what about camo more like in tf2?
-totally invisible (except for emf)
-activation and deactivation delay during which you can't attack/use eq
-invisible to mt in crouch speed (OR way longer timer for camo)
-timer a little bit smaller
-slower regeneration of power
-no sound
if it is visible, it should work more like in bf2142:
-blurred appearance (no sharp outline), thus invisible in front of little contrast lightning
-gets more blurry while in motion
-maybe no energy consumption at all, but a static noise
-shorten emf range (70-80% of what it's now should work out fine for the average ct map size)
edit: alternative: keep emf radius, but after switching to emf it takes some seconds to power up thus reaching full range after ~3s. with this change, spies get a chance to react/it avoids switching visions all the time.
i think this boost is not over the top, because with camo as a viable gadget everyone will watch out for it using laser and emf. besides, mt would need no change. in fact, with camo as a permanent gadget mt could work like in pt (instant detection), which i think would be great as it fits better into the combat vision concept if you suspect being attacked generally (+normal post render, of course).
discuss ;D
omg spies in tf2 suck. They turned of team killing so you can check if someone's an imposter just by smacking them across the face with a wrench. Engineers FTW!
/off-topic.
I liked the camo in Crysis, which is quite similar to the one in CT.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on November 04, 2007, 02:47:36 PM
I liked the camo in Crysis, which is quite similar to the one in CT.
i only played the single player demo, so i have no idea how it looks like for other players. can you make screenshots with different distances/backgrounds/lightning/speed?
What's wrong with CT camo?
A simple shader that simulates refraction is all that is needed. You're not supposed to see it, or it's supposed to be hard to see it. Start adding things to the appearance and it becomes even more visible. Not a good idea to pretty it up if we want it to be functional.
Quote from: Overstatement on November 04, 2007, 02:58:14 PM
What's wrong with CT camo?
way too easy to see in mid/close range, eax activation noise bs, no influence on mt, emf whores.
atm the only real use is to help you hiding around corners for grabbing necks (if your enemy doesn't use eax or was in a loud fight), which is just stupid as it's supposed to be a stealth gadget that works best for mid-long range: to cross the fov of the merc/camnet undetected or hide from the patroulling merc if there is no obstacle.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 04, 2007, 03:18:31 PM
A simple shader that simulates refraction is all that is needed. You're not supposed to see it, or it's supposed to be hard to see it. Start adding things to the appearance and it becomes even more visible. Not a good idea to pretty it up if we want it to be functional.
the problem with this is that the outlines are too easy to see this way.
I like the ideas.
Quote from: Gawain on November 04, 2007, 03:20:02 PMthe problem with this is that the outlines are too easy to see this way.
This has no bearing on PS camo. CT is an older engine and uses less complex shaders. I played with the distortion shaders in Roboblitz and it produces far superior results to older version of the engine.
CT had no FSAA which will also make a difference in how easy it is to spot the outline of camo. Force a 16x pass of FSAA manually through your videocard config and check out camo. It becomes considerably less visible. Visible yes, but less.
Quote from: Gawain on November 04, 2007, 02:53:10 PM
Quote from: Gui Brazil on November 04, 2007, 02:47:36 PM
I liked the camo in Crysis, which is quite similar to the one in CT.
i only played the single player demo, so i have no idea how it looks like for other players. can you make screenshots with different distances/backgrounds/lightning/speed?
I was referring myself to the camo from the single player demo and I agree with Binary here, the visual look of it shouldn't differ so much fom CT's one. We might change what it does (not getting caught on mt, no sound on activation or w/e) but i don't think we should go all nuts on the appearance of it.
It's obvious that camo is supposed to be used at longer ranges, given the fact that it has an activation noise and that you are not 100% invisible.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is being able to hear it almost anywhere on the map.
I say:
-No activation sound (you could only hear it with EAX before anyway, which was bullshit)
-Total invisibility while not moving
-Partial invisibility while moving, with visibility becoming more obvious the faster you move.
I think reducing the noise produced is the only thing that certainly needs doing. How effective camo is will have a massive effect on gameplay, so i feel the only way to decide a lot of these idea's is to play test them. That stage is still a long way off from what i can see.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 04, 2007, 04:33:07 PM
It's obvious that camo is supposed to be used at longer ranges, given the fact that it has an activation noise and that you are not 100% invisible.
The only thing that needs to be fixed is being able to hear it almost anywhere on the map.
camo is way too easy to see in medium distance.
example: steel squat, merc on balcony of living room, spy with activated camo in the middle of the yard. imo one shouldn't be able to see him...
the only map camo has some use is factory (and polar perhaps).
emf whoring is considered far worse than mt whoring by good players. emf ghosting (at least without zoom) is terrible for the gameplay, and so is it's range. you should need to use the laser for detection purposes in medium-long distance, and you should need to sieve the ceiling with bullets if you suspect a spy on it.
on the other hand, emf should be able too detect electronic devices like sticky cams behind objects and walls way better (more transparent objects plz).
My favorite camo is from halo 3 ( no I'm not just a fanboy ). You are pretty much invisible, but when you start to perform actions or shoot your camo starts to fade and you become more visible. I think when you are moving while crouching you should still be relatively hidden, but as visible as CT camo is. When you aren't moving you are pretty much invisible. When you are running, you camo starts to fade and you become more visible. Of course it would still use a battery...
Lets leave camo make you totally invisible, but :
Camo lasts 5 seconds when you run. Lasting time grows when your speed lowers. When your crouching in slow mode camo lasts 20 seconds, and not moving 30. Times are just off the top of my head so dont flame.
Camo also would make you not detectable on MT while crouch running, slow crouching AND walking.
That's just what i suggested in the other thread.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on November 05, 2007, 12:11:57 AM
Lets leave camo make you totally invisible, but :
Camo lasts 5 seconds when you run. Lasting time grows when your speed lowers. When your crouching in slow mode camo lasts 20 seconds, and not moving 30. Times are just off the top of my head so dont flame.
Camo also would make you not detectable on MT while crouch running, slow crouching AND walking.
That's just what i suggested in the other thread.
in terms of times you have to consider if the spy would be:
crouched not moving to crouched moving
standing not moving to standing moving
crouched not moving to standing moving
crouched not moving to standing moving to crouched moving to not moving at all....
now apply slow walk (standing/crouched) as opposed to normal walk(standing/crouched)
Times would have to adjust accordingly to the several different possibilities. I don't know if some1 could create a seperate program that does all of these possibilites and then apply it to the game. Don't really know how plausible this is.
I think running should dispel camo instantly, it can be hard enough to avoid being necked from an aggro fight without the possiblity that the spy can camo and be impossible to see. I know emf will still work but a chaff will sort that, and a smoke nade will make it impossible to see a spy.
I think the camo should be complete glass (distortion shader) when not moving, but bounce/reflect a little light (specular) to a very small extent when moving(fast?).
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 04, 2007, 03:45:34 PM
CT had no FSAA which will also make a difference in how easy it is to spot the outline of camo. Force a 16x pass of FSAA manually through your videocard config and check out camo. It becomes considerably less visible. Visible yes, but less.
wont people who turn down their AA be able to spot them , like an exploit ?
I want the camo to turn you 100% invisible with no refraction when you remain still for a little while, the faster your move the more it shows until your running and it just looks like a normal spy running away.
i like the idea of energy consumption and visibility based on speed:
-close: static=>slightely visible, crouching=>obvious
-mid distance: static=>invisible, crouching=>slightely visible (+within emf range)
-far away: crouching=>invisible, running=>slightely visible (maybe strong blurry effect against snipers; mt detects running)
battery consumption time while crouching should be a little less than we got in ct, but should last 2*longer while not in motion.
im not sure about the noise. imo camo should only be used in medium-max distance to hide from a patroulling merc, pass his fov or bypass camnet. if you agree, we could give camo a very decent permanent noise like in bf2142 (but lower volume and no eax bs).
Quote from: Xan on November 05, 2007, 12:32:12 AM
I think running should dispel camo instantly, it can be hard enough to avoid being necked from an aggro fight without the possiblity that the spy can camo and be impossible to see. I know emf will still work but a chaff will sort that, and a smoke nade will make it impossible to see a spy.
Yeah, I agree. Running and camo should not mix. It would be way too dangerous.
Quote from: reason3d on November 05, 2007, 02:41:54 AM
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 04, 2007, 03:45:34 PM
CT had no FSAA which will also make a difference in how easy it is to spot the outline of camo. Force a 16x pass of FSAA manually through your videocard config and check out camo. It becomes considerably less visible. Visible yes, but less.
wont people who turn down their AA be able to spot them , like an exploit ?
Perhaps, but that was more to illustrate the difference that just FSAA can make when applied to an old shader in an old engine. This is a top notch engine with highly configurable shaders that will help counter attempts at things like that. You can also turn down your resolution to make camo more obvious. People who want to cheat will find something. Can't do much about it except do our best to prevent it.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 05, 2007, 08:05:31 PM
Perhaps, but that was more to illustrate the difference that just FSAA can make when applied to an old shader in an old engine. This is a top notch engine with highly configurable shaders that will help counter attempts at things like that. You can also turn down your resolution to make camo more obvious. People who want to cheat will find something. Can't do much about it except do our best to prevent it.
Wouldn't turning your resolution down make camo less obvious?
No it makes the distortion very jagged and obvious.