Before you say that this idea is rubbish, it destroys CT completely and that we have already discussed it please read carefully, there are things I didnt include while presenting this idea before.
1. Electronic Glove would be an option to take instead of SS.
2. You cant ss the merc with glove and you cant launch nades but you get the ability to set nade traps on the ground or walls, which you can detonate when you want. When they get detonated, the effect is similar to the one when nades blow up. Traps are destroyable and visible by merc (if they are not hidden behind e.g. the corner). They are visible like cams on EMF. You can set as many traps as many you have nades but only 1 at a time. One trap can include up to 2 nade types in it, which blow up simultanously after detonation. For example you set a trap made of chaff and smoke.
3. You can hack remotely, but you dont store data like in DA - its normal hacking. The range is very limited - up to 4-7 metres. Hacking speed depends on how close you are to the hacking device. When you hack, you cant stop immediatelly. It takes the same ammount of time to enter/exit hacking mode as it gets for spy to start/stop hacking when its done without glove.
4. When you hack objective with your glove, it makes a sound which pings the reticle. The closer merc gets to the area of hacking objective, the better he hears it.
5. You can only hack objective from the same terrain level as the objective.
6. The thing with remote hacking is that in some situations spy can survive thrown nade and merc cant snipe him automatically
7. Spy using the glove is visible on EMF
8. Spy who chose glove can launch cams, bullets, snares and use HBS.
9. Spy with glove can break glass/lights very fast
10. He can also hack the merc for limited time, he doesnt have to do it from the same terrain level. It takes some time but after this merc cant snipe, use visions, his flashlight blinks mad and vision is distorted (how much is a matter of balance).
11. Range of glove when hacking merc or breaking lights is much greater than when hacking obj.
12. Glove gives you better camo battery
13. HBS gets a better range, bullets make no sound when fired and their time of working is extended.
14. Glove allows you to use the HBS very fast, it doesnt make a sound then. Because of glove spy cant taz he has to know where mercs exactly are to avoid them.
I dont expect this idea to be added to the game immediatelly. I hope it will be reconsidered when beta or final game is released and devs will have time to work on it.
No to:
2 [no firing, only throwing], 4, 5, 9
indifferent on 11
rest is a yes IMO.
FOR PS2.
Quote from: neth on December 05, 2007, 09:58:27 PM
I dont expect this idea to be added to the game immediatelly. I hope it will be reconsidered when beta or final game is released and devs will have time to work on it.
Hold your horses, don't expect anything :D
I like the idea and I think it would be a great addition. Except, maybe cut down on the things that it can fire. Also, the ways that maps are balanced is greatly dependent on the lighting. So, make the lights get only shut down temporarily and not permanently.
I LOVE the grenade trap idea, it just sounds like it would be fun as hell to do. Imagine just walking and instantly getting hammered by a flash bang and a smoke at once. You'd have no time to turn the mask on and you'd just be like "WTF WAS THAT?!" But, it would be balanced by the fact that they can't shoot grenades which is a big handicap.
I like it, needs some modification but yeah.
Who said there weren't enough ideas again? I just got another one. Go check out my newest thread! Sorry I've been making a lot lately, but they aren't spam.
no to a SS replacement. the only interesting thing is remote hacking. maybe we can add a new mode/new objective type similar to scda where you can hack from distance, safe the data and extract it.
Except instead of PD being the merc's main tool of finding spys you could make it where hacking makes noise so it pings the merc's reticule. It's not a replacement. Really, it is an alternative. A replacement means taking something out of the game and replacing it with something else entirely. Like how DA replaced health packs with syringes would be "REPLACING" them.
Quote from: frvge on December 05, 2007, 10:07:39 PM
No to:
2 [no firing, only throwing], 4, 5, 9
indifferent on 11
rest is a yes IMO.
FOR PS2.
2 - no firing means that you have to plan your moves before merc comes, thats why there are nade traps
4 - I dont know about you but i wouldnt want to look for remotely hacking spy and waste time
5 - would you like to see spies hacking objectives from vents and when merc comes they would go and camp it until mercs go away ?
9 - Whats the problem with that ? It worked well in DA, Ofc not all lights would be broken permanently... even all lights can be shut off for limited time. Its just that it would take less time than it takes when you use ss
Good luck in creating PS2 frvge. I hope I ever see it in my life but these are not ideas for PS2 but for PS.
If you dont want them, just say it, and dont try to make me believe in this PS2 thing. As I guess other people (and even devs) also have opinions about this idea and it would be nice not to cut the discussion with: "Wait, in 10 years I will put it into PS2". This idea is also to be implemented directly, not to create another game mode...
It differs too much in gameplay from our current goal.
I don't like the idea of remote hacking. I wouldn't mind if you could stand a bit off from the terminal just to prevent easy sniping (I hate how your head is always in the same spot in CT), but people hiding in vents and on the ceiling and shit sucks. I hated trying to find random spies in DA and I wouldn't want to do that in CT either.
If theres remote hacking, I'd prefer it be just for subobjectives, like maybe a gadget lets you hack doors from afar. Even so much as being able to place a remote hacking device on a console and then hack it from anywhere in the level.
I sort of liked the idea of hacking the merc remotely, though i"d prefer it be something more passive. Like when the merc is hacked, he doesn't even know it. Instead of doing things like screwing up his hud and crap, it tells the spy where the merc placed all his mines and traps (they appear on radar) and possibly does something like make the spy undetectable on the merc's special visions. The vision hack remains for about as long as a spybullet, and the spy wouldn't know the location of new mines that you place after being hacked.
Unlike normal hacking, or getting shot by the SS, you're not aware that you've been hacked. If the spy managed to be completely stealthy with the 5-10 seconds required to hack you, then you're totally unaware. I figure that after the hack has been purged, like the one minute time is up, there could be a message saying "Virus in suit programming detected and purged." So you know you had been hacked, so people can be aware of it in the future.
If you have remote hacking, you need to include a presence detector. Otherwise, no one will be able to find the spies.
I don't think anyone really wants to have a PD...
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 04:11:16 PMI don't think anyone really wants to have a PD...
I'd shoot my testicles off with a 12g flechette round.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 06, 2007, 03:09:53 PM
I don't like the idea of remote hacking. I wouldn't mind if you could stand a bit off from the terminal just to prevent easy sniping
Thats the purpose !
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 06, 2007, 03:09:53 PM
but people hiding in vents and on the ceiling and shit sucks.
That would not happen. Because:
1. Range of hacking device is to small (4-7 metres)
2. You can only hack from the same terrain level
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 04:11:16 PM
If you have remote hacking, you need to include a presence detector. Otherwise, no one will be able to find the spies.
I don't think anyone really wants to have a PD...
Nope, you dont have to, cause:
a) The range of hacking device is quite small, so you generally can predict when the spy can be
b) You can only hack from the same terrain level, so spies dont hack from vents
c) Merc hears sound produced by hacking device, which tracks him to the spy, the closer he is to him.
d) spy is visible on emf while hacking
No PD is needed then...
Seriously, its not that far from original gameplay, there is no single revolutionary thing.
There is completely no abuse and no reason to be afraid of this.
I know that we are all used to using ss when you're endangered but some people would prefer avoiding that and instead, focus on planning. Remote hacking is only a small addition. People with remote hacking tool wont be able to play aggro DA style.
I really dont get what you guys are afraid of, if you like playing with ss you will still be able to do that, no one is taking it away...
sounds nice to me, with a few changes. nice stealthy gameplay ^_^
Yeah we could also make it where the spy pings the merc's reticule while hacking, making it easier to find him even more.
the only way to implement this properly map-wise is creating a new type of objective.
btw, remote hacking was way too slow in scda.
Quote from: Gawain on December 06, 2007, 06:23:26 PM
the only way to implement this properly map-wise is creating a new type of objective.
says who
Why would you need a new objective? I can see what you mean but all it would have to be is something that makes you hack a console a little slower from farther away.
I like almost all of it but 2 and 5. I don't think it should replace the SS and actually be another gadget. Also, I guess the hacking distance really can't be too long. It could be only a couple of meters, so you know the spy is around the objective and not on the other side of the map (yes I exagerated now but you get what I mean).
I don't think 5 is necessary, but I like it.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 06, 2007, 10:46:33 PM
I like almost all of it but 2 and 5.
Well i guess 2 and 5 are crucial here. I explained it above.
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 06, 2007, 10:46:33 PM
I don't think it should replace the SS and actually be another gadget.
Its not a replacement, its another type of "weapon" you can take it instead of first if it fits your game style
Quote from: Gui Brazil on December 06, 2007, 10:46:33 PM
I guess the hacking distance really can't be too long. It could be only a couple of meters, so you know the spy is around the objective and not on the other side of the map (yes I exagerated now but you get what I mean).
Yeah, details are a matter of balance.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 06, 2007, 10:53:47 PM
I don't think 5 is necessary, but I like it.
If we allow players to hack from different terrain level, we will see many of them hacking from vents, and camping inside till mercs go away. Thats not really something we would like to see
Quote from: neth on December 06, 2007, 10:57:52 PM
If we allow players to hack from different terrain level, we will see many of them hacking from vents, and camping inside till mercs go out. Thats not really something we would like to see
Oh, hadn't thought of that. 5 is off my list.:P
vents next to objectives is bad map design anyways.
Yes, but there are some exceptions like factory, orph etc.
Same terrain only. The only use I can think of for hacking remotely would be the fact that they can't snipe you instantly and you can escape frags easier. But, I like the other uses: Grenade mines for instance ;)
Not far from the original gameplay? It allows the spy to rest in different locations while hacking which completely disrupts a mercs ability to stop a terminal in line-of-sight from being hacked.
Using pirate room layout as an example: If a merc enters from the bridge from greek and spy is hacking under the bridge just out of range for the merc he could try to guess where he is by firing a nade against the wall, but if he has no nades he can't stop him for at least another 3-4 seconds.
I also think that a plantable explosive device granted to the spy is a terrible idea. Now let's pretend here and say you found a way to make it balanced, there's still the problem that a merc has no defense against an explosive he knows is around the corner. Spies have chaff and they can run in/out to set it off but a merc is completely helpless. And inserting some sort of a disabling device for a merc would be a waste of a slot when it only works in rare situations for a device that can't exist more than twice at once on a map.
I think it adds another layer of complexity to the game that really doesn't need to be there, and feels forced and unnecessary.
Maps won't be designed like aqua gimp.
I think it sounds neat, but as for how it would be implemented I don't have any comment. I like the idea of at least having a alternative weapons/tool system besides just the regular SS. I'm assuming the glove is going to be a bit more compact and smaller than the SS so I think it should be only allowed to launch gadgets the size of a alarm snare or spy bullet.
Welcome wandering. You sound like you've got a good idea of what you're talking about ;D And that's a good thing.
and you soudn like you got no idea what you're talking about...
For personal comments/insults and groupsex, please use a PM. Thank you.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 06, 2007, 09:08:42 PM
Why would you need a new objective? I can see what you mean but all it would have to be is something that makes you hack a console a little slower from farther away.
because you are supposed to be able to stop a spy from hacking a termin in line of sight. it would totally screw balance on all the maps we know. you simpy can't design a map for both types of spy eq.
if you add a 4th type of objective with remote hacking you can balance the map.
Quote from: Gawain on December 09, 2007, 05:06:05 PM
it would totally screw balance on all the maps we know. you simpy can't design a map for both types of spy eq.
It is possible, and remember that PS will NOT have CT maps.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 09, 2007, 07:32:13 AM
Maps won't be designed like aqua gimp.
That was simply an example. He can probably come up with one for every map in the game.
It's probably safe to say that PS maps will be similar in style to those in PT/CT.
I'd say similar to CT in layout, and same feel like in PT.
Had a discussion about the same thing on XFire, can't remember with who it was again :S
ZOMG H0LY SHIT MAJoR BUMPZOR!!!!11!1 :D
This needs some more discussion.
Whether you guys already decided on it or discussed it more in xfire or something I don't know. I say let's work out the kinks and really try to get an alternative to the ss going. I for one would love it because it adds some variety to the game. Of course, it depends on how it's implemented. Let's just say for a moment that it's implemented perfectly, balanced, and in a fun way. Why not?
It needs testing imo. A lot of testing. It would put a little bit bigger of a load on our map designers to keep it balanced for all situations, but I have faith in them.
I dont know why people bringing this electric glove "back up". I already decided that the glove wasn't going to be used, and most people didn't like the idea. I personally dont like the idea, but aslong as it IS an alternative to SS, i don't see why it shouldnt be implemented.
Quote from: FR33M4N on March 07, 2008, 05:18:26 PM
I dont know why people bringing this electric glove "back up". I already decided that the glove wasn't going to be used, and most people didn't like the idea. I personally dont like the idea, but aslong as it IS an alternative to SS, i don't see why it shouldnt be implemented.
WTF THE CT MAPS ARENT BEING REMADE FOR PS?!
Wtf man? Of course they aren't. I'm sure some will have some inspiration from previous maps. I do not get your post before that, you contradicted yourself like twice.
I'm ALL for remote hack and activity. Standing right on an objective in CT was lame.
Well, it wasn't lame. It's just that with more options and ways to hack it would make it better imo.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on December 09, 2007, 05:46:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 09, 2007, 05:06:05 PM
it would totally screw balance on all the maps we know. you simpy can't design a map for both types of spy eq.
It is possible, and remember that PS will NOT have CT maps.
what exactly makes you sure that it's possible?
i'm all for a new remote hacking game mode but with its own maps and settings...
Take PTmuse, add some leveling like CTmissile3, add some paths that make sense and there you are.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 06:00:04 PM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on December 09, 2007, 05:46:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 09, 2007, 05:06:05 PM
it would totally screw balance on all the maps we know. you simpy can't design a map for both types of spy eq.
It is possible, and remember that PS will NOT have CT maps.
what exactly makes you sure that it's possible?
i'm all for a new remote hacking game mode but with its own maps and settings...
Yea, if the devs are industrious (sp?) enough to make a second game mode with remote hacking, I'd be all for it. However, I worry about how such a glove would fit into the current gamestyle, in that it might make the game way too boring for the mercs.
Again, please stop with the "gmo PS will not have CT maps." Assuming that the core gameplay is there, the maps in PS are going to be very similar in style to the ones we see in PT/CT.
Quote from: Gawain on March 07, 2008, 06:00:04 PM
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on December 09, 2007, 05:46:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 09, 2007, 05:06:05 PM
it would totally screw balance on all the maps we know. you simpy can't design a map for both types of spy eq.
It is possible, and remember that PS will NOT have CT maps.
what exactly makes you sure that it's possible?
i'm all for a new remote hacking game mode but with its own maps and settings...
What exactly makes you sure that it isn't possible? Stop living in the past, it's ALL NEW STUFF guys. The maps can be built around and designed for balance for new gadgets/features. A new game mode just for remote hacking would be good also. Only the map makers can really know if it's possible or not. And even then, they don't know what the glove would be like yet. Spekkio, there were few maps that were totally balanced, so you can count on a lot of differences if you want to see all balanced maps. (which may not even be possible)
How would balanced maps be impossible? That would mean the entire premise of the game is broken.
Yes, there are imbalanced maps in PT/CT, but there are also relatively balanced maps as well. There's quite a bit of variety among them, but there are certain core elements that they share. Those core elements are going to be components of any future maps as well.
I meant ALL balanced maps, in fact that's what I said.
Oh snap i didnt read the thing about remote hacking, i shouldn't post without fully reading others posts, Ok i think the idea will make maps unbalanced, and remote hacking sucks ass in general IMO
That's why you balance the maps around both the glove and the sticky shocker. An all new gametype may be needed for this but you will still have to design maps so that they would be balanced for both gadgets.
which is impossible. which you would understand if you had any deeper undestanding of the ct gameplay mechanics.
Well... it's possible if you allow yourself to stop being locked on 'CT mode'.
Even on CTmuseum it's possible to play effectively with the glove (imo atleast), because the only thing that you would get from using the glove is not getting sniped instantly. You could then just crouch behind a box and do your thing. Sure it would take a lot more time, but the risk would get considerably lower.
Wow. Gawain really seems to want to rag on me lately for no fucking reason. Funny. It's fucking funny that you don't have to have a deep understanding of SvM gameplay, which I do, to know that it's possible to balance maps around both gadgets. How the hell do you know Gawain? Has it ever been attempted before? What knowledge do you have to back this up other that "I'm always right and everyone else is always wrong!"?
This is all brand new, which I hope has sunk into your head by now, and anything is possible. I have faith in our dev team and I'm sure they are able to create maps which are balanced for both remote hacking and direct hacking. Remember, our dev team is not Ubi. They even have a whole community to go ask questions to. Do you think that WE as a whole community and a dev team wouldn't be able to design a map to successfully work for this? You go by pure speculation and try to use my "noobiness" to back up your argument. Why don't you elaborate on how you think this is impossible?
Your elitist bullshit is getting on my last nerve, as is your arrogance and your inability to acknowledge how retarded you are acting.
Quote from: Gawain on March 09, 2008, 09:07:33 PM
which is impossible. which you would understand if you had any deeper undestanding of the ct gameplay mechanics.
You are beginning to go a little beyond the point of being ignored.
Quote from: Gawain on March 09, 2008, 09:07:33 PM
which is impossible. which you would understand if you had any deeper undestanding of the ct gameplay mechanics.
Gawain, please stop spouting what you want Project Stealth to be an realize that there is more than one opinion in the world. If someone else has an idea, please don't be an ass and shout "lololololol you idea r dumb, i r pro so i r write". Accept that there are other people with different ways of thinking.
sorry, but my opinion is that
a) people like papa have no clue about svm gameplay and spam this forum with bullshit
b) it's impossible and unnecessary to balance a map for both ss and glove
c) i'm all for a new game mode more similar to scda than to scct, but as an extra mode coming later. it would also be possible to create a new kind of objective that can be remotely hacked without needing any different eq than your ss.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 10, 2008, 07:02:57 AM
You are beginning to go a little beyond the point of being ignored.
love u2. so you think that i should be ignored jsut because i bash bad ideas? seriously, **** ***.
"it's impossible"
Again, how the fuck are you going to know that? Have you, or anyone else in the world, ever attempted it? What reference and clues do you have to make such a bold assumption almighty one?
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 10, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
"it's impossible"
Again, how the fuck are you going to know that? Have you, or anyone else in the world, ever attempted it? What reference and clues do you have to make such a bold assumption almighty one?
it's already hard enough to balance a map properly for only ss.
the whole map dynamic relies on the ss, as it's kinda impossible to get away, to get through bottle necks or to cover well without it, and so do the sniper and nade spots as it's kinda impossible to cover big maps if you have to run to every objective just because the spy is sitting behind a corner.
so you end up in a dilemma: if the merc is close, it's too risky to hack with the glove. if the merc isn't close, you could simply hack it from close (which would be faster according to the suggested glove). if the merc can only cover the objective effectively by sniping or by straight nades, the glove ends up op in that place. the teamplay argument is also quite stupid as 2 spies dominate one merc anyways.
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 04:24:31 PM
hard enough to balance a map properly for only ss.
the whole map dynamic relies on the ss, as it's kinda impossible to get away, to get through bottle necks or to cover well without it,
If you ask me, you are making the SS look a bit too powerful. You can very well win matches with minimum SS usage. That doesn't mean that I think, that the glove is a good idea, though.
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 04:24:31 PM
the teamplay argument is also quite stupid as 2 spies dominate one merc anyways.
Wat? We playin' the same game?
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 10, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
If you ask me, you are making the SS look a bit too powerful. You can very well win matches with minimum SS usage. That doesn't mean that I think, that the glove is a good idea, though.
those guys are speaking about NO SS USAGE AT ALL for the glove spy. besides, the times when you have to taze the merc are quite game deciding.
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 10, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
Wat? We playin' the same game?
by "dominate one merc" i mean that one merc can't do much against 2 spies in his area, by witch i don't necessarily mean trying to knock out or kill the merc, but rather hacking 2 objectives simultaniously or one spy covering the other. i pointed this out because i foresee people using the argument "if you can't get away with your glove, stick together with your teammate".
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 10, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
If you ask me, you are making the SS look a bit too powerful. You can very well win matches with minimum SS usage. That doesn't mean that I think, that the glove is a good idea, though.
those guys are speaking about NO SS USAGE AT ALL for the glove spy. besides, the times when you have to taze the merc are quite game deciding.
okay .. that really sound .. umm .. bad! :D
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Quote from: BurningDeath on March 10, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
Wat? We playin' the same game?
by "dominate one merc" i mean that one merc can't do much against 2 spies in his area, by witch i don't necessarily mean trying to knock out or kill the merc, but rather hacking 2 objectives simultaniously or one spy covering the other. i pointed this out because i foresee people using the argument "if you can't get away with your glove, stick together with your teammate".
okay agreed .. thanks for clarification!
If you can't get away with the glove, pick the shocker.
more options for gameplay style is always better, balancing can be done with playtesting
Quote from: Tinweasele on March 10, 2008, 06:02:14 PM
more options for gameplay style is always better, balancing can be done with playtesting
Yea, but not when the option is an either/or between two extremes. The glove idea would actually be better if it took up a normal gadget slot rather than replacing the sticky shocker completely.
the easiest solution would be creating a totally new type of objective that allows remote hacking with the ss and maybe some other specialities. this way, the map designer can put it in places balanced for remote hacking and we dont have the problem with no ss.
Quotethe only interesting thing is remote hacking. maybe we can add a new mode/new objective type similar to scda where you can hack from distance, safe the data and extract it.
Quote
the only way to implement this properly map-wise is creating a new type of objective.
Quoteif you add a 4th type of objective with remote hacking you can balance the map.
Quotei'm all for a new remote hacking game mode but with its own maps and settings...
Quotecreate a new kind of objective that can be remotely hacked without needing any different eq than your ss.
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 09:30:08 PM
the easiest solution would be creating a totally new type of objective that allows remote hacking with the ss and maybe some other specialities. this way, the map designer can put it in places balanced for remote hacking and we dont have the problem with no ss.
Repeating it several times over does not make you right....
Maybe only one spy can carry the glove while the other has the ss? You would be getting more aggro specific vs stealth specific, but this make for an interesting combo.
Quote from: Gawain on March 10, 2008, 09:30:08 PM
the easiest solution would be creating a totally new type of objective that allows remote hacking with the ss and maybe some other specialities. this way, the map designer can put it in places balanced for remote hacking and we dont have the problem with no ss.
Not having a ss isn't neccessarily a "problem". Some people may prefer to be able to hack out lights/windows/objectives from far away and sacrifice some aggro abilities. Maybe even throw in a merc hack, meaning you can hack the into the mercs like DA. Of course, it would be implemented better than DA's hack feature and it would be more useful. Maybe, you could make it disable all visions for 10-15 seconds if you hack into the merc for 5 seconds. While hacking into a merc their screen would go a little fuzzy and an audible beep would play every 2 seconds. That beep doesn't ping the reticule. Of course while the spy has the glove pulled out he lights up on EMF so that would give a merc a chance to possibly find the hacking spy.
I agree that there should be a new objective and it is made easier to hack by the glove, but still hackable by someone with a ss. With the glove it would go faster though.
rofl. i don't need a glove to disable lights and burts windows, i can do that fine with ss. i also need no tool to hack a merc as i can simply give him a ss headshot or ss + chaff/flash/smoke him.
Quote from: Gawain on March 11, 2008, 12:47:41 PM
rofl. i don't need a glove to disable lights and burts windows, i can do that fine with ss. i also need no tool to hack a merc as i can simply give him a ss headshot or ss + chaff/flash/smoke him.
Yes, but other people may prefer to do it in another way.
Quote from: Gawain on March 11, 2008, 12:47:41 PM
rofl. i don't need a glove to disable lights and burts windows, i can do that fine with ss. i also need no tool to hack a merc as i can simply give him a ss headshot or ss + chaff/flash/smoke him.
Ok, so you wont take it...simple ?
Key word there was "I". That's your preference. It could be made so that ss can't shoot out lights and takes a few shots to break glass.
no, it wasn't the keyword. so you want to criple the ss to make your glove idea more attractive? oO
Quote from: Gawain on March 11, 2008, 04:23:31 PM
you want to criple the ss to make your glove idea more attractive? oO
Who said that?
You can make both the glove and the ss viable options.
Nerfing ss doesn't come into play imo.
No.
The whole idea of a glove is stupid. Yes, this is my preference. If this was your game, then you can put your preference in, but my opinion actually matters, so don't go saying BS because it wasn't your opinion.
Everything you want is basically in the SS, except this is silent. You can break lights, windows, and hack mercs with the SS. Yet, people rarely do these things. Why? Because there is no real use for breaking windows or lights as it is right now.
Hacking an objective remotely is the shittiest idea ever. People hated DA because of that, and now you want to put it back in? Get real. A real man hacks up close. Are you a real man?
Traps just don't fit the gameplay. The spies mission is to get in, get data, and then get the fiddlesticks out. Setting these trap things will not help gameplay, but only make it more slow for stealth players, and make it easier for aggro players.
All the rest of your points are retarded, and it needs no counter.
thx ion :D
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 11, 2008, 06:26:40 AM
Maybe only one spy can carry the glove while the other has the ss? You would be getting more aggro specific vs stealth specific, but this make for an interesting combo.
Your on the same wavelength as me, boy. (haha that sounds does sound almighty gay).
Seriously, i dont have a problem in this gadget, if you dont like it dont take it. The SS is way more powerful anyway.. but this could be cool for stealth players.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 11, 2008, 07:17:36 PM
Everything you want is basically in the SS, except this is silent. You can break lights, windows, and hack mercs with the SS. Yet, people rarely do these things. Why? Because there is no real use for breaking windows or lights as it is right now.
No, its not basically in the ss, there are many differences between glove and ss, just read the first post, it will help.
Quote
Hacking an objective remotely is the shittiest idea ever. People hated DA because of that, and now you want to put it back in? Get real.
Not really. People didn't like DA because of many elements, like presence detector, taking away gadget fun, no stealth, too fast pace etc.
QuoteA real man hacks up close. Are you a real man?
hahah , huh ? That quote can be put to the same category as "we r all just a players".
Quote
Traps just don't fit the gameplay. The spies mission is to get in, get data, and then get the fiddlesticks out. Setting these trap things will not help gameplay, but only make it more slow for stealth players, and make it easier for aggro players.
What gameplay ? You mean the one we are trying to create ?
Its not true that glove and traps would slow spies. There would be more possibilities of playing. You would be able to play:
-stealthy with glove
-stealthy with ss (or take ss if you intend to change style during the game)
-aggro with ss
You could combine these game styles thanks to teamwork. If spy decides to play with glove, he would be forced to plan his moves on the map, which makes the stealth technics even more sophisticated.
Again, if you dont like the glove, dont use it and play with ss.
Quote
All the rest of your points are retarded, and it needs no counter.
kid.
Quote from: 0ctin on March 11, 2008, 08:04:15 PM
Seriously, i dont have a problem in this gadget, if you dont like it dont take it. The SS is way more powerful anyway.. but this could be cool for stealth players.
unfortunately some people cant understand it.
no, your are the kid here. just because his choice of words sounds immature doesn't make his point less valid.
The glove is actually ideal for speed-hack, where you run around the map hacking stuff and using your own mobility to keep ahead of the mercs. This is because the glove does not have to target anything. So you can easily disable static defenses in rapid succession as you move without aiming.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 11, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
The glove is actually ideal for speed-hack, where you run around the map hacking stuff and using your own mobility to keep ahead of the mercs. This is because the glove does not have to target anything. So you can easily disable static defenses in rapid succession as you move without aiming.
Make a 3 second delay for disabling things and you've made it a stealth weapon.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 11, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
The glove is actually ideal for speed-hack, where you run around the map hacking stuff and using your own mobility to keep ahead of the mercs. This is because the glove does not have to target anything. So you can easily disable static defenses in rapid succession as you move without aiming.
Its a pity you didn't read the first post:
Quote
The range is very limited. Hacking speed depends on how close you are to the hacking device. When you hack, you cant stop immediatelly. It takes the same ammount of time to enter/exit hacking mode as it gets for spy to start/stop hacking when its done without glove.
Okay, since Tin and I don't hate each other, we talked about this over xfire:
What we agree on:
The glove would be an alternative to the SS. It would be readied like the SS, and have an aiming mechanism. The advantage of the glove would be that it is completely silent fire -- that means you can shoot out lasers, cameras, motion sensors, light fixtures, whatever to your heart's content and not be heard. This might be of questionable use on some CT maps like Club and Missile with little passive security, but in PS's new engine with presumably more dynamic lights and better maps with security somewhere between PT and CT, this would be a godsend. The merc will still get a security failure message, though, so you can't be too careless. The glove would be on the same energy system as the SS and camo (and HBS if I had my way, and Tin agrees ^_^). Each use would fire some sort of bolt (or whatever effect you want to add) and use up a percentage of the energy meter. Oh, and since run-and-gun spies is teh ghey, gun energy only refills when the spy is stationary -- applies to anything that uses energy, not just the glove. The range would be unlimited, just like the SS.
Grenades would be thrown instead of shot. Cams, bullets, and snares (sorry, I'm not using your gay names frvge) would be fired from the glove via some sort of module on the top. All selectable gadgets would behave the same as if shot from the sticky shocker. Unless, of course, you guys want to come up with a whole completely new set of equipment for use with the glove, but that starts to get very complicated.
My main issue with it was that the SS was dual purpose while the glove was not, at least not as suggested here. So what we came up with is that the glove acts as sort of a scrambler for the merc -- it takes them out of special vision like the shocker, but unlike the shocker it doesn't freeze the merc in place for 4 seconds. Instead, it disables the sound reticle for a short period of time and makes vision static-like (I would say 5 seconds to start, adjust as needed). The merc's 12 sec invulnerable cooldown time is shared between the shocker and glove, so aggro spies can't shock ---> glove ---> run around to grab. The idea here is that the glove can still harass the merc, but its main concept is aiding stealthiness. By silently taking away the reticle and visions, that merc perching in a chokepoint can suddenly lose some of his senses, which can allow you to sneak by.
Iffy stuff
Of course, the glove doesn't have to be limited to just that stuff, so here are some random brainstorming ideas that came up during discussion.
The issue of remote hacking came up. I personally think that remote hacking should be 100% avoided in the "classic" type mode and put into a separate mode if it's desired enough. However, Tin came up with a couple ideas to use remote hacking.
Before we get into these, remember that remote hacking only affects neutralization objectives. You won't be able to remote hack an extraction or sabotage objective, so there's no point in discussing the balance implications there.
Solution 1. The remote hacking can only be done on non-objective hacks.
Solution 2. Remote hacking can only be done up to a certain % of the objective (25%-50%)
Solution 3. Remote hacking requires a 2 second setup/unsetup time, so if/when you're caught you're pretty much dead.
I'm a fan of solution 1, 3, 2, in that order. Tin seemed like he was in favor of 1 and 3 moreso than 2 because 2 would lead to a lot of running around and tap hacking in the beginning of the round.
Tin also came up with the idea of a secondary function for the glove. It would work by basically holding a lock on the merc, which would prolong the scrambling effect until your energy meter ran out. I'm not sure about this myself, mainly because I question the validity of holding a lock on a merc for 10 seconds, but I'm putting it out there anyway.
Tin also threw out the idea of having the SS be able to shoot out stuff like boards, while the glove cannot. I disagree because I don't think the map access should change based upon your equipment, but his reasoning is that he doesn't like the idea that the mercs always know the possible entry points of the spies. I threw out the idea of allowing spies to swap equipment, but then the game would just become a "counter whatever the mercs are taking" game, so there went that.
Finally, Tin came up with an idea to queue up multiple hacks before hitting them all simultaneously, but the usefulness of such an ability is questionable.
I gotta say, I think it's workable.
EDIT: Also, this item doesn't have to be a glove. It can be a newly modeled gun. It could be a dildo. Whatever. Kebab and b1nary can handle modelling it as they see fit.
Discuss.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 11, 2008, 09:46:28 PM
Finally, Tin came up with an idea to queue up multiple hacks before hitting them all simultaneously, but the usefulness of such an ability is questionable.
I don't get it.
i just got another idea for remote hacking:
let it start with 0% of the normal hacking speed, and increase the speed over the hacking time so that it's 100% after 4s and 200% after 8s. this way, speedhacking becomes ineffective and if you played stealth well you get extra credit for the merc needing longer to arrive or longer to look for your hiding spot. the maxium hacking speed can be limited by the range.
there are too main problems i forsee:
a)spy not being able to flee without ss
b)lame remote hacking spots like vents, ceiling, small gap, objective only effectively coverable by sniping etc
if i got it right, spekkio's post suggests a scrambler function that quickly (=without aiming?) allows the spy to disable the mercs visions and sound reticule which would help in regard a) (scramble, flash, 2s later second flash or smoke or camo and you're gone). the shared 12s cooldown also makes perfect sense. what stays is b), which would make it a really hard challenge (with lots of new limitations) for map makers. i also like the idea that one can hack every hacking panel with the glove.
Like, imagine that there are 3 light fixtures in a room. Instead of just shooting them out in order, you can queue them all up and hit all 3 out at the exact same time.
EDIT:
Quoteif i got it right, spekkio's post suggests a scrambler function that quickly (=without aiming?)
No, the glove would need to be aimed just like the SS and anything else needs to be aimed. The spy should also see some sort of graphical element that lets them know where it was fired.
ADDED: also, something I missed in my OP: tin and I were discussing the "run-and-gun" mechanic when it dawned on me: energy should only refill when the spy is stationary.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 11, 2008, 10:10:07 PM
Like, imagine that there are 3 light fixtures in a room. Instead of just shooting them out in order, you can queue them all up and hit all 3 out at the exact same time.
EDIT: No, the glove would need to be aimed just like the SS needs to be aimed. The spy should also see some sort of graphical element that lets them know where it was fired.
what if the glove could create an emp blow that disables lights, merc hud etc in a certain radius for a certain time?
Quote from: Gawain on March 11, 2008, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 11, 2008, 10:10:07 PM
Like, imagine that there are 3 light fixtures in a room. Instead of just shooting them out in order, you can queue them all up and hit all 3 out at the exact same time.
EDIT: No, the glove would need to be aimed just like the SS needs to be aimed. The spy should also see some sort of graphical element that lets them know where it was fired.
what if the glove could create an emp blow that disables lights, merc hud etc in a certain radius for a certain time?
Err, chaff anyone?
Btw, this doesn't have to be specifically a glove. It could be a second type of gun or whatever (helps with making it work with other gadgets).
my aoe idea just to clarify to help spies get away, would be like an aoe chaff that burns energy like camo centered on the spy. only usable when at full energy and mitigated by LOS by thick objects only, walls come to mind.(that affects mercs only, no knocking out security)
Quote from: neth on March 11, 2008, 08:16:52 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 11, 2008, 07:17:36 PM
Everything you want is basically in the SS, except this is silent. You can break lights, windows, and hack mercs with the SS. Yet, people rarely do these things. Why? Because there is no real use for breaking windows or lights as it is right now.
No, its not basically in the ss, there are many differences between glove and ss, just read the first post, it will help.
[/quote]
I did read the first post, and there were a few differences, but they made no sense, or else I didn't think they were needed in the game.
QuoteHacking an objective remotely is the shittiest idea ever. People hated DA because of that, and now you want to put it back in? Get real.
QuoteNot really. People didn't like DA because of many elements, like presence detector, taking away gadget fun, no stealth, too fast pace etc.
Remote hacking is also included in that. Just because you are only bringing one of the lesser evils, does not make it better.
QuoteA real man hacks up close. Are you a real man?
Quotehahah , huh ? That quote can be put to the same category as "we r all just a players".
That was sarcasm
Quote
Traps just don't fit the gameplay. The spies mission is to get in, get data, and then get the fiddlesticks out. Setting these trap things will not help gameplay, but only make it more slow for stealth players, and make it easier for aggro players.
QuoteWhat gameplay ? You mean the one we are trying to create ?
Its not true that glove and traps would slow spies. There would be more possibilities of playing. You would be able to play:
-stealthy with glove
-stealthy with ss (or take ss if you intend to change style during the game)
-aggro with ss
You could combine these game styles thanks to teamwork. If spy decides to play with glove, he would be forced to plan his moves on the map, which makes the stealth technics even more sophisticated.
Again, if you dont like the glove, dont use it and play with ss.
There, you just brought up another problem. There is going to be a set style from the beginning of the game. I usually change my style during the game, and there is a problem.
Quote
All the rest of your points are retarded, and it needs no counter.
Quotekid.
Sorry, I tried not to drop any swear words there. I was gonna drop an F bomb.
Quote from: 0ctin on March 11, 2008, 08:04:15 PM
Seriously, i dont have a problem in this gadget, if you dont like it dont take it. The SS is way more powerful anyway.. but this could be cool for stealth players.
Quoteunfortunately some people cant understand it.
I want rocket launchers. Don't like it, don't take it? That is why your reasoning doesn't work.
I am all for more spy weapons, but not this. It doesn't make sense to me.
No because you've taken it to extremes there buddy :D. Some people like Spy traps, I dont so i dont take them. Simple as. And the SS and Glove are fairly balanced, its not like a rocket VS a water gun here.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 11, 2008, 07:17:36 PM
No.
The whole idea of a glove is stupid. Yes, this is my preference. If this was your game, then you can put your preference in, but my opinion actually matters, so don't go saying BS because it wasn't your opinion.
K, that's your opinion. We have ours.
Everything you want is basically in the SS, except this is silent. You can break lights, windows, and hack mercs with the SS. Yet, people rarely do these things. Why? Because there is no real use for breaking windows or lights as it is right now.
Are you just ignoring every other use to just prove your point? You can break lights with the ss? Where? Like a few places IN FREAKING CT! This isn't CT. Have we all realized that now? Destructible lights are VERY possible and could be useful in PS, duh. They would be much more common and make maps much darker and easier for spy. With a ss you wouldn't be able to do this and with a hack glove, you would. OR, you could do it silently with the glove and make a lot of noise doing it with the ss.
Hacking an objective remotely is the shittiest idea ever. People hated DA because of that, and now you want to put it back in? Get real. A real man hacks up close. Are you a real man?
I didn't hate DA because of remote hacking, in fact, it had some good potential but it wasn't implemented as well as it could have been. I'm sure that most people didn't like it because the concept and depth was unappealing, lack of real teamwork and gadgets, the Presence Detector, LAG, the speed of the spy (wtf?), the maps were dull but designed well and balanced for wireless hacking, and more. Remote hacking could be fun if implemented into a better game and not ruined by other aspects that drag it down. I'm not saying that it should be the only way to hack, just an alternative, and sometimes it wouldn't even be the smart thing to do.
I guess "REAL MEN" would just take the ss then huh? ::) Or, they could take the glove and hack it directly, to be your definition of a real man.
Traps just don't fit the gameplay. The spies mission is to get in, get data, and then get the fiddlesticks out. Setting these trap things will not help gameplay, but only make it more slow for stealth players, and make it easier for aggro players.
Woah woah woah, easier for aggro players? Absolutely not Ion. They lose their nade launching AND ss abilities. How the hell do you figure that it makes it easier for them?
All the rest of your points are retarded, and it needs no counter.
Speak for yourself.
I would like to redirect everyone's attention away from the flamewar that goes nowhere and the post I put together from what Tin and I talked about, since we basically went with "okay, we're going to put this in the game, so how can it work" perspective. Reproduced here with clarity edits:
QuoteOkay, since Tin and I don't hate each other, we talked about this over xfire:
What we agree on:
The glove would be an alternative to the SS. It would be readied like the SS, and have an aiming mechanism. The advantage of the glove would be that it is completely silent fire -- that means you can shoot out lasers, cameras, motion sensors, light fixtures, whatever to your heart's content and not be heard. This might be of questionable use on some CT maps like Club and Missile with little passive security, but in PS's new engine with presumably more dynamic lights and better maps with security somewhere between PT and CT, this would be a godsend. The merc will still get a security failure message, though, so you can't be too careless. The glove would be on the same energy system as the SS and camo (and HBS if I had my way, and Tin agrees ^_^). Each use would fire some sort of bolt (or whatever effect you want to add) and use up a percentage of the energy meter. Oh, and since run-and-gun spies is teh ghey, gun energy only refills when the spy is stationary -- applies to anything that uses energy, not just the glove. The range would be unlimited, just like the SS.
Grenades would be thrown instead of shot. Cams, bullets, and snares (sorry, I'm not using your gay names frvge) would be fired from the glove via some sort of module on the top. All selectable gadgets would behave the same as if shot from the sticky shocker. Unless, of course, you guys want to come up with a whole completely new set of equipment for use with the glove, but that starts to get very complicated.
My main issue with it was that the SS was dual purpose while the glove was not, at least not as suggested here. So what we came up with is that the glove acts as sort of a scrambler for the merc -- it takes them out of special vision like the shocker, but unlike the shocker it doesn't freeze the merc in place for 4 seconds. Instead, it disables the sound reticle for a short period of time and makes vision static-like (I would say 5 seconds to start, adjust as needed). The merc's 12 sec invulnerable cooldown time is shared between the shocker and glove, so aggro spies can't shock ---> glove ---> run around to grab. The idea here is that the glove can still harass the merc, but its main concept is aiding stealthiness. By silently taking away the reticle and visions, that merc perching in a chokepoint can suddenly lose some of his senses, which can allow you to sneak by.
Iffy stuff
Of course, the glove doesn't have to be limited to just that stuff, so here are some random brainstorming ideas that came up during discussion.
The issue of remote hacking came up. I personally think that remote hacking should be 100% avoided in the "classic" type mode and put into a separate mode if it's desired enough. However, Tin came up with a couple ideas to use remote hacking.
Before we get into these, remember that remote hacking only affects neutralization objectives. You won't be able to remote hack an extraction or sabotage objective, so there's no point in discussing the balance implications there.
Solution 1. The remote hacking can only be done on non-objective hacks.
Solution 2. Remote hacking can only be done up to a certain % of the objective (25%-50%)
Solution 3. Remote hacking requires a 2 second setup/unsetup time, so if/when you're caught you're pretty much dead.
I'm a fan of solution 1, 3, 2, in that order. Tin seemed like he was in favor of 1 and 3 moreso than 2 because 2 would lead to a lot of running around and tap hacking in the beginning of the round.
Tin also came up with the idea of a secondary function for the glove. It would work by basically holding a lock on the merc, which would prolong the scrambling effect until your energy meter ran out. I'm not sure about this myself, mainly because I question the validity of holding a lock on a merc for 10 seconds, but I'm putting it out there anyway.
Tin also threw out the idea of having the SS be able to shoot out stuff like boards, while the glove cannot. I disagree because I don't think the map access should change based upon your equipment, but his reasoning is that he doesn't like the idea that the mercs always know the possible entry points of the spies. I threw out the idea of allowing spies to swap equipment, but then the game would just become a "counter whatever the mercs are taking" game, so there went that.
Finally, Tin came up with an idea to queue up multiple hacks before hitting them all simultaneously, but the usefulness of such an ability is questionable.
I gotta say, I think it's workable.
EDIT: Also, this item doesn't have to be a glove. It can be a newly modeled gun. It could be a dildo. Whatever. Kebab and b1nary can handle modelling it as they see fit.
Discuss.
For the record, just because you and Tin discussed this and had this amazing epiphany does not mean that any of this completely works or that other ideas were terrible. I can make a list with any other person on this forum of balance and unbalance for a certain item. Your post does come off as, "Tin and I have solved Pandora's Box and here is THE answer....Fin."
But, for the sake of that argument, I do like what I see. Very well defined and such. Time to pick it apart. The ideas of it being able to "shoot" are pretty cool. Scrambling the merc vision and making the reticule go away is a good call. Only flaw on that one is that if the merc has the presence detector (if in the game) will it be disabled too or will it still be activated rendering the glove useless for aggro tactic? There would be warning on the mercs screen of being interfered with yes? There would be a time scale before it actually turned off anything the merc had on to ensure that the merc is within range of the glove?
The solutions to the iffy section are just that...really iffy. Why not have certain objectives in a map that can be hacked by either glove or manually and other objectives that can only be hacked manually? This calls for more purpose of the glove and makes it still a selectable choice. All the objectives should not be both glove/manually accessed. Kind of like a disk drop off, where there might be one or two per map, but they don't determine a win unless other objectives were previously hacked. Solution 2 isn't really that bad of an idea, but would lead to maps being more "Steel Squat"-esque, which is quite shitty imo. Solution 3 is a terrible idea. Ensuring death because someone is using the glove is a pretty bad idea. The purpose of the glove would be for more sleathy reasons right? So the spy should be able to escape asap if a merc is near. They wouldnt be connected to the objective via cable. It would be wireless, so the spy should be able to just bounce. I'm not really a fan of any of the solutions. If you had a 1 sec lock up mode where what you hacked with the glove had to be disconnected before that information would stay hacked, that might be an option...not immediate death. Whereas when you manually hacked it automatically hacked off until the next time you visit the objective.
Most of the other things discussed weren't that intriguing towards game play. The queue seems pointless when theres security failures and such. If its not a glove, then the "glove" gun should have the OCP scrambler on it. The OCP shouldn't be available for both guns...unless its a gadget.
Quote
If you had a 1 sec lock up mode where what you hacked with the glove had to be disconnected before that information would stay hacked, that might be an option...not immediate death. Whereas when you manually hacked it automatically hacked off until the next time you visit the objective.
Interesting idea!
Very good post spekkio. A lot of good things to think about.
Can I add another solution?
Solution 4: Hack glove users can still directly hack into the terminal, but when remote hacking it takes much longer. Instead of hacking for the original 12 seconds, it would take around 60 seconds to fully hack from it's longest range. In other words, it takes 5 seconds to shave 1 second off of the objective.
There are 5 zones in which it hacks: Directly-4 ft away ~ Full speed/ 5-9 ft away ~ Double the time needed/ 10-14 ft away ~ triple the time needed/ 15-19 ft away ~ quadruple the time needed/ 20-25 ft away ~ FIVE times the time needed.
Possibly you could give the hack glove a battery that needs to recharge after a 50% hack of a terminal. It recharges when not in use.
Very wordy solution I know, but it seems logical to me.
QuoteFor the record, just because you and Tin discussed this and had this amazing epiphany does not mean that any of this completely works or that other ideas were terrible. I can make a list with any other person on this forum of balance and unbalance for a certain item. Your post does come off as, "Tin and I have solved Pandora's Box and here is THE answer....Fin."
I didn't mean to sound like my post was the end all solution; however, I do think it's the most workable and detailed version of a new spy weapon that anyone has come up with yet, as demonstrated by:
QuoteBut, for the sake of that argument, I do like what I see.
Really, anything left to iron out with this is relatively minor and would be done through playtesting.
This is mostly because our conversation started something like this:
Tin: aw, you can balance anything
Me: I don't believe you
Tin: sure you can, we can change anything we want. There are spies, there are mercs, we can do whatever.
Me: I still don't believe you. What exactly would be done to make it work?
*conversation ensues*
So really, it sounds like you're criticizing me just to find something to criticize...
QuoteThe solutions to the iffy section are just that...really iffy.
I posted them for the sake of discussion only. I agree they are iffy, and I don't know about them myself. That's why I didn't just flat out agree with them.
Oh, and a big fat NO to PD. NONONONONONO. It just doesn't work.
QuoteSolution 4: Hack glove users can still directly hack into the terminal, but when remote hacking it takes much longer. Instead of hacking for the original 12 seconds, it would take around 60 seconds to fully hack from it's longest range. In other words, it takes 5 seconds to shave 1 second off of the objective.
That doesn't really address any of the issues that remote hacking carries with it: namely, that A) it is extremely difficult for mercs to find the spies without a PD (which I don't think too many people would want in the game), thus making gameplay boring B) that, in the absence of extremely careful and restricted map design, the spies can hack from "safety" spots and C) that remote hacking can be used with the spy's superior speed and agility to abuse "tap-hacking." This is why I prefer solution 1: keep remote hacking off of objectives. It's fine for the few hacks that change map dynamics, but neutralization should be done up close and personal. My issue with Tin's solution 2 is that it's too complicated for the mercs to remember. "Wait, the spy got 37% with the glove, so he still can get 13% more but has to finish the rest by hand." It can also lead to a lot of the aforementioned "tap hacking" during the first half of the round.
I really think that remote hacking for objectives is best left to another game mode entirely.
QuoteWhy not have certain objectives in a map that can be hacked by either glove or manually and other objectives that can only be hacked manually? This calls for more purpose of the glove and makes it still a selectable choice.
I don't like this idea for the same reason I don't like Tin's idea of certain access points being destructable depending on the weapon. He tried to counter that with the whole coop thing, but coop is always readily available to spies so long as both are alive. It doesn't take up a gadget slot, and they don't need to sacrifice anything to get that ability.
I believe that the purpose of gadgets is, and should continue to be, to assist you in accomplishing the mission. Spy gadgets do this by augmenting recon, evasion, and harassment skills; merc gadgets augment tracking and killing skills. In no way should you require a certain item or ability in order to reach objectives unless that item or ability is always available to the player.
I think with increased dynamic lights and better security placement, the glove will be plenty useful. Also, being able to scramble a merc's hud silently will also be extremely useful; for all intents and purposes, it's a similar effect of a SS headshot minus the freeze time. Think how much harder Deftech would be to defend if you couldn't just MT whore and automatically pinpoint the building the spies are in based on the sound you hear with the security failure. Not that I'm advocating PS maps be like Deftech, but it's an illustration on how the weapon can be useful.
Just out of curiosity but is there any chance the glove could take on the model of a modified SS so as to prevent the awkwardness of launching things from the glove?
QuoteThat doesn't really address any of the issues that remote hacking carries with it: namely, that A) it is extremely difficult for mercs to find the spies without a PD (which I don't think too many people would want in the game), thus making gameplay boring B) that, in the absence of extremely careful and restricted map design, the spies can hack from "safety" spots and C) that remote hacking can be used with the spy's superior speed and agility to abuse "tap-hacking." This is why I prefer solution 1: keep remote hacking off of objectives. It's fine for the few hacks that change map dynamics, but neutralization should be done up close and personal. My issue with Tin's solution 2 is that it's too complicated for the mercs to remember. "Wait, the spy got 37% with the glove, so he still can get 13% more but has to finish the rest by hand." It can also lead to a lot of the aforementioned "tap hacking" during the first half of the round.
I really think that remote hacking for objectives is best left to another game mode entirely.
I provided a pretty reasonable range, 25 feet max, in which it takes 5 times longer to hack. Don't tell me it's going to be hard to find a spy in a range of 25 feet. Especially because you know if he is far away depending on the hack speed. Don't forget that spies light up on EMF when using the glove. Without remote hacking objectives, then really the glove loses A LOT of originality and uniqueness. It's one of its key uses, why take it away when it could still be perfectly balanced with it?
EDIT: @Psyichic: It could have a little barrel on the underside of the arm, or on the top side. Think about all the movies you see where people launch things out of little barrels on their wrists. That's what I'm getting at. Somewhat like spiderman, but there is a more distinct launcher. Think james bond where he pushes a button on his watch and a laser fires out, except think about a slender firing chamber on the upper side of the arm.
QuoteWithout remote hacking objectives, then really the glove loses A LOT of originality and uniqueness. It's one of its key uses, why take it away when it could still be perfectly balanced with it?
The problem isn't just finding the spy, but killing him as well. When I said "safety spots," I was referring to any spot where the spy could have a very high probability of surviving and escaping if spotted.
"Perfectly balanced" with your idea is a stretch because your version of remote hacking basically requires that maps be devoid of any objects or vents within a 25 m (or whatever length) radius of any objectives.
I don't think that remote hacking removes originality from the glove at all. In fact, remote hacking from a glove isn't an original idea in the first place; it's a direct ripoff from SCDA. And then there's the original issue that I have to begin with: I do not think the spy's access to objectives should change with optional equipment. Being able to hack at 25 m instead of at 0 m, whether slower or not, changes the way spies access objectives.
Put it another way: For all intents and purposes, putting remote hacking of objectives on an optional glove completely changes the game mode from neutralization to find the remote hacking spy. The best part? The mercs won't even know it until after you started hacking!
I think Tin is right in regard to one thing: a lot of people on these boards, including myself, get caught up in artificial constraints. In this case, the artificial constraint is that an alternative spy weapon has to be completely radically different from the current spy weapon, when that's not necessarily the case at all. We made more progress by taking the approach of we have this item (a glove), this is what we want it to do (provide a stealthier alternative weapon to the SS). This is how we would make it work (read previous post).
Look at the merc weapons: they all kill the spy. They all hold bullets and fire projectiles. They all make a loud, noticeable clank. They all work with the same gadgets and allow the merc the same HUD features. They are just tweaked to augment particular strengths and weaknesses.
Likewise, the glove or whatever has a strength in that it's silent to use. It allows you to disrupt the merc's tools for easier infiltration. Its weakness is that if you get into a pinch, you don't have anything to delay the merc, but you can still take him out of tracking stuff to throw a flash or run. Now, to compensate, the spy SS can be tweaked to be louder, or you can take away its headshot effect since the glove now pretty much does that.
All depends on implementation. But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking. Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss.
1. 3/4 of Spekkio's post are in the first topic post, so I dont understand this EUREKA!! behaviour, just learn to read
2. Remote hacking should only work up to 3 metres distance, otherwise its totally idiotic.
3. Nade traps are better than throwing.
It isn't THAT hard to place a few crates in the way of vents so that spies can't hack from there >.>
Make it a device like this instead of copying the DA one:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2752/schedaperbe0.png
<maybe more to the front of the hand>
QuoteAll depends on implementation. But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking. Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss.
Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.
As far as being different: the point of adding stuff isn't to make something that's different, but to make something that is useful without ruining the fun of the game. Being able to silently get around a map's security and disrupt is a useful feature, and probably wouldn't remove the fun of the game because the mercs would still get the messages, and thus be on alert looking for spies.
On the other hand, remote hacking objectives completely kills the flavor of the game. Not knowing what kind of game your playing beforehand kills the flavor of the game. Some people may not agree, but that's why I would hope that the devs ultimately put it in as a second game mode to appease those guys.
Quote3. Nade traps are better than throwing.
Unless there is a completely new gadget set that accompanies the glove, I don't think that changing the spy weapon should change the behavior of the spy gadgets. Like I said before, this doesn't have to be a glove; it can be another gun. Hell, it could be a shoe. Whatever works.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 12, 2008, 04:26:28 PM
QuoteAll depends on implementation. But a good reason to take the glove is that you aren't up for an easy headshot while hacking the objective and you can escape a lot more easily than directly hacking. Of course there are other reasons to take it but it makes it different from the ss.
Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.
Or have your mate cover you!
Quote from: Spekkio on March 12, 2008, 04:26:28 PM
On the other hand, remote hacking objectives completely kills the flavor of the game. Not knowing what kind of game your playing beforehand kills the flavor of the game. Some people may not agree, but that's why I would hope that the devs ultimately put it in as a second game mode to appease those guys.
Yeah, remote hacking blows.
I'd be okay with remote hacking door panels and such. But no way should you be able to remote hack objectives, unless it's from like a very close range just to avoid head shots.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 12, 2008, 06:16:25 PM
Yeah, remote hacking blows.
I'd be okay with remote hacking door panels and such. But no way should you be able to remote hack objectives, unless it's from like a very close range just to avoid head shots.
We are ONLY talking about it. No one wants to hack from even 5 metres, its about
up to 1 metre.....
Quote from: Spekkio on March 12, 2008, 04:26:28 PM
Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.
It would not influence the game, cause the range would be so low and there would be entering/exiting time when starting/stopping hacking
As far as being different: the point of adding stuff isn't to make something that's different, but to make something that is useful without ruining the fun of the game. Being able to silently get around a map's security and disrupt is a useful feature, and probably wouldn't remove the fun of the game because the mercs would still get the messages, and thus be on alert looking for spies.
Only if there is unpassable passive security on EVERY map, otherwise glove is totally useless.
On the other hand, remote hacking objectives completely kills the flavor of the game. Not knowing what kind of game your playing beforehand kills the flavor of the game. Some people may not agree, but that's why I would hope that the devs ultimately put it in as a second game mode to appease those guys.
You wouldnt even notice that its remote, cause the hacking range would be so damn low. It would only give the spy a chance not to die with the first shot aimed at head
Spekkio perhaps create new topic, cause talking about hacking glove without words "hacking" and "glove" kinda loses its point.
Quote from: neth on March 12, 2008, 07:17:10 PM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 12, 2008, 06:16:25 PM
Yeah, remote hacking blows.
I'd be okay with remote hacking door panels and such. But no way should you be able to remote hack objectives, unless it's from like a very close range just to avoid head shots.
We are ONLY talking about it. No one wants to hack from even 5 metres, its about up to 1 metre.....
Quote from: Spekkio on March 12, 2008, 04:26:28 PM
Not really. You're talking of implementing something like DA, and DA sucks. As far as escaping, if the spy does his recon then escaping isn't that difficult. The mistake I see 95% of players making is that they hack until a merc comes to shoot them, and by then it's too late. Even if you get away, the merc will see exactly where you went and adjust accordingly. You want to leave before the merc enters the room.
It would not influence the game, cause the range would be so low and there would be entering/exiting time when starting/stopping hacking
As far as being different: the point of adding stuff isn't to make something that's different, but to make something that is useful without ruining the fun of the game. Being able to silently get around a map's security and disrupt is a useful feature, and probably wouldn't remove the fun of the game because the mercs would still get the messages, and thus be on alert looking for spies.
Only if there is unpassable passive security on EVERY map, otherwise glove is totally useless.
On the other hand, remote hacking objectives completely kills the flavor of the game. Not knowing what kind of game your playing beforehand kills the flavor of the game. Some people may not agree, but that's why I would hope that the devs ultimately put it in as a second game mode to appease those guys.
You wouldnt even notice that its remote, cause the hacking range would be so damn low. It would only give the spy a chance not to die with the first shot aimed at head
Spekkio perhaps create new topic, cause talking about hacking glove without words "hacking" and "glove" kinda loses its point.
No....no it doesn't. The point of this topic is to possibly find an additional spy weapon. Trying to balance it and place it in the game isn't as easy as "this is the hack glove, which can do AAAALLLL OF THESE NEW COOL THINGS." You need to figure out if its going to be useful and not take away from game play....while not being op at the same time. Spekkio's initial post was better than your original post because it was well defined. Notice how I went into devil's advocate mode and tried to pick at things? Trying to be constructive you know? The more and more I think about it, the more and more I don't want the glove. Its seemingly getting more redundant.
oh sure but does it have any point if 3/4 of people here dont read posts and repeat same things over and over again. Why dont you tell us why you dont want the glove, unless its an argument like: "It doesnt fit the genre"
another idea: let the spy stay in activated camo while firing the "glove" (but noth should drain battery of course).
Quote from: neth on March 12, 2008, 08:35:08 PM
oh sure but does it have any point if 3/4 of people here dont read posts and repeat same things over and over again. Why dont you tell us why you dont want the glove, unless its an argument like: "It doesnt fit the genre"
Maybe you should read the fuckin posts too yea? Up until now I was for the glove....the entire time practically. Don't try and tell me I'm not giving any arguments. As of right now I'm rethinking the idea a bit more. Spekkio is right in saying the only way to appease some people would be an alternate game mode. If you were to place it in regular SvM it has to get balanced and the devs would have to do a good amount of extra work. I'm rethinking the idea as to whether or not it shouldjust be another gun the spies have or whether we should actually think about using the glove. Another gun with the OCP implemented into it seems like it would be BETTER in terms of anything you want to blabber about. I never said anything about not fitting the genre....ever in this thread. You should pay more attention before you just go and make such ignorant posts.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 12, 2008, 09:18:55 PM
If you were to place it in regular SvM it has to get balanced and the devs would have to do a good amount of extra work.
I realise it but compare it to Starcraft in which every race has its own unique units and to some random RTS in which every race has pikemans as primary units.
Creating another gun just wont work, cause when you give people 2 things which look similar, work similar and differ in details, they wont be thinking about which fits their style but about what gives them bigger advantage. If a glove is placed in, it must look very different, work very different, sound very different.
My opinion:
- OCP is a great idea
- throwing nades is terrible, cause its impossible to create new animation which will look cool when standing, running, crouching.
- grenade traps are a simple way to introduce diversity and its not OP
- Hacking from
1metre distance is not OP, it just gives you a chance to avoid first fast headshot. Entering/exiting hacking would take the same time as it takes when you hack manually, you should only be able to hack from the same terrain level.
- I agree with Spekkio about disturbing instead of tazing
- Glove should break glass and turn off some lights fast - with auto aim (like 30% auto aim). Its not powerful, its just a cool feature, it shouldnt use the energy - and if it would, really not much.
- You should be able to shoot bullets, cams etc with your glove but not nades.
- Glove should give you improved battery, so you can stay in camo for longer.
I think that being able to stay in camo while firing, as Gawain suggested, is an idea worth considering, since you dont do anything abusive and its a stealth gadget.
Quote from: Gawain on March 12, 2008, 09:01:55 PM
another idea: let the spy stay in activated camo while firing the "glove" (but noth should drain battery of course).
Oooh, I like it. It would definatly add more stealth to the glove.
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
Then you'd have an OP piece of eq.
Imagne a ss that can turn lights off without making noise, it could disturb mercs HUD etc... too OP.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on March 13, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
Then you'd have an OP piece of eq.
Imagne a ss that can turn lights off without making noise, it could disturb mercs HUD etc... too OP.
Read the post. It can only disable lights and hack those panels, like in clubhouse.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on March 13, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Then you'd have an OP piece of eq.
Imagne a ss that can turn lights off without making noise, it could disturb mercs HUD etc... too OP.
Except you can't fire anything, or taser mercs, or cam them, etc.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
No one would use this.
Quote from: neth on March 13, 2008, 06:54:19 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
No one would use this.
I agree here.
Why not just add the OCP as standard, and take out the glove completely, the only reason anyone would take the glove IMO would be for the OCP, as the SS is way more powerful, even for stealth players, so why not just put it in the standard SS, and scratch the glove idea.
PS: Sorry if i sound harsh here, its just how i feel.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: neth on March 13, 2008, 06:54:19 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
No one would use this.
I agree here.
Agreed.
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 09:26:26 AM
Why not just add the OCP as standard, and take out the glove completely, the only reason anyone would take the glove IMO would be for the OCP, as the SS is way more powerful, even for stealth players, so why not just put it in the standard SS, and scratch the glove idea.
PS: Sorry if i sound harsh here, its just how i feel.
Thats not a bad idea actually. It sounds harsh towards the glove, not the community, so your good ;)
Quote from: FusionSlayer on March 13, 2008, 12:14:32 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 13, 2008, 07:12:08 AM
Quote from: neth on March 13, 2008, 06:54:19 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 13, 2008, 12:33:12 AM
What if, instead of being a weapon, it was a gadget. Instead of hacking objectives, it could only disable lights for a minute, and hack panels?
No one would use this.
I agree here.
Agreed.
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 09:26:26 AM
Why not just add the OCP as standard, and take out the glove completely, the only reason anyone would take the glove IMO would be for the OCP, as the SS is way more powerful, even for stealth players, so why not just put it in the standard SS, and scratch the glove idea.
PS: Sorry if i sound harsh here, its just how i feel.
Thats not a bad idea actually. It sounds harsh towards the glove, not the community, so your good ;)
Hehe thats ok then, i didn't want to piss anybody off.
Spartacist says: Who's for the OCP just being put on the SS and scratching the glove?
Quote from: Gawain on March 12, 2008, 09:01:55 PM
another idea: let the spy stay in activated camo while firing the "glove" (but noth should drain battery of course).
Hell, why not let a spy using camo use his ss as well. I always wondered why you couldn't do that...
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 02:21:16 PM
Who's for the OCP just being put on the SS and scratching the glove?
me.
i think ct should be more about the decisions you make ingame instead of the decisions you make before the game even starts (gadget/weapon choice). if the ocp was permanent for all spies, finding the balance for it would become easier, too.
Quote from: Gawain on March 13, 2008, 03:11:38 PM
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 02:21:16 PM
Who's for the OCP just being put on the SS and scratching the glove?
me.
i think PS should be more about the decisions you make ingame instead of the decisions you make before the game even starts (gadget/weapon choice). if the ocp was permanent for all spies, finding the balance for it would become easier, too.
fixed....
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 09:26:26 AM
Why not just add the OCP as standard, and take out the glove completely, the only reason anyone would take the glove IMO would be for the OCP, as the SS is way more powerful, even for stealth players, so why not just put it in the standard SS, and scratch the glove idea.
PS: Sorry if i sound harsh here, its just how i feel.
The idea of another key weapon option for spies was the main thought here. One being more aggro intended and one being more stealth intended. The OCP being on the SS would be fine. I have no quarrels now with the glove being cut. At the same time, if we implement it like Spekkio and neth have been saying....I wouldn't mind it. Its a matter of what we really need. This would be a nice additive feature, but really nothing more.
Quote from: FusionSlayer on March 13, 2008, 12:14:32 PM
Thats not a bad idea actually. It sounds harsh towards the glove, not the community, so your good ;)
you're....;)
ok mr. grammer police .... ;D
Quote from: Gawain on March 13, 2008, 03:11:38 PM
Quote from: 0ctin on March 13, 2008, 02:21:16 PM
Who's for the OCP just being put on the SS and scratching the glove?
me.
i think ct should be more about the decisions you make ingame instead of the decisions you make before the game even starts (gadget/weapon choice). if the ocp was permanent for all spies, finding the balance for it would become easier, too.
I say scratch the glove then. However, you are giving a lot of stealth abilities to spies and letting them keep their aggro abilities at the same time. I'd rather have them choose. If the OCP makes it on the ss, then what would be the point of shocking a security laser? Or, will this be turned base like the coop on CT? If so, then I'd love it. But if you can use the OCP on a laser, put your gun away, then go through it, it might affect the gameplay in a negative way. If you have to have your OCP pointed at the laser while your partner walks through it, then he returns the favor, I think it would be awesome and add some much needed coop elements into the gameplay.
So its agreed the glove should be scratched?
Discuss.
Start here:
"I say scratch the glove then. However, you are giving a lot of stealth abilities to spies and letting them keep their aggro abilities at the same time. I'd rather have them choose. If the OCP makes it on the ss, then what would be the point of shocking a security laser? Or, will this be turned base like the coop on CT? If so, then I'd love it. But if you can use the OCP on a laser, put your gun away, then go through it, it might affect the gameplay in a negative way. If you have to have your OCP pointed at the laser while your partner walks through it, then he returns the favor, I think it would be awesome and add some much needed coop elements into the gameplay."
;)
QuoteHowever, you are giving a lot of stealth abilities to spies and letting them keep their aggro abilities at the same time. I'd rather have them choose.
Equipment loadouts geared toward "full stealth" and "balls-to-wall aggro" generally don't fare well. Spies need to have flexibility.
Agreed, but this gives them a lot of both without having to sacrifice anything. Pretty generous if you ask me. My question and discussion point was this:
Would the OCP be like CT coop? Where you have to hold the OCP on the device while your partner goes through? Or will it be like CT Single Player where it disables the thing entirely for a given amount of time? If it's the second option, it would have a bad impact on gameplay I'm guessing. If it's the first option, the game would be THAT much better and include a much needed Cooperational aspect.
i suggest dropping the glove idea and placing the ocp on the ss.
i see lots of interesting teamplay possibilities with this with more passive security. just imagine cinema lobby: one spy ocp-scrambles a motion sensor, and the other one qickly crouch-dives to the other side. awesome :D
however, my main concern is that it allows both spies to get through a laser grid (mutual ocp cooping) which is a bad thing. so far my only idea to balance this out is having the ocp draining really much energy.
QuoteAgreed, but this gives them a lot of both without having to sacrifice anything. Pretty generous if you ask me. My question and discussion point was this:
If an OCP-like gadget is put in on the SS, then just make it work like the coop one. Since you need the spies together for it to be useful, they don't need to sacrifice something for it. It would also eat a lot of time on the clock for the spies to use it, and give the mercs a lot of time to come find them. In other words, it already has negatives built into it.
You could also implement the alternate spy weapon, be it a "glove" or otherwise. Then the spies have to sacrifice the SS for it.
I know, that's what I said in the other half of the post that you didn't quote. To me, it seems like the best solution. As well as a new remote hack gametype for the DA junkies and for those who want to have GOOD remote hacking gameplay. If possible of course.
I think that if you want something as cool as the ocp, you have to sacrafice ss and take something that fits the stealth style of ocp....the glove.
Besides, why is it that only mercs can have many weapons and spies are forced to play the way ss allows them, its discrimination of stealthy players.
giving mercs 3 different weapons was (and still is) already a bad idea...
It basically gets the same result as having 1 gun with 3 attachments that modify the gun drastically.
And lol at the discrimination for stealth players quote.