i was thinking would it be possible to change your equipment in the game for merc, ie gun , mines, cam net, and so on rather than stick with the 4 you start with?. It would make it interesting...
No. It would encourage aggro more:
Go spam nades, go get more, repeat.
Quotefor merc, ie gun
I doubt if since if you could everyone would go grab shotguns and uzis.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 08, 2007, 02:42:16 PM
No. It would encourage aggro more:
Go spam nades, go get more, repeat.
yup... but what if you could only change when ur dead?
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 08, 2007, 03:27:44 PM
yup... but what if you could only change when ur dead?
Yeah, I like the idea of being able to change while dead. Changing while alive sucks. Not so muhc for spies but for merc. Place a bunch of mines and traps and then change your gear to something else. Or infinite frag spamming.
SPies are actually balanceable with refillable gear. Just like in DA, it takes a while to return to the spawn point. Often times, it may not even be worth it since you are in a race against time.
Changing while dead would be something neat to try out. I worry about potential imba of spies taking sneaky equipment in the first part of the round when objectives are plentiful and spread out, then switching to "balls-to-wall aggro" equipment to get the last objective. It gives them an easier time overall.
I don't really foresee the mercs changing equipment too often, with the exception of dropping the rifle in favor of the uzi or shotgun against an aggro spy team.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 08, 2007, 06:19:04 PM
Changing while dead would be something neat to try out. I worry about potential imba of spies taking sneaky equipment in the first part of the round when objectives are plentiful and spread out, then switching to "balls-to-wall aggro" equipment to get the last objective. It gives them an easier time overall.
I don't really foresee the mercs changing equipment too often, with the exception of dropping the rifle in favor of the uzi or shotgun against an aggro spy team.
Yeah it would probably end up helping the spies a bit. Mercs would probably only want to switch weapons, that's about it. Since there's rarely any reason to actually change your gadgets as they are done now. Besides mercs dont tend to die as often, so there's less opportunity to change. So yeah, definitely advantage spies on that.
READ GUYS~THIS COULD WORK OUT!!!
Okay guys, think COD4. Hopefully there are some of you who played it, which is EASILY the best game of the year, so go play it if you haven't lol Before the game you can "Create a Class" where you choose your weapons and gadgets. You get 5 slots of these classes to edit. So, while you are dead you can switch to a different class with different gadgets and maybe for mercs a different gun that you have edited before the game. During the game, you can't edit these classes, only in the lobby. BUT you can switch between the classes while you are dead.
NOTE: You can name these classes like: Aggro, Stealth, All Purpose, Infiltration. That way, you know what class you are changing to if you realize you need you need certain gadgets for the job at hand.
Example:
Spy---
Class 1: Smoke Nades, Chaff, Sticky Cams, Heartbeat Sensor - Sticky Shocker
Class 2: Flash Nades, Sticky Cams, Spy Bullets, Alarm Snares - Spy Glove ( If implemented )
Class 3: Smoke Nades, Chaff Nades, Flash Nades, Sticky Cams - Sticky Shocker ( aggro loadout )
Class 4: Chaff Nades, Alarm Snare, Holo Pod, Heartbeat Sensor - Sticky Shocker ( Stealth loadout )
NOTE: You can edit the names of the classes and edit the gadgets they have. You change classes while you are waiting to respawn.
Merc ---
Class 1: Frag Grenades, Tazer, Gas Mask, Back Pack - Uzi ( Close Quarter Combat )
Class 2: Frag Grenades, Gas Mask, Back Pack, Camnet - Sniper ( Long Range Combat )
Class 3: Gas Mask, Camnet, spy finder, Flares - Sniper or Uzi ( Recon ) just an example
And so on and so on. You don't have to make classes for certain jobs, you could make a class for all purpose or whatever you want.
What about that?! I think that it would work out perfectly! You can't refill your gadgets at the spawn or anything but you can change them between lives.
You switch to the class that you think is at hand. Example:
If you bring in your sniper class against players that were really aggro, you could switch to your close range class that you edit with all of the weapons and gadgets that you prefer for close range.
Another Example:
If you are a spy and you see that the mercs are CONSTANTLY whoring MT and using a shitload of mines, you could switch to a class with chaff, stickies, or heartbeat. THen, you wouldn't be stuck trying to beat a guy with motion by using flash grenades. The only way to switch classes though, is if you die.
Sound good everyone? Personally, I think it would be a great addition to implement something like that into the game!!
Sorry for the long post but it is something that could totally work!
sorry for the short post, but it's something that would be totally redundant.
Redundant how exactly?
Quote from: Spekkio on December 08, 2007, 06:19:04 PM
Changing while dead would be something neat to try out. I worry about potential imba of spies taking sneaky equipment in the first part of the round when objectives are plentiful and spread out, then switching to "balls-to-wall aggro" equipment to get the last objective. It gives them an easier time overall.
I don't really foresee the mercs changing equipment too often, with the exception of dropping the rifle in favor of the uzi or shotgun against an aggro spy team.
the mercs would be advantage( witch I don't think there is any major advantage for either of them and it would be just for some bigger 'freedom' and more fun) the same way : when objectives are plentiful and spread out you take stuff to cover a large area like nades/sniper/mines/traps and then if you get to protect only 1 or 2 objectif you take tazer/shotgun...
You still need to die to change equipement and I don't think anyone will be like -I'm going aggro... going to kill my self
Why should some1 be allowed to change there eq. mid match? Weren't we talking about balance? This would unbalance a lot right away.
Next, why not make it like Counter Strike and buy the weapons? Then upgrade. Etc.
I say nay.
Again westfall, you miss the point. It's not unbalanced, everyone can do it. You can't just like change it while you are playing or refill. You only have 4 lives right?
it's stupid. people will take stealth eq at the beginning and triple nades towards the end or some other lame shit. you can also spam snares and bullets, die (not voluntary), and take a totally different gadget so you got the advantage of snares but need no slot for it etc etc etc
tell me one good reason we should add this.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 09, 2007, 09:04:20 AM
Again westfall, you miss the point. It's not unbalanced, everyone can do it. You can't just like change it while you are playing or refill. You only have 4 lives right?
No no, I understand it quite clearly. I don't think its necessary. It won't help the game play and will just lead to mercs changing for aggro and spies changing from stealth to aggro. I just don't see it as being necessary.
I think it's a good idea because if you always have the same weapons and stuff it can get boring after a while. Variety is always a good thing :)
Quote from: Christf on December 09, 2007, 06:52:24 PM
I think it's a good idea because if you always have the same weapons and stuff it can get boring after a while. Variety is always a good thing :)
Variety is a great thing. You learn the more you play, and you learn which combinations are more useful compared to others. The, you change your eq. You can find different patterns in your eq that work better than others. You can even find eq that will work for all situations.
I just don't think it would be necessary to implement into PS. Its a fine idea for a game like CoD4, but this is a completely different concept we're working with. It seems a little outlandish for this type of gameplay.
you can change you're eq for your next spy round. it's not that rounds last that long, usually <12min.
I prefer the solution with one set of eq for whole round with no option to change during it.
I play stealth the whole way through usually. I never change my tactics. Even though my equipment can be used for both aggro and stealth. Personally, I think that losing my lives in the last few minute is a bad idea. Aggro usually leads to losing lives because you are closer to death every second.
GET A PC !!
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 10, 2007, 05:42:01 PM
GET A PC !!
haha one companion in my consoles-suck-campaign XD
seriously, there's no reason why you don't learn ct on pc in the meantime so that you can rather understand what we're talking about.
Quote from: Gawain on December 10, 2007, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 10, 2007, 05:42:01 PM
GET A PC !!
haha one companion in my consoles-suck-campaign XD
seriously, there's no reason why you don't learn ct on pc in the meantime so that you can rather understand what we're talking about.
Getting a PC has nothing to do with this. At all. Anyone can decide what they want in the game. Its just a matter of the devs accepting it or not.
Ya, just because PS is being released on the PC doesn't mean all PC gamers can jump up on their pedestals and act as though their say means more. I've played the game on PC and Console and the differences you claim in tactics don't really appear as obvious to me. For example, you claiming that there is less agro on pc is complete bs, its harder to do but its still there.
But. All in all. I agree this idea makes the game to unbalanced. It used to be my "thing" to learn what the merc had during a game so I could plan against him. If he could keep changing this each life then it'd be much harder to play.
I've played some PT on PC. Stfu.
Quote from: Gawain on December 10, 2007, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 10, 2007, 05:42:01 PM
GET A PC !!
haha one companion in my consoles-suck-campaign XD
seriously, there's no reason why you don't learn ct on pc in the meantime so that you can rather understand what we're talking about.
More like another fuckin idiot with their PC elitist BULLSHIT attitude. Learn to accept that you don't have to own a PC to understand SvM gameplay. I'm sure there are some console players out ( including me ) that could whoop your ass on console. And I am sure there are some PC players out there ( including people on this forum ) that could whoop my ass AND your ass on PC.
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 10, 2007, 08:12:27 PM
I've played the game on PC and Console and the differences you claim in tactics don't really appear as obvious to me. For example, you claiming that there is less agro on pc is complete bs, its harder to do but its still there.
Yeah, aggro is less successful on PC, but so is stealth. In general, PC favors mercs heavily, because of large screen resolutions, high quality post render, EAX and mouse-based sniping. Playing on PC tended to be more of a damned if you do, damned if you don't approach to aggro. Often times I'd go aggro when stealth plain out wasn't working, since there was basically no way of sneaking past a motion whore on PC without aggroing him, even if it's just a shock + nade + run.
the level on pc is obviously way higher than on console.
as invisible pointed out, both aggro and stealth are harder on pc, but there are some maps that are balanced quite well (steel, orph, club).
I'd say spies on the PC have a much harder time than the spies on the console. Spies have to deal with EAX, high quality vision modes like EMF ghosting and NV-MT. I'd say PC players are better snipers but I've never played console so I wouldn't really know. How accurate and fast are the snipers on console Tidenburg? Do they all take shotgun/uzi instead? Is host advantage on the consoles too? I'm sure the console would feel like a completely different game for PC players and vice versa.
Anyways changing gadgets mid-game I think is a bad idea. That's how I won 3v1 on DA playing Boss House against QLemont and his posse. Hack some, use all my needles, run back to spawn for 3 more and repeat. If all gadgets are are useful in alot of common situations then there shouldn't be any huge need to switch them out.
Changing equipment mid-match is a bad idea. The game is also about planning your loadout beforehand and then using it to the best of your abilities. If you can just change when you want, that aspect of depth is thrown right out the window. Plus it's unrealistic, it is a game, but we still need to think about practical applications if we can. If this was real life, the spy couldn't just stop half-way through a mission and be like "You know what? I think I will bring my sticky cameras, lets just go all the way back to the insertion point, jump in the jeep and go back to HQ." :P
I do agree somewhat with Papa Skull, just in a differant light. This is an idea i've been talking about since PT. You can assign a specific loadout to each map, so you won't have to change everytime the map changes. For example, Clubhouse I would bring Uzi, Spy Traps, Nades, Mines and Backpack... while Orphanage I would be Shotgun, Nades, Gasmask, Spy Traps and Mines. Instead of always going into the equipment page everytime a map is changed, you can assign specific items based on to each map independtly, and when the map changes, it will automatically change for you. No more, OH crap it's Missile Strike and I forgot to change to sniper rifle. "HOST PLEASE RESTART!!11"
Maybe do the same with friends on your list. Depending on what 'buddy' is on your team, it will automatically swith to a pre-determined loadout. I know boddyjean always take camnet, so I should bring Backpack ect.
Think about this:
Mercs ONLY have 3 lives. SO they can only switch their equipment 2 times because of their life limit. You CANNOT refill your gadgets during your life. I never said you should be able to. I DO think that you should be able to switch a loadout between lives. Spies would only be able to change their equipment loadout a few times because of their life limit. You can't edit your loadouts during the game, only switch to different ones that you've set in the lobby or out of a game.
Quote from: Zedblade on December 11, 2007, 06:17:33 AM
Maybe do the same with friends on your list. Depending on what 'buddy' is on your team, it will automatically swith to a pre-determined loadout. I know boddyjean always take camnet, so I should bring Backpack ect.
How? Via IP address?
with automatic gadget switch you would also have to check if it's right, especially with two variables (map + partner). it should definitely be no auto-detection but a save-eq-for-this-map option.
another way simpler solution: show your eq in the server lobby and not in some extra menu.
ps: zed, you're playing without mask on club? in my experience you got serious problems towards the end when you run out of mask so i can't really imagine how you manage to keep up with this eq. would be nice of you to tell me your covering plan/behaviour against smoke so i can try out something new (pm/xfire) =)
Quote from: Gawain on December 11, 2007, 01:12:33 PM
zed, you're playing without mask on club?
Not only him, i don't (usually) take mask on any map, unless im playing with my mate.
Changing eq should be like CoD4 or CS(with the buy time limit), so you can adapt your eq to your opponents.
Quote from: Gawain on December 11, 2007, 01:12:33 PM
with automatic gadget switch you would also have to check if it's right, especially with two variables (map + partner). it should definitely be no auto-detection but a save-eq-for-this-map option.
another way simpler solution: show your eq in the server lobby and not in some extra menu.
ps: zed, you're playing without mask on club? in my experience you got serious problems towards the end when you run out of mask so i can't really imagine how you manage to keep up with this eq. would be nice of you to tell me your covering plan/behaviour against smoke so i can try out something new (pm/xfire) =)
Didn't we talk about mates being able to see each other's equipment? Probably good to implement here.
Wait, Gawain, do you mean let everyone who is in the lobby see it? You did say show it in the lobby. Don't let the other team see your equipment.
nope. only you should see your eq in the game lobby.
another solution would be giving some seconds after the game started to select the eq while you can see which eq your partner takes. this could also be made awesome with a minimap in which you can paint so that you can arrange a strategy.
Quote from: Gawain on December 12, 2007, 02:43:55 PM
nope. only you should see your eq in the game lobby.
another solution would be giving some seconds after the game started to select the eq while you can see which eq your partner takes. this could also be made awesome with a minimap in which you can paint so that you can arrange a strategy.
I hate mini maps =/.. reminds me of too much of Cod 4 on a friends xbox360 , gay if someone knows where your enemy knows where you are all the time =/.
Further more, Papaskull get a Pc soo i can whip your Candyass
Wtf? What's with all the PC Elitisist bullshit these days? :D Get a console so I can whoop your candyass :D
I have skills with the game, just on a different version. SO PLEASE, stop with all this fucking bullshit towards console players.
I think the equipment when you die thing wouldn't work personally, and most certainly changing ingame wouldn't.
Reason I don't think it would work is that, well there's things you try to keep realistic in games and things you don't, in COD4, and games alike they let you change equipment when you die because it's a shooting game which actaully benefits gameplay because it's a game which people want to change equipment alot in when dead, it really works well for shooters too.
But for a game based on stealth action, not shooting, I'm not so sure... an old saying is "If it's not broken, don't fix it" and it applies here, there really is no need for it, the point of Stealth Games it to be very tactical and think before you apply, that would be broken if you can change equipment after you die or while playing IMO.
i guess the console players don't have that much time to actually think as they are fighting with the crappy controls all the time ;D
Quote from: Gawain on December 13, 2007, 12:43:17 AM
i guess the console players don't have that much time to actually think as they are fighting with the crappy controls all the time ;D
Actually I find it just the opposite. You really have to think more because the controls aren't as good. So positioning and tactics become more important in a console game than a PC game, where you can just try to get by purely on your speed advantage over the other guy.
Quote from: Gawain on December 12, 2007, 02:43:55 PM
nope. only you should see your eq in the game lobby.
another solution would be giving some seconds after the game started to select the eq while you can see which eq your partner takes. this could also be made awesome with a minimap in which you can paint so that you can arrange a strategy.
I'm pretty sure I brought this up in another thread. Has there been a decision made on this, or nay?
No, we first focus on getting something that works Like walking around.
walking is awesome
Just as cool as 'hardcore crouching'.
Quote from: Gawain on December 13, 2007, 12:43:17 AM
i guess the console players don't have that much time to actually think as they are fighting with the crappy controls all the time ;D
It may feel crappy to you, but not the people that have spent years on the same controls Gawain. I don't think about what button I am pushing anymore, I just got used to it. And since you took one crack at using a controller you say OMFG DIS SUCKS WHAT BUTTON DOO I POOSH!!!?
dude, it was meant in an ironic way...
thouth there's some truth in it as pc controls > console controls easily.
Well yeah, if you count the fact that you can assign moves to their own keys then yeah, they are better. Other than that, they are just different. It's all about what you are used to. If you played on console for years like I have then you wouldn't think that they are so much better.
rofl mao no further comment needed
Thats like saying the PS controller is better than the xbox. They're completely different and its only a matter of preference. Beside gawain, you will be the most biased seeming as you currently the biggest PC fanboy on here ;)
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 13, 2007, 07:06:12 PM
And since you took one crack at using a controller you say OMFG DIS SUCKS WHAT BUTTON DOO I POOSH!!!?
Oh man I know that... Got killed in Halo 3 on easy mode cause instead of shooting I was reloading all the time.
Yep, it's a matter of preference and what you are used to. The only thing PC has for it is that you can decide what you want the controls to be. I can just stick to defaults on any game and get good at it and not worry about what button I poosh. ( I love that word I just made up lol )
PC controls actually are better. Better in the sense that they're faster, more responsive etc. It's easier to snipe on a PC for instance than it is on the xbox.
However, faster and more responsive controls don't always mean better gameplay. Especially when you want to get people to focus on tactics, sometimes having controls that are too good means it just turns into a game of twitch skills and no real tactics, because if you just beat everyone via speed. then it may not matter what tactics you use. Also it invariably means host advantage is bigger on a PC, becuase it may just take half a second to get a sniper headshot instead of a full second or 1.5 seconds on a console controller.
So better controls don't always mean a better game.
Good point.
Advantage of PC controls are the assignment properties to certain keys and the mouse. Mouse makes joystick(s) look stupid.
I don't need to change buttons around. Usually, the controls are decent on default. Then, I get used to the default and I don't worry about what I'm pressing, I just do it.
i guess in the pc version is way less place for mistakes on both sides which is not a bad thing.
the problem though is that the mercs gain more advantage from better aim and are not only better against aggro, but also against stealth. with enhanced specialization of the vision modes, a boosted camo and fixed sound there will open up way more stealth opportunities thus creating balance without drastically changing map design.
my point remains that controls shoudln't be the limiting factor and that you (papaskull) probably suck at this game compared to invisibleman. this mod is primarily created for the vets of the pc version of pt/ct and not for some stupid console kids ffs. if you want to be part of the pc communnity, you gotta adapt to it.
When I played PT and CT on PS2 I found it almost as enjoyable as i do on PC, obviously it's better on PC as they are more widely played, and more full on the PC than the PS2, plus the controls are actually better.
But the console games are still great :D. I played CT on an Xbox at my friends house one time and it's just as fun.
These threads always turn into Gawain and Papa bickering back and forth. Talk about uninteresting.
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 14, 2007, 03:28:38 AM
These threads always turn into Gawain and Papa bickering back and forth. Talk about uninteresting.
Shit, at least Spekkio and I make disagreements entertaining!
Spek care to debate PC vs Console with me? Show these noobs how it's done? ;D
well i guess there's nothing more to say about changing eq while dead, it's simply bad for this kind of game.
I think refilling is bad. Not switching your equipment while you are dead because you only have 4 or 3 lives anyways. That means you can only switch 2-3 times. And you have to die before you can switch. What is someone going to do? Run up to a merc because they forgot their stealth loadout and let the merc kill them? I highly doubt it. Is someone going to get themselves killed to get their aggro loadout with under a minute left in the game? No because they will have wasted a quarter of a minute just by getting killed and respawning.
What if you didn't know that the spies you were facing were totally aggro players and this is what you brought:
Frags
Backpack
Spy Traps
Cam Net
and an assault rifle
Basically, if you didn't bring gas mask or you brought a sniper for a longer range attack, you'd be screwed. If you were able to switch to your aggro loadout ( Frags, Tazer, Camnet, BackPack and an uzi ) you would have a better chance at winning or atleast staying alive. Of course this all depends on your skill level and the enemy skill level, but it doesn't matter if you brought the wrong equipment for the job.
I've got a ton of examples of how this could help.
the fact that it would help doesn't make it good for the gameplay. i'm sure rocket launchers would help both teams, too...
the thing about choosing you eq is that you later have to adapt depending on your "ressources" and make the best out of it. if you want both aggro and stealt capabilities, you can adjust your eq with you mate's eq, for instance one takes flash, smoke, sticky cams, bullets, the other one takes snares, chaff, sticky cams, hbs etc.
the fact that most good players takes sniper over 90% of the time shows that you stand a good chance against aggro with it (probably different in the console version).
there are also possibilities to lame with eq switching.
I take sniper 90% of the time. But I would always rather have an uzi against aggro players. Sniper works fine against them, but uzi works great against them. People can still use their teammate's equipment to help their game. One person could take an aggro loadout, the other could take a stealthy loadout. Then if the aggro player realizes that the mercs all have shotguns and uzi's, the spy would know that the next time he dies to take a more stealthy approach with a stealth loadout. THEN the mercs still have to make the best use out of their uzi's and shotguns because now both spies are using a stealth loadout.
People would still adapt, people would still use their mate's equip yadda yadda.. It would just fix the problems where you accidentally take the wrong weapon or whatever.
it would be nothing more than a mindless gadget counter game...
...like it is now...
Quote from: Gawain on December 15, 2007, 12:17:49 AM
it would be nothing more than a mindless gadget counter game...
you mean that for you the out come of a game is 100% on what gadget the teams took?!?!
nope. but if you change your eq because of the enemies eq (who can change it too following this idea) things become ridiculous. simply take a balanced loadout from the very beginning and adapt to your enemy. you're point is not valid at all because opponents playing 100% aggro or 100% stealth is way easier to counter than an unpredictable mixture anyways, no need to add more options and reduce thinking.
We're still discussing this whole changing equipment ordeal, yet we've come to the conclusion that it just isn't going to work for this style gameplay?
What are peoples views on swapping weaps and equipment with your partner during game?
Interesting....
Seems kinda pointless really...
True, but still interesting. More of a time-waster.
The only use I can see this being is if you have to carry bombs like modems in PT. That way you could give your teammate extra bombs so the mercs wouldn't expect a spy to have so many bombs. Something like that anyways.
It could be nice. Like if you wanted to switch the areas you are guarding with your teammate you could switch him guns if they work better for that area.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 15, 2007, 09:02:59 PM
modems in PT.
These were cool. Are they gonna be in PS ?
Anyone remember the best 212 modem spot wasnt even in 212? :P
And the best exhibition modem wasn't within 100 feet of the objective.
Good times.
Quote from: LoChang on December 16, 2007, 01:33:05 AM
And the best exhibition modem wasn't within 100 feet of the objective.
I don't know this one.
MOdems were crazy in PT, because it became solely a game of hide the modem, which was pretty stupid. I prefer CTs bombing objectives a lot better. There is variety of where you can place the bombs, but you cant just go and place them anywhere.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 15, 2007, 10:24:52 PM
Anyone remember the best 212 modem spot wasnt even in 212? :P
You probably mean the spot on the pipe outside.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 16, 2007, 05:13:02 AM
MOdems were crazy in PT, because it became solely a game of hide the modem, which was pretty stupid. I prefer CTs bombing objectives a lot better. There is variety of where you can place the bombs, but you cant just go and place them anywhere.
simple minded.
How about for bombing we have select areas you can put them and not set points? There would still be a guessing game but you know atleast in what area they could be.
Maybe if the bomb at least had to be at a set elevation, like a narrow band or something you could put it. Like for instance if it was a circle around each boiler in the tech room in Aqua. I don't really want crouch oplaced bombs and bombs at high elevation though. Lets avoid the PT style game where you basically played Double Agent, only with a spy elbowing you in the face and tossing smoke on you.
If you want to return PT modem placement, you'd have to make the modem show up as a blip on the radar. It wouldn't give away height, of course, but at least you wouldn't be on an endless wild goose chase for those suckers.
To be honest, I'm not much of a fan of sabotage in CT, either. Relies way too much on EAX to find the bomb.
Yeah that's what I was trying to suggest invisible but I couldn't find the words for it.
with eax/some experience/camnet you don't have to guess where the bomb is. maybe we can implement the bomb objectives in a better way...
Maybe they shouldn't beep. Rather, a clock pops up with the amount of time you have to defuse. You know where the bomb drop off is, so its in that certain area. I also think that the merc should dod a little more than shoot the bomb to defuse it. Going up to it and actually turning off the bomb with a 2-3 sec. animation, with the option of berserking, seems a little more gameplay balanced.
Another idea, spy should be able to plant the bomb and not activate it, or activate it with remote control. This only goes for the objective, nothing else.
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 17, 2007, 08:10:55 PM
Another idea, spy should be able to plant the bomb and not activate it, or activate it with remote control. This only goes for the objective, nothing else.
This would definitely be a boost to stealth players.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 17, 2007, 08:22:51 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 17, 2007, 08:10:55 PM
Another idea, spy should be able to plant the bomb and not activate it, or activate it with remote control. This only goes for the objective, nothing else.
This would definitely be a boost to stealth players.
You were already stealthy enough to actually place the bomb weren't you? This will also give mercs a reason to pay attention to every objective closely. I think it might be a fine balance. But keep throwing the flaws to see if we can figure something out.
What about planting at ex, heading to mono setting Ex off then instantly hitting mono? The timers would be almost syncronised and either they let one of them slip or both come and cafe is open.
Well, where else do you see two bomb objectives?
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 17, 2007, 08:25:04 PM
You were already stealthy enough to actually place the bomb weren't you? This will also give mercs a reason to pay attention to every objective closely. I think it might be a fine balance. But keep throwing the flaws to see if we can figure something out.
Well yeah, I think it's a good idea because it's a boost to stealth players. Right now, bombs are aggro objectives. Effectively you throw down the bomb then you lie in wait to try to aggro the merc and at least delay him before he disarms the bomb. This feature would give stealth players a good chance to use bomb objectives as a distraction.
And on a side topic about museum, I'd really like to see that go back to the old PT style, where you actually had to worry about all the objectives instead of just cafe camping.
no sound for bombs or a better sound implementation should be enough. small areas for the bombs sound also good to me, like a room with lots of pipes and you can place it anywhere on a pipe.
if you remove the ability to shoot/frag the bomb, aggro becomes way stronger and you had to boost the timers so i'm quite unsure about it.
Station? Well, a bit...
Nah like Aqua the bombs aren't independant so once a bomb is set the rest disappear so it doesn't really affect Westfalls idea of remote countdown bombs.
remote control sounds kinda overpowered to me. on the other side, mercs would look for bombs and you can't really use it for aggro.
It might be a bit overpowered since you could sneak to Ex, plant then head back to cafe. When the first merc goes to secure the newly ticking bomb both spies could double the single merc. What if remote detonating was a gadget and/or had a certain range restriction before the signal wont reach the bomb.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 18, 2007, 12:01:55 AM
It might be a bit overpowered since you could sneak to Ex, plant then head back to cafe. When the first merc goes to secure the newly ticking bomb both spies could double the single merc. What if remote detonating was a gadget and/or had a certain range restriction before the signal wont reach the bomb.
Well that's actually the point, and how it tends to benefit stealthy spies. If you manage to sneak to ex and not get spotted, then you've got the abiltiy to pull off this advanced tactic. Keep in mind, this is pretty hard to set up as it requires that you move in to Ex undetected and then get back to cafe in position with your partner.
This could work if there was max range from which you can detonate the bomb.
I like timer-based more. You have 10 seconds to relocate and then push the button to commence hacking. Or press the button immediately.
I would love this remote bomb idea! Seems perfectly balanced to me. Just make the bomb time a little longer if you must.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 18, 2007, 12:01:55 AM
It might be a bit overpowered since you could sneak to Ex, plant then head back to cafe. When the first merc goes to secure the newly ticking bomb both spies could double the single merc. What if remote detonating was a gadget and/or had a certain range restriction before the signal wont reach the bomb.
I doubt PS will have museum in it for some time, unless someone makes it and gets copyright permission. The maps will be different in PS. Maybe we should think of an idea to make it work for any maps that may have more than one bomb objective. Maybe an "Alternative" not to allow detonation with remote? It would only be necessary for these instances.
it would be needed whether there is 1 or 2 bomb objectives, but it's the biggest problem in a run-in-circle maps like museum.
how about this: it takes some time till the mercs are notified that there is a ticking bomb somewhere. we would need a higher timer for this which would help stealth and nerf the running in circle bs.
Best counter to running in circles is PT style passive defenses. Nobody ran in circles in the PT version of museum, there was just too much stuff you had to shoot out.
...or dodge.
it's still possible to quickly shoot out stuff. i'd prefer moving cameras pointing at entrances so that you have to wait sometimes to disable them and stealth players can dodge them with good timing. another idea is really spamming motion trackers working like on ump cinema. with chaff no longer working through walls, mines actually would slow down this bullshit. hopefully this can be confirmed by the dev crew.
I don't see the real need to nerf chaff to not work through walls. If it doesn't work through walls then it may aswell not even have a quick use function because it's quicker to shoot whatever yoru disabling half the time. I doubt I'd even take chaff if that was the case, at least if it goes through walls chaff is useful for breaking the bottlenecks of a map.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 09:45:57 PM
it's still possible to quickly shoot out stuff.
Yeah, though whether you're ducking or your just stopping to shoot, at the very least, this sort of thing prevents you from just speed rushing through the map to some degree.
If we really wanted anti-speed hack stuff, we could just implement a new type of static defense. A motion sensor that reacts only to running, but can't be shot out. That way you must fast crouch past sections of the map, and thus be slowed down.
Chaff is very useful at the minute, how else are you gonna get through loads of proxies with a merc shooting you or you're poisoned.(Yes both of these set off a proxy mine, slow or not) 5 chaffs with quite a miserable radius and duration isn't gamebreaking at all.
You didn't see people run around much in PT because if you triggered an alarm or triped a pasive defensive laser, you'd not only warn the merc or locked out from the objective, you'd actually be locked in the room. Having no escape basically meant your death.
Bwahaha, nothing worse than being trapped in storage. >.<
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 18, 2007, 11:23:58 PM
If we really wanted anti-speed hack stuff, we could just implement a new type of static defense. A motion sensor that reacts only to running, but can't be shot out. That way you must fast crouch past sections of the map, and thus be slowed down.
good idea.
thinking more about chaff being able to work through walls i'm not so sure any more. it worked out in pt with way more passive defenses and an insane radius, but is this really how far we want to go? there are also some traps you can't bypass without chaff working through walls but this can probably be fixed with a shorter spy trap range. another way to make mines more useful against rushes would be increasing the deadly radius to the trigger radius (allows placement not directly at edges) and/or lowering the pieppiep rate.
I think chaff should work through walls - if you're rushing and chaffing every single corner, you're going to run out of chaffs very fast, and if you're checking for mines first then you are doing recon which should be rewarded.
I too think that chaff should work through walls to a certain extent. Like give chaff a smaller radius but let them work through walls. Maybe if it disables a mine through a wall the mine isn't disabled for as long as it currently is. Maybe it should be disabled about 3-4 seconds, giving you just enough time to get through.
Great idea invisible. How about we just make defense systems that are about shoulder high? They are lasers and everything but they can't be disabled. It would be just like a long laser grid where the only way to get through is to fast crouch underneath it. That would slow people down also.
I've always liked that chaff worked through walls. Like it still isn't a giveaway with the little white particles floating around? And proxy friendly mercs suck if chaff doesn't work through walls.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 18, 2007, 11:08:22 PM
I don't see the real need to nerf chaff to not work through walls. If it doesn't work through walls then it may aswell not even have a quick use function because it's quicker to shoot whatever yoru disabling half the time. I doubt I'd even take chaff if that was the case, at least if it goes through walls chaff is useful for breaking the bottlenecks of a map.
It really boils down to your preference as to how you like the game to play. There is no doubt that there is more running around on the spy's end in CT. That is due to numerous factors, one of which is the fact that chaff works through walls. If you like this style of play, great. I personally hate that aspect of the current meta-game, and think that slow and careful play should be rewarded over spamming a quick-use item to get around common trap areas.
"Oh, you planted some traps in garden? Well I has chaff, lawlz. I quick throw chaff and keep running up and down in garden lawlz while my partner runs around the back of the map lawlz."
Then there's balance issues on maps like Hospital where 1-2 chaffs can take out an entire room. As a spy, you don't even have to be careful or actually FIND the mines. Just throw chaffs so that it covers the room and run around at will.
"oh look, a mine around the corner of that box in 117. Well i has chaff, lawlz, i run up to mine and quick throw chaff lawlz."
This literally shaves off about 5 seconds, which is huge considering that the motion sensor already alerted the merc to your presence.
And removing the ability of chaff to work through walls does not necessitate a radius buff. I think the chaff radius is perfectly fine.
Now if you think that losing the ability to work through walls would make you not take the item, then that is your perogative. I would still find chaff quite useful in multiple situations if they didn't work through walls. You would just have to be a little more careful to ensure that you have enough time to use it. Furthermore, the fact that it can function as a useful aggro tool and can disable doorway lasers nearly instantly would still make me compelled to bind it to a quick-use slot.
As far as map security: I think there has to be a happy medium between CT and PT maps. PT maps were fortresses that made stealth play virtually impossible. CT maps are devoid of passive security, but the result is that spies can just run around freely. Sure, you could play stealthy if you like, but why bother?
Perhaps it's me, but I typically envision mines as a way to counter kill aggro/careless players and slow down stealthy players. But lawlz I has chaff, so they do neither.
Gawain, I can count on one hand the number of traps or mines that would not able to be dismantled by chaff if it did not work through walls, and a lot of them are due to the crooked lasers experienced by clients. Besides, who suddenly made the rule that chaff
has to give you a free pass through everything no matter what? I would consider an unchaffable trap good placement. If you're looking at one, take another route or come have your partner help you disable the trap.
Looking at it another way: don't you think a gadget that allows you to bypass any and every single possible trap placement in the game in virtually no time at all, in addition to functioning as a great harassment tool because it disables many of the mercs abilities, is a bit overpowered?
Westfall, it's not about whether or not it's a giveaway. The way a lot of people are playing doesn't even involve trying to stay hidden. It involves throwing the chaff and using the spy's quicker speed to stay ahead of the merc.
In regards to the other suggestions in the thread: those are just complicated and convoluted suggestions to fix what is quite obvious and simple: take away the ability for chaffs to work through walls and make sure that maps have the proper amount of security. You won't need any special motion sensors that only magically detect someone going over X speed and behave differently by locking shit, and you won't have to make some conditional crap about chaff going through walls sometimes and othertimes not.
Can't think of a reason why chaff shouldn't go through walls? Hell, I can't think of a reason why it should. Good trap placement should necessitate good planning on how to get around them for the spies. That involves thinking about which route you're going to take in, how to get rid of the traps undetected, and also accomplish your objective. The only players in CT that I've seen do this truly effectively are seefoo and vantage. Everyone else just says "lawlz I has chaff and i runs around lots," then cries when they can't win without host advantage.
uff, Spekkio that was long one but I made it.
I agree that chaffs should not work through walls, cause it makes no sense and supports dumb aggro.
What I also see as a problem is that chaffs are visible through walls. There are situations when spy uses chaff the normal way but merc will see it anyway. This can destroy all the plan...
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AMThen there's balance issues on maps like Hospital where 1-2 chaffs can take out an entire room. As a spy, you don't even have to be careful or actually FIND the mines. Just throw chaffs so that it covers the room and run around at will.
The maps should be balanced around the gadgets, not the other way around
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AM
"oh look, a mine around the corner of that box in 117. Well i has chaff, lawlz, i run up to mine and quick throw chaff lawlz."
If someone did enough recon to see that there was indeed a mine there, they should be allowed to disable it, no?
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AM
This literally shaves off about 5 seconds, which is huge considering that the motion sensor already alerted the merc to your presence.
Well, 5 seconds isn't OP considering you give away a gadget slot for it.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AMPerhaps it's me, but I typically envision mines as a way to counter kill aggro/careless players and slow down stealthy players. But lawlz I has chaff, so they do neither.
My point remains: If you do enough recon to spot the mine, you should be able to disable it. If you just spam chaff everywhere, you'll run out soon enough.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AM
Looking at it another way: don't you think a gadget that allows you to bypass any and every single possible trap placement in the game in virtually no time at all, in addition to functioning as a great harassment tool because it disables many of the mercs abilities, is a bit overpowered?
No, since you have a very limited amount.
Spekkio, you just listed why it's a great gadget, not overpowered. You only have 5 of these grenades. Chaff is hardly very affective against an actual merc. Just a temporary system malfunction, all they have to do is move out of it.
chaff dust not going through walls is actually a stealth boost.
by increasing the number of simultaniously placable spy traps to 5 and increasing the number of passive defenses on the map, chaff would still stay useful. maybe slightely increasing the time of the chaff emp effect on the merc and increasing the radius would be needed with this change.
in general i'd say improve the mercs' ability to slow down rushes and increase the ability of the spies to play stealth.
I got what you're saying Spekkio. I love that chaff kills lasers in doorways instantly. I can tell you this though. Few minutes left in a match and all u have to hack is 1 more obj. out of like 3 possible. YOU KNOW proxies will be around it. If you throw chaff near a proxy, it will go off b/c for some reason you're loud when you drop it. It would be practically impossible to get the hack because u can't really take your time with it in this situation. This is the only reason chaff has really saved me through walls....proxy whoring. I think it works well in CT and is balanced w/ only 5, and still going through walls.
You are right in saying it negates the idea of stealth. I could just run through a map with thermal on and see where the mines are and chaff them, though that would still be retarded.
There are other examples, like in clubhouse, where near the garden hack you can put a spy trap that ges through a beam. You can't jump over it in the doorway, so good trap. I know where it goes, so I run up to it on the other side of the wall outside and chaff it to disable it. If chaff can't work through walls, then I'm sure lasers can't/won't go through walls.
I can deal with chaff not going through walls. I just think it works well, given how unrealistic it is. Or is it? No clue if it works throughout multiple environments. I assume only a certain radius, but it does bug electronics, so why not? I wouldn't mind if they still had it through walls or didn't have it through walls. Just saying I kind of like it given what its helped me accomplish in game.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 09:33:20 AM
Gawain, I can count on one hand the number of traps or mines that would not able to be dismantled by chaff if it did not work through walls, and a lot of them are due to the crooked lasers experienced by clients. Besides, who suddenly made the rule that chaff has to give you a free pass through everything no matter what? I would consider an unchaffable trap good placement. If you're looking at one, take another route or come have your partner help you disable the trap.
Looking at it another way: don't you think a gadget that allows you to bypass any and every single possible trap placement in the game in virtually no time at all, in addition to functioning as a great harassment tool because it disables many of the mercs abilities, is a bit overpowered?
Honestly I don't think so. Defenses should serve to slow down a stealthy spy, not stop him completely dead. Any merc placeable trap should be able to be bypassed with chaff. Perhaps not with quick throw chaff, but with some form of chaff nonetheless.
Personally, what I'd do for chaff is have chaff disrupt laser devices, but not proxies. So a presence detector or proxy mine would not be disabled by chaff at all. This means that spies still have to slow down to take out proxies and can't rely on chaff as a be-all end-all to defense bypassing, but it also means that all defenses are inherently bypassable. Then you don't even care that it works throughwalls.
Having unbeatable trap placements is a bit cheesy in my opinion.
I guess we just agree to disagree Spekkio. I don't have EAX so I can't hear mines I'm about to run into, so as a precaution I throw a chaff at the places I expect there to be proxies. This comes from experience and costs me a gadget slot. I don't see the big deal, it makes no sense for chaff to disable proxies if you have to be in its trigger radius before you can chaff it, that's useless. Shooting a chaff would be fine except they take too long to detonate and if you're on the run you'll be dead either by the merc or the mines.
QuotePersonally, what I'd do for chaff is have chaff disrupt laser devices, but not proxies. So a presence detector or proxy mine would not be disabled by chaff at all. This means that spies still have to slow down to take out proxies and can't rely on chaff as a be-all end-all to defense bypassing, but it also means that all defenses are inherently bypassable. Then you don't even care that it works throughwalls.
I have just as big of an issue in regards to spy traps as well, which are largely useless in part due to this mechanism.
@Sith: Then your problem is that you can't hear mines, not that chaff has to work through walls. When you could hear mines in PT, did you still think this was the same?
@Westfall: Yes, there will be many mines around the last objective. But that is why, in a well-balanced map, there are always more objectives than mercs at the end of the game. You don't
need chaff to instantly disable 3 proxies by going through any and all walls to be able to get around that.
The trap you mention in club is an example of a bugged trap that wouldn't exist in PS. You could also adjust the laser distance to match PTs range, thus eliminating that problem entirely.
Cyntrox:
I'm not saying that someone shouldn't be able to disable traps/mines. I'm saying that to be able to do it instantly, no matter how well the item is placed, is overpowered.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 19, 2007, 08:07:05 PM
@Sith: Then your problem is that you can't hear mines, not that chaff has to work through walls. When you could hear mines in PT, did you still think this was the same?
I could hear mines in PT but I couldn't do anything about them because chaff didn't affect proxies. Chaff disabling them through walls helps stop this. It's not like you can run around a corner throw down 5 chaffs and leave 6 mines disabled laughing at the mercs. There's a limit on how fast you can quick use them so if your proxies are spaced out you'll only disable one of them unless you stop and wait for the grace period.
Edit: Except for the abundance of silent mines that is...
i fully agree with spekkio.
when you find a spy you should at least get a chance to chase him into mines. one of the things scda did better than ct is the fact that it's way harder to escape once detected than just ss the merc, run like a retard and drop a chaff right before every suspicious corner. if we really want to improve the gameplay, patroulling should be rewarded and not punished. there are some ways to achieve this:
-quick-drop chaff not working through walls
-more objectives and less camping spots on a map
-more possibilities to surprise the spies
-changing ss timers (3-4s not being able to shoot is too long; if you want to get away more easily use flash/smoke)
there's no real need to boost stealth besides better map design, further specialication of vision modes, implementing sound the right way and boosting camo a little bit.
How about you make it so chaff can only go through certain types of walls. Like it would go through wood easily, but if it were a concrete or metal wall then it wouldn't go through or it wouldn't be so effective. Then the map designers can place these walls so that it would be balanced in places where you allow chaff through walls.
Quote from: Gawain on December 19, 2007, 08:33:10 PM
if we really want to improve the gameplay, patroulling should be rewarded and not punished. there are some ways to achieve this:
Punished...right.
-quick-drop chaff not working through walls
-more objectives and less camping spots on a map
-more possibilities to surprise the spies
-changing ss timers (3-4s not being able to shoot is too long; if you want to get away more easily use flash/smoke)
there's no real need to boost stealth besides better map design, further specialication of vision modes, implementing sound the right way and boosting camo a little bit.
Like mercs dont already win the majority of their matches we're going to make it easier? Spies are already an uphill battle. I'm not saying make it easier but I definatly don't think you should be making it much harder either.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 19, 2007, 09:02:52 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 19, 2007, 08:33:10 PM
if we really want to improve the gameplay, patroulling should be rewarded and not punished. there are some ways to achieve this:
Punished...right.
-quick-drop chaff not working through walls
-more objectives and less camping spots on a map
-more possibilities to surprise the spies
-changing ss timers (3-4s not being able to shoot is too long; if you want to get away more easily use flash/smoke)
there's no real need to boost stealth besides better map design, further specialication of vision modes, implementing sound the right way and boosting camo a little bit.
Like mercs dont already win the majority of their matches we're going to make it easier? Spies are already an uphill battle. I'm not saying make it easier but I definatly don't think you should be making it much harder either.
QFT/E....in some instances we as a community still don't take balance into effect. Boosting camo is a horrible idea. It just doesn't need the EAX noise to accompany it. No need to "boost" it. Better map design, and vision adjustment is only part of what needs to be fixed on spy side if this game is going to balance. I hope that if chaff going through walls gets removed, something to unbalance the merc has to happen also.
i can see some1 using camo down on the other side of the yard from the living room balcony, and you tell me that it needs no other boost than fixing sound??
Quotepunished right
i think you don't get my point. in ct it's too strong to camp at bottlenecks and close to the objectives than to go on patrol. however this wouldn't be the case on a map like factory without camnet (!) because of the bigger amount of objectives. all i'm suggesting is making patroulling necessary/more effective and camping less effective.
It already is, if you camp at the start of the game and don't patroll you better play perfect because if either of you screw up the game is over.(Unless you're playing with Mr.Mic *wink*) You can camp the first floor in club house but you've given the spies at least 2 free objectives out of 4. (Assuming the mercs are sniping garden by glass) Which means the spies will have alot more time and lives to crack the camp the mercs have setup. Camping in CT is a workable strategy but very risky. You're much more likely to win by patrolling, killing spies before they get to the objectives and chasing them away from objectives.
patroulling within a certain radious around the objectives > camping at the objectives of course. you stand no chance against hack-n-run garden hacking if you don't cover aggressively with the help of spytraps.
one of the strongest tactics on club is to cover both floors (with emphasis on garden) at the beginning but as soon as one objective got hacked you both camp on the other floor and maybe still cover the other garden a bit to gain time.
i don't consider club to be a very good map just because it's quite balanced; the (repetitive) gameplay on club sucks.
in my experience, going into hall (orph) = loosing bomb objective to rushers if they don't run into mines (<=>chaff) or the other merc is covering the area they are heading to.
Quote from: Gawain on December 19, 2007, 11:29:33 PM
patroulling within a certain radious around the objectives > camping at the objectives of course.
Okay, sorry I've lost what the point you're making is. You said in CT camping objectives and bottlenecks is a big problem. I said if you do that you'll probably lose unless you play perfectly and you're agreeing with me? ???
I had this same kind of discussion with tinweasele way back when CT was like 3-6 months old. Considering that he and lo won 95% of their games on both sides, and he was the strategist behind the team, I think he understood the game quite well. Anyway, I bring this up because he said something along the following lines:
SCCT is dumb. You just run around everywhere and keep ahead of the merc. There is no stealth, and there is hardly any strategy. Maps are devoid of anything stopping the spies from doing whatever they want. The problem is that 99% of the people in this community blow at the game, and there are 100 different bugs that fuck you over, so they think that the spies can't win.
This is why he ultimately quit the game early on after its inception. At the time we had the discussion, I disagreed with him. However, after playing the game for over two years, I think he had a point. You can play stealthy if you want to (except against some people with better than normal EAX *cough* led *cough hack*), but if you're looking for the easiest way to win, stealth is not the ticket.
People consider maps like Club House and Orphanage balanced. I think that they are heavily in favor of a spy team that know how to use its speed and stay ahead of the mercs. Run around, bind chaff to quick use, and just hope you don't catch too many instas.
What are the two things that allow such an inane yet effective strategy?
-Lack of passive security to lock stuff up.
-Chaff works through walls, so you can't do a darn thing to slow the spies down.
Sith, I'm not suggesting that chaff stops effecting proxies altogether, nor do I remotely agree with all of Gawain's suggestions. I simply think that chaff should not give you a free pass to roam the map as if there were no traps or mines at all, and, more importantly, the runaround mechanic that ensues from such an ability is utterly retarded.
But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 20, 2007, 12:03:27 AM
except against some people with better than normal EAX *cough* led *cough hack* Host advantage*cough*)
Spekkio is right that the runaround strategy is particularly effective on a lot of maps. Especially if you start off by doing it, and thus get to start your run before the mercs have fully set up their mines. And really who wouldn't start off with a rush if you're doing the runaround tactic?
Stopping it may not be quite as easy as nerfing chaff though. It definitely takes some map design adding some more static security, since for the most part if you're playing against a team using the runaround tactic, you won't have time to set up many mines because the rush is on right after the spies get out of spawn. This early pressure rush really makes it difficult for mercs to even lay down their mines and traps.
One thing with CT is that it's very easy to bypass static security for a spy that doesn't care about noise. I almost think that maybe we should remove the ability to roll through lasers, since that's definitely a big tool of the runaround strategy. You also probably need to take away the ability for chaff to disable proxies. Poisons don't really hinder the runaround much since it can just run to a health box, and while traps help, it still doesn't make your merc any faster.
So proxies are about your only chance of stopping a spy using runaround tactics.
Probably the best way to stop runaround is a couple of things:
-Chaff doesn't disable proxies.
-Mercs get a 10 second "set-up" period to place mines and traps before the spies spawn.
Alternately, maps can make use of more static defenses. Similar to PT. Possibly with specific new special defenses designed to stop runaround tactics ,like an unshootable running spy sensor, combined with PT style area lockdowns.
The best way to tone the runaround tactics down would be to make the mapdesign somewhat like PT's Museum. If you trigger the alarm of a passive security, you can't proceed to the objectives because the doors are closed. (of course the PS-designer would be more creative than that.) btw. I'm not saying that the runaround should be removed, it should just be harder to pull off, since all you have to do now is .. well .. run around. o_O
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 20, 2007, 12:21:02 AM
But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.
Two spies x 4 lives = 40 chaffs. There can only be 6 mines and 6 traps about the map at any one time, and if you see all 12 being used then the mercs won't have backpack to replenish them.
That also doesn't include the various other methods you could use to set off mines unscathed, and the fact that your partner can instantly disable the effects of poisons and spy traps.
There was a game we played on Orphanage not too long ago where you guys got trapped on the first floor. Had you just said fuck it and ran through my spy traps, you would've realized that there was really nothing there to stop you other than the fear that you might glow on EMF for a minute.
@Invisible,
I fully agree, which is why I support a two pronged approach to it. Maps just need to have more security that locks stuff, not necessarily more security in general. It also has to be purposeful -- putting two lasers in front of an objective or a camera right near it that gives the mercs a whole 1 second warning before a spy starts hacking is pointless. But in addition to that, the traps that the mercs place about the map should at least be able to slow a spy down if they come from the expected angle. I think a map like Factory plays much better than Orphanage or Club, simply because if you start running around like an idiot you're going to lock everything up.
@Test:
Host advantage has nothing to do with one's ability to find spies.
@Scworld:
Take that dumb MOTY advertisement off the site. It clogs up like 25% of my screen.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 20, 2007, 12:45:06 AM
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 20, 2007, 12:21:02 AM
But you only have 5 chaffs? That's 5 doorways, corners or whatever. You can't tell me just 5 chaffs is an unstoppable linford christie hacking machine? Chaff gives a spy 5 fire and forget about mines, laser trip wires cards. Speed is their best strength, I dont see whats wrong with having that speed advantage over the mercs. A good merc team are insane and chaffing a terminal through a wall as a precaution lets you get as much time as possible off of it before the merc comes back. Yes, CT has a severe lack of passive security since you can roll through lasers anyways and cameras are right ontop of the terminal. That's surely the maps and not chaff that's to blame though.
Two spies = 10 chaffs, and there can only be 6 mines and 6 traps around the map at any one time.
That also doesn't include the various other methods you could use to set off mines unscathed, and the fact that your partner can instantly disable the effects of poisons and spy traps.
There was a game we played on Orphanage not too long ago where you guys got trapped on the first floor. Had you just said fuck it and ran through my spy traps, you would've realized that there was really nothing there to stop you other than the fear that you might glow on EMF for a minute.
That still leaves 1/2 mines or traps assuming he knows exactly where all of them are(which I doubt). It's not like chaff is stealthy either, you can probably hear and see it a mile away. Mercs can suicide for more equipment when the time is right so you can replenish them.
Edit: 40 chaffs OVER 4 lives of both spies? He can't use 40 chaffs one after another unless he dies and even than that's 20 unless his partner gives him the other 20 after dying 4 times too. So it's 10 chaffs vs 6 mines and 6 traps.
But you didn't read: chaff is not the only method that you can use to disable proxy mines. You can run around corners, and hell, you can just run in front of them at times because they're so damned sensitive. Lasers are so easy to bypass it's not even funny, and your partner can heal poisons (or you can run to a healthbox, which can be reached in plenty of time on almost every map in the game).
You could suicide for more, but the spies will win that war of attrition. Would you suicide down to your last life in order to get more equipment? I certainly wouldn't.
That has nothing to do with chaff, that's a proxy issue and at worst a map issue. Running around corners into it will usually give you damage even if it doesn't kill you. If you can trip it without damage then the mine was just ineffective because the spy came at it from the wrong angle.
Be honest Spekkio, how many games have you suicided twice in the same game as a merc for more equipment? I can't even remember doing it once.
But you're missing the point:
If the spy can easily see a mine to shoot it out or set it off, you didn't place it well. But a spy can circumvent good placement instantaneously by using chaff. So unless you somehow magically place all 12 of your defenses in a manner that the spy always approaches them from an angle where they have to use chaff to bypass it, you'll have more than enough to roam the map freely.
If chaff didn't work through walls, the spy would STILL be able to circumvent good placement. It'd just take a little longer.
Freely until he runs out of chaffs while making alot of noise and a trail of chaff. I don't see the problem, mines aren't supposed to be a guarenteed dead end of death.
QuoteBe honest Spekkio, how many games have you suicided twice in the same game as a merc for more equipment? I can't even remember doing it once.
Never, for multiple reasons:
1. I would never, ever suicide down to my last life against a competent team. That's stupid.
2. One of two scenarios occur by the time I'm out of equipment:
A) The spy team sucks and is almost dead anyway
B) The spy team is good and I just don't have the goddamn time to do it because I'm too busy chasing them around or worried that they'll pounce when I'm dead.
Either way, that reduces the amount of total mines and traps that the mercs will effectively have vs. the amount of chaffs the spies will have.
EDIT: The noise doesn't matter. The spy is using his speed to keep ahead of you. In other words, he's playing aggro. He's not concerned about noise. This is also why spy traps don't really make a difference in this scenario. You could ignore them completely and just use the chaff for things that can kill you.
Right but that's what you're there for. Mines aren't gonna do all the work against a good spy, and if he's using it all on running upto mines he's going to run out very quickly in which case you've probably still got a backpack(hell you could of brought 2 backpacks) and the spy is fresh out of chaff. If he dies, yes he has more but like I said, if you can't kill him either he's doing somethign right.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
Right but that's what you're there for. Mines aren't gonna do all the work against a good spy, and if he's using it all on running upto mines he's going to run out very quickly in which case you've probably still got a backpack(hell you could of brought 2 backpacks) and the spy is fresh out of chaff. If he dies, yes he has more but like I said, if you can't kill him either he's doing somethign right.
Problem is that its' a speed rush. You honestly don't have time to refill at your partner's backpack and calmly place mines about the level. The spies are always running around doing something, and you're chasing them. You don't often have time to drop down complex mine placements or anything. So while it sounds nice in theory, you don't really have that kind of time.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 20, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
Right but that's what you're there for. Mines aren't gonna do all the work against a good spy, and if he's using it all on running upto mines he's going to run out very quickly in which case you've probably still got a backpack(hell you could of brought 2 backpacks) and the spy is fresh out of chaff. If he dies, yes he has more but like I said, if you can't kill him either he's doing somethign right.
I agree that mines aren't supposed to do all the work, but chaff shows its true potential when a merc is chasing the spy, not when the spy is currently undetected and has the time to disable stuff.
To use a realtime example: you're on club house sitting outside one of the garden hacks. You see a laser going across, and the HB sensor shows that the merc is in the hallway or near the back rooms. Whether you have to toss the nade to disable that laser or quick-throw makes little difference in this scenario.
Now take that merc and put him in the elevator, or in a situation where he's in garden and can see you. Since chaff works through walls, the spies always have the ability to go between the levels faster than the mercs,
regardless of whether or not the merc has taken the time to fortify the area with traps. Chaff working through walls doesn't just allow you to bypass them safely, it effectively makes the mines or traps not even there.
In theory, a merc chasing a spy into a mine should get a kill, yes? He planned out his trap placement in such a way that should catch a spy trying to escape, rather than a spy trying to enter. Thing is, lawlz, I has chaff and I can actually hear mines, so your mine fails and I run away like it's not even there.
Problem is that its' a speed rush. You honestly don't have time to refill at your partner's backpack and calmly place mines about the level. The spies are always running around doing something, and you're chasing them. You don't often have time to drop down complex mine placements or anything. So while it sounds nice in theory, you don't really have that kind of time.
[/quote]
I agree with this notion, considering imo .. thats the con side to backpack.. if you take the time to refill ones gadgets while a spy is stealthing and you dont know they are in the back some where near a objective , it can be a game coster =/,
its better to stick to the oldschool gadgets, spytrap or tazer =)!.
@ spekkio and Sithduke i totally disagree about chaff going threw walls, if you wanna be realistic ( which i am indeed a realist ) clubhouse is a bad example
how the hell can particles go through a concrete wall =/.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 20, 2007, 03:21:49 AM
@ spekkio and Sithduke i totally disagree about chaff going threw walls, if you wanna be realistic ( which i am indeed a realist ) clubhouse is a bad example
how the hell can particles go through a concrete wall =/.
If enought mass up on one side off the wall the magnetic field will be strong enought to damage anything directly on the other side
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 20, 2007, 03:21:49 AMhow the hell can particles go through a concrete wall =/.
How the hell can aluminium particles float in the air? How can they expand like that then stop short? And how the hell can floating aluminium particles disable a proxy mine?
Because it's a game ;D
Quote from: frvge on December 20, 2007, 02:20:35 PM
Because it's a game ;D
Yeah, right. aND MAYbe yoU SAY THAT SAM FISHER DOESNT EXIST HUH ?
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 20, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 20, 2007, 03:21:49 AMhow the hell can particles go through a concrete wall =/.
How the hell can aluminium particles float in the air? How can they expand like that then stop short? And how the hell can floating aluminium particles disable a proxy mine?
You see, I could explain it but its very difficult.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 20, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 20, 2007, 03:21:49 AMhow the hell can particles go through a concrete wall =/.
(1)How the hell can aluminium particles float in the air? (2)How can they expand like that then stop short? (3)And how the hell can floating aluminium particles disable a proxy mine?
1: Small , magnetic, staticly charged, particles... they can stay in the air long enough
2: Do I have to draw a picture... chaff= small bomb with magnetic particle in it... explode = particuls go flying.... no more energie due to air friction they stop
3: Moving magnetic particles are a variation in the magnetic field this variation create in a conductor a electric courant than can be opposed or in the same direction as the conrant in a "mine" so as long as the particule are mouving they will distrup the elctrical balance in any device.... I'm not sure that it realy works but the theorie does
Except that they're not magnetic or electrically charged :P
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 20, 2007, 03:27:12 PM
Except that they're not magnetic or electrically charged :P
Well just read the description for ur self...
First they aren't aluminum for sure since they have to be magnetic. They are charge since they are conductor moving in a magnetic field and colliding in mid-air
Secondly... if you read the description (again) the chaff also shoots a EMP... I hope I don't have to tell why electric device wont work..
Now the right question would be how the mine can restart running after a Emp and where did theyh find the technologie to miniaturize a Emp device to this magnitude
In that case, the description is not what chaff really is like. I really didn't think you were serious... I don't have the description at hand, but
Quote1: Small , magnetic, staticly charged, particles... they can stay in the air long enough
Being magnetic would only help if they were attracted to something above them - which they are not in all cases.
Quote2: Do I have to draw a picture... chaff= small bomb with magnetic particle in it... explode = particuls go flying.... no more energie due to air friction they stop
Which could have been true if they deaccelerated slowly, but they don't.
Quote3: Moving magnetic particles are a variation in the magnetic field this variation create in a conductor a electric courant than can be opposed or in the same direction as the conrant in a "mine" so as long as the particule are mouving they will distrup the elctrical balance in any device.... I'm not sure that it realy works but the theorie does
If the electrical currents in the mine was overloaded, it's more likely to explode than shut down - although none of us knows how future mines are designed. But the fact that the light goes out means that there is no electrical current in the circuit, or it is broken.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 20, 2007, 03:46:41 PM
In that case, the description is not what chaff really is like. I really didn't think you were serious... I don't have the description at hand, but
Quote1: Small , magnetic, staticly charged, particles... they can stay in the air long enough
Being magnetic would only help if they were attracted to something above them - which they are not in all cases.
Quote2: Do I have to draw a picture... chaff= small bomb with magnetic particle in it... explode = particuls go flying.... no more energie due to air friction they stop
Which could have been true if they deaccelerated slowly, but they don't.
Quote3: Moving magnetic particles are a variation in the magnetic field this variation create in a conductor a electric courant than can be opposed or in the same direction as the conrant in a "mine" so as long as the particule are mouving they will distrup the elctrical balance in any device.... I'm not sure that it realy works but the theorie does
If the electrical currents in the mine was overloaded, it's more likely to explode than shut down - although none of us knows how future mines are designed. But the fact that the light goes out means that there is no electrical current in the circuit, or it is broken.
there isn't only attration with magnetic stuff there also repulsion + any electical wire(mostly found in the ceilling) will create a magnetic field
Why should they deaccelerated slowly small particles have a small masse so the small force on them make huge difference. They would deaccelerated very fast due to air friction (try throwing confetti).
A Emp will destroy any circuit not protected... the only explaintion for the mine to come back online would be that there one part protected againt' EMP and the other not. The one who isn't protected have many backup to switch to is any is damage...
Quote
there isn't only attration with magnetic stuff there also repulsion + any electical wire(mostly found in the ceilling) will create a magnetic field
True, but nowhere near a magnetic field powerful enough to actually affect the particles noticeably.
QuoteWhy should they deaccelerated slowly small particles have a small masse so the small force on them make huge difference. They would deaccelerated very fast due to air friction (try throwing confetti).
But then they wouldn't be able to get as far away from where you drop the grenade as they do.
QuoteA Emp will destroy any circuit not protected... the only explaintion for the mine to come back online would be that there one part protected againt' EMP and the other not. The one who isn't protected have many backup to switch to is any is damage...
It doesn't matter if the circuit is destroyed when the mine is blown up >.<
Most likely, there is a detonator that is triggered electronically. If the wires are overloaded with electricity ("fried"), then the detonator will explode and detonate the primary explosive.
By the way, this argument is utterly pointless and off-topic.
can element jump in here? afaik he's a physicist.
once again it's not about realism, it's about gameplay and balance.
Quote from: Gawain on December 20, 2007, 05:35:22 PM
once again it's not about realism, it's about gameplay and balance.
Yeah, I couldn't give a shit how chaff works. We're playing a game where spies have a device that turns them invisible and mercs have smart laser beams that differentiate between friend and foe.
Seriously, give the realism arguments a rest.
Yeah, but we should have some realism to a certain extent I guess. BUT if it gets in the way of balance then forget about it.
What about making chaff go through only certain kinds of walls? That way map designers can balance the map by deciding where chaff can go through walls. A chaff would go through a thin wall, and maybe not through a metal wall or thick wall.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 20, 2007, 05:41:46 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 20, 2007, 05:35:22 PM
once again it's not about realism, it's about gameplay and balance.
Yeah, I couldn't give a shit how chaff works. We're playing a game where spies have a device that turns them invisible and mercs have smart laser beams that differentiate between friend and foe.
Seriously, give the realism arguments a rest.
Realism only adds to the gameplay and balance.
speaking about realism, i think that bullets should be able to penetrate wood etc like in cod4
Yeah, giving a HS through stuff would be hella fun ;)
Might be possible, but it's maybe a lot of work. You might need to add destructable environments = time.
It's not destructible environments. It's really just allowing bullets to go through something and making them come out weaker on the other side. The environment isn't affected. What would this do to the balance though? I mean, if the spy gets around the corner and he is weak you could just spray bullets and maybe come out with a kill. It may become pretty hard for spies to escape. But, if these walls are implemented in the RIGHT places then yeah, that'd be awesome.
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 21, 2007, 09:04:32 AM
Realism only adds to the gameplay and balance.
If we were playing realistically spies would have lethal weapons and all the places would be well lit. I mean, come on, this place can afford mercs with cutting edge high-tech gear, but they can't afford a few extra light bulbs. Oh, and spies would be slowed down and die after being shot once.
Also hacking a computer would take a hell of a lot longer than 8 seconds.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 21, 2007, 07:08:25 PM
Also hacking a computer would take a hell of a lot longer than 8 seconds.
LMAO, yeah, duh man, it takes 10 seconds or 12 seconds. :D
In RL it would take about 15 minutes... at least afaik.
Hacking takes weeks or months of preparation and social engineering skills. That is, for high-security servers.
Right, but in CT they're hacking fuckin laptops...
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 21, 2007, 08:05:26 PM
Right, but in CT they're hacking fuckin laptops...
They can still be high-security servers...
It's pointless to discuss how long it'd take to hack, it depends on way too many factors.
No. It's pointless to talk about it because this isn't for realism.
Talking about equip, i would like to say that it will be a good idea to make refill boxes (Like in SCDA)
Quote from: Gh0sT on May 21, 2008, 12:54:55 PM
Talking about equip, i would like to say that it will be a good idea to make refill boxes (Like in SCDA)
kurbutti and me are discussing some new eq system atm, you can expect a new thread about that in a few days...
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on December 21, 2007, 08:05:26 PM
Right, but in CT they're hacking fuckin laptops...
NO THERE HACKING A LAPTOP WITH WINDOWS FIREWALL = IMPOSSIBLE
GOD NOOB KTHXBAI
Quote from: Rambo on May 21, 2008, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: Gh0sT on May 21, 2008, 12:54:55 PM
Talking about equip, i would like to say that it will be a good idea to make refill boxes (Like in SCDA)
kurbutti and me are discussing some new eq system atm, you can expect a new thread about that in a few days...
Ok, thanks. Anyway, can you say what gadgets are planned to be in PS?
-cams
-snares
-flash
-smoke
-shaff
-bullets
-sensor
-camo
-nades
-mines
-mask
-camnet
-spytraps
-tazer
-flares (?)
AFAIK
possibly also the phosperous (sp?) grenades.
However, only the gadgets shown on ModDB can be considered 'final'.
Why between single quotes? If there are problems with the programming, we can always take it out.
Quote from: frvge on May 21, 2008, 03:47:29 PM
possibly also the phosperous (sp?) grenades.
However, only the gadgets shown on ModDB can be considered 'final'.
Why between single quotes? If there are problems with the programming, we can always take it out.
Hey, what about the spy rappel?
NO!
yeah, its not very good idea...
There's is no real need for rappel for spies, sincethey can jump down from high heights without losing a lot of health, while I'm still very certain it will come in handy for mercs to quickly rappel down to say, the lowerdock in Lakehouse.
I've always wondered what the merc rappel could bring if implemented nicely in PS. I'm still not sure but it may bring balance issues, but if those are minor it could make for a good gadget.
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 22, 2008, 05:05:14 PM
I've always wondered what the merc rappel could bring if implemented nicely in PS. I'm still not sure but it may bring balance issues, but if those are minor it could make for a good gadget.
well the only thing with that is, doubleagent being a prime example.. soo easy for the spy to kill the merc..
wait for the merc to land.. and snap crackle pop.
Repelling in DA was so stupid and unrealistic. I can see MAYBE giving the merc the ability to 'hop' over a rail and down to the floor below, but repelling... no... this isn't Rainbow Six.
Quote from: Zedblade on May 22, 2008, 10:18:33 PM
Repelling in DA was so stupid and unrealistic. I can see MAYBE giving the merc the ability to 'hop' over a rail and down to the floor below, but repelling... no... this isn't Rainbow Six.
I beg to differ, the only reason it sucked in DA is because the animation was to slow. Speed that up abit and bobs your uncle. The repel should be almost like a dive over the rail, and as he dives he hooks the repel on. Mercs have all this high tech gear and yet no rapel. Most Swat teams or w.e u wanna call them have rappels nowdays, or maybe i have been playing to much R6.
If not we could always just use a parachute? :D
bf style? oh c'mon...
Parachuting down a 2 meters drop FTW
Quote from: AgentX_003 on May 22, 2008, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 22, 2008, 05:05:14 PM
I've always wondered what the merc rappel could bring if implemented nicely in PS. I'm still not sure but it may bring balance issues, but if those are minor it could make for a good gadget.
well the only thing with that is, doubleagent being a prime example.. soo easy for the spy to kill the merc..
wait for the merc to land.. and snap crackle pop.
It would be cool to give the merc the ability to turn around while sliding down the rope. Maybe that rappel gadget could be like a 3 time use only, where the rope stays where the merc plants it. The merc gets 3 25 foot ropes that stay until the merc dies or possibly until the spy cuts it or releases it. This could lead to using ropes with strategy to make for quick descents in key places. But again, hopefully this wouldn't lead to balancing issues.
Quote from: Rambo on May 22, 2008, 10:55:54 PM
bf style? oh c'mon...
Was a joke u --setting a penis on fire and inhaling--er :D.
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 22, 2008, 11:34:30 PM
Quote from: AgentX_003 on May 22, 2008, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 22, 2008, 05:05:14 PM
I've always wondered what the merc rappel could bring if implemented nicely in PS. I'm still not sure but it may bring balance issues, but if those are minor it could make for a good gadget.
well the only thing with that is, doubleagent being a prime example.. soo easy for the spy to kill the merc..
wait for the merc to land.. and snap crackle pop.
Would be neat-o.
It would be cool to give the merc the ability to turn around while sliding down the rope. Maybe that rappel gadget could be like a 3 time use only, where the rope stays where the merc plants it. The merc gets 3 25 foot ropes that stay until the merc dies or possibly until the spy cuts it or releases it. This could lead to using ropes with strategy to make for quick descents in key places. But again, hopefully this wouldn't lead to balancing issues.
the guys wanting a rappel are probably the same ones that want 3 weapons...
Guys that make retarded assumptions are probably people like Rambo.
Get real.
As I said, I'd only like to see this if it would be at all possible to implement them in a useful and balanced way. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Rambo on May 23, 2008, 12:12:48 AM
the guys wanting a rappel are probably the same ones that want 3 weapons...
I only want 1 weapon.....but I do believe rappel for mercs isn't a bad idea. So yea...your assumption is shitty.
Rappel is not a bad idea....however, I say it should be limited to how many times it can be used. Making it a gadget would server no purpose b/c it would be pointless (worst gadget choice EVER). However, it was nice in DA....
...and Agent...if you got grabbed after rappelling down in DA...you're a noob. NOT once did that happen to me, and I rappelled a lot given the fast pace of DA.
But, if a rappel was to be implemented, I'd still like to be able to turn my body around to look around before I drop. Kind of like R6V, although I forget if you could control how he spins on the rope.
Like I said, 3 ropes that are 30 feet long would be a good thing imo. They can't be moved, but they can be cut down by spies. This actually would be better for a Project Stealth 2, it could change the gameplay a bit too much especially for a 1st version.
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
Quote from: Rambo on May 23, 2008, 12:12:48 AM
the guys wanting a rappel are probably the same ones that want 3 weapons...
I only want 1 weapon.....but I do believe rappel for mercs isn't a bad idea. So yea...your assumption is shitty.
Rappel is not a bad idea....however, I say it should be limited to how many times it can be used. Making it a gadget would server no purpose b/c it would be pointless (worst gadget choice EVER). However, it was nice in DA....
...and Agent...if you got grabbed after rappelling down in DA...you're a noob. NOT once did that happen to me, and I rappelled a lot given the fast pace of DA.
ive never , but i've done it to others.
rappeling down could be balanced if
-it doesn't fill a gadget slot but is a permanent eq
-it can't be spammed, eg one rope/merc that can be reused after getting it from the high point
-only usable in certain spots the map creators can determine
-speed must be significantly slower than jumping down over the railing as a spy
-no ability to shoot or stop while sliding down
I agree. I don't think it should be certain "spots", maybe certain areas like a segment of a rail. What about spies cutting them down? After that the rope is useless, that's why I thought 3 ropes per merc would be good, maybe 2.
I wouldn't go for the permanent rope idea. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble.
Make the rappeler a gadget, and have it work pretty much like it does in DA, possibly a bit slower.
At first glance, I thought rappeling may be a bad idea, but looking at the maps in CT and PT, there really aren't any that make rappeling super awesome, so I tend to rethink my earlier position. There are a few extra things you could do with a rappel, but that's why it should be a gadget. I really don't think the added benefit you gain would be worth sacrificing frags, gas mask, backpack or mines. And honestly, if any of you do think it is, then tell me which one you'd replace and why the rappeling hook is so valuable.
Really, I think it would turn out to be one of those gadgets that's useful, but not overpowered.
no1 would sacrifice a gadget slot for a rapple as long as there are 4 slots and the map design doesn't change drastically.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on May 25, 2008, 08:14:02 AM
I wouldn't go for the permanent rope idea. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble.
Make the rappeler a gadget, and have it work pretty much like it does in DA, possibly a bit slower.
At first glance, I thought rappeling may be a bad idea, but looking at the maps in CT and PT, there really aren't any that make rappeling super awesome, so I tend to rethink my earlier position. There are a few extra things you could do with a rappel, but that's why it should be a gadget. I really don't think the added benefit you gain would be worth sacrificing frags, gas mask, backpack or mines. And honestly, if any of you do think it is, then tell me which one you'd replace and why the rappeling hook is so valuable.
Really, I think it would turn out to be one of those gadgets that's useful, but not overpowered.
Ummm, Club House anyone? Rapelling down from the top of garden to the bottom garden objective to stop a hacking spy so you don't have to go across the room and fire a nade? Therefore, you really wouldn't need backpack because you wouldn't have to fire a lot of nades to stop hacking spies. That's just one part of one map though.
how about simply taking the elevator or sniping from upper garden?
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 26, 2008, 12:02:17 AM
Ummm, Club House anyone? Rapelling down from the top of garden to the bottom garden objective to stop a hacking spy so you don't have to go across the room and fire a nade? Therefore, you really wouldn't need backpack because you wouldn't have to fire a lot of nades to stop hacking spies. That's just one part of one map though.
It saves you a little time, but I mean, so what? It's not really overpowered for spending a gadget to do it.
Quote from: Rambo on May 26, 2008, 12:23:59 AM
how about simply taking the elevator or sniping from upper garden?
Elevator not readily available, don't have sniper, don't have nades, teammate dead, takes too much time to go from upper garden objective to sniping positin on the opposite side of the garden. There's too many variables. Though, you guys could be right. There isn't a whole lot of use for it if it is a gadget that has to replace another. This could be a gimme gadget, but I've never really been a fan of gimme gadgets.
Simply giving 1 example, although there probably aren't a lot more.
Actually, there won't be a way to snipe the objective from the Dock. Our map design doesnt differ much in actual changes in geometry, but the changes to the gameplay will be considerable.
Well, then I guess I have more of a case. :)
Only time will tell how useful this rappel for mercs can really be. When the devs reveal some details about the other maps, or when it goes into beta, we'll see if there are some good and useful spots for it. But I don't think that the devs should make their maps based on a rappel going in. Not that they were but I'm just saying lol
Quote from: frvge on May 26, 2008, 02:39:13 AM
Actually, there won't be a way to snipe the objective from the Dock. Our map design doesnt differ much in actual changes in geometry, but the changes to the gameplay will be considerable.
/pwnt Rambo.
Nah, he didn't pwn him. Rambo didn't know. Neither did I, or you, or most people here. This is how flame wars start. And as much as I'd love to have one right now (:D) I don't think it's a good time.
Is it just me, or are we all fantasising here? There is no way the development team are going to be able to manage something like a rappel with their resources. They arnt creating a game like Crysis ::)
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
So yea...your assumption is shitty.
This is kinda counter productive (regarding general forum policy, not just Westfall) and immature. Everyone says something idiotic at some time or other, so please be more reserved in your responses. This way 'flame-wars' dont get started :-\
i'm not stating that a rappel has no use, i'm stating that (with only 4 slots and a ct-like map layout) i'd never give up any other gadget for it. why do i have to repeat myself 10 times before any actually reads my posts instead of flame them?
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 12:43:48 PM
Is it just me, or are we all fantasising here? There is no way the development team are going to be able to manage something like a rappel with their resources. They arnt creating a game like Crysis ::)
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
So yea...your assumption is shitty.
This is kinda counter productive (regarding general forum policy, not just Westfall) and immature. Everyone says something idiotic at some time or other, so please be more reserved in your responses. This way 'flame-wars' dont get started :-\
The forum doesn't need any more moderators than it already has (as was told in the 'Join Us' section). The last thing I need to be told is something by some1 who JUST got here and doesn't know the background of all the members. Mind yourself and not that of others for it is not your responsibility.
This forum is also strictly for Project Stealth, so lets keep it related towards that yea?
Rappel is quite useful in very critical situations. Instead of having to run towards an elevator, rappel over the ledge that just happens to be in front of you. Heres a new question I pose: What if a spy is hanging from a ledge and the merc rappels right in front of him? Will the animations collide? Does the merc need to give a second before he can actually hook up the rappel giving the tie decision in the spy's favor?
No one's flaming you, except for Burning Death and that wasn't even a total assault on you haha :D
I read your posts and I agreed with most of them on this thread at least.
As for Westfall, that's a bit far in the future to consider those scenarios eh? But to give my two cents, I think that the merc would be grabbed before he can even rappel. A spy who knows what he's doing isn't going to wait for him to set up his rope, but instead he'll just grab him right off the bat. To answer your question with my opinion I think that if that does happen, which I don't think it will be all that common, they should both fall to the ground. The spy should be able to get up first because if the merc gets up first the spy is dead, and the merc and the spy basically tied that little moment if you know what I mean. And if the spy gets up first he can get away and it can all start over even stevens.
westfall addresses a good point here: there would come tons of new bugs/imbalances/etc next to much animation work with implementing just such a little new feature. so we should really be sure that it actually improves gameplay before thinking about implementing it.
The fact is, calling someones assumption shitty has absolutely no benefit towards ps, so just don't write it. You were just an example, Westfall. Although, from the little background i have on you, you dont seem to be a very nice person or very mature :-\.
The impression i got from Gk and others was that they don't read these pages very often and the reason i couldnt become a mod was because it was unfair as im too new. We dont want this site turning into sclamers, so don't oppose someone filling a de facto mod role, helping to keep the topics focused and amicable.
and you honestly think that this post of you has?
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 09:23:47 PM
The fact is, calling someones assumption shitty has absolutely no benefit towards ps, so just don't write it. This is not sclamers. You were just an example, Westfall. It doesnt take me to know your background to realise that you dont seem to be a very nice person though :-\.
I'm actually quite a delightful person. It takes some1's ignorance to consider assumptions as you posed. Why don't you look at the post prior and tell Rambo his post wasn't within the confines of the PS guidelines...oh wait, thats right....frvge is the moderator. Quit preachin and talk about PS.
@ Papa: I know it may be early in the development, but the idea came to me and I might as well type it now instead of forgetting it ;)
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 12:43:48 PM
Is it just me, or are we all fantasising here? There is no way the development team are going to be able to manage something like a rappel with their resources. They arnt creating a game like Crysis ::)
Yeah, I'm honestly not sure if it'd be possible to animate well or not.
Certainly a good reason not to include it though if it's too difficult to animate.
I do think some over here are getting a bit on my nerves. To list them: Gawain/Rambo and Papa Skull. Some others are close to it. There are no rules with regards to warnings, but because it's that arbitrary, I can warn whenever I like for any reason. It hasn't happened so far, and I hope I dont have to in the future. So for the two listed: please read the paragraph below very carefully.
A word of advice: if you think the other is acting like a fool, don't post your own version. You can PM me if you are 100% sure your version is better. Just don't let the thread get into a flamewar. And don't act like flamebait. I don't like to actually have rules here, so be a bit more wise with the amount of freedom you have. If this continues I don't mind narrowing that freedom down for just the two of you until you learn how to not be an ass in your behaviour with fellow forum-members and most importantly: with eachother.
Thank you.
frvge, did it ever occur to u that there are people like me who are more insulted/annoyed by pure ignorance than by being called names? but obviously i'm living in a soceity that is totally ok with stupidity and ignorance but cares about the choice of words as if it was something holy.
Quote from: Rambo on May 26, 2008, 10:39:45 PM
frvge, did it ever occur to u that there are people like me who are more insulted/annoyed by pure ignorance than by being called names? but obviously i'm living in a soceity that is totally ok with stupidity and ignorance but cares about the choice of words as if it was something holy.
Apparently you completely ignored his post and didn't read a thing he said. PM him if you feel the need.
I got it Frvge, it's useless to try anyways.
Removed 4 posts, because I think I made myself clear enough and continuing makes me unhappy. If someone doesn't get my previous post, you're free to contact me via PM.
Now on-topic please.
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 09:23:47 PM
The fact is, calling someones assumption shitty has absolutely no benefit towards ps, so just don't write it. You were just an example, Westfall. Although, from the little background i have on you, you dont seem to be a very nice person or very mature :-\.
The impression i got from Gk and others was that they don't read these pages very often and the reason i couldnt become a mod was because it was unfair as im too new. We dont want this site turning into sclamers, so don't oppose someone filling a de facto mod role, helping to keep the topics focused and amicable.
You could hardly string a sentence together on xfire. Where did this short novel come from?
Quote from: Westfall on May 26, 2008, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 12:43:48 PM
Is it just me, or are we all fantasising here? There is no way the development team are going to be able to manage something like a rappel with their resources. They arnt creating a game like Crysis ::)
Quote from: Westfall on May 23, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
So yea...your assumption is shitty.
This is kinda counter productive (regarding general forum policy, not just Westfall) and immature. Everyone says something idiotic at some time or other, so please be more reserved in your responses. This way 'flame-wars' dont get started :-\
The forum doesn't need any more moderators than it already has (as was told in the 'Join Us' section). The last thing I need to be told is something by some1 who JUST got here and doesn't know the background of all the members. Mind yourself and not that of others for it is not your responsibility.
This forum is also strictly for Project Stealth, so lets keep it related towards that yea?
Rappel is quite useful in very critical situations. Instead of having to run towards an elevator, rappel over the ledge that just happens to be in front of you. Heres a new question I pose: What if a spy is hanging from a ledge and the merc rappels right in front of him? Will the animations collide? Does the merc need to give a second before he can actually hook up the rappel giving the tie decision in the spy's favor?
He'll probably get ledge grabbed i guess, if not when the merc jumps over the rail he should boot the spy in his meathead, thus knocking him off.
Quote from: FR33M4N on May 28, 2008, 12:41:18 AM
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 09:23:47 PM
The fact is, calling someones assumption shitty has absolutely no benefit towards ps, so just don't write it. You were just an example, Westfall. Although, from the little background i have on you, you dont seem to be a very nice person or very mature :-\.
The impression i got from Gk and others was that they don't read these pages very often and the reason i couldnt become a mod was because it was unfair as im too new. We dont want this site turning into sclamers, so don't oppose someone filling a de facto mod role, helping to keep the topics focused and amicable.
You could hardly string a sentence together on xfire. Where did this short novel come from?
Im just not interested in talking to every person :-\
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 29, 2008, 12:15:49 AM
Quote from: FR33M4N on May 28, 2008, 12:41:18 AM
Quote from: .leelu12. on May 26, 2008, 09:23:47 PM
The fact is, calling someones assumption shitty has absolutely no benefit towards ps, so just don't write it. You were just an example, Westfall. Although, from the little background i have on you, you dont seem to be a very nice person or very mature :-\.
The impression i got from Gk and others was that they don't read these pages very often and the reason i couldnt become a mod was because it was unfair as im too new. We dont want this site turning into sclamers, so don't oppose someone filling a de facto mod role, helping to keep the topics focused and amicable.
You could hardly string a sentence together on xfire. Where did this short novel come from?
Im just not interested in talking to every person :-\
In your above post, your english is good. Now when i point out the change between what it was on xfire, and what it is in the above post, you pretend ur english sucks again. I'm sure most people know who you are already anyway.
The only way I know her as is .Leelu12.
Is she someone else?
Maybe I'm misunderstood.
Quote from: Papa Skull on May 30, 2008, 08:45:21 PM
Is she someone else?
she is rather a he, eg humblepie aka athelstan. but who knows for sure and who gives a flying crap?
Actually, no. She's not.
On-topic now.
This thread needs a lock. Everyone already shot down the op, quite brutally I might add, and needs no further discussion. Unless there was a useful off topic discussion going on in here, what's the point of keeping this thread going?
Quote from: frvge on May 30, 2008, 11:41:43 PM
Actually, no. She's not.
On-topic now.
Actually, yes. She is.:P. Woo i overpowered furge i own.
Just joking dont ban me please