Project Stealth

Moving maps would be interesting!  Like say there is a mission on a cargo ship and there are cranes constantly moving boxes and containers.  You could hop on one of the boxes and it would take you up somewhere else, idk.  Or maybe the cargo ship is actually moving and it has a propellor room with huge rods spinning.  What if there was a better warehouse map ( that was balanced and better for story ) with a bunch of conveyor belts that are always moving.  The boxes on top of them would provide cover and what not.  I just think that maps that are more alive would make it a much more enjoyable experience.

Interactive maps.  I think that there should be more emphasis on maps.  If you look at factory, hacks totally affect the map and the way it is at the moment.  Like the bulldozer hack and how it demolishes a wall and makes another hack more accessible.  Make maps more alive.  Example:  You can push a button on top of warehouse to make the conveyor belt to start moving.  I love things like this in maps.  Pushing a button and making a box drop on Aqua isn't enough.  I think you should emphasize the way maps are affected by interactivity.

Since you are remaking Club House, a few things you could think about are:

•   Make the window in the back able to be shattered or opened, instead of having it already opened.
•   If you shoot the cabinets in the top floor hallways the lockers open.

Just cool little things like that would make experiences vary a lot and be better.
Anyone else?  Discussion...

I'd like to emphasize that we're not remaking Club House.

i guess everyone would like more interactive maps.
the conveyor belt idea is pretty good (airport, warehouse,...)
good examples can be found on factory and steel squat.
some brainstorming on the subject:
-water bucket that can be pushed over to create a conductive surface for tazer and ss
-sprinkler controls
-automatic security doors connected to map security like in pt museum
-bomb objective blows up a hole in the wall
-more pan-moving cams
-more different floor surfaces with different properties (sand, snow => footsteps; carpet => less noise)
-moving objects that can set off mt like wind in trees (garden after roof hack), rats etc
-candle lights that lapse when a window is opened/sprinklers start/nades explode
-....

All is possible. Depends on the map makers and the time they have.

No club House?  I thought that was said multiple times?  Hmmmm, never mind then.  But I guess you guys can start fresh and make more exciting maps.  Hopefully more interactive, moving, alive maps.  Anymore ideas?

I always like a 'changing' environment. Whether that was opening up new paths with explosions, moving items or just a lot of different hacks that change the map around. Ct was really limited in what we could do, since they stripped out so freaking much.

Anyway, as for PS, its a balancing act of making the level 'interactive' but still balanced and fun. Throwing a bunch of crap in just for the sake of throwing crap isn't ever a good idea and if it comes between making a map static, but functioning and balanced or interactive, but buggy and unbalanced; the obvious choice is the static map.

Anyway, the first map we release isn't going to be very interactive since its more or less the testing grounds for overall game balance. But once we get the basics down, the rest of the maps can get increasingly interactive.

I've always wanted a map on a moving train... hmmm

DOH! I forgot to mention a train.  I loved that mission on PT sooo much.  One of the best missions from all of splinter cell.

What about a jungle level?  Like on PT the indonesian single player mission, but pimped out with new graphics and lighting would be awesome.

What about making deep pools of water?  Possibly that mercs and spies can swim in?  This would make levels a lot more deep and just plain awesome.

It would be really cool if things happen depending on the percentage of a hack. For example, the lights dim down according to pirate hack percentage in Aqua with 100% at lights off.

I made one for CT that was 2 moving trams on a large track that looped. Problem was making a mover that large kept crashing the game. Might be able to make it work in the new engine though.

Edit: I told Nosis about it and he actually figured out a way to make it work using clipping. Problem with that is there was no way to make stations for the trains to stop at. And the train cars were movers so you couldn't place mines etc. I had to discard the map and started on Deep Sea Bunker which I also quit working on because no one could find a way to make vertex animation work which was required to make the map the way I wanted. When there is time I may remake the Deep Sea Bunker for PS.

Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 10, 2007, 06:28:55 AM
I made one for CT that was 2 moving trams on a large track that looped. Problem was making a mover that large kept crashing the game. Might be able to make it work in the new engine though.

Edit: I told Nosis about it and he actually figured out a way to make it work using clipping. Problem with that is there was no way to make stations for the trains to stop at. And the train cars were movers so you couldn't place mines etc. I had to discard the map and started on Deep Sea Bunker which I also quit working on because no one could find a way to make vertex animation work which was required to make the map the way I wanted. When there is time I may remake the Deep Sea Bunker for PS.

The way you should have done it was to make the train a staticmesh and the terrain and everything arround it move or just slapped a panning texture on the mesh surround the train. Nothing would be movers and that would have been the best way to do it, performance wise.

If you still have the map ed file, mind sending it my way so I can take a gander see?

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 10, 2007, 02:30:19 AM

What about a jungle level?  Like on PT the indonesian single player mission, but pimped out with new graphics and lighting would be awesome.

+ night, rain and thunders.

Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 10, 2007, 06:28:55 AM
I made one for CT that was 2 moving trams on a large track that looped. Problem was making a mover that large kept crashing the game. Might be able to make it work in the new engine though.

Edit: I told Nosis about it and he actually figured out a way to make it work using clipping. Problem with that is there was no way to make stations for the trains to stop at. And the train cars were movers so you couldn't place mines etc. I had to discard the map and started on Deep Sea Bunker which I also quit working on because no one could find a way to make vertex animation work which was required to make the map the way I wanted. When there is time I may remake the Deep Sea Bunker for PS.

Like zed said, the best way to have done this was to make the enviorment move as much as possible, and not the train itself. However, if you had to move the train a bit, you should have used a SGamePlayObject and attatched it to the mover. I think mines can placed on that.

Also, I figured out how to import vertex animation in CT, so you can continue your map. :D However, importing vertex animation in UE3 is a different story. lol

What if you could change the weather and lighting of maps?  Like before the game starts you can toggle whether it is raining or foggy or whatever.  And you can change whether it is sunset, nightime, morning, or day.  Wouldn't that be tight?  You would have to change your strategy to a different style even though it is the same map.  Like if it's day on a jungle level, you can't really rely on darkness anymore.  Instead, you have to rely on using cover, foliage, and timing to keep moving.  And if it's foggy outside, you know that if you keep distance from mercs and don't use visions, you are invisible.  Is changing weather possible on Unreal Engine 3?  I hope so, that would be wicked.

That would only change the gameplay if we have maps that are outside.

No, we could also change lighting conditions on inside maps to a desired brightness right?  Like make all the lights turn off, or dim, or be even brighter.  And we will have maps that are outside right?  Think of how different polar would be in the daytime with a lot of fog!  That would actually be pretty cool huh?

Except that the spies would always want night and the mercs day..

Well yeah, but think about it.  Everyone will start to get tired of the maps.  If we have all of these variations then the way we change our strategy will change a lot.  This would leave the player with fresh senses of gameplay every time that they play a map on a different setting.  Outside maps would work much better for these kinds of variations, with all of the options of toggling weather and daytime and stuff.

To the developers:

Would it be possible for maps to have variations (built right into the map)?

I'm not talking about whole new rooms or anything, just like toggleable map switches, similar to PT's random static defense, only this would be player chooseable.

So for instance a map might offer a merc a series of switches he can change in the lobby that alters the maps parameters. A switch might close/open a given vent or door, or choose between a laser grid or a camera system, or something like that. Is it possible to build this type of switch into a map given that it's just a mod? Does the Unreal mapper allow that sort of thing?

Papa skull, even if they were making a map similar to clubhouse they probably wouldnt be allowed to say that they have similarities because UBI would eat them alive. :p

IF any of you played Ghost Recon 2 Summit Strike do you remember bunker hill?  It was a great map and you could change it between night time and daytime.  Everytime that I played it felt so fresh to me.  That reason is because the lighting can make you switch up your strategy.  When I played it on daytime I would always use trees/bushes/rocks for hiding and move between them.  On nighttime, I found a dark spot with cover over it and sniped from there or I would get a big turret and set myself up in a nice bush and go prone.  From there I would move along the shadows and look out for movement.

THat was just an example of how much lighting could make the experience better.  Variations makes the gameplay vary a ton, and could make the maps that much better.  I would also like the toggle able built in map variations like Invisible suggested. 

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 10, 2007, 07:20:36 PM
Well yeah, but think about it.  Everyone will start to get tired of the maps.  If we have all of these variations then the way we change our strategy will change a lot.  This would leave the player with fresh senses of gameplay every time that they play a map on a different setting.  Outside maps would work much better for these kinds of variations, with all of the options of toggling weather and daytime and stuff.

It wouldnt work, ppl would argue all the time. Besides this game is about hiding in shadows. Is it possible during the day ? No, it would force you to play aggro. Is it fair for stealthy players ? NO

chat example:

spy1: map "jungle night" plz
merc1: why night, i wanna day
spy1: we stand no chance when you set it to day
merc1: lol, rofl, its because youre noobs
spy1: FU

etc. NO THX  ;)

Well I see what you mean.  Maybe a voting system would be a better choice then.  But daytime wouldn't make you go aggro, you just hide behind cover and obstacles.  Plus fog and daytime would help you be a little more invisible right?

Vote results:

Night:
spy1, spy2

Day:
merc1, merc2


I don't think so. However, if you made it balanced so that all options have both advantages and disadvantages for both teams, it'd be an option.

You could make the day/night random? That way the only abuse it can recieve is the host lobbying until he gets day. In the end it's not worth the hassle in my opinion. The only suggestion I can think of that can't be messed with is after X objectives are taken the time of day would change but I don't even think that's possible.

Hmmm.  Is weather toggling still a possibility?

Make it change to day/night after half of the time given to the spies is out.

That'd just result in the spies waiting 5 minutes for night..

Or going fast in the first 5 minutes

what i don't wanna see is lightning changing in time-lapse (from noon to midnight in 10 min).
a sunset would both be good athmosphere and for the gameplay, as it gives the spies a little advantage towards the end of the game when less objectives are left. on the other side, it helps the mercs during the first minutes where rushs are more likely.

What's with the sudden day and night obsession? Sounds like just a big complication to me. Let the map makers set the time of day when ever they feel like. It's not like having a sun out there is a new thing, museum was set at sunset.

Yes, but it would add a lot of variation to the way you play the maps each time.  Say there is a map in the dark.  You use shadows and sneak through it.  Say it's the same map at daytime.  You would use cover and timing to advance rather than just shadows. 

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 11, 2007, 07:32:44 PM
Yes, but it would add a lot of variation to the way you play the maps each time.  Say there is a map in the dark.  You use shadows and sneak through it.  Say it's the same map at daytime.  You would use cover and timing to advance rather than just shadows. 

What game have you been playing? You always need good timing and cover, you're just removing the few times when shadows do actually hide you.

Idea of day/night chaning sux hard.

Lets make environments TOTALLY interactive: get in vechicles, move things, integrate full physics, give the spy explosives (c4) so they can break through walls and here you have it: the noob game of the year.

That's not what I fucking meant by interactive you smart ass. 

I was just saying for toggle able map options you should be able to adjust the setting that it is in.  Not just Day/night, but weather and atmosphere.

that may be hard to balance.

i think toggable stuff is so hard to balance and hard to implement that it's easier to make an entire different map for sake of variety.

True Gawain, maybe that is the better choice.  In that case, I would like a lot more variations in the atmospheres of maps.  Weather like thunder and lightning, raining, foggy, snowing, windy ( may have effects on projectiles ) etc...

In the map I'd make in question, it will be more "old school" in that it doesn't have wildly innovative interactivity.

Quote from: Kok4f4n on November 11, 2007, 08:41:02 PM
Lets make environments TOTALLY interactive: get in vechicles, move things, integrate full physics, give the spy explosives (c4) so they can break through walls and here you have it: the noob game of the year.

Ain't this sarcasm?

I agree with Spekkio - the maps should be like the PT ones, and tweak the gameplay abit so it's halfway up to CT... also the nightvision should be grey and blurry like in PT.
IIRC, the PT Hud was more hi-tech than th CT one, so PS should go that way.

AND!!! i just have an idea!!!
Let the spies do a coop humiliation move on the mercs!!!
Say one spy grabs the merc, and the other spy takes the mercs gun and blasts the mercs head off. The gun goes offline (doesnt work) since the mercs vital signals stop, and we're all happy.

Don't twist my words: I have no problem with making interactivity, so long as it enhances gameplay. I agree fully with what Zedblade said: you have to do everything in moderation. There are literally a half dozen CT custom maps that try to do too much in a single map at the expense of balance, and therefore nobody plays them.

Quote from: Kok4f4n on November 11, 2007, 11:56:42 PM

Quote from: Kok4f4n on November 11, 2007, 08:41:02 PM
Lets make environments TOTALLY interactive: get in vechicles, move things, integrate full physics, give the spy explosives (c4) so they can break through walls and here you have it: the noob game of the year.

Ain't this sarcasm?

I agree with Spekkio - the maps should be like the PT ones, and tweak the gameplay abit so it's halfway up to CT... also the nightvision should be grey and blurry like in PT.
IIRC, the PT Hud was more hi-tech than th CT one, so PS should go that way.

AND!!! i just have an idea!!!
Let the spies do a coop humiliation move on the mercs!!!
Say one spy grabs the merc, and the other spy takes the mercs gun and blasts the mercs head off. The gun goes offline (doesnt work) since the mercs vital signals stop, and we're all happy.

Im afraid this game is gonna be far different from CT, so creating maps basing on it could be a mistake.

That Coop humiliation move made me laugh my ass off. Hopefully down the road when there is time we can do something like that  :D

What about an official teabagging humiliation move?  ;D

west and i were making a map a long time ago based off a pub/fancy restaurant we both worked at (well i got fired....)

i like that idea, and i still have all the pics i took of it. it was built in an old (correct me if i'm wrong here) 1700's house... well renovated really.

my big interactive ideas included a meat locker much like the task disk in aqua, a thunder storm that would knock the power out at a given point in the game, and the ability to set part of the map on fire via the many fire places in the map.

i was also thinking it'd be cool if the storm knocked tree branches through the windows and stuff through out the match... just random environmental sounds and distractions that would help the spy be a little more stealthy.

the location was really awesome though... PM me if any map makers would like to see the pics  ;D

Yea, it was built in 1789..old place...George Washingotn and Thomas Jefferson stayed there when it was a hotel....now its a restaurant...who knew...creepy fuckin place at night..

creepy maps like orphanage but better would be sweet.  It would be like FEAR for the mercs lol

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 12, 2007, 07:27:18 AM
creepy maps like orphanage but better would be sweet.  It would be like FEAR for the mercs lol

I think there should be darker maps that require more stealth in them. This might make games more intense.

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 12, 2007, 07:27:18 AM
creepy maps like orphanage but better would be sweet.  It would be like FEAR for the mercs lol

Orphanage ain't that creepy. Rush to the next floor before the mercs can catch up and you win.

Quote from: Spekkio on November 12, 2007, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 12, 2007, 07:27:18 AM
creepy maps like orphanage but better would be sweet.  It would be like FEAR for the mercs lol

Orphanage ain't that creepy. Rush to the next floor before the mercs can catch up and you win.

Sad but true

Just the map itself is creepy.  Not how it plays.  Those dim lamps really set the creepy mood there. 

hmm to prevent the spies from doing that hmm how about by having restrictions on certain maps so you cant be all aggro  , but to use stealth ie. orph

Wow!  After playing COD 4 I really want to sneak around in a ghille suit lol!!!  That was a tight ass mission if you know what I'm talking about.  Pretty much a ghille is a suit with a bunch of shrubbery on it to help you blend in with foliage.  Not suggesting that it should be implemented into this at all but it would be cool to see a game that was fully devoted to using that kind of camoflauge. 

That being said a jungle mission, night or day, is possible imo.  You could give the spies ghille suits, but you wouldn't have to.  Spies could rely on cover and foliage to sneak around.  I really would like this with some rain and lightning.  Anyone else want a jungle mission?

My Map Wanted List:

Jungle Map
Train Map - Moving Train
Creepy Maps - Make mercs piss their pants and spies use shadows more often
Hangar Map or Airport - Has Parked planes with objectives inside
Construction Yard Map - Has cranes constantly moving things and changing the map
Cargo Ship - Possibly moving
White House Map - Would be cool hacking into the oval office
Warehouse Map - Has conveyor belts that can be turned off and on, moving boxes provide cover
Mercenary Stronghold - A lot of security and air vents
Carnival - I don't know it would be cool to sneak around in a big carnival tent lol

All I can think of right now, I'll come up with some more later.


All of the maps should have a good amount of interactivity that give the gameplay variation but keep it balanced. 

Airport sounds fun. Im gonna try that it UE.

Perhaps we could say more about our map concepts and ideas we have. If some of you have some sketches in mind it would be cool to show them here so we can talk about details. Also it could help the map makers to feel what we mean


I have this idea:

map: Snow Prison
weather: heavy snow, night
location: North-West coast of Norway, abandoned prison, built in 1930-1940s. The prison was used by Nazis during the war and was finished by them when they took control over Norwegy. It was used to hold and interrogate ally high officers captured during fights. It was known as the place where many people lost their lives in a very cruel way. It was abandoned after the war because of its history and bad weather conditions. Its condition is 3/4 well with 1/4 half-ruined.
As said it is located on top of the cliff on coast. The cliff is not very high tho. From the opposite side there is a road leading to prison but spies dont use it because of heavy guard and expectations of mercs.
The spies get to the location by water and they begin on a very small beach-like, rocky ground.
To get to the place they need to climb up - several ways. When they do it, theres a wall in which there are few passes. There also may be some cooping ways.
Behind the wall there is a courtyard with obstacles on it behind which spies can hide. They are important because mercs see most of courtyard and can snipe from windows - and perhaps tower. They cant launch nades tho, cause there are bars in windows.

2nd part:

After running through the courtyard spies get to the wall. There are doors but constantly closed, so mercs cant ever access the courtyard. Thats also 2nd spawn for spies (orph style). There are many ways to go from there, I wont exactly say what location of which rooms should be on this map but I can name some areas.

Cells

One of the areas is a long corridor. On one side of it you can see cells. There are 2 floors of cells. Its a bit  lightened. The light of moon gets through windows located oppositely to cells, you can see falling snow. Some of the panes are broken. There are no windows inside the cells. Some of them are empty, in some you can see beds, theres a mess. Also the corridor isnt clear. There are random objects not placed as they should be. Walls are mostly grey. You can see dampness and mould. Wall tiles fall off. Between some cells there are connections. Some holes lead to the sewer system and then to other rooms. In few cells spies can put explosive devices which will destroy the wall and create a passage to other rooms. There is also a way to close some of the cells using a ledge, not everyone of them, its broken. They open automatically after about 15 sec. Its important cause if you could close them for no time, it would be too easy to realise that spies are in the room - cells would be opened by them then. When you close a cell, you cant throw a nade into it. It makes a difference when trying to get rid of expl. device, merc has to snipe it in that case or spend time to open cells, which can be closed by another spy using ledge on the 2nd end of corridor - ledges are located on both sides of corridor. When merc gets caught, he has to call his partner or wait till cells open. Same with spies. Theres no passive defence here - no reason for it.

I know im rubbish at drawing, but just wanted to show you how i see it.

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pris003xu7.jpg

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg219.imageshack.us%2Fimg219%2F7300%2Fpris003xu7.th.jpg&hash=be2a88adf23539ad1006258f017e809fccd56d45) (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pris003xu7.jpg)


3rd part:

Death Chamber

Another zone is divided into 2 rooms, theyre med size. One of them is a death chamber. There is a single electric chair standing on a small platform. In the room there is also a spot where you can see 1 ledge and 1 small old-looking hacking panel. Behind the chair, theres a objective-hacking device.
Electric chair stands frontly to the big pane behind which there is 2nd room in which you can see chairs standing. In past they were used by executions spectators. There may be some other objects in the room. The glass cannot be fully destroyed-broken but when the merc shoots, (only) single sniper bullets can go through. This is the idea: When spies want to hack objective in a death chamber they can do 2 things:
pull the ledge (described above), so the curtain falls and its impossible to see what is happening there. If a merc is pro, he usually will know where the objective is and he can try to snipe spy's head from the other side of pane, when he is hacking. Its possible because in hacking position 1/2 of spy's head is sticking out from behind of chair. But thats not all. Spies can also hack the old-looking panel so the electricity goes to the chair for about 30 sec. This gives 2 advantages to spies: 1st: It makes the EMF go insane, flashing merc when hes trying to look in chair's direction. Spies can use their  2nd vision so they see if merc is coming without being afraid that he can turn emf and snipe them easily while theyre on thermal. They can also use camo (or nightvision e.g.). Ofc if merc is a pro he can also try to snipe spy without any vision.
2nd effect of hacking the chair is that electric things start to behave weird in a building (or its part).
As for now, i mainly thought about blasting electric bulbs. They can also start blinking slowly (You could see this effect in a "Green Mile" movie.) Hacking this, could also somehow affect passive defence or other things - but its a task for map creator when balancing it. When you hack objective it could turn lights on map partially.

here's a drawing of that room:

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg219.imageshack.us%2Fimg219%2F5273%2Fchamber005lp9.th.jpg&hash=dd46cb5cbe695d4a4867eb2b83c3759acda6bcce) (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chamber005lp9.jpg)

4th part:

The morgue


Another objective room. Its not very big. you can see beds covered with dirty, old sheets. This room can be compared to orph's classroom. Beds are placed similarly to desks. At walls you can see closets with doors for bodies. In the room there are also empty tables. Objective is located somewhere on back.


Kitchen

Long tables for prisoners and a counter behind which you can see big ovens, cauldrons and other kitchen stuff. Everything looks very old and untidy.

Ideas for other zones:

solitaries, attic

It's good, continue.

Mind that the spawn shouldn't take too long.

Quote from: frvge on November 15, 2007, 07:10:34 PM
Mind that the spawn shouldn't take too long.

I believe no spawn should be any further than Orphanage's one.

Quote from: Spekkio on November 12, 2007, 07:45:50 AM

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 12, 2007, 07:27:18 AM
creepy maps like orphanage but better would be sweet.  It would be like FEAR for the mercs lol

Orphanage ain't that creepy. Rush to the next floor before the mercs can catch up and you win.

That has nothing to do with atmosphere. How the map plays and it's atmosphere and ambiance are two completely different things. Orphanage is one of my favorite maps because of it's excellent atmosphere and mood. Just because you wanna rush through it for game play reason's doesn't diminish the fact it's a creepy map.

orphanage is one of the maps with the best athmosphere. i also love the athmosphere of cinema, hospital and scherm. what all of these maps have in common is the fact that they are way darker and play with the lighting.

 I made a diagram of an example of what a jungle map could look like.  Read my description!! 

Description:

  Dark outside, lots of dense foliage.  Lightning and rain are the weather condition.  The green represents area of dense scrubs and bushes.  The white is just areas with no foliage and rather dirt and bright lights.  From the spies spawns there are underground tunnels or passageways that lead to the middle tower and both objective bases.  You can hop over the wall and sneak through trees and darkness or use tunnels to get somewhere faster. 

Inside the 2 bases each have 1 terminal and 1 disc.  Each base has multiple ways to sneak in ( vents, doors, coop spots ) and they each have 2 floors.  To get to the disc on the upper level, either use stairs or do a coop move from the outside into one of the windows.  The terminals are directly below the discs, but can only be accessed by infiltrating the bottom floor, which would be pretty hard to do depending on mercenary skill level.  The middle tower has a bomb objective, if you bomb it, all the lights in the bases go out.  The lights outside flicker on and off and get pretty dim.   There are a few ziplines, indicated by red lines.  Mercs spawn pretty much on either side of the middle tower in little huts like the ones found on Polar Base.

Remember that mercs aren't limited to using the lit pathways, they can always go searching in the dark jungle area, but it isn't always a great idea.

For sake of balance you could add a terminal either at the bottom of the middle tower or between the two bases in some foliage cover.  This is just a diagram remember, you could change a lot about it.  You could add a few buildings between the merc spawn and the base near it.

So what do ya think?  Anyone want to post their ideas of possible maps?

(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxs221.xs.to%2Fxs221%2F07465%2Fsvmmap.png&hash=49deb2643d4ef16ebe15d95bd0b7c85831820b21)

When you bombed a tower it would be very hard to secure objective. Its easy to block stairs i think.

Quote from: neth on November 16, 2007, 08:44:07 AM
When you bombed a tower it would be very hard to secure objective. Its easy to block stairs i think.

well you can always have an elevator. Which I assume you'd need anyway if you wanted it to be a true tower. If the merc has to climb tons of stairs, it'd be almost impossible for him.

Well you could make the top objectives exposed so they can be sniped from outside the tower, but make the lower bombing spots hidden behind the walls and unexposed.

I think interactivity is an important part of any game and certainly something a game like Project Stealth could do with some more of, but I also think that when you get too focused on it with a game like this you can go overkill, for example the Splinter Cell we know and love (up until CT, most of us) is all about freedom to do stealth your way, now interactivity is good at times but say you've got alot of options, alot of people might get set about trying to change the map too much, interactivity is creative if you use it wisely but if you have too much of it, I people wont use their creative minds as much and that's something I beleive the team wants to do :P.

If you have more options than you can be more creative.  I don't get the logic of your post.

To a limit you have more creativity yes, but if you have too much the game is doing too much of the creative side of playing for you in my opinion, it's hard to explain :P.

i think i get what he means. for example, you usually have to hack digger (factory) or crane (steel) at some point in the game so it's basically not more creativity than to find the right time to hack and probably have your teammate covering you while hacking.

Well that's sort of a different subject.  The maps should have a good level of interactivity, but not too much to the point where you rely on it or it makes the game suffer. 


Anyone else have an opinion on my jungle map?

im being scitzo between maps, im just getting used to unreal editor and I've made the tower in the middle, its more like a warehouse though but its quite high with a balcony for mercs. :P
I liked the idea of a forest between the bases, it reminded me of when a stranger calls and her fear of running into the woods, just like a merc being afraid the spy is gonna lynch him...

exactly, I was thinking of that movie too lol.  I just think with foliage there are endless places to hide.  And that coupled with camo could make you pretty much invisible in the forest.

it shouldn't get too big, and there should be no vents (especially from spawn) to the camps.
what i really like is the idea of a forest, offering lots of possibilities for hide and seek etc.

Maybe the vents should lead to exits somewhere in the forest areas, like a hole or something.  Maybe they shouldnt' be vents either, instead they should be like tunnels that have been dug through the dirt and ground.  Actually they should probably lead just outside of the wall, think deftech.  Not saying that deftech was good but it had the same tunnel leading underneath the wall kind of idea.  And yeah that's what I was saying about foliage, endless hiding spots.

Wow I just thought of an awesome action scenario for jungle action.  Say a merc chases a spy into a forest area.  Then the merc uses his torchlight on all the bushes and trees and sees some movement.  The spy turns on his camo and walks a 10 feet away from the merc.  Then he hits an area where the rain is hitting him and he isn't underneath the cover of a tree anymore.  The camo suit shorts out and the merc sees him attempting to get away.  Then the merc chases him into the base which is in a more office sort of environment. 

Just some thoughts I had about how jungle action would work is all.  I like how the environment setting could change a lot and quickly in this sort of map, more variety.

Do you guys have anything to say about the way the map is designed?  Personally I think that urban buildings coupled with jungle areas would be tight.  Think of far cry.  The way urban buildings flow so beatifully with foliage and the outdoors would be cool in a game like this.

Love your map design, maybe there should be a few spotlights on top of the middle tower? I think it would be extremely cool to have a minimum amount of lit areas, one merc on tower, one at ground and both swapping at different times, or they could just keep their position the whole match, I think it would be EXTREMELY cool to have someone frantically using the spotlights on the middle tower to help their confused partner defend the creepy jungle, and possibly make it so when you detach from a spotlight it still stays on and lights up where you have it, making a possibility to snipe from that area. Plus the idea with multiple spotlights is so mercs wouldn't have to take ages spinning all the way round with a spotlight, they could have multiple ones around the tower and in the middle there could be a hole with a ladder there :P.

I mean imagine how cool it would be to have the mercs chasing your partner and then snapping the neck of the spotlight merc and lighting somewhere else up, possibly somewhere you WANT lit up to see what's happening there, etc. I also think you could have ziplines from the tower to all the objectives, since it would be a hard thing to do, climb up a tower with a merc who could look down at any second, it would make the prospect more rewarding if an easy solution to the objectives is up there too.

Plus maybe spys could have the oppurtunity to shut down the spotlights in a certain part of the match, but then be at the risk of lighting up the lower level lights, that's something they would have to make a very tactical decision about depending on their style, what do you think?

Spotlight idea is great.  I already have 2 ziplines going from the tower to the objective bases.    Hopefully it would be easy enough to get to the tower as a spy so you don't have a merc just camping on top of it the whole time.  What if a tunnel led right underneath the tower?  That could work.  Possibly when you bomb the tower the spotlights turn off.  I forgot to say that the green lines on the towers are poles that spies can climb up.  They are positioned so that spies aren't so hidden when they attempt to climb them and they can go through the vents connected to the poles if they are discovered. 

Nice yeah :P. But if a Merc is busy using spotlights he's not gonna be watching his back. What if there was a ladder up the middle like I said, but holes in the wall at the side of the ladder you could climb into, so say the mercanary uses his flashlight down the hole the ladder brings you up through, you can climb into a hole either side of you so he can't see you, but these holes could be blocked by defualt, and once you hack something they are open to use, the holes would have to be spaced out too so you can't just climb into one all the time :P.

Sounds good so far? Well I got another idea, say you had a level based extraction type gameplay like Orphanage in CT, once you have the last disk or whatever, a Forest Fire starts, as you roll and scramble your way back through the Forest, lots of trees would be lit up in flames as Mercs frantically chase you trying to stop you climbing over the wall to safety, that would own ass :D.

Papa Skull are you making this level on UE now?

No I am not creating this because I lack the skill and equipment lol

But I do have ideas, and if you guys want to take this idea of a map and run with it then that's fine by me.  Of course you would make changes to it.

I am pretty much just drawing it on photoshop to give you guys an idea of my vision of how maps could work in PS, considering the power of the unreal engine.

I'd go with the jungle map anyday :D, plus the circus one would be VERY intresting :P, imagine if just for laughs there was a button which could make a large clown face do a devious laugh to scare Spys/Mercs :D.

Im doing a kinda variation of your jugnel base papaskull. I was originally doing a polar base in jungle theme but then I saw your idea and i'd already done a tower in the middle so I kinda implemented a few of your ideas aswell.
Don't look at the textures because I had to choose from the SC ones and they weren't really what I needed, I'll photoshop some later.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg144.imageshack.us%2Fimg144%2F209%2Foutdoorshk0.jpg&hash=98446906d8dcf7b90aaabc18ba4100156c299c81)
this is what it would look like from the merc spawn, except there would be a light on their spawn building.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg258.imageshack.us%2Fimg258%2F7756%2Foutdoorusks0.jpg&hash=a9e5ea34f73c8edef6318a0ff985339df4693cc9)
You should be able to see the lamps lighting the winding path to the spawn area.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg411.imageshack.us%2Fimg411%2F2810%2Ftower2ssm1.jpg&hash=eda85df0133d840c7b09b6c6423b7cdc589e0ef9)
You didn't really elaborate on what was in the tower, as you can see i've gone for a warehouse theme because it would be a cool thing to have like a store house (hence the forklifts downstairs) the other tall building would be concrete but the rest would be wooden like the merc spawn. I like industrial v jungle.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg144.imageshack.us%2Fimg144%2F3356%2Ftowerseb2.jpg&hash=f9f850e7021e19e62104106a1c1947403550df4e)

The forest is not even partly done yet. I'm going to add more trees and shit as I go along.

Obviously if you don't like it then suggest what I could do or if you don't want anyone else designing your map then I'll scrap it :)

BTB this is like my first map and i'm still learning as I go along, so that explains why the path is all squared off ;)

it looks kinda big in the inside.

the only thing i like about papaskull's suggestion is the idea of a forest/jungle between little camps with objectives, which offers totally new possibilities for gameplay and interactivity. heck, you could even climb from tree to tree, blow up trees so that they topple down, set a fire in dry gras (maybe via bomb objective) creating lots of smoke, etc. the only map with a (bad) forest is orphanage, and it's not between the objectives, it's between spawn and objectives. additionally, changing lightning/weather plays a bigger role outside of a building.
there are many things i don't like about papaskull's map suggestion, eg the vents, a single central camping point and the symmetric layout. but i really hope someone grabs the concept of the jungle/forest location.  :o

I've made it all industrial now because it make the buildings easier to find when your a merc.
I'm not going to add the vents because it means spies can manovere to quickly around the map and putting the mercs on a wild goose chase. It's not going to be as symmetrical either, im just taking papa skulls concept and altering it.

About the tower being big inside. I wanted the tower to be a central point on the map which you could see to know where you are so the players don't get lost to easy. The problem is the verticality issues which come with making soo many levels. I may reduce the height but i'm not going to fill the empty space because mercs will find it hard to reach the top quickly (somthing I kept in mind when creating it). I'm nearly done on the merc spawn building, it's like an office downstairs and a presentation room upstairs. There are windows but the spy will not be able to get in though them obviously ;)

Any other comments on the pics i've already shown? I'd prefer to change now rather than later!

you could build an elevator in the tower. could be pretty interesting if connected to a generator. it could get stuck if the power goes off while someone is taking a ride...
btw, if you want some inspiration for a big map, clarity soft is a good approach. i'm still convinced that clarity could be made really awesome with some little changes and every distance (x,y,z) reduced by ~20%.
the real hard thing in your map will be making the forest/jungle well-looking and interesting and balanced for the gameplay.

Argh im trying to add an elevator but whenever I click intersect the editor crashes randomly :(

btw, you probably need some broader trees and bushes for cover.
if you want a theme for the tower, how about a huge water tank with an observation platform on it + some satellite dishes on the roof?
i suggest a layout with 3 buildings so that the jungle/forest between them is part of the gameplay. for example:
-tower with elevator and observation platform. bomb objective: satellite dishes; disk drop zone nr.1; 1 laptop somewhere in the tower or on a bridge between two buildings
-generator building (hack panel; cuts off electricity for elevator and most lights on the map) with servers in the basement: disk objective
-small office building with only one floor: 2 laptop objectives and nearby heliport: drop zone nr.2

So do you think the tower should be a building or just a water tower etc?

found this on the internet, maybe you could use it as reference:
http://www.rwbilder.de/frame/Themen/2000/Juni2000/Wasserturm/Wasserturm_22.07.2000_01.JPG (http://www.rwbilder.de/frame/Themen/2000/Juni2000/Wasserturm/Wasserturm_22.07.2000_01.JPG)

Cool building.

I was thinking of a tower reminiscent to the polar base tower.  About 4 levels high, a roof, stairs, a working elevator, and ziplines leading to other objectives.  It would just be centered.  It wouldn't be a totally useful camping point either.  Why?  Because it doesn't let you cover the other objectives, the only way out of the tower is the bottom for mercenaries.  You can snipe, but if a spy gets passed the tower point unseen, then he can easily get an objective depending on what the other merc is doing. 

The only way you can be successful on this map is NOT camping the middle tower.  It wouldn't be that easy to snipe in the forest.  Of course if you camped the middle tower then they wouldn't be able to get the bombing objective that easily.  But, there are 4 other objectives and they only have to get 3.  The 4 objectives would be tough for one merc to guard especially when the bases are seperated like they are.

on a balanced map, you usually have 2 more objectives than necessary to finish the mission (=> 3 objectives left in the end with 2 mercs covering them => 1 objective always uncovered).

Yeah dude there are 5 objectives on this map, as already stated.  And if you only have to get 3 of them, then there will be 2 left over.  I was saying 4 objectives other than the bombing objective in the tower, so if you have one guy camping the tower, then 2 or 3 objectives won't be covered depending on the other merc's position.  It's a pretty balanced map.  There is no place or position on the map that is totally overpowered and a main camping spot.

learn math papa. 2 is not 3.
polar base is a bad example for map design, it's all about knocking out/killing one merc and/or running in circles from objective to objective around the central tower.

Quote from: Gawain on November 19, 2007, 02:35:32 PM
learn math papa. 2 is not 3.
polar base is a bad example for map design, it's all about knocking out/killing one merc and/or running in circles from objective to objective around the central tower.

Yeah polar is horrible. You pretty much can't win that map with stealth at all.

Quote from: Gawain on November 19, 2007, 02:35:32 PM
learn math papa. 2 is not 3.

He said there would be five(5) objectives. You only have to get three(3) of them. 5-3=2.

Quote
on a balanced map, you usually have 2 more objectives than necessary to finish the mission

i'm sorry papa, i was in a hurry and didn't read properly; of course, 3/5 is ok.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 19, 2007, 04:17:22 PM
Yeah polar is horrible. You pretty much can't win that map with stealth at all.

well you can hide for a grab/jump, but that's it. going aggro 90% of the time is simply way more effective on polar though it's still quite a merc map (ump version slightely better afaik but only played it once).
the central spawn point, the fast access to practically everything on the map from the roof and the loop layout tends to result in one merc camping between container/hangar and one merc at bomb/disc. if one of them got camnet, you can totally screw stealth anyways. now the most common tactic is to knock out one merc with a quickcam or one spy covering the other hacking spy till the other merc arrives (usually within some seconds), then they run away asap (sniping possibility for the mercs) and do the same elsewhere. with the high bomb timer, the bomb objective is more a distraction than an objective. the disc on the roof is a better joke, too.

learn to read lol just kiddin

It isn't a central point on the map.  Spies don't spawn there.  It is central on probably 1/3 of the whole map.  I already explained why this tower won't be camped, and when it is the merc camping it will fail.  It isn't a fast route to the exit, either a slow elevator ride to the bottom or a long flight of stairs.  On top of that you would have to go all the way to the base that is being hacked.  By then, the spy will have gotten most or all of that terminal.  The other merc will probably only be able to defend ONE base, he can't defend both.  No successful or intelligent merc would camp in the tower for longer than 20 seconds at a time.

What about the following idea:

High tower with 2 elevators. Elevators take 15 secs to get up, stay up for 30 secs and then 15 to go down.
The tower is made up of 2 sides:

|elevator1|wall|elevator2|

It's sniping heaven with a good shot at every Spy-entrance.
The platform at which the mercs stand, is the elevator. When it goes down, the merc also goes down. The Merc can NOT stay at the top.

The idea:
To keep 1 merc in an uber-pwning sniping position, he'll have to go down and up. Takes time during which he can't see much (only a few windows).
To keep 2 mercs in the sniping position, 1 stays down, 1 is up and that alternates. The advantage is that the sniping spot is used to the max. Disadvantage is that objectives are free to be hacked while both elevators move and that it uses 2 mercs.

I know this explanation sucks. :D

Yeah, no matter what you do with the tower it won't be a good idea to stay up there very long anyways.  Even if you could stay up there with your explanation, what is there to snipe?  I mean, you can hardly snipe through dense foliage, trees, darkness anyways.  Especially when you are looking down onto the trees.  It aint an uber omfg spot, it's a balanced tower.  When spies see a merc up there they are probably going to both rush a base meaning that one merc can't defend both bases at the same time and the spies will get atleast one objective complete and maybe pick up a disc.

I am not talking about the jungle map.
I am talking about a new type of 'time-driven' uber snipe tower.

Oh, I thought you were because we were talking about jungle map's tower when you suggested that.  Your idea sounds okay but a bit too complicated.

what about the water turret idea with only 1 bombing objective and a sniper spot at the top and nothing but a fast elevator on the inside plus a ladder (slow)/stairs on the outside? with a generator room being able to cut off electricity for the elevator and the spot lights on top of the turret it could make an interesting gameplay element. some ropes down to other locations would be fun, too.

Yeah that's what I suggested in my desription.  I mean the the cutting off the power and spotlights idea.  So you agree?  I agree on the fact that there should be 1 bombing objective in the middle of the tower.

if you wanna go for the jungle/forest idea with several buidlings, there should be no rooms in the middle of the turret.

New map idea!! Please READ!

Halo 3 is known for having some maps with great replay value.  I was playing the Last Resort map on Halo 3 and I realized that it would be a terrific map for SvM multiplayer.

Here are some screens:
http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-08.jpg (http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-08.jpg)
This is a view from the other side of the map.
http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-04.jpg (http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-04.jpg)
On the right of the picture is one base, to the left is another base, and in the middle of the picture is another base.  As you can see there are some walkways


As you can see on the first picture Spies spawn on the beach and the big wall is basically a big barrier, mercs cannot get up onto it and the hole in the wall would be gone.  On the other side of the wall is basically a bunch of bases seperated by areas of dirt and concrete.  There are 3 core bases.  We could place a terminal in each base, add a bomb or disc to the big spinning wheel and another disc in the bigger base.

Note that you can't go out into the mountainous areas, those are the map's barriers.  ALSO note that it would be night time.

The mercs would spawn in the far corners of the map, making them a good distance away from each objective. If you look at the second picture, one merc would spawn at the bottom of the image but we would have to put him in some sort of room that spies can't get into.  This map is mid sized.


Hopefully some of you have played this map and know what I am talking about and can back me up.

Ask questions if you don't know what I am talking about because I really think that this map's layout would work out incredibly for PS.  I know what I am talking about, believe me, I've been playing on this map for 3 years.  It would work perfectly.

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 26, 2007, 12:54:32 AM
New map idea!! Please READ!

Halo 3 is known for having some maps with great replay value.  I was playing the Last Resort map on Halo 3 and I realized that it would be a terrific map for SvM multiplayer.

Here are some screens:
http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-08.jpg (http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-08.jpg)
This is a view from the other side of the map.
http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-04.jpg (http://www.bungie.net/images/News/InlineImages2007/BetaBeyond/Halo3_Last-Resort_Environment-04.jpg)
On the right of the picture is one base, to the left is another base, and in the middle of the picture is another base.  As you can see there are some walkways


As you can see on the first picture Spies spawn on the beach and the big wall is basically a big barrier, mercs cannot get up onto it and the hole in the wall would be gone.  On the other side of the wall is basically a bunch of bases seperated by areas of dirt and concrete.  There are 3 core bases.  We could place a terminal in each base, add a bomb or disc to the big spinning wheel and another disc in the bigger base.

Note that you can't go out into the mountainous areas, those are the map's barriers.  ALSO note that it would be night time.

The mercs would spawn in the far corners of the map, making them a good distance away from each objective. If you look at the second picture, one merc would spawn at the bottom of the image but we would have to put him in some sort of room that spies can't get into.  This map is mid sized.


Hopefully some of you have played this map and know what I am talking about and can back me up.

Ask questions if you don't know what I am talking about because I really think that this map's layout would work out incredibly for PS.  I know what I am talking about, believe me, I've been playing on this map for 3 years.  It would work perfectly.

That is a great idea, played a ton of halo3(900 matchmaking games) and that really would be a great map.  Kind of like deftec belew but could be implemented much better and more balanced.  That map had so much potential(deftec) but became to unbalanced.

Our style of game play requires up close and personal confrontations.  To force that,  we need tight maps with rooms and corridors that are small enough for mercs to navigate quickly. 

Doom 3 would be a better example of darkness that feels claustorphobic 

This map would have plenty of that.  It isn't that big of a map as the pictures make it out to be, it's actually approximately the size of sector 1 and 2 of warehouse combined.  Not that big, actually pretty small for a SvM map.  Not too claustrophobic though, only inside the bases are there a lot of narrow hallways and rooms.  Plus the big wheel in the middle discourages mercs to snipe a whole lot, the big wheel would block a lot of views.  Actually, I could upload a video walkthrough of the map showing everyone the details.  I don't know when I'll get around to it, at most in a day or two.

Anyone else have an opinion on the map?  I mean the last resort map not the jungle.

Quote from: goodkebab on November 26, 2007, 02:48:45 AM
Our style of game play requires up close and personal confrontations.  To force that,  we need tight maps with rooms and corridors that are small enough for mercs to navigate quickly. 

Yeah you want fairly tight maps, but not too tight where the mercs can get anywhere at any time. It would be kind of nice to set up some basic balance guidelines though. Things like "traveling to one objective to another close objective should take 6 seconds for the merc" or something like that.

Clearly we want to have maps bigger than Aqua and warehouse, but we also want to avoid crap like Vertigo where you can't possibly respond in time if you miss seeing which direction they took out of the spawn.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 27, 2007, 09:22:26 AM

Quote from: goodkebab on November 26, 2007, 02:48:45 AM
Our style of game play requires up close and personal confrontations.  To force that,  we need tight maps with rooms and corridors that are small enough for mercs to navigate quickly. 

Yeah you want fairly tight maps, but not too tight where the mercs can get anywhere at any time. It would be kind of nice to set up some basic balance guidelines though. Things like "traveling to one objective to another close objective should take 6 seconds for the merc" or something like that.

Clearly we want to have maps bigger than Aqua and warehouse, but we also want to avoid crap like Vertigo where you can't possibly respond in time if you miss seeing which direction they took out of the spawn.

the problem with aqua is not the size but the central camping points, eg tech room and bridge. if there was another objective in the office, things would look different.

no i don't think there should be standards. i like diversity in gameplay which depends on the map in some extend. i think most map concepts can get balanced with little changes of timers, lightning, security, obstacles, vents etc.

Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 27, 2007, 09:22:26 AM
Clearly we want to have maps bigger than Aqua and warehouse, but we also want to avoid crap like Vertigo where you can't possibly respond in time if you miss seeing which direction they took out of the spawn.

In other words you want to have 1 scheme maps. All these maps are ok but you need to know how to play them.

1 scheme maps?  Why?  We need some variety.  Variety so it isn't the same style of gameplay on every map.

Last resort is not a PS map. It's too large and does not feature enough paths or diversity to create the atmosphere that a typical PS map should have. It's a map made for 10-16 players. not 4.
I for one would not play it as a PS map. I really can't stress enough that all the maps should be fresh and new designs. To gain more popularity, with the UT3 community, perhaps we should look at UT3's single player or one of their mulitplayer levels, and make an extension of that level. That way, it merges what they are used to into our MOD.

Large?  It's small for a SvM map.  Of course we would modify it to fit SvM with more vents/passageways/ziplines/rooms/walkways.  It would work.  Give it a darker atmosphere, throw in some more passages, maybe an underground level, and it would be set.

I think with a lot of modifications Last Resort would be a good map. There are multiple areas of insertion as well as many places that can be made to be spy friendly. If would could get a good working model I think it'd be nice. Add some spotlights looking the outdoor areas, actually pretty good. I'm trying to think of maps from other games that would be good for SvM.

If you can think of any you might want to provide pictures or the PC players won't know what you are talking about.  Spotlights would be awesome, seems like everyone wants those in a lot of maps now.

is there a way I can get a hand on the UT3 map editor without buying the game so I can start designing maps or anything?

Torrentz, but i suppose buting UT3 will be better anyways.

I havent read through the entire thread (it's pretty long & I'm at work.)  So sorry if this has been mentioned or is an old topic (I'm on the 3rd page). 

In regard to the weather changing, wouldn't it be best to have the weather change according to the time left on the map?

10 Minutes - Dark storm clouds, Heavy Rain, Heavy Winds, and LOUD lighning & thunder. (lightning should illuminate the map and create dynamic shadows for a split second, lighting would have to be totally random otherwise skilled gamers would time it and hide appropriately to avoid shadows from it.)
7 Minutes - Storm Clouds clear up a bit, rain slows down and winds calm down, Lighting & Thunder settles down.
5 Minutes - Skies clear a slight drizzle still evident and no thunder
2 Minutes - Sunny Sky (Maybe throw a little rainbow in there; if possible), no rain, you can still have some thunder.
of course Random weather would be the coolest but that's kind of hard to do probably. 

That could work on some maps tho i dont know what are possiblities of implementing it. Personally id rather see maps with changing weather but im not saying no to this concept.

I think it could add to intensify the game. 
Of course we all watch "The Weather Channel" and we know with 3 minutes left on the map XYZ will happen. 
But if Spies manage to finish a map with 6 minutes left some things wont happen, however if the spies are down to two minutes the map may get a bit harder...

Imagine a Greenhouse kind of level.   at 5AM(10 minutes) it's dark inside, When it rains the roof is closed and when it stops raining 2 minutes remaining (2 Minutes left) the rooftop begins to open and let light inside therefore making it a bit harder for the spies that like to be stealthy.  This can force them to "HURRY UP" and be less Stealthy.

It's already hard enough for spies to hurry up and get objectives with little time left.  And we want maps to be a little darker and more stealth involved then before right?  So, maybe the maps could get darker as time goes on?  Maybe there are environmental changes that HELP spies within the last minute or so?  I like your idea, you just maybe got it backwards lol

Well maybe it's a little backwards but with Time winding down it I think it may intensify the way I mentioned it, but it prob would be UBER HARD.  But yes, I guess if 1/3 objectives were hacked and 1 minute to go, daylight would make this map impossible...I see where you are coming from.

Remember ppl that weather cant change 10 times in 10 minutes. So 1 effect in 1 game can be cool but more may look silly.

Sun goes down and the light that comes through windows is affected. last minute of game starlight shows up.

Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 04, 2007, 09:12:59 PM
Sun goes down and the light that comes through windows is affected. last minute of game starlight shows up.

qfe
don't overdo it.

I still think that it'd result in the spies waiting for the sun to go down... So it'd essentially be joining a match then waiting the first five minutes. Nay, I say.

If you're going to wait you'll have about 1:30 to 2 minutes left to do all objectives.
You MUST move before the sun goes down or you're out of time.

Oh, I misunderstood.

Yeah, it might be good on some maps. But not all.

The whole idea really depends on how it is implemented or how the map is designed.

interactive maps.

I always liked the idea of CT on the map Aquarius
When you cleared a opjective it would effect the map.
Like open doors, add steam, loss laser grid.

Maby create maps with time windows.
You allready got the weather effects on time
but like the movie mision impossible II
ethan hunt has like a time window to enter the building from the roof
becase there needs to be some amounth of air or so
so every now and then the airpanel opens.
can this be added to the game.

banks have a time lock on the vault.
let airvents with blowers inside stop now and then.
maby let a (voice) message pass by for a mission update.

also what catched my eye on the factory map with CT was
that you can power systems with your SS.
activate machines/lights/rollerbelts

I think we'll be having a lot more interaction in our maps. But we're still busy so I don't have good examples yet. And I doubt I'd say them if I had.

Quote from: Papa Skull on November 10, 2007, 06:41:20 PM
What if you could change the weather and lighting of maps?  Like before the game starts you can toggle whether it is raining or foggy or whatever.  And you can change whether it is sunset, nightime, morning, or day.  Wouldn't that be tight?  You would have to change your strategy to a different style even though it is the same map.  Like if it's day on a jungle level, you can't really rely on darkness anymore.  Instead, you have to rely on using cover, foliage, and timing to keep moving.  And if it's foggy outside, you know that if you keep distance from mercs and don't use visions, you are invisible.  Is changing weather possible on Unreal Engine 3?  I hope so, that would be wicked.

No to weather change. If it could be set or, even worse, random, it could totally ruin the other team's round. For example, rain/no rain would make a huge difference on Vertigo Plaza, because if it rains, spies cannot use their camo suit while moving above the catwalks, and assuming the other team had "just" fog, there's a huge imbalance.


Edit:

Additionally, I could just turn evil and change everything to day when I'm playing merc. Oh, there so will be those who will exploit this to the maximum.

Quote from: Kurbutti on January 01, 2008, 07:35:50 PM

No to weather change. If it could be set or, even worse, random, it could totally ruin the other team's round. For example, rain/no rain would make a huge difference on Vertigo Plaza, because if it rains, spies cannot use their camo suit while moving above the catwalks, and assuming the other team had "just" fog, there's a huge imbalance.


Edit:

Additionally, I could just turn evil and change everything to day when I'm playing merc. Oh, there so will be those who will exploit this to the maximum.

Maybe daytime shouldn't be an option.  But I really think that weather would add a lot of variety.  You are right, you would have to adjust your equipment for the weather and map at hand.  Like if it's raining, camo might not be a great choice if it is outside mostly.  Or if it's foggy, camo might be a great choice.  Weather wouldn't be random,  :D, you would have to know the weather before you choose you gadgets.

Well I agree that it sounds cool and I'd really welcome it to any SP game that I get to play, but in SvM changing weather could cause some serious balance issues, mostly in map design. While cool, this kind of feature would require a lot of work from mappers to maintain a form of balance regardless of weather conditions. I really have to disagree here, because it further steepens the learning curve; you need to know how to defend different areas in different weather, because fog for example will most likely cover spies' advance excellently, giving them sanctuary from being spotted visually and possibly a more faster beginning as well.

Furthermore, creating open-ended maps would become almost impossible to balance to all weather conditions, and eventually this would cause an increase in indoor maps, where outdoor circumstances wouldn't matter at all. Vertigo is still a good example when you try to imagine what difference does it make to have many weather conditions.

I can see dawn, dusk and night being good choices. The sun would be in a different direction in dawn and dusk, so it'd change the game slightly but not too much. It depends if the merc will be blinded if looking directly at the sun, though. I think he should be. Night would be a sort of middle ground, where the merc doesn't have to worry about being blinded, but there's less light.

i like the sun changing idea, cause that wouldnt change balance too much, as for weather, it would be cool, and i think what papa meant was constant weather for a certian map, like in aq its rainning outside.  You could get all kinds of stuff, rain and fog as stated b4 would be cool, also lightly falling snow would be cool on a map like polar base.

I think that fog on polar base would actually balance it a little more.  That way you couldn't shoot a frag from the disc to the hangar so easily.

I meant that you could change the weather on a map.  But you'd know the weather before the game started.  So, you'd shape your gadgets on 4 variables:

The way the other team plays (if you happen to know)
The map
The weather
What your teammate is bringing

Example:  If it's a map that is mostly outside and the weather setting is on rain, camo would be a bad choice right?  But, if it is a map that is mostly outside and the weather setting is on fog, camo might be an awesome gadget to take.

I'd think it'd be nice if maps had various security you could select as a merc on each room. Obviously you can't select all of it at once.

Like say for museum you have the following choices:

Monolith: Lasers, cameras
Corridors: Lasers, run sensor.
Cafe: low Lasers, motion sensors, high lasers
Exhibition: Cameras, lasers Config A, lasers Config B.
Storage: Motion sensors, lasers.

Something like that that gives mercs 1-3 options of what to choose. Similar to PT's random security but without the actual randomness, giving the defenders a choice of what secruity to use. Also setting it for each room, such that spies have to figure out what defense variant exists in each area.

I'm thinking each merc might get a few areas to choose depending on where they start. For instance, a merc starting downstairs in clubhouse gets to choose the downstairs defenses, and his partner gets to choose the upstairs layout.

I think that there should maybe be little rooms or booths in which you can fiddle with the security settings.  But your suggestion is great too.

PT had random security how come i don't remeber this??  yea 1 or more security rooms where u can turn it to 1 of a few options would be cool.  kinda like the menu for mines.  ooo new idea what if this room had something like camnet, only useable when in the room and camnet is or isnt a gadget anymore because of it. the room could be soem what like the sweet security room in river mall.

Yeah, I've suggested that a few times while you weren't here.  I think it would be nice, but drones would also be good.  And drones wouldn't be too popular with any kind of camnet in the game, and vice versa.

Quote from: Papa Skull on January 02, 2008, 07:19:35 AM
Yeah, I've suggested that a few times while you weren't here.

Other people suggested it. Then there was an agreement.

Seems as though camnet is staying in PS Fusion. The cam booth idea had its perks, but overall most people liked camnet with no visions.

I suggested it, then I saw others suggested it also before me, but I didn't know.  I'd love this idea.  But if camnet remains, the cameras need to look decent.  ::)  Like not a giant eyeball.

Quote from: Papa Skull on January 02, 2008, 09:57:47 AM
I suggested it, then I saw others suggested it also before me, but I didn't know.  I'd love this idea.  But if camnet remains, the cameras need to look decent.  ::)  Like not a giant eyeball.

Yeah man. Too bad.

Eyeballs pwn.

portal style yeeha

you discussion reminds me of a flaw related to lobby/spawn: there should be an indicator where you spawn first in the lobby, and probably you should be able to switch it if you mate agrees. for instance, if you play with traps on club/factory, you probably want to spawn in the 2nd floor.

Quote from: Gawain on January 02, 2008, 02:58:43 PM
portal style yeeha

you discussion reminds me of a flaw related to lobby/spawn: there should be an indicator where you spawn first in the lobby, and probably you should be able to switch it if you mate agrees. for instance, if you play with traps on club/factory, you probably want to spawn in the 2nd floor.

That's imo only a flaw in map-design. General spawnpoints for each team would be the best way to go.

yeah it would probably be better if the mercs always spawn in one place that's neither central nor on the moon, but close enough to the spy spawn to prevent easy rushes. furthermore, it should be always in a room the spies cannot enter.
it's kinda annoying that after dying a merc can spawn in different areas, but no1 knows at wich spawn point.

Well, if you did read the UT bible, you'd know that the enemy always spawns:
-in another zone
-out of sight
-not further than 500 UT'99 units from you (if you play duel). idk how many CT units that makes =/

That also applies to CT, and because there are only 3 spawnpoints, you can easily know where the merc respawns (if you comm. with your mate, that is). That gives you a HUGE advantage, since you can use the countdown clock to know when he resps, and about how long it would take for him to get to the place you are.
Now, in UT'99 there were 16 spawnpoints on every map, so it was way harder to predict, but still possible.

How about if you could pickup and carry a tall potted plant with you?

LOL Stealth Redefined!

or the mgs box  ;D

I would laugh until I literally pissed myself.

Wouldn't that be great if you had a warehouse map that just had a crap load of boxes that were all the same, and the spies had to use the boxes to do their objectives? Also, when the merc spots the moving box, you'd see a big

?

over his head LOL

Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 02, 2008, 06:40:59 PM
Well, if you did read the UT bible, you'd know that the enemy always spawns:
-in another zone
-out of sight
-not further than 500 UT'99 units from you (if you play duel). idk how many CT units that makes =/

That also applies to CT, and because there are only 3 spawnpoints, you can easily know where the merc respawns (if you comm. with your mate, that is). That gives you a HUGE advantage, since you can use the countdown clock to know when he resps, and about how long it would take for him to get to the place you are.
Now, in UT'99 there were 16 spawnpoints on every map, so it was way harder to predict, but still possible.

Still, I think the best solution would be to have one well thought out spawnplace for each team.

Agreed.  But there shouldn't be just one way to exit the spawn.  Meaning there would be multiple ways to exit so you don't have someone just camping your spawnpoint hallway or camming/smoking/flashing it to death.  What I liked about warehouse was the ability to come out in different places, but spawn in the same place.

River mall is also a good example of this as I said b4 :)

river mall is probably the best example for a good spawn point.

Of course.  Model the map's spawn points like River Mall.  One general spawn point with plenty of exits branching in different directions.

I concur. Playing Warehouse on CT was just plain annoying. All ways go into the warehouse building.

And most of the spies get killed by a nade to the pipe that goes up.

Warehouse was just horrible design. Lets not do any one room maps anymore.

Well, of course.  But it did have spawns designed right, and that was it really.

Making all the spawns identical is a bad idea; they should be different on different maps.

Yeah, obviously.  But River Mall had a great thing going for spawns.  It was balanced, and you could go a lot of different directions from it even though the spawn point was in just one area.

the spawn on river mall is central but still quite far away from the objectives. besides the camnet pointed at the hologram, it's the best implemented spawn point.

Aside from the camnet whoring, I really like the design of river mall in general. I think if we added more shadows and removed the camnet abuses, it could be a really great map.

Agreed.

Wow, yes! Freakin' awesome idea. Maybe something like, while the ship is moving, on occasion, the ship tilts putting the players under a little lack of control of their character for a few seconds, possible saving a knocked down spy his life, or an almost grabbed Mercenary his life.

Quote from: Guggle on January 09, 2008, 03:53:36 AM
Wow, yes! Freakin' awesome idea. Maybe something like, while the ship is moving, on occasion, the ship tilts putting the players under a little lack of control of their character for a few seconds, possible saving a knocked down spy his life, or an almost grabbed Mercenary his life.

What does this have to do with river mall?

Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 09, 2008, 04:46:02 AM

Quote from: Guggle on January 09, 2008, 03:53:36 AM
Wow, yes! Freakin' awesome idea. Maybe something like, while the ship is moving, on occasion, the ship tilts putting the players under a little lack of control of their character for a few seconds, possible saving a knocked down spy his life, or an almost grabbed Mercenary his life.

What does this have to do with river mall?

He was replying to my first post.  I don't mean something that is going to change the gameplay so much like that.  But I mean change the way you play the map.  Like things you do affect the map greatly.  (like the bulldozer hack in factory)  The things you could do would open up new pathways and add more variety to the map.

Quote from: Guggle on January 09, 2008, 03:53:36 AM
Wow, yes! Freakin' awesome idea. Maybe something like, while the ship is moving, on occasion, the ship tilts putting the players under a little lack of control of their character for a few seconds, possible saving a knocked down spy his life, or an almost grabbed Mercenary his life.

No team should be able to get a significant advantage based on randomness!

I have an idea. Why not make moveable objects that spies and mercs could move? For example, if a ledge was too high, you could put a box under. Or you could push a box onto some stairs and hit the merc coming up. Or put it in a doorway, and have a laser mine pointing at it. The posibilities are endless.

pretty bad idea. but i'm quite sure they have that in sc5 (which will be the fuc**ng best crouch sim ever)...

Could you point out why? That just came out as a knee-jerk responce.

Hmmm...  It wouldn't be too bad.  It would change a lot of gameplay though.