i did a little experiment and played some games with eax disabled. spekkio is right that eax fixes more problems than it creates. the biggest balance problem i encountered was the inability to hear the placing of sticky cams and the launching of frag nades. on the other hand, the biggest problems with eax superhearing is that you can't use hbs (without snares) without giving away your position if a merc is in it's range (silent pull out/no laser). the object of this topic is to create a list of what you should / shoudln't be able to hear to give a gross idea how to implement eax the right way.
Quote from: Gawain on December 02, 2007, 03:35:47 PM
nability to hear the placing of sticky cams and the launching of frag nades
I play without eax and i can hear those perfectly, in a ~20 meter radius.
If you do something that would normally make noise in real life, and the merc is relatively close to you, then yes he should hear it. If you take out the HB sensor from 5 ft away from the merc, he should hear it. However, mercs shouldn't be able to hear someone rolling in a vent or sliding down a pole from anywhere on the map. That's just dumb.
Things you need to hear:
-Placing of sticky cam near you (moderate radius)
-Frags being launched (large radius)
-Sticky shocker being fired (relatively short hearing radius)
-Things blowing up (large radius)
-Merc footsteps (moderate radius)
Things you shouldn't hear:
-Spy drawing a gun silently.
-Spy motions (unless it pings the reticule, or you're *very* close)
-Camo activation (camo needs to be silent otherwise it sucks)
Generally if a spy doesn't ping the reticule, he shouldn't be heard via normal sound, with the exception of firing the sticky shocker or the gadget launcher.
Agree with invisible. The decisions made on EAX could render my pulse nade or chaff suggestion useless. Glad we can discuss this.
Spekkio, you are wrong. This game isn't real life, once again.
Spekkio is right. Sound SHOULD be realistic.
I think spekkio would agree with invisible man because those sound like realistic goals. Your not gunna hear everything that happens on the map, or really two rooms down or whatever, the sound should be designed so that its fair for both parties and also so that one person doesn't solely rely on sound as a means to finding a spy/merc.
sticky shocker being fired should be moderate-far
sticky cam being placed should be moderate-far
the sound environment should be rather realistic. there's still enough room for balancing since no one knows how loud a sticky shocker is etc
gameplay should force players to rely on both audio and visual, on should not overpower the other. ie. you can hear everything that goes on, or have extensive vision modes.
let the merc Hear EVERYTHING in a 5 meter radius, while anything >5 meter stays on what Invisible said.
sounds convincing. The problem is when things happen in a room opposite of you, should you still be able to hear it?
No. EAX occlusion makes you hear through thin wooden doors, but not through 1 meter thick concrete walls. That's the power of EAX.
Balance over realism.
Papa, I think realism will equate to balance naturally, and if not then of course it should be tweaked.
imo cams should be audible only from close distance. They need a buff cause now theyre kinda useless.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 02, 2007, 09:09:46 PM
Things you need to hear:
-Placing of sticky cam near you (moderate radius)
-Frags being launched (large radius)
-Sticky shocker being fired (relatively short hearing radius)
-Things blowing up (large radius)
-Merc footsteps (moderate radius)
Things you shouldn't hear:
-Spy drawing a gun silently.
-Spy motions (unless it pings the reticule, or you're *very* close)
-Camo activation (camo needs to be silent otherwise it sucks)
Generally if a spy doesn't ping the reticule, he shouldn't be heard via normal sound, with the exception of firing the sticky shocker or the gadget launcher.
I agree mostly. What I don't agree with is that the spy must ping the reticle for you to hear the noise audibly. The way I see it, there is a "threshold" for the sound detector that will ping it if crossed. Some actions aren't loud enough to do that, but can still be heard if the merc is close. These include rolling, drawing your gun, dropping to the ground when crouched, using camo, or moving quickly on loud surfaces like vents or shallow water. And yes, some level of realism/common sense has to be used when determining what constitutes a "loud surface."
The problem arises when the merc can hear these things from quite a distance away, which leaves players stumped as to how the merc found them. Basically, what I think needs to be fixed in PS isn't WHAT you hear, but WHERE you hear it.
Now, you might say "but these distances seem arbitrary and thus complicate the game too much!" But wait! All you have to do is tweak the spy's radar to reflect the audible range differences. Have a circular line for short, medium, and far radiuses. If you are using HB or have a merc marked on bullet and he's in the medium radius, then you know it's safe to draw your gun, but not safe to roll around. If he's beyond the radar's large radius (which would be the end of the radar), you know that you could make all the noise in the world and the merc won't find you.
Of course, I also think that you should not be able to hear stuff on another floor. For example, a merc on lower level of club should not be able to hear a spy shoot out vents on the upper level.
The problem with EAX is BOTH what you hear and where you hear it.
Spekkio pretty much said it all. HB sensor should be heard when it is drawn from a distance that could be heard normally. Unless you can create a speed for pulling out your gun. But is that really necessary?
Again everyone, think about balance before realism. I know I've already said that but before you suggest something be sure it would improve balance on both sides.
Spy making a noise because he is pulling out his HB sensor in a distance audible to the merc is both realistic and balanced.
Im not really sure if spy should be punished for scanning the area.
How is it balanced? All the guy has to do is turn on emf and he's found the guy with hearbeat. Since he can hear him pull it out, that's all he has to do to find him.
Quote from: neth on December 03, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
Im not really sure if spy should be punished for scanning the area.
Yeah, I mean the HBS is a device used specifically to find and avoid mercs. I can see hearing things like sticky cams or even spy bullets/snares, but the HBS, like camo, is a stealth tool. If it gives away your location, then it's usefulness is seriously compromised. And out of everything, stealth tools need to be defended in PS.
And really, I can't think of a great balance reason why pulling out your gun (w/o laser) should be audible.
Now I suppose we could just make it audible to a very short range, but I don't know if I see the point.
There are some motions, like rolling in a vent which I think maybe should be audible, since rolling is faster and therefore should increase your chance of being detected, it should have a drawback. But regular spy footsteps on stealth mode should never be detected (regardless of surface), and landing after a jump also shouldn't make sound unless it pings the reticule.
I still don't know if rolling (not diving) is faster =/ I checked a few times and it's either the same or slower.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 03, 2007, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: neth on December 03, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
Im not really sure if spy should be punished for scanning the area.
Yeah, I mean the HBS is a device used specifically to find and avoid mercs. I can see hearing things like sticky cams or even spy bullets/snares, but the HBS, like camo, is a stealth tool. If it gives away your location, then it's usefulness is seriously compromised. And out of everything, stealth tools need to be defended in PS.
And really, I can't think of a great balance reason why pulling out your gun (w/o laser) should be audible.
Now I suppose we could just make it audible to a very short range, but I don't know if I see the point.
There are some motions, like rolling in a vent which I think maybe should be audible, since rolling is faster and therefore should increase your chance of being detected, it should have a drawback. But regular spy footsteps on stealth mode should never be detected (regardless of surface), and landing after a jump also shouldn't make sound unless it pings the reticule.
QFE
In CT its harder to play stealthy and thats why IMO stealthy players need buff. As Invisibleman said above mercs wont suffer if they dont hear pulling out a gun, hbs, camo or stealth landing.
Well, stealth players ARE getting a buff just by the way that maps are going to be designed. AFAIK they will be as dark as PT and darker than CT. I agree though, hbs and your gun should be audible at about 10 feet. Who's going to pull out their gun when they are that close to merc's anyways? Of course I mean other than when you want to sticky cam him or something. But if you are that close to a merc and he doesn't know you are there then you should be able to grab him anyways.
Quote from: neth on December 03, 2007, 12:51:21 AM
imo cams should be audible only from close distance. They need a buff cause now theyre kinda useless.
omg stfu cams decide most games atm
imo taking cams is dumb since all mercs take gasmask, so if you don't have smokes or cams you make them waste an eq slot.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 03, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
imo taking cams is dumb since all mercs take gasmask, so if you don't have smokes or cams you make them waste an eq slot.
thats about gamestyle. Often its impossible to set a trap with cam, cause theyre well audible from very far, which makes them useless in these situations.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 03, 2007, 06:28:03 PM
imo taking cams is dumb since all mercs take gasmask, so if you don't have smokes or cams you make them waste an eq slot.
You must be new. Welcome.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 03, 2007, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: neth on December 03, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
Im not really sure if spy should be punished for scanning the area.
Yeah, I mean the HBS is a device used specifically to find and avoid mercs. I can see hearing things like sticky cams or even spy bullets/snares, but the HBS, like camo, is a stealth tool. If it gives away your location, then it's usefulness is seriously compromised. And out of everything, stealth tools need to be defended in PS.
And really, I can't think of a great balance reason why pulling out your gun (w/o laser) should be audible.
Now I suppose we could just make it audible to a very short range, but I don't know if I see the point.
There are some motions, like rolling in a vent which I think maybe should be audible, since rolling is faster and therefore should increase your chance of being detected, it should have a drawback. But regular spy footsteps on stealth mode should never be detected (regardless of surface), and landing after a jump also shouldn't make sound unless it pings the reticule.
Spekkio's idea was perfect, with the rings around the radar. A spy being careless and pulling out his gun with a merc. nearby because he wants to check the surrounding area is his own fault. Thats not stealthy at all. I agree that camo should be silent. Whipping out your gun for anything should have an audible noise heard within a certain distance.
Make a slower motion for pulling out the gun if you want it more stealthy. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't make sense to eliminate the sound. Like some1 said, its not a big deal for the mercs to hear it, so what are you afraid of. Don't be careless in your stealthy ways. If you can't hear the merc anywhere, then you're probably safe.
The only drawback I see from this is that the radar is small. With the circles inside for audibility purposes, it actually balances it out.
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 03, 2007, 06:44:11 PM
The only drawback I see from this is that the radar is small. With the circles inside for audibility purposes, it actually balances it out.
With good scale it wouldnt be a problem. There could also be other huds informing how close the merc is - on spy's suit or wpn.
i like the idea of a sound range indicator on the radar, but walls etc should play a role, too.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 03, 2007, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: neth on December 03, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
Im not really sure if spy should be punished for scanning the area.
Yeah, I mean the HBS is a device used specifically to find and avoid mercs. I can see hearing things like sticky cams or even spy bullets/snares, but the HBS, like camo, is a stealth tool. If it gives away your location, then it's usefulness is seriously compromised. And out of everything, stealth tools need to be defended in PS.
And really, I can't think of a great balance reason why pulling out your gun (w/o laser) should be audible.
Now I suppose we could just make it audible to a very short range, but I don't know if I see the point.
There are some motions, like rolling in a vent which I think maybe should be audible, since rolling is faster and therefore should increase your chance of being detected, it should have a drawback. But regular spy footsteps on stealth mode should never be detected (regardless of surface), and landing after a jump also shouldn't make sound unless it pings the reticule.
Why should spies be allowed to use their equipment freely with no risk of detection?
The range I would suggest for hearing this would be relatively short. For example, there's a spy around the corner who wants to cam you about 3 virtual meters away.
The same thing goes for camo; the radius I would suggest for detecting camo, at least initially, would be the "short" radius. If you take away the noise entirely, you will have people activating it at the very last second to try and get necks. That is going to make it overpowered, and will also take away any sort of planning for its use.
Snares/bullets/HB/cams/camo/mines/spy traps and to a lesser extent mask ought to require some planning on the player's part to make them effective.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 04, 2007, 12:25:52 AMSnares/bullets/HB/cams/camo/mines/spy traps and to a lesser extent mask ought to require some planning on the player's part to make them effective.
QFE.
I would also add that "loud" surfaces such as vents, sand, and shallow water add more dynamic to the game that can be developed further through new maps and UT3s engine.
IMO
HBS - no sound
camo - 2metres
cams - medium range, but not through walls
snares - 2metres
Quote from: Spekkio on December 04, 2007, 12:25:52 AM
Why should spies be allowed to use their equipment freely with no risk of detection?
If it's stealth gear, why shouldn't they?
There's certainly a good argument for why aggro gear needs to be heard, like cams and such. But something passive like camo or heartbeat? it seems to exist only to screw over a spy.
Quote
The same thing goes for camo; the radius I would suggest for detecting camo, at least initially, would be the "short" radius. If you take away the noise entirely, you will have people activating it at the very last second to try and get necks. That is going to make it overpowered, and will also take away any sort of planning for its use.
I seriously doubt camo is going to own the game. I never played with EAX, and I always found it easy enough to spot camo. I say lets make camo silent and consider adding a sound effect if it gets out of hand.
Quote
Snares/bullets/HB/cams/camo/mines/spy traps and to a lesser extent mask ought to require some planning on the player's part to make them effective.
Well the planning for the HBS is just the fact of using it in the right direction. The fact that you have to pull your weapon out (which slows you down) is a limitation enough IMO. You can't be costantly pulling out HBS all the time if you expect to progress through the level. And of course, most of HBS skill isn't so much getting the data, so much as figuring out what to do with it. So you know the merc happens to be camping machine room, do you want to wait for him to leave or hit somewhere else? That's where the planning comes in.
If you happen to give yourself away before you even get enough information to set up a plan. Then it's not really a planning game, it's just an instance where you got boned by bad luck. And that's not particularly fun.
a gentle noise for silent gun pulling and camo activation is necessary for the gameplay. if you don't know that the merc is 3m next to you and you get detected because of this you did no sufficient recon in the first place or got a lack of attention.
Quote from: Gawain on December 04, 2007, 07:43:14 PM
a gentle noise for silent gun pulling and camo activation is necessary for the gameplay. if you don't know that the merc is 3m next to you and you get detected because of this you did no sufficient recon in the first place or got a lack of attention.
The gun pulling, I could maybe see, just due to quickcams... but as far as camo goes, I don't see any reason to have that make noise at all. I just can't see camo dominating the game even if it was 100% quiet. I mean you can't run around while in camo anyway, and if you move it produces a motion blur that's visible to a merc standing close by you. Really it's only useful if you happen to move out of the corner of his eye or you're behind him. Of course, if you're behind him, he won't see you anyway.
I'm not really sure why everyone is afraid of camo. Even if you can't hear it, it's still not even that great.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 04, 2007, 07:56:35 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 04, 2007, 07:43:14 PM
a gentle noise for silent gun pulling and camo activation is necessary for the gameplay. if you don't know that the merc is 3m next to you and you get detected because of this you did no sufficient recon in the first place or got a lack of attention.
The gun pulling, I could maybe see, just due to quickcams... but as far as camo goes, I don't see any reason to have that make noise at all. I just can't see camo dominating the game even if it was 100% quiet. I mean you can't run around while in camo anyway, and if you move it produces a motion blur that's visible to a merc standing close by you. Really it's only useful if you happen to move out of the corner of his eye or you're behind him. Of course, if you're behind him, he won't see you anyway.
I'm not really sure why everyone is afraid of camo. Even if you can't hear it, it's still not even that great.
After all this I change my opinion, theres no reason to hear camo. If a merc cant see camo from such a close distance, he should l2p
no camo sound at all dumbs this gadget down to a going-for-necks and activate-whenever-i-want-to gadget. it's main purpose is to help you hide/pass small light areas in mid-large distances. i think the devs will be clever enough to decrease it's visibility in mid-range and get rid of eax superhearing, that's really all the boost it needs (+with no more eax ghosting people won't emf whore that much).
Quote from: neth on December 04, 2007, 12:15:44 PM
IMO
HBS - no sound
camo - 2metres
cams - medium range, but not through walls
snares - 2metres
2 meters is almost nothing, you know.
If you cant see an activated camo from 0,5 when youre checking corners, thats your problem. Sound is not necessary.
I don't feel sound is necessary for camo.
gun pull-out is still a yes.
Quote from: neth on December 05, 2007, 12:00:19 AM
If you cant see an activated camo from 0,5 when youre checking corners, thats your problem. Sound is not necessary.
Yeah seriously. Is there anyone on this board saying they can't see camo when activated at point blank range?
tell me one good reason why we should dumb down camo...
camo = stealthy, harmless gadget. It cant affect the merc directly like ss or cam. Thats a reason why ss can be audible and camo shouldnt be
Quote from: neth on December 05, 2007, 04:06:00 PM
camo = stealthy, harmless gadget. It cant affect the merc directly like ss or cam. Thats a reason why ss can be audible and camo shouldnt be
if the devs do their job, camo won't be harmless.
going for necks with camo is directly affects the mercs.
using hbs doesn't affect anyone.
Nope. Camo is harmless, breaking necks is harmful. Camo does not give you harmful effect.
Indeed, Neth, it makes it easier just like HBS makes it easier to know where a merc is, which in turn makes it easier to attack him/take an objective. If you're saying that camo kills, then you're saying that HBS does objectives.
Agree with Neth and Cyntrox on this one. Camo shouldn't make sound, maybe at REALLY close range like 5 feet or so. Who's going to take the time to switch on camo that close though when you can go for the neck if you are already unseen anyways?
Hopefully you guys fix camo, it's a useless item on console because 360 users see a bright green outline around the person using camo. OF COURSE IT NEVER GOT FIXED!! Ubi can go to hell. Basically, everyone on console was forced to stop using it unless you knew that the mercs were only playing on regular xbox.
tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.
Quote from: Gawain on December 06, 2007, 12:24:33 AM
tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.
I hate the idea of a stealth gadget giving away your position. That's stupid.
Give me one good reason why you should be able to hear camo activation at all. I mean, are you saying you are unable to see a camoed spy within 3 meters?
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 06, 2007, 12:55:06 AM
Quote from: Gawain on December 06, 2007, 12:24:33 AM
tell me one good reason why a merc shouldn't hear camo activation within 3m.
I hate the idea of a stealth gadget giving away your position. That's stupid.
Give me one good reason why you should be able to hear camo activation at all. I mean, are you saying you are unable to see a camoed spy within 3 meters?
How about this:
Anything that gives you an advantage has to come with a disadvantage. Camo makes you much less detectable visually, so it needs to have some sort of a downfall, particularly if the devs are going to do something like make it not set off MT while going quickly. That downfall is that if you activate it too carelessly, you will be heard.
Again, no one is saying that you should hear camo across the map like you do now. We're saying that you should hear it if you're close to the spy. "Stealth equipment" does not mean you can mindlessly activate it anywhere without worrying that the merc might hear or see you.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 01:15:11 AM
Anything that gives you an advantage has to come with a disadvantage. Camo makes you much less detectable visually, so it needs to have some sort of a downfall, particularly if the devs are going to do something like make it not set off MT while going quickly. That downfall is that if you activate it too carelessly, you will be heard.
Camo already has a few drawbacks. It drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly) and it also makes you visible on EMF. The energy drain alone basically prevents you from carelessly using it everywhere. If you don't use it with the right timing, you end up draining your energy reserves and having camo possibly fail on you at the wrong time. Further, camo prevents you from running, also another drawback.
I don't really see the need to give it more drawbacks than that.
Why is it that you guys expect camo to suddenly dominate the game or something because you can't hear it with EAX across the level? I've been playing without EAX since CT came out and I have never had a problem with camo. I don't hear camo when people use it. At all. In fact, I still consider camo an underpowered gadget.
Whatever you expect is going to happen with silent camo isn't going to. I've played for all this time and have not once seen a single instance where silent camo was anywhere close to being overpowered. The fact is that you can see a camoed spy at close range anyway. Hearing it isn't even remotely needed for balance. It's a nerf to an already underpowered gadget.
Agreed invisible. It already has drawbacks. It doesn't make you invisible. In fact, it lights you up like a christmas tree with EMF whoring mercs. You can't use it anywhere, you can't use it while moving fast, you can't use it while falling/rolling or while in the rain. It doesn't need anymore downsides.
QuoteIt drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly)
If it is 100% silent, it might as well not drain energy because you won't activate it until a merc is close enough that he might see you anyway.
Quoteit also makes you visible on EMF
And theoretically, if the devs are using the suggestions, makes you completely invisible on MT and almost invisible on normal vision.
And whoever said EMF-whoring: how do you know that we're going to be able to see emf ghosts in PS? Also, if you see a merc in EMF, just don't turn on camo. Problem solved.
QuoteWhy is it that you guys expect camo to suddenly dominate the game or something because you can't hear it with EAX across the level? I've been playing without EAX since CT came out and I have never had a problem with camo.
You must not be playing people good with camo then. I've actually played some guys, like seefoo, who use camo effectively despite the fact that I have eax. It can be done.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
It drains energy (meaning you can't activate it carelessly)
If it is 100% silent, it might as well not drain energy because you won't activate it until a merc is close enough that he might see you anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, if you can time it such that the moment the merc rounds the corner you activate camo, great. That's a tough skill to master though. It doesn't do you any good to activate camo after you've been spotted already, so if you want to have this split second timing, you better be damn good at it. Otherwise the merc sees you suddenly turn invisible and flicks on EMF or the laser. And you're just screwed.
QuoteAnd theoretically, if the devs are using the suggestions, makes you completely invisible on MT and almost invisible on normal vision.
Well I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.
And even if camo helps against MT, hearing it at close range won't do much good. Most of the time, if you get that close, the merc can either see you anyway, or isn't looking in your direction. So, the merc is either going to check your hiding spot and see you regardless of camo (since camo is easy to spot at point blank range), or he's going to blindly run past, while you then neck him or sneak past after he passes. If the spy is that close to you, and you're looking at him, you can see him with normal vision, even if he does have camo on. Using camo in this equation changes nothing, and I'm not even sure why you're up in arms about it, thinking it'll be incredibly broken. It's just a matter of the merc either looking toward you or not looking toward you.
Camo in this equation isn't helping you to activate at close range. In fact, under your system, it's actually hurting you, since you're creating the presence detector blip that says you're within 3 meters of the merc.
QuoteAlso, if you see a merc in EMF, just don't turn on camo. Problem solved.
You make a lot of assumptions about a spy's recon abilities. How is it that the spy magically knows what vision you're in and can activate or not activate camo instantly before the merc happens to see him?
QuoteYou must not be playing people good with camo then. I've actually played some guys, like seefoo, who use camo effectively despite the fact that I have eax. It can be done.
Maybe, but one rare case of awesome skill doesn't mean the gadget is balanced. Just because you get killed by a really good player using the pistol in Doom doesn't mean that the pistol is anywhere near competitive with the other weapons in the game.
So few people use camo effectively, that it pretty much says that it probably needs a boost.
Lets actually wait until camo dominates the game before nerfing it.
QuoteYou make a lot of assumptions about a spy's recon abilities. How is it that the spy magically knows what vision you're in and can activate or not activate camo instantly before the merc happens to see him?
99.9% of the time, I know where the mercs are. Additionally, a third person camera allows you to look around corners and see which vision the merc is using. If it's blue, you leave camo off. If it's yellow, you turn camo on. This is mindless, and gives you pretty much an auto-counter to whatever the merc is using.
And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.
At least if it made noise within a short radius, you would have to consider the risk of actually being detected.
QuoteWell I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.
I do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.
QuoteAnd even if camo helps against MT, hearing it at close range won't do much good. Most of the time, if you get that close, the merc can either see you anyway, or isn't looking in your direction.
You should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.
QuoteCamo in this equation isn't helping you to activate at close range. In fact, under your system, it's actually hurting you, since you're creating the presence detector blip that says you're within 3 meters of the merc.
Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.
Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.
Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.
QuoteMaybe, but one rare case of awesome skill doesn't mean the gadget is balanced. Just because you get killed by a really good player using the pistol in Doom doesn't mean that the pistol is anywhere near competitive with the other weapons in the game.
I never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.
i'm of the same opinion like spekkio here.
btw i mentioned emf whoring because with no more emf ghosting people are less likely to run around in emf vision resulting in a little boost for camo.
If mercs can hear camo then they will turn on EMF as soon as they hear it, resulting in a BIG nerf for camo. I say nay to camo making a sound.
Uhh, that's the point.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 06, 2007, 05:35:57 PM
Well I don't think camo should have any effect on MT (assuming we use Mr.Mic's MT version). If you move you're detected. The faster you move, the more visible you are. Standing still makes you invisible. Adding camo to that will probably just confuse people.
I hope mt wont detect camo, why should 2 visions do it ? Its another thing to prevent people whoring MT
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 09:26:54 PM
Uhh, that's the point.
hard to keep a positive attitude with this ignorant folks, isn't it? ^^
Quote from: Gawain on December 06, 2007, 11:26:15 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 09:26:54 PM
Uhh, that's the point.
hard to keep a positive attitude with this ignorant folks, isn't it? ^^
Who said that?
Quote from: neth on December 06, 2007, 09:43:30 PM
I hope mt wont detect camo, why should 2 visions do it ? Its another thing to prevent people whoring MT
I second that.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 05:50:14 PM
And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.
If the merc doesn't have his flashlight or laser on and walking through darkness, whose fault is that?
QuoteI do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.
Well, I don't think that fast crouching should set off an MT box. It should make you visible to MT (using the Mr.Mic system), but only if the merc is actually looking at you. So you can always wait for him to turn his back and then fast crouch past a spot.
The MT box should only happen if the spy is running.
QuoteYou should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.
All I can say is that I've never had troulbe seeing camo on PC. On Xbox it's a bit more powerful because your screen resolution is lower, so you may miss some fine details. but on PC, it was pretty easy to spot. You just needed to use your flashlight along wtih normal vision.
If you're a merc who doesn't turn on his flashlight and a spy with camo surprises you, well that's your own fault for not using a tool which could have illuminated the camoed spy. I realize a lot of mercs like to keep their light off to not give away their presence, but that's a double edged sword.
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Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.
Seeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best. Most of the time it gets you killed. I'm not sure why you think it's some uber stealth move that absolutely must be stopped at all costs. Most of the time when a spy tries that, I just look and say "Oh look a stationary target." And then I shoot him dead. And no, I don't hear camo being activated. It's just pretty obvious to see a spy most of the time.
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Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.
Yeah, it kinda helps if you can cloak yourself while standing still so there's a chance he may not see you. I'm not sure why camo in any way makes it so you wouldn't want to stand still. While you're moving in camo, you're much more visible anyway.
Quote
Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.
More encouragement for people to use teamspeak or some other 3rd party voice program?
QuoteI never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.
It seems like you're letting your imagination run wild here Spekkio. What kind of scenario would silent camo be unbalanced? Give a map and a situation where you think this would totally break the game. Because I'm not even remotely seeing it.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 07, 2007, 12:01:22 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 05:50:14 PM
And many people have said "but you can see spies just fine in normal vision when they use camo!!1" Only if you activate it in the direct light like a tard. If you activate it in shadows, even soft ones, you will be unseen. And there are plenty of random shadows throughout the maps in places that the mercs do not need to use the flashlight to navigate the map.
If the merc doesn't have his flashlight or laser on and walking through darkness, whose fault is that?
Bolded because you obviously didn't see it the first time.
QuoteQuoteI do. The fact that you will ultimately have to traverse an open area where the merc can see you (ie, a "choke point") means that MT will remain OP unless there is a way to quickly bypass it. Creeping is not a solution because a good merc is going to eventually alternate visions at some point, so spending 30 seconds out in the open is risky at best and suicide at worst. The way to remedy this is making camo not set off the detector. You could say another remedy is in fixing the maps, but that means almost every map is going to be exactly the same. And really, this seems to be the main function of camo: to cross areas of the map safely that the merc would ordinarilly see you. It's quite obvious that Ubi didn't intend camo to be a gadget activated up close to get necks. They just fucked up the sound so that you can't even use it for the former.
Well, I don't think that fast crouching should set off an MT box. It should make you visible to MT (using the Mr.Mic system), but only if the merc is actually looking at you. So you can always wait for him to turn his back and then fast crouch past a spot.
The MT box should only happen if the spy is running.
It doesn't matter if there's no box. The merc is going to be looking around. Only idiots sit there looking at the same spot 100% of the time.
QuoteQuoteYou should watch seefoo's spy vids. They illustrate plenty of spots where you will not see camo easily with normal vision. Again, see above: you can only detect this easily if the spy is in a well-lit area.
All I can say is that I've never had troulbe seeing camo on PC. On Xbox it's a bit more powerful because your screen resolution is lower, so you may miss some fine details. but on PC, it was pretty easy to spot. You just needed to use your flashlight along wtih normal vision.
If you're a merc who doesn't turn on his flashlight and a spy with camo surprises you, well that's your own fault for not using a tool which could have illuminated the camoed spy. I realize a lot of mercs like to keep their light off to not give away their presence, but that's a double edged sword.
As has been established, the players that used camo effectively were few and far between. I pointed you to someone who uses it effectively and showcases it in his videos.
QuoteQuote
Exactly. It means that you have to do your homework. You don't just see a merc around the corner and say "ok, camo on" and grab him while the meter has depleted 10%. You have to be careful with it.
Seeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best.
It's only risky if you can hear it.
QuoteQuote
Really, if a merc is as close as I'm envisioning to be able to hear the activation sound of camo (or the gun drawing animation), the spy shouldn't be doing ANYTHING to give away his position unless he intends to actually fight the merc. I'm talking 3-4 meters here. Picture yourself in an environment where you have to sneak around, and someone is 3 meters away. You'd probably want to stay still for a while in your hiding spot until he walks away, which the merc usually will do considering there is more than 1 objective to cover.
Yeah, it kinda helps if you can cloak yourself while standing still so there's a chance he may not see you. I'm not sure why camo in any way makes it so you wouldn't want to stand still. While you're moving in camo, you're much more visible anyway.
Argh...
I'm not saying that camo should or does make it so that you wouldn't want to stand still. I'm saying that the spy should not have free reign over using his gadgets with no additional threat of being detected when a merc is within 3 meters. Again, don't throw the "but oh he can be found in EMF" thing out there, because not being able to be detected in 2 visions is better than being able to be detected in all of them.
QuoteQuote
Thread jack: I'd also be a fan of mercs being able to hear spy comms in this radius (no obvious *bleep* hack comms message, though), but I don't know if that can be implemented well with so many variables.
More encouragement for people to use teamspeak or some other 3rd party voice program?
Yea, it's a cool idea but really wouldn't work practically.
QuoteQuoteI never said it was balanced. I said that people can use it effectively. Zedblade is another guy who can do that. I agree it needs a buff, and that buff should be that you can't hear it everywhere in the map. But not hear it at ALL? That's overboard.
It seems like you're letting your imagination run wild here Spekkio. What kind of scenario would silent camo be unbalanced? Give a map and a situation where you think this would totally break the game. Because I'm not even remotely seeing it.
The way I'm seeing it is as follows:
Let's imagine we're playing factory. Merc is by the B doorway going to main hall. You are in the vent above him. Note that the merc can't see you there so long as you don't show yourself. Now, using camo allows you to safely traverse those rafters.
With no activation sound, you can just do this whenever. There's no thought or skill put into at all. Right click, you're almost invisible. With the activation sound under a short radius, you would have to wait for the merc to move away (or get your partner to draw his attention) for you to safely use the gadget. Takes a little more thoughtfulness and skill.
It's just a simple principle of pluses and minuses. I am not contending, nor have I ever contended, that a silent activation would be omfg imba. It would simply be a poor design decision that dumbs down the game and has the potential to making the gadget imba.
Not only that, but you've just written a whole lot about how you'd find camo from up close anyway, so why is it such a big deal to you that the merc would be able to hear its activation from that range?
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 09:26:54 PM
Uhh, that's the point.
Camo DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER NERF FFS!! God damn.
It's already easy enough for someone to detect camo! One touch of the EMF button and THERE HE IS! Imagine that! Plus, camo doesn't make you completely invisible, it just is a distorted appearance of the stuff behind the spy. It's easily noticable at about 1-25 feet with NO vision.
When someone walks into a room usually they cycle through visions to see if they can pick up any spies. That happens when someone has got on camo. You don't need to hear it to see them. Isn't the point of camo to hide the spies? Why make that harder than it is?
Also the laser detects it...
papa and neth, you are really ingnorant folks.
just anwser the fucking question why camo shouldn't make a noise within 3 or 4 meters from the merc.
and stop telling nonesense like "it's a stealth gadget" or "camo is already underpowered". hbs makes noise, shooting snares makes noise, dropping chaff makes noise, etc.
hopefully the camo in ps will provide slightely better invisibility in mid range but one thing is clear: it will be different anyways, and the biggest boost is no eax superhearing bs.
and no, it's not that easy to detect camo as emf got a maximum range and camnet will probably get no special visions. imagine spekkio's example with the merc looking into B via camnet from main hall standing next to the door and you'll see that you're creating a no-brainer for lot's of situations.
i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.
QuoteCamo DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER NERF FFS!! God damn.
What nerf are you talking about? Going from hearing it practically everywhere to hearing it in very close proximity to the spy is quite a buff.
Like I said, it seems pretty clear to me that the intention for this gadget was to be primarily used at medium-long range to slip by mercs in open areas undetected. Hearing the sound at that long range is what prevents that use.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.
I assume the reason why you want camo to make noise is your serious lack of merc skills.
--
Im a bit tired of this, its not a thing i would die for. IMO we will be able to say what is best after betas.
Two examples:
1. sometimes merc comes and you want to become invisible, you use it but when merc is nearby there is no energy left, so you become visible and exposed to sure death.
2. You are hidden in a small room. When merc comes suddenly you cant go camo, cause he would hear that and once again, you are exposed to death.
you're contradicting yourself all the time. first you say camo is pretty obvious in low distances, and now you want to use it to hide in a small room. just stfu.
Go get psychological help.
No. He's not contradicting himself. When someone walks into a room they don't instantly see a spy, the spy could be behind a box or in a shadow somewhat. Then, if he turns on camo because he knows that if the merc looks around he'll find him, then the merc will hear the fuckin thing turn on. Then the merc will flip on EMF and the guy is dead.
EAX let you hear it everywhere. EAX shouldn't have let you hear that shit anyway because it really wasn't intended to let you.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
papa and neth, you are really ingnorant folks.
just anwser the fucking question why camo shouldn't make a noise within 3 or 4 meters from the merc.
and stop telling nonesense like "it's a stealth gadget" or "camo is already underpowered". hbs makes noise, shooting snares makes noise, dropping chaff makes noise, etc.
hopefully the camo in ps will provide slightely better invisibility in mid range but one thing is clear: it will be different anyways, and the biggest boost is no eax superhearing bs.
and no, it's not that easy to detect camo as emf got a maximum range and camnet will probably get no special visions. imagine spekkio's example with the merc looking into B via camnet from main hall standing next to the door and you'll see that you're creating a no-brainer for lot's of situations.
i assume the reason why you don't want camo to make noise is your serious lack of stealth skills.
We're ignorant? Whew, that was a good one Gawain. From what I've seen from the months on this site is that you've got ignorant tattoed to your fucking forehead. It doesn't matter if snares or chaff make noise because guess what!? They aren't intended to help you hide! Snares are meant for making mercs believe you are somewhere else and scrambles their reticule. Sounds like distraction to me. Chaff is for disabling electronic devices like mines and traps. Sounds like infiltration sabotage to me. Now camo! Camo is made to help the person hide, what good does it do to help someone hide from a merc from 5 meters away if you can hear it? None.
And since you suggested that camo be part of the spy's inventory permanently I am assuming that you suck ass at using shadows for hiding.
camo is not supposed to work like this. it's main function is to sneak through open, maybe light areas at mid-large range. if you want to hide from a patroulling merc in a small room with camo, simply activate it before he's in 3-4m distance. if you're suprised by the merc because of bad recon / awareness, you shouldn't be allowed to stay hidden. the mercs need possibilities to surprise the spies in some way otherwise they wouldn't get a single kill against a good team.
Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before. ::) But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff
Quote from: Spekkio on December 07, 2007, 02:08:51 AM
Bolded because you obviously didn't see it the first time.
Oh I saw hat. But just because the room isn't dark enough to warrant a flashlight to see clearly doesn't mean you couldn't have ti on. in fact, you're going to detect the camoed spy if you have your flashlight on or you have the laser on. The fact that you have neither on is the reason you didn't see him. Effectively as a merc you're running in stealth mode, having less detection gear active in the hopes that the spy won't see you and you can get the jump on him. The spy happens to get the jump on you because of that, I really can't feel sorry for the merc.
Quote
QuoteSeeing a merc rounding the corner fast and going camo+back to the wall is a risky proposition at best.
It's only risky if you can hear it.
No, it's risky just doing it. I used to do that on xbox, where you can't even hear camo, and a lot of the times, I'd get my ass handed to me a lot. The merc would pass by, see me anyway with flashlight or just out of the corner of his eye and then shoot me while I was standing stationary. Most of the time it's a lot more reliable to just run like hell instead of putting your back to the wall and camoing up. If you try the camo at close range trick, you're more than likely to get your head blown off. It's not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is.
Quote
I'm not saying that camo should or does make it so that you wouldn't want to stand still. I'm saying that the spy should not have free reign over using his gadgets with no additional threat of being detected when a merc is within 3 meters. Again, don't throw the "but oh he can be found in EMF" thing out there, because not being able to be detected in 2 visions is better than being able to be detected in all of them.
If you're going to buff camo such that standing still is complete invisibility then a sound makes sense. If it works like it does now where you can still see a guy who has camo on, then it's not even necessary. I mean really, you're paying for a gadget so that you can become less visible at the cost of energy for short periods of time. Camo is obviously going to do something, so sure it's going to be better than using nothing at all.
Quote
Let's imagine we're playing factory. Merc is by the B doorway going to main hall. You are in the vent above him. Note that the merc can't see you there so long as you don't show yourself. Now, using camo allows you to safely traverse those rafters.
Having a short range sound won't help there at all. Because at worse the spy just backs into the vent a bit and gets out of the 3 meter range and then activates it. 3 meters isn't even going to make much of a concern for someone up in a vent anyway. So your scenario isn't even really going to be fixed by a short range activation sound.
Quote
Not only that, but you've just written a whole lot about how you'd find camo from up close anyway, so why is it such a big deal to you that the merc would be able to hear its activation from that range?
Well, because I hate the idea of a stealth gadget that gives away your position. There are points where you may have gone undetected if you didn't use the stealth gadget, solely because the merc didn't know you were there but the stealth gadget let the merc know you were nearby. That's just stupid. A stealth gadget should never give away your position like that. The sound is being put in solely so the gadget can let the merc know that you're nearby. I mean what the hell man? The purpose of camo is so that hopefully you go by undetected.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 07, 2007, 06:19:11 PM
Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before. ::) But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff
wtf are you talking about???
Another idea: Turning camo off (or when battery ends) doesn't make a sound.
QuoteHaving a short range sound won't help there at all. Because at worse the spy just backs into the vent a bit and gets out of the 3 meter range and then activates it. 3 meters isn't even going to make much of a concern for someone up in a vent anyway. So your scenario isn't even really going to be fixed by a short range activation sound.
Except that using camo takes energy, so the further back you activate it, the less time you have to cross the merc's view. This really is the balance end of why I think camo ought to make sound. Without it, you can just save it until the very last second on most occassions. With it, you will have to plan for the fact that you have limited energy.
QuoteWell, because I hate the idea of a stealth gadget that gives away your position. There are points where you may have gone undetected if you didn't use the stealth gadget, solely because the merc didn't know you were there but the stealth gadget let the merc know you were nearby. That's just stupid. A stealth gadget should never give away your position like that. The sound is being put in solely so the gadget can let the merc know that you're nearby. I mean what the hell man? The purpose of camo is so that hopefully you go by undetected.
Wtf is a "stealth gadget?" Technically, they ALL are stealth gadgets, as I can find a stealthy use for each and every one of them. As a principle, the spy should need to be careful when using them.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 06:22:24 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 07, 2007, 06:19:11 PM
Oh yeah, like you've never been charged from behind before. ::) But maybe you have if your recon skills suck. pff
wtf are you talking about???
I'm saying that no one knows where mercs are 100% of the time. You seem to think my recon skills suck because I don't want camo to make noise in case I don't know that the merc is near me. SO, going by that logic, your recon skills suck if you've ever been charged from behind before because you didn't know he was there.
I too hate the idea that a gadget that is supposed to help you hide will actually give your position away.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 07, 2007, 08:26:53 PM
Except that using camo takes energy, so the further back you activate it, the less time you have to cross the merc's view. This really is the balance end of why I think camo ought to make sound. Without it, you can just save it until the very last second on most occassions. With it, you will have to plan for the fact that you have limited energy.
Sure, you can save a bit more energy, but the more energy you try to save, the riskier it is. I mean suppose the merc sees you sticking your head out of the vent. Now he knows where you are. Now, you can wait at the edge of the vent or use HBS to see if he's there, but the end result is that now you're using more time to check for him instead of just using camo while beyond 3 meters and then going forward without stopping. So you either use up a little more camo battery (not even that much since 3 meters when you're up on a vent is what, like 2-3 steps?) or you use a little bit more recon time and save a half second of camo battery.
The game effect for a pro just isn't that much. What it does do is frustrate the hell out of newbies who accidentally get heard trying to be stealthy with camo.
QuoteWtf is a "stealth gadget?" Technically, they ALL are stealth gadgets, as I can find a stealthy use for each and every one of them. As a principle, the spy should need to be careful when using them.
A stealth gadget makes you harder to detect. Camo is actually the only true stealth gadget in the game. HBS and spy bullets are recon, alarm snare is distraction, and cams/grenades are aggro.
Right invisible.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 07, 2007, 08:41:04 PM
I'm saying that no one knows where mercs are 100% of the time. You seem to think my recon skills suck because I don't want camo to make noise in case I don't know that the merc is near me. SO, going by that logic, your recon skills suck if you've ever been charged from behind before because you didn't know he was there.
I too hate the idea that a gadget that is supposed to help you hide will actually give your position away.
papa, it's not all about you. i pointed out that you should get punished if you are unaware of the mercs position. IF the spies would know where the mercs are all the time, they would almost never die.
What you folks except spekkio don't get is that camo is NOT supposed for hiding close to the merc, it's effective range is mid-large range. it's not that easy to detect spies and especially not to kill them at contact, so it should take at least take more attention and skill to stay hidden/alive close to the merc.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 11:30:11 PM
What you folks except spekkio don't get is that camo is NOT supposed for hiding close to the merc, it's effective range is mid-large range.
Oh I get that Gawain. That's what I've been saying all along. Camo doesn't need a nerf while you're close to the merc. It's already not effective at that range anyway.
It seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.
My whole argument is that camo isnt' great at close range, so who cares if it's silent. It's not going to break the game.
If anyone has seen Led's Aqua video I think that's one of the best uses of camo I've really seen. He slips right past mercs patrolling tech. That's what camo is meant to do in my opinion and it's really not designed to go after necks all of the time. The close range activation sound kind of ensures it stays a purely defencive gadget but is still useful. I'm sure it was Seefoo I seen on Hospital that totally boggled me when he did it. I was standing on the 212 stairs, he shocked me from the 102 corner then hit camo. Due to the range I didn't see him go all the way up the 205 stairs. X_X
QuoteIt seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.
Don't put words in my mouth. Please find a quote where I said it would be "crazy powerful."
You keep saying that the disadvantage of camo is that you can be seen in EMF, by the flashlight, and by the laser.
I, however, look at that as camo gives you the advantage that you can ONLY be seen by those methods, whereas a spy not using camo can be seen by those methods and more. To balance out that advantage, it should make some sound in a short range.
QuoteOh I get that Gawain. That's what I've been saying all along. Camo doesn't need a nerf while you're close to the merc. It's already not effective at that range anyway.
But no one is "nerfing" camo, Invisible. It's already receiving a buff by not being able to be heard everywhere.
Really, if there aren't any Xbox players who use camo effectively when it doesn't make sound, and there are 3-4 PC players who use it fine when it does (which isn't a whole lot but like only 20 people play the game anyway), it makes me question how good the Xbox community is at using it. I'm not trying to pull Gawain's elitist attitude here saying that you suck and all that, I'm simply stating that there comes a point when you have to wonder if player's inability to use camo effectively is because the gadget is inherently weak, or if they just aren't very good at the game.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 08, 2007, 12:03:15 AM
QuoteIt seems like you and Spekkio are the ones who think that close range camo is crazy powerful and needs to be stopped.
Don't put words in my mouth. Please find a quote where I said it would be "crazy powerful."
Well it's powerful enough that having it make noise is essential. The fact that you keep arguing about it is pretty much indicative that either you feel like silent camo would break the game (and therefore would be "crazy powerful), or perhaps you simply hate losing in arguments and will argue things you don't believe in just so you appear right.
Honestly, I'm not sure.
So why don't you tell me which one it is?
Why does it have to be extreme? I don't think silent camo would "break the game," but I do think that a silent camo has the potential to be too strong.
However, I have repeatedly argued from a game design perspective more than anything else. When you can use things carelessly, it removes tension and strategic planning from the game. And really, those things are what makes the game so addicting -- at least for me.
invisible, 3m or 5m sound range isn't that much, but it helps fine tuning the balance so that going for necks with camo etc takes more planning and carefullness. with all the other boosts for camo i can't see why you have a problem with it. it will be way stronger in mid-large range (no noise), possibly stronger against mt and stay at least as strong at going for necks / close-to-merc stealth. the gentle (de)activation sound just prohibits a mindless use and takes some timing skills.