I know it's been discussed before but I think it would be a great addition to the game honestly. I still haven't heard a solid word about it from developers so I just wanted to know.
Let's talk about it.
For those of you who don't know what it is:
A spy drops a mine sized projector on the ground. The projector emits a hologram of a running spy. The spy hologram runs through walls and objects so you can tell if it is real or not if you see it go through something. It would be used to make mercenaries think that it is a spy running away and possibly distract the merc or get him to chase it. I'm thinking that it should show up on EMF all the time. The hologram restarts every 20 seconds or so and repeats the spy running hologram say 3 times.
Yes, no, maybe so?
I say yes, depending on how it is implemented this could prove to be a great gadget for stealth players, great for distracting mercs, and just plain fun.
I just want to see the communities opinion on this one.
1.Wouldnt it be too obvious for merc to realise that its a holo ?
2. Also theres a problem what to do when merc enters room and holo has already begun running
3. How much visible would be the device on ground
4. answer this alone - whats the probability that any of community new ideas will be implemented into the game ?
1. No, it looks just like a spy that is running. The only way they would be able to tell is if they shoot it and it doesn't hurt it or they see it run through a wall or something. This would depend on the spy's placement of it.
2. What do you mean? Doesn't make sense, what problem?
3. Maybe it would be smaller than a mine but bigger than a spy bullet. A little smaller than a spy trap. It wouldn't have any lights on it, only a little lens where the hologram is projected.
4. Some already have, like some input on the models get taken into account I believe. I'm sure that devs will put some of our input into consideration atleast.
Quote from: neth on December 05, 2007, 02:35:39 AM
4. answer this alone - whats the probability that any of community new ideas will be implemented into the game ?
Remember that the first goal, in my humble opinion, should be to get a working version of the game. After we do some bug/balance testing, then level design, then more testing, and get a pretty good working game, THEN you get to contemplate the extras that go on top. Get the core program working FIRST. Ideas are great discussion, but until we get the thing actually WORKING, they probably aren't going to be put in.
well then wtf are we talking about then? It would better if we put in the new ideas before we start developing because then we wouldn't have to go back and change stuff to balance the new stuff. Why don't we just balance them beforehand? There's a reason why Ubisoft didn't release new equipment after they balanced they released the game. You should do level design AFTER the new stuff goes in so you can balance it for them. Who else is gonna back me up here?
Anyways, let's just talk about the holopod in the meantime.
Chill, man. I was replying to the remark (that I felt was inferred) that the PS team, all CT fans, would not listen to our input similar to how UBI treats their communities.
I agree that talking through ideas beforehand while we wait is a good thing...
...therefore I feel like this idea is a little silly. If I want to distract mercs, lets use snares and/or partner distraction. I realize this isn't being made to be 'realistic', but holo-pods seem a bit 'out there' to me.
Anywho...
Quote from: lochang19 on December 05, 2007, 06:20:58 AM
but holo-pods seem a bit 'out there' to me.
Agreed.
Edit - Here is a reason why: I snipe a spy unless he is right in my face and even sometimes then too. It's not going to take but half a second to realize you didn't just shoot a real spy in the face. Or the second you charge through the holo. It wouldn't be used except as a novelty item. You would memorize the way they move. common places to use it as a distraction. Places a merc is likely to just say screw it and not pursue in favor of staying near an objective. Does the holo run a random path? does it always go a set direction from where it's dropped? Cool but ineffective gadget that would require ai, pathing etc. for next to no usefulness. Just not worth it.
How does a hologram that just runs in a straight line or a curved line require pathing or AI, it DOESN'T. If you see it doesn't hurt him then you might think that you missed or there is lag or something. Someone isn't going to go " OMFG I'M SOO 1337 IF I DIDN'T HURT HIM IT MUST BE A HOLOGRAM", no one will think that the first thing. How would you memorize the way they move? In a straight line? Pfff.
A lot of times you won't even have a chance to snipe someone because you either don't have a good shot or don't want to give your position away because you aren't sure if you can hit the spy lethally. There has been plenty of times where I can only see the spy's arm or leg but I don't fire because I know it would be stupid to give away my position for a nonlethal shot. If you see a hologram run and it just get's behind cover you could still think it's a spy if you hit him because you'll think that you missed.
What if it says that you hit something ( meaning that your reticule goes red )? Then it wouldn't be a novelty item anymore like you say it would. Say you are in Pirates Room in Aquarius and you want the merc to leave so you want him to think that you left. All you'd have to do is set up a holopod so the hologram is running into the blue room or something. Most mercs would leave because it isn't that far away to leave to get back to your post right? This is an example of how holopods could be useful
ANother example is if you are trying to escape a mercenary. You smoke him, flash him maybe, and throw a holopod. Chances are that if he sees your holopod he'll go after it because he's a little dazed at the moment. Leaving you able to escape in a different direction. Maybe we could make the hologram do a roll halfway through the projection or something? Maybe make him do things other than just run? They would all be timed of course:
The spy runs for 8 seconds, he rolls, maybe he could get his gun out randomly. Those animations are very common for a human spy and it would be difficult to distinguish them. This would require no AI.
hologram is technically feasible in the real world, in a limited sense of course.
I actually liked the idea when it was originally suggested.
To make it convincing of course will require intelligent use by the player, much like camo currently requires intelligent use to be effective. (turning camo on the same time a frag/mine explodes to mask the sound).
A very simple way for player control, is the halo pod will clone the spy, and the spy will mirror the movements of the player. melting through walls will of course destroy the illusion.
Halos, for an ounce of reality do not emit emf or motion tracking (one way for mercs to know its a fake) because it is only light and neither of these visions react to visible light. This also means they do not set off security.
To control the halo, player would activate the halo with a right mouse button.....halo is created, and then to make it active and move, player would press right mouse button again. This controls the distance between player and halo. Once the halo is moving, it copies every movement of the player. The halo is powered just like the camo, it has a battery life and the illusion expires when the power cells of the spy are empty -which is roughly 10 seconds. An active halo, just like camo, requires enough power that using tazer will destroy the halo(just like camo). The illusion will also be destroyed when the spy changes vertical height(climbing boxes/vents), unless the illusion can follow the spy (stairs and lift). This is due to a technical limitation of not having levitating halos. So you could clone the a spy while in a vent, but as soon as you jump out of the vent, halo is destroyed.
The real purpose of the halo is really to hide the location of the real spy(especially against skilled snipers), or to convince the merc that he is being double teamed. For this to be effective, the merc needs to only be tricked for 2-3 seconds. That is plenty of time for the distraction to move mercs out of position, shoot the wrong spy, or look a different direction.
Possible abuse is 2 spies + 2 halos making for quite a bit of chaos. But the halos are passive, non-lethal and do not really affect gameplay other then tricking players. It gives a lot of cool new possibilities and considering the scarcity of new gadget ideas, is worth considering.
My impression of the suggested device based on this discussion and the prior one in another thread was that it would run around under its own control. Having the player in control of the hologram hadn't occurred to me :-\ If you were thinking of something like this then I guess you were right Papa, it very well may be a viable gadget.
If controlled by the player via mirroring of movements or having the real spy stationary and the holo being played by the character I could see some good uses for it. You could for example use it to lure a merc from you as he comes to stop you from hacking, once he is at proper distance dismiss the holo and resume hacking.
The possibility of both spies using it at once having any ill affect would be easily remedied by putting the player in direct control of the hologram. Then you don't have a herd of spies attacking a merc.
It would have to make sound or it would suck. Then it would be a replacement for alarm snares.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 05, 2007, 12:40:21 PM
It would have to make sound or it would suck. Then it would be a replacement for alarm snares.
no gadget overlapping ffs
there must also be a way to tell the difference from a real spy besides shooting at it.
i like the idea of a hologram, but it's hard to implement the right way.
another way of controlling the movement of the holo spy that comes to my mind is say 5 slots for movements that you can record ingame and possibly before the game.
heh, I can imagine full aggro with chaffs, smokes, flashes and 4 spies running around...poor merc. For me its aggro gadget useful only when you dont have a mate to lure merc. Does aggro need buff ? I thought stealth will get it.
Quote from: Gawain on December 05, 2007, 02:41:35 PM
i like the idea of a hologram, but it's hard to implement the right way.
another way of controlling the movement of the holo spy that comes to my mind is say 5 slots for movements that you can record ingame and possibly before the game.
I like that idea. I think it'd be too easy to see if the hologram and spy movement were identical.
Also, if we stick by GoodKebab's idea, you will only have to switch vision modes to see the difference. But will that be too easy?
Well Neth, we could make it where the device takes a few seconds to lay down and activate, that way, someone isn't going to stop right in the middle of a fight to plant one. I was thinking that after you disorient the merc you could set one going off in some direction and take off the other making an exceptional means of escape/evasion. I was thinking you could make the movements it makes random or you could pre-record the movements, the only reason I didn't suggest that was because I doubted it being possible. Oh, and great idea Kebab.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 05, 2007, 04:36:25 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 05, 2007, 02:41:35 PM
i like the idea of a hologram, but it's hard to implement the right way.
another way of controlling the movement of the holo spy that comes to my mind is say 5 slots for movements that you can record ingame and possibly before the game.
I like that idea. I think it'd be too easy to see if the hologram and spy movement were identical.
Also, if we stick by GoodKebab's idea, you will only have to switch vision modes to see the difference. But will that be too easy?
the same logic applies to camo. A flip of a vision and you know camo is in use. I am not a fan of using slots like a grenade, but rather using the power cell of the spy that depletes tazer/camo if used to much.
Intelligent use of gadgets requires stealth, no matter the gadget...
a halo would be far more convincing when used in the first 2-3 seconds and especially under conditions when merc is stressed or distracted. Remember, the objective is not to convince the merc for an extened period of time. Halo spy would not ping sound reticle, but of course the player would ping.
add a sound device to it?
Quote from: neth on December 05, 2007, 02:35:39 AM
4. answer this alone - whats the probability that any of community new ideas will be implemented into the game ?
Do you really wanna know? hahahaha ;D
(j/k) We take every idea into consideration ;)
That's what I was saying Kebab. When a merc is getting hit by a smoke or a flash, or he barely sees it, or saw it in his periferal, then it would be hard to tell if it was real or not. Plus you could record the movement so that he is crouching or rolling at all times, this way it wouldn't matter if the hologram made sound or not because a real crouched spy doesn't make sound. And tell me, what kind of merc flips on his vision as soon as he sees a spy? No matter the player it is always easier to snipe without EMF or Motion Tracking on. Most mercs are just going to use regular vision and try to shoot it right? So, if they don't use EMF or motion, then it would be harder to tell if it was hologram.
The only ways that you could tell if it was a hologram:
If you see it running and your reticule doesn't ping
If you switch to motion and it doesn't ping the sensor
If you see him run by a mine and it doesn't trigger
If you are 100% sure that you hit him but it doesn't say that you did hit him
If you see it go through a wall or something.
Or by chance you see the hologram projector on the floor or something.
THose are the only ways to really tell if it's real or not right? Other than that, you'd be quite convinced it is a real spy.
:D I just thought of something! :D What if you could record your movements so you are teabagging! Then you just kill a merc, teabag him, then throw your teabagging holopod down and you've got an instant teabagging threesome!!
just got the idea that the spy can create the hologram with SS instead of dropping something. this way it's not op for aggro and can also be used in light areas/without wasting time to set it up.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 05, 2007, 09:37:30 PMThe only ways that you could tell if it was a hologram:
If you see it running and your reticule doesn't ping
If you switch to motion and it doesn't ping the sensor
If you see him run by a mine and it doesn't trigger
If you are 100% sure that you hit him but it doesn't say that you did hit him
If you see it go through a wall or something.
Or by chance you see the hologram projector on the floor or something.
You forgot EMF.
No I didn't. You can't always see a spy in EMF so what makes you think that if you can't see him in EMF then he is a hologram? The hologram wouldn't show up in EMF.
o.O
*note to self: stop posting at 1 am*
OK guys here is a abuse you could use, you are on one side of the door your partner is hacking and you got a hologram on the other side or running or something and the merc then doesn't bother to look at the other side and dies. Now that may be balanced depending on the hologram works and may be a good stealth technique and add another layer of tactics. I don't know it would have to be very balanced to implement but goodkebab did convince me that it could be a useful and balanced gadget that makes sense.
Quote from: goodkebab on December 05, 2007, 11:55:23 AMA very simple way for player control, is the halo pod
Hahaha, Halo pod :P
How about a Hallucinogen grenade for the spy...
It could create a smoke cloud like the smoke grenade but only it wouldn't slow down the merc. The effect would last a long time like 2 min, the merc would be fine but from time to time would have hallucination. To make them effectif he would see a spy(halluciantion) when he turns (I if you turn a corner or turn around urself and see a spy crouch and going to you you usualy charge without thinking). Ai could be simplified to few key "illusion" ex: on side right "behide you"(since you only could(it's not automatic) see him if you turn) you see a spy that was going for ur neck, you take a look at a objectif and you see a spy going for it, you turn around and far away there a spy pulling out him gun and shooting at you etc.
Would be cool, like FEAR. I agree.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 10, 2007, 01:03:16 AM
Would be cool, like FEAR. I agree.
yeah thats what I was thinking about... the little girl in fear
That would be hard to program I believe. That's what I'm guessing. And depending on how you implement it you might be able to tell if it was fake or not.
I'd love to see just a little movement in the corner of the screen :P That'd be so creepy! o.O
yeah it would be realy cool... you would hear sticky-cams and chaff think they're real but there not... it would keep the merc on is toes and make then do mistake like charging in to walls