What is this? My third thread in a couple days?! Kill me before I make another!!! Just kidding.
So, for spies. What about like a utility belt? It's a gadget that takes up a slot but it lets spies bring a couple extra grenades or maybe some extra gadgets.
How about this:
Gives spies 2 more of each grenade type they carry
Gives them 1 more of each security item they carry ( stickies, snares, bullets )
Possibly it could give some extra juice for camo suit or ss? Maybe not, maybe so.
This could give them a little too much though. But if it only gave you 2 extra smokes and flashes and one more sticky I'd take it.
What do you think? Suggest PLEASE! This is an idea and not the final stage of how it would be balanced or helpful or both!
Oh yeah, it would look like batmans belt except instead of the bat insignia on the buckle it could be like a green light or something.
Would you guys like something like this? Like a mini version of a backpack for spies?
If you need this, it means that you either:
1) live too long (bad)
2) run into the merc too much (bad)
3) love making happy faces on the wall ( :), but bad)
More nades=more aggro. Unless you make it that activating it takes 5 secs of immobileness.
This is not an opinion on the gadget (not sure, I didn't think the holo through thoroughly so I'll contemplate this one a bit more carefully ;)) but shouldn't we also consider the aggro player? We are creating environments and what not that are stealth based but an aggro player can work with that. What an aggro player can't work with is not enough tools that are aggro friendly. I'll be completely up front here, I love aggro. I'm a bit biased on the subject but I do think that with the way we have made sure not to restrict play styles, we should not shy from giving the player something that an aggro player would benefit from.
I agree, all play styles should be supported.
Im for it If we add time required to refill (as frvge said). Not sure if it should be 5 sec or less. Anyway, I support the idea.
no. there's already enough smoke/flash/chaff/quickcam spamming going on and it had to provide some serious additional amount of stuff that players would give up a slot for it. i also don't like the similarity to backpack.
QuoteWe are creating environments and what not that are stealth based but an aggro player can work with that. What an aggro player can't work with is not enough tools that are aggro friendly. I'll be completely up front here, I love aggro. I'm a bit biased on the subject but I do think that with the way we have made sure not to restrict play styles, we should not shy from giving the player something that an aggro player would benefit from.
This forum is anti-aggro on the whole, but some of the most tense games I've had involved aggro spies and killing one off as one or both of the mercs had just 1 life left.
good aggro players benefit more from reliably working flash bangs, no funny/lag charges etc than from an equipment belt that does nothing but encourage nade spam.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 12:09:59 AM
QuoteWe are creating environments and what not that are stealth based but an aggro player can work with that. What an aggro player can't work with is not enough tools that are aggro friendly. I'll be completely up front here, I love aggro. I'm a bit biased on the subject but I do think that with the way we have made sure not to restrict play styles, we should not shy from giving the player something that an aggro player would benefit from.
This forum is anti-aggro on the whole, but some of the most tense games I've had involved aggro spies and killing one off as one or both of the mercs had just 1 life left.
Finally someone that thinks like me...I was starting to feel lonely here.
the gadget loadout is quite balanced in ct (sadly not the gadgets themself)
stealth gadgets: camo, hbs, snares, chaff, cams,...
aggro gadgets: smoke, flash, chaff, spy bullets, quick cams,...
it's impossible and stupid to make a clear separation, but there's tools for both aggro and stealth players and most gadgets can be used by both in different ways (flash for getting to a hiding spot <> flash for going for necks; chaff to disable mines without removing them <> chaff for keeping merc out of vision modes etc)
I'm not going to tweak equipment to completely eliminate aggro (story is suppose to be a little bit of DM and a little bit of disk hunt). But I'm not going to support aggro (by designing equipment specifically for it), it's against the spirit of the game and I certainly don't want half my games against full aggro.
Well, sure a lot of players would use it for aggro. I'm not "anti-aggro". It's not my personal playstyle, but I respect the ones who do it well. Sure it isn't the designated way to play, but there honestly shouldn't be a designated way to play the game. It's whatever gets the job done for you.
Most of the time, when I'm out of nades or cams, escape is MUCH tougher! Almost impossible with good opponents. I'd like an easier way to get some more other than getting myself killed or asking my selfish partner politely.
actually it's quite easy not to spam smoke/flash so that you got enough left to escape and it's also quite possible to play without smoke/flash at all.
Yeah but if you live long enough your gadget supply is going to decrease. My idea rewards those players who live long enough and it gives them the oppurtunity to live even longer. The only way to escape without gadgets is to shock the merc and hopefully you can break the line of sight.
I use flash not for aggro tactics, but for escaping. If someone uses them for aggro then cool, whatever, good for them. Like you said, some gadgets can be used for aggro and stealth alike.
This is a gadget to complement all other gadgets, rather than just being a gadget with its own unique use. It helps the others and gives you a better supply of them. But the question is rather you'd be willing to sacrifice one of your gadgets for the good of the others.
Quote from: Overstatement on December 06, 2007, 12:34:08 AM
I'm not going to tweak equipment to completely eliminate aggro (story is suppose to be a little bit of DM and a little bit of disk hunt). But I'm not going to support aggro (by designing equipment specifically for it), it's against the spirit of the game and I certainly don't want half my games against full aggro.
Huh?
The game genre was named stealth-
action. How is highlighting the action part going against the "spirit of the game?"
I swear, sometimes people on here think the spies ought to just hide in a corner and cry for the whole game.
With all due respect aggro is a good thing. Yes, it will own you at first but if you learn how to deal with it you become a much better merc in the process. Also your spy aggro should improve if you deal with it alot by trying to counter what you do to counter it. Its a process of learning and improving and unless aggro is unbalanced to the point its BETTER than stealth then that's a balance issue. That's my opinion on it anyways...
If theres a camo for stealthy players why cant there be a belt for aggro ones.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 06, 2007, 09:17:30 PM
I swear, sometimes people on here think the spies ought to just hide in a corner and cry for the whole game.
Sitting in a vent the entire game ftw!
Spy: Have you guys seen my partner?
Merc: Nope but I heard some noise behind the fish tank in Pirates...?
Look familiar to anyone? :D
Agro should be an option but the stealth route should be a more attractive option for the player. This was where CT and DA failed, by making agro seem quicky, easier and more effective than stealth the veteran players were at two extremes of either shadow hugging dirtbags or flash-bang cracked up spider monkeys.
omg aggro is already quite a viable option there's no need at all to boost it, especially not by giving spies a tool to spam. stealth will get a strong boost anyways with fixed sound, mt, darker maps etc.
Or you can drastically nerf aggro. Give less health ( say 2/3 of what they have now) and it's done.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 06, 2007, 11:38:52 PM
Or you can drastically nerf aggro. Give less health ( say 2/3 of what they have now) and it's done.
why the fuck would we want to nerf aggro???
both aggro and stealth should be viable options. for most intense gameplay, a mixture of both should be the most effective.
Aggro spy talkin'...
You said you wanted to boost stealth, so i suggested to nerf aggro, so the balance evens.
LOOK:
PS will have a much more viable option for stealth right? Darker maps with possibly destructible lighting and camo being much more useful. ON TOP of that the merc visions will be nerfed to prevent them from whoring them right? Stealth will already be the prime choice of gameplay with all of these changes being made.
What I'm suggesting is something that helps BOTH playing styles. It gives aggro players some more gadgets to use for neutralizing, distracting, killing, or whatever else. AND it gives STEALTHY SPIES who LIVE long enough because they use stealth, some more stuff to use in case they run out and need to escape. Because generally, the longer you are alive the more your inventory will decrease in numbers right? It does help stealthy players a bit, maybe not as much as aggro.
IT BENEFITS BOTH PLAYING STYLES, NOT JUST AGGRO!
Quote from: Gawain on December 06, 2007, 11:42:02 PM
both aggro and stealth should be viable options. for most intense gameplay, a mixture of both should be the most effective.
With my suggestion hopefully aggro should be as viable as stealth will be. Surely you all see how much more effective stealth will be than aggro with all of the changes.
I just have this idea that if we "officially" support aggro with gadgets, it would mean 50% of my games win by aggro. Like the Battlefield games, you die 50% of the time by vehicles and I don't want that. The current aggro percentage is fine by me, I'm just scared this gadget will bump up the ratio.
Aggro has a place to distract/delay the merc but (given even numbers and skill) aggro should usually result in retreat or death of the spy most of the time. In a fight, merc is stronger than spy. What's wrong with thinking that?
To reiterate, the current stealth/aggro ratio is fine. Don't unbalance it by adding aggro-based gadgets.
That's where you are wrong. With the changes that are being made stealth would be used far more than aggro techniques. Because of the darker maps, possibly destructible lighting, better camo, nerfed visions. Stealth is going to recieve a big boost while aggro is going to be decreased greatly. Just adding a gadget that gives you some more grenades and one more security gadget isn't going to give aggro players a lot of new capabilities. It would just bump that ratio back to where it is now. Like you like it Overstatement.
Don't I get a huge point for this mod being limited to UT3 players?
If the maps are darker, it also makes the aggro players' life easier. I think aggro benefits more from the belt than stealthplayers. What you can do, is equipping the belt and then go to a special Spy refill station, inaccessible to mercs. Refilling takes 10 seconds. Less aggro, more stealth.
Aggro will automatically be buffed when funny punches, insta grenades, and lag charges are removed from the game anyway.
+no emf ghosting which is a huge boost for smoke nades as you can't see spies using no vision running around or away from you any more.
a gadget that simply increases the slots is boring especially considering the mercs got the same thing. it will also create serious balance issues and lead to spam. with the current amount of smoke nades and sticky cams, the mask capacity is almost balanced (smoke nades are a little bit too strong), but how do you want to balance it with the double amount of smoke possible to be taken?
A friend Desolator of mine says he'd like possibly deployable ziplines and a Mine Detector Rat (http://www.boingboing.net/images/_images_rat.jpg) ;D.
Deployable ziplines would pwn on vertigo :D
Deployable ziplines is an awesome idea but im not sure if it will work, it would need limiting to like only being able to carry one, so after each zipline you have to pick it back up, or it would be too easy for spies to manouvre around and could be exploited. Also this way it would stop spies who just keep running and running from picking it back up if there is a mercanary waiting to kill them at the other end, so you would be forced to judge your enviroment properly before you deploy the gadget.
I also think this brings up a point, I think mercanariess should also be able to zipline, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to and it's something they could do with, mercanarys should have a box with a supply of deployable ziplines at their base which if spys break into, they could also use to stock up with, mercanariess should have two though considering their limited movement compared to spies.
As for the Mine Detector Rat, :D.
ziplines are stupid.
rats could be a funny tool to trigger mines, mt vision and passive security.
How about if you can only use your belt to refill your gadgets once you've used all of them? So people aren't constantly spamming nades all at once. No EMF ghosting isn't A HUGE boost, maybe a decent one. Really, it is a HUGE BOOST for stealth players, with no EMF ghosting. I don't see what your point is. A mistake would be flipping on EMF in the middle of smoke when you could turn on motion and see him clearly and not as a ghost.
He'd also prefer a single customisable weapon like having a choice of attatchments for the top and bottom of th gun. Something like Scope, Sling to reduce/eliminate recoil. For the bottom you could have a choice between bipods, grenade launcher or dual clip (http://www.buysell.ph/adpics/4704553049102d59bdcc6c95e.jpg)
P.S.
Ducky suggest we remove a merc player and replace him with a K9 dog with smell-o-vision :D Also spies should get a deployable steak that sets off the dogs sniffer recticle. :P
I think the rats thing would be stupid, it may be funny but it's a novelty, all it is, is another way of dumbing down the game, DA failed because of that. Lets compare these rats to our team-mates 'No offense meant for anybody I ever played with :D' they help you pass security, they help you confuse mercanaries and thus are also a way of distracting MT Vision, and you can have partners help you trigger and remove or blow up mines already, it's a funny idea but in practice it simply wouldn't work.
Ziplines aren't stupid they are realistically actually a very good idea I beleive. Like I said there would need to be some limitations but that doesnt change the fact it's actually a brilliant concept.
Directed towards Gawain.
Your idea obviously pwnzz allz Sithdukeeee :o.
leave ziplines to the map makers
I reckon zip lines would be alright as you can only go down - if you could go up then I agree it would be pretty crap but i think it would make a great tactical tool. Also it should only be able to penetrate certain materials - plaster walls etc. - think about if your in museum, planted the bomb at the top and have a zip line down to the lower storage door - much more efficient. I think this would be best in conjunction with spies not being able to survive falling down an entire floor, bit silly really.
P.S the rat was just a joke. (That really is a mine detector rat though.) True story.
it would be about 0.5s less with a zipline XD
cmon guys admit that ideas like ziplines, rats, utility belt etc suck.
Rofl - warp speed zip line?
Quote from: STON3COLDKILLA on December 07, 2007, 06:04:15 PM
I think the rats thing would be stupid, it may be funny but it's a novelty, all it is, is another way of dumbing down the game, DA failed because of that. Lets compare these rats to our team-mates 'No offense meant for anybody I ever played with :D' they help you pass security, they help you confuse mercanaries and thus are also a way of distracting MT Vision, and you can have partners help you trigger and remove or blow up mines already, it's a funny idea but in practice it simply wouldn't work.
Ziplines aren't stupid they are realistically actually a very good idea I beleive. Like I said there would need to be some limitations but that doesnt change the fact it's actually a brilliant concept.
Directed towards Gawain.
Your idea obviously pwnzz allz Sithdukeeee :o.
"A friend Desolator of mine says" :P
Rats were actually a joke. Think about it, a moving snare that blows up on mines and sets off MT. That's a hilarious idea. Ziplines are really underused in PT and CT because they leave you very vulnerable and make alot of noise. At least if you can put them where you need them or intend to go it'll help you alot. And lets be fair there's no way a zipline can really be an offensive ability.
What about if you fired the zip line horizontally and it becomes a regular grab-able pipe/wire thing - inverted neck break ftw. kthx
all zip lines make you vulnerable. even on polar base a zip line tool would suck. there are zip lines on most maps and they are used quite rarely. if there's a spot good for a zip line, the map maker can implement it in a balanced way. really no need for an additional tool.
the idea with the inverted neck break pipe is just hiliarious.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 06:20:07 PM
all zip lines make you vulnerable. even on polar base a zip line tool would suck. there are zip lines on most maps and they are used quite rarely. if there's a spot good for a zip line, the map maker can implement it in a balanced way. really no need for an additional tool.
The best place for a zipline is where people dont expect it - so putting them in the map sucks anways. I think the idea is that you can place it where you want which gets you where you want to go - not where the map thinks you want to go.
Quote from: Gawain on December 07, 2007, 06:20:07 PM
the idea with the inverted neck break pipe is just hiliarious.
Is that a good or a bad thing ???
it's way too hard to arrange it.
I think we made it clear a long time ago that we would try to introduce new things that would favor stealth play without nerfing aggro as it is in CT.
So is that for or against the idea?
Expanding on my previous idea of custom weapons - very crude visual aid i chucked together, but you get the general idea.
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc42%2Fdesolator2k%2FCTgunscopy.png&hash=074f2aa1d5d36fef013d796da5b6613772543e72)
Strap wouldn't reduce recoil, only a foregrip or mabye a butt stock that is padded would reduce that.
I kind of like the idea of portable ziplines. You could set one up where a disc is then you could get away faster using it.
... Recoil is reduced by what is called a Muzzle Break. It exhausts the gases upwards and at a slight angle towards the back of the gun. The effect of this is the end of the gun is pushed back down against the recoil and the slight backwards angle of the exhausted gases pulls the gun away from the user further countering the recoil. Butt Recoil absorbers don't help maintain aim, they just keep it from beating the living piss out of your shoulder. Straps well... if you loop your arm through it (hard to explain if you haven't done it), you can use it to help stabilize the shot but other than that they are good for... well.. carrying the gun and that's about it :)
True binary, but a foregrip helps you maintain control of your gun especially with automatic fire in close quarters. A padded butt stock doesn't feel as hard because it's padded and helps reduce impact on your shoulder. Can't see what good a strap would do helping you stabalize, maybe a tiny bit.
Yeah i realise a strap wouldnt really do that but this is a game. ;)
Remember there are laser mines and proximity mines and all other kinds of malarky.
I did think about this actually and thought it might help if they implement a penalty to accuracy while running. The stap could help with this and another upgrade could be an improved stock.
A foregrip would both look cooler and be more realistic.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 07, 2007, 09:16:34 PM
Can't see what good a strap would do helping you stabalize, maybe a tiny bit.
I'll try to explain it but it's much easier to demonstrate, if the gun has a sling and you are right handed, you hold it as you normally would with your right hand and then holding the gun with the strap hanging down put your right hand through the strap, now with your arm still through the strap snake your hand under the strap then bring it up onto the stock as usual. The strap wraps around your forearm and just by bringing your left elbow up a little it tightens up the strap pulling the gun firmly into your hand. It helps to steady a rifle in the upright position when there is nothing to take a rest on.
Another Update - This is more of a brainstorm and yes I am aware some of them are crappy but they are just a few ideas ;). Tell me what you think anyways. :D
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc42%2Fdesolator2k%2FCTgunscopy-1.png&hash=8488ad4feba796f138ce92c27d4502c094b767ac)
^ That should say "Puts the idea of Pnades to good use"
Not a bad concept, but those attachments are far too imbalanced. I mean, if given the choice between grenade launcher and foregrip, the choice is pretty much given.. And what's the drawback of the sniper scope, strap and better stock for example?
Yeah I agree the balance is totally off, but possibly each item would have it's own negative drawback to balance it's self as aposed to trying to balance them each against each other.
Another way of balancing may be to catogorize them so you can have 1xlaunchers nadelauncher/shottie etc. 1xWeapon improvment stock/taped up rounds/foregrip etc. and 1xItem Scope/phospherous bullets etc.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 08, 2007, 12:59:00 AM
Not a bad concept, but those attachments are far too imbalanced. I mean, if given the choice between grenade launcher and foregrip, the choice is pretty much given.. And what's the drawback of the sniper scope, strap and better stock for example?
Scope would leave you open to a grab like it does in CT. Strap could get caught on a hook as you jump down some stairs and you'd hang yourself and the stock can jam then explode in your face. Weee!
there's no real need for different weapons or customizing weapons with attachments, but if we go for more weapon variety i'd prefer attachments.