what if you get your 4 standard eq and then each team has 1 set eq. spies like will always have camosuit and mercs with always have camnet/drone. i mean the camo suit is part of the suit...and the arm thing on the merc too is always on his arm! ;p
No thx. Only if the camo suit gets a limited battery because mercs can run out of drones.
P.s. I do want drones in PS please :)
yes ofc wit limited use because of battery (that should be seperate from gun batery). when u deactivate suit the battery dont go up again. start from same lvl next time u activate it.
If the merc gets anything integral, it should be gasmask. That's like as close as it comes to a truly necessary gadget in CT.
ya gas mask is a better idea
Freedom for the world! No standard sets you can't adjust, everyone should have the freedom to take any equipment they think they'll need.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on October 24, 2007, 08:34:01 PM
If the merc gets anything integral, it should be gasmask. That's like as close as it comes to a truly necessary gadget in CT.
This was my thought too but I never said anything because I hear stories of oddly shaped people who don't bring the gas mask to every game and I don't want to take away their freedom.
Edit: God dammit, Lennard! >:(
I don't take gasmask, i take tazer instead :P
hmm mask is a "must be" and its impossible to play without it. That may be a reason to make it integral.
the problem is having random partners
some people like to have camnet, others hate it....some want tazer.....etc etc
you can still take camnet and all that with regular 4 eq slots. all that i propose is each team gets one perma eq that is specific to the team. camo suit and mask - camo suit energy can run out just like the mask. so should use carefully. also it is not required for the player to use the eq but pretty dumb if they dont considering its basically a free eq.
this i guess is like the 5 eq threads. cept one eq is already picked for each team.
me likes free camo and mask.
I'd rather have 5 slots, but free camo and mask sounds fine to me, too.
I wouldn't opt for anything integrated. I mean we should have the choice to choose a gadget and no one should just be given a freebie. Gas-mask isn't even always obligatory. Just give people choice.
Quote from: psyichic on October 25, 2007, 12:27:14 AM
Gas-mask isn't even always obligatory
neither is camo suit
No, this shouldn't turn into DA with only one gadget that you can decide.
Drones are an interesting idea, but they would have to be different than DA's drones.
you missed the point papa. its regular 4 eq slots + camo (for spies) + mask (for mercs).
as merc you take:
frags, mines, traps, backpack . intact eq: mask
as spy you take:
smoke, chaff, flash, camera . intact eq: camo
its basically like the 5 eq some people have been talking about. only that your 5th eq is already picked for you. everyone can use mask and camo at some point in the game. the camo has limited energy as the mask has certain amount of gas. just like mask you cant use camo anymore if the energy runs out, unless you die.
if you think camo/mask are imba, just can change the eq. each with limited energy
camo/tazer
camo/phos
camo/camnet
camo/drone
Oh, read it wrong. I would rather have it be just 5 gadgets you choose and not be forced to take camnet. Same thing with gasmask.
Woot, Seefoo is back :)!
**off topic but id thought id ask anyway now that your presently on the forums again **
Has it yet been decided if your GUI for the lobby is the final decision as the layout ?
No, but we're working on it.
I don't really want to derail this into yet another MT whine thread, but I think seefoo's idea has some merit to fixing the ability. Everyone presumed that camo is the natural hard-counter to MT, so giving the spies the innate ability to use it would certainly help balance it without having to go nuts on MT itself.
if camo doesn't allow crouching undetected in normal speed, it's not that useful against mt (if it was more people would take it).
the current energy system for camo is way better than your suggestion.
Also, make camo work on all movement speeds, but make it drain more power the faster you go.
Spy Running (with rolling) 5 seconds or so.
Spy going slowly, say 30 seconds.
I don't really like the camo as a counter to MT. It never really worked even back in CT and not just because of EAX, but because you can easily toggle MT and EMF easily enough.
I prefer just going with Mr.Mics MT where the spy is invisible when motionless and only running produces the box effect. That'll work nicely to fix MT.
As far as integral camo, what if we just made it so that a motionless spy using camo is completely invisible. Not just transparent mind you, but totally undetectable via normal vision (that is, he's not even rendered at all while stationary).
imo he should be totally invisible in medium range but not in close range, as it would be totally awesome for grabs. heck, you could stand in the middle of the room when and a chaffed merc has no chance to see you. hmm talking about it, this sounds awesome XD
if you can still be detected by laser (and camnet still get's emf) it could be balanced (chaff would become a boost, and it already got a nerf with not working through walls). it may sound totally insane, but it's not that op in avp where the pred is almost perfectly invisible to the humans. with camo workling like this, there could be a real stealth possibility besides cams to knock out a merc in late game. my biggest concern is that everyone will stary cycling through visions all the time which would be kinda stupid...
Quote from: Gawain on October 25, 2007, 09:58:21 PM
imo he should be totally invisible in medium range but not in close range, as it would be totally awesome for grabs. heck, you could stand in the middle of the room when and a chaffed merc has no chance to see you. hmm talking about it, this sounds awesome XD
Yeah, though remember, camo still runs on a battery, so it's not like you can sit and wait forever for a merc to come along. Also a merc can still physically hit you and realize there's an obstruction, and mercs will likely be trained to berserk or charge into such things when they happens, so I don't see it being that overpowered.
Quote
if you can still be detected by laser (and camnet still get's emf) it could be balanced (chaff would become a boost, and it already got a nerf with not working through walls).
Well I had planned on removing EMF from camnet, but the laser would certainly work to detect you if you were camoed. Really camo is your only shot at bypassing a camnet undetected, so I don't think camnet should be able to detect camo, at least not easily. Maybe it still has its laser it can sweep a camoed spy with, or of course, the camo blur effect still exists if a spy is moving. He only becomes completely invisible while stationary.
Quote
it may sound totally insane, but it's not that op in avp where the pred is almost perfectly invisible to the humans. with camo workling like this, there could be a real stealth possibility besides cams to knock out a merc in late game. my biggest concern is that everyone will stary cycling through visions all the time which would be kinda stupid...
Yeah, the only real thing I worry about if camo becomes automatic equipment is that it may actually lose value, because everyone will be on the look out for it, which kinda sucks. So I'm thinking maybe we should keep camo suit as a gadget, and not automatic. We probably don't want camo to be overused, it should be more of a surprise when your spy turns on camo.
yeah you're totally right, camo should be the counter to camnet so no visions for camnet.
maybe camo should work with every speed (should drain more energy though);
at least the faster you move the more blurry it should get. this could also help against snipers (like in bf2142). the effect should probably be that you are totally invisible (exect for laser, emf and moving lights like flashlight) when not in motion, invisible while crouching in medium distance or running in big distance.
bumping into invisible spies reminds me of team fortress 2 where it is a huge problem for the spies :D
Quote from: Gawain on October 26, 2007, 12:16:01 AM
yeah you're totally right, camo should be the counter to camnet so no visions for camnet.
maybe camo should work with every speed (should drain more energy though);
at least the faster you move the more blurry it should get. this could also help against snipers (like in bf2142). the effect should probably be that you are totally invisible (exect for laser, emf and moving lights like flashlight) when not in motion, invisible while crouching in medium distance or running in big distance.
bumping into invisible spies reminds me of team fortress 2 where it is a huge problem for the spies :D
I'd be a little worried about camo while running, simply because it could be too nasty of an aggro tactic. Drop a chaff, then camo up and start circling the merc. He can't turn on any visions and he can barely see you through the chaff. Be a fairly easy neck break I think. Moving while fast crouching is fine for a stealth gadget. About the only change I'd like is that you could take a drop with camo on and it stays on. That way you could drop from the tech room roof or something and keep your camo on. I'm thinking maybe that camo could stay active until you make noise or something. Anything that would ping the reticule could disable camo.
I do like the idea how varying speeds change your visibility. Like stationary could be completely invisible, slow crouch could be barely visible and fast crouch could be how camo is now.
The more I think about it, the more I like seefoo's suggestion.
i also like 4 slots + camo, but with the current energy system.
what about drones? i hate that i can't do anything to get spies out of vents, but i think it's rather bad map design (shootable vents like station or the half ceiling in orph are way better).
Oh, right...yea, def one energy system.
I don't see a problem with spies camping vents other than it's boring. Time is on your side.
well, here's one example: museum, spy got into exe vent, one merc goes to exhib, the other one stays in cafe/elevators and it's only a matter of time when the other spy will go mono.
i think if you know where a spy is, you should be able to go hunt for him (except for spawn lol).
The reason I don't want camo to be in your equipment automatically is because camo is virtually useless on a dark map. The maps I would think about taking camo on are maps w/o a lot of shadows to hide in like club house or museum. PLus destructible lighting is a possibility right? So, I predict darker maps, and so I predict a lot of useless maps for camo. I would like a 5 gadget slot, and not anything built in. Gas mask built in I am still kind of iffy about.
Well, in the scheme of things, guarding cafe is much more important than monolith. This is where camnet helps a ton. This is also why Museum was much better when it was 2/3 objectives from each room.
QuoteThe reason I don't want camo to be in your equipment automatically is because camo is virtually useless on a dark map. The maps I would think about taking camo on are maps w/o a lot of shadows to hide in like club house or museum. PLus destructible lighting is a possibility right? So, I predict darker maps, and so I predict a lot of useless maps for camo. I would like a 5 gadget slot, and not anything built in. Gas mask built in I am still kind of iffy about.
Then you don't have to use it. This is a FREE gadget. It's not costing you anything to have it. The same could be said about the mask if spies take something like flash/chaff/snare/hb sensor. So what? It didn't cost you anything to have the item.
But then you are adding a gadget that everyone always has. To people who don't use it it will just be pointless. Camo is not as much a necessity as other gadgets so adding it would just be pointless to a good group of players. And even if it is turned into an anti-MT device that doesn't mean anything. Unless you wanted to add a delay between vision switching that was significant enough to seriously hinder a merc people will just cycle through visions enough to make Camo essentially useless again. Not to mention think about the change in a player's mentality when they know Camo is ALWAYS with a spy. They will always be checking for it. Camo is mostly useful when people are not expecting it. When everyone has it it will become expected alot more. It will just turn Camo into another useless gadget.
I mean what is the difference even between the 5/8 system and a 4/8 (or 4/7 or whatever) when you have an integrated gadget? If it proves so necessary it will be just as good as implemented anyways. Just give people a choice in the matter instead of deciding "You will need this gadget!".
Dude, it does cost you to take the item! Instead of getting 5 slots, you get 4 slots because the camo suit is already taken up one of them. I don't really need the camo that often, as I said, mostly on club house/museum I will THINK about taking it. Even then, I don't always take it. Especially since on dark maps, you shouldn't need the camo suit to go undetected anyways. In fact, it will help you get detected if someone flips on EMF...
you guys obviously dont know how to use camo suit. there are many uses for it.
also if a merc knows a spy has camo suit is not always bad. saw many good players flip emf on because they heard the camo suit noise. actually the camo suit ran out, they flip on emf and then they are grabbed cuz they walk right by the spy. there are many more situations where camo has fooled mercs but i wont get into it.
its not a matter of 'use this gadget and only this gadget'. its a matter of hey look at spy suit it has camo eq on it so just give it to the spy for free. and the merc has built in mask or camnet cuz its on the damn model. i dont see what is so hard to understand about it.
Current Equip:
Smoke nades
Chaff Nades or Flash Nades
Sticky Cams
Heartbeat or Spy Bullets
It somewhat depends on the map itself.
I don't think that camo suit has enough positive aspects to replace one of those gadgets. It just really doesn't.
I would rather have 5 slots where sometimes I may take the camo suit.
its not there to replace anything. ITS THERE TO USE IF YOU NEED OR WANT TO, just like the mask - not everyone will use.
...and again you probably dont even know how to use camo suit except turn it on right in front of merc thinking you are invisible...
Quote from: seefoo. on October 26, 2007, 03:16:34 AM
its not there to replace anything. ITS THERE TO USE IF YOU NEED OR WANT TO, just like the mask - not everyone will use.
...and again you probably dont even know how to use camo suit except turn it on right in front of merc thinking you are invisible...
To this post i say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFXTJQY2SY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFXTJQY2SY4), but to be realistic there are ways of of timing it right so that the merc doesn't hear the camo =).
Quote from: seefoo. on October 26, 2007, 03:16:34 AM
its not there to replace anything. ITS THERE TO USE IF YOU NEED OR WANT TO, just like the mask - not everyone will use.
...and again you probably dont even know how to use camo suit except turn it on right in front of merc thinking you are invisible...
Seefoo, I don't know why it's so hard for these guys to grasp that concept.
The gadget is FREE. If you don't use it, IT DOESN'T COST YOU ANYTHING!
WTF?! It will cost you the 5 slot gadgets!! Instead you will have 4 gadgets and a gadget you don't always need. Personally, I would rather choose my fifth gadget rather than have it already chosen for me. It DOES cost you! Why wouldn't you rather have 5 gadgets that you can actually choose? Beats me...
It isn't free. We are all talking 5 gadget slots. Making one gadget take up a slot permanently WILL cost me a slot in my equipment. Honestly, I've got no idea how you think it doesn't cost you anything.
Well, we don't have 5 gadget slots atm, and 5 slots could very well be bad for gamplay.
If you have 5 gadget slots, more gadgets, and less of them ( say 3 for each gadget slot ), then it wouldn't be bad for gameplay. Sure the spies would have a lot of gadgets, but there are more variety of them, less of each, and hey - spies should have as much gadgets that they can carry. I know that I would if I was infiltrating a base which was guarded by mercs, I would take as much as I could. But off the realism argument...
And 5 gadget slots sounds very possible atm, even though we don't technically have it.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 26, 2007, 05:52:40 AM
Well, we don't have 5 gadget slots atm, and 5 slots could very well be bad for gamplay.
Interesting?
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 26, 2007, 06:19:39 AM
If you have 5 gadget slots, more gadgets, and less of them ( say 3 for each gadget slot )
i alerady suggested this months ago and no1 liked it. keep up with the times man you are laggin like an old lady lols ;D
the amount of one gadget could also be used for balancing. why does it have to be always 5 for the spy? reducing the amount of cams and smoke nades to 4 sounds good to me, with 4 or 5 slots.
with a fixed/buffed camo for everyone the mercs will start cycling through visions insanely. maybe reducing emf range a little bit would work out well.
Why didn't anyone like it? It would totally balance out the 5 gadget slot idea. And if I remember correctly, I liked it.
I am saying that integrating anything into the characters will be foolish because people's mentality towards it will change. Not to mention are you just suggesting that we do this because it is "integrated"? I mean that sounds like you are going for a realistic idea. The game isn't about realism as we all know. What is one good GAMEPLAY element that will be positively impacted by integrating the gadgets? I mean by that definition the HBS should also be integrated into the suit since it seems to be integrated into the gun and there is no obvious change in the gun.
Not to mention the choice of gadgets seems odd for people to choose camo. Seefoo I am not saying that camo is bad in any sense. I have always greatly respected players that are quite good with it like yourself but it is not an extremely commonly used gadget. I say leave the system the way it is.
Camo is not the best choice when you are used to 2 nades. From my experience i can say that i usually take smokes, chaffs, HBS and cams. Tried to take camo instead of cams but its just not my style of playing and it would be very difficult to exchange any other of the 3 gadgets for camo. I know that many ppl I know have similar opinion to mine and camo would have to be buffed drastically to take it. But its very difficult to do it without making it OP. I consider camo to be a cool tech gadget but not very useful. We could ofc give ppl 5 gadgets but IMO that sux
i can't see a reason to integrate it. integrating sticky cams would make much more sense balance/gameplay wise if all mercs get mask.
the problem with camo is the activation noise + eax, the too high visibility in medium distance (high resolution) and emf whoring people (ghosting is ok, but too high range). if all these points are fixed and camo is still too weak, it could allow crouching against mt.
haha lols ya emf ghosting is awesome.
Quote from: kronf on October 27, 2007, 06:37:51 PM
haha lols ya emf ghosting is awesome.
what exactly do you mean?
irony detector biep biep...
Its one of the lamest things in the game.
I agree, but we all use it.
It makes sense to integrate camo/camnet more from a balance and gameplay perspective.
It is damn hard to design a map that reaches the correct amount of security both with and without camnet. By giving mercs camnet inherently, you have an easier time balancing maps knowing that mercs always have it. I actually think this is a really good solution because the only other solution I can think of to balancing camnet is removing it from the game entirely. Even if you remove the special visions and laser on camnet, you still run into a lot of problems on how to balance maps when the mercs have camnet, and when they don't.
Likewise, an integrated camo can serve as a way to balance out merc visions and abilities without going nuts on completely revamping MT. It will also tend to be more useful if the PS devs put it into the game correctly, not to mention it fits into the whole sneaky spy/stealth thing. Automatic sticky cams don't epitomize that so much.
As a bonus, it makes sense from a stylistic perspective because both the spy and merc model have these gadgets drawn on them no matter what.
It doesn't really have much to do with how often each is used, but what could improve gameplay and help balance out the game.
wow spek agrees something with one of my idea :)
other said cam/mask that is a good balance i think
I don't like the idea of integrating cam/mask. Camo/mask or camo/camnet is good, with camo/camnet being the best option I think.
by making the camnet a forced gadget
new players can respond better to the gameplay.
a lot of new players dont have good tracking skills
by giving them a gadget that reponse to there needs
there more able to get to the right place in time
for my own example
i sucked at playing the factory (CT) as merc.
my tracking skills wherent that great on that map
so it was the only map where i select the camnet as gadget
for the camosuit.
new players like to be sure about not being seen when they play as a spy
this gadget gives them that, i think they will like it.
(this is from a seen from a new players view)
I second Spekkio.
Well the only thing i really liked in DA was this arm device allowing to break glass and lights quickly. I wish something like this was integrated.
I still see no importance of integrating a permanent gadget into the spies equipment. I do, however, see an importance of 5 gadgets if need be. There will always be matches where you don't need camo, and where you don't need camnet. Why exactly would you force someone to take it? And yes, noobs like to use camo a lot, but just because it isn't integrated permanently it doesn't mean they can't choose it if they want to.
Correct, a lot of players don't have good tracking skills, obviously. But why can't we just give them the choice to use it or not?
Does anyone even realize how drastic the gameplay would change with permanent gadgets? Seriously! Think about how everyone know that the other team will be using camnet, or be using camo! Merc's will whore EMF, spies will avoid camnet areas at all costs. The reason why spies currently can walk through a room with a camera in it is because they don't know if merc's have camnet or not, and just assume that they don't. When a spy is detected on a camnet, they don't always know that the merc even has a camnet to begin with. Giving them a camnet EVERY match, would be dumb. Same as giving spies camo, mercs WILL expect to see camo-using spies and they will start using EMF more and more often.
Something that is great about camo suit is that mercs won't see you, they will never know you are there, and they will never know that you brought camo suit in the first place. On top of that, camo suit can also be totally useless in dark maps/areas.
I don't see why you would want to force someone to bring a gadget, seems stupid imo.
spies should get 5 slots and nothing permanent, mercs should get 4 or 5 slots + permanent mask.
the idea behind this is: sticky and smoke nades are so strong that even the chance the opponent might take one or both of them makes mask mandatory and with practically every merc taking mask they are still a good choice. thing is, the spies could not take smoke and sticky cams so that the merc has totally wasted a slot. if we boost the other gadgets that they become equally strong, this might happen very often and the mercs have a disadvantage. but maybe it could be balanced that this advantage plus the boost is balanced.
the problem with the spies is rather to prevent triple nades; the best way to do so is to limit the nade slots to 2.
That's just based upon how often someone uses an item, which isn't a good basis.
Giving spies camo gives them a natural hard-counter to both camnet and MT. However, the mercs can counter camo by using EMF, laser, and the flashlight. Furthermore, free camo doesn't make triple nades overpowered.
Giving mercs camnet allows map makers to balance maps without the headache of having too much security with camnet, or not enough security without camnet. Plus, as pointed out before, spies with camo have a natural counter to it.
No one HAS to take smoke or cams; therefore, the merc doesn't HAVE to take the mask. Furthermore, the mask does not have any effect whatsoever on map balance, whereas both camo and camnet could.
Quote from: Gawain on October 27, 2007, 11:30:50 PM
spies should get 5 slots and nothing permanent, mercs should get 4 or 5 slots + permanent mask.
the idea behind this is: sticky and smoke nades are so strong that even the chance the opponent might take one or both of them makes mask mandatory and with practically every merc taking mask they are still a good choice. thing is, the spies could not take smoke and sticky cams so that the merc has totally wasted a slot. if we boost the other gadgets that they become equally strong, this might happen very often and the mercs have a disadvantage. but maybe it could be balanced that this advantage plus the boost is balanced.
the problem with the spies is rather to prevent triple nades; the best way to do so is to limit the nade slots to 2.
Totally disagree.
bs, mask is mandatory.
how about 4 slots + camo for spies, and 3 slots + mask + camnet for mercs? i think it still leaves enough space different loadouts, but allows for better gadget and map balance.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:04:12 AM
bs, mask is mandatory.
how about 4 slots + camo for spies, and 3 slots + mask + camnet for mercs? i think it still leaves enough space different loadouts, but allows for better gadget and map balance.
No, let's make it smoke + chaff + camo + cam + hbs for spies and camnet + mask + frags + mines + tazer for merc!
serious answers plz :D
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:04:12 AM
bs, mask is mandatory.
how about 4 slots + camo for spies, and 3 slots + mask + camnet for mercs? i think it still leaves enough space different loadouts, but allows for better gadget and map balance.
I don't like the idea of forcing two equipment items.
I have no problem with camo/mask being gimmes. I just think camnet is better for map balancing purposes. You gotta admit, there really isn't a map where camnet is actually balanced. It's either extremely powerful or extremely useless. Plus, the spies can negate mask by just not taking smoke or cams. Spies cannot ever make camnet 100% useless.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:18:08 AM
serious answers plz :D
Tsk, it was serious in an ironical way.
I say that there should be absolutely no forcing equipment whatsoever. I still haven't seen a good point ( other than gas mask being forced ) that it should even be considered.
I think I like the camo/camnet version Will need to think it over later.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 12:34:11 AM
I say that there should be absolutely no forcing equipment whatsoever. I still haven't seen a good point ( other than gas mask being forced ) that it should even be considered.
Allowing map makers to balance maps more easily, giving spies a counter to the often complained about MT/camnet, and averting potential imbalances from giving spies 5 gadgets aren't good enough?
You are giving the spies 5 gadgets by forcing one onto them anyways. Why wouldn't you let the spy choose?
and averting potential imbalances from giving spies 5 gadgets aren't good enough
lrn2read
Although Mr.Mic has made a good case for getting rid of camnet entirely.
it's easier to balance maps, visions and gadgets with everyone having the counter gadget.
I agree, but if the spies choose not to take smoke/cam, then the merc's 'counter gadget' is utterly useless. While it is hard to imagine that happening, you never know.
mask should be a free gadget as there's the chance that i has no use at all.
When each team has 5 gadgets, tell me how it is imbalanced. If spies had 4 gadgets and mercs had 5, then it would be imbalanced. Of course that would depend on what gadgets though... 5 gadgets allows spies to be more recon/aggro enabled. 5 gadgets for mercs would allow them to be more deadly, and allow them to track spies easier. From what I can see, that would balance out.
Learn to type.
Camo - Gas mask being forced aren't really counter gagdets anyways. They don't even relate to eachother ever.
The only thing I can see being even considered is camo - cam net being forced, and both teams get 4 gadgets on top of those. Still, it wouldn't be that great.
with counter gadget i mean that the gadget's main purpose is to nullify another one, eg mask (against cams and smoke) and camo (against camnet). it would be better in a competitive game if there is no chance that one of your gadgets is totally useless (mask).
Yeah I know that Gawain. Camo - Gas mask does not nullify the other gadget whatsoever.
If you do make Camnet - Camo forced, you do realize that everyone will pick the same gadgets from before in CT, depending on map of course. But generally, people will bring smoke, flash, sticky cams, and heart beat or spy bullets, and they will get camo on top of it. Same with merc: People will bring frags, mines, backpack, gas mask, and get a cam net on top of it. IMO, you should be able to choose that gadget, otherwise it will get repetitive using the same gadgets.
And you do realize that on some maps, camnet and camo will be useless. Such as close quarters maps or dark maps.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 01:07:04 AM
with counter gadget i mean that the gadget's main purpose is to nullify another one, eg mask (against cams and smoke) and camo (against camnet). it would be better in a competitive game if there is no chance that one of your gadgets is totally useless (mask).
I believe that this is actually a big problem in general for the competitive side of SvM. The fact that you have to "guess" what your opponent has bad. This doesn't mean just smoke/cam + mask, but also camnet + camo, smoke + shotty/uzi, and flashbang + rifle.
Giving the mercs a rifle no matter what will take some of that guesswork out of the game -- that is partly why I am for it. However, that discussion is in another thread. Cams/mask aren't that big of a deal because the meta-game has evolved to the point where it's 99.9% certain that at least one spy has cams and smoke, thus making the mask useful and unsurprising. The thing is, camnet is a surprise as-is. If the spy choses to take smoke/chaff/cam/HB (if 5 gadgets, add one that is not camo), then there is going to be a big problem when the eye-in-the-sky goes on. Not to mention that thinking from a map making perspective, how the hell do I design a map that keeps camnet useful, but doesn't make security + camnet OP or security + no camnet UP?
Furthermore, almost everyone on this forum has been whining about MT like it comes down from the heavens and strikes vengeance upon the spies. Yet when an idea is proposed to give the spies an inherent hard-counter to MT instead of redoing the entire vision, people are suddenly saying no. I don't get it.
The thing is, cams and smoke don't have to be balanced around the fact that the merc might have a mask. This is largely because the mercs still have to select and activate the mask in time to avoid a cam. If they don't have the mask, it affects them. If they do have the mask, it doesn't. However, maps DO have to be balanced around the fact that the mercs might take camnet (just like they might take mines or spy traps). Furthermore, merc's visions DO have to be balanced around the fact that spies MIGHT take camo. By giving these items to the teams inherently, you allow the game to be balanced more easily.
QuoteYeah I know that Gawain. Camo - Gas mask does not nullify the other gadget whatsoever.
If you do make Camnet - Camo forced, you do realize that everyone will pick the same gadgets from before in CT, depending on map of course. But generally, people will bring smoke, flash, sticky cams, and heart beat or spy bullets, and they will get camo on top of it. Same with merc: People will bring frags, mines, backpack, gas mask, and get a cam net on top of it. IMO, you should be able to choose that gadget, otherwise it will get repetitive using the same gadgets.
Not true. The spies do not have one single useless piece of equipment (contrary to the mercs which have both tazer and flares). The fact that camo is a given might make some people take snares more often, since the two can have a synergistic effect. Then again, it might not. Taking away the fact that bullets can be removed instantaneously, and giving snares a more silent fire that mimics PT, will go a long way in making spies take them again.
QuoteAnd you do realize that on some maps, camnet and camo will be useless. Such as close quarters maps or dark maps.
Wtf are you talking about? The maps in PS are probably going to be the same size as the maps in PT/CT. Furthermore, the mercs have laser + flashlight to find you in the dark. Camo makes it that much harder. Finally, if camo countered MT by allowing you to crouch-walk quickly around the merc, then there would be a use for it no matter what.
Ummm, it isn't hard to find someone in the dark using camo. In fact, it is easier. Push the EMF button, they'll light up like a christmas tree with very little effort to find them in the first place. If you lost a spy, and you think he is near, the first thing you are going to do is turn on emf and check and see if he is using camo. duh.
If I remember correctly, you don't support letting people see your stats like how much of the time you use visions, or how much of anything. But now you seem to want to know what your opponent is taking. Wtf?
You really need a lesson in reading comprehension. How the hell did you get from my post that I want people to know each other's equipment? What I said is that I want to take the guesswork away of A hard counters B and B hard counters C, because if you're that guy with B and your opponent has C then you're stuck with it for the rest of the round.
For example in CT, if the mercs take camnet, you are going to have a very hard time sneaking about the map without camo. If you ordinarilly play a stealthier playstyle, this means that you're absolutely fucked. Your only other option is to run around and force the merc not to look into this gadget. If you take camo without the mercs taking camnet, you're going to find its use relatively limited because they can hear you activate it.
Another example is that someone running around and chasing you with uzi + mt on is not going to be affected in the least by flashbangs. You want to have smoke grenades to discourage him from chasing you entirely.
The point isn't to make it so everyone knows each other's equipment, but to make it that you aren't at such an advantage or disadvantage depending on the composition of each team's loadout. The other solution is to implement a system where equipment can be changed on the fly, but I can't see that mechanic working in the context of this game.
EDIT: more along those lines, what happens if the merc takes mask and the spies don't have smoke/cams? NOTHING! There really is no huge disadvantage there; the spies have sacrificed an additional way to knockout the mercs (cams) in favor of something else. The thing is that the ability to KO a merc is so powerful that losing it more than makes up for the fact that the mask is rendered relatively useless. This is partly why mercs take mask without even thinking about it. If the spies don't take smoke or cams, so what? You don't really lose anything; in fact, you may have gained something by forcing them to sacrifice the ability to knock you out.
Add that to another reason why I don't think the mask should be a gimme.
@ spekkio: excellent posts. i'd also like to have a more competitive environment which needs a better balance only possibile with as few guessing games as possible.
@papa: no, i certainly wouldn't take the ct loadout all of the time. i'd probably prefer incendiary nades over frag nades (most maps) and phorphorous nades over spytraps on maps with few real bottlenecks/rather open areas. the tazer would also be an attractive choice on maps like orph (against aggro @ bomb places, in front of dorm/class and to stop spies with disc).
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knowing 1 gadget of the opponent's loadout != knowing his habits, it's like saying pt was unbalanced because you know which weapon the mercs got.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:43:42 AM
You really need a lesson in reading comprehension. How the hell did you get from my post that I want people to know each other's equipment? .
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:26:59 AM
The fact that you have to "guess" what your opponent has bad.
Umm, right fucking there? Those two posts completely contradict eachother. That coupled with the fact that you don't support knowing how much of the time your opponent uses MT. Does not compute.
Gawain, those nades aren't even in the game yet. Those were just concepts so you can't assume you would take those gadgets. I am talking about what we have right now, if you make forced gadgets it will be the same gameplay w/ EMF whoring mercs, Camnet whoring and camping mercs, and camo being overused to the point of which you don't even want to use it anymore because it's just boring. And since when did anyone need camo to stay unnoticed? Hmm? I can easily be stealthy w/o camo and just w/ shadows. I don't see it as a MUST HAVE gadget whatsoever, nor do I see camnet as a must have.
Sure they are some ok gadgets at times, but most common loadouts are: Spy - Stickies, Smokes, Chaff or Flash, Heart Beat or Spy Bullets /// Merc - Frags, mines, backpack, gas mask. I don't see camo or camnet replacing these gadgets a whole lot, only on certain maps. Because honestly, they are only useful on a few of them. And if you say that the maps will be like CT's, which you did say, then I foresee them being as useful as they already are: not that useful. I don't want to be forced to bring a gadget I don't even want.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:43:42 AM
For example in CT, if the mercs take camnet, you are going to have a very hard time sneaking about the map without camo. If you ordinarilly play a stealthier playstyle, this means that you're absolutely fucked.
Your only other option is to run around and force the merc not to look into this gadget. If you take camo without the mercs taking camnet, you're going to find its use relatively limited because they can hear you activate it.
I can't count the number of things wrong with this statement. First if you're playing a stealthy style, why aren't you taking camo.
Second, the only reason the mercs can hear camo is because of that EAX bullshit, which won't be in PS.
Quote
Another example is that someone running around and chasing you with uzi + mt on is not going to be affected in the least by flashbangs. You want to have smoke grenades to discourage him from chasing you entirely.
MT isn't a gadget though... so what the hell is your point? If the other team happens to have a playstyle that renders your gadget weaker, that's your problem. If you're a merc who took a tazer against stealth spies, then you can't really expect it to do a hell of a lot. If a merc takes camnet against aggro/rushers, similarly, it won't see much use. I'm not sure why spies are whining that their flashbangs don't do much against motion whores.
Part of this game is knowing your opponents. What if we just allowed mercs to change their equipment while they're dead? So you can, at worst, suicide and grab some more relevant equipment. Or possibly just be able to change at any ammo box. Though if you get rid of a placeable gadget slot, like mines or spytraps, any traps or mines you placed are also removed.
Quote
EDIT: more along those lines, what happens if the merc takes mask and the spies don't have smoke/cams? NOTHING! There really is no huge disadvantage there; the spies have sacrificed an additional way to knockout the mercs (cams) in favor of something else. The thing is that the ability to KO a merc is so powerful that losing it more than makes up for the fact that the mask is rendered relatively useless. This is partly why mercs take mask without even thinking about it. If the spies don't take smoke or cams, so what? You don't really lose anything; in fact, you may have gained something by forcing them to sacrifice the ability to knock you out.
This logic is pretty flawed. If the spies don't take smoke/cams, then you've wasted a gadget slot. It's really that simple. What are you giving up? Spytraps, a backpack, camnet maybe?
The reason mercs take mask as a gimme is because stickies are so incredibly powerful that you need the mask to even compete against them. Mask isn't a "counter" so much as a basic defense. If the mask were truly a good counter, then it would discourage spies from taking smoke or stickies, but spies take them anyway, regardless of if a merc has the mask or not. So really, the mask is not a very good counter gadget at all.
That's what I was thinking invisible^
QuoteI can't count the number of things wrong with this statement. First if you're playing a stealthy style, why aren't you taking camo.
Second, the only reason the mercs can hear camo is because of that EAX bullshit, which won't be in PS.Quote
Well, some of us can actually play a stealthy style without ever needing camo....thanks. Second, if you have camo or not, camnet will find you. I will put money on it that camnet will find you. Thats just how it is, seeing as how it is practically room-based.
And for the record: @Spekkio- I feel that MT not detecting a spy when he is crouched, walking-fast, in camo. is shit (so I guess I agree with you). ESPECIALLY if the camo acts "Predator-like." You could only really not see it if it was not in motion. Camnet pwns over the MT in that aspect. It will see the movement. Did the devs decide that MT wouldn't catch a spy in camo walking crouched in fast-mode? Boo if so.
Quote
Part of this game is knowing your opponents. What if we just allowed mercs to change their equipment while they're dead? So you can, at worst, suicide and grab some more relevant equipment. Or possibly just be able to change at any ammo box. Though if you get rid of a placeable gadget slot, like mines or spytraps, any traps or mines you placed are also removed.
A spy can easily take equipment(eq.) that can counter all merc eq. Equally, a merc can take eq. that can counter any spy eq. We call this balance.
Quote
The reason mercs take mask as a gimme is because stickies are so incredibly powerful that you need the mask to even compete against them. Mask isn't a "counter" so much as a basic defense. If the mask were truly a good counter, then it would discourage spies from taking smoke or stickies, but spies take them anyway, regardless of if a merc has the mask or not. So really, the mask is not a very good counter gadget at all.
If you're not retarded you learn how to use gasmask well, which in turn makes it a very effective counter gadget. Quick-caming is an acquired skill. Maybe even leaving a well-hidden cam. If I'm tracking a spy and know I might be near because he/she has been loud, then you bet you're ass gasmask is ready to go/maybe even already on. This again is balance. I love how inept your points are.
Quote from: Spekkio on October 28, 2007, 01:26:59 AM
The fact that camo is a given might make some people take snares more often
No mate, ppl are just gonna take what they took before and treat camo as a free addition. I dont like this idea. It is heading to the point where you can have everything what you need and screw the rest.
There wont be: "oh dam, what should i take, what will be the best counter, how will my opponents play" anymore. EQ is about decisions which you can regret and not about making the spy a damn "I-Have-All-I-Need" wise guy
you guys don't get the concept of competitive gaming. there is no way of knowing what eq your opponents take and with counter gadgets on both sides it's simply a guessing game with skill making no difference whatsoever.
it's simply impossible to create a balanced map if camnet and camo aren't permanent gadgets. and why do you even bother about making mask a permanent gadget if everone takes it anyways?
i think you guys fear that you with only four left gadget slots there will be the lack of diversity in eq loadouts we have now, but this will not happen with better gadget balance and ph./inc. nades instead of flares.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:29:49 PM
i think you guys fear that you with only four left gadget slots there will be the lack of diversity in eq loadouts we have now, but this will not happen with better gadget balance and ph./inc. nades instead of flares.
Its enough to buff some gadgets, no need to choose for a player. I mean do you realise that we're gonna see camo spies everywhere now ? IMO ppl should have gadgets when they want it, they shouldnt be forced.
And btw I stil think 4 gadgets when everything is balanced is much better than 5. 5 is harder to reach on keyboard, 4 means you must think and not only depend on the gadgets. Hell, im for making this game more difficult.
Quote from: neth on October 28, 2007, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:29:49 PM
i think you guys fear that you with only four left gadget slots there will be the lack of diversity in eq loadouts we have now, but this will not happen with better gadget balance and ph./inc. nades instead of flares.
Its enough to buff some gadgets, no need to choose for a player. I mean do you realise that we're gonna see camo spies everywhere now ? IMO ppl should have gadgets when they want it, they shouldnt be forced.
And btw I stil think 4 gadgets when everything is balanced is much better than 5. 5 is harder to reach on keyboard, 4 means you must think and not only depend on the gadgets. Hell, im for making this game more difficult.
stupid post. you consider deciding on 4 gadgets before the game starts to be more thinking/skill than choosing out or more possible strats against mercs with more possible strats ingame????!!!?!?!!
besides, what about all the balance advantages??
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:29:49 PM
you guys don't get the concept of competitive gaming. there is no way of knowing what eq your opponents take and with counter gadgets on both sides it's simply a guessing game with skill making no difference whatsoever.
The first time you play someone maybe, but CT generally isn't a "play one game and then leave the server" type of game.
After you play someone for a bit, you should get a feel for their style and adjust accordingly.
good players are capable of more than one "style" ffs.
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 02:15:37 PM
Quote from: neth on October 28, 2007, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: Gawain on October 28, 2007, 12:29:49 PM
i think you guys fear that you with only four left gadget slots there will be the lack of diversity in eq loadouts we have now, but this will not happen with better gadget balance and ph./inc. nades instead of flares.
Its enough to buff some gadgets, no need to choose for a player. I mean do you realise that we're gonna see camo spies everywhere now ? IMO ppl should have gadgets when they want it, they shouldnt be forced.
And btw I stil think 4 gadgets when everything is balanced is much better than 5. 5 is harder to reach on keyboard, 4 means you must think and not only depend on the gadgets. Hell, im for making this game more difficult.
stupid post. you consider deciding on 4 gadgets before the game starts to be more thinking/skill than choosing out or more possible strats against mercs with more possible strats ingame????!!!?!?!!
besides, what about all the balance advantages??
1. Its easier to balance when there are less gadgets
2. When you cant fully depend on your eq, you need to concentrate and find other ways to overcome the obstacles
3. Im for making the game much more difficult and it wont happen if you have more gadgets.
People keep talking as if the "free" gadget is going to take something away. Let me make something clear:
You cannot assume that my 5 gadget idea is surely going to be implemented in PS. For all intents and purposes, you have to assume that the current plan is to include 4 gadgets selectable from 8.
no. you guys are turning into Ubi, restricting as to what gadjets we can choose. nothing should be "set" or anything. mabye pre-set, but still avaible to choose.
Now you're being a moron.
Going from CT to 4 selectable gadgets in PS with camo/camnet as gimmes, you now have increased the amount of combinations you can take.
No one is taking any choices away from you. You will still be able to pick 4 gadgets; you just have been given a set 5th one for free.
Quote from: neth on October 28, 2007, 02:51:02 PM
1. Its easier to balance when there are less gadgets
2. When you cant fully depend on your eq, you need to concentrate and find other ways to overcome the obstacles
3. Im for making the game much more difficult and it wont happen if you have more gadgets.
absolutely stupid post
1. it's easier to balance with 4 slots + camnet/camo
2. which obstacles??? i bet you won't be able to find one good example. gadgets need skill to use and more gadgets allow for more adaption to the situation. less gadgets = closer to scda.
3. you told me that you consider yourself as middle skilled... besides, the difficulty depends on the opponents, not on a slot system.
Does anyone think that everyone will just start sitting in corners camping with camnet? I really do, because once they realize that they don't have to be in harms way to patrol areas, they are just going to have camnet camping parties. People are going to need to bring heartbeat just to find the camping mercs, then when they find them they need to be able to neutralize them some way. Most likely they will be sitting in a corner and standing up. So, what are people going to bring? Sticky cams, just to put them to sleep so they don't have to worry about getting seen by camnet.
That will get old, I don't think permanent camnet will be a good idea.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 08:42:11 PM
Does anyone think that everyone will just start sitting in corners camping with camnet? I really do, because once they realize that they don't have to be in harms way to patrol areas, they are just going to have camnet camping parties. People are going to need to bring heartbeat just to find the camping mercs, then when they find them they need to be able to neutralize them some way. Most likely they will be sitting in a corner and standing up. So, what are people going to bring? Sticky cams, just to put them to sleep so they don't have to worry about getting seen by camnet.
That will get old, I don't think permanent camnet will be a good idea.
No, because that's not even how it works when people take camnet as a gadget in CT.
Ummm, yes it does. They find a nice hiding spot and stay there and look through their cam until they find a spy, then attack him. Most of the mercs DO camp with camnet, and you can hardly do anything to them besides flash em or put them to sleep.
That is one of the reasons for making a case for removing camnet altogether.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 08:55:01 PM
Ummm, yes it does. They find a nice hiding spot and stay there and look through their cam until they find a spy, then attack him. Most of the mercs DO camp with camnet, and you can hardly do anything to them besides flash em or put them to sleep.
Ive never seen anyone camping with camnet.
---
Gawain you dont get the point.
You want me to give you an example of obstacles ? - merc.
I dont want to make this another DA. My opinion is that there should be no gadgets for free and If you think it is stupid, well thats your choice. If you say that more gadgets means more tactics possiblities then we pehaps should give ppl all the gadgets... When you have 4 gad. (which is perfect imo) you often have to think harder what to do cause its not enough to solve all your problems. You know what i mean ?
Btw does my skill have anything to do here ? No matter if ppl are noobs or pros they should be able to say what they think and not be dissed.
You've never seen anyone camping with camnet? How long exactly have you been playing?
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 08:55:01 PM
Ummm, yes it does. They find a nice hiding spot and stay there and look through their cam until they find a spy, then attack him. Most of the mercs DO camp with camnet, and you can hardly do anything to them besides flash em or put them to sleep.
I've never seen anyone skilled with camnet go and sit in a corner and wait till he finds a spy. It's easily countered and not that much of a problem. If you're having a lot of trouble with a person camping with camnet, then you need to work on your skill as a spy. Spies cam a camper because it's a free knockout. Anyone that sits with camnet is asking to get cammed.
The main probelm I see with camnet is how much a merc can see it just a couple of seconds while switching through the cameras. He can see someone in digger room, and be in the back of main (near machine) and tell his partner "he's in digger." He doesn't need to camp for that, a quick glance periodically will do the trick.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 09:23:54 PM
You've never seen anyone camping with camnet? How long exactly have you been playing?
hmm let me think...Ive started few months after PT release ?
I always see some merc camping with camnet in aquarius, polar base, and a few other maps. No, it isn't a big problem, but it still happens.
Quote from: Papa Skull on October 28, 2007, 09:52:57 PM
I always see some merc camping with camnet in aquarius, polar base, and a few other maps. No, it isn't a big problem, but it still happens.
both bad examples for camping with camnet.
aqua sux totally and you certainly need no camnet for camping there. camping on polar base is impossible due to the aggro nature of it, but camnet is imba because you can practically see everything, especially where the spies are going from spawn.
the best example for camping with camnet is factory.
Why not talk about camnet on the "Camnet" thread?
You want to know why? Because everyone is trying to prove their point here, which are all retarded right now seeing as how we are really going for the execution of camnet in PS. Keep the criticisms constructive rather than argumentative.
That's why I said "a few other maps" gawain.
And Westfall, we are on topic. This thread is about set eq, and we are talking about camnet being forced, and you know.
I am now for a replacement of camnet. How about a keycard that allows you to access security cams placed around the map? There are little terminals placed around the map that mercs look into to see through the cameras. The cameras will be already moving and mercs can't control their movements. A little light will show up on the camera when mercs are looking through them. This will make spies look for the stationary merc with his back turned ( because he is looking through the terminal ) for the easy kill/neutralization. Mercs can see through EMF and Motion through them.
If spies know that mercs are in security cam, then they know to avoid those areas with terminals. This could lead to a lot of interesting situations and fix a lot of issues with the camnet. ( camping problems ) Maybe we could do some cool shit with it like making spies able to hack into the terminals and let them be able to see through cameras or shut them off altogether ( that would take some time though ). Maybe it would allow spies to see through motion tracker and EMF, which would be pretty cool.
QFE
ah, im sorry. i misunderstood. i thought you were taking away one of the slots, and making one "set" and in "stone".
for the last time, seeing through security cams it totally pointless. get a brain.
Quote from: Gawain on October 29, 2007, 10:52:03 AM
for the last time, seeing through security cams it totally pointless. get a brain.
There's only one reason you'd want to see through security cams, and that's so that you can figure out which one got knocked out in the event of a security failure.
The more and more I think about it, I'm not at all with the idea of seeing through security cams. If you are checking the cams and see a spy, shouldn't the cam go off anyways? Its a waste of time to access the cams because you can already see on your screen where the cam has gone off (unless this is not incorporated in PS).
I say camnet out in replacement of a drone or something.
I retought the idea that seemed to be nice but now i see it is useless
Drone would be nice but camnet - if placed correctly doesnt have to be OP. Maybe we should just leave it as it is.
It wouldn't be useless if it didn't detect spies when not using it. Even if it did, you could still see things that the security cams cannot. Things like out of range spies, sticky cams, spy bullets, alarms snares. Plus you can see which cam was disabled. It would have plenty of uses, more than camnet uses. I don't think you should see where the security failures are in PS, only that there was a failure.
Tell me again how it is useless?!