What about letting players decide which gamemode they want to play, just like in PT?
A fourth mode "Story" could be added aswell, which would be as it is now in CT, so we'd have
Neutralization, Sabotage, Extraction and Story.
Plus Deathmatch as a seperate mode, maybe only selectable if the server is not full yet?
Just brainstorming.
Too much like SCPT.
Plus making DM only selectable when games are not full would mean more people just DM'ing in Story matches when we least expect it, they can do it if they want but it's easier for us and them to have a DM mode, it's piss easy to make a DM mode too so why not :P.
what i don't get is why those newbs don't try to play a dm like style in story mode where the mercs don't expect it. i guess they get pwned by nades/mines/vision modes/uzi/shotty/skill and are too dumb to actually hack something after a break/ko.
If you wanna keep DM out of any other mode then you should add it as an option, not "just" when the server isnt full. If people wanna play deathmatch then let them, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be added.
Yeah .. of course, but I think PS should focus on playing story. We obviously don't want a situation like in CT now, where half the servers are DM on Aquarius. Not making Deathmatch a seperate option would lower the chance of newbies that open the game, play deathmatch and stick to it. If the story mode gets as thrilling as I expect, why would anyone want to play deathmatch in the first place?
Exactly, make Story more attractive but have DM as an option. You shouldn't penalize it or make it any different to other modes. I'm telling you, if you don't give DM players somewhere to play then they will invade the other gametypes and ruin them. So you'd happily transfer them into you games than let them be in their separate rooms?
People will always play DM. Always.
Having story as the default in PT didnt make fewer DM games. People just played story with made up rules for DM.
Okay, if DM has to be in...I propose some fixes. Mercs need a reason to roam around and not camp in a corner. The same goes for spies, they need a reason to move around and not sit ontop of a box until the merc gets bored and passes close enough for an instant kill. Berserk? Flares? Frags and some vision modes would be better since the spy gets them too. I'm not saying a Merc can't win even 3v1 against spies with flashbangs, no vision modes and no berserk but I dont see why they should have to.
is it possible to ban ut cd keys from ps?
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 17, 2007, 11:54:34 PM
Okay, if DM has to be in...I propose some fixes.
Nah, we shouldn't' waste our time fixing DM. If anything it should suck so that hopefully people wont' want to play it. The only reason it's there is as a filter parameter so that we don't have to worry about joining story games and hearing how they're really deathmatch. That's it.
not really. DM is also for luring new people. Perhaps some day they will switch to story.
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 17, 2007, 11:54:34 PM
Okay, if DM has to be in...I propose some fixes. Mercs need a reason to roam around and not camp in a corner. The same goes for spies, they need a reason to move around and not sit ontop of a box until the merc gets bored and passes close enough for an instant kill. Berserk? Flares? Frags and some vision modes would be better since the spy gets them too. I'm not saying a Merc can't win even 3v1 against spies with flashbangs, no vision modes and no berserk but I dont see why they should have to.
Exactly. If you are
really going to put a DM mode into the game, then you have to support it. That means changing the gameplay and rules accordingly, not putting the characters with story rules into the map with inf time and one gadget.
Otherwise, don't even bother and let people have fun fudging DM with the mod. I doubt that will happen much, though, because UT3 DM >>>>>>> PS DM
Quote from: Spekkio on December 18, 2007, 12:51:25 AM
Exactly. If you are really going to put a DM mode into the game, then you have to support it. That means changing the gameplay and rules accordingly, not putting the characters with story rules into the map with inf time and one gadget.
Otherwise, don't even bother and let people have fun fudging DM with the mod. I doubt that will happen much, though, because UT3 DM >>>>>>> PS DM
The purpose of DM is solely to prevent people from wasting time joining games that you think is story and yet are DM. And yeah, I know you can label the game "deathmatch" in the room title, but lets face it, most DM players take 5 minutes to find their own ass with both hands, so thinking of naming your room "DM!!" is not going to come to them. Then there's those annoying fuckers who join your game and ask to play deathmatch and you have to kick them.
Lets not do that again.
As far as people who can play UT3 DM instead of PS DM, that oddly enough isn't true. It seems like ti should be, but it's not. A lot of people play CT DM on xbox, just like on PC. I don't know why they don't just pop in Halo 2, but for whatever reason they don't (and I highly doubt that they don't own halo 2). CT DM might be total ass, but for whatever reason, some people like it.
I like CT because the style of the game. What other game do you get to hunt down player controlled spies and kill them? You can't. There really is no other game with that kind of experience regardless of the balance of CT DM. It is kind of fun at times, but story mode is where it's at. I've convinced a lot of people to play story because it is much more deep and tactical.
We would probably have to create "DM" maps for DM to be appropriate.....otherwise players are going to have DM servers anyways. Its not a high priority before beta though.
DM_assault - gotta love this one.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on December 18, 2007, 10:32:17 AM
DM_assault - gotta love this one.
;D
some thoughts about dm:
-with a working blacklist (/skill indicator+filter/some way of stopping smurfing) and the small amount of players it's easy to avoid dm morons
-dm players are very unlikely to get anywhere good in story mode (you only play dm if you are stupid; there are even dm clans wtf)
-it shouldn't be possible to start the game with 3on1 in story mode (they call it "tag" if i got that right and it's quite popular among dm players) and there should be no customizable settings (after beta of course) because it's only noobs who want to make up their own rules instead of playing the game the way it's meant to be (no nvidia advertising lolz)
-better tutorial explaining the idea of story mode would help a lot
-it's not worth the time to implement a special dm mode, just give them another game mode (maybe with customizable settings) so that we can use it as a filter
Gawain, why do you want to ruin the game experience for anyone who prefers to play a bit different from you? I agree that the main focus should be on story, but come on, we don't have to do everything we can to make it a bad game for DM players!
this project is for the vets of the pc story mode ::)
and if you actually read my thought you would have noticed that
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:20:46 PM
-it's not worth the time to implement a special dm mode, just give them another game mode (maybe with customizable settings) so that we can use it as a filter
and other stuff (like no tag in story mode) is not to take away the fun in dm, but it helps to better seperate the two groups from each other.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:34:43 PM
this project is for the vets of the pc story mode ::)
The devs have already stated that to build a player base, the game needs to be aimed towards a bigger audience.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:20:46 PM
-it's not worth the time to implement a special dm mode, just give them another game mode (maybe with customizable settings) so that we can use it as a filter
That's hardly relevant, unless the custom settings include settings for whether or not the objectives should be there, in which case it will practically be DM. And that's fine by me, although there should be some kind of standardized DM settings. As for not being worth it, it seems you're willing to go much further in doing things that will make DM suck than what you will do for making it balanced.
Quoteand other stuff (like no tag in story mode) is not to take away the fun in dm, but it helps to better seperate the two groups from each other.
I'd think it was MORE separated if story players played 2on2 and DM players played 3on1...
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:20:46 PM
-dm players are very unlikely to get anywhere good in story mode (you only play dm if you are stupid; there are even dm clans wtf)
if you really want to attract more players, you need:
-good tutorial
-competitive environment and leagues
-good advertising
-minimize stuff like random bs, lag, bugs, etc
-a portal with advanced tutorials, videos or replay of ggs, news, etc
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:20:46 PM
you only play dm if you are stupid
This statement shows extreme bias and intolerance for other forms of play. You'd do well to show a little respect even if you disagree with someone. Especially when generalizing a group like this.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 01:15:33 PM
if you really want to attract more players, you need:
-competitive environment and leagues
Not everyone play a game to become über-1337, just to try something new and have fun.
Other than that, you are more or less stating the obvious, and ignoring my arguments utterly.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:34:43 PM
this project is for the vets of the pc story mode ::)
For the last time, SHUT THE FUCK UP about this being a damn mod only for vets, for christ sake!
We already said that it is to anyone who wants to play it and we're not limiting the fucking community because they're good or bad players.
the dm folks play a totally different game...
tell me one good reason why i shoudln't consider dm players morons.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 18, 2007, 01:21:50 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 01:15:33 PM
if you really want to attract more players, you need:
-competitive environment and leagues
Not everyone play a game to become über-1337, just to try something new and have fun.
i didn't say that you have to join a league or play competitevely, you should read more carefully. my thought is that a game like starcraft stays alive for over 10 years and the general level is way higher than in other rts games (it's the same with css (even i don't like it)). i think those folks have tons of fun...
i think my idea not to allow tag in story mode is quite reasonable. it would also make sense being able to start the game with only 2 spies but this has been discussed elsewhere.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 02:11:54 PM
the dm folks play a totally different game...
tell me one good reason why i shoudln't consider dm players morons.
I'm not talking about DM players, I'm talking about your retarded view of this mod being only for the vets.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 02:11:54 PM
the dm folks play a totally different game...
tell me one good reason why i shoudln't consider dm players morons.
No, tell me why you should consider them morons just because they like to play the game differently than you.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 18, 2007, 01:21:50 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 01:15:33 PM
if you really want to attract more players, you need:
-competitive environment and leagues
Not everyone play a game to become über-1337, just to try something new and have fun.
i didn't say that you have to join a league or play competitevely, you should read more carefully. my thought is that a game like starcraft stays alive for over 10 years and the general level is way higher than in other rts games (it's the same with css (even i don't like it)). i think those folks have tons of fun...
i think my idea not to allow tag in story mode is quite reasonable. it would also make sense being able to start the game with only 2 spies but this has been discussed elsewhere.
I think that limiting anything in order to bend the game towards your playing style is not reasonable. The worst thing that can happen is that you have to leave a few games, something you'd have to do anyways. So what? It's no big deal.
Besides, the world isn't black and white. It's perfectly possible to play both story and DM.
And again, you refuse to address half my post.
Right, anyways...
What if in DM, spies had certain objectives to trigger a win, the same for Mercs. The spies need 5 necks and 5 jumps (between them)to trigger a win. Mercs need 5 humiliation kills and 5 weapon kills? Kind of like objectives but objectives that are deathmatch related?
if you insist on a dedicated dm mode, you have to prohibit camping.
how about this:
-1 life/player
-all areas including spawn accessable, no vents etc
-map design with much darkness, split jump places, gas tanks, etc
-mercs win by killing the spies, spies win by surviving or killing the mercs
-spy eq: camo, snares, flash, smoke
-merc eq: rifle; frags, flares/phos.nades, spytraps, camnet
this sounds like some fun to me, especially because the spies get no recon tools and the merc no mines.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 03:23:18 PM
if you insist on a dedicated dm mode, you have to prohibit camping.
how about this:
-1 life/player
-all areas including spawn accessable, no vents etc
-map design with much darkness, split jump places, gas tanks, etc
-mercs win by killing the spies, spies win by surviving or killing the mercs
-spy eq: camo, snares, flash, smoke
-merc eq: rifle; frags, flares/phos.nades, spytraps, camnet
this sounds like some fun to me, especially because the spies get no recon tools and the merc no mines.
Lots of good ideas, although I don't think they should have only one life each (I don't want to spend as much time launching a game as being in it) - but it could work if the game was split into rounds.
I don't agree on the equipment either: I don't think it should be set, but some gadgets should be removed, like recon tools and mines. I don't think, for example, that the mercs should have spy traps and camnets, since those are recon.
Other than that, I agree with everything.
the idea behind this is that the mercs hunt down the spies who can set up ambushes or try to hide. this could work and be thrilling with the mercs having a chance to sneak on the spies and to kinda lock down recently scanned areas with traps. it would also make sense to split up to find the spies in time which is kinda risky on the other hand.
i also remember a mode called "predator" which is tag upside down which works approximately (can't remember exactly) like this: 3 mercs with nothing but standard vision and rifle try to hunt down a spy with flash, smoke, camo, snares. again, a map with no safe zones for the spy would be needed.
don't get me wrong, story mode is still way better but these modes at least require some brain and camping doesn't work.
IMO there is no point in creating complex and complicated DM.
People who usually play it, do it because they like to break others necks. They dont like sneaking, tactics or anything else. They just want to humiliate the mercenary at all cost.
People also play it cause they want to take a break from thinking, planning and want to spend some time on plain fun. All restrictions are gay cause there is no point in forbidding something that someone likes. If they want to play 3-1, why not let them ? If they want to play against merc armed only with flares and charge, why should we take away the pleasure they gain from it ? Perhaps they will enjoy so much that they tell their friends about this game and those guys will enjoy story after trying it ?
Letting players decide how they play is crucial cause it gives them an opportunity to develop themselves and the game. Only if the fanbase gets new players this project makes sense and that means that we need to make some concessions to encourage them.
Quote from: neth on December 18, 2007, 05:08:23 PM
IMO there is no point in creating complex and complicated DM.
People who usually play it, do it because they like to break others necks. They dont like sneaking, tactics or anything else. They just want to humiliate the mercenary at all cost.
Not really. It's possible to play DM and be sneaky... You don't rush out, instead you try to sneak up and get a grab.
Quote from: Cyntrox on December 18, 2007, 05:11:27 PM
Quote from: neth on December 18, 2007, 05:08:23 PM
IMO there is no point in creating complex and complicated DM.
People who usually play it, do it because they like to break others necks. They dont like sneaking, tactics or anything else. They just want to humiliate the mercenary at all cost.
Not really. It's possible to play DM and be sneaky... You don't rush out, instead you try to sneak up and get a grab.
:)
It's not a complicated Deathmatch it's just a deathmatch where something is happening apart from spies camping on boxes and mercs camping on the highest ground they can find. Even if its something like the map is divided into 5 zones. (picture 5 on a die)
(https://community.projectstealthgame.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewmedia.purchase.edu%2F%7EJeanine%2Fdice5.gif&hash=00975dd138dd2b2d59129f47114866bcb5c56719)
Each one of those spots are zones that has a light hack that can be hacked and reset. This would give the merc a reason to move around(keep the map lit) and give the spies a reason to hack them(ambush bait + darkness). If the merc decides to camp he'd do it in a pitch black map, where as if the spies decide to camp they'd do it in a well lit map. Now lights are just an example, depending on the map it could be something as nice as roof shutters to stop it raining and whatever else people can come up with.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 03:23:18 PM
if you insist on a dedicated dm mode, you have to prohibit camping.
how about this:
-1 life/player
-map design with much darkness, split jump places, gas tanks, etc
-mercs win by killing the spies, spies win by surviving or killing the mercs
-spy eq: camo, snares, flash, smoke
-merc eq: rifle; frags, flares/phos.nades, spytraps, camnet
this sounds like some fun to me, especially because the spies get no recon tools and the merc no mines.
1 life for people doesn't sound like a good idea. Imagine story with 1 life...it wouldn't be very fun.
Spies winning by surviving the mercs gives them a reason to do nothing but run away and survive the round. The equipment promotes aggro since the spies have snares flash and smoke but the merc doesn't have gas mask and I don't know whether he has visions to counter flash.
Not bad. Me likes.
How about letting spies hack a water valve, so water raises slowly on the map? Spies could swim, since they don't have as much eq as mercs, which would not be able to.
This would make the mercs fight to get to the hacks, and it wouldn't be easier for the spies anyways.
The only problem with my idea is there's nothing to stop both mercs camping any 1 spot and letting the rest go. So it would have to be if more than 50% of the hacks are hacked by spies, they all go off. That way the mercs can't camp or they'll be totally lost but if the mercs hold over 50% of the hacks all of them are lit. To make the game mode less annoying there might have to be warnings like "Panel A is being hacked..." and "Panel A is being reset...".
Quote from: SITHDUKE on December 18, 2007, 06:48:22 PM
The only problem with my idea is there's nothing to stop both mercs camping any 1 spot and letting the rest go. So it would have to be if more than 50% of the hacks are hacked by spies, they all go off. That way the mercs can't camp or they'll be totally lost but if the mercs hold over 50% of the hacks all of them are lit. To make the game mode less annoying there might have to be warnings like "Panel A is being hacked..." and "Panel A is being reset...".
yes if the light you hack is the light where you are... but if you hack and the lights at a other hack turn off then the merc will have even more difficulty protecting it
Then you'd need an even number of hacks and that didnt' fit into my 5 on a dice thing. :P
Death match is hard to balance because it generally goes to the side that camps. If the merc just sits in a corner, then he wins, if the spy just lies in wait, then he usually wins. Especially if you take away side grabs, it'll be all too easy for a merc to just find a flat piece of terrain and wait there.
You basically have to get the mercs moving, but without the defensive aspects. So I propose something like waypoints. Basically the mercs have to go to specific waypoints in order in a specific amount of time. If time runs out, the mercs lose. Spies basically act as ambushers along the path to these way points. If the mercs complete enough waypoint laps, then they win. So for instance, on a map like museum, you could have to go from the top of exhibition to the back of monolith to the outside, then back to exhibition again to do one lap. All the while the spies are lying in wait and going for your neck.
Offhand I'd say you get infinite lives, but a merc death means that he's slowed down from getting his objective and a spy death might add time to the merc's clock.
It wouldn't be a great game, but it'd be better than the DM we have now.
Nah that wouldn't work, you're basically taking the guesswork out of the where and how to ambush a merc.
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:34:43 PM
this project is for the vets of the pc story mode ::)
meh .. :-\
(speechless about such an amout of stupidity)
OK. When I suggest this you have to remember this is a deathmatch alternative. It adds strategy yet keeps the agro techniques which DM players enjoy.
Keep open minds! Just because it wasn't in CT it doesn't mean it couldn't work in PS!
Gametype: Patrol
Objective: Kill the opposing team. Reach the markers.
Detail: Placed around the map is a minimum of 6 terminals which look similar to the ones in DA. At random these markers will open (the tops) with a thing the teams can hack inside. The open terminal will appear on the spy and mercs HUD. From here it is the first to reach it. On the way the teams should be on the lookout for the enemy, and using corridors as ambushes on the way to these terminals is a good way to get a kill.
Once reached the member will be put into FP view and become stationary regardless of team and hack for a period of time at least 20 seconds. The terminals can be hacked from any angle and spies may do so while crouching.
This is when teamwork comes in handy, the teammate should be on the lookout at all times for the enemy who could run in and stop the hacking at anytime. During this time, the hacker cannot be killed by lethal drop it only knocks them unconscious (hacking Mercs will also lose their SD during this period and will not receive alerts if their teammate dies (same for spies)) The hacking time on each terminal does NOT reset.
First to hit the high points wins.
High points is equal to the total lives between the opposing team.
1 Kill = 1 Point
1 Terminal = 2 Points
There are no other ways to accumulate points (this isn't gonna turn into the point system you all hated so much!)
What do you think?
Any suggestions would also be welcome :P
Hmm. Sounds like Spy vs Spy doesn't it? I've never played it but that sounds like what I've heard and seen about it.
I like the idea (don't know who suggested it) where the lights are all hackable. Keeps people moving.
The thing is that stealth in DM should still be possible. Otherwise you could just call it AggroMatch.
Never played spy v spy neither do I know how it plays out :)
How would shutting off lights keep you moving? If i'm a merc I couldn't give two sh**s it all the lights are out.
I think my idea would need tweaking in the method of hacking but I like the idea of it :)
You would care if the lights are out with nerfed visions, or no visions. If the map was a little more vertical then you'd be fucked.
Pretty much your idea is like Domination? It's a common gamemode where whoever controls the most posts for the longest time wins, but the killing affects the scores for your suggestion. We could make it so that if the spies control that post or hack it or whatever the lights go out in that area.
Yeah. That'd be quite cool. I don't mean territory control. Once the objective is hacked it closes again and a few seconds later another would open. Once its captured then that is it, the two points are gained and no more, the only way to get points after that would be to get another or kill someone. the key is that stealth is in the terminals whereas agro is in the killing (also stealth ambushes). The aim was to cater for everyone.
I like you idea of once its captured the points are gained and the zone leans more toward the owning parties needs. Things such as camnet, lights and elevators would only work when the zones belong to merc etc.
If you want spies to ambush mercs, the patrol route has to be defined so that spies have a good idea which way the mercs are going. Also, there's not really much point to allow spies to capture objectives, as their goal should be to kill the mercs. Spies can always outrun mercs, so if it's just a matter of merc or spy can hack an objective that randomly pops up, it's going to just be spies making a mad dash to the objective to outrun the mercs.
In DM basically the mercs need the objectives to keep them moving and the spies have to be the ambushers. Otherwise it just turns into speed hack instead of DM.
See development of ideas! ;)
That would solve the problem I had that a merc could just launch a grenade near a terminal to kill the spy. So I suppose we're suggesting a kinda reverse story?
Quote from: BurningDeath on December 18, 2007, 08:20:53 PM
Quote from: Gawain on December 18, 2007, 12:34:43 PM
this project is for the vets of the pc story mode ::)
meh .. :-\
(speechless about such an amout of stupidity)
what exactly is stupid about this statement? and even if this statement was stupid, calling me stupid is a pretty stupid generalization. i don't think someone heading to university to study physics can be that stupid...
ok as far as deathmatch is concerned, Sith i can say this that the mercs had no visions except flashlight and flares.
How about implementing this idea.. mercs have no flashlight, only flares.. teaching one to conserve thee equipment and , spies with no visions just utilizing the dark, I've tried this but very few want to play, because everyone is afraid of change.
I agree with everyone else, because as a player myself, i'm sick of people not reading the server names or not looking at what mode is, and then people join and say DM DM DM !!! which brings me to a boiling point when they dont shut up and makes me want to bring out the katana that i have hanging on my wall.
you got a katana? if i was living in the same city i would be afraid by now...
Katanz0rz pwn.
Just assume mercs would have gun and flares only, while spies no gadgets, and make the maps seem to be VR training (shiny lines here and there, etc).
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 18, 2007, 09:32:40 PM
That would solve the problem I had that a merc could just launch a grenade near a terminal to kill the spy. So I suppose we're suggesting a kinda reverse story?
Another simple option would just be DM as we have now, but with the option of placing bombs. The bombs have obscenely long timers (2 minutes maybe) and exist solely to prevent mercs from camping. If a bomb goes off, all mercs lose a life. The spy team can only have only one bomb planted at one time to prevent them from trying to just spam bombs.
Bombs wouldn't really be a normal way of winning since the timers are so long. They'd just be a way for spies to prevent the mercs from camping, though because the timer is so huge, it wouldn't really have the same defense and positioning requirements as story mode. It's just a way for the spy to throw down the gauntlet and say "lets fight here".
Spies need awareness of their surroundings. That's the whole point in the third person view. Spies should have a greater awareness of their surroundings and not being able to find your way around because of the darkness would be one of the problems. The mercs wouldn't be scared of the dark because the spies would be just as lost as the mercs. Mercs need flashlight to check the shadows, flares would be good if they show you the whole area but only lasted like 10 seconds.
Anyways I'm not a fan of the game telling me where I should go and when, that's the same basic principle of what's wrong with some sectored maps. The spies have a lack of choice in Warehouse because all the terminals are in a small room. Multiple terminals in one room isn't a choice, it's a lack of options. If a spy could choose between sector 1 and 2, the mercs couldn't be so overkill defending only 1 sector. Boy did I get offtopic, anyways I made a point somewhere in this post. ::)
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 18, 2007, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 18, 2007, 09:32:40 PM
That would solve the problem I had that a merc could just launch a grenade near a terminal to kill the spy. So I suppose we're suggesting a kinda reverse story?
Another simple option would just be DM as we have now, but with the option of placing bombs. The bombs have obscenely long timers (2 minutes maybe) and exist solely to prevent mercs from camping. If a bomb goes off, all mercs lose a life. The spy team can only have only one bomb planted at one time to prevent them from trying to just spam bombs.
Bombs wouldn't really be a normal way of winning since the timers are so long. They'd just be a way for spies to prevent the mercs from camping, though because the timer is so huge, it wouldn't really have the same defense and positioning requirements as story mode. It's just a way for the spy to throw down the gauntlet and say "lets fight here".
Hmmm.... I think current DM would be okay with the option of hacking more panels that affect the map more. DM on club house as an example. It is somewhat like story because you constantly see people defending the hack to open up the glass windows. The glass windows help the spies so they try and hack it. It's a bad example because opening the glass structure can mean certain death at times, but you get what I mean.
What if for merc they had to go through a really dark area just to be able to switch on an elevator that would help the merc travel between floor levels? I like it when you have to do risky things to achieve something.
DM is alrdy popular.... it's doesn't need much changes... why do you try to make DM a "story where the hack don't realy count" mode...
the only thing that ask for fixing is when the spy play I taz the merc and hide for 10 min
Just because it was popular doesn't mean that it needs no changes. DM is very unbalanced and usually turns into a campfest. The hacks DO count, they affect the map and how the match plays. If your team hacked a terminal, your team will have the advantage in fighting.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 19, 2007, 08:44:10 PM
Just because it was popular doesn't mean that it needs no changes. DM is very unbalanced and usually turns into a campfest. The hacks DO count, they affect the map and how the match plays. If your team hacked a terminal, your team will have the advantage in fighting.
Even with the lights off you can camp... and honestly "Camping" is usualy ppl complaining about somebody else strategie because can can't find a way to get them...
Merc will allways be able to find a corner to stay in... unless you make ur map a huge circle with nothing in it but then maybe you should go get some help
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 20, 2007, 12:43:47 AM
Even with the lights off you can camp... and honestly "Camping" is usualy ppl complaining about somebody else strategie because can can't find a way to get them...
In story, yeah, but not in DM. Camping in DM is basically a cheap merc tactic because it means that the spies can't use stealth to sneak up on you. When you can dictate the spot of the combat as merc, you pretty much win, unless you really suck.
Hell without sidegrabs, you can just park your ass next to a wall and you're fine. The spy can't grab you at all. This isnt' story where the spies can just ignore a camping merc and go somewhere else. You really have to go straight at the merc, and probably head-on, which is the equivalent to suicide.
That's the main gameplay problem with DM. There's just no reason for the merc not to camp. Even if the lights go out and shit, who cares. You just plant your back against a wall away from anything the spies can jump onto you from and you're set. You honestly don't even need a gun, you just sit there and berserk now and then, and the spy can't do anything. In DM as is, youc an barely do stuff because of side grabbing and host grabs, but take that away and it's basically impossible to get a merc hiding in a corner.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on December 20, 2007, 01:38:33 AM
Quote from: Test-Subject on December 20, 2007, 12:43:47 AM
Even with the lights off you can camp... and honestly "Camping" is usualy ppl complaining about somebody else strategie because can can't find a way to get them...
In story, yeah, but not in DM. Camping in DM is basically a cheap merc tactic because it means that the spies can't use stealth to sneak up on you. When you can dictate the spot of the combat as merc, you pretty much win, unless you really suck.
Hell without sidegrabs, you can just park your ass next to a wall and you're fine. The spy can't grab you at all.
this is where you fail to see that you can use a wall flip to neutrilize the merc when in doubt =)., not always about necks =) ,its about the objective for story.. but for DM, there always more then one way to skin a cat =).
Yeah agent, there isn't always a wall perpendicular to the corner he's camping in, you cannot backflip the merc that much. The best way to get a camping merc is to use teamwork and lure him out using the other spy. If that doesn't work then just wipe out his teammate and double team him.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 20, 2007, 08:12:14 AM
Yeah agent, there isn't always a wall perpendicular to the corner he's camping in, you cannot backflip the merc that much. The best way to get a camping merc is to use teamwork and lure him out using the other spy. If that doesn't work then just wipe out his teammate and double team him.
Problem is that smart mercs in DM (yes I know hard to believe that intelligence can exist in DM)... ANyway smart mercs are going to both be in the same corridor, on opposing corners.
it's nonsense to talk about dm as if people would play it in a competitive way. dm should be for fooling around and learning the basics, nothing more. heck, dm could even be fun on a "playground" map similar to steelsquat with all the gas tanks, railings, containers, crane etc
Yeah or just a small circle that you put everyone's spawn in and they pretty much have an orgy just trying to kill eachother. jk
I like Gawain's idea, with a map where it's actually fun to screw around. Like more interactivity, explosions, more open area connected by narrow corridors.
Quote from: Gawain on December 20, 2007, 05:47:49 PM
it's nonsense to talk about dm as if people would play it in a competitive way. dm should be for fooling around and learning the basics, nothing more. heck, dm could even be fun on a "playground" map similar to steelsquat with all the gas tanks, railings, containers, crane etc
Yeah. Thats generally what I believe, though someone asked how exactly you could make DM better, so I came up with some suggestions. Whether we want to actually bother doing that or not is another story. I seriously could care less about DM.
Well, DM is fun for like just screwing around or showing people around the map etc because there aren't any restrictions of where you can go. That's why I suggested a training mode a while back.
Quote from: Papa Skull on December 20, 2007, 09:08:31 PM
Well, DM is fun for like just screwing around or showing people around the map etc because there aren't any restrictions of where you can go. That's why I suggested a training mode a while back.
As far as training mode, youre better off just playing it in story, because otherwise you're showing the guy parts of the map that he may not normally be able to access. That'll screw with his strategies. If he wants to see what it looks like when you open the tech room doors, he can just hack greek.
Yeah, that's true. But I think everyone would want a map to just screw around on with lots of goodies right?
I dont think DM should be labeled as a playground gametype. Just because you don't you should realize that some people take DM as seriously as you do story.
just make DM maps dark and simple and the walls have electricity thingys on them and you get zapped when you touch them. They would be bright blue coils or something.
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 21, 2007, 04:12:41 AM
I dont think DM should be labeled as a playground gametype. Just because you don't you should realize that some people take DM as seriously as you do story.
those people should go jump in front of a train for the sake of humanity...
Quote from: T2C LeBron on December 21, 2007, 08:10:13 AM
the walls have electricity thingys on them and you get zapped when you touch them
that's the kind of stuff i'm talking about: an interactive map exactly designed for dm/fooling around.
-split jump places
-gas tanks, pipes that once destroyed let out water/inflammable gas
-electricity
-destroyable lights
-hack panes activating stuff like diggers/cranes/drop boxes
-puddles (ss and tazer fun)
-...
Quote from: Tidenburg on December 21, 2007, 04:12:41 AM
I dont think DM should be labeled as a playground gametype. Just because you don't you should realize that some people take DM as seriously as you do story.
You could still take it seriously and have a lot of fun doing it. I take story pretty seriously, but I have a lot of fun doing it still. In fact, why don't we make all maps fun and interactive as long as they are balanced? This is why I brought up my interactive maps thread.
Well, whatever we choose to do to DM has to be painfully simple. Setting up complex things like electrified walls just isn't worth the time to code. We don't want the programmers wasting time on DM.
Agree completely. Story must come first and if they have time they should make a DM (different than CT's) and see what it becomes. Maybe, a decent alternative to story that requires tactics also.