Everytime I watch a spy elbow someone in the face, I always laugh a bit. The merc is shooting him, so he brings his arm up by his chest, parallel to the ground, and throws his elbow out. It doesn't look like a very effective move.
I think a punch would be a much cooler looking animation. The spy would turn his torso at a 45 degree angle, bend at the knees, and slightly at his back, bringing his forearm up, while the punching hand going down behind him. Then, he would begin turning his torso, swinging his arm, and raising his knees. It would be a kind of uppercut mixed with a right hook.
I think this would show off the spies training more. If the spies are very agile, they should be able to do moves in a very fluid motion, not the stiff elbow. Also, I think the hit would look very realistic, along with the merc stumbling off to the side.
Maybe this wouldn't look like something a professional would do? I am not sure. But I personally think it would look amazing.
Elbows are MUCH more effective than fists. You would know that if you ever won a fight, or lost one for that matter. One of those reasons is because you can get more power from your elbow. And don't forget the fact that it would hurt way less to hit someone wearing a helmet with your elbow than it would be to use your fist.
As far as I know, the spy isn't trying to win in a hand to hand fight, he is trying to get away, by any means.
I would be fine if the current look of the move had any power, but as of now it looks as if it barely does anything.
it would be cool if the mercs lost like 8th or 16th of health too for each elbow, so if they get elbowed enough they would die lol ;D
Hmmm... I don't know about that. It would make mercs avoid direct confrontation with a slice of health left. Currently, they don't care what their health is when they fight a spy, unless they are uncareful about where they shoot their frags.
If I was trying to escape I would definitely make sure I throw in an elbow because of how disorientating it is to get hit by swinging elbow that is hard as a rock. The animation was a little weak, but our animators will do a better job. I assure you, elbows are much better than fists in a fight and for attempting to disorientate people.
Maybe the spy should just drill the merc in the stomach, leaving the merc kind of slouched for a few moments (not long enough for spies to run around and grab -.-).
Whatever the move ends up being, it needs to be very fluid, and slightly over-exaggerated, in my opinion. These guys are the pinnacle of agility, so they should show it.
I say, pull the mercs mask off....bet you that would stun the little bastard. Then, when he's not looking, sneak up behind him, grab his drawers, and yank those suckers up.
We want to stun him, not permanently remove his chance of making babies.
Permanently removing my chance of having babies would stun me.
Again, elbows are still the best weapon that anyone has. Unless they have a credit card, then they can slash his eyes and run.
It can be elbow, punches or anything else. Effect should remain the same.
The animation chosen will have to be quick, little to no "setup" or what is called anticipation in the world of animation. For example, a punch where it requires the spy to draw back or make any exaggerated motion that gives the blow that "powerful" feeling. This is for the sake of keeping the animation quick and snappy so there is no real delays experienced. You don't want to run up to a merc and be stuck in front of him doing some big 'ol badass move only to be shot to death by him or his partner while executing the move. But don't worry, with proper training it is easy to hit someone from 6 inches away just as hard as if you had cranked back for a big fat haymaker. You just follow through with your weight rotating from the hips to put your torso's weight into the blow - quick - snappy - effective. Close quarters combat is preferred and more realistic in a brutal do-or-die situation anyhow. Forget movies, forget martial arts, actual combat systems are direct, brutal, designed to be most effective inside the target's defensive range and immensely damaging. Spies don't use Karate in the field, they would lose ;)
Not to be offensive, but I really didn't understand that post. I can't tell what you are looking for. You want something quick, and has no delay. I understand that. But, you have to have some flash somewhere, where you make the player say, "Holy hell, that was pretty sweet." As I said before, even if it is just the elbow, it needs to look as if it actually hurt. It won't take longer, but having a step forwards coupled with a turning motion, for me at least, would make all the difference. That is why I thought a punch would look the best, because of the general nature of being farther away while punching.
A punch wouldn't look better. It would look like some drunk brawler at a bar fighting. Rather than someone who actually knows how to fight and use an elbow instead of your fist. The animation just needs to look a little more powerful, yes. That's about it.
Ok to simplify my previous post - A less detailed and quick animation is better than something that sacrifices quick recovery or makes your character look all retarded because your legs are running away while your arms do something fancy.
As soon as you hit the merc you are not going to be standing there admiring the pretty animation, you are going to either run, shock or nade.
Ubi Soft's animators actually did a damn good job of animating the spy. Even the elbow, it is quick with enough follow-through to give the impression of a powerful hit. A weak hit does not knock someone back like that nor does it continue through after the initial target contact.
So basically, if we choose to use an elbow it will look quite similar as we would not be copying ubi soft but rather copying the proper way to perform such a blow. There are a few small things that could be done to give a bigger impression of power but they are small things like stepping in raising up on the toes of the driving leg behind the blow. It's not much but it lends a lot to the appearance of a forceful blow.
We have some pretty good animators so I think everyone will be pleased with what they are producing ;)
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 16, 2008, 03:40:18 AM
it would be cool if the mercs lost like 8th or 16th of health too for each elbow, so if they get elbowed enough they would die lol ;D
Haha, I agree. Imagine, mercs getting bashed to death by spies (hey, at some point I think you're starting to feel dizzy when you keep getting elbowed in the face, right?), how hilarious :P
If it wasn't already, the tazer should also cause in loss of health, only a small amount (you're getting a shock afterall).
Half of your life is lost when you get hit by a tazer already. I'm not sure what it would do to the gameplay if you made elbows hurt mercs.
He means the Spy's tazer. So the Sticky Shocker.
Yeah, sounds good, but just make it so that the merc's health can't drop below 1/3, so it's not op.
Also, nice Thermal in the avatars you got guys. Can we get a clearer/ bigger picture?
I gotcha. And is that avatar just to mess with people's heads? I've made a sig with a guy that blinked randomly just to get people to go wtf? Did that guy just blink?
I guess a punch is not in the communities favor. I am fine with that. But I still think the animation needs to look cooler.
I know you say I won't be admiring the animation, but I don't listen closely to each sound, but it REALLY helps with the mood and atmosphere. Animation does the same.
Quote from: Ion.67 on January 17, 2008, 08:46:50 PM
I know you say I won't be admiring the animation, but I don't listen closely to each sound, but it REALLY helps with the mood and atmosphere. Animation does the same.
I agree, it does make a big difference when all of those elements come together. If we gave you high quality graphics, sound and game play then cheesed on some animations you would undoubtedly notice.
yea but you wont cheese it cause ur binary and ur awesome lol
I have to agree a punch doesn't look like it would fit a spy move. It should definitely be a elbow hit but maybe just animated differently. Maybe instead of a elbow slap the spy can do a elbow thrust into the Merc's face or maybe even a elbow thrust to the neck since that can be really lethal.
Yeah that's what I've been saying ion. Keep the elbow, just make it look better.
Elbows are one of the strongest standing fist moves you can do, next to a palm strike, and a spinning back hand. A spy's purpose is effiency, and a punch is too slow and weak. I would say either a knee, elbow, or headbut would do.
If devs and animators really wanted to go the extra mile they could make all of those moves. But they'd all have their ups and downs. Elbow would be a quick attack with a slower disorientating time than the other moves have. A knee would be the mid power attack with a little more time to peform. The headbutt would take a second to wind up but once you hit the merc he's disoriented for a good time. I'm just saying, it's probably not a great idea but whatever. If the devs wanted to give us more options that would be a good way to do it.
Headbut? Against someone wearing a helmet? You'd practically have to break your own skull to get through.
Have you ever done a headbutt? It's the crown of your head against their nose. Unless they are wear gladiator helmets, I don't think that theres a problem.
kick it like zidane XD
Kubanator is absolutely right, only attacks with small ways thus fast and your whole body weight behind it are really effective.
Why would you headbutt someone's actual head? :D That would daze you the same amount as them.
Imagine playing as merc and having a guy just pop out of the shadow and hive you a headbutt.
You would see his visor glow, the screen would get blurry and you'd just lose orientation.
Like the invisible guys in fear, they were just showing up out of nowhere and jumping on you, and you could see all the details on their faces and all.
If you're going to headbutt the merc, hes going to get quite stunned. That would call for an easy neck.
At least when wearing/using the gasmask, the mercs face is mostly covered.
It doesn't matter whether the mercs face is covered. It's a blunt force. It's just going to shove the mask into his face, creating the same effect.
And hurt the spy like hell.
If the spy hurts himself headbutting something, he's not a very good spy. An experianced fighter/physicst knows that if you hit a wide object with a wide object the force is spread evenly throught the face of the object. Lets assume that the spy can muster 200 pounds of force. Now this is reletively high, seeing as this is a fast maneuver, but nonetheless. Let's assume that the spies crown is 4 inches by 4 inches, which is about my size. That means there is 12.5 pounds of force per square inch. That sounds pretty painful. However, there is no way for the merc to be able to stand this, so he will roll with it. Rolling with it means the force of the blow is reduced, but he must move backwards. By rolling with it, the force is halved, giving you 6.25 pounds of force per square inch. But wait, the gas mask is also moving towards the mercs face, therfore the force is halved again giving you 3.125 pounds of force per square inch. That's not too bad now is it?
From the pictures I have seen, the gasmask looks sharp, as it has edges. I don't care how you look at it, but hitting a straight edge with your head is not the best idea in the world.
^ Ha, Agreed. I think a merc with a helmet and visor getting headbutted by a spy with material on his face isn't going to do much for the spy. What do you think the whole point of wearing helmets is!?
camouflage and protection.
The current visor that is glowing is just yelling: "HERE I AM AVOID ME", while it shouldn't if PS is aiming for realism.
QuoteFrom the pictures I have seen, the gasmask looks sharp, as it has edges. I don't care how you look at it, but hitting a straight edge with your head is not the best idea in the world.
Then logically, a punch would hurn even worse. The head is the hardest part of your body.
Kubanator is right once again. It's all unrealistic. Just forget it everyone. It doesn't matter. We should look past realism and just make an animation that looks fine. Preferably, the elbow needs to look a little more powerful than it does now.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 20, 2008, 07:14:57 PM
The current visor that is glowing is just yelling: "HERE I AM AVOID ME", while it shouldn't if PS is aiming for realism.
you actually did a good point here: what about only special vision modes creating a coloured glow?
I really don't think a security force would be wearing any kind of special suit or anything like that. They are protecting...whatever it is they are protecting, with brute force, not waiting for someone to come and take them out silently.
That is a factor that balances a few things. It doesn't matter if it is unrealistic or not. Mercs shouldn't be able to hide as well as spies and that's how it is. Mercs need to stand out somewhat. A good way to do that is to make their visors glow regardless of whether they are using visions or not.
Well, add this to the beta-test list :P
agreed visors should not glow when no visions are on. i also agree that mercs should not be able to hide as easy as spies. I was think maybe a clear visor that relects light so if they are in a dark corner you may still see a little white light where the visor is.
Yeah, but when there is no direct light the visor should be invisible.
agreed, when in light you should be able to see your own reflection in teh visor, ie your partner is using your bp you should be able to see your self in his visor and he should be able to see himself in your visor
Well, this would significantly decrease performance afaik, but if the spies would also reflect in the merc's visors in a useful manner, it could be worth the performance hit.
yes thats why i suggested it, possibly also if you are a spy u can see the reflection of your lights on the mercs visor in the dark, even tho the merc can't see the lights
Without visions, the merc probably has his flashlight/laser on so you can see him easily. No merc should be able to walk around with nothing on for long.
Not sure how this is going to work out in PS, but in CT, you had a hud, which could be contributed to the glowing. In PS, some information is going to be on the gun, but what are we going to do with health and other important information? That is why the visor should glow.
Mercenaries are highly advanced forces, and glowing masks and hi-tech weapons and gadgets show that.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 22, 2008, 07:17:28 PM
Well, this would significantly decrease performance afaik, but if the spies would also reflect in the merc's visors in a useful manner, it could be worth the performance hit.
How does one's reflection in a visor inhibit his/her performance?
Well, if you have the merc, you should have all the environment around him reflect too, including spies.
Realtime reflection? I doubt it.
Quote from: Kok4f4n on January 22, 2008, 09:16:04 PM
Well, if you have the merc, you should have all the environment around him reflect too, including spies.
This really inhibits everything the merc does............................................
how come ATM the devs cant make users see different textures in visions yet they can make different players see different models? Aren't they essentially the same thing? (obviously textures and models aren't the same thing, I mean the technique to do it)
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 22, 2008, 09:43:12 PM
This really inhibits everything the merc does............................................
He said performance which I take it as computer performance as in lower frames per second because of reflections.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 22, 2008, 09:48:52 PM
how come ATM the devs cant make users see different textures in visions yet they can make different players see different models?
We can? And wrong thread.
Quote from: Tidenburg on January 22, 2008, 09:48:52 PM
how come ATM the devs cant make users see different textures in visions yet they can make different players see different models? Aren't they essentially the same thing? (obviously textures and models aren't the same thing, I mean the technique to do it)
As far as I can gather, they can do it but the technique would be prone to cheating.
Quote from: Overstatement on January 22, 2008, 09:57:50 PM
He said performance which I take it as computer performance as in lower frames per second because of reflections.
I don't really think the fps is going to drastically drop because the color of the visor is different or it can reflected (i.e Metroid Prime - You can see the chicks face the entire time as a reflection, yet the performance is the same.).
Because Gamecube has a pretty good g-card (something from ati, kind of gf6800), and works on locked 35 (6?) fps.