Have you guys ever thought about making chaff nades or some other kind of nade disable frag grenades? What if a spy were to throw a chaff nade at his feet and a merc were to shoot a frag at the spy's feet? Should you make the chaff nade disable the frag grenade?
I know that this isn't realistic at all but it could prove useful once people get the hang of it.
Frags are the most overused gadget in the game next to sticky cams. It could even reduce the number of frags being carried and increase the numbers of others. Maybe not a whole lot though, due to the fact that not everyone brings chaff and not everyone will be skilled enough to use chaff on nades. Even so.
This could also limit the range that people using uzi/shotty have, for all you complaining about it.
Note that this isn't a big addition to gameplay at all but it could be interesting.
Scenario: A merc fires a nade at your feet, you quickly throw a chaff to the ground right before it detonates and you're saved.
But this also could save you if you are hacking. A merc would throw a nade into the area you are hacking and you already have a chaff going on rendering the nade to nothing. But what about if the chaff runs out it explodes then? There is so much possibilities.
This would need some testing just to be sure. I was just thinking that this might be an interesting feature.
Another thing that you could do is make a Pulse Grenade. By Pulse Grenade I mean that when it fires it releases a non harmful but forceful pulse pushing things in its detonation area away from it.
Say a mercenary fires a frag at your feet, but you being the smart spy you are throw a pulse grenade at the ground. The frag is still live but it gets thrown in a different direction by the forceful pulse. Now this could be funny! Imagine throwing one of those and bouncing a frag at the merc who fired it! Lol now that would be awesome.
It shouldn't disable electric devices whatsoever, but maybe it could slide those devices down the wall about 4 feet or so. Imagine pushing a mine into your own teammate and having him blow up :D
We would still have to discuss a few mechanics of it. Like:
Will it push the spy who threw it away?
Will it push mercenaries back a feet or two?
Will it push mines to a different position on a wall?
Will it push spy traps?
Will it push flares?
I would say yes for all of them if possible, but we should all discuss it as a group.
No flaming.
NOTE that this would need testing and could frustrate the merc at times.
Discuss.....
Yes no maybe so? Give your reasons why.
I have no problem with frags being the most overused gadget of mercs. So that's why I say no to this idea.
I think always being safe from nades while hacking sounds overpowered...
Not really, a good merc will first throw a nade to stop you hacking, and then finish you by snipe.
1 second more for the spy isn't going to change much, and it may even balance the winning ratios, so i say yes to this.
Yay for new ideas.
I think the chaff one is nice, but maybe overpowered. We can probably test it.
What would the other use of the pulse grenade be? They always have 2 uses. This one only seems to have 1.
Knock a merc down for 0 seconds (gets up as soon as the fall animation ends) and makes them invunerable to tazer for 15 seconds.
i say no to both, even if they are quite inventive.
the natural counter to frags is moving away. i don't want more gadget counters gadget stuff like we already have with smoke <> mask.
lol just had to think of pulse nade jumps like rocket jumps in quake or bio rifle jumps in ut XD
im not sure if these ideas would make the game balanced. How about a device (put on wall or ground like modem) which would make the room much darker. That could also be a pulse grenade.
I think it's a bad idea.
If a merc throws a nade at you, it means you failed at your job as a spy to conceal your presence and you deserve to die.
^agree.
Why would you want to disable the merc only way of getting you when your out of reach and behind cover?
Quote from: Overstatement on November 27, 2007, 11:54:24 PM
If a merc throws a nade at you, it means you failed at your job as a spy to conceal your presence and you deserve to die.
Buff chaff??? :D :o
Okay, this is what discussion is for. I think that the frag should only be disabled for however long the little particles float around, then the frag will blow up. Maybe the frag would have to be in the chaff for a second or two to become disabled, that way, the chaff won't disable it everytime but still give the spy a worthy defense on maps like steel squat. But I do agree that if a merc throws a nade at you then kind of deserve to die anyways. Maybe the pulse grenade idea is better. I was suggesting chaff disabling frags because this wouldn't happen too often but it would add some interesting new elements to the game.
Flash nade doesn't have two uses that I can think of, only for blinding mercs. But this pulse nade has a good use. It could be used for slowing mercs down since we could make it push them back a few feet, and it bounces frags/flares away. Think of a 1 or 2 second bubble shield from halo 3 ( I know I'm using too many examples and ideas from halo 3 but whatever ) The pulse nade would be for the quick thinking players with good reflexes. If it isn't possible to roll away at the time ( eg you just rolled, you just landed, or you don't have enough speed to roll or get away from the area ) then you could throw a pulse nade at your feet and be saved from the frag.
How do you think that these could work? What mechanics would you all suggest?
The pulse grenade (or it doesn't have to be a grenade, pulse wave?) would be much better as a merc gadget to repulse spy grenades.
Edit: Repulse smoke itself?!
That is actually an okay idea. Exept for the fact that you could just turn on gas mask and gas won't really affect you. And if you repulse away a flash bang you still have a chance at getting blinded by it. Plus, you get hit by spy grenades much faster because they throw them at their feet, so I don't think you'd be able to push them away quick enough. I guess we'll have to test this because there isn't a way to tell for sure right now. I still think it would be better for spy though.
What if it dazed the merc a bit? Like made his screen a little wobbly? he can still see but it would be a little disorientating to be that close a big pulse right? I'm not combining flash with pulse just so ya know. But make it have a little affect on the merc's sight. This way, it would be useful for defending yourself from a merc as well as a frag.
Quote from: Overstatement on November 28, 2007, 03:37:44 AM
Edit: Repulse smoke itself?!
We can just give mercs little fans they can set up around the map that blow the smoke away!
No, the fans should be in the map itself. Anti-smoke zones.
Or we can make the merc flap his arms really fast.
Edit: 777th post. That's lucky, right?
I still don't like either idea. Sorry.
what if there actually were fans in the map? Like ventilation fans or something of the sort that actually did repulse smoke? That would be cool, it's possible on the engine.
On topic. Give reasons why or why not, please don't just say no.
Quote from: Overstatement on November 27, 2007, 11:54:24 PM
If a merc throws a nade at you, it means you failed at your job as a spy to conceal your presence and you deserve to die.
A little hard to conceal yourself while you're hacking though, given the merc knows exactly where you are. I don't think the frag negating chaff would be all that bad, in fact on some maps, you may actually need it.
Steel squat is the main one that comes to mind on this one, because if you don't have EAX, you can't hear the grenade being fired at you. Believe me, I know from playing the xbox version, where you don't have EAX. By the time you see the nade, you're already dead.
Now optimally I'd just like to see maps get less frag whore oriented, because right now maps make frags uber just by how they're designed. There are so many areas you can drop a frag, often times out of the spy's natural hearing range, that the spy doesn't have much of a chance. At the very least if you're sniping the spy may have a chance to see you coming.
Though making chaff block frags would be a bit too powerful I think, as chaffs are already really good. Maybe the frag blocker grenade should be something new.
I think I mentioned Steel Squat a post or two before, because on Xbox, you have absolutely no chance to get away from a frag. Plus, since EAX will be gone for PS, this might actually be necessary.
Let's talk about a map like polar base. Badly designed. Makes frags the uber gadget of the century. You can camp disc and throw a frag through the hangar window and all at the same time guard generators. W/o frags you couldn't guard hangar as well.
The person would have to place the chaff in the right spot or the frag wouldn't be affected by it. Or, if you go with the pulse nade, the person would have to time the nade drop correctly to deflect it.
This feature wouldn't totally take frags out of the game whatsoever, but it would give people a chance to survive without EAX. For example, steel squat.
I don't think we should have a gadget that specifically is a counter to another one. Atleast by giving chaff the ability to disable frags or adding pulse grenades, they have other uses as well.
WHat if you gave the spy 3 of these pulse grenades? You could defend your hacking teammate quite well by firing a few of these at him. It would back the merc up about 6-10 feet and slow him down. But this wouldn't be too overpowered because you only have 3 of these grenades and one pulse nade would push another pulse nade away when it blows. So that means you can't just bombard the guy with pulse grenades, they have to be fired wisely and not all at once. THe grenade does have other uses than deflecting frags away.
I'm not really for the idea because its a big advantage for the spy. Why not give the spy a gun? If you are going to be in that much danger that you need to throw a "chaff nade that defuses grenades," I would rather have a gun and just pop one b/w the merc's eyes.
Real clever though Papa. A+ for good ideas.
Well giving a spy a gun is a bad example, not really relevant. Pulse grenades would actually take some skill and timing to pull off correctly, I think that is the better of the two. And the only spies who get the advantages are the ones who actually bring pulse nades and use them with skill. Remember that these do take a slot lol, they force you to sacrifice a grenade or security gadget just to bring something that gives you a chance at saving your ass from a frag. I'd say that half the time I am killed by frags or mines, and the rest of the time I am killed by getting charged down or sniped. I would personally like to have a chance at reducing the amount of times I am killed by frags, which usually happens in vents or during hacking. Which brings me to my next point.
If we make spies able to throw grenades while they are crouching, or in vents, these pulse nades would be REALLY useful. Imagine all those times you were trapped in a vent with a frag 2 feet away from you. All you would have to do is use a pulse grenade! Then the frag would either go back to the merc who sent it or just further away from you. It would be balanced if mercs can shoot through vents in PS, then they have a chance to kill spies in vents.
Think about it. It could be balanced with some thought and testing. It could prove to be pretty useful, balanced, interesting, fun, and it would add to the gameplay right?
Quote from: Papa Skull on November 28, 2007, 05:27:06 AM
I think I mentioned Steel Squat a post or two before, because on Xbox, you have absolutely no chance to get away from a frag. Plus, since EAX will be gone for PS, this might actually be necessary.
Let's talk about a map like polar base. Badly designed. Makes frags the uber gadget of the century. You can camp disc and throw a frag through the hangar window and all at the same time guard generators. W/o frags you couldn't guard hangar as well.
Yeah, a lot of people here don't realize how it's going to be without EAX, since they're all spoiled by it on PC. There are certain maps, steel squat being the obvious, where you cannot hear the frag being fired, you don't hear it bounce or anything. You are simply hacking your objective, there's silence and then boom, you're dead. No warning, nothing. You're simply dead.
Really I've felt some maps are rather poorly designed since they make frags overpowered. Frags as a gadget aren't so much overpowered, as it is the map design that makes them as such. You just shouldn't have too many ways to launch frags at an objective like current maps allow.
...i play since PT without eax and i think im a low med - does eax give as much as to say i'm a hihg-med or something? i don't think so.
typical example of console players not getting the basic concepts of the game...
what kokafan? I don't really get your post. Without EAX you have NO chance at getting away from a frag most of the time. What EAX does is let you know things like this and it gives you a chance to survive a frag being launched at you. Without it, you don't have that chance. So yes, it gives you an advantage. So, this is why I'm proposing a something that has a frag counter ability and its other uses as well. But it isn't an easy grenade to use, you'd have to get good with it.
EDIT: What gawain? EAX isn't a basic concept of the game. It WON"T be in PS! US CONSOLE PLAYERS already know what that's like, to not have EAX. So really, it's how PC players don't realize what it will be like in PS.
EAX will be in PS but not used incorrectly like UBI did. It will be used the way it was originally intended.
PS EAX: The Way It's Meant To Be Heard --- nVidia parody.
Quote from: Westfall-US on November 28, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
EAX will be in PS but not used incorrectly like UBI did. It will be used the way it was originally intended.
how will it be used ?
What about the spy being able to shoot the grenade to disable it?
That would take some serious aiming skills to accomplish.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be possible on older systems, unless PS has less system requrements than it has now...
I get avg 13 FPS in UT3 demo.
How exactly will it be used correctly? The question is if you can hear frags launching or not regardless of EAX.
Quote from: Westfall-US on November 28, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
EAX will be in PS but not used incorrectly like UBI did. It will be used the way it was originally intended.
I sure hope not. What you hear should not be dependent on what sound card you have. Thats just stupid.
If EAX does anything it should just be better 3D positional audio, it shouldn't make you hear things you normally wouldn't. Ever.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 29, 2007, 03:45:24 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on November 28, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
EAX will be in PS but not used incorrectly like UBI did. It will be used the way it was originally intended.
I sure hope not. What you hear should not be dependent on what sound card you have. Thats just stupid.
If EAX does anything it should just be better 3D positional audio, it shouldn't make you hear things you normally wouldn't. Ever.
EAX is like a legal cheat right now. I think there should be no EAX at all. Theres absolutely no reason why some people should have advantage only because they have better hardware
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 29, 2007, 03:45:24 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on November 28, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
EAX will be in PS but not used incorrectly like UBI did. It will be used the way it was originally intended.
I sure hope not. What you hear should not be dependent on what sound card you have. Thats just stupid.
If EAX does anything it should just be better 3D positional audio, it shouldn't make you hear things you normally wouldn't. Ever.
Such as proxy mines?
advantage because of better hardware? stfu
if you can't afford to spend 20-60€ on a proper sound card (which is crucial for good music reproduction anyways) you shouldn't play video games but get a rl...
it's the same with mic (<10€), pointless topic.
i wonder why noone complains that some players got a better mouse etc ::)
Quote from: Gawain on November 29, 2007, 03:39:08 PM
advantage because of better hardware? stfu
if you can't afford to spend 20-60€ on a proper sound card (which is crucial for good music reproduction anyways) you shouldn't play video games but get a rl...
it's the same with mic (<10€), pointless topic.
i wonder why noone complains that some players got a better mouse etc ::)
Advantage because of better software? stfu
If you can't afford to take 2 hours to find a wallhack you shouldn't play video games but get a rl...
Quote from: Spekkio on November 29, 2007, 03:17:55 PM
Such as proxy mines?
Such as everything.
There's no reason why EAX should have you be playing an entirely different game. It's like having smoke be opaque on one graphics card but transparent on another. It's just plain stupid, and it'll be bad game design if the designers continue to give EAX the ability to hear inaudible noises. If a sound is supposed to be audible, it should be audible, if it's not supposed to be audible, then it shouldn't be audible, regardless of what hardware you happen to be running.
Guys, EAX works well normally. It's just that the EAX in SCCT isn't working well. I have a SoundBlaster Live! soundcard and it supports EAX 2 I believe. And it's like 5-6 years old. So I'd reckon getting one is really cheap.
If you want anything like a legal cheat in a video game then stfu. You shouldn't play video games. That's an oxymoron, Legal Cheat. That's like saying legal crime, it doesn't make sense. It should be illegal, it shouldn't help you.
in ct you hear way too less with eax disabled and way too much with eax enabled.
Exactly. And if you can't hear a frag being fired with EAX in PS then you should give spy something that can counter frags. On console you don't have EAX. On steel squat you are basically screwed the second you see a frag come in through the window because you can't hear it being fired. If you can't hear frags in PS, you should either make chaff disable frags or give spies Pulse nades.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 29, 2007, 03:17:55 PM
Such as proxy mines?
If youre talking about this bug, its a CT bug not a PS bug.
Quote from: Gawain on November 29, 2007, 03:39:08 PM
advantage because of better hardware? stfu
if you can't afford to spend 20-60€ on a proper sound card (which is crucial for good music reproduction anyways) you shouldn't play video games but get a rl...
it's the same with mic (<10€), pointless topic.
i wonder why noone complains that some players got a better mouse etc ::)
I dont have to buy anything, I can just enter random site with cheats and download some.
In that case You pay, I dont, so who's the loser ?
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on November 29, 2007, 03:54:43 PM
Advantage because of better software? stfu
If you can't afford to take 2 hours to find a wallhack you shouldn't play video games but get a rl...
Thats the point.
Quote from: frvge on November 29, 2007, 05:30:24 PM
Guys, EAX works well normally. It's just that the EAX in SCCT isn't working well. I have a SoundBlaster Live! soundcard and it supports EAX 2 I believe. And it's like 5-6 years old. So I'd reckon getting one is really cheap.
Could you please let me see through walls, thanks to my graphics card? If you think its unfair, you can always buy one.
This is completely rubbish, you could just screw EAX and make ALL people hear same things no matter what card they have, but no! Because YOU have soundcard with EAX its VERY FAIR that it will be implemented.
I agree with Neth.
Guys, EAX is in ALL games of the last 7 years. It's standard.
From Tombraider to Hitman to Crysis. And I don't hear you about that. Only about the buggy implementation of CT.
A soundcard ENHANCES sound. It makes it better.
In theory, people without a soundcard should still hear the same. But at less quality.
Currently, most motherboards have built-in EAX 2 or something. The AC97-chip has it I believe.
Well actually I think it only matters WHAT you hear with the soundcard and not how well you hear it.
UT3 uses OpenAL, not EAX.
Quote from: frvge on November 30, 2007, 01:34:42 AM
In theory, people without a soundcard should still hear the same. But at less quality.
Exactly.
Quote from: MR.Mic on November 30, 2007, 03:04:09 AM
UT3 uses OpenAL, not EAX.
EAX are extentions to OpenAL, mostly owned by Creative. But it's an open standard.
I can use EAX in my own OpenAL programs.
Quote from: frvge on November 30, 2007, 01:34:42 AM
In theory, people without a soundcard should still hear the same. But at less quality.
People without soundcards wouldn't hear anything at all...?
Not to say that virtually all motherboards nowdays doesn't come with a build-in sound card :P
a sound card that supports eax 3.0 (and probably 5.0) should be in every gaming rig, end of discussion.
there's no need to implement crap like chaff disabling frags or pulse grenades ffs. simply let spies hear the sound or let them change their gaming style.
Quote from: frvge on November 30, 2007, 01:34:42 AM
Guys, EAX is in ALL games of the last 7 years. It's standard.
From Tombraider to Hitman to Crysis. And I don't hear you about that.
CT or PS are different, what you hear is 100 times more important than in these mentioned games.
k... Thief 2: The Metal Age also had EAX 1 or 2 I presume. That's the ancestor of SC1.
Quote from: Gawain on November 30, 2007, 12:37:47 PM
a sound card that supports eax 3.0 (and probably 5.0) should be in every gaming rig, end of discussion.
there's no need to implement crap like chaff disabling frags or pulse grenades ffs. simply let spies hear the sound or let them change their gaming style.
That's the whole fucking question! Will you let spies hear them with EAX? IF NOT, then put in pulse nades or some kind of counter to frags.
The question is what you will let spies hear not how well they can hear it. Don't let mercs hear camo on eax, and if you don't let spies hear frags being fired then they WILL need some sort of counter. Take it from someone who has dealt with it for years on console.
Quote from: neth on November 30, 2007, 12:51:44 PM
Quote from: frvge on November 30, 2007, 01:34:42 AM
Guys, EAX is in ALL games of the last 7 years. It's standard.
From Tombraider to Hitman to Crysis. And I don't hear you about that.
CT or PS are different, what you hear is 100 times more important than in these mentioned games.
Yeah, I actually hear that in Battlefield 2 EAX gives you superman ears too. It's just that in most FPS, it doesn't matter as much. Those games are more about twitch skills rather than any kind of recon gathering ability. So hearing the enemy soldier coming doesn't help you that much, because the game isn't' finding him, it's killing him.
The same cannot be said for the gameplay in Project stealth. Being able to hear or not hear a sound is as import as having or not having a sound reticule or the ability to see security failures.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102002
Add it to your X-Mas list.
Part of the challenge of making games for PC is making the game run the same on all hardware platforms. If the game fails to do this, such as the discrepancy between those with and without Creative Labs Sound Cards in CT, then it is the developer's fault. To equate the use of EAX with cheating is absurd. EAX is a built-in function of the game, and while poor, is an option available to everyone. To actually use a wallhack, the player has to search the internet for a program that will hack into the game code and change it so that he can see through walls.
I think that we can safely assume that the PS team will take great measures to ensure that PS runs the same on all hardware configurations. In the meantime, stop making absurd comparisons between using built-in game options and cheating.
Quote from: Spekkio on November 30, 2007, 08:59:14 PMTo actually use a wallhack, the player has to search the internet for a program that will hack into the game code and change it so that he can see through walls.
And to use EAX, the player has to search the computer shops for a piece of hardware that will allow him to unlock a piece of the code otherwise not available to him.
The only difference is that cheating doesn't cost money ;D
omgzers blatently add a grenade indicator like call of duty!!!!11one!!1!
NOES, we'd be sued and be 0mgwtfpwn3d by CoD-l4wy3r5
Actually the idea is ok, but it'd change gameplay too much.
Quote from: Cyntrox on November 30, 2007, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on November 30, 2007, 08:59:14 PMTo actually use a wallhack, the player has to search the internet for a program that will hack into the game code and change it so that he can see through walls.
And to use EAX, the player has to search the computer shops for a piece of hardware that will allow him to unlock a piece of the code otherwise not available to him.
The only difference is that cheating doesn't cost money ;D
This is why some people should check the specs of the game before picking it up:
QuoteSound Card: DirectX 9.0c-compliant sound card (EAX 2.0 or higher recommended)
This is on the box and on the website. Its not cheating if its in the minimum requirements to play the game. They don't recommend this shit for people to just pass by it. It will make the gameplay better for you. Case closed.