i hereby apply for above-named position.
the part i could contribute to this project is collecting the feedback from the beta testers and good ct players, compiling a bug list, making decisions what gameplay changes should be tried first, etc.
i do care much about the balance and gameplay of project stealth, and no offence, but except mr.mic and seefoo i can't find good players in the dev team. finding bugs and creating balance is a very crucial part of creating a good game which you can't just do with a forum and some polls.
i'm always open for valid arguments no matter who makes them and i think i have a pretty good understanding of the core gameplay (though ct only, played pt only for some weeks) and simply want helpt to create a gaming experience as close to a (better balanced) ct versus mode as possible.
if you don't think i'm capable of doing this job, you should really ask someone good like lediniz, spekkio, illusion, neverdown etc
No. Just for the simple fact that you do not listen to the following: PS is not only for CT pros, which makes you pretty biased.
Quote from: Overstatement on November 15, 2007, 03:00:36 PM
No. Just for the simple fact that you do not listen to the following: PS is not only for CT pros, which makes you pretty biased.
well, a balance commissary should be biased to balance at competitive level ;)
i may have sounded kinda elitist in some posts, but if you look closer you will see that i also recommended an extensive tutorial, a replay system etc.
it's a fact that the most important thing for long-term fun is balance at competitive level.
BUT i'm well aware that there should be no gadget/gameplay mechanic a middle skilled player can't circumvent, and probably some maps better suited for worse players.
and of course, i'd also ask new players (like hopefully some of my rl friends) what problems they have to deal with, what they don't understand, what they consider "lame" etc.
Nope.
Unfortunatly, there isn't a lot to balance yet >.>
And I think we are capable enough to determine wheter something is balanced or not, we play the game as well, remember?
Maybe after we have a beta and people are already testing but right now it is kinda useless.
Does balancing have its own department? I'm pretty sure that just comes naturally after the devs are playing and beta release to the public.
Quote from: LennardF1989 on November 15, 2007, 05:02:02 PM
Unfortunatly, there isn't a lot to balance yet >.>
And I think we are capable enough to determine wheter something is balanced or not, we play the game as well, remember?
well, there will be. ;)
and no, you are not. the fact that you are on the dev team doesn't give you the ingame experience and gameplay understanding you need. heck, did you even play ct for more than 100 hours? people on the dev team should be occupied with at that time with a lot of other work anyways.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on November 15, 2007, 05:11:54 PM
Maybe after we have a beta and people are already testing but right now it is kinda useless.
some decisions (not final, but what to try out first) can be made before going beta:
-mt
-3 or 1 weapon
-camnet
-tazer
-number of slots and gadgets (frag nades) + placable amount of gadgets (spytraps, mines)
-behaviour of incendiary and phosphorous nades
-sticky cam network feature
-ability to remove trap/heal partner
etc.
if the decision works out well, you safe a lot of development time. but in general, the main balance work begins with the beta as we already have a pretty exact master of how the game should play like which makes things way easier.
Quote from: Tidenburg on November 15, 2007, 05:36:41 PM
Does balancing have its own department? I'm pretty sure that just comes naturally after the devs are playing and beta release to the public.
no it doesn't come naturally. best example is star craft II, afaik blizzard is/will be working on the balance for about 1 year with the help of some professional sc1 players, and there will come a lot of patches. the reason sc1 stayed alive for 10 years is the nearly perfect balancing despite the diversity of the sides, and the fact that the top players could improve their skill for years.
btw, i would really care that as least as possible is changed, but more gadget combinations and strategies become viable at competitive level. balance is not only about balance between the two teams, but also about diversity = fun/freshness and the facility that players can improve for a long period of time.
No offense, but it would be biased.. I hope the devs stand by their decision. You're just asking for your voice to weight heavier.
No.
Quote from: Cyntrox on November 15, 2007, 05:48:35 PM
No offense, but it would be biased.. I hope the devs stand by their decision. You're just asking for your voice to weight heavier.
omg, what's wrong with a focus on medium-pro players? if there's balance at a low skill level, well that's great. but if the balance at competitive level is bad, the game will die for most vets pretty quickly.
and why on earh do you think im biased towards something anyways? it's no crime to tell console players to get to know the pc version first before telling bs. this forum is already going towards ubi style...
if you really want to have the most ingame fun based on a good community, you should help new players to become better in a shorter time, eg teaching them, videos/replays with comments, more advanced tutorials etc.
and no, i'm not asking for my voice being weight heavier, learn to read ffs. i'm asking for the voice of the more experienced players to be weight heavier, so i would be happy if another good player would do the job. it's not that i'm keen on work if someone else could do it as good/better than me.
it's really common sense that a player who spend 1000h+ at the game knows more about it than someone spending 100h on it. a "pro" is also more likely to play ps for a bigger amount of time. and if you really like ct/ps, you are likely to do so, too. so have fun at a not balanced competitive level like we have now.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on November 15, 2007, 05:50:29 PM
No.
you already said so...
;D
Quote from: Gawain on November 15, 2007, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: LennardF1989 on November 15, 2007, 05:02:02 PM
Unfortunatly, there isn't a lot to balance yet >.>
And I think we are capable enough to determine wheter something is balanced or not, we play the game as well, remember?
well, there will be. ;)
and no, you are not. the fact that you are on the dev team doesn't give you the ingame experience and gameplay understanding you need. heck, did you even play ct for more than 100 hours? people on the dev team should be occupied with at that time with a lot of other work anyways.
I find this rather insulting...
Do I have to play some game before actually having enough experience to code a game? I mean, come on... You think the Ubisoft guys had ingame experience when they started CT?
I HAVE to play it, no matter what. When something isn't right (balance, bug, glitch whatever), I have to fix it, but seeing is believing. Besides, I always have a team backing me up when needed.
I also got plenty of time to do what I want, it's a spare time project with NO deadlines.
Oh, and to get some misery out of the world,
PS IS NOT A CLONE OF CT!!!!. Think of it... this is our game and it will do what WE (PS Team) want in the first place. Yes, we discuss on ideas and ask for thoughts about our ideas now and then, but in the end, it's mainly our decision what gets in the game or not.
So to get to the point again, we are capable enough to determine wheter something is good, bad, balanced, unbalanced, whatever, and we don't need an extra guy for that. PERIOD.
Just wait for the beta and then start complaining about unbalancing... If ever needed, since we actually PLAY the game before releasing it...
Oh, and people, stop coming up with the lame ideas to get in the team... A Forum manager while we have 3 admins, and a Balancing commisary for a game that only can start a level... When you have some decent coding skills or mapping skills, then get in contact with us...
how about this: leave one (YES, 1 ) vision to be selectable per team. Add like 5 visions )each for detecting other traps- ways of spies etc. BALANCE IT.
wrong thread kokafan
Lennard, you're really arrogant and immature. you can't correct the balance like you delete a bug or glitch, it's way more complicated and your post shows clearly that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. your coding skills have absolutely no relation to your understanding of the svm gameplay. and NO, you can't make the game you want to; the aim of this project is to CLONE the ct gameplay FIRST without the bugs, then do some balance fine tuning and maybe add some new gadgets/features. i know you the devs can't say it because of legal issues but that's the whole point. you simply want nobody to tell you what to program, but guess what: you're probably a toal n00b in ct, and you probably will be in ps for some time. it's not that you're making your own game, you have commited to project stealth ffs. unlike you, i don't want to create my game, i want to enhance the ct svm gameplay. you should really meditate on your motivation...
summed up my point is: there needs to be one dev member with much ct experience at competitive level in charge of balancing. it simply doesn't work in a democratic process with noobs voting.
what i'm not saying is that noobs should be ignored; they simply have no right to talk about balance.
i'm aware that most folks here don't respect me for whatever reason so i suggest you look for someone else.
Its not about disrespect but about your attitude to newbs. There is nothing worse than situation when some new player wants to help somehow, he has ideas and then someone else tells him that he has no right to state his opinion. One person, even pro cant shape the gameplay...why ? Because the gameplay should shape itself. Its not the game making community play somehow, but community making the game. If most people are noobs the gameplay should be enough flexible to allow them to play and make progress. Balancing process needs time and you cant do it alone or even with 10 people to help you, no matter how skilled you are.
I remember times when I had no idea what these weird arrows around the crosshair mean and that running as a spy produces sound. If someone had told me then that i have no rights to say anything that would improve the gameplay in my opinion, I would have left this game immediatelly. No matter what Gawain, you cant play this game alone. We need new players to survive.
I guess this game wants to clone only SOME aspects of CT. I dont want to play a game which differs only with graphics and I dont want to play a game which i can master from the beginning - and thats what you want to do - fit the gameplay so its easier to play for your skill.
newcomers should be helped in any possible way to improve, but it's a huge mistake to try to adept the game to their skill level. 99% of ideas from noobs turn around their inability to counter a certain strategy/gameplay mechanic or underestimation of the possibilities the game already got.
i'm well aware that the balance process takes a lot of time and players. my point is that with one person responsible for the balance questions, the process can be significantly accelerated.
basic game mechanics like the sound indicator have to be in the tutorial. like i've mentioned 1000times before, a good tutorial, tip of the week, replays from own games and tournaments, a helpful community etc are the crucial points of bringing the newcomers to a point where they understand the basic concept and can develope their own play style; balancing a game for newcomers is just stupid though. the best result we can get is that it's acceptable balanced for middle skilled and well balanced for high skilled teams (yes it's not about solo-skill, it's about team skill).
no it wants to clone the svm gameplay and take ct gameplay as the initial point. the biggest mistake that can be done for ps is trying to create a new game from the beginning.
Problem with noobs is that they simply dont read tips. Mostly they play lame, cause they have no idea that something can be used in some way. Look how many noobs in CT dont know how to use visions. I could ask, how is it possible if there are vision tips in the compulsory tutorial before you play the first online game.
I think that the tutorial with an exam map was a good idea - the fact that you could just try and fail your way through it easily with no possibility for failure was not.
OT: One person should never determine balance. Everyone is biased, and even if you got this position you would become VERY unpopular. Why? You wouldn't be able to please everyone, not even near everyone, and with your attitude I don't know if you would even try. No offense.
i guess i'm already in the doghouse of some people here, but most people don't even know me (=chatting, playing some games together,...) ;D
well the job would not be changing stuff randomly the way i or the chosen person likes it, but asking players of all skill groups about their opinions on the topic, and using the feedback from the newbis for improving the tutorial/tips, the feedback from the middle skilled for the gross balance work and the feedback from the pros (will at least need some months till people become that good) for the fine tuning, eg patches after beta stage. as there is no time pressure (besides our impatience) there will be plenty room to try out new stuff and see what works.
it's important to get the opinion of the majority of players on certain gadgets etc (if they like it or not), but depending on the topic there are better and worse ways to get valid feedback. if you want to get feedback on the camo, you should ask a good stealth team rather than a good aggro team; if you want to get feedback on the tazer, you should ask a good aggro team rather than a good stealth team (+the respective specialized mercs).
it would also be helpful to get statistics which gadgets are preferred, which maps are preferred, etc.
to sum it up, i (or another balance commissary) would have to make some decisions, but the main part of my/his work is to collect and rank feedback from the community and find out which of the popular ideas could probably work out best especially by talking to the right people and thinking conclusively based on my/his svm experience.
I don't feel like discussing this in any way, since it has no point at all (for now that is). You know my statement...
And it's true that we can't do everything ourselves. Ofcourse the topics about unbalancing comes from you guys after the beta, but you have to know that EVERYTHING you will see is most likely scripted (how powerfull is a weapon, how fast you run/walk/crouch, grabbing a merc, killing a merc, EVERYTHING has code behind it which manipulates it in some way, you think the visions are just a simple texture which code overlays? Also think about destroyable lights.)
To make my statement again, even though I dont have played ct for "100 hours", I will most likely get be that time ingame double time, just for debugging, implenting, playing, testing, cheating, whatever.
This is no argument against my noobyness, but please don't make statements like we don't know balancing on our own. I know well enough when a mine/weapon/grenade is overpowered, same counts for other stuff that balances a game.
I don't really know what to say...
So I'll just say >:(
LoL i love how people insult people who are making your damn game for FREE. Some of the PS people are taking 100's of hours of their life into making it. Just because you played ct matter more then others but most of us especially the ps people have a vision. It should be balanced through the better and feedback via forums and such with finding a common ground. People like you ruin it for everyone else and make it so they can't say as much if people would just chill. They aren't ubisoft they don't have millions of dollars in a budget so please chill.
BTW could i be the xbox Community manager?
JK but i am telling everyone on xbox who still plays ct(a lot actually, i'm making a website to recreate gamebattles for splinter cell ct and will add a link to here its gona be sweet) despite what you pc people may think of us we love the game just as much and play it a ton even though it is a different game.
1. I have nothing against consoles
2. unfortunately this game is not for xbox
i talked to binary and he told me the dev team was well aware who of them got more experience so i hope im worried for no reason.
what i still consider usefull is giving read-only access to the dev forums for some good players so that if there's a flaw in something it's more likely to be detected in an early stage. it wouldn't disturb anyone and stash away the worries instantly.
Gawain, we are all waiting impatiently for revealing new stuff. No need to use tricks like this to get more info :)
i'm waiting impatiently to play it, not to see details. there's way more entertaining vids/music/art/articles etc on the internet. the only thing i'm somewhat interested besides helping to make this a great gaming experience is to learn something about the development of a game.
To play the game were gonna have to waaait for long. Its a pity we dont have any knowledge about overall progress. Im not talking about details but it would be nice if people could know that something is moving forward...
BTW. SCC has been postponed to the 2nd quarter of financial year. It means we wont see it in march and possible delay is 4 months. If its gonna be like this PS can come out first. :)
i don't give a crap about new ubi games, i won't even play the demo or read a review.
well im curious about what they indend to do. Such a long delay could mean that they want to change something drastically...perhaps MP ?
I just want to point out that the Join Us Forum should be a bit different than all the others. As the sticky says:
This isn't a regular forum. Please keep these threads tidy and don't comment on everyone's portfolio unless you're on the pre-production team. Thank you.
Quote from: neth on November 21, 2007, 12:49:50 PM
1. I have nothing against consoles
2. unfortunately this game is not for xbox
They can't make it for xbox and wouldn't want that even if they could(which they can't). Its a unreal 3 mod. Big difference and I know that, I'm not retarded. I'm telling people about the unreal 3 mod and they need a computer to play it and unreal 3.