After thinking about this for some time, I think I've come to the conclusion that MT needs a reinvent.
The problem is more of a conceptual one. It's both a spy detector and an anti-aggro vision. And there's no real way to beat it. MT just doesn't have any weaknesses.
So what about if instead of trying to fix MT, we just replace it with something else. I'm thinking we don't need anymore spy detecting visions. The flashlight, the laser and EMF already do that well enough. What we do need is anti-aggro. So how about a vision solely designed to beat aggro.
This vision I call CombatVision, because it's designed only to help a merc fight against an aggro spy. It's not useful at all in detection of spies. In fact, the best way to beat CV is to sneak past the merc, because you're highly vulnerable to stealth.
Here are the features:
The Display: CombatVision appears similar to normal vision, except that it's darker and has a maximum range. Yes, that's right darker. CV actually increases shadows somewhat, like wearing sunglasses.
Detection Capabilities: CV also has a detection box feature, similar to MT, that works in a 360 radius. The following things set it off. The box can detect beyond the maximum visual range of CV, though it wont' detect a spy behind total cover.
- Any action that makes sound on the Sound Detector, such as running, drawing a gun, etc.
- Shooting the sticky shocker or firing one of its gadgets.
- Rolling spies
Additional Features:
- A merc in CV is immune to flashbangs
- A merc already in CV does not come out of CV when chaffed or shocked, though these prevent him from entering CV as normal
Nice idea... Mercs need more defense against those nasty spies... IMHO ::)
In my opinion the mercs are a bit out-balanced when looking at the spies.
Though, I don't like the idea Flashbangs can't affect, neather do I like it that spies can't force him out of the vision... This will make it like unneeded to ever go out of the vision, which would mean it will become standard vision of a merc, which is not really the meaning of a vision utility...
Not again with these mt threads ::).
Your idea is MT, but changed radically. Nevertheless, it's still MT at its core.
What I'm about to say is kind of offtopic, but it's somehow related to it.
Here's a curiosity: not only pirates used eye-patches because they were blind in one eye. they also used eye-patches so they could almost instantaneously see in both bright areas (during day) and dark areas (during night).
I learned that from Mythbusters. Check it out.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=aosRNh5hXNM
Liked it? Ok, now let's stay ontopic ;D.
I like it. Its basically sound detector but you get a visual pointer to where they are plus you still get to see slightly. I want a few changes like this. Ones that make it ever-so-different from Splinter Cell yet not driving away from it core gameplay like the pd
I think it's overpowered. Aggro is part of story mode (don't like it? play disk hunt!) and this view suggests certain death for anyone trying to attack a merc. I would rather have something that's more defense (prevents you from getting necked) than offensive (quickly eliminates the spy) because I think aggro is a valid delaying tactic.
How about we just take away MT ability to detect crouching or maybe just slowly moving spies? This would alter gameplay a lot.
This thread is retarded, autistic, and down syndromesque all-in-one.
Agreed ^ and man that would suck to have all of those defects and diseases. :-X
Quote from: LennardF1989 on September 05, 2007, 10:44:29 PM
Though, I don't like the idea Flashbangs can't affect, neather do I like it that spies can't force him out of the vision... This will make it like unneeded to ever go out of the vision, which would mean it will become standard vision of a merc, which is not really the meaning of a vision utility...
Well the idea is that it has a capped range and it's darker, meaning that it doesn't see as well as normal vision. So sure, a merc is generally going to want to go into combat vision if he knows where a spy is, but the idea is that it's inferior to normal vision for actually finding a spy, so unlike MT, it isn't something you can stay in all the time... well not unless you're playing a team of pure aggro. Imagine that it's like wearing sunglasses and having a max vision range of the length of the sea tunnel on Aqua. That's certainly not something you want on all the time.
The idea is actually to make people choose which vision to use as opposed to just having one universal vision that does everything like the current MT does. This CombatVision is great against aggro, but it's inferior to normal vision if you're trying to locate stealthy spies. So while you can keep it on constantly, it's probably not a great idea, because if the spies see that you're using CombatVision, they'll know to just sneak around you.
Nevertheless, I agree with Overstatement that it is too overpowered (according to the description you gave).
Dude, your idea is fucking MT vision with a different color scheme that you can't circumvent except by shocking the merc. For the love of god, give this obsession with MT a rest.
I think you guys over analyze way too much.
MT has a couple of main problems.
360 degree detection
distance of detection
Sensitivity
NightVision.
All in that order. I for one, suffer from the MT freeze. Where if a merc has MT on and I don't have camo, I don't know what to do. So most of time, I'll end up sitting there. While nerfing all of those points would make the vision useless, we have to find a better balance.
360 degree detection sucks balls because of MT sensitivity. I can be way down the hall the merc not looking at me and i move diagonally and bam! I'm found on MT. Nerf the distance detection and, 360 degree isn't that much of a problem. Nerf the sensitivity and then distance detection isn't a problem. It's all linked. The only way to better solve this problem of the "ultimate" vision is to play test it with different strengths. Untill then, we can only come up with suggestions and speculation.
I would say the sensitivity is more of an issue than the 360 detection. You have to keep the 360 detection because of aggro. Just make it so that going slow on a slant doesn't set off the detector, force a blurry vision quality similar to normal post render 800x600 resolution graphics, and we'd be straight. At one point a long while ago I took screenshots of a particular area in Warehouse to show how 800x600 normal post-render actually fixes most of the NV/max distance problems all in one (it's generally way too blurry to see a spy across the map unless he sets off the box). Considering the PC version is an Xbox port, I think that the devs intended to design MT such that your vision is blurry except for the object in motion, which appears clearly via the grey box. With Ubi's laziness, the PC version can be scaled up in graphics so that you don't have to sacrifice much visual clarity at all to use MT.
ADDED: Here are two links showing the difference between HQ and LQ MT. The first image is 1280x1024 w/ everything on high/very high. The second image is 640x480 with everything on normal. I want you to pay attention to the two lines at the top and bottom on the file cabinet. In the HQ image they are completely clear; in the LQ image you can only see half of them before they fade into a shadow, demonstrating how normal post-render actually extends shadows through its blurriness. Furthermore, pay attention to the gun. In the HQ image, the gun is clearly detailed. In the LQ image, it is a blob of blurriness, much like the spy would appear when you don't set off the grey box. I don't have another person at hand to show spots where this would make a spy able to hide in the dark, but they certainly do.
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l179/reynoldo_2006/HQMT.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l179/reynoldo_2006/LQMT.jpg
Adding a max distance to the grey box similar in range to EMF and removing its NV capability might also help. However, those might not be necessary once the major bugs are fixed and the above changes are implemented. I mean, the point is that in order to get to an objective, you're going to have to move. Ultimately that will make any motion-detecting device paired with a diligent patrol route a generally superior means of detection. Regardless, whenever you nerf or buff anything it has to be done in small increments. The walking-on-a-slant problem is more of a failure of QA, since Ubi intended for you to be able to creep past a merc. But forcing the above quality of vision for MT might just be enough of a nerf to set the game straight. If it's not, then you go from there in small steps. None of this totally redisigning crap. MT is a little overpowered, but it's not omgwtfgodvision the way that people are crying about.
As for what to do if you absolutely MUST go through an area where you'd be exposed to a merc in MT, ask your partner to distract or harass the merc. When he does so, the best thing to do is move quickly rather than slowly because the longer the distraction lasts, the more likely the spy will die.
Why not have DA motion tracking but its a toggle between torch and MT
DA MT is stupid for a few reasons:
1. You don't sacrifice anything for the ability to detect motion since it's in the normal vision
2. It's only in the FOV, rendering the vision pointless to begin with. I can see spies moving in front of my face just fine, thankyouverymuch.
3. You need to have special visions as a safeguard to flashbangs.
Anyway, I updated my post on the last page to include images of how forcing normal post render could fix the problem without any of these radical ideas being thrown around.
I also want to stick with the traditional MT in low Res without inverting lightmaps (giving nightvision)
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 03:11:17 PM
Dude, your idea is fucking MT vision with a different color scheme that you can't circumvent except by shocking the merc. For the love of god, give this obsession with MT a rest.
What crack are you smoking, because I want some? Actually shocking the merc doesn't work against this idea, and yet you can sneak past the merc. As far as different color scheme, the concept is entirely different. One scheme inverts shadows, this one deepens them. The main balance concern with this vision is that it may nerf aggro too much (which may very well be a valid concern), but it's certainly not the vision that forces you to shock the merc to bypass.
Your comment seems to suggest that you haven't been reading anything that I've written here. so I don't know what to say beyond telling you to re-read the initial idea before you start typing. While it might or might not be overpowered, I'm not sure how anyone can take your opinion seriously when you have failed to demonstrate even 3rd grade reading skills.
As far as High Quality post render versus normal post render, it's really not as big a deal as a lot of people think it is. While it makes it easier to use MT as night vision, it isn't exactly essential. Having played on xbox as well as PC, I've had some time to play around with normal post render, and while it's not as clear at long ranges, at medium to close range it functions almost as good. Spies aren't as clear, but they're still quite visible, meaning it's not much of a nerf as far as night vision goes. You can't do true MT cheese like you can on PC, like sniping across the level while in MT, but spies won't be sneaking past you at all. Believe me, you get used to normal post render, and it's still a very effective form of night vision. I've played 500+ hours using normal post render. It's not all that difficult to use it as MT.
Goodkebab's idea of getting rid of the nightvision entirely could fix the problem, at least on some levels. At the very least that may make you care when someone flicks off the lights on bank. It's still rather difficult to sneak past MT though, given you've got to go at a crawl. So even slightly going into a partially lit area probably gives you away, but at the very least more deep shadows mean that MT whores may have to switch off MT for a few seconds to check them with their flashlights.
Quote
Adding a max distance to the grey box similar in range to EMF and removing its NV capability might also help. However, those might not be necessary once the major bugs are fixed and the above changes are implemented. I mean, the point is that in order to get to an objective, you're going to have to move. Ultimately that will make any motion-detecting device paired with a diligent patrol route a generally superior means of detection.
This is exactly the problem with MT. It beats aggro, it's a superior means of spy detection... It's the best at everything. MT really does need a conceptual redesign. It shouldn't exist both to detect spies better than normal vision and to counter aggro.
No one vision should do everything.
Quote
What crack are you smoking,
Quote
Detection Capabilities: CV also has a detection box feature, similar to MT, that works in a 360 radius. The following things set it off. The box can detect beyond the maximum visual range of CV, though it wont' detect a spy behind total cover.
* Any action that makes sound on the Sound Detector, such as running, drawing a gun, etc.
* Shooting the sticky shocker or firing one of its gadgets.
* Rolling spies
This is MT, moron.
QuoteActually shocking the merc doesn't work against this idea,
Oh, even better.
Quoteand yet you can sneak past the merc.
Really? Oh because the box doesn't detect the spy when he's going slow? That's what a patrolling is for.
Your idea is MT with sunglasses that the spies can't forcefully remove, and it's stupid. Give it a rest.
QuoteI've had some time to play around with normal post render, and while it's not as clear at long ranges, at medium to close range it functions almost as good. Spies aren't as clear, but they're still quite visible, meaning it's not much of a nerf as far as night vision goes. You can't do true MT cheese like you can on PC, like sniping across the level while in MT, but spies won't be sneaking past you at all. Believe me, you get used to normal post render, and it's still a very effective form of night vision.
That's the whole point. Normal post-render is the slight nerf that MT needs. You have three equipment items that can be used to know where the merc is -- when he comes near you, it's time to find a better hiding spot. The fact that a merc can discover you when he's "at close or medium range" isn't MT's fault, it's your fault for being out in the open when the merc is near you.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 08:48:49 PM
Quote
Detection Capabilities: CV also has a detection box feature, similar to MT, that works in a 360 radius. The following things set it off. The box can detect beyond the maximum visual range of CV, though it wont' detect a spy behind total cover.
* Any action that makes sound on the Sound Detector, such as running, drawing a gun, etc.
* Shooting the sticky shocker or firing one of its gadgets.
* Rolling spies
This is MT, moron.
Apparently you missed the part about how you can do a normal crouch walk past it. That's a huge change.
In addition, it has no night vision, it deepens the shadows, making it harder to see a spy, not easier.
Still sound like the MT you know?
QuoteThat's the whole point. Normal post-render is the slight nerf that MT needs. You have three equipment items that can be used to know where the merc is -- when he comes near you, it's time to find a better hiding spot. The fact that a merc can discover you when he's "at close or medium range" isn't MT's fault, it's your fault for being out in the open when the merc is near you.
This isn't double agent, nor do I want it to be. You don't have the luxury of having 15+ secret spy routes that have total cover to the merc's vision. This is CT, the game where sometimes you've got to slip past a merc, and that generally means he has a chance of seeing you. The problem with MT is that it takes forever to slow crouch past it, and he can also see you if he happens to turn in your direction.
Part of this game is sometimes you're going to have to sneak past the merc. I want spies to have a chance to be spotted. If they're just crawling around vents, what's the fun of that? What I don't want is some ubervision giving the merc the ability to see in darkness and automatically pointing them out if they move faster than a snail's pace.
I've played CT on xbox with normal post render. Trust me, MT is almost as hard to beat there.
While the detection system for MT or whatever we'll call it, is still under discussion. Perhapse a different visual view is needed. I think it should be rather simple and eliminate the ability to see but not the ability to navigate a level.
After I finish work i'll show you what I mean. The suckyness of MT is the ability of Nightvision and it's sensitivity. We can play with the sensitivity, but we should make the vision our own.
If the goal is to copy SvM gameplay, then I think that only minimal changes to vision modes should be made. Besides, small changes often have large impacts on balance. Taking away high-quality graphics + taking away NV + nerfing sensitivity to not pick up fast crouch movement might = spies go rampant.
Invisible, you need to stop being hung up about modifying the game so that you can bypass the mercs in a specific way that you desire. I'm sorry, but crouch walking past a merc in open view when you don't have anyone distracting the merc is a pipedream unless you're playing morons. It's not MT that's the culprit because I find spies just fine without whoring MT 90% of the time; it's the fact that human players are intelligent and are actually actively looking for you. If I'm playing Museum, I know that there are generally 3 places the spies have to cross to infiltrate the map: on the ceiling, going to outer monolith vent, or going to exhibition vent. Between two mercs, multiple mines, spytraps/camnet, it's not that hard to find spies crawling around, even without MT.
Normal post render + slow crouch walking on a slant doesn't detect + camo that doesn't alert mercs to your presence from nearly infinite distance will probably balance MT enough. Camo will be the natural stealth hard counter to an MT whore, and shock + chaff will be the natural aggro hard counter. You won't even need to change the night vision part of it. IF that doesn't balance MT enough, then you can start with the NV and max sight radius and all this other crap. But I really think that will do the trick.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 09:37:00 PM
Taking away high-quality graphics + taking away NV + nerfing sensitivity to not pick up fast crouch movement might = spies go rampant.
Why do you think that? I mean, how much damage can a fast crouching spy really do?
Quote
Invisible, you need to stop being hung up about modifying the game so that you can bypass the mercs in a specific way that you desire. I'm sorry, but crouch walking past a merc in open view when you don't have anyone distracting the merc is a pipedream unless you're playing morons.
Nah, you just wait for them to look away, then you cross from cover to cover. It's not exactly crossing a wide open space, but just moving from one point of cover to the next, and that's very possible. It's hard but at least it's possible.
It also means that the merc has to actually see you with his own eyes. He doesn't have the benefit of just automatically being told you're there.
QuoteIt's not MT that's the culprit because I find spies just fine without whoring MT 90% of the time; it's the fact that human players are intelligent and are actually actively looking for you. If I'm playing Museum, I know that there are generally 3 places the spies have to cross to infiltrate the map: on the ceiling, going to outer monolith vent, or going to exhibition vent. Between two mercs, multiple mines, spytraps/camnet, it's not that hard to find spies crawling around, even without MT.
Yeah, museum is a rather easy map to lock down. But that's not true of every map.
Quote
Normal post render + slow crouch walking on a slant doesn't detect + camo that doesn't alert mercs to your presence from nearly infinite distance will probably balance MT enough. Camo will be the natural stealth hard counter to an MT whore, and shock + chaff will be the natural aggro hard counter. You won't even need to change the night vision part of it. IF that doesn't balance MT enough, then you can start with the NV and max sight radius and all this other crap. But I really think that will do the trick.
Possibly fixing camo may be the answer. If camo is better, then it could fix the problem. But even still, slow crouching takes forever. One of the really powerful things about MT is that even if they sneak past you, which is difficult at best, to do so, they've needed to burn up a lot of time slow crouching, so they've used up more precious seconds than they normally would even if they succeed in evading you. It tends to amount to a lose-lose situation.
QuotePossibly fixing camo may be the answer. If camo is better, then it could fix the problem. But even still, slow crouching takes forever. One of the really powerful things about MT is that even if they sneak past you, which is difficult at best, to do so, they've needed to burn up a lot of time slow crouching, so they've used up more precious seconds than they normally would even if they succeed in evading you. It tends to amount to a lose-lose situation.
Yes, stealth is slow.
QuoteYeah, museum is a rather easy map to lock down. But that's not true of every map.
Yes, it is. There are always a select few places where the spies are going to be on any map, because these places are strategically more important. For example, if you're in club house and haven't heard any action for 20 seconds or so and don't see anything on camnet, the spies cooped. Theres almost a 0 chance that they're hanging out somwhere near the garden glass hack, since that serves no purpose.
This thread = this thread http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php/topic,333.0.html (http://projectstealth.splintercellnetwork.com/index.php/topic,333.0.html)
LOL.
If you two are done comparing dicks, I'd like to point out that normal post render alone is not going to fix MT. Deepening the shadows to avoid the NV effect (not inverting the light map) would be an improvement. MT has not broken the game yet and is not God mode if you play smart. It does not require a complete redesign, only some tweaks to pull it back into balance.
most people agree with you Binary, its just that a selective population are more vocal of their opinions then they are representative of the common opinion.
Whatever. Think TRON for my version of MT.
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7776/mtpa3.jpg
Quote from: Daybreak on September 07, 2007, 12:43:22 AM
Whatever. Think TRON for my version of MT.
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7776/mtpa3.jpg
Heh, I actually thought of something similar to that. A wireframe display. I just never mentioned it because I wasn't sure how difficult that would be to code. It seems like it'd require a lot of programming to make it go. But that'd be nice for navigation view.
If that's codeable, it'd be really cool.
Uh. The game IS wireframes =/
I think a wire-framed MT is technically possible. But would it be a good solution? I am doubting that.
dunno... gets rid of night vision.
then there's just the normal problems to solve, plus it'd be a unique vision. I'm playing Metroid Corruption and was thinking instead of heat vision for spies, and Xray vision would also work. But that's another thread.
I'm playing Metroid Corruption too! I'm at the Elysia seed. Lets be buddies. :-*
Quote from: goodkebab on September 07, 2007, 12:25:09 AM
most people agree with you Binary, its just that a selective population are more vocal of their opinions then they are representative of the common opinion.
I'm mostly in agreement with B1nary, too. I just think that we should play with it with forced normal post-render, fixed bugs in terms of sensitivity, and fixed camo before deciding that the lightmaps have to be inverted as well. Even though the changes are minor, PS is going to play much different than CT just from fixing the bugs. That needs to be taken into account before hitting MT so hard with a nerf bat.
Small gradual changes > large, sweeping changes.
I think we should just take away its night vision abilities and also its ability to detect slowly moving spies ( slow crouching, slow walking maybe ). Maybe give it a smaller range, like the length of sea tunnel in Aqua (someone already used that as an example and I thought it would be easy to visualize )
Then would everyone including me be happy?
Quote from: Papa Skull on September 07, 2007, 02:29:36 AM
Then would everyone including me be happy?
I don't think that's ever possible.
But that is what everyone seems to be complaining about, including me. Just the fact that you can't sneak by a merc and there isn't a downside to it, if there are downsides and you can sneak by mercs somewhat then I think everyone would be okay with it right?
One cool idea is making Mt have an Ambient Occlusion without any textures in real time....but i think only Zed would know if we could do that.
Basically, you render the image without any textures, but with shadows, give it a monochromatic color pass, perhaps blur the image a bit and give a glow effect to soften the image and then have brightly glowing motion trails on anything that moves.
What happens is everything has the exact same color, and shadows are used to create enough detail to navigate the map.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.antropus.com%2Fprivate%2Fcustom_portfolio%2Fcharacters%2Foldlady%2Fambient001.jpg&hash=d5778dc19c77c7a7fedcc81b8c5463155106a2e3)
that my friend is a scary picture.
That is one SEXY biatch! Dunno how the end result would turn out, but the ambient occlusion sounds like it could make an interesting mt vision mode with some grainy/cellular post effects etc.
The concept is really something. Would make a great difference in gameplay. Mercs would love it too. Now it's up to you guys from the Project Stealth to decide if you put it in the game or not.
I don't get it. How would it make good MT?
Aside from the look of it being rather unique, its function is being retained while restricting its detection to a reasonable level. Granted, imo, a level of visibility should be there when the spy is standing in a well lit area, but if the spy is in camo or a shadow he should be invisible to MT.
IMO, the shadow/ light thing shouldn't be taken into account with MT, since MOTION tracking depends on motion, not shadows and lights.
This of this vision as like it was a 3D recreation of a sonar. Only geometry would be displayed, no texture.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on September 07, 2007, 10:39:06 PM
IMO, the shadow/ light thing shouldn't be taken into account with MT, since MOTION tracking depends on motion, not shadows and lights.
While this is true, imagine moving through a map without any objects being defined by shadow or light. Even realistically speaking MT requires SOME sort of visual display or else the wearer is blind to everything except movement. Not to mention that most MT systems are not mobile as the hardware reads objects going by the same way it would read a person running through its FOV.
What about a vision which uses a shitload of motion blur? That way, you CAN navigate, but it's hard.
A moving Spy will be really clear. Big contrast.
Quote from: frvge on September 08, 2007, 12:30:38 AM
What about a vision which uses a shitload of motion blur? That way, you CAN navigate, but it's hard.
A moving Spy will be really clear. Big contrast.
Also nauseating...
Maybe... needs testing.
That would be cool, and pretty damn original if you ask me. Still it should only detect faster movement like moving full speed while crouching should be the maximum speed it detects. What would happen if a spy was detected? Would the textures and color appear on the spy while he is moving? THat would be tight. The only thing that would be strange about this ( other than the pictures ) is how it would show up on the merc's faceplate. How would the spy know that he has this vision on? Would his faceplate by white and glowing or something?