months ago I played "Metal Gear Online". youÃ,´re able to hear footsteps in a radius of 10yd very well without any headphones.
how about replace heartbeatsensor by this radical solution? needless to say, in stealth mode you wonÃ,´t recognise any noise. this will advance the stealth aspect I guess.
at least there must be 3-5 noise grades (stealth mode, simple crouch walk, slow walk standing and so on).
Could you say something more ? You want to completely remove hbs and put some gadget instead of it or just make an ability ? You say that in stealth mode spy will be able to hear more of merc noises right ?
in stealth mode ull hear steps lots louder than while running and stomping around of course.
all in all i ment, that the movement of merc should be lots easier to track. in fact, stepsoundgrade, shld be increased pretty much. maybe it turns such strong, that you wonÃ,´t need hbs anyway. but, as i already said, only in stealth mode ur able to track mercÃ,´s movement exactly
the hbs is that strong that you almost can't surprise good spies. maybe a slight nerf to hbs (like lower scanning rate or 90% range) and a boost for merc walking noises would be good for the gameplay.
btw, if you detect a merc with hbs, your mate should see him on his radar, too.
The footsteps thing isn't going to work. For someone to figure out where the footsteps are coming from, they would need a good surround sound setup. Most people do not have that. HBS is perfectly fine the way it was in CT. It doesn't need to be removed or nurfed.
I agree.
HBS is a stealthy way to find a merc. IE: it replaces the need to shoot a merc with a spybullet. It doesn't make the bullet useless, it just gives the spy an ability to do the same thing it does, silently.
So why not create the same thing for sound. You could hack comms stealthfully. It'd work exactly like the HBS. It might sound useless, but the HBS was once considered useless, but is now commonly used.
Although hacking the comms were never that usefull, it was at somepoints helpful. Maybe having the abilty to do so undetected could raise the importance of stealth communication.
How to implement it in game wouldn't be that hard. It would be a gadget and you'd show up on EMF as usual. However, it'd be a suit activation and not like pulling out a weapon, this way you could move with it activate, but like camo it'd deplete. Upon activation you'd have to find the channel the mercs are on, probably a selection of 1-6. Then you're good to go. As a merc, you can change your frequency coms, in lobby or in game at an ammo box. When on merc changes the frequency, the team change is made, so communication such as "shit I was on the wrong channel" won't happen. It just gives the mercs the ability to keep the spies from constantly using thier hacks. Just a thought.
HBS needs no nerf. You should never be able to surprise a vigilant spy. Replacing HBS with footsteps is a bad idea for a few reasons -
1: HBS takes a gadget slot and that sort of detection radius should require you to give up a slot.
2: HBS requires you to have your gun drawn where footsteps are passive.
3: Ambient noise can easily cover footsteps and the spy should be able to detect an incoming merc if he is willing to give up a gadget slot for it.
4: It is invaluable when setting up an ambush where you can't see the merc coming and a spy bullet would give you away.
I do however think that the footsteps could use a little boost in volume (But this isn't CT so that will all be evaluated and tweaked in alpha). Mercs wear about 60lbs of gear along with combat boots which usually have a steel toe and a steel shank. The boots combined with armour, gun, grenades etc would make for some pretty heavy footsteps.
The only thing heartbeat sensor needs is your teammate can see the merc you've detected on his radar too. It needs no nerf.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 12, 2007, 08:36:20 PM
The only thing heartbeat sensor needs is your teammate can see the merc you've detected on his radar too.
Why is that? I strongly disagree.
hbs wont change....
and btw. CT already has footstep radius sounds.....which is one of the reasons i am out of the habit of taking HBS. Admittedly it is hard to pinpoint a merc with it, but you can at least judge where in the room he is.
good thing someone brought up the heart beat sensor topic, i really think hearbeat is overrated, due to the factors that if a merc catches you by suprise from behind, your done like dinner and that spybullets are the better alternative.. if they aren't soo loud.
Quote from: kronf on December 12, 2007, 10:52:40 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 12, 2007, 08:36:20 PM
The only thing heartbeat sensor needs is your teammate can see the merc you've detected on his radar too.
Why is that? I strongly disagree.
it makes sense as bullets let the merc appear on both radars and if a team sticks together one could use his hbs slot easier for other gadgets. it sucks that you have to tell your mate that the merc is in the next room when it could be solved that easy.
tell me one good reason why it shouldn't appear on both radars.
Bullets:
-Make loud noise
-Let the merc know that he's been tagged
-Can be removed by the merc's partner
-Are limited in number
-Are limited in time
The HB sensor has none of those disadvantages, so one of the tradeoffs is that you don't get to see the merc on both radars. Deal with it.
QuoteI do however think that the footsteps could use a little boost in volume (But this isn't CT so that will all be evaluated and tweaked in alpha). Mercs wear about 60lbs of gear along with combat boots which usually have a steel toe and a steel shank. The boots combined with armour, gun, grenades etc would make for some pretty heavy footsteps.
Then give slow mode back to mercs. Sneaking up on spies is great.
There has never been slowmode for Mercs AFAIK.
PT - mercs had as many speeds as the spies.
hmz, cant remember. I think I always used run.
What about a special run mode after which you need 2 sec to be able to fire your weapon? Bit like CoD and stuff.
Quote from: Gawain on December 13, 2007, 12:36:01 AM
Quote from: kronf on December 12, 2007, 10:52:40 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 12, 2007, 08:36:20 PM
The only thing heartbeat sensor needs is your teammate can see the merc you've detected on his radar too.
Why is that? I strongly disagree.
it makes sense as bullets let the merc appear on both radars and if a team sticks together one could use his hbs slot easier for other gadgets. it sucks that you have to tell your mate that the merc is in the next room when it could be solved that easy.
tell me one good reason why it shouldn't appear on both radars.
You are doing it backwards, YOU tell me one good reason why it should be like that. It makes as much sense to me as making one spy activating camo for both spies.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on December 13, 2007, 12:35:38 AM
good thing someone brought up the heart beat sensor topic, i really think hearbeat is overrated, due to the factors that if a merc catches you by suprise from behind, your done like dinner and that spybullets are the better alternative.. if they aren't soo loud.
I've already told you that HB sensor was stealthier in a way. Sure, bullets do a fine job. But alone in a different sector from mate...I'll take fuckin HB sensor to see what is near me with a good chance of not being heard by a merc. Spy Bullet tells the merc what room you are in (it is loud enough; exception of being across a map). Spekkio laid out a nice outline of why HB sensor is fine and necessary. I'm adding to it saying it is one of the stealthiest pieces of equipment in the game.
I'll tell you, get a team with bullets and HB sensor....golden.
some of the best players i know use HBS religiously
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 13, 2007, 01:33:51 AM
PT - mercs had as many speeds as the spies.
Nope, they only had two.
two speeds for the merc sound good to me with one normal speed making a louder noise than in ct and one stealth mode making less noise.
i don't think that showing mercs detected by hbs on both radars is that important and would make a big difference, i just think it would help random partners occasionally.
i don't think that hbs or bullets are op or up in any way, it's just that you don't have to rely on your senses/3d person view/instincts that much and the mercs cant go hunt the spies that well. the noise of the merc going in sniper mode is one important factor, too.
To be fair, I never used slow speed in PT, so it was kinda useless. It's just that if you're going to make the merc some loud clanking tank, I want to be able to sneak up on spies somehow.
There's nothing like catching a spy completely by surprise :D
Quote from: kronf on December 13, 2007, 05:47:00 AM
You are doing it backwards, YOU tell me one good reason why it should be like that. It makes as much sense to me as making one spy activating camo for both spies.
Having HBS work for both sides facilitates more recon and teamwork, and more tactics. There, that's a good reason.
Quote from: B1nArY_001 on December 13, 2007, 04:44:08 PM
There's nothing like catching a spy completely by surprise :D
well these moments are quite rare at high levels of play.
we should find ways to make patroulling more effective especially on mid skill in order to make playing the merc side more fun. one way to do so would be reducing the safe zones eg vents and maybe reducing the delay after ss in which the merc can't shoot but move. removing the ability of chaff to work through walls is one good change for this, too.
Quotewell these moments are quite rare at high levels of play.
Which is why there's nothing like it :).
u win ^^
So how bout my idea of a stealthy way to hack coms? It might prove useful, maybe even add the ability to easily locate proxy mines too as an added bonous. Again, it's a suit activation gadget not a weapon.
it's not that interesting to hack the mercs' comms, it's interesting to hack the spies' comms.
Quote from: Gawain on December 13, 2007, 05:45:51 PM
it's not that interesting to hack the mercs' comms, it's interesting to hack the spies' comms.
It's interesting to hack BOTH comms.
Quote from: Daybreak on December 13, 2007, 05:41:23 PM
So how bout my idea of a stealthy way to hack coms? It might prove useful, maybe even add the ability to easily locate proxy mines too as an added bonous. Again, it's a suit activation gadget not a weapon.
Apparently you never pressed the snipe button as spy. If you did, you'd know that they already have that ability through their binoculars :o.
I suppose you can tell how useful that feature is.
Quote from: kronf on December 12, 2007, 10:52:40 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 12, 2007, 08:36:20 PM
The only thing heartbeat sensor needs is your teammate can see the merc you've detected on his radar too.
Why is that? I strongly disagree.
Because that way only one of you on your team has to take it if you are a recon stealth kind of team where you both stay together. One person can take it, scan the area ahead, and both of you can see him on your radar for however long he holds the hbs detector on the merc.
HA! I press that button all the time when I'm trying to cam. Rather than caming someone. I go into binoculars, thus usually resulting in me dying or both me and my partner. It's happened while trying to protect you many times.
You raise a good point, but to be honest, it's not well done and isn't very practicle. You can't really move with it either. With the suit activation, you can and as I said, you could make a case of easily detecting mines with it too. But only for a certain length of time just like camo.
I'm jsut trying to think of another suit activation thing cause I think it'd be a good idea to have another suit device. Like a screw attack or double jump or the ability to roll up in a ball and drop bombs. (that's a joke incase anyone is slow).
Dude, lets spies do Prince of Persia acrobatics as a suit module.
The Crysis suit for Spies?
O, that would be sick! Imagine going into first person after a grab, or even a face to face neck grab *drools*
I was just kidding by the way but it would be cool.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 13, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
I suppose you can tell how useful that feature is.
aah good, old vertigo.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 13, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
Quote from: Daybreak on December 13, 2007, 05:41:23 PM
So how bout my idea of a stealthy way to hack coms? It might prove useful, maybe even add the ability to easily locate proxy mines too as an added bonous. Again, it's a suit activation gadget not a weapon.
Apparently you never pressed the snipe button as spy. If you did, you'd know that they already have that ability through their binoculars :o.
I suppose you can tell how useful that feature is.
qfe
the merc's hack ability with the sniper scope is also kinda redundant as i can't imagine a situation where i wouldn't take the opportunity to kill the spy instantly. hopefully it gets removed totally as it uncovers spies in the dark like the laser (laser and flashlight should be usable with sniping though).
the mechanics oof the ct sniper from what i remember was very mechanical and not totally fluid . it had fluidity i agree because ppl like mr . mic and macbryce could snap the pins to the spy in no time .
but the thing is you had very little awareness of anything besides the scope objective FOV . in my opinion the snipe button should take the usual time it would to put the weapon in the right place and for you to get a center on your sights . but adding an in-between , where you can let go of sniping for a second and look around , all the while with your gun obstructing some view , but giving a clearer picture of who and what's where . then if you havent waited until the sniper position reset you can zoom in again more quickly because fo the positioning of the rifle .
also strafing movements should make the weapon and scope sights sway a bit , been seeing alot of that in FPS games , the best ones actually like COD 4 and (not a game) insurgency mod .
COD4 has a lot that most FPS should learn from. It has really set the standard and I think that our merc and gameplay could benefit from what COD4 has shown.
Quote from: ray mysertio on December 14, 2007, 02:43:20 PM
the mechanics oof the ct sniper from what i remember was very mechanical and not totally fluid . it had fluidity i agree because ppl like mr . mic and macbryce could snap the pins to the spy in no time .
but the thing is you had very little awareness of anything besides the scope objective FOV . in my opinion the snipe button should take the usual time it would to put the weapon in the right place and for you to get a center on your sights . but adding an in-between , where you can let go of sniping for a second and look around , all the while with your gun obstructing some view , but giving a clearer picture of who and what's where . then if you havent waited until the sniper position reset you can zoom in again more quickly because fo the positioning of the rifle .
also strafing movements should make the weapon and scope sights sway a bit , been seeing alot of that in FPS games , the best ones actually like COD 4 and (not a game) insurgency mod .
Most of the time sniping is a half-a-second thing... adding some time for the "zooming" would realy weaken it... anyways I'm pretty sure that a highly trainned professional with his gun at the rdy would that more and a instant to get his scope up and centered
Yeah, remember Mr.Mic's videos?
sorta off topic but you all got discussing about binoculars, and i think the one use I've found for that particular device is scoping ahead for mines in thermal , when being far away.
Once again I have to be boring and say that HBS is perfect as it is. T obe honest, I don't think all these equipment threads are necesarry. The gadgets are good as they are.
Btw, HBS (and cams) is the gadget I NEVER take away from my set-up. So used to it, that I just can't play without it. It's an excellent gadget.
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 16, 2007, 11:59:13 PM
Most of the time sniping is a half-a-second thing... adding some time for the "zooming" would realy weaken it... anyways I'm pretty sure that a highly trainned professional with his gun at the rdy would that more and a instant to get his scope up and centered
Well, I think sniping could afford a little blow to it. I think it's slightly overpowered as it is now. It doesn't need anything major, but just like a little extra delay to go to snipe mode, or possibly some slight chaos added to the position of your crosshair when entering snipe mode.
I think the delay comes into effect with the swaggering around the merc is doing unless you have him hold his breath. There is a delay to center in on an object you are picking off. I don't think nipe needs any adjustment from CT style. DA style seemed too fast and just garbage all around. Hit box was shittar.
the sniper rifle is pretty balanced:
there's a little delay going into sniper mode
you can't use it when chaffed/ss on head
flashbangs kick you out of sniper mode
you have a way smaller fov when in s.m.
you can't move quickly in s.m.
you can't spam with the rifle
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 11:03:03 AM
flashbangs kick you out of sniper mode
you have a way smaller fov when in s.m.
you can't move quickly in s.m.
you can't spam with the rifle
The problem is that all these things are contingent on the time of the delay to switch. Since you can switch fast, these drawbacks are rather negligible.
There's a very short time gap between switching to sniper mode and then headshotting someone, so short that most people choose to use the sniper at medium or even short range instead of just shooting them on autofire.
Even if it means improving the rifle on autofire, I'd like to see sniping used for well, sniping. Not every combat you may run into.
COD4 sniping is totally balanced (although it is useless because of the way maps are designed). It's balanced because someone can't just walk sideways and have little drawbacks, it sways back and forth a lot. The recoil is perfect for the type of gun and everything. Seriously guys, go play COD4 if you haven't yet. Our merc could benefit a lot from its gameplay.
cod4 rulez.
but i have to disagree, sniping is useful.
what we could do for ps is adding a random sway that becomes very strong while moving body or mouse so that you actually have to hold breath or use auto/burst. with a smoother mouse implementation and maybe a slightely higher rof this could work out pretty well.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 21, 2007, 07:02:23 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 21, 2007, 11:03:03 AM
flashbangs kick you out of sniper mode
you have a way smaller fov when in s.m.
you can't move quickly in s.m.
you can't spam with the rifle
The problem is that all these things are contingent on the time of the delay to switch. Since you can switch fast, these drawbacks are rather negligible.
There's a very short time gap between switching to sniper mode and then headshotting someone, so short that most people choose to use the sniper at medium or even short range instead of just shooting them on autofire.
Even if it means improving the rifle on autofire, I'd like to see sniping used for well, sniping. Not every combat you may run into.
Yea. If we want to make sniping, a real sniping we should do something with this. Now its used to often at very short ranges.
Sniping is useless on COD4. I've got the golden Ak-47 and I'm close to getting the golden dragonuv. You get the golden guns by completing all challenges for the gun classes. I've got close to 3,000 headshots. I know what I'm talking about. It's a better choice to just walk around with an assault rifle or a sub. It's not that I'm not good at sniping it's just that most of the maps are designed for medium to close range combat and snipers are meant for long range. At close range they are so inaccurate, this is how they should be in PS.
Actual sniping (ie: using a sniper rifle) in CoD 4 can be useful on some maps, one some places (bloc, stairway for example), but on most maps it's useless because machine guns are accurate enough to blast you out of your sniper palladium in no time.
The only maps I think it is useful to use a sniper rifle on are Overgrown and Bloc. But even on those maps it might be a better choice to go with the m16 or the m14. Countdown is a terrible map, and even though you can use a sniper on it, it is STILL a better choice to camp somewhere in the middle or the the sides with an assault rifle. Most maps you can just run up the middle with a sub and mow them down if you are good enough.
Only change I'd like to see in regards to sniping is that it should not negate the effect of flashbangs.
What Spekkio means is that when you zoom in after you are flashed the flash effect does not persist while in sniping mode meaning that getting flashed does not do anything to your ability to snipe.
I want to see flash bangs have a greater effect when they flash someone using a rifle. Instead of just a momentary drop out of scope I want to see a decent amount of flash effect on the screen because it seems like the way it is now if you are flashed while in scope you hardly get any kind of flash effect on your screen.
The thing that I guess bothers me most about sniping in CT is that it's not really sniping. You're not really lying in wait lining up a shot. It's more like a long-range single snap shot that you do and then you put down the rifle.
I always sort of liked the mechanic in TF2 where your sniper rifle had to "charge up" so it encouraged snipers to actually be snipers and stay zoomed in for a while watching a spot, instead of just snap shotting to sniper mode when they saw an enemy. Now the charge up wouldn't work well for CT, but I was thinking maybe of modifying the sniper sway such that instead of having to hold your breath with the right click, We could just have sniper sway gradually go down the longer you're zoomed in. So there's a lot of sway when you first switch to sniper mode. Moderate sway after like a half second and then after a second or two of being zoomed in, the sway is completely gone and you can free aim. Fire a shot and you get some more sniper sway until it stabilizes again. That way it makes the rifle more of a true sniping weapon and not a medium range replacement for autofire.
new engine. stop comparing. =/.
flash should affect snipers in a stronger and more reliable way.
i don't think it's such a good idea to nerf sniping as it's one of the rare moments you can kill a good spy, eg while he's running away or not expecting you (out of hbs range).
Quote from: Gawain on December 23, 2007, 06:33:56 PM
i don't think it's such a good idea to nerf sniping as it's one of the rare moments you can kill a good spy, eg while he's running away or not expecting you (out of hbs range).
Well honestly, I'd like to see sniping become sniping. If you're shooting at a target running away from you at medium range, you should just be using autofire. If that means buffing the rifle's autofire capability a bit to compensate balance wise, I'm fine with that, but I'd rather prefer sniping to be the guy sitting up atop the box on deftech waiting for you to jump the wall then shooting you, as opposed to the "oh look a spy just appeared! zoom, snap shot, dead."
I just hate the fact that sniping is like the pros replacement for any kind of medium range combat. I'd prefer it become a tactical device, where you train your rifle on a vent and then the spy peeks his head out and you shoot him, or you pop the spy from across the level or something.
We need COD4 sniping in this game with 50 cal power ;D
Sniping needs some more kickback. It also needs to have a better breath holding system. When you are out of breath that thing needs to go way out of wack. It depends on how long you hold your breath though... Sniping is just too easy to use at medium or even close range sometimes. One way we could cut down on that is the kickback, the zoom distances, and give more unstability while moving or aiming - make it only completely stable while holding your breath.
there's no real need to nerf anything. if you are in middle range and let the merc snipe you, you played bad or generally suck at this game. if you are on mid distance and a merc knows where you are, you better taze+flash/smoke/chaff him and run for your life.
i think with smoother aiming people wouldn't use zoom so much anyways.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 23, 2007, 07:26:24 PM
Sniping needs some more kickback. It also needs to have a better breath holding system. When you are out of breath that thing needs to go way out of wack. It depends on how long you hold your breath though... Sniping is just too easy to use at medium or even close range sometimes. One way we could cut down on that is the kickback, the zoom distances, and give more unstability while moving or aiming - make it only completely stable while holding your breath.
The hold breath mechanic doesn't do much. All that does is screw people who are slow to aim. But I mean, who cares... being slow to aim is a penalty all by itself since it takes you longer to get the head shot. I fail to see the need for the "Oops you took too long, now your crosshair goes to hell and you miss" mechanic in the game. It makes the sniper rifle a harder weapon for a newbie to use, but does nothing to really weaken it in the hands of a pro. Anti-newbie mechanics are not needed at all. Newbies nerf themselves. By taking 3 seconds to line up a headshot instead of half a second, thats enough of a penalty.
As far as nerfing zoom distances... um wtf? It's a sniper rifle. It's supposed to be good at long range. Zooming should be a main capability.
What it shouldn't become is a medium range weapon. If a spy elbows you and starts running you should go to the scope, you should be using autofire. Unless the spy is running there in sight for a second or two, you really shouldn't have a great opportunity to snipe him. As it is currently, taking a snap shot snipe is going to probably inflcit way more damage than autofire, even if you just hit him in the body. Not to mention it's more accurate.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 23, 2007, 08:38:24 PM
As far as nerfing zoom distances... um wtf? It's a sniper rifle. It's supposed to be good at long range. Zooming should be a main capability.
yeah, umm, no shit? That's why I suggested LONGER zoom distances so it's harder to snipe up close and easier to snipe at long range. I should have made that a little more clear I guess, I forgot to say longer.
Invisible,
Fact of the matter is, most of this game's action occurs at medium to short range. This is what makes the Uzi extremely powerful in a lot of different situations.
I really don't think that something which takes quite a bit of skill to accomplish (the quick-snipe headshot) should be nerfed. On top of that, sniping can be negated through the use of flashbangs and chaff. No other weapon has any of its functions disabled through spy equipment.
If a merc decides to use the sniper at close range, good for him. That's his choice as a player. Your argument against it is simply that he shouldn't because it's a sniper rifle, which is a subjective "rule" that you made up. You complain that if you run straight at a merc that he can quick snipe you. Why are you running straight at a merc from his FOV?
Papa,
I also don't think that the sniper recoil needs to be changed at all. What I would like to see is the sway disappear. Sniper sway is good for single-player games, but for MP it's better to aim for consistent mechanics.
Really, I'd like to see the following:
-Flash is not negated by going back into snipe mode (I think that this will provide enough of a nerf that you are looking for, invisible).
-remove sway
-This goes without saying being that it's a new engine, but fix the dumb auto-aim where "sweeping" the crosshair results in easier headshots. This also works for the shotgun.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 23, 2007, 11:27:14 PM
No other weapon has any of its functions disabled through spy equipment.
I could name: reloading of all weapons when chaffed, mines (that's a weapon IMO) are disabled when chaffed.
By weapon I meant guns. By functions I meant features while firing it. The rifle also has its reload disabled through chaff, so the fact that all guns behave like this is moot. The sniper rifle has a specific feature, sniping, that can be disabled through chaff and flashbangs while the other guns will always work so long as there is ammo in the magazine.
Which is yet another reason why I wanted a rifle-only system, but we're not going to get into that here :).
Aggreed.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 23, 2007, 11:33:51 PM
Which is yet another reason why I wanted a rifle-only system, but we're not going to get into that here :).
hopefully.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 23, 2007, 11:27:14 PM
-This goes without saying being that it's a new engine, but fix the dumb auto-aim where "sweeping" the crosshair results in easier headshots. This also works for the shotgun.
is this really part of ct's game mechanics? did you really try it out? i got the same feeling but i'm not that sure.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 23, 2007, 11:27:14 PM
Fact of the matter is, most of this game's action occurs at medium to short range. This is what makes the Uzi extremely powerful in a lot of different situations.
Well, the uzi is your general purpose gun. It certainly shouldn't kill as fast as a sniper shot, and it should be moderately useful at medium to short range, with only limited effectiveness at long range. As it is now, the uzi is probably slightly too accurate at long range, so it may require a max accuracy nerf if the rifle is nerfed a bit.
Quote
I really don't think that something which takes quite a bit of skill to accomplish (the quick-snipe headshot) should be nerfed. On top of that, sniping can be negated through the use of flashbangs and chaff. No other weapon has any of its functions disabled through spy equipment.
Well, I'd like to keep the skill in sniping, just put it in a different spot. Basically sniping would become a bit more tactical, where it helps if you know where the spy is coming, however in my system, there wouldn't be any sway after you wait a second or two in snipe mode, and the rifle would be more responsive, so you could actually get head shots easier if you're ready. The current rifle as it is now, isn't a very effective sniping weapon, because of the sway/hold breath thing, but it's really good if you use it for quick snap shots.
Really, I'd like to make it more of a tactical sniping weapon, rather than the pro-twitch skill weapon it is now. I could even envision adding a few other enhancements to the scoped view, like some shadow inversion after you've had it out for a second or two, so you can better snipe spies in the dark. Or possibly just allow the laser to be used while zoomed. As the long range killer, it should have some extra detection capabilities.
This as I said, may require autofire get a boost, because people won't be able to rely on the scope to handle medium range combat anymore.
As far as chaff/flash,
I really don't think that chaff should stop people from sniping, as it doesn't stop any other weapon from firing. Flashes should create a blind sniper, as you'd expect, though shouldn't do anything else to sniping mode. Only thing that should probably take you out of snipe mode is getting grabbed, elbowed or shocked.
Quote
If a merc decides to use the sniper at close range, good for him. That's his choice as a player. Your argument against it is simply that he shouldn't because it's a sniper rifle, which is a subjective "rule" that you made up. You complain that if you run straight at a merc that he can quick snipe you. Why are you running straight at a merc from his FOV?
Well it's not so much running at the merc, more like running away from the merc, or even just stopping to hit the merc with the SS or something. It just rather annoys me that it's all rifle players do is just go to sniper mode all the time, except the spy is literally in their face. While the weapon does take skill, it's all twitch skills and not really tactical skill and the weapon just doesn't feel like a sniper rifle. I'd like to make it more of a tactical weapon (as a sniper rifle should be) instead of a weapon solely based on FPS skills.
As far as subjective "rule", the way the weapons are supposed to go is: Shotgun is the best at short range, uzi is the best at medium and sniper is the best at long range. But quite frankly, the sniper is best at any range except point blank if you've got the twitch skills required to use it. The sniper as it is now is the uber gun with a bunch of anti-newbie stuff, like the sway and breathing key, out there just to make it really difficult to use in terms of twitch skills required. And if we were playing a straight up FPS game, that'd be fine, but given that this game is supposed to be more strategy oriented, I just don't think a weapon with the rifle's current paradigm fits well.
Your weapon should reflect what tactical position you want to play. A rifle user is going to be a sniping, picking off spies from the distance, but weak up close. The uzi is going to be a general purpose weapon, decent at everything, but not particularly great anything in particular. The shotgun naturally sucks at long range and blows people's heads off at close range. And that's a tactical paradigm that's fun to play and adapt to.
I always saw the rifle as a weapon that was designed with console controls in mind, and ended up getting thrown out of balance by mouse control.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 23, 2007, 11:27:14 PM
Papa,
I also don't think that the sniper recoil needs to be changed at all. What I would like to see is the sway disappear. Sniper sway is good for single-player games, but for MP it's better to aim for consistent mechanics.
Really, I'd like to see the following:
-Flash is not negated by going back into snipe mode (I think that this will provide enough of a nerf that you are looking for, invisible).
-remove sway
-This goes without saying being that it's a new engine, but fix the dumb auto-aim where "sweeping" the crosshair results in easier headshots. This also works for the shotgun.
I disagree there. COD4 has a great balanced sniper system. ( the only problem is that most maps are designed for medium to close range fighting and it isn't designed for that ) The sway is great on MP. You have to time your shots very well because if you aren't holding your breath it can be difficult to get a headshot, or even just a hit.
The rest I agree with, except for the removing sway suggestion. That would just make it too easy to snipe.
Invisible, I think you're exaggerating the amount of times people do what you say, and you're certainly exaggerating the amount of times it actually results in a headshot.
As far as the "tactical" mindset you have: while that sounds good in theory, in reality you often don't know where the spy is coming from. The ability to quickly adapt to a situation (ie: go into snipe mode) is integral to getting those pesky spies.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 02:51:47 AM
Invisible, I think you're exaggerating the amount of times people do what you say, and you're certainly exaggerating the amount of times it actually results in a headshot.
Well, your average player doesn't do that, but pretty much play any good player and that's what they do. You'll rarely ever see them use autofire, except when you're right up in their face. If you run away, you always hear the click of the sniper scope. And yeah, they don't always get a head shot, but usually just hitting the body is going to deal more damage than what they'd have done with autofire.
I'm not proposing we get rid of sniping, I'm just proposing that it's probably too fast if people are using it instead of autofire.
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As far as the "tactical" mindset you have: while that sounds good in theory, in reality you often don't know where the spy is coming from. The ability to quickly adapt to a situation (ie: go into snipe mode) is integral to getting those pesky spies.
That's true. But I'm not really suggesting a huge sniping delay. I'm saying maybe like just a half second or something before you've got only minor sniper sway and then after waiting a full second or second and a half, the sway is entirely gone.
The other option is to keep things as they are, get rid of sniper sway, but have body shots do only normal bullet damage (headshots still instakill). That way it'd probably be more efficient to use auto-fire if you can't get a head shot.
That might work too.
Another interesting thing to try would be to keep the rifle zoom as it is, but remove autofire from the rifle (maybe it just has burst or something). That way it becomes like the reversed shotgun. Where it's awesome at long range, but is total balls at close range. Though that might be a bit too extreme since you'd have virtually no chance against a spy in your face.
ONCE AGAIN, let's take a look at COD4 sniping! ;D The delay is perfect, and it looks awesome. In COD4 you take the gun and bring the scope up to your eye, it takes about half a second. This would be better than the almost instant switch we have now.
QuoteWell, your average player doesn't do that, but pretty much play any good player and that's what they do. You'll rarely ever see them use autofire, except when you're right up in their face.
This is incorrect. People use auto-fire plenty. The amount of people trying to imitate Mr.Mic's sniping vid has drastically decreased since a long time ago.
And even if they didn't, so what? That's their choice as a player. I really don't see a valid argument here. You are basically asking for something to be altered because it doesn't fit your constricted definition of what it "should" be, it was common at one point, and it has killed you a bunch of times.
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 08:00:56 AM
it was common at one point, and it has killed you a bunch of times.
I lol-ed.
I seriously still think that the snipe mode from SCCT was just fine. Don't fix or recreate something that ain't broke.
Not everyone uses rifle Invisible. So now take the portion that do use rifle and realize that more than 75% of people playing don't even snipe as much as you are saying. Some people do, yes, but that doesn't mean others have the same play style. They differ from player to player and you find what works for you.
Snipe mode now (not DA now, but CT now) has no problems in my eyes.
in all the games i played vs lediniz, vedhoc, 2face, illusion, sithduke, athelstan etc the last weeks i got no single snap headshot. you're really exaggerating here. the good spies have adapted to the situation and simply don't give the merc that opportunity very often.
i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.
Yeah, i lately roamed aound on some maps in PT... and i must say that i REALLY looked, felt, and played better than CT (if you're not a dj user ofcourse).
Quote from: Gawain on December 24, 2007, 12:50:58 PM
i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.
I have to disagree. You can very well play and win every single map using the uzi (given your partner has a rifle on some maps, of course). I always found it nice to surprise the spies by using a weapon they didn't expect (shotty on club - gold!).
btw. youre really pro, you play against all the good players, I wish I was as good as you!!! ::)
i didn't say that i'm "really pro" my sweetie.
please gawain remember that there will be People from mod of the year here at some point looking at the main site soo please keep it the insults to flat zero at all costs
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 08:00:56 AM
This is incorrect. People use auto-fire plenty. The amount of people trying to imitate Mr.Mic's sniping vid has drastically decreased since a long time ago.
Given I haven't played the PC version in awhile, this may actually be true, so I don't know. All I can say is that back when I played, snap shot style sniping was all the rave.
And I remember it being particularly deadly. Though maybe most of it I remember was just host snipes, since host sniper was by far the worst.
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And even if they didn't, so what? That's their choice as a player. I really don't see a valid argument here. You are basically asking for something to be altered because it doesn't fit your constricted definition of what it "should" be, it was common at one point, and it has killed you a bunch of times.
Well, yeah that is the argument. In the end, all opinions about this game are based on how we think the game "should" be. There's no real right or wrong opinion as far as that goes. Some people might want a DM style game of twitch skills, other people want a tactical game and so on.
So as far as saying how I feel the game "should" be, there's nothing wrong with that. Everytime any of us posts, we pretty much state how we think the game should be. Unlike ubi, we all hope the creators of PS are listening to our ideas and using them to the best of effect, instead of just blindly going with whatever they feel like, similar to what ubi did.
And while I think CT was a good game, I always felt there were certain things that needed addressing to make it a better game. One of them is making the weapons more tactically rounded and interesting. I'd even consider something where you can swap out your weapon at the ammo box or something, so that people can tactically switch their position mid-game.
As far as telling people how to play, game mechanics are going to do that regardless. Nobody snipes with a shotgun, because the game won't let you. So, there are going to be restrictions on the game regardless of what you do. I don't see making some tweaks to how sniping works to be extremely bad for the game.
Quote from: Gawain
i'm all for a single weapon (pt rifle) system. it's way easier to balance and the point "i wanna use uzi i'm no sniper" is just bullshit, as the rifle is a quite versatile weapon and you need to learn sniping anyways for some maps.
Well honestly, I feel it's too versatile. If this were a one weapon game like PT, you may have a point. But kebab already said he's integrating three weapons, meaning we've got to try to balance those three weapons.
The idea of the one weapon system is out the window by the design team, so we might as well not dwell on it like it was the primary balance point.
We're doing three weapons, and that means they need to have weaknesses and strengths. Shotgun we already know is good at short range, and sucky at long range. The uzi and the rifle are still open for some tweaking, though it's pretty much assumed the rifle is going to be good at long range, because it's the weapon with the scope.
I'm all fine with the rifle being a good weapon on sniping or long range levels, like station or factory. That's fine. But I don't want it being an uber weapon. Like it or not, there are still two other weapons.
atm, uzi is the "uber" weapon, not sniper. shotty has very limited use and is quite useless against good players (with no lag/host advantage), though it's possible to play with shotty on some maps if the other merc takes uzi/sniper.
there are strong reasons why a one weapon system is superior to a three weapon system. i always thought ps wanted to take the best gameplay elements of pt/ct/da and not only ct. maybe spekkio should make a list why pt rifle only is superior as he can express himself more clearly in english than me.
Ok, this discussion about 3 vs 1 weapons has been had before. The general consensus is that most people want to keep the 3 weapon system, so there's no point in arguing over it anymore.
QuoteI'm all fine with the rifle being a good weapon on sniping or long range levels, like station or factory. That's fine. But I don't want it being an uber weapon. Like it or not, there are still two other weapons.
The problem is that you can't switch between the weapons. It's not like you can hit #2 and take out the uzi, then hit #1 to take out the rifle. In the context of SvM gameplay, you need weapons that are versatile because otherwise the spies will just adapt to the situation and exploit it.
If we followed your suggestion and gimped the rifle's full-auto power even further, and paired it with fixing crap like funny punches and lag charges, taking it is just asking to be eliminated by a good team.
I think if you fixed the random convulsions/lag that went along with the uzi, it'd be a lot less powerful than it currently is, simply because the spies will treat it like the shotgun -- shock and stay away. But even still, the uzi can function as a semi-sniping weapon due to its very low spread. While you won't actually kill the spy, you can use it to keep him off of objectives or to "snipe" at placed bombs. Therefore it's very strong at close/medium range, and still has some adaptability to longer range.
That's the reason few people tend to take the shotgun except on the most claustrophobic of maps. Most of the time it lacks the adaptablity to long range that is afforded by the other two weapons.
The bottom line is that specialist weapons work in deathmatch type games because you can get more than one and switch on the fly. SvM doesn't allow you to do that. You make your decision before the match even starts, and you have to hope that it's the right one. Therefore, while the weapons can have specific strengths, they have to be generalist enough where they can somewhat adapt to an un-ideal situation. Quick sniping at a spy 3 feet from you isn't ideal; it's the product of a comparatively weak full-auto function paired with too many adolescents watching a sniper video.
The only weapon that lacks adaptability, really, is the shotgun, so perhaps more brainstorming should be done on how to adapt it to longer range. Maybe a secondary type of round that does lower damage but hits more accurately that is fired through using the snipe button. Would also be handy for taking out spy bullets and snares.
Finally, as has been stated: people have since learned to adapt to mercs who are way too sniper happy. See a merc, start moving in a zig-zag. Throw a flashbang to take him out of snipe and shock him. Throw a chaff at him. Whatever. Just don't stand still or run straight toward/away from him, and you shouldn't have a problem.
QuoteWell, yeah that is the argument. In the end, all opinions about this game are based on how we think the game "should" be.
Yes, but usually there's more support and reasoning besides "it was common back in the day and I died a lot to it, so change it."
Quote from: Spekkio on December 24, 2007, 08:18:29 PM
The problem is that you can't switch between the weapons. It's not like you can hit #2 and take out the uzi, then hit #1 to take out the rifle. In the context of SvM gameplay, you need weapons that are versatile because otherwise the spies will just adapt to the situation and exploit it.
If we followed your suggestion and gimped the rifle's full-auto power even further, and paired it with fixing
crap like funny punches and lag charges, taking it is just asking to be eliminated by a good team.
Yeah, that's true. So I suppose we probably shouldn't try to specialize it as much. The only problem we have currently is that the shotgun right now is specialized, so unless we somehow turn that into a more general purpose weapon, things may be difficult.
But you're right that we can't afford to gimp one weapon too much in one area, because you can't switch on the fly, so gimping full auto is probably too extreme.
That's originally why I was pushing to change around the sniping function a bit and make the full auto better. The gimping full auto thing was mostly a last resort if people insist on use snap shot sniping for everything (medium or short range), then we could just make that the rifle's thing, and make the rifle real weak up close. That's probably too extreme though, because an aggro team would chew you up (though maybe not so much with an upgraded taser).
And I certainly agree with you that the uzi gets nerfed just by having the lag removed. The uzi isn't the uber weapon people make it out to be. As long as it's not a host uzi, it's not even really all that bad. So I'm kind of worried about if we keep the rifle the same, it's going to become a super gun. Because less lag only helps people snipe, so we may see more snap shot sniping. Also, there are already so many special things you can do with a rifle that you can't do with an uzi, like sniping bombs from far away. If anything, we need to differentiate the weapons better.
The easiest solution in my opinion is actually to make the rifle autofire better, but make sniping a bit less quick. Not a serious nerf, but just impose a delay on the sniping.
Now I can see the argument for just having one gun, but we're not doing that, so we now have to make them balanced. That's probably going to mean toning down the rifle a bit. It doesn't need huge nerfs, but it should be brought down a little, since it's by far the most versatile weapon.
Really the question becomes, if we leave the rifle as is, what is the uzi's role? What can the uzi do well that the rifle can't?
QuoteThe easiest solution in my opinion is actually to make the rifle autofire better, but make sniping a bit less quick. Not a serious nerf, but just impose a delay on the sniping.
If you do this, then why have the uzi at all?
Goes back to the 1 gun argument, as you pointed out.
I really don't think there's anything wrong with the rifle as is. If quick-sniping were that big of a thing where all the experienced players were doing it effectively, I could see the call for a nerf. As it is, the only time where this most often results in a kill on me is if they see me hacking a terminal, and there's a delay in trying to get off it. The other times are usually luck or an extremely skillful shot, and I'm willing to just tip my hat to the latter.
QuoteReally the question becomes, if we leave the rifle as is, what is the uzi's role? What can the uzi do well that the rifle can't?
Fight spies at medium/close range. It has 2.5x the ROF and magazine capacity and does ~75% as much damage from its optimal range. Its full auto damage falls off a little more quickly than the rifle's, which makes sense since the rifle is specialized for longer range combat.
QuoteAlso, there are already so many special things you can do with a rifle that you can't do with an uzi, like sniping bombs from far away.
The uzi is accurate enough to do this full-auto.
Funny how the "footsteps>hbs" thread made it back around to Rifle, Uzi, and Shotgun.
@Invisible: The uzi can unload a great deal of bullets into you from close to med range. Nothing would need to be changed aside from clip-size and no screen flash.
This is really off topic. I may even make a new thread just to discuss the ROF and such of the assault rifle.
Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 24, 2007, 10:10:33 PM
Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again
Yeah
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 24, 2007, 10:10:33 PM
Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again
Maybe because he don't think the guns are good and balanced. Even though you and I think so.
Quote from: Frelli on December 25, 2007, 12:35:14 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 24, 2007, 10:10:33 PM
Why when the guns don't really need to be discussed....again
Maybe because he don't think the guns are good and balanced. Even though you and I think so.
I acknowledge what you're saying. I thought the adjustments agreed to were already being applied.
Well, I didn't exactly know what adjustments were being applied. You can let that thread die now if you don't wish to see the community's opinion on it.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 26, 2007, 04:21:38 AM
Well, I didn't exactly know what adjustments were being applied. You can let that thread die now if you don't wish to see the community's opinion on it.
It's not rejecting the communities opinion at all, but nice attempt at manipulating what I was saying. I thought that the guns were already set with their new modifications. I didn't say someone couldn't state their opinion. I'm just saying why bother when its potentially already set in devs' minds?
Quote from: Westfall-US on December 26, 2007, 04:54:41 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 26, 2007, 04:21:38 AM
Well, I didn't exactly know what adjustments were being applied. You can let that thread die now if you don't wish to see the community's opinion on it.
It's not rejecting the communities opinion at all, but nice attempt at manipulating what I was saying. I thought that the guns were already set with their new modifications. I didn't say someone couldn't state their opinion. I'm just saying why bother when its potentially already set in devs' minds?
Lol, I wasn't trying to manipulate your words. Didn't mean to sound as sarcastic as I did. I meant to say that if it is already decided then it doesn't totally matter if we talk about it or not, so just let it die.
Goodkebab always talks in a "there will not be..." way instead of "I think it should be...". I think it's just how he communicates and doesn't mean there has been a final decision on it.
Then lets keep the topic going then...l0l