sticky cam chaff' makes no noise, it can open up some tactics that you already mentioned. I dont see how it would make cams much stronger, because it's just a silent, remote chaff.
Hmmm, interesting idea. Would the chaff still even make a noise? When you throw a chaff at the ground it makes a little buzzing noise that everyone can hear. This would only be useful if the sticky chaff thing didn't make the buzzing noise, if it did then all it would become is a chaff that takes too long to use.
Hey, I just had an idea. Say you are in sticky cam mode and you have a given amount of gas (or chaff) to use. What if you could hold down a button to use gas and when you let go the gas would stop coming out? Same thing with chaff. Say you had a little bar that shows gas amount and when you release some, that bar goes down, but you still have some left to use later. Of course to do this then it should take more gas to bring down a merc, and more of a direct hit.
Good idea? Bad idea?
this idea is better for escapes and such, for example placing one near some static security like a motion sensor and set off the cam before you need to run and not take the time to shoot it out.
Also loading up some flash action would also be cool for ambushes but could affect balance...
I don't think flash is a good idea, because that's 100% agressive. Unless you only hit it when a merc is sniping at you =/ But I dont think that will happen often.
I dont think the holding-button gas is handy, because it requires too much effort. Cams should be quick and relatively easy to learn (hard to master).
I think it would be harder to master if it were a "hold down a button for it to come out" sticky cam. It would be useful for things such as: Filling up areas with smoke by turning your camera while shooting it. If you miss a merc with the cam you can use the camera to redirect the smoke at him. I think they would be a lot harder to master this way, and it would have some good uses. Maybe if it had a " Deploy all smoke at once" button as well as a button that allows you to shoot the smoke manually in different directions.
A merc only needs 0.5 sec or something to be in the gas to be KOed. I think that it will eventually be the same.
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 12:03:19 AM
I think that if the 'normal' chaffs make the noise they do now, and the 'sticky cam chaff' makes no noise, it can open up some tactics that you already mentioned. I dont see how it would make cams much stronger, because it's just a silent, remote chaff.
as long as it doesn't say security failure...or is that in as well?
sticky cams are already overused, and making one gadget the one for all purposes is just silly.
chaff nades need a rebalancing. i'd say give them a slightely larger radius, but don't make them work through walls.
Quote from: Westfall-US on August 22, 2007, 05:58:56 PM
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 12:03:19 AM
I think that if the 'normal' chaffs make the noise they do now, and the 'sticky cam chaff' makes no noise, it can open up some tactics that you already mentioned. I dont see how it would make cams much stronger, because it's just a silent, remote chaff.
as long as it doesn't say security failure...or is that in as well?
There'll be a security failure, but the chaff itself is silent, so it's harder to pinpoint _what_ has been disabled.
With this option, you can get behaviour like the chaff+snare on alarms.
Only now it'll be: shoot cam, go somewhere else, deploy chaff, merc goes there, you hack objective at other side of the map.
But this might be too powerful.
Quote from: Gawain on August 22, 2007, 06:00:32 PM
sticky cams are already overused, and making one gadget the one for all purposes is just silly.
chaff nades need a rebalancing. i'd say give them a slightely larger radius, but don't make them work through walls.
Yeah I agree about the cams. No need to give more power to the most used gadget in the game.
About chaff, I've always liked the idea of making them produce a flashbang effect on anyone in MT who looks at the chaff blast. I figure all those moving pieces of chaff could overload the motion tracking thing.
I kind of like letting them work through walls as well, because while unrealistic, the whole purpose of chaff is to disarm hard to reach mines and spytraps. Letting them work through walls only helps this goal.
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 07:32:17 PM
the chaff itself is silent
Let's not forget that the gas that comes out of the cam makes noise and so would the chaff coming out of it.
No
In my opinion, the things should be like this.
Pros:
- silent chaff
- fired in a straight line
- possibility to use it later (as a distraction)
Cons
- very small radius
- can't use gas if chaff has been used or vice versa
- doesn't affect mine long (4 seconds instead of the normal 20 or something?)
- no effect on mercs???
You can also make your own pros/cons list. Let's see if there are better combinations.
the idea just sucks, i can see no reason at all to include such a new feature.
Sooooo... because you dont see a reason, it sucks? Ok, you got me there. I thought a duscussion was based on arguments and reasoning. I am apaprently wrong.
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 08:52:18 PM
No
In my opinion, the things should be like this.
Pros:
- silent chaff
- fired in a straight line
- possibility to use it later (as a distraction)
Cons
- very small radius
- can't use gas if chaff has been used or vice versa
- doesn't affect mine long (4 seconds instead of the normal 20 or something?)
- no effect on mercs???
You can also make your own pros/cons list. Let's see if there are better combinations.
Thing is that there are no cons, because it's an added feature to the sticky cam and the sticky cam isn't losing anything it already has, it's just gaining an extra feature.
Basically it's "the item you're going to take anyway is going to be able to do extra stuff", there's no downside to that, at all.
The sticky cam doesn't need any new abilities. Now if you're talking about creating some new device, like the chaff cam, then we have something to talk about. But the sticky is already the most powerful (if not overpowered) gadget in the game. There is no good reason I can think of why we should make it even better.
Well, in the current idea, it is either a chaff-cam or a gas-cam. (per cam fired, viewing is always an option).
Just like a "Spy Trap" can also be a Proximity Detector. The PD also has different pros/cons than the original Spy Trap.
The same goes for the Mine-family.
Instead of expanding the possibilities of a Merc gadget, I am extending that of a Spy gadget.
I am still not sure if it's a good idea, but for the sake of argument (and my actual current PoV), I'll play Devil's Advocate.
So far a good discussion (ignoring Gawains post)
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 10:22:40 PM
Sooooo... because you dont see a reason, it sucks? Ok, you got me there. I thought a duscussion was based on arguments and reasoning. I am apaprently wrong.
dude i don't want to offend you, but sometimes you act like an ubi mod (except not banning me).
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
you didn't tell any reason why you think this feature would improve the gameplay.
now u get the point??
don't be an idiot.
Quote from: frvge on August 21, 2007, 11:13:42 PM
I only just made it up and I think it could be useful to disarm mines that aren't accessable by shooting a chaff (or shooting the chaff makes too much noise or whatever).
If you used gas, you can't chaff anymore and vice versa.
I have no idea what it'll do to gameplay, so I am asking your opinion on the pros/cons.
Taken from the first post ::)
edit: a ubi mod cant take criticism, I can. As long as you provide reasons. Just saying "it sucks" without any backup to that is annoying.
I personally think that the idea of having a chaff cam is totally useless. There are usually never any mines that aren't accessible by a chaff. If it only worked for four seconds and it was unaccessible by a chaff, then it will wear off before you even get to a mine most likely. If it said "security failure" then it really isn't a silent chaff is it? And if you add the feature of holding down a button to make the smoke come out, it isn't really negative is it. It would have a button to deploy all gas at once, and another button to hold down so you can spray the gas at all directions. Someone said something about having a flash cam, now that would be cool... Imagine having a flash grenade set up in a corner, and while you are hacking you see that a merc is coming towards that corner. You would use that flash grenade and totally blind him for a few seconds. It would effect gameplay, but just a little bit.
i can't imagine any good use of it; knocking out the merc is the most powerful thing you can do anyway.
chaff nades have their use, but it's really no problem to play without them on most maps. in fact, i can't imagine using your feature in any other way than to save chaffs, but because cams are stronger anyway, there is really no need. why do you want to boost a totally overused gadget by giving it the functionality of another already existing one??
just some examples of probably reasonable gadget changes:
-better snares. add the camosuit activation noise, let them do noises more sparely, add a timer or remote control, etc.
-better hbs: make detected enemies appear on your mate's radar.
-...
what this game needs are not new fancy gadgets, but better balancing of the existing ones.
ok. good points.
Thusfar, I think the pros I mentioned can be countered with:
- just use an enhanced snare + remote hack
- it's got no point to make the cams more powerful/diversive than they already are.
Yea, cuz we need to combine two of the arguably most useful gadgets into 1. They weren't good enough taking up two separate slots [/sarcasm]
Furthermore, yes, Gawain, neither Chaff nor Smoke should work through walls/floors/ceilings. The latter is supposedly an engine limitation, but cams don't work through walls so I don't know how legitimate that claim is. I'm not so sure about a radius increase though -- the radius in PT was way too big, and I'm not sure what the difference between the two are. If you fixed the bent laser mines/spy traps, then there would only be a select few mines that would be un-chaffable.
I think that snares, heartbeat, maybe spy bullets should be given a little boost. Snares should make noises when the player tells it to, I think Gawain said that, like remote contol.
smoke and chaff sprites won't go through walls in UE3.
Gawain, one does not need to call the OP "stupid" or the poster an idiot to disagree with an idea. Simply disagree and move on. Don't provoke flaming it's not constructive in any way.
But on the actual subject; expanding the spy's gadget functionality could be a good thing, however I'm not sure that a chaff cam would prove all that useful. Being able to cause a security failure on the other side of the map could cause balance issues, perhaps not in all maps, but in some. It would make larger maps off balance as the merc would have to wait for an actual hack before leaving his "post". Most maps provide enough alternative routes that a chaff grenade can be used to cause a failure and then the spy can circle around behind the merc for a hack.
only bad players get distracted by fake security alerts. good mercs stay close to bottle necks or central points, and rather count on camnet and 120dB+eax *sarcasm*
but there are some rare spots the remote chaff feature could cause some good distraction, club 2nd floor window spytrap/mine for example.
what most people don't get is: 1000 multipurpose gadgets won't make a good game; it's the fine balancing so that games on competitive level don't get repetative. what makes a good game interesting is not rock paper scissors counter system, but giving every counter different skill requirements, success chances and risks.
in my experience, mercs win 70-80% of the time with equally skilled players (except maps like hospital and maybe steel, where run and hit tactics are overpowered). the optimum should be around 50-60% win for the mercs (against a skilled team).
what we should do to really enhance the gadgets is to question what gadgets are underused and why.
i'll begin with
-camo: way too loud activation noise (eax), too easy visible with high resolutions, motion and emf whoring, maps with short-medium lines of view.
this is a really good example that if you change one little thing, you may have to change lots of other stuff. with the fixed sound and forced normal post render mt, camo will get a viable gadget if the normal vision part is done correct. (i'm aware that some good stealth players use camo on some maps, but in most situations it wouldn't make much difference if they didn't use it at all.) with more people using camo, the mercs had to use their laser and emf more, which would result in less sound awareness, etc etc
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on August 23, 2007, 04:05:21 AM
Gawain, one does not need to call the OP "stupid" or the poster an idiot to disagree with an idea. Simply disagree and move on. Don't provoke flaming it's not constructive in any way.
i got angry because whenever i say something sucks i get flamed. i know that reasoning why something sucks is better for the understanding, but some things are just bluntly obvious, some things can only be understood with more ingame experience, and sometimes i'm just too lazy to waste more time on stupid arguments.
I think balance is mostly a function of the map. On maps like Orphanage, Squat, or Hospital, I wouldn't be surprised if the win ratio for good teams was at or near 60/40 (in favor of the merc) that you ask for.
Having said that, changing some basic things could very well give the spies that extra push they need to balance the game. I mean, taking things from my proposed changelog:
-Forcing normal-post render on MT so that the screen is blurry (merc nerf)
-Give MT a max range and, if possible, a greater gray box delay from behind than in front (merc nerf)
-Make jumping on a merc more client-side friendly (spy buff)
-Make jumping on a merc less host-side friendly (spy nerf, but really, it's ridiculously stupid how easy it is to host jump someone)
-Remove insta-frags (merc nerf)
-Lower camo activation noise so a merc can't hear it unless he's very near a spy (spy buff)
-Chaff and smoke doesn't work through walls (spy nerf)
-Snares make a softer shooting noise like in pt (spy buff)
-Adjust grab "hitbox" to be more directly behind the merc's FOV instead of offset to his left (merc nerf)
-Remove funny punches (huge spy buff)
Really, the main 4 ways I get killed that piss me off are: insta-frags, funny punches, lag charges, and landing 2 inches next to a merc when trying to jump him, but since you're a client you don't get the axe-handle smash move. You probably can't do a thing about funny punches, but removing insta-frags and funny punches will buff spies a ton on their own. I've seriously lost games due to just one insta-frag. Now take into account that grabbing will be easier/make more sense,, as will jumping on a merc. Then take into account that MT won't be uber, and you have quite a bit of spy buffs/merc nerfs in there. The only way that spies are nerfed is when grenades don't work through walls, but that's just an idiotic mechanic in itself.
my opinion about the perfect changes to mt:
-normal post render
-static noise (like in emf)
-no detection delay in front
it should be harder to discover spies in slow or no motion and better in detecting quick motion.
I don't like it when gadgets overlap in function.
Quote from: Overstatement on August 23, 2007, 07:41:32 PM
I don't like it when gadgets overlap in function.
short and concise ;D
Quote from: frvge on August 22, 2007, 11:49:30 PM
Well, in the current idea, it is either a chaff-cam or a gas-cam. (per cam fired, viewing is always an option).
No. It's both a chaff cam and a gas cam until you choose which one to fire, and that's a difference, because you have to choose only one gadget to get that, not two gadgets.
Imagine if you could just take a general category "grenades", and it could be a flash, a chaff or a smoke, depending on what button you pressed. That's much more powerful than having individually selectable chaff, smoke and flash that you have to take at the equipment section, because you have more dynamic options.
Basically everyone takes cams anyway, so with this change, you're getting chaff ability for free.
I honestly don't think that this is a bad idea. People are bashing this idea because they say that there are hardly any mines that are not already chaffable. However, I think people are forgetting that in PS chaff grenades will NOT go through walls, meaning you will have to make sure that the chaff is dropped in the LOS of the mine/trap. I can definitely see usefulness in this with setting off security failures from across the map, or for placing it down to use it later to take out a camera or motion sensor.
People who say it would make cams even more overpowered should look at this: you can only use the cam for smoke or chaff. You would (I'm assuming) still get the same amount of cams, so if you use one to chaff you would have one less to smoke. This would add a new function, but it would not necessarily make it too overpowered (yes, I can see the possiblity of setting off security failure across the map being overpowered on some maps, but that is purely a map balance issue). You still have to deal with the same number of cams, so you have to pick and choose what you want to use them for.
I think this is something that is at least looking into. Maybe playtest with it a bit and see how it works. If it isn't useful enough while playing, then take it out. If it does prove to be too overpowered (which, mind you, people would have to adjust to the fact that you could use these to create security failures from across the map, so it could seem very overpowered at first). I don't know, I think this idea could be fun and interesting.
Umm...when did we agree that chaff didn't go through walls? When did we suddenly abandon the goal of replicating CT gameplay?
That's still up for debate indeed. Will probably be decided later in the Production-stage.
making chaff work through walls is completely bullshit. mines should slow down spies and especially prohibit mindless aggro.
i'd really suggest that we follow spekkio's fix list generally. i don't hink a voting will help find the best fixes, because most of the people here have way too less ingame experience. we have to make someone responsible for the changes, otherwise it will end in chaos. i think if someone has good arguments against/for a change, spekkio is reasonable enough to change his list.
cloning ct gameplay 100% with all the bs in it is mindless as we already have this game.
edit: imo there are two changes that need further discussion:
-mt
-uzi/weapons in general
Everyone has lots of ideas of how to change CT gameplay so I've always thought we should have two development threads that have different goals.
First, we have to finish a complete clone of CT and then we can start working on a "different" mod(s) that tweaks the gameplay and reuse all the art and code. It doesn't even have to be a seperate download.
And we'll also keep supporting and updating the CT clone because fixing bugs here would automatically fix bugs in the later mods. Changing values and adding minor things relatively easy to code but make a big difference because CT is one of those games where little changes have big effects.
Of course the downside is that this may split the community and probably lead to greater lobby waiting time among other things.
the gameplay is strongly influenced by the many bugs, lagg and many other bad stuff in ct. i don't think it's a good idea to clone everything if we have some points that make total sense to change; especially if we had them in pt.
Quote from: Spekkio on August 23, 2007, 04:57:21 PM
I think balance is mostly a function of the map. On maps like Orphanage, Squat, or Hospital, I wouldn't be surprised if the win ratio for good teams was at or near 60/40 (in favor of the merc) that you ask for.
Having said that, changing some basic things could very well give the spies that extra push they need to balance the game. I mean, taking things from my proposed changelog:
-Forcing normal-post render on MT so that the screen is blurry (merc nerf)
-Give MT a max range and, if possible, a greater gray box delay from behind than in front (merc nerf)
-Make jumping on a merc more client-side friendly (spy buff)
-Make jumping on a merc less host-side friendly (spy nerf, but really, it's ridiculously stupid how easy it is to host jump someone)
-Remove insta-frags (merc nerf)
-Lower camo activation noise so a merc can't hear it unless he's very near a spy (spy buff)
-Chaff and smoke doesn't work through walls (spy nerf)
-Snares make a softer shooting noise like in pt (spy buff)
-Adjust grab "hitbox" to be more directly behind the merc's FOV instead of offset to his left (merc nerf)
-Remove funny punches (huge spy buff)
Really, the main 4 ways I get killed that piss me off are: insta-frags, funny punches, lag charges, and landing 2 inches next to a merc when trying to jump him, but since you're a client you don't get the axe-handle smash move. You probably can't do a thing about funny punches, but removing insta-frags and funny punches will buff spies a ton on their own. I've seriously lost games due to just one insta-frag. Now take into account that grabbing will be easier/make more sense,, as will jumping on a merc. Then take into account that MT won't be uber, and you have quite a bit of spy buffs/merc nerfs in there. The only way that spies are nerfed is when grenades don't work through walls, but that's just an idiotic mechanic in itself.
I totally agree on Spekkio's point but for god sake people read the manual. Its stated in there as an elbow not a " funny punch"
It's a bug. (told him the exact definition over Xfire)
can you explain it to me, too? ^^
Quote from: Gawain on August 26, 2007, 12:26:46 PM
edit: imo there are two changes that need further discussion:
-mt
-uzi/weapons in general
It's probably best not to do much with weapons until we see how the netcode is going to work in PS. Lag will have such a heavy balance influence that we can't say for sure what a good change for weapons would entail yet.
MT is really the only big issue in my opinion that needs to be addressed. Really, some of the annoying bugs (instanade, funny punches, etc) could get fixed along with MT and that would make a good game. The rest of the stuff is just extra.
Aggro isn't a super big problem, not nearly as much as letting stealth be a viable style against good players.
stealth is already a viable option. the biggest stealth killer atm is eax superhearing, but snares do help a lot.
Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 02:22:01 AM
stealth is already a viable option. the biggest stealth killer atm is eax superhearing, but snares do help a lot.
Yeah I forgot about EAX. EAX needs to die a horrible screaming death. You can add that right up there with MT as far as essential things that need to be fixed.
As for stealth, it could be a better option. I was rather alarmed when I heard that the supposed "counter" for MT was to shock the merc and then run. MT shouldn't be so good that you can't sneak past it.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on August 26, 2007, 03:03:44 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on August 23, 2007, 04:57:21 PM
I think balance is mostly a function of the map. On maps like Orphanage, Squat, or Hospital, I wouldn't be surprised if the win ratio for good teams was at or near 60/40 (in favor of the merc) that you ask for.
Having said that, changing some basic things could very well give the spies that extra push they need to balance the game. I mean, taking things from my proposed changelog:
-Forcing normal-post render on MT so that the screen is blurry (merc nerf)
-Give MT a max range and, if possible, a greater gray box delay from behind than in front (merc nerf)
-Make jumping on a merc more client-side friendly (spy buff)
-Make jumping on a merc less host-side friendly (spy nerf, but really, it's ridiculously stupid how easy it is to host jump someone)
-Remove insta-frags (merc nerf)
-Lower camo activation noise so a merc can't hear it unless he's very near a spy (spy buff)
-Chaff and smoke doesn't work through walls (spy nerf)
-Snares make a softer shooting noise like in pt (spy buff)
-Adjust grab "hitbox" to be more directly behind the merc's FOV instead of offset to his left (merc nerf)
-Remove funny punches (huge spy buff)
Really, the main 4 ways I get killed that piss me off are: insta-frags, funny punches, lag charges, and landing 2 inches next to a merc when trying to jump him, but since you're a client you don't get the axe-handle smash move. You probably can't do a thing about funny punches, but removing insta-frags and funny punches will buff spies a ton on their own. I've seriously lost games due to just one insta-frag. Now take into account that grabbing will be easier/make more sense,, as will jumping on a merc. Then take into account that MT won't be uber, and you have quite a bit of spy buffs/merc nerfs in there. The only way that spies are nerfed is when grenades don't work through walls, but that's just an idiotic mechanic in itself.
I totally agree on Spekkio's point but for god sake people read the manual. Its stated in there as an elbow not a " funny punch"
I think the biggest issue with the elbow is when you sneak up behind somebody and instead of necking them you end up slapping them from behind, which makes them spin around to face you just before pushing them backward. I _think_ that is what Spekkio means by "funny punches."
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 27, 2007, 02:26:54 AM
As for stealth, it could be a better option. I was rather alarmed when I heard that the supposed "counter" for MT was to shock the merc and then run. MT shouldn't be so good that you can't sneak past it.
you got that totally wrong. stealth is far superior to aggro on most maps, you just have no idea how to pull it off. distraction is a quite important factor, and so is time. if you can a) sneak past a mt whore in 2 minutes or b) sneak past a mt whore in 20 seconds, b) should be the preferred option. shocking and nading the merc =/= giving away your, and especially not your partner's position. there are plenty ways you can leave unnoticed after flashing a merc, and your teammate can get a large distance while the merc is shocked. it is sometimes the only good solution for bottlenecks or big open rooms. a game where you can avoid your opponent 99% of the time would be quite boring for the merc (compare scct <=> scda). stealth = mercs wondering what the heck the spies are going to do in the next moment. i think you hate the stuff you heard about aggro on pc, but i bet it's far weaker on pc than on xbox because the mercs have way better aiming, can turn better etc.
stealth doesn't have to be slow!!
lol @ agentx's comment. AgentX wins the thread for dumbest comment ever. A "funny punch" is when you go to elbow a merc, but he jumps. The spy does the elbow animation, but the merc is unaffected by it because he's in the air. Then he lands and charges you because you're still in the middle of the animation. The best fix is to make the game "smarter" ie the spy won't elbow while a merc is mid-air.
Chaff and smoke going through walls is stupid. I was under the impression that PS is supposed to clone SvM gameplay, not just CT. That means taking the best of PT and CT, and changing the worst of it.
In PT, chaff didn't go through walls and spies got along just fine. Also keep in mind that in PT the lasers for traps was significantly shorter, and they didn't "bend" if you were the client. You could also place them vertically (which I asked for again on spy traps). In other words, you wouldn't be able to place the poison/spy trap in club house that goes from the light through the garden door; rather, you'd have to place it on the 2x4 next to the healthpack, and this is easily bypassable by shooting a chaff over there.
What will this fix? Well, I'm sure everyone has been annoyed by a host who jumps up and down between the two garden objectives without penalty. If you couldn't insta-chaff any traps or mines there from the outside, this would slow him down a bit. He would actually have to *gasp* think about when he wanted to blow the trap out.
Now, obviously PS is going to use new maps and the like, but the concept still remains. Chaff going through walls gives spies way too much quick and easy access to the map.
Likewise, smoke going through walls, floors, and ceilings is just a dumb mechanic. Smoke gas cannot magically penetrate these objects, yet you can do this and either slow the merc down or force him to waste more mask. People have said it's an engine limitation, but camgas doesn't work through walls even though the smoke does.
As far as stealth, Gawain hit the nail on the head. You usually need one person to provide a distraction (or both people take turns providing distractions). Smart/good mercs aren't going to just sit there. They will anticipate where you are going based upon how long you take. They also have a slew of tools to be able to detect you. If you can get them fixated on one person, then the other guy can have free reign of the map.
EAX can be bad depending on the player, but most of the time it isn't too bad. The worst thing with EAX is camo. Most of the other sounds can only be heard within close proximity except by a select few people.
Quote from: Spekkio on August 27, 2007, 06:20:22 PM
As far as stealth, Gawain hit the nail on the head. You usually need one person to provide a distraction (or both people take turns providing distractions). Smart/good mercs aren't going to just sit there. They will anticipate where you are going based upon how long you take. They also have a slew of tools to be able to detect you. If you can get them fixated on one person, then the other guy can have free reign of the map.
Of course, smart mercs will anticipate where you'll be coming, but you can use that against them too, by delaying in rushing a normally close objective. Obviously if the merc knows where you are and what vent or what not that you're coming out of, you're going to be in trouble, but the mind game aspect is fine.
I'm more worried about the fact that you can't cross a big room without getting detected by MT. Your only option shouldn't be shocking the merc and running like hell. The worst part too is that you don't even know you've been detected, because of the 360 degree detection radius. I'd just like there to be a stealthy solution to MT that doesn't involve either a partner or shocking the merc. Slow crouching right now doesn't really work because you'll get spotted by MT night vision long before you get anywhere important. Using camo runs into the EAX problem.
if you don't know when you're detected by mt and when not, you are a poor player. maybe a vision indicator on the back of the helmet would be a good idea though.
the mercs don't have to leave their position to check if you're there. there are tools like camnet, teammate, experience, etc.
in addition, on some occasoins it is a good strategy to let the spies waste time. just wait in the front area the time they need to sneak in the back, then go to the back and give up that objective.
First of all, wide open, large rooms shouldn't exist. They are poor for gameplay. Secondly, in those types of rooms the mercs will not need MT to detect you. Sure, it could make things easier, but it's not that hard to wave the laser all over the place.
Quote from: Gawain on August 27, 2007, 11:14:49 PM
if you don't know when you're detected by mt and when not, you are a poor player. maybe a vision indicator on the back of the helmet would be a good idea though.
I disagree. While there are some obvious times you know you've been detected, there are many times when you're honestly not sure. First, you don't know if the merc is even in MT if he's not facing you. Second, you're not quite sure if you had enough cover to block MT from detecting you or not. Sometimes you may just be barely visible to the merc and still get MT pinged. I mean, do you know if the merc walking around on the catwalk really saw you in the machine room on factory? How about the merc you just briefly passed on deftech outside?
There are a lot of edge case situations where it may not be immediately obvious if you were detected or not, especially when the merc is on a different elevation than you are and you have some limited cover. There are times when I've picked up a spy that had almost 90% cover on MT, and other times where I didn't seem to pick up a spy who I felt I should have for whatever reason. Lag can be a factor sometimes. Other times MT just acts a bit weird for whatever reason.
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the mercs don't have to leave their position to check if you're there. there are tools like camnet, teammate, experience, etc.
True, but evading this stuff is what stealth play is all about. You want to try to get your opponent to guess wrong as to where you're going.
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in addition, on some occasoins it is a good strategy to let the spies waste time. just wait in the front area the time they need to sneak in the back, then go to the back and give up that objective.
The drawback of a traditional stealth approach is that it is slower than an aggro or distraction based strategy, but the style should still be a viable one.
QuoteThere are a lot of edge case situations where it may not be immediately obvious if you were detected or not,
This isn't exclusive to MT. Sometimes you might cross the merc's FOV but for whatever reason, he doesn't look exactly where you are. Other times he might catch a glance of you and you have no idea that he did.
Quote from: Spekkio on August 27, 2007, 11:33:30 PM
This isn't exclusive to MT. Sometimes you might cross the merc's FOV but for whatever reason, he doesn't look exactly where you are. Other times he might catch a glance of you and you have no idea that he did.
Well that's perfectly fine. That's a player who actually has to notice you. And you should be guessing if he saw you or not.
MT is the computer noticing the other player for you. You don't have to be actually seen, the game just puts a box around you and says, "here he is.". I don't think it'd be too unfair to give the spy the same kind of advance warning letting him know that his position has been compromised, it's really similar to how when you walk in front of a camera or other static defense and you get the "you've been detected" message.
I always felt like if the game itself was detecting you and not the other player, you should get a warning.
if you are unsure if he did detect you, and hes a good actor, just have to decide between getting in a safe zone or taking the risk. it adds to the gameplay if you ask me. and those situasions happen kinda rarely. just stay in slow mode against mt...
changing mt the way i suggested would annihilate the problem anyways, because every quick motion gets detected instantly.
regarding big rooms: mt is better on deftech, because its dark out there. in factory main hall for example, normal vision is at least equally strong.
QuoteMT is the computer noticing the other player for you. You don't have to be actually seen, the game just puts a box around you and says, "here he is.".
Only if you're in the merc's FOV, in which case you can see the red visor. If you're behind him, he has to turn around and hope the box is still there. Therein lies the tell: if a merc suddenly snaps around and has a red visor, you probably set off the box.
That's what I was going to say. How can you not turn around if MT is activated? I guess I'm not brave enough to risk a grab.
Now that the subject is hitting on ideas about MT. I would like to see a power bar incorporated with the use of MT and EMF that will run down to prevent whoring. Whether or not the power can be restored by turning it off and letting it recharge, backpack or stationary power box (ie. health/power box) is another idea.
when i first read your post i liked the idea of a self recharging power bar for visions etc.
but this would result in huge gameplay changes. for example, flash bangs would get way stronger. if we do this, mt and emf must even get a boost to keep the balance, because now you have to time even better when to use which vision.
Quote from: Horny_Hamster on August 28, 2007, 06:28:40 AM
Now that the subject is hitting on ideas about MT. I would like to see a power bar incorporated with the use of MT and EMF that will run down to prevent whoring. Whether or not the power can be restored by turning it off and letting it recharge, backpack or stationary power box (ie. health/power box) is another idea.
Well you honestly don't need to nerf EMF at all. If people want to whore EMF that's not even a big deal, because a spy can evade EMF. You can very well get through levels without changing visions or pulling out your gun. What you can't do is get through the level without moving. I could see putting MT on a timer, but definitely not EMF. Let people use EMF as much as they want.
It would be interesting doing that with MT, it'd force people to just use when they're getting aggroed, which may actually be a good idea for a fix.
I think you want to "force" as little as possible. In any places you can replace a programmed limit with a gameplay limit, you should do it. So you shouldn't use visions all the time not because "your battery will run out" but because "using multiple visions/flashlight will give you the most complete picture".
Quote from: Overstatement on August 28, 2007, 08:53:03 PM
I think you want to "force" as little as possible. In any places you can replace a programmed limit with a gameplay limit, you should do it. So you shouldn't use visions all the time not because "your battery will run out" but because "using multiple visions/flashlight will give you the most complete picture".
affirmative.
Quote from: Overstatement on August 28, 2007, 08:53:03 PM
I think you want to "force" as little as possible. In any places you can replace a programmed limit with a gameplay limit, you should do it. So you shouldn't use visions all the time not because "your battery will run out" but because "using multiple visions/flashlight will give you the most complete picture".
Well, currently against an MT whore, you're basically "forced" to shock the merc if you want to get by him.
While I don't 100% like the idea of a timer (as it can get frustrating running out at a crucial moment), it may be an easily codable fix to MT, and it would prevent MT whoring, though through a somewhat iron fisted approach.
Then MT would basically be accepted as the "best" vision, you just couldn't use it all the time.
you folks don't get it, there are other solutions than shocking the merc. it's equally hard to bypass a merc in normal vision. why do you think that most good players use all three visions??
normal post render would be a sufficient fix alone...
Quote from: Gawain on August 28, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
you folks don't get it, there are other solutions than shocking the merc. it's equally hard to bypass a merc in normal vision.
No, it's really not. You can wait for a merc to turn his back in normal vision and just fast crouch by. You can also use shadows against normal vision.
Against MT, you're flat out just screwed. The moment you start moving, even if it's a good ways away, you get hit with the grey box of doom.
I'm not just complaining because people detect me with MT, I'm a motion whore of the worst kind, and that's even on xbox (where there is no high quality post render). MT is incredible. It basically means you don't even have to look for the spy, the game just tells you where the spy is. Unless he wants to try to move really slow and then just prays you don't see him on night vision. And even on the low resolution xbox with normal post render, you can still see spies fairly easy at medium to close range with MT night vision. You can't snipe across the level in MT like you can on the PC, but it's really not that big a difference once you get used to spotting out of place red outlines.
A lot of times I'll deliberately have my back to where I think the spies are, so they can't see I'm in MT. Then just wait for the MT sound before quick turning.
Lets continue this conversation after PS comes out.
with good movement and camo skills, mt whoring is quite beatable. the funny thing is that most mt whores can't imagine how one can bypass them undetected and play way too arrogantly.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on August 28, 2007, 11:50:25 PM
And even on the low resolution xbox with normal post render, you can still see spies fairly easy at medium to close range with MT night vision. You can't snipe across the level in MT like you can on the PC, but it's really not that big a difference once you get used to spotting out of place red outlines.
according to most complaints, mt is mainly a problem in big open areas. just try playing some games on steel squat with mt whoring (normal post render!) and with normal vision whoring (opponents not allowed to use flash). if you play against a team with good movement, you will notice that normal(/emf) vision is superior in more than 50% of the situations.
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.
Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 05:07:16 AM
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.
You are totally feeding the fire.
Spekkio, didn't you just say that in another thread?
Quote from: Overstatement on August 29, 2007, 06:03:30 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 05:07:16 AM
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.
You are totally feeding the fire.
i also have to hold back myself from getting sarcastic. we have an independet thread on mt, and everything on it has already been said 999999 times ::)
Quote from: Papa Skull on August 29, 2007, 06:27:20 AM
Spekkio, didn't you just say that in another thread?
it makes no difference, the discussions aren't on the thread's topic anyway.
Quote from: Overstatement on August 29, 2007, 06:03:30 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on August 29, 2007, 05:07:16 AM
I love this forum. Threads devolve into either flamewars between PC and console, or how MT is this magic ability that nukes spies as soon as they set foot in the map.
You are totally feeding the fire.
I know.
Smokey the Bear says " Help prevent forest fires by not feeding them ;D "
I believe that smokey the bear is only from Oregon, not sure though, so you guys might not know what the hell I just said.