Make this a place to post your pictures of vision modes.
A couple of basic rules, this is only visual style, NOT a new vision mode(sound vision, xray vision, combat vision). Visions will still have the basic functionality of CT visions -even if MT is debateable. So if you dont like the current MT, post an ingame screenshot of a CT game, and color correct it in Photoshop to show the style of the vision mode.
Also, if you know of another game with cool vision modes....post those as well to see if we can come up with something new.
Post your idea and prepare to get flamed.
MT Fix.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg246.imageshack.us%2Fimg246%2F4559%2Fmtwe4.jpg&hash=788edbb0e5a57579f3d2af285dd5d8b3b241a40c)
If it'd work with a limited radius or w/e, it's another problem. I mean only the look of it.
Download Link: http://rapidshare.com/files/54023589/MTConcept1.avi.html
Web-Player Link: http://stage6.divx.com/user/MRMIC/video/1611789/PS-MT-Concept-1
A mock up animation I made with max and some materials.
It's basically EMF, but sensitive to motion.
It has fog, and the surfaces are colored based on your viewing angle.
There is not supposed to be a grey box or any form of overt indicator.
You just become visible when you start moving.
The faster you move, the more lit up you are.
When perfectly still, there is a (very) small camo-like distortion.
The upside to this is that it's easy to navigate the map, but really hard to see the spies unless they are moving.
EDIT:
Here's my second concept:
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 07, 2007, 11:16:11 PM
After some talking with spekkio this morning, I made a second concept.
Download: http://rapidshare.com/files/54094748/conceptnewfinal.avi.html
Web-Player: http://stage6.divx.com/user/MRMIC/video/1612884/PC-MT-Concept-2B
A new mock up animation I made with max and some materials.
It's still basically EMF, but sensitive to motion.
It still has fog, and the surfaces are colored based on your viewing angle.
It is easier to see a spy when it's moving and a grey box and a sound comes up for running spies.
The detection is 360, and the fog represents the detection radius (grey box or otherwise) of MT.
It will detect exactly the same speeds as CT's mt. I just wanted to show the two different effects.
You become visible when you start moving.
The faster you move, the more visible up you are (and vice versa).
When perfectly still, you are completely transparent.
Camo will also have no effect on MT, if you move, you are seen (and vice versa).
As for smoke (smoke will appear to be black noise, just like the crouching spy) , the grey spy model will draw over any existing particles or geometry until it disappears, just like the old MT.
EDIT: Here's another version I made for the ungreyboxed spy with particle effects, like visualizing the air being pushed around:
http://stage6.divx.com/user/MRMIC/video/1612195/PS-MT-Concept-2
I take back the MT fix...Mic's one ftw.
Brazil's photo is an example of going overboard with MT nerfing. How the hell are you supposed to navigate the map to chase the spy who's running away?
I like MR.Mic's idea, but now you can't detect aggro spies behind you. I think that's important to have.
i was thinking some sort of alien/predator motion tracking effect. can't remember which it is. but you only see stuff if it moves, so if you were standing still, everything would be black except for random physics props dangling about and the spies. but then if you go into a chase, the motion blur and stuff would make it difficult to see the spy. thus, ye wouldn't use it all the time.
Mic, thats going in the direction i was thinking.
Apparently its really fast and easy to do a fake ambient occlusion render (no textures, just normal maps, transparency, and shadows) and it can work in real time.
Instead of making the Spy transparent, perhaps make him the exact same color as the background which without textures, would blend with him perfectly.
Fading to black also has a way of highlighting the foreground to much maybe....hmmm with work i am sure we can get the right look.
Spekkio, we currently working on just the shader for the moment...angle of view and sensitivity are the coders job and will be tweakable.
EDIT: Yea, but there's no "gray box" or ping or anything like that to let you know someone is running around behind you in Mr.Mic's proposal.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 07, 2007, 05:54:04 PM
If MT only works in FOV, there's no point to even having the vision mode.
You have a point, there.
EDIT: Even though I'm not a fan of completely reworking the visions right away, Mr.Mic brings up a good point: MOTION tracking shouldn't be able to detect a stationary spy at all, whether he's in the shadows, light, or anywhere else. So his concept is a pretty good one: MT ignores lighting completely in favor of detecting motion. The map is still easily navigated, probably moreso in dark areas since it ignores light the way that EMF ignores light.
I would say to gradually fade the spy into existance via how fast he's moving up to a certain threshold. If the spy dives, rolls, or runs, then he gets a gray box. This is so that MT retains its function against aggro spies, but you can bypass the merc by sneaking by when he's not looking at you. You could even stalk a merc by crouching, but if that's too powerful the threshold could always be lowered to include fast crouch movement.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 07, 2007, 05:52:49 PM
Apparently its really fast and easy to do a fake ambient occlusion render (no textures, just normal maps, transparency, and shadows) and it can work in real time.
It's even easier, low-tech, and faster (computationally and development-wise) to use a camera-space environment map + z-fog. I could make the shaders in a few minutes with just the UT2004 material editor. (even though we arent using that engine)
I don't like Mr.Mic's idea. It's a little uncreative and old for me. It's pretty much the equivalent of cloaking when stationary which has been done to death (but still very fun in Natural Selection ;D).
I don't like the whole idea of stationary + nothing = invisible(ish). It has no thought for the spy other than to stop...and I've played that game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light%2C_green_light) before (lol @ second and third paragraphs).
Anyway, my idea...
Quote from: Overstatement on May 11, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader. Blend stuff of like distances and contrast stuff of unlike distances. So a spy next to a wall will be blended together while a spy out in the corridor will contrast with the wall that's far away.
Quote from: Overstatement on May 27, 2007, 10:51:56 PM
things I want to put out there is the change in MT where we use the distance of the surfaces from the player in the calcuations. So that surfaces that are close together appear blended (regardless of lighting) and surfaces that are far part are contrasted.
...Is it odd that I remember saying these things or that I still agree with them?
QuoteI don't like the whole idea of stationary + nothing = invisible(ish). It has no thought for the spy other than to stop...and I've played that game before (lol @ second and third paragraphs).
That's what you have 2 other vision modes for.
I like Mic's version of MT. The nice thing about Mic's change too is that it works pretty well regardless of resolution, so it's not something we have to really worry about being broken by super high res displays.
I don't really have a problem with MT seeing terrain well. It's the whole spy detection thing that really matters. Mic's change will mean that at the very least MT loses night vision capabilities and also loses 360 detection. That's pretty huge change wise.
Also if we wanted to make a spy more obvious at higher speeds we could introduce some other mechanics, perhaps a color shift. So a running spy appears as a bright purple or something that's easily discernible.
Perhaps I'm not in the minority with wanting significant changes to MT, as Mic's fix isn't anything close to MT as we know it.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 07, 2007, 09:24:43 PM
QuoteI don't like the whole idea of stationary + nothing = invisible(ish). It has no thought for the spy other than to stop...and I've played that game before (lol @ second and third paragraphs).
That's what you have 2 other vision modes for.
I said it has no thought for the spy. As a spy, you would not worry at all if a merc was looking at you, even if he's right in front of you, if you do not move. With my idea, you would need to find paths that stick to the walls and quickly transverse gaps that leave you visible.
Besides, treating a spy as a special object is such a computery programy thing to do. He's the only object that disappears when it stops, it would make no sense that real-life MT would work that way. NOTE: There is a difference between "realistic" (which people hate as a point of argument) and "makes no sense".
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
I don't like Mr.Mic's idea. It's a little uncreative and old for me. It's pretty much the equivalent of cloaking when stationary which has been done to death (but still very fun in Natural Selection ;D).
If it works, use it.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
I don't like the whole idea of stationary + nothing = invisible(ish). It has no thought for the spy other than to stop...and I've played that game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light%2C_green_light) before (lol @ second and third paragraphs).
Well wtf do you want man? Motion tracking detects MOTION. Clearly, staying still is a perfect way to avoid this.
And if the spy stops, it sucks that you're only using one vision mode.
Darkness counters normal vision.
Stopping counters motion tracking.
Not using equpiment counters EMF.
For everything at once, there's the laser/flashlight.
It's like paper-rock-scissors. You can't have it all in one vision.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
Anyway, my idea...
Quote from: Overstatement on May 11, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader. Blend stuff of like distances and contrast stuff of unlike distances. So a spy next to a wall will be blended together while a spy out in the corridor will contrast with the wall that's far away.
You mean a zdepth shader...
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edharriss.com%2Ftape%2Flighting%2Frendering%2Fzdepth.jpg&hash=611b06fd629092f5121329924ff6a01147eb9e99)
It's an ok idea, until you start bumping into shit and greeble on the ground because you cant tell the difference between those and the floor when the zdepth is taken into lower relative dynamic ranges by spanning a room.
I stand by this statement...
NO VISION MODE SHOULD INHIBIT YOUR ABILITY TO NAVIGATE A MAP, EVER.Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
Quote from: Overstatement on May 27, 2007, 10:51:56 PM
things I want to put out there is the change in MT where we use the distance of the surfaces from the player in the calcuations. So that surfaces that are close together appear blended (regardless of lighting) and surfaces that are far part are contrasted.
...Is it odd that I remember saying these things or that I still agree with them?
Yes
that video scared the shit out of me
I like the idea, but I think the spy should be made more distinguishable when moving. Also how would a spy look through smoke? Other than that, it looks great.
Quote from: kronf on September 07, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
I like the idea, but I think the spy should be made more distinguishable when moving. Also how would a spy look through smoke? Other than that, it looks great.
I'm actually working on a vid that addresses this issue.
Mics idea seems ok to me.
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 07, 2007, 09:43:55 PM
You mean a zdepth shader...
...when the zdepth is taken into lower relative dynamic ranges by spanning a room.
Yeah, if that's how you want to think of it, it uses the zbuffer but that's only part of it. And I don't think a complex engine like Unreal3 would be limited by such things as low zbuffer precision.
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 07, 2007, 09:43:55 PM
I stand by this statement...
NO VISION MODE SHOULD INHIBIT YOUR ABILITY TO NAVIGATE A MAP, EVER.
I don't think my MT would make you bump into walls.
I think your MT is a little too weak. As Spekkio said:
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 04:48:29 PM
I can see spies moving in front of my face just fine, thankyouverymuch.
(along with not seeing a stationary spy under any conditions)
Quote from: kronf on September 07, 2007, 10:07:16 PM
I like the idea, but I think the spy should be made more distinguishable when moving. Also how would a spy look through smoke? Other than that, it looks great.
It's pretty easy to make the spy more distinguishable, you just make him a more contrasting color.
I'd think it'd be cool if the spy actually changed colors depending on how fast he was going, just to make him more apparent.
Quote
I think your MT is a little too weak.
Yeah, it is a pretty serious nerf with no 360 detection at all. I wonder how it would fare against aggro?
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 10:23:27 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 07, 2007, 09:43:55 PM
You mean a zdepth shader...
...when the zdepth is taken into lower relative dynamic ranges by spanning a room.
Yeah, if that's how you want to think of it, it uses the zbuffer but that's only part of it. And I don't think a complex engine like Unreal3 would be limited by such things as low zbuffer precision.
I'm not talking about low-precision z-buffer.
Anyway, I did a mock up of what I imagine your version of MT would look like.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg184.imageshack.us%2Fimg184%2F9339%2Fover2ko8.png&hash=5295ba76fa828b901c60536ba982355a868594fa)
The spies are circled for ease of viewing.
i think he means use the zbuffer as a sort of image multiplier on top of the standard MT so stuff gets darker when it's further away. doesn't mt have that anyway? whats the difference between this and fog?
After some talking with spekkio this morning, I made a second concept.
Download: http://rapidshare.com/files/54094748/conceptnewfinal.avi.html
Web-Player: http://stage6.divx.com/user/MRMIC/video/1612884/PC-MT-Concept-2B
A new mock up animation I made with max and some materials.
It's still basically EMF, but sensitive to motion.
It still has fog, and the surfaces are colored based on your viewing angle.
It is easier to see a spy when it's moving and a grey box and a sound comes up for running spies.
The detection is 360, and the fog represents the detection radius (grey box or otherwise) of MT.
It will detect exactly the same speeds as CT's mt. I just wanted to show the two different effects.
You become visible when you start moving.
The faster you move, the more visible up you are (and vice versa).
When perfectly still, you are completely transparent.
Camo will also have no effect on MT, if you move, you are seen (and vice versa).
As for smoke (smoke will appear to be black noise, just like the crouching spy) , the grey spy model will draw over any existing particles or geometry until it disappears, just like the old MT.
EDIT: Here's another version I made for the ungreyboxed spy with particle effects, like visualizing the air being pushed around:
http://stage6.divx.com/user/MRMIC/video/1612195/PS-MT-Concept-2
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
I don't like Mr.Mic's idea. It's a little uncreative and old for me. It's pretty much the equivalent of cloaking when stationary which has been done to death (but still very fun in Natural Selection ;D).
I don't like the whole idea of stationary + nothing = invisible(ish). It has no thought for the spy other than to stop...and I've played that game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light%2C_green_light) before (lol @ second and third paragraphs).
No thought? maybe, but is it thrilling for the spy, you better believe it. Maybe you haven't had the experience of being in the same room as a merc and having him run into you multiple times. It takes balls not to freak out and run. It's stupid sure, but those are times I'm sure I'm about to have a heart attack. It's great.
I'd love to be able to cloak be completely invisible. It's what I've always wanted to cloak to be. I'd hide in the middle of rooms all the time. I'd shit my pants almost every game... but atleast I'd be having fun.
i like mr.mics mt, but with one change: it should also detect crouching spies.
the small radius and total invisibility are strong enough.
what about camo? i think though this way camo gets unuseful countering mt (unless it has any influence), camo will get boosted as normal vision is the only one to see long range.
Quote from: Gawain on September 07, 2007, 11:41:13 PM
i like mr.mics mt, but with one change: it should also detect crouching spies.
It will detect exactly the same as CT's mt. I just wanted to show the two different effects.
Quote from: Gawain on September 07, 2007, 11:41:13 PM
what about camo?
Camo will have no effect on MT, if you move, you are seen (and vice versa).
Quote from: Gawain on September 07, 2007, 11:41:13 PM
i think though this way camo gets unuseful countering mt (unless it has any influence), camo will get boosted as normal vision is the only one to see long range.
I think this is good, because Camo is almost a completely useless equipment as of now.
will still need to add visual detail like normal maps and shadows, a noise filter along with the hexagon texture.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 08, 2007, 12:50:35 AM
will still need to add visual detail like normal maps and shadows,
Why is this?
The point of my new MT is to ignore lighting completely (no lighting or shadows).
That avoids the NV and the navigation difficulty problem altogether.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 08, 2007, 12:50:35 AM
a noise filter along with the hexagon texture.
The noise and the hexagon patterns are both just simple overlay textures.
The only filter needed is a blur pass.
CleanRender -> BlurPass -> HexOverlay -> NoiseOverlay
I love Goodkebab's idea of ambient occlusion with no textures. What if the faster a spy moved, the more the textures and colors would be visible on him? If he is running, a black and greenish spy would stick out like a sore thumb in a gray atmosphere. I believe that the minimum speed in which a spy is walking to be detected on motion tracker, is full speed while crouching.
the mt concept is really sweet, especially the louder/brighter you are the faster you move. but it is still scary as hell
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 08, 2007, 01:05:27 AM
The noise and the hexagon patterns are both just simple overlay textures.
The only filter needed is a blur pass.
CleanRender -> BlurPass -> HexOverlay -> NoiseOverlay
Seems easy enough. I like MICs idea.
I like your idea Mic. Suggestion: Is it possible to make the spy fade in and out of the MT in correspondence to whatever speed the spy is going? That would make most sense. Slow walk shows a faded few with the MT showing no spy right away when he is completely stopped. When your spy stops in the demo, is stays on him for a sec and then turns off, yet he is still lit up quite brightly for being stopped. I think based on the spy's speed he is going should determine how lit up he is.
Quote from: Westfall-US on September 08, 2007, 09:09:51 AM
I like your idea Mic. Suggestion: Is it possible to make the spy fade in and out of the MT in correspondence to whatever speed the spy is going? That would make most sense. Slow walk shows a faded few with the MT showing no spy right away when he is completely stopped. When your spy stops in the demo, is stays on him for a sec and then turns off, yet he is still lit up quite brightly for being stopped. I think based on the spy's speed he is going should determine how lit up he is.
That's the idea. The spy will be instantly invisible if he's not highlighted by MT yet. If the spy is highlighted by MT, it will take a second to disappear after he moves below the detection threshold, just like how MT is now.
It wont look exactly like what I did in 3d studio, because that's just an animation with keyframes to control material opacity and such. The animation is just to give an idea of the look I'd like this to shoot for.
I find the one where the spy leaves something like a dark trail behind him to be the best out of all.
I would really like to see ghost trail effect (air disturbance)....And the idea of using green against red is a wicked idea when MT is set off. Doing a lock using a box is optional i guess, but things that are tracked by MT need to be instantly recognizable. Also, why not make it a glowing green silohuette of the character instead of shaded version just for the sake of appearance.
I suggested adding normal maps only and shadows merely for aethetics. Normal mapping is to give illusion of depth where there is none...take that away and your going to see only flat boxes and planes.
Shadows, can still be there in order to increase visual depth and volume of the map, if you are literally making the spy transparent, then it should not matter. Also, take away shadows and mercs will still use MT for nightvision to navigate map.
Anyone have the movie predator and want to post a video clip of the MT?
i like the idea, because it makes mt what it is meant to do: detect motion, and not stationary spies (especially in the dark). i also like the ghost trail effect.
i really think it should detect crouching spies, too. and it should work with no delay.
the really tricky thing will be finding the right radius...
Quote from: goodkebab on September 08, 2007, 02:26:07 PM
take away shadows and mercs will still use MT for nightvision to navigate map.
Which is a good thing since mercs can navigate easily, and still not be able to see spies.
It's like that in EMF, so why not MT?
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 08, 2007, 05:58:17 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 08, 2007, 02:26:07 PM
take away shadows and mercs will still use MT for nightvision to navigate map.
Which is a good thing since mercs can navigate easily, and still not be able to see spies.
It's like that in EMF, so why not MT?
Yeah, pretty much nobody cares if mercs can see the map in NV, they just don't want them to see spies that way.
A MT idea that both Invisible and Spekkio agree on?...???...I don't get it...
Quote from: Overstatement on September 08, 2007, 07:02:38 PM
A MT idea that both Invisible and Spekkio agree on?...???...I don't get it...
:D
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 08, 2007, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 08, 2007, 05:58:17 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 08, 2007, 02:26:07 PM
take away shadows and mercs will still use MT for nightvision to navigate map.
Which is a good thing since mercs can navigate easily, and still not be able to see spies.
It's like that in EMF, so why not MT?
Yeah, pretty much nobody cares if mercs can see the map in NV, they just don't want them to see spies that way.
Yep, we actually agree here. Take away MT's NV capability or detection radius, and you are giving a large buff to aggro spies.
The problem with NV wasn't the fact that mercs could use it to navigate, but the fact that mercs could use it to detect spies hiding stationary in what ordinarilly would be a dark place. Mr.Mic's idea circumvents that.
Kebab,
I don't like the idea of a graphics trail the way Mr.Mic showed it in his presentation. While it would look cool, it would make it harder to aim at the spy. The purpose to using MT should be to clearly locate and identify spies so that you can kill them. A trail inhibits that.
Mic,
I still think camo should be somewhat of a moving counter to MT. The idea that "not moving counters MT" is a sound theory, but that's all it is. In reality, the spies have to move around or the time runs out. That's part of what makes MT so powerful to begin with.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 08, 2007, 07:02:38 PM
A MT idea that both Invisible and Spekkio agree on?...???...I don't get it...
Yeah, I'm certainly the most confused, given that mic's idea seems like more of a heavier nerf to MT than any of the ones I've suggested.
I mean, his idea doesn't have 360 detection at all, and you become invisible when you're standing still.
But hey, I'm glad he likes it, since this one seems like it will probably make it into the game, and that'll be a really good thing.
QuoteI mean, his idea doesn't have 360 detection at all, and you become invisible when you're standing still.
Yes it does, so long as the spy is standing and running. Might have to add it for crouching and going quickly too, but we'll see.
this is just a quick mock of the visual style, you have to understand that it is a quick and dirty sketch essentially so no one should assume it is the finished product or think that it is ready for criticism. Normally these decisions are not made in public, but the UI crits have gone so well that I thought it would be cool to get user input on such a controversial topic. Mic has done a great job so far and its awesome to hear that people like the direction it is going.
I still want to see it with normal maps and shadows simply for aesthetics and to keep a professional look to it. Taking all of that out and making spy invisible when nothing else is, feels like a cheap hack to me. Emf ghost is plausable because everything is transparent so why not spy? MT transparency doesnt work for me because physical objects block visual movement -including spy, so seeing through the spy is not consistent. Removing textures will make the spy look white in white areas, black in black areas. Only the Normal maps shadow from the spy would give him away (which we can turn off on the spy). The only time a Spy should be look invisible in MT is when he is using Camo.
The problem with DOF effect is that it requires the invisiblity trick to work, other wise a close or mid distant spy will show up against black areas (distant area) created by the DOF even IF the spy is hidden in the darkest shadows. So perhaps we should remove Spy from the DOF pass, and do a multiplicative composite with the DOF in post process on top of an Ambient Occlusion pass that is faked by using Normals and Lighting. That way spies will be impossible to see at long ranges, but not be invisible. At mid range, they would still be invisible because there are no textures and normals are blurred. At close range in bright light the Spy would be visible merely because the of the normal and shadow discrepencies, but in shadows he would be impossible to see.
The motion trail effect is not meant to distort aiming ability, but to give the effect of limited level of the tech that the merc has. Again, it is a subtle effect and cannot be judged until seeing.
I know its a tricky argument to balance game play with reality, and we have to sacrifice reality sometimes, but we dont want to lose the immersive feeling of believability.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 09, 2007, 09:00:58 PM
QuoteI mean, his idea doesn't have 360 detection at all, and you become invisible when you're standing still.
Yes it does, so long as the spy is standing and running. Might have to add it for crouching and going quickly too, but we'll see.
without detecting crouching this vision is fucked up.
camo should have some influence on visibility, but a spy in the dark shouldn't appear generally.
Gawain, you're completely missing the point: MT shouldn't depend on whether it's light or dark, but rather whether or not the spy is moving.
Kebab, I have no idea what you just said. Generally, I think that yes shadows should be added for aesthetic reasons, and objects should be solid for the reason you said. However, I don't think it would be bad if MT still inverted the shadows, so long as the spy was always invisible while not moving.
Having the spy invisible all the time (If that's what you're saying) makes no sense. A spy being able to hide in a perfectly lit or perfectly dark area as long as he doesn't silhouette himself against the background makes sense. But camo should have to be used in order to become totally invisible to MT.
Again, I disagree there. Motion tracking should detect motion. If you're not moving, you can't be seen. If the makers of PS are going to re-work the vision, then that is what they need to build the concept around. If they are going to make a spy visible when he's not moving, then you might as well just throw the old MT in the game and save yourself the work because it's more of the same.
As for camo, making it somewhat of a moving counter to MT could be ok.
What if camo ups the bar on which you're seen?
Most notably: normally, you're seen at crouch-running speed. With camo, you're not detected.
Camo probably doesnt work with running, so getting invisible crouch-running and maybe invisible slow-walking (??) will be the only things that are different.
I was actually thinking something along those lines. Could very well work.
sound great.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 10, 2007, 10:07:21 AM
I still want to see it with normal maps and shadows simply for aesthetics and to keep a professional look to it. Taking all of that out and making spy invisible when nothing else is, feels like a cheap hack to me. Emf ghost is plausable because everything is transparent so why not spy? MT transparency doesnt work for me because physical objects block visual movement -including spy, so seeing through the spy is not consistent. Removing textures will make the spy look white in white areas, black in black areas. Only the Normal maps shadow from the spy would give him away (which we can turn off on the spy). The only time a Spy should be look invisible in MT is when he is using Camo.
Well, this sounds more like a realism or common sense argument than anything else. It's easy enough to provide an explanation to that. Perhaps the merc, upon arriving on scene has to calibrate his motion sensor by putting in the terrain information. Because MT only detects moving objects, the terrain is actually pre-programmed and added to the vision, as a navigational aid. MT won't detect a spy that's standing there, because when the merc originally programmed in the terrain, the spy wasn't there. After that, MT detects only moving things.
There's an explanation that actually makes sense (to me anyway).
But really, this is a case where balance should definitely trump realism.
basically i am explaining that making the spy invisible or ghosted in MT is lame and inconsistent. I want to make the spy blend into the background better, and explained how to do this technically without invisibility.
I am all up for making Camo very powerful against MT by making the spy invisible. That is one gadget that should be made easier to use.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 10, 2007, 11:23:03 PM
basically i am explaining that making the spy invisible or ghosted in MT is lame and inconsistent.
But why? It all depends on how you explain it really.
If you use my explanation it makes perfect sense why the spy would be invisible.
If camo is on, there should still be some sort of outline. Maybe a random blur-thin outline of the spy, not showing the spy but showing the existence of a cloak in the room that originally didn't have ah cloak in it.
because Camo already makes the Spy nearly invisible in MT.
Emf already ghosts the Spy and can be used to see through walls.
for believability (dont read realism) simply clamping the colors and degrading the image will make the spy blend perfectly into the environment without using invisibility. I am thinking predator Visions.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:41:23 PM
Besides, treating a spy as a special object is such a computery programy thing to do. He's the only object that disappears when it stops, it would make no sense that real-life MT would work that way.
(assuming they didn't scan the enviroment first like Invisible said)
Is this what you meant? It reminds you that it is a computer controllered world and ruins the atmosphere.
Quotefor believability (dont read realism) simply clamping the colors and degrading the image will make the spy blend perfectly into the environment without using invisibility. I am thinking predator Visions.
So long as it isn't degraded so much that you can't navigate the map I don't care.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 11, 2007, 08:53:02 AM
for believability (dont read realism) simply clamping the colors and degrading the image will make the spy blend perfectly into the environment without using invisibility. I am thinking predator Visions.
Screw believability, I only care about balance.
Are they mutually exclusive?
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 11, 2007, 05:44:45 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 11, 2007, 08:53:02 AM
for believability (dont read realism) simply clamping the colors and degrading the image will make the spy blend perfectly into the environment without using invisibility. I am thinking predator Visions.
Screw believability, I only care about balance.
That's why there are multiple people on a development team, it achieves... ta-da! Balance! Some people will care about believability, some wont. A happy medium should at least pacify those who believe their way is the only and the best way.
Here's believability:
The Motion Tracking Mark-II Vision Augmentation System is integrated with a simplified 3d view of an area. The positioning information is transmitted from a fixed device somewhere in the vicinity of your assigned location. The vision system displays the difference in motion, relative to the fixed device. This prevents the Motion Tracking Mark-II Vision Augmentation System from picking up stationary objects.
The motion vectors are captured from an Infrared camera in the helmet of the user, the difference between captured motion and the user's motion information is then displayed to the user. Keep in mind that this only works in close range, because background noise likes to be picked up as motion after a certain distance.
If an intruder is detected using the Motion Tracking Mark-II Vision Augmentation System, the system attempts to gather enough motion samples to attain a lock. The more movement, the greater number of samples. This means that if an object or intruder has enough motion, the Motion Tracking Mark-II Vision Augmentation System will obtain an object lock (indicated by a monochrome highlight).
cool explanation. i like it 8)
Now you need to communcate it using ingame graphics instead of pasting it somewhere on a website no one will read.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 03:19:34 AM
Now you need to communcate it using ingame graphics instead of pasting it somewhere on a website no one will read.
Oh yeah, just like CT's and PT's MT...
...
...
...
...
oh wait.
Their MT was self-explanatory. A spy fading out of existence is not.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 03:38:07 AM
Their MT was self-explanatory. A spy fading out of existence is not.
Oh right, like how you were seeing light and shade*, but their explanation said it worked on the principles of air pressure.
*with nightvision to boot.
I like to ignore the manual. It also says camo makes you "invisible", Camnet has the tazer icon and can anyone guess what the "spy finder" is?
According to the manual, chaff's main use is disabling surveillance cameras and motion detectors. And apparently, you can "stock up on grenades" at ammo boxes.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 05:23:22 AM
I like to ignore the manual.
Then why the fuck do you care about believability in the first place?
If something works and it's balanced, then what does it matter?
I mean come on, it seems all the people that want to augment the visions with extra crap are just doing it to add graphical bloat for its own sake.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 05:23:22 AM
It also says camo makes you "invisible"
It does, except for EMF or while moving in motion tracking.
So uhhhh, what's the difference here?
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 05:23:22 AM
According to the manual, chaff's main use is disabling surveillance cameras and motion detectors. And apparently, you can "stock up on grenades" at ammo boxes.
This has no relevance to motion tracking at all or the believability of it, nice try though.
Mr.Mic's idea is more self-explanatory than CT/PT's version of MT. MT = MOTION TRACKING. That means it tracks motion, ie if you move you are spotted, if you don't then you aren't. I don't see how this is counter-intuitive in the slightest.
In CT/PT, it doesn't matter what you are doing; MT can see you.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 03:38:07 AM
Their MT was self-explanatory. A spy fading out of existence is not.
Hell, that little demo video that mic posted to show us his vision idea is all the self-explanation you need. And that took all of like 3 seconds to watch.
What's confusing about that?
Quote from: Overstatement on September 12, 2007, 05:23:22 AM
I like to ignore the manual.
The point was, the person that wrote the manual obviously didn't design anything. I doubt the MT's designer thought it would worked off air turbulence. I always thought of it as a mini-visual input processing computer.
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 12, 2007, 05:50:01 AM
Then why the fuck do you care about believability in the first place?
If something works and it's balanced, then what does it matter?
I mean come on, it seems all the people that want to augment the visions with extra crap are just doing it to add graphical bloat for its own sake.
Why wouldn't I care about believability? It's part of the game and it's part of our job to try to get the player away from "I'm playing a game" to "I'm hunting down spies". And in my opinion, your MT would remind people that they are playing a game for reasons I've said. It has the same effect as making some lights breakable and some not, thus reminding you that some guy designed the level and set some flags on each light.
Yes, I do like the balance. Yes, my problem is all about graphics and atmosphere. Yes, I would use your MT but tweek the idea alittle. Yes, it is self-explanatory in the context of playing a game.
Why not do it like DA?
Thats the best way to go, cause nobody wants to sit in a vision mode all game.. and miss all your graphics..
Quote from: tigaer on September 12, 2007, 05:36:36 PM
Why not do it like DA?
Thats the best way to go, cause nobody wants to sit in a vision mode all game.. and miss all your graphics..
BALANCE.
1. Because if MT only works in your LOS with everything else being normal, then it's pointless
2. Because you need something to help defend yourself against aggro, ie flashbangs
3. Because DA is just gay in general
omg one more noob from the ubi forums ::)
there is no problem with believability and athmosphere. just imagine it with the hexagonal pattern, some static noise and the familiar lock box...
6 pages of discussion and nobody but Mic posts an idea
This is a render with shadows and no textures.
There are 2 spies in this image.
They hidden using the existing ideas i already have -no invisibility.
In dark shadows, spies will be 100% impossible to see,
because the shadows are multiplied on top of the
ambient occlusion render. The depth map is also multiplied on top,
making the nearer objects darker and the distant
objects lighter to give a feeling of depth.
-this can be tweaked to hide the spy even more.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg211.imageshack.us%2Fimg211%2F9962%2Fmttestxa8.jpg&hash=9a384899202f99b112215c4637f4cc65e88f0c31)
That looks pretty damn sexy.
I think I see a spy at the front left side. But I am not sure. So I think it passes my personal test.
The items of greatest contention seem to be -
1: Should the spy be completely invisible unless moving : Is your merc partner invisible too unless moving?
2: Should camo be required for the spy to be completely invisible?
3: Is the environment seen real time or pre-programmed into the MT unit (This begs the question: if there are movable objects, boxes etc, are they ghosted in the original position, can you not see them in the new location due to the preprogrammed environment?)
Instead of dragging this on forever, offer up your opinions, post examples and move on to other vision modes. This thread is not MT specific, there is still EMF, Light Amplification and Heat to be discussed so, discuss!
I think there is a spy there in the front left, but I can't be sure. I def can't see the other spy. This seems like it would work. Can we see it in action with a slow walking spy? Maybe a fast walking one too. When it is done of course. Don't rush it.
There is a spy in the lower right corner.... Clearly to see ;)
the effect makes the spies appear transparent because the depth pass and shadows are rendered on top of the spy.
What is not accurate is the self shadowing of the spies which can be turned off to make them less apparent.
But there is a spy in the bottom right corner, right?
Quote from: MulleDK13 on September 12, 2007, 09:15:35 PM
But there is a spy in the bottom right corner, right?
Yes, in the crouched pose.
this is the basic render
the is is post process...blending the depth and shadow pass on top of it.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg62.imageshack.us%2Fimg62%2F6474%2Ftestrenderls9.jpg&hash=acc0f21fa57f0654051dcc965efdfe23033179c2)
i should also mention, if i gave darker shadows...spy would really be impossible to see
Quote from: goodkebab on September 12, 2007, 09:34:36 PM
i should also mention, if i gave darker shadows...spy would really be impossible to see
Well, the problem there would be that it'd be harder to navigate the map.
The one thing I really like about Mic's version is that it allows people to navigate the map flawlessly, while still providing a balanced way for spies to hide from MT.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 12, 2007, 09:50:43 PM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 12, 2007, 09:34:36 PM
i should also mention, if i gave darker shadows...spy would really be impossible to see
Well, the problem there would be that it'd be harder to navigate the map.
The one thing I really like about Mic's version is that it allows people to navigate the map flawlessly, while still providing a balanced way for spies to hide from MT.
Judging by the first mock-up Kebab posted, it really wouldn't be to hard to navigate the map even with deeper shadows. Don't forget, once you've played the map a few times the major pathways will be very clear to you. Also, an MT vision mode should force you to sacrifice a little clarity for the tracking ability IMO.
not at all...shadows make it easier to navigate the map as long as you are not in total darkeness. The balance of light and shadow is designed by the mapper, and will always allow for light in some parts of the room.
the difference is that I am using the same effect as Mics, but adding an ambient occlusion and shadow to the same effect.
I just find it to simple and plane without the details. Also, in the case of Mics method, if you can just as easily lose orientation in small tight rooms. because everything is the same color and not enough depth.
I also inversed the values of the depth map. I felt it looked better if things are darker within 2-3 meters of merc and lighten up further away. That makes it nearly impossible for mercs to detect a spy sitting in shadows within the visual range.
I know I was against making the spy invisible, but the effect pretty much achieves the same result.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 12, 2007, 09:55:27 PM
Also, in the case of Mics method, if you can just as easily lose orientation in small tight rooms. because everything is the same color and not enough depth.
I never had that problem with emf, plus you aren't going to be locked in that single vision the whole game.
It's like you all are expecting everyone to stay in MT the whole game still.
Is it resolution and screen brightness independent?
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 13, 2007, 01:11:14 AM
Quote from: goodkebab on September 12, 2007, 09:55:27 PM
Also, in the case of Mics method, if you can just as easily lose orientation in small tight rooms. because everything is the same color and not enough depth.
I never had that problem with emf, plus you aren't going to be locked in that single vision the whole game.
It's like you all are expecting everyone to stay in MT the whole game still.
TBH, I rarely used MT in the past. I found the flashlight to be sufficient and even preferred in dark areas. I would just simply scan the spots a spy could hide in close enough proximity for a neck and then expand my search radius. Unfortunately with the Nvidia 8800 series cards (Which I just upgraded to) you don't have a flashlight and I have been reduced to MT whoring. I personally don't even like using MT except when trying to track a spy through smoke or to flick it on quickly as a spy goes around a corner so I can see if he hides right around the corner waiting for a neck. I feel that MT should be utilitarian and situational just like EMF or the spy vision modes and I certainly hope that is how it turns out in PS :-\
Quote from: Overstatement on September 13, 2007, 03:09:45 AM
Is it resolution and screen brightness independent?
If the pallet is done correctly altering the brightness of your monitor won't affect the tonal offset, it should just bump up the brightness of everything evenly making virtually no difference. (Tonal offset, is that the correct term?) Isn't there also a way to clamp contrast?
Kebab, if you made that image any darker it'd be impossible to navigate. It already looks like a dark blob as it is, and people can still see the spies.
If Mr.Mic's method can ensure that you cannot, under any circumstances, see an immobile spy with MT, then you should use it. That is unless you can also come up with a better method to accomplish that.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 13, 2007, 06:11:32 AM
Kebab, if you made that image any darker it'd be impossible to navigate. It already looks like a dark blob as it is, and people can still see the spies.
Yeah, people will also get used to seeing spies under this MT. While it may be difficult seeing a spy on a static snapshot, a moving merc seeing an animated display will have a much easier time picking out blobs out of the environment.
Mic's solution is definitely better.
Depending on the environment, I would have to disagree. The spy is actually easier to spot in a static image than when moving and if there is random noise added to the vision mode it will help to hide the spy even more. I don't care what vision mode you're using, the spy should not be able to stand in the middle of a room and be invisible unless he is using camo. If the spy places himself against a dark backdrop or in a shadow he will be undetectable. One should have to think about his environment when hiding, not just freeze in the middle of the room and be invisible. That takes zero thought and zero skill. As long as the spy doesn't show up when hiding in the shadows like they do in CT he should have no problems hiding whatsoever. The issue one would experience with Mr. Mic's solution would be that there is absolutely no depth to the vision mode making it easy to become disoriented in certain environments. I don't think the goal should be to nerf mt to an almost useless vision mode but rather to tweak it to a more reasonable level. Bear in mind I'm not disagreeing because I am an MT whore or anything of that nature. On the contrary, I don't care for it but I also don't think nerfing the shit out of it is a good idea. It's annoying in CT when someone never leaves MT but it does not make it impossible to win. Making it much much easier for a spy to remain stealthy is really all that is needed to balance the vision. Making a spy completely invisible is a bit to much and not necessary to enable stealthy game play.
Kebab's image looks like what we have now, but darker. If that's the case then there's no reason to bother changing it at all. It would help to see a regular render of what that area of the map would look like, but my first impression is that it's extremely difficult to navigate it and you can still see the spies.
I'm not saying that Mic's vision is perfect -- yes, there does need to be some shadows so that you have depth perception. But his method of using an EMF-type render to make the spies invisible would be the best solution.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 13, 2007, 04:51:28 PM
just freeze in the middle of the room and be invisible. That takes zero thought and zero skill.
Oh right, I didnt think about how people will only be allowed use motion tracking and none of the other useful visions...
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 13, 2007, 05:51:46 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 13, 2007, 04:51:28 PM
just freeze in the middle of the room and be invisible. That takes zero thought and zero skill.
Oh right, I didnt think about how people will only be allowed use motion tracking and none of the other useful visions...
it only counters mt whoring, and good players will always switch visions. you take a serious risk staying in the middle of a room, so it's balanced and adds to the gameplay.
i think the depth is ok, but a little bit more wouln't do any damage.
the only remaining question is in which way camo should affect mt.
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 13, 2007, 05:51:46 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 13, 2007, 04:51:28 PM
just freeze in the middle of the room and be invisible. That takes zero thought and zero skill.
Oh right, I didnt think about how people will only be allowed use motion tracking and none of the other useful visions...
My my aren't we the sarcastic one. You know full well that is not what I'm implying.
But, allow me to further explain...
You are chasing a running spy through an open, well lit room. You have MT on to maintain a lock on your fleeing target. His partner is standing in the open. Just standing in the middle of the room. Completely invisible though he is totally in the open. You run right past him and he grabs you. Now, in alot of maps you could flick on your MT for only a few seconds and it would be long enough for this scenario to play out. You don't think that the Merc should have the chance to recognize even a faint ghost standing in the middle of an open room?
As funny as that might be. You honestly believe it should be that way? Even EMF leaves a slight ghost unless the distance is to great and then the ghost is lost in the noise.
QuoteYou are chasing a running spy through an open, well lit room. You have MT on to maintain a lock on your fleeing target. His partner is standing in the open. Just standing in the middle of the room. Completely invisible though he is totally in the open. You run right past him and he grabs you. Now, in alot of maps you could flick on your MT for only a few seconds and it would be long enough for this scenario to play out. You don't think that the Merc should have the chance to recognize even a faint ghost standing in the middle of an open room?
Firstly, how did he get to the middle of the room without you seeing him? I don't know about you, but if no merc is around I don't tend to just walk into the middle of a room and sit still on the off chance that he's going to pop out with EMF on and not see me.
Secondly, no, the merc shouldn't be able to easily see and identify the stationary spy. You have this thing called a sniper rifle and normal vision: use them.
I am still really against making spy 100% invisible against MT even if he is standing still in the middle of a brightly lit room.
Mt ghosting like EMF is reasonable, along with the bonus that spy cannot possibly be seen in darker corners.
So I dont see how anyone can complain about that being out of balance when most people cannot detect the emf ghost anyways.
with ghosting for some people good at spotting ghosts the only reason to use normal vision is the larger range...
additionally, emf ghosting quality depends on the system afaik
QuoteFirstly, how did he get to the middle of the room without you seeing him? I don't know about you, but if no merc is around I don't tend to just walk into the middle of a room and sit still on the off chance that he's going to pop out with EMF on and not see me.
I am not referring to something pre-planned but simply offering up a scenario where the spy should not be able to just simply stand there invisible in the open if he sees you coming with MT on.
QuoteSecondly, no, the merc shouldn't be able to easily see and identify the stationary spy. You have this thing called a sniper rifle and normal vision: use them.
Not everyone snipes or is going to have a good enough ping to make sniping reliable enough to just stop and start sniping rather than pursue. This vision mode should be suitable for any style of player not just a veteran player who has a 90% chance of sniping a fleeing spy. Depending on the environment and circumstances sniping is not always going to be the best option regardless of your skill level.
Anyhow, I've expressed my opinion and pointed out the potential flaws while doing my best to remain objective and take everything into consideration so as to be able to offer an opinion that takes both experienced and medium to lower skill level players into consideration. I have purposefully avoided creating a mock-up in order to maintain an un-biased opinion on what would be a beneficial change for players of all skill levels. I don't think Kebab's idea is necessarily the best, but I do believe with a few small tweaks it offers the best combination of allowing for stealth on the part of the spy without being retardedly easy for the spy to hide and ease of navigation for the merc along with a reasonable level of detection.
I'm not trying to bash anyone's ideas or say one is superior. They all have flaws and strong points so please, no one get all bent out of shape over it. Our goal is to provide the player with a balanced and fun gaming experience for players of all skill levels. To make a spy completely invisible no matter his surroundings as long as he is stationary might be ok for a veteran player. I could certainly be ok with it as I barely use MT to begin with but more than just the highly skilled players need to be considered here.
this project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.
specialization of vision modes is a good thing, because it rewards thinking and prohibits whoring. there is nothing to discuss about mic's general concept, it's simply the superior solution. maybe some of you don't want to use their brain too much in a game, but i think this is what makes scct a great game.
Quote from: Gawain on September 13, 2007, 09:41:36 PM
this project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.
specialization of vision modes is a good thing, because it rewards thinking and prohibits whoring. there is nothing to discuss about mic's general concept, it's simply the superior solution. maybe some of you don't want to use their brain too much in a game, but i think this is what makes scct a great game.
Uhhh... lol... not to be an asshole man, but you are contradicting yourself. Making the spy invisible except when picked up by the grey box is an absolute no-brainer for spies. Granted it makes the Merc a little more careful but there are 2 teams playing and a balance between the two should be achieved. Anyhow, I'll chime back in when the discussion moves on to another vision mode. I've said all I can say. Oh, one more thing. This is not being created exclusively for vets. It is being created to provide an alternative to Splinter Cell without the bugs and with better balance. To create it with ONLY vets in mind would be utterly suicidal to the project's success as ANY game, much less one with such a small community will develop a stagnant pool of players if fresh blood is not introduced to the community. To do that, you cater to a broader audience. There will still of course be a gap between vets and lower level players but the least we can do is not make that gap even bigger by failing to achieve real balance and just nerfing things to balance it for vets.
it's not a no-brainer for spies. they do the logical counter to mt, and the merc get's problems if he's mt whoring. if the merc is switching visions regularly, the stealthy spy in an open area gets some serious pressure to react, so it will add some tension and prohibits mt whoring for scanning rooms.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 13, 2007, 04:51:28 PM
I don't care what vision mode you're using, the spy should not be able to stand in the middle of a room and be invisible unless he is using camo.
You must really hate EMF then... that's like the complete opposite of what you want :P
Seriously though, from your other posts, you talk like a complete motion whore. If you want to see a spy standing in the middle of a brightly lit room w/o camo on, then how about just turning off MT for a second?
As far as vets versus newbies. Most newbies stick to normal vision anyway, so it won't even be a big deal. If anything it narrows the skill gap a little. I don't think I've seen many newbie MT whores anyway.
QuoteI am not referring to something pre-planned but simply offering up a scenario where the spy should not be able to just simply stand there invisible in the open if he sees you coming with MT on.
The point is that your scenario is bullshit. For it to occur, the spy would have to go into the middle of the room and hang out there until you come walking by. Then he'd have to hope that in that timeframe you don't switch visions at all, and that you actually decide to chase his partner rather than shoot him from far away.
Realistically it just wouldn't happen, since it can happen with a merc using EMF at the moment and I've never been grabbed by someone just waiting for me in the middle of a room (I can't see EMF ghosts unless I'm sniping or actively looking for it).
QuoteIf anything it narrows the skill gap a little. I don't think I've seen many newbie MT whores anyway.
I haven't seen anyone above mediocre that is an MT whore, either.
Quotethis project is adressed to vets respectively experienced players.
Someone doing a balance mod for another game made a statement which I strongly agree with: a well-balanced game is balanced at all levels of play, so long as you are attempting to play optimally. If you need to be ub3r-1337 pr0 to get around MT, then it's too strong.
Quoteadditionally, emf ghosting quality depends on the system monitor calibration afaik
Fixed. Everyone with a basic CRT monitor (and good LCD monitors) can configure their monitors to detect EMF ghosts; as a matter of fact, Mr.Mic wrote a guide for doing just that. The rest is just a matter of having a good eye for it.
the point was that invisibility is too strong for non pro players...
there are a lot mt whores playing way better than mediocre, maybe we got more "lamers" in europe XD
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 13, 2007, 10:21:35 PMYou must really hate EMF then... that's like the complete opposite of what you want :P
Actually, the slight ghosting seen in EMF is exactly what I'm saying should exist. But unlike with EMF, if the ambient occlusion and deeper shadows are present, that slight ghosting will not be as easy to see as it is in EMF. As a matter of fact, in the right areas it will be impossible to see.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 13, 2007, 10:26:35 PM
The point is that your scenario is bullshit. For it to occur, the spy would have to go into the middle of the room and hang out there until you come walking by. Then he'd have to hope that in that timeframe you don't switch visions at all, and that you actually decide to chase his partner rather than shoot him from far away.
The scenario is not meant to realistic. It is merely to illustrate a situation that could take place in many different circumstances and I'm pretty certain whether or not you think I chose a bullshit scenario to illustrate my point, my point was made as you were able to correlate it with the possibility of that same scenario taking place while the merc is in EMF. All I am saying is that for the sake of balance that ghost should exist in MT but it should be more easily "absorbed" by the surroundings. You disagree. That's fine but don't get all bent out of shape and catty because I don't agree with you that a spy should be 100% invisible when stationary.
So about that EMF...? Keeping the slight ghosting? I think we should. Obviously! Bahah! :D
Edit: I have managed to provide multiple reasons why I believe having the spy invisible is not beneficial to balance. The only real reasoning I've seen behind having the spy invisible is that it will force the merc to cycle vision modes which is true, but even a decent player knows that staying in one vision mode can be limiting and cycling through them is better. Rather than go in circles how about providing some sound reasoning on how being 100% invisible when stationary is beneficial to balance?
In order for you to support your point adequately, you need to come up with a plausible in-game scenario where your concern would be affected.
I can say that I think mercs will be underpowered because the spy will shoot him with a rocket launcher. However, the spy can't ever shoot a merc with a rocket launcher, so that argument is void. You get my drift?
A spy is never going to be waiting for a merc in the middle of a lit room, ever. If you think this is going to be an issue, then you need to come up with a plausible example on why it will be.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2007, 01:11:56 AM
In order for you to support your point adequately, you need to come up with a plausible in-game scenario where your concern would be affected.
I can say that I think mercs will be underpowered because the spy will shoot him with a rocket launcher. However, the spy can't ever shoot a merc with a rocket launcher, so that argument is void. You get my drift?
A spy is never going to be waiting for a merc in the middle of a lit room, ever. If you think this is going to be an issue, then you need to come up with a plausible example on why it will be.
Ok. No problem - Museum, you are in the hall outside the elevator spawn, a spy runs through the double doors out towards cafe so you switch to MT so you can see which way he is going as he moves faster and will round the corner out of your LOS. He veers off towards the right dropping smoke imparing your vision so you stay in MT to make sure you can catch him if he doubles back around the corner to take the vent back into the merc spawn area. His partner has just arrived and is standing off to the side of the doors waiting to help. He has stopped for just a moment to asses the situation, he's not moving and you are in MT trying to track the other spy who is running. You exit the doors running right past him because he is completely invisible, he grabs you.
There are many locations where something of this nature could take place. I believe the merc should have small chance of spotting that second spy who is just standing there. Granted he would have to be paying attention but I think a vigilant player should be given that small chance to spot you if you have made no attempt to hide yourself.
If I'm picturing your scenario correctly, that would even work on normal vision.
If you're saying that the spy can hide on the other side of the door where he'd normally hide, then so what? Don't walk around in MT 100% of the time. Nevertheless, I'd imagine that a merc at point blank would be able to see the spy no matter what vision he's using.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2007, 01:32:35 AM
If I'm picturing your scenario correctly, that would even work on normal vision.
If you're saying that the spy can hide on the other side of the door where he'd normally hide, then so what? Don't walk around in MT 100% of the time. Nevertheless, I'd imagine that a merc at point blank would be able to see the spy no matter what vision he's using.
My point is, the spy could be standing out by the pallets of dry wall, making no attempt to hide himself and placing himself in your fov as you exit the doors and if you were in MT he would be invisible. Completely.
You are more interested in arguing than understanding what I am saying and I know of no other way to explain it to you without drawing a picture for you so as I'm sure everyone else can use a little imagination and clearly see what I'm saying. I'm just going to drop it.
Edit: I am more than happy to discuss your point of view but you haven't provided any real reasons on why and how it would be benificial to balance.
I agree with Binary. A stationary spy should be a LITTLE bit visible. Maybe only a black outline, so that when he's in the dark, he's still invisible, while against a bright backdrop or a well-lit area, he's VAGUELY visible.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 14, 2007, 01:28:53 AM
Ok. No problem - Museum, you are in the hall outside the elevator spawn, a spy runs through the double doors out towards cafe so you switch to MT so you can see which way he is going as he moves faster and will round the corner out of your LOS. He veers off towards the right dropping smoke imparing your vision so you stay in MT to make sure you can catch him if he doubles back around the corner to take the vent back into the merc spawn area. His partner has just arrived and is standing off to the side of the doors waiting to help. He has stopped for just a moment to asses the situation, he's not moving and you are in MT trying to track the other spy who is running. You exit the doors running right past him because he is completely invisible, he grabs you.
Sounds like this may just be another skill based trick people will use, and I'm not really against it.
If people get good at fooling MT that way, then good mercs will just have to learn to expect it and adapt their tactics.
Binary,
You must've missed the line where I said "I'd imagine that you'd be able to see a spy from pt. blank no matter what vision you're using."
Still, I don't think detecting a "ghost" in MT should be nearly as easy to do it in EMF because EMF doesn't have a warning when a spy is behind you, and it certainly should not depend on shadows AT ALL. It should only depend on motion. That is it. Once it starts depending on shadows, you're getting into the same shit that we have now, and this discussion becomes pointless. That's not to say that objects in MT shouldn't be shaded; you do need to have depth perception, and the illusion of 3-D gets created in part by shadows. If you are concerned about looking for stationary spies, use normal vision. It exists for a reason.
This topic went far off last couple pages and since it is called "ideas for appearance of visions modes." here are the ideas for visions modes, except our beloved MT:
Thermal vision - make it as close to ct one as possible, it worked really good.
Night vision - make it pt like, gets blurry, when you look far and have static noise.
EMF - keep it as it is except ghost shouldn't be seen through ceiling. Cause sitting in the middle of inside cafe ceiling not moving and not using any visions and getting hs'ed by a merc who just randomly entered the room and flipped emf on, seems a little wrong.
Thats all. Discuss.
I agree with kronf.
I also agree with spekkio. Binary I understand your scenario, however, a merc chasing a spy would also probably have lazer on just in case. One sweep of the lazer and bam you find the standing spy in the middle of the room.
I think a spy who is motionless should not show up. A spy moving should. There for we need levels of appearance like Mr.Mic suggested with the fades.
running, rolling, jumping, falling, = warning sounds, full colour, full view
walking, crouch at normal speed, climbing = warning sounds, half colour or visible
crouch at slow speed = ghost
not moving = invisible.
adding cloak raises the lowers the visibilty. So with cloak:
running, rolling, jumping, falling, = warning sounds, full colour, full view
walking, crouch at normal speed, climbing = ghost
crouch at slow speed = invisible
not moving = invisible
When I first bought the game I thought MT was going to be like exactly that. So if I didn't move, i won't be seen. Because that's what the name implies. Of course as soon as I found out that wasn't the case, of course, LAME was the first word i said. Right after " OGM!! WTF!! How did you see me?!" I still say that, to EMF ghosting bastards and MT whores has changed it a little "WTF!! I guess the corner wasn't dark enough!"
I think the balance would be just fine with the invisibilty. Here's an example of Binary's scenario now.
I burst out from Monolith and head to cafe. Binary coming from Exhibition sees me making a break for the doors. I get through the doors and throw smoke and run towards the outside cafe hack. Running by Spekkio who's on his way to exhibition. Quick thinking Spekkio cloaks. Binary in MT is running after me and tracks me using the box. Binary blindly chasses after me, completely ignoring Spekkio who's cloaked standing in the middle of the room. Spekkio, after shitting his pants when Binary runs by, grabs Binary and breaks his neck.
Again, this could have been prevented by 1. using your lazer or 2. switching visions. The risk is too high and not usually worth it.
This is why i think a spy should be invisible in MT when not moving and a spy should be completely cloaked invisible when not moving as well.
A lot of people don't like the sound of cloaking. If we keep it, it would balance the invisibilty factor.
Now then, I was hoping to discuss an Xray vision for spies instead of heat vision. It'd be similar but a refreshing change in visiuals.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2007, 02:07:24 AM
If you are concerned about looking for stationary spies, use normal vision. It exists for a reason.
Yup. If spies are abusing a merc by just standing still in well lit areas and then grabbing them, then they're too reliant on MT.
Sitting in a well lit area is risky. You're gambling the guy is going to have MT on. If he doesn't you're SoL. I'm not going to cry tears for mercs who get waylaid by this tactic because they were too lazy to ever turn off MT.
Aren't you guys just proving Binary's point by saying MT is weak?
I thought (based on observations, not the designer's intentions) MT's main use is to increase situational awareness coverage (360 detection) at the cost of reduced awareness of your 45 degree FOV (on normal postrender). If you can't do that while moving because spies are easily invisible, what's the point?
Aggro (and lots of other people) teams will bring chaff to counter MT when aggroing. And to quote Spekkio again:
Quote from: Spekkio on September 06, 2007, 04:48:29 PM
I can see spies moving in front of my face just fine, thankyouverymuch.
This thread has become a real disapointment. Instead of people posting creative ideas it has devolved to a skill of debate. Instead of new ideas, we get criticisms. Instead of posting visual examples from other games for a new look, more often people are saying what they dont like of the only 2 suggestions we have.
Basically, in typical forum fashion, it has become an of example of bitching about somebodies idea not matching what you want instead introducing a new idea or solution.
Frankly, this is why a most game developers dont bother listening to the needs of the gamers. In a democratic decision process, it is to be expected that decisions cannot be made because of so many contrasting opinions.
You can save that process for the next presidential election. I am going to keep future decisions to the dev forums.
I made a view.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 07, 2007, 09:09:05 PM
Anyway, my idea...
Quote from: Overstatement on May 11, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
And if the need be, to solve the nightvision problem, we could incorperate the distance of stuff from the merc into the shader. Blend stuff of like distances and contrast stuff of unlike distances. So a spy next to a wall will be blended together while a spy out in the corridor will contrast with the wall that's far away.
Quote from: Overstatement on May 27, 2007, 10:51:56 PM
things I want to put out there is the change in MT where we use the distance of the surfaces from the player in the calcuations. So that surfaces that are close together appear blended (regardless of lighting) and surfaces that are far part are contrasted.
And Mr.Mic provided a rough idea of how it would look (Thanks!)
Quote from: MR.Mic on September 07, 2007, 11:08:43 PM
I did a mock up of what I imagine your version of MT would look like.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg184.imageshack.us%2Fimg184%2F9339%2Fover2ko8.png&hash=5295ba76fa828b901c60536ba982355a868594fa)
The spies are circled for ease of viewing.
But most of us don't have 3d software to visualize stuff like this.
Besides, you ordered us to:
Quote from: goodkebab on September 07, 2007, 10:29:31 AM
Post your idea and prepare to get flamed.
The way it's going to look is determined by the way it's going to work. It has to work, so the debate is exactly about wheter or not some idea is viable. You just can't escape this, regardless of where some certain lot of people are getting their own points across.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 14, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
Aren't you guys just proving Binary's point by saying MT is weak?
It's not weak, because ultimately, you're going to have to move to get where you're going.
Unless wasting 4 minutes in the same spot seems like a good idea (provided that the merc never switches away from MT in that time).
it would be clever (if not necessary) to make someone skilled (especially in stealth) responsible for balance questions. most people on the dev team are clearly unqualified for this. good players who come to my mind are spekkio, mr. mic, kronf, seefoo (random order, i'm not humblegay). i think this is really important. discuss...
edit: moved to new thread
Quote from: goodkebab on September 14, 2007, 12:28:44 PM
This thread has become a real disapointment. Instead of people posting creative ideas it has devolved to a skill of debate. Instead of new ideas, we get criticisms. Instead of posting visual examples from other games for a new look, more often people are saying what they dont like of the only 2 suggestions we have.
Basically, in typical forum fashion, it has become an of example of bitching about somebodies idea not matching what you want instead introducing a new idea or solution.
Frankly, this is why a most game developers dont bother listening to the needs of the gamers. In a democratic decision process, it is to be expected that decisions cannot be made because of so many contrasting opinions.
You can save that process for the next presidential election. I am going to keep future decisions to the dev forums.
im only here to offer opinions on things. I can't make any pictures and shit like the other guys. It's apparent that the motion tracking isn't going to stray far from the MT of Chaos Theory in terms of looks. It isn't wise to bring in a new look because well, look at how DA's MT was. No one liked it. So the 2 examples are the only things I have to base my opinions on. Daybreak had the best though process about the MT and how to go about it. You probably don't listen to some of us anyways, so do what you gotta do to make this game a success. At the same time, now you can't ask us questions and you might as well shut down the forums if you are just leaving decisions to your "dev team"
affirmative.
if you want me to state my view again: do it mr.mic's way, with a red hexagonal pattern and static distortion so that it looks similar to ct, and give camo the influence daybreak summed up.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 14, 2007, 12:28:44 PM
This thread has become a real disapointment. Instead of people posting creative ideas it has devolved to a skill of debate. Instead of new ideas, we get criticisms. Instead of posting visual examples from other games for a new look, more often people are saying what they dont like of the only 2 suggestions we have.
Basically, in typical forum fashion, it has become an of example of bitching about somebodies idea not matching what you want instead introducing a new idea or solution.
Frankly, this is why a most game developers dont bother listening to the needs of the gamers. In a democratic decision process, it is to be expected that decisions cannot be made because of so many contrasting opinions.
You can save that process for the next presidential election. I am going to keep future decisions to the dev forums.
Kebab, it sounds like this thread is a complete disappointment because no one likes your idea of MT. I'm sorry, but the few people who are able to make full-screen graphics shots of what we envision MT to look like are actually on the dev team. The only thing the rest of us can offer is comments and criticisms. It's up to you, Mr.Mic, and whoever else can do renders to take those comments and criticisms as you see fit and edit your rendition of MT until we have something that is satisfactory.
Personally, I said years ago on the Ubi.com forum (go try to search for it if you like) that if MT worked similar to EMF, it would help balance the game out a ton. Therefore, I believe Mr.Mic is on the right track with his idea. I can't really offer my own idea because his and my idea for MT overlap. Sure it can be drastically improved to look better than Virtual Boy game, but he said that his idea was just a rough sketch. I don't think Binary has a valid concern -- he is worried that a merc might walk by a spy in the middle of the room when the two spies are working together. Shouldn't teamwork be rewarded? Isn't that part of the point of the game? The fact that you can bait a merc by your partner in MT in more places than you can in CT isn't a bad thing. Furthermore, like Daybreak said a simple use of the laser would make the spy pop up anyway.
Kebab, I'm sorry but you're way too hung up on the "cool" factor without thinking of practicality. Your rendition of MT is exactly what we have if the MT "fix" is enabled. You speak of making it darker when you can barely see the map's geometry as it is in that picture. While it helps a little, in the long run it still has most of the problems that MT has now, so you might as well just slap CT's MT on the game and call it a day.
As for the other visions:
-EMF: Get rid of the ghost. It's counter-intuitive. Most of the times when I'm called a "cheater" is by shooting people through walls with this vision and they're not using any equipment
-NV: I like the gray overtones rather than CT's green overtones. The blurriness is optional; I don't think it makes much of a difference. With regards to the ambient noise: if you're going to add ambient noise to NV, you need to add it to Thermal for consistency. Else just leave them out.
-Thermal: This is the only other vision that's affected by post-render quality, and I think this should be foreced to "normal" quality as well.
Even if you made no other changes to the other visions, the game would be fine. It's just that the incentive to use MT is too great compared to all the rest.
There are quite a few other games out there that you guys have played that use cool visions. Why not post those? And to great graphics, all you need is an ingame screen shot of CT and photoediting software. There are a few guys on this forum that have those skills.
I am not at all taking this personal, the only reason I posted my idea was because I thought the direction this was taking needed more sophistication. My disappointment is the flaming going on gets people no where.
The depth map approach is exactly how the Spy Thermal Vision is achieved, giving the MT vision the same effect with Red lacks visual contrast with that of the spys vision. It will just look the same but a different color. As a player, you lose the strong contrast between the 2 characters. Merc and Spy are designed as polar opposites, and conceptually and visually we have to keep that.
If the argument is really about balance, and the majority really want the spy to be 100% invisible thats fine, they can argue that for the sake of balance. I am not contrasting that opinion at all. If it works in playtesting and everyone is happy with it thats great.
The percentage of how invisible the spy is can be tweaked with playtesting, and is really a simple matter of changing a few numbers.
My argument is that we can achieve what you guys want, use the depth map approuch suggested by Mic, and include a light/shadow effect that I am suggesting.
What I am trying to say is, my suggestion is to keep a high standard of quality, which does not actually compromise balance. They are pretty much 2 seperate topics. 1. How visible is the spy in MT (balance) 2. What does Mt look like. (artistic)
Quote
My argument is that we can achieve what you guys want, use the depth map approuch suggested by Mic, and include a light/shadow effect that I am suggesting.
So then post a picture of it?
I have played other games, and CT's visions are quite unique compared to other stuff. If I see something to compare it to, I will let you guys know. A "Predator" like MT wouldn't work because when the Predator uses his visions, he can barely see his environment.
Adding to Spekkio's grey NV: what about using some form of depth-of-field or whatever to blur things further away?
Single player sees a lot of these kind of effects...
You know, from what i know of hard core gamers is that they are less interested in graphics then performance. They dont want effects distracting them.
I personally like having these subtle effects because I think it feels immersive.
Things like the outline of the visor being visible for the mercs, and the hud should look like its projected onto the glass of the visor would really be a cool effect.
thank god goodkebap settled the confusion.
i agree with spekkio on almost all points, there's nothing more to add (luckily some1 that has a clue isn't too lazy to write long arguments everyone can follow).
i also prefer a grey nv.
what i don't agree with is normal post render for the spy visions. what the heck is it good for? spies are meant to be better at information gathering than mercs, and it makes better contrast in the way it feels to play as a spy or merc.
i'm really unsure about emf ghosting. probably kronf is right, seeing ghost through the ceiling shoudl be abolished. though i think it should be possible in zoom mode ???
Thermal is the spy's MT vision. There isn't much incentive to turn it off, with the exception of being on ceilings and hiding from EMF. Then again, you get seen there anyway. No one complains about it, though, because mercs win more games than spies.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 14, 2007, 09:55:39 PM
Thermal is the spy's MT vision. There isn't much incentive to turn it off, with the exception of being on ceilings and hiding from EMF. Then again, you get seen there anyway. No one complains about it, though, because mercs win more games than spies.
Well, the EMF thing is really enough to balance thermal IMO.
Unlike the merc, the spy really can have a god vision and we're okay with it, because spies are supposed to have better recon than mercs. The fact that it makes you more visible (if the merc is using EMF), is really enough of a balancing factor. Sacrifice stealth for recon.
Unlike mercs, spies have four tasks they need to accomplish:
-Remain off EMF
-See mercs well
-Detect mines and spytraps
-See in the dark
Sometimes I do wonder if it'd be okay to allow regular spy NV to work without triggering EMF, just to make NV somewhat more useful.
We could always make another vision instead of spy NV to spot mines/lasers instead of thermal, but I think that's overkill. Spy visions just don't have to be nearly as balanced as the merc ones. There's certainly a penalty for running around in Thermal all day long, and there's a penalty for not using thermal at all. As far as spy NV, we could probably just take it out of the game and nobody would care. I rarely see people ever use it.
maybe if only thermal gets normal post render quality nv would be used more, but i think that there's no need to change anything with the spy visions (except cooler look with gray nv).
BTW, never say something is "gay" on the ubi forum. They will IP ban you. ::)
This is not Ubi. Doesn't mean there aren't unwritten rules. Just use common sense.
I suggested this a long time ago, but I would like the Nightvision to be able to see the field of view of the cameras because the cameras also use Nightvision.
This is a serious balance issue, but what about camo making spies invisible to cameras?
Quote from: goodkebab on September 15, 2007, 11:15:34 AM
I suggested this a long time ago, but I would like the Nightvision to be able to see the field of view of the cameras because the cameras also use Nightvision.
This is a serious balance issue, but what about camo making spies invisible to cameras?
seing the exact detection cone of camers in nv would be a good thing.
i also advocate camoed spies invisible to cams. sure, it takes less skill (timing etc) to get by cams, but with camo getting this boost (+faster movement against mt), stealth get's a little bit faster.
what i'm really unsure about is the silent crouch-roll-crouch though...
Quote from: goodkebab on September 15, 2007, 11:15:34 AM
This is a serious balance issue, but what about camo making spies invisible to cameras?
I always thought that made sense, and I don't feel like it would be a huge balance problem either. Cameras are fairly unreliable anyway, and it'd make more people take camo.
what makes more sense, is just giving cameras a shoddy picture, making it harder to see camo
Didn't you suggest this before and Spekkio brought up the Steam/Jacuzzi hacks?
Quote from: Bionic-Blob on September 15, 2007, 03:25:14 PM
what makes more sense, is just giving cameras a shoddy picture, making it harder to see camo
we're speaking about security cams, not about camnet...
anyway it's off topic so let's stop it or move it to the right thread.
QuoteThis is a serious balance issue, but what about camo making spies invisible to cameras?
Definitely not.
Camo in relation to cameras belongs in an entirely different thread. Restrict your discussion to the topic at hand please.
damnit, hijacking my own thread....oops.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 15, 2007, 10:59:22 PM
damnit, hijacking my own thread....oops.
Thanks to you, we are now two topics off. So should we talk about visions or how disappointing this thread is? ???
this thread is soooooooooooo disappointing
- wait it isn't: we have a reasonable visualization how mt should be done.
HIGH 5!!! 8)
Quotewhat i don't agree with is normal post render for the spy visions. what the heck is it good for? spies are meant to be better at information gathering than mercs, and it makes better contrast in the way it feels to play as a spy or merc.
You people make up some crazy ideas sometimes. Camnet, spy traps, sound reticle, EMF, MT, laser, flashlight, passive map defenses are all geared towards "information gathering" so that you can hunt and kill spies. How do you extrapolate from all that that mercs aren't supposed to be good at information gathering?
Quote from: Spekkio on September 17, 2007, 01:43:46 AM
You people make up some crazy ideas sometimes. Camnet, spy traps, sound reticle, EMF, MT, laser, flashlight, passive map defenses are all geared towards "information gathering" so that you can hunt and kill spies. How do you extrapolate from all that that mercs aren't supposed to be good at information gathering?
Well, basically spies have an information advantage over mercs. They're supposed to know merc positions better than mercs know spy positions. I mean, we allow spies to have the heartbeat sensor that tells them exactly where a merc is (and works through walls no less).
Thus trying to make spy visions less clear isn't even that big a deal. Nobody particularly cares if a spy can have full resolution and see everything. It doesn't affect balance very profoundly because mercs don't play stealth.
Visibility is only a big concern for the merc.
Spies aren't supposed to unconditionally know the merc's position. If I always knew where the mercs were 100% of the time as spy, and insta-frags/funny punches/lag charges were taken out of the game, I'd never die.
Also, there are quite a few times where I've snuck up on spies as merc.
Point being that both sides have to use recon to stay one step ahead of their opponents. They accomplish this differently, and you could argue that spies have better recon through 3rd person view. However, how strong spy recon is definitely does make a difference in gameplay, and shouldn't be ignored.
If you have to know where the merc is at all times and unconditionally, then why not just make the torch light non toggle able. 8) JK of course. Mercs should be able to somewhat hide from spies, if they couldn't then spies would never have to face them face to face.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 17, 2007, 04:16:25 AM
Point being that both sides have to use recon to stay one step ahead of their opponents. They accomplish this differently, and you could argue that spies have better recon through 3rd person view. However, how strong spy recon is definitely does make a difference in gameplay, and shouldn't be ignored.
Well yeah, but the spies recon is stronger. Generally it's alright if the spy can see a merc that happens to be in his field of view. We don't worry about mercs hiding in shadows or what not.
In fact, we even give spies abilities like spy bullets and heartbeat to sense mercs he can't directly see.
I'm not saying that we should have spies always know 100% where the merc is. I'm just saying that something like normal post render for spy visions isn't even necessary because most of the time we don't care.
In fact, I like high quality spy visions just because sometimes you need them to detect hidden mines, like when you put a mine on a lamp or something else that already shows up on thermal. As far as detecting the merc, you'll probably see him anyway. If people want to nerf spy vision for whatever reason, it'd be by putting on a max visual range, not by reducing the render quality. Not that I even think spy visions are a problem though.
i say no to worse spy visions. glowing like a christmas tree in emf is enough of a disadvantage.
there should be some reasons to use nv though. i like the visible security cam cones idea for that purpose. maybe some form of advanced hearing? are there any other ideas of boosting nv?
So Apparently, it's really hard to find a picture of Metroid Prime's X-ray visions, which I was going to use to help explain the vision for spies.
The vision would be purple, like in Prime, and would see the skeleton of Mercs, lazers, mines and maybe even hidden activations for the maps, in a bright red and orange. I was also thinking that instead of all the stuff on the HUD and how we could reduce it. I was thinking rather than the objectives have the box around it indicating how far the objective is, it would show up through x-ray. Thus making the spy having to do a little recon. This might seem a little pointless since the objectives don't move, but IF they did, then it would be a useful vision.
You might say that the x-ray vision going through walls would be too much like a HB sensor. You may be right, but then the vision could be limited just the way Thermal works, except still be able to see the objectives.
I think being able to locate buttons or things in the map would be a fun thing to have. I also like the fact that the spy might have to do a little recon before might also be a cool adition. Ofcourse, with all new visions, it'd have to be play tested.
Another vision, stolen directly from Prime would be something like sound vision or Echo Vision. The ability to see mines beeping, spy traps humming and the objectives maybe even mercs moving or shooting. Though EAX kind of already does that, maybe we won't have EAX for Versus. The vision, could also work for you, by having a meter or something that displays when you make too much noise, and will show up on the Mercs reticule.
Just a couple of ideas. I can't really think of other visions that might be useful.
maybe nv should work as some form of sound amplification / tracking. atm there's no need to use nv at all, and i'm against nerfing tv.
What about replacing NV with NV+infrared cones from cameras + easily spotting mines/spytraps?
A lot of potential their Daybreak, we really need to try and make this game much more different in appearance. MT should look different, EMF as well....Thermal should have different effects.
etc etc.
Thermal could be an all red vision, but hot/warm things like mercs or lasers show up in all white. Infrared.
Night vision could stay since it is pretty standard in any game really, with the same look it has now.
I really like the ambient occlusion looked for motion tracker, that would look sweet and it would be much different.
I just got two friend coupons from my brother in Corruption this will let me take screen shots. I'll see if i can get some screen shots of the x-vision and such.
There is really nothing wrong with NV or thermal. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I think that Echo Vision has good potential as a replacement for NV if it brightens things up enough to see as easilly as NV does. Add in distortions around mines and spy traps that are only rendered in the vision mode so when it's on you can SEE a distortion wave emitting from around a corner where a mine is. Shouldn't change things much as most of the time you see or hear them anyways; would just look damn cool and provide useful at times I'm sure. Lasers emit low level freq don't they? If so then the laser beam on a laser mine could produce a linear distortion with a small distortion emission along it's length and circumference. Minor enough to retain the beam shape of the laser.
Why do we need NV/"echo vision" to do the same thing that thermal does? Equipment function overlap should be kept to a minimum. That's why no one uses flares -- their function overlaps with inherent functions on the merc, so there's no point to wasting a gadget slot on them.
seeing lasers in nv is stupid. the only way of boosting nv is nerfing tv range (which sucks) or giving nv some new abilities.
Quote from: Gawain on September 24, 2007, 05:40:17 PM
seeing lasers in nv is stupid. the only way of boosting nv is nerfing tv range (which sucks) or giving nv some new abilities.
If thermal were replaced by Xray you could have lasers invisible in Xray. No real balance issue there.
How about spy vision which allows you to constantly see from the point of view of your mate (fpp)
That's original.
Would affect balance, but it'd probably fix the non-mic-using partner and you'll be vulnerable. Interesting.
I really like the echo vision added to NV as a cool factor.
And how about this, if you want to do team chat, you look into your opsat and see your partners view in
a small window. This would be the new team chat, and mercs would have a varient of it as well. -kind like players text messaging.
i really like the echo thing with proxis around corners
Quote from: Gawain on September 25, 2007, 01:34:22 PM
i really like the echo thing with proxis around corners
Nah, i prefer to rely on hearing instead of spamming the display with info about pretty much everything.
u consider this as spam? lol
Yes, it's just too much on the display.
KokA....spies do not have a hud at all, so I totally disagree with to much information.
Also, sound lags and silent proxies are the biggest annoyance of the game.
hey, i hate that i can see lasers with thermal vision, that's just too much information on my screen, waaaaaah ;D
Quote from: Gawain on September 25, 2007, 01:34:22 PM
i really like the echo thing with proxis around corners
Yeah that would be a cool addition for NV.
For people who dislike the "spam"... they can umm... just not use NV. It's not like people use it a lot now anyway.
Quote from: goodkebab on September 25, 2007, 02:45:20 PM
KokA....spies do not have a hud at all, so I totally disagree with to much information.
Also, sound lags and silent proxies are the biggest annoyance of the game.
Which I think you need to get rid of through QA testing. I personally like the dynamic that Proxies are found through hearing, but are hard to see, while lasers are easy to see but don't make any noise.
They do make a noise - every 10 or 15 seconds, but they do.
If an X-ray type vision showed through walls the way a thermal system does, mines could be located visually and if the light amp vision had echo properties you could discern the type of mine. We could also easily make the sound wave disturbances culled by a wall and small enough that if a proxy is placed far enough away from a doorway (or whatever) it will remain hidden except to Xray in which you will be unable to see a laser or indication that it is a proxy.
This will retain the sound differential unless the mine is placed carelessly by the Defender making the echos visible. This would promote more usage of visions and force more careful recon. This should provide a unique system for locating countermeasures. For the Defender this will provide further usefulness to EMF causing them to make more frequent use of visions.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on September 25, 2007, 09:30:11 PM
They do make a noise - every 10 or 15 seconds, but they do.
If you're referring to silent mines, sometimes they don't. I've sat in front of several for far longer than that and they never made a peep. I've also seen laser mines without a laser showing in thermal ???
Those suck... you go to remove them and you get in front of it and BOOM! :o
We could just make the teamate FOV part of the camera network system. So if they want to see what their partner sees they have to take that gadget.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 25, 2007, 09:45:35 PM
This will retain the sound differential unless the mine is placed carelessly by the Defender making the echos visible.
No, I don't like this. Because people can't see if they're being careless or not. The only way you'll even know is if you test the mine with a partner (since only spies can see these sound waves).
The more I think of it, the more I tend to think this vision is a bad idea.
We're better off just relying on the old system of detecting mines, just get rid of the silent mine bug. Hopefully with UT's sound system, we won't have to worry about that anyway.
If we really need help we could always make a "mine detector" gadget that works similar to the heartbeat sensor, but pings mines on your radar instead of mercs.
Just a note the Echo vision would have to be re-named 'cause apparently it's the exact name as in Metroid.
I'm not sure what everyone is talking about but I'm against a vision that makes mines easier to find. They're already too damn easy to find even without EAX.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 25, 2007, 10:01:12 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 25, 2007, 09:45:35 PM
This will retain the sound differential unless the mine is placed carelessly by the Defender making the echos visible.
No, I don't like this. Because people can't see if they're being careless or not. The only way you'll even know is if you test the mine with a partner (since only spies can see these sound waves).
The more I think of it, the more I tend to think this vision is a bad idea.
We're better off just relying on the old system of detecting mines, just get rid of the silent mine bug. Hopefully with UT's sound system, we won't have to worry about that anyway.
If we really need help we could always make a "mine detector" gadget that works similar to the heartbeat sensor, but pings mines on your radar instead of mercs.
A laser has to pass over an opening for you to trigger it so you will be able to see it in the Sound Vision. In xray you would no doubt be able to tell what direction it is facing and its placement should indicate the type most of the time. It essentially makes it no easier and no more difficult to locate and avoid mines. What it does do is makes sure you are making use of all your vision modes giving true usefulness to each in its own respect.
Quote from: Overstatement on September 25, 2007, 10:06:39 PM
I'm not sure what everyone is talking about but I'm against a vision that makes mines easier to find. They're already too damn easy to find even without EAX.
QFT.
Seriously, as long as you're being careful mines are relatively easy to locate. The only problems that arise from mine removal are acoustics, both from a silent mine perspective, and hearing proxies from another floor/room perspective. Just fix the acoustics.
so true.
a good player can already find the mines using the equipment they are given so adding more equipment probably ins't necessary. the problem comes in when you can't hear the mines that are supposed to be beeping. laser mines are pretty easy to see if you just look for them
It's a simple case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Changing the appearance of the visions is one thing, but their function should be the same. I highly doubt Ubisoft has copyrighted "thermal" and "night vision." Just do your own artistic rendering of what those should look like (which, incidentally, is the point of this thread. Not to brainstorm about completely alternative vision modes).
Quote from: element54 on September 25, 2007, 09:54:20 PM
We could just make the teamate FOV part of the camera network system. So if they want to see what their partner sees they have to take that gadget.
good idea.
any pleas against visible cam cones in nv?
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 11:10:04 PM
It's a simple case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Changing the appearance of the visions is one thing, but their function should be the same. I highly doubt Ubisoft has copyrighted "thermal" and "night vision." Just do your own artistic rendering of what those should look like (which, incidentally, is the point of this thread. Not to brainstorm about completely alternative vision modes).
Seriously... Go play CT if that's what you want. There WILL be things that you are obviously not going to like. Instead of fighting to copy an existing game (Not going to happen), give us feedback on making this our own. Dig outside the realm of your S.A.M. experience and help to incorporate new and better ideas.
Quote
Seriously... Go play CT if that's what you want.
Seriously, don't fucking touch the shit that works. Quit the bad attitude, too. I don't even know why you're on the team with this attitude: kebab has stated multiple times that the goal of the project is to produce a true sequel to the SvM that we all know and love. Incorporating echo vision and xray vision for spies is deviating dramatically from that, especially when it's done just for the sake of being different.
How about if you want a dramtically different experience, go play double agent. Your philosophy towards this project is going to be what happens when video game movies are made: some shitty director suddenly gets all creativity happy and produces a POS because he's a talentless loser.
Putting in all these lame ideas is just going to produce another Double Agent. I don't want that, and no one else here does, either.
*ahum* *couch* *clears throat*
Quote from: Spekkio on September 25, 2007, 11:54:06 PM
Quote
Seriously... Go play CT if that's what you want.
Seriously, don't fucking touch the shit that works. Quit the bad attitude, too. I don't even know why you're on the team with this attitude: kebab has stated multiple times that the goal of the project is to produce a true sequel to the SvM that we all know and love. Incorporating echo vision and xray vision for spies is deviating dramatically from that.
How about if you want a dramtically different experience, go play double agent.
1. If I had a bad attitude I would have been removed from the team. People would have an issue with me. None of that is the case.
2. YOU are the one who has a problem with me as I am the most vocal in disagreeing with you and you don't like it. As you are a very vocal member of the forums I have tried time and time again to point out that we don't have a choice. Things will have to be different.
3. It does not mean that the goal of capturing the style of game play has changed. It means we have to be creative in how we do it.
4. I am not trying to change the feel that you would like to retain and nothing that I am proposing is anything but brainstorming. It is not decided, it is nothing but an idea.
5. You have a problem with my ideas, state your reasons instead of saying "if it isn't broke don't fix it" over and over again. Otherwise, don't reply.
6. I'm human and I get pissy sometimes but I do a pretty goddamn good job of remaining respectful to those I disagree with. I expect the same in return.
Your quips of "go play CT then" are both derogatory and insulting. You have had a bad attitude towards me in your last 3-5 posts or so. Not towards my ideas, but towards me. Rather than adding any meaningful argument, you just say "go play CT then." Fuck off.
I do not want an exact clone of CT. Go back and read the changelog I posted a while ago. I want you, the developer teams, to take the best of CT, PT, and DA and make a great game. I do not want you to include stupid shit like X-Ray vision, Echo Vision, or Night Vision that doubles as an uber proxy detector just because people think that it might be cool. You know what I think is cool? Spies with rocket launchers. But that would completely change the game, now wouldn't it? Oh, and learn the difference between an argument and reasoning. The fact that the current spy visions work well is the reason I oppose incorporating shit from Metroid into the game. Not only that, but when playing as a spy you're supposed to feel like, oh I don't know, a spy maybe? Not some futeristic bounty hunter who likes to flash you if you beat the game in less than 2 hours.
You want reasonable suggestions? Go read the stuff I've been posted lately. The best way to expand and improve this game is going to be through level design, more intuitive controls of your characters, and new gadget implementation. It is certainly not going to be done by revamping visions entirely, giving spies some completely outlandish bullshit acrobatics, or completely overhauling everything in PT/CT. That is exactly what Double Agent did, and nobody likes the game. Don't believe me? Go login right now and tell me how many players are in the lobby. You need to add to what PT/CT has without subtracting much, if anything at all.
You want gadget ideas? I just posted in another thread a way to incorporate phospho grenades in a useful manner. You can add the grappling hook as a gadget for mercs, in addition to a medpack that allows you to heal your partner/remove spy traps on two occassions combined, which both teams would have access to. This in return for removing health regen (which I think is bogus). I think a cool way of making sure that equipment isn't imbalanced when you start expanding it is to have 5 slots in a group of 3 and 2; the 3 slots would be "kill" equipment for mercs (frags, phospho, mines, tazer, for example) and "harassment" equipment for spies (all 3 nades, sticky cams). The other two slots would be for recon/passive equipment -- stuff like spy traps, mask, hb sensor, snares, camo, etc. This would have the added benefit of not having to balance the game around someone taking triple nade + cams + bullet/hb sensor and going balls-to-wall aggro without penalty on you. Make it so that if you wish, you can have 3 slots for recon and 2 for kill/aggro stuff if you desire, so that the equipment is more accomodating to your playstyle.
The point is that there is a lot of new stuff you can do to the game without going nuts on outlandish ideas that, quite frankly, suck.
Off the top of my head, I can think of other simple, yet useful ideas for equipment without going futuristic nuts:
Mercs:
-Sabotage sensor: makes the bomb location show up on the merc hud
-boobytrap objective: allows the merc to set a trap on objectives that will blow if the spy goes to neutralize it without checking for it. Don't ask me how the spies would defuse this device, I'm just throwing out ideas here
Spies:
-EMP jammer: let's spies silently disarm passive defenses and shut out lights
I just came up with that in like 10 seconds. It's not hard as long as you try to keep it simple and think about what would be useful in the context of SvM, not some shit that would be awesome just because you thought of it.
I am not going to bothere reading rants, but we do have to seriously change the names and visual appearance of all gadgets.
That means EMF cannot be blue, MT cannot be red....and Thermal needs a different shader.
Its not about being broken, its about being able to make it in the first place.
nope, thermal does not need a different shader. it's not an idea of ubisoft, it's the same color scheme thermal pictures are usually overlayed with.
spekkio's post pwns binary's one. (i don't know why guy brazil and binary have to bitch with me and now starting to do so with spekkio)
i don't like most gadget suggestions. what i think is good for the gameplay is the gadget slot system as there are 70 possible combinations, with one more gadget it would be 126; this is really impossible to balance out. instant healing/unpoisoning/untrapping your partner is too strong (as you already have many other advantages of being together like aggro 2on1, coop move, etc), so i'd go for an extra gadget here, too.
You don't have to like my ideas (XRay and Echo weren't even mine) but you do need to be open to discussion, that is what these forums are for. If you feel I've somehow been asshole to you... Don't know what to tell you. Ideas are conceptualized, people discuss them, discard the elements they deem inappropriate and incorporate what works. It is not your place to tell people they have stupid ideas. You are free to disagree and explain your point of view of course. If you don't think I'm fit to be on this Dev team you are entitled to that opinion. Don't respond to my posts if you don't like them. If you do respond, respond in a constructive manner. I will do likewise. I know you're not a child and neither am I so shall we start behaving like adults?
Edit: I've read your other posts by the way. I didn't think the ideas were half bad and could think of no good reasons not to incorporate them if we choose. Thus you do not see posts in those threads in regards to them.
Wow.
I wonder what other things I can post to get a heated discusion.
What a bout a merc holomine, it's a mine that's placed on the ground that displays a merc looking at camnet. But doesn't show up in thermal view. like a decoy.
Now fight!
I spend 80% of my vision time in thermal.
Quote from: Gawain on September 26, 2007, 02:04:24 PM
nope, thermal does not need a different shader. it's not an idea of ubisoft, it's the same color scheme thermal pictures are usually overlayed with.
spekkio's post pwns binary's one. (i don't know why guy brazil and binary have to bitch with me and now starting to do so with spekkio)
i don't like most gadget suggestions. what i think is good for the gameplay is the gadget slot system as there are 70 possible combinations, with one more gadget it would be 126; this is really impossible to balance out. instant healing/unpoisoning/untrapping your partner is too strong (as you already have many other advantages of being together like aggro 2on1, coop move, etc), so i'd go for an extra gadget here, too.
As it has already been stated, yes the shader might be changed simply to create a bigger difference between this mod and it's inspiration. That doesn't mean the function has to change, just the look.
Some people may not like this (to a degree even *I* don't) but unfortunately some things will have to be changed a little and we don't have a choice. Understand that just because alternatives are being discussed does not mean those ideas are being implemented. The more ideas we see, the better. Some may be less than desirable but that does not mean there are not aspects of an idea that could be used. That being the case, no idea is a truly stupid idea.
Some may be unusable for this mod, that certainly doesn't make them stupid. I.E. The linked visions between players - neat idea in its own right but probably a balance issue could arise from implementation of this idea. Communicating is part of what makes a good team. If that aspect of the gameplay were changed it really could move things away from the style of game play we all love.
FYI - At the moment nothing is being done except to build up a pool of ideas and THEN decide how much and what will be different.
Quote from: Daybreak on September 26, 2007, 03:33:09 PM
Wow.
I wonder what other things I can post to get a heated discusion.
What a bout a merc holomine, it's a mine that's placed on the ground that displays a merc looking at camnet. But doesn't show up in thermal view. like a decoy.
Now fight!
That would be quite funny to see actually ;D
Sneak sneak... BOOM! Woops... :o
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 26, 2007, 03:43:18 PM
Quote from: Daybreak on September 26, 2007, 03:33:09 PM
Wow.
I wonder what other things I can post to get a heated discusion.
What a bout a merc holomine, it's a mine that's placed on the ground that displays a merc looking at camnet. But doesn't show up in thermal view. like a decoy.
Now fight!
That would be quite funny to see actually ;D
Sneak sneak... BOOM! Woops... :o
I actually like it :P
Quote from: goodkebab on September 26, 2007, 01:14:43 PM
I am not going to bothere reading rants, but we do have to seriously change the names and visual appearance of all gadgets.
That means EMF cannot be blue, MT cannot be red....and Thermal needs a different shader.
Its not about being broken, its about being able to make it in the first place.
While I can understand MT and EMF needing a facelift because they are more unique to SvM, NV and Thermal Vision (which are technically the same thing, but we won't go there) don't need a new shader because they are widely used in other games. Ubisoft didn't make those two things up. The same goes for flashbangs and smoke grenades. On the other hand, unique items like camnet, HB sensor, and the camo suit need to be implemented in a different way.
Still, the fact that you're using a newer and better engine means that everything is going to look differently to begin with.
The point is to be reasonable and not change everything due to extreme paranoia.
actually, the camo suit is stolen from alien vs predator and the heartbeat sensor from rainbow six, too. btw, does it make a difference where epic's office is based at? we're kinda international, so ubi would have to go to epic, right? we really should get concrete informations on the legal topic before starting a paranoia...
yeah nv is technically quite similar to tv, it's just showing another part of the ir spectrum.
R6 is made by ubisoft, no?
But the overall point is that the items and equipment in SvM isn't as unique as everyone thinks. People see something and incorporate it into games time and again, and courts have upheld their rights to do this time and again.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 05:09:54 PM
R6 is made by ubisoft, no?
i think tom clancy wrote the book first, but ubi might have bought the rights.
I was referring to the games.
You know, ive been thinking about the appearance of merc vision modes and then I reminded myself Lord of the rings. Wouldnt it be cool if one of visions looked like the world when frodo puts the ring on the finger ?
If you dont know what im talking about, try to find this movie scene.
Its black-grey-white colours with some cool wind effect added.
PS. Dont think im some lotr maniac. I just think this effect would look cool and it fit into the game.
that wouldn't be such a bad idea. when the merc runs around and turns the enviroment would leave tails or streaks across the screen like ghosts or something.
would look cool.
Just some food for thought in regards to Electro Magnetic Vision - I did a little research and no portable units seem to exist (Not wearable anyhow) and the colors are more what you would expect from a thermal imaging system, Blue being least resistant and reflecting less energy back to the device, yellow in mid range and red for highly resistant and heavy reflection of energy back to the imaging device. It seems that it works by projecting a magnetic field at the target and measuring the target's own magnetic field by how much is reflected back. Depending on what happens with Thermal we could consider something like this. Real EMF looks a lot like an MRI actually... Kinda Ugly imo... Be interesting to vaguely see internal organs on a Merc though. Spy suit could contain his EM Field unless lit up by using equipment... Dunno... Maybe some sort of hazy glowing on highly reflective objects?
I think doing research on the way these visions work in real life is a great place to start. You can't be sues for emulating a real-life device :).
there's no emf vision device in rl that works at least similarly to ct's one afaik.
Quote from: element54 on September 26, 2007, 06:51:12 PM
when the merc runs around and turns the enviroment would leave tails or streaks across the screen like ghosts or something.
And thats what im talking about !
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 26, 2007, 07:53:13 PMBe interesting to vaguely see internal organs on a Merc though.
Sounds like a lot of extra modeling work...
Quote from: Cyntrox on September 26, 2007, 09:01:54 PM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on September 26, 2007, 07:53:13 PMBe interesting to vaguely see internal organs on a Merc though.
Sounds like a lot of extra modeling work...
Maybe but with post render effects I wouldn't think it would take much but a very simple model displayed when in the vision mode.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 07:56:07 PM
I think doing research on the way these visions work in real life is a great place to start. You can't be sues for emulating a real-life device :).
Yeah, which is actually why Thermal and NV shouldn't run us into any problems... I'm not really sure the camo suit should either. I mean, invisibility suits have existed long before splinter cell. We just call it something else.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on September 26, 2007, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on September 26, 2007, 07:56:07 PM
I think doing research on the way these visions work in real life is a great place to start. You can't be sues for emulating a real-life device :).
Yeah, which is actually why Thermal and NV shouldn't run us into any problems... I'm not really sure the camo suit should either. I mean, invisibility suits have existed long before splinter cell. We just call it something else.
Yeah, it seems the common name for it is Optical Camouflage. There are several different ways they do it and some are more specifically named such as retro-reflective which wouldn't work anyways as this method requires preset conditions.
wow guys....keep it going!
The LOTR effect would be a motion blur + a smeared noise filter. This would probably be pretty convincing in MT. Kinda like its so sensitive that it is picking up air turbulance from everywhere.
Xray sounds like a lot of work, but could be wicked to visualize. Imagine seeing skeletons with glowing circuits glowing around them. :D
So ya, I didn't want to play Halo3 for some reason and did this.
Here's an attempt at a new hud along with my version of TRON MT.
Anyway, about the hud, Top left, I didn't draw the grenade symbol because honestly I suck at making little icon things. See my UI page for proof. It's the same reason why there's no "crouching" merc beside it to show you're crouching. There's the health bar at the top, and below is a symbol i made for the objectives and then the time. Top right is the spy traped spy.
The reticle is currently going hay wire becaus of an alarm snar...I mean Sonic Disrupter. The little rainbow in the middle is the power of the grenade I'm about to shoot off the wall at full power. Text would appear bottom right and not in the middle of the fucking screen. And the warnings, well is right there.
I chose white, as the colour as it's white like this website here and that's about it. I made the sound detection sharp because I wanted it to be a little more menacing looking. Oh and the white thick bar on the reticule would go green when you pass over your teamate so you don't shoot the poor guy, and yellow for the spy. Although, that may not be good cause then it'd be like the lazer so scratch that and just make it go red when you shoot a spy.
I'll be making a HUD later with more of a central theme, meaning info would be sneakily placed at the bottom. And am currently entertaining the idea of a light border to resembel the visor.
The MT vision works kinda like Mr.Mics. If the spy isn't moving, you don't see him. Basically, the outlines are only there so you can get around. As you see everything disappears. Except when the spy shows up, it'd be like a spotlight on him and he'd be as detailed as in normal mode. The contrast should be pretty neat. Not very stylized though. That's what you get with TRON. Plus I would think making this would be pretty simple.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg444.imageshack.us%2Fimg444%2F9726%2Ffirsthudci0.th.jpg&hash=469622684d3326633534d3c209a024167ac53f9d) (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firsthudci0.jpg) (https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg101.imageshack.us%2Fimg101%2F9765%2Ftronmtzg0.th.jpg&hash=2d0ff06d9d59f20eaf6c8d0af5cc5d77d07061af) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tronmtzg0.jpg)
Ooo, coold daybreak. Shouldn't the gun be all outlined and such though?
Personally I will be happy if motion tracker stays the same but its ability to detect slowly moving spies and night vision are gone. Then the problems will be fixed and less work would have to be done. But hey, making X ray vision, LOTR effect vision, ambient occlusion will make this game a lot better.
Interesting MT concept that is an alternative to copying EMF-style shaders.
Quote from: Papa Skull on September 27, 2007, 07:20:47 AM
But hey, making X ray vision, LOTR effect vision, ambient occlusion will make this game a lot better.
no it won't.
good idea daybreak. it allows for easy navigation and spies not moving would be invisible. should fast moving objects like spies get white outlines or boxes?
They'd be come detailed. I left the gun in so you could see the contrast. Something nicely detailed surround by black would stick out like a sore thumb. Hell, just find a picture of a spy and copy paste him into that picture. That's what would happen!
I think there are too many colours in Daybreak's work. I guess it should be stylized like many tints of the same colour e.g. of grey or many white things.
a detected moving object should be framed or boxed by a white line.
i'm ok with the colors.
the function itself should work like the stuff that mr.mic and others suggested, eg total invisibility when not in motion, camo lets you crouch walk without detection, box/outline should stay on a detected object for some some seconds, instant detection, 360Ã,° detection, radius about 25 meters (no environment lines should show up above 25m, too. so the merc gets a better feeling for the range).
Would produce an interesting effect if the lines were black and it was mixed in with ambient occlusion and a light colored scheme. Some noise too. Be easy to see stuff and look pretty cool.
As long as the spy doesnt occlude the lines when moving slowly or stationary. That would make the spy to easily spotable in some locations.
white lines or boxes. I hear that one more time, i'll shoot my self in the foot. There are other ways to make a character visible for MT. White lines aren't as useful as you think, and that box thing never really worked for me. IT may have worked, but I'm sure there are other solutions that would work better at identifying a spy.
sure but the there must be something like a box that indicates the location for 1s furtheron when the spy is running behind cover.
btw, any idea how to visualize smoke?
Quote from: Daybreak on September 27, 2007, 05:53:22 PM
white lines or boxes. I hear that one more time, i'll shoot my self in the foot. There are other ways to make a character visible for MT. White lines aren't as useful as you think, and that box thing never really worked for me. IT may have worked, but I'm sure there are other solutions that would work better at identifying a spy.
The boxes help see through smoke clouds.
Quote from: Spekkio on September 27, 2007, 07:08:01 PM
Quote from: Daybreak on September 27, 2007, 05:53:22 PM
white lines or boxes. I hear that one more time, i'll shoot my self in the foot. There are other ways to make a character visible for MT. White lines aren't as useful as you think, and that box thing never really worked for me. IT may have worked, but I'm sure there are other solutions that would work better at identifying a spy.
The boxes help see through smoke clouds.
QFE
could some1 plz anser my question how smoke should be visualized in the tron design??
Quote from: Gawain on September 27, 2007, 10:04:37 PM
could some1 plz anser my question how smoke should be visualized in the tron design??
You could make a suggestion :P
No real good idea with the tron thing as it stands, but if it were a mix of the tron design along with mr mics rendering and kebab's ambient occlusion idea there would certainly be enough defining background to create a black cloud. The lines certainly don't need to be white or that solid either. The wireframe in a black with a little blur could be used to enhance detail. Would create a little more depth for navigation.
Edit: not sure how it would work in the post render but if the only real way to do it is to render the wire frame and layer it into the post; you might wind up with lines where you don't want them. Especially on complex objects.
i like the black background and bright lines, it makes good contrast. i think chaff and smoke should be visible with it, maybe with some white static noise in form of it (would be logical as a lot of little moving objects are highlighted). i'm really unsure about it. maybe one shouldn't see smoke at all like in emf, but mt is to an anti aggro and hunting down vision for me, so i think it should.
Man, someone's eager for a response. I do work you know.
Anyway, smoke doesn't need to be visiualized. It's not in EMF so why in MT. No smoke means no box. Maybe I'm not clear on what the spy looks like when he's running away.
Visualize it, as I can't post a picture. This is how it would work.
Esentially, the spy in TRON MT wouldn't be seen at all. And would basically be a black figure. IF he moves too much, he would slowly be come more detailed. Need more help? In movies, a spot light can shine from behind someone and all you see is a silouette. A black figure. Shine a spot light on him and you can see every detail.
As for the mysterious smoke, how would you see through it. Exactly like a spy in Termal does. So while you might be able to see the spy runaway, you wouldn't know if he's runnign through smoke cause you can't see it. It might suck, but it'd balance out. Seeing has how the vision did what it's supposed to do which is track the spy.
i feel like watching TRON all of the sudden. ???
Ppl plz believe me these colours and design should be changed. Im not saying Daybreak cant make things but at least now I really know what im talking about.
You shouldnt gather so many colours in such a game. You should choose one or two fitting with each other colours and use their tintsa. The arrows should be smoother, not that big and transparent.
If you dont know what I mean, just look at screens of any game.
Lets say scct:
They used tints of green for spy and yellow's for merc. Thats how it should be done, and thats how you make it stylized, fresh and pro. Hud is very very important if you make it look like made with Paint ppl will judge this game before they really try it.
You can take a look at these casual screenshots.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061122/luban_02_clip_image006_0000.jpg
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061026/pascal_01_clip_image004.jpg
http://www.firingsquad.com/media/galleries/fear_multiplayer_demo/10.jpg
http://www.fpsteam.it/img2007/farcry/FarCry_multiplayer_207-01-19.jpg
http://pclab.pl/zdjecia/artykuly/goomish/doom3/duze/Doom3-032.jpg
Im not telling you to copy their style but to use similar technics in creating a hud.
NO! This is the way it's going to be! MY way is ULTIMATE! I'm just throwing out ideas guy. "now you really know what I"m talking about" Congratulations for showing you think you're better than me. Now then, produce something.
Anyway, here's something new. Normal and a basic LOTR MT. It's not as fancy as it could be. That's why it's basic. I'd like to appolgise to neth for the quality because obviously believe him it'll have to change.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg254.imageshack.us%2Fimg254%2F9043%2Fhudcopyrj9.th.jpg&hash=cff4f8525baa64b292e23dcc37ca5dee1753db88) (http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hudcopyrj9.jpg) (https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg229.imageshack.us%2Fimg229%2F3830%2Flotrmtyn3.th.jpg&hash=56e3569c53638d1f1156bae6f7ff631409835339) (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lotrmtyn3.jpg)
I like how in the regular vision you can see the other layer on the right. Ah well.
The drawback of tron MT is that you can't do spy visibility gradually. It's going to be real easy to spot a spy on tron MT, where Mr.Mic's version allows you to have a slow moving spy barely vision, a moderately fast one more visible and a fast moving spy very obvious (perhaps even a whole new color).
Daybreak: How does your MT work? Are spies visible in your MT while not moving? Also it's a rather weird vision. seems more like sniper vision than MT. MT is supposed to be good at close range, and this thing just blurs you to death for close combat. I'm not certain what it's supposed to achieve with the tunnel vision effect.
Thanx a lot for your suggestions Daybreak, and please everyone follow his examples!
Instead of criticizing the ideas, come up with solutions everyone.
As of yet, we do NOT have a finished concept of the Merc Hud, but that is not the purpose of this thread.
Hud can come later, we want to worry about the vision modes.
My intention was not to show that im better than you and you know nothing cause I dont know much about methods of creating such things. I didnt even want to criticize you for anything. It was just a bit late so I had to cut my sentence and in the end it made no sense. So peace man :)
I only say other ways of creating HUD I consider to be better. Thing is that when we create huds which are not transparent they may sometimes make waves when aiming.
Im no flamer so do as you want
what about mt vision in black and white, and areas of air turbulences are shown in color? so if a spy shoots a cam, one can see the way it flies some time after etc
Quote from: Gawain on September 28, 2007, 01:35:59 PM
what about mt vision in black and white, and areas of air turbulences are shown in color? so if a spy shoots a cam, one can see the way it flies some time after etc
I hadn't thought of that. pretty neat idea actually. I'm not sure being able to track a cams trajectory be would good though.
Gas mask and EMF location of a camera should be enough to ward off cams, any more and the balance may be upset. Not to mention the laser creates a hot-spot at the target location.
Edit: SP
To Neth: Now worries man, I just like busting balls and making fun of people that say things that don't make sense. I'm pretty relaxed. I know you meant no harm, however I'll make fun of you for it. Think of it like friends making fun of eachother. That's about all I ever do on here.
The my Tron MT wouldn't have the gradual Motion Tracking like Mics. As I figure, if you're moving above a certain speed, you're seen. Course that speed would have to be play tested to make sure it worked. As for the LOTR vision, that was someone elses idea, and i just made a quick sketch of what it might look like. The tunnel vision would create a problem, I think. So it'd have to be looked into.
Currently, MT is to help counter agro. In Tron, falshes don't affect you, you don't see smoke, so it doesn't impare your tracking, you can't see motionless spies and them moving at a certain speed as they'd be completely black, and the spy looks like a normal render when moving too fast. The only thing that'd give them away would be if they disrupted one of the lines showing, which might be a big thing, or not. I don't really know.
actually the lotr vision was my idea. GL in next huds hope you listen to my advices.
about spy-cloaking:
I WANT GOOD SHADERS!
that is all.