In this topic I will discuss the various melee/stances moves the spies and mercs should preform. Be aware that this is not official, and is only made using my knowledge of the martial arts, and weaponry.
Spies
1. Standing, No Movement
Headbutt
Why?: Because the headbutt relies on the snapping movement of your spine, and the crown of your forehead striking on the nose. If done properly, it can incapacitate a person. However, seeing as mercs have undergone military training, it is fair to assume that they can handle it, and therfore are only stunned.
2. Standing, Slow Walk
Elbow
Why?: Because the elbow increases in strength if a step is taken while preforming it, and it does not take a long time to preform. Since it uses the strength of your whole body, it is also very powerful.
3. Standing, Running
Flying Knee
Why?: Since the flying knee requires momentum, it is ideal that it is done from a running position. It strikes directly to the abdomen, and would have a knockback effect similar to the elbow. The spy however, does not need to jump to preform this, and instead can simply run into the merc.
4. Crouching, No Movement
Rising Palm
Why?: The rising palm strikes directly to the bottom of the chin, allowing it to requiring no forward momentum. It also allows for a quick escape and uses the whole body to strike.
5. Crouching, Slow Walk
Rising Elbow
Why?: The rising elbow requires slight amounts of forward momentum, to create the diagnol upward strike nessasary to twist the head. This would make the merc very disoriented, as his brain and mervous system would be shook (sp?)up.
6. Crouching, Running
Rising Elbow into Abdomen
Why?: Because while a rising elbow would preform marvoulously, you would need to rise about 1m away if you wanted to maintain momentum. This however, allows you to wait till you are within elbow's reach to rise.
7. Standing, Merc Crouching
Knee
Why?: Because a knee to the face is a instantanous knock out.
8. Grab, Lethal
Neck Snap
Why?: It requires minimal time, it silent, and is a guaranteed kill if done correctly.
9. Grab, Non-Lethal
Rear Naked Choke
Why?: While the strike the Chaos Theory was quick, it allowed for little options. With a choke, you can decide how long they will be knocked out for. However, if speed is what you are after, you could always add a Knifehand to the back of the head as another option.
10. Ledge Grab
Ledge Grab
Why?: While the animation is fine, the insta-death is not. Falling 2 feet will not kill you. Perhaps if the ledge is less than a 8 foot drop you survive, otherwise you die.
Mercanaries
1. Charge
Running with gun pointing forward
Why?: Because as anyone who is trained with guns knows, you always point the gun where to intend to aim, not randomly pointing to side. The running animation should look like the Gears of War roadie run, except with the gun pointing forward.
2. Charge, Striking
Twisting Strike
Why?: Because it uses the maximum force possible, while still maintaining balance and ability to stop.
3. Berserk
Berserk
Why?: It is fine the way it is, except for one thing. The merc should not be capable of jumping after preforming the maneuver, and instead should have to regain his balance.
4. Spy Lying on Ground, Kill
Knife to Throat
Why?: While the smack to face is acceptable, there is no guarantee of death, as there is not enough force to guarantee a neck snap. Also, anyone carrying a a high powered rifle will carry a knife, in case he needs it.
5. Sniper Stance
Sniper Stance
Why?: This is entirely fine the way it is.
New Additions
1. Gun at Shoulder
Gun at Shoulder
Why?: Any educated shooter will know that while fighting, shooting at the hip is ineffectual. But by doing this, you limit your view, and slow your movement speed, as running and shooting will completely throw you off balance.
2. Gun at Hip
Gun at Hip
Why?: While inaccurate, having your gun at your hip increases your view, and allows you to run faster, as firing will not throw off balance.
wooo!! nice post, all sounds good to me :D
Just get us another animator ;D
YEah, or 5 more animators lol It all sounds good to me. Plus realism isn't bad.
I can make more universal combat maneuvers if you want, it's just I thought it would be far cooler if the spy acted like a spy would.
Quote from: frvge on January 20, 2008, 02:54:02 AM
Just get us another animator ;D
im sure goodkebab can do it all ;)
Quote from: FusionSlayer on January 20, 2008, 06:30:49 AM
Quote from: frvge on January 20, 2008, 02:54:02 AM
Just get us another animator ;D
im sure goodkebab can do it all ;)
As far as I know, Goodkebab isn't even the animator...
That is a nice list. Is it too realistic?
It's total realism, based on the fact that these are the moves I would preform if they have to be fast, strong, and short (Meaning minimal movement). I do not understand what you mean by too realistic.
For the game. Can it be programmed to match all of this well? Are there better moves? Its really up to the devs if they can implement it all to work well.
The thing is that all of these moves can be put within the same animation time, making it completely balanced. Also, different levels of stun can be put on different animations, reward people who ambush as opposed to aggro.
And as for better moves, there are a few different moves, but niether is better than the other. For example, the walking elbow could be replaced with a palm strike or a knee, but a knee requires that you are closer, and a palm strike has a longer range, making it look awkward when the spy is forced to move closer, and makes the player feel less immersed in the game world.
good stuff....very well thought out list. great explanation of the logistics for each. this will be very helpful for the animation process of melee and will certainly be referenced and taken into account.
as for as which moves/actions will actually be used, how they will be implemented (or altered), and the effect each will have on the opponent in-game...is of course contingent on gameplay functionality, the balancing of character classes, etc. (as you mentioned) and tweaked from there. But i think the actions you purposed are great, and provide the exact detail and comprehension needed for animating. ;)
Thanks for sharing, Kubanator ...great post 8)
the importance of gun positioning and influence is an interesting aspect to explore. (i'm not sure if that's been brought up or addressed yet...i dont think so) ...but could come into play as a variable for class balancing if needed...idk
but rather than viewing it like... hip vs shoulder (placement) is to stability vs accuracy, maybe it could be speed vs accuracy. or easier to taken down (or do more melee damage) to an opponent with the gun at shoulder position.
what i do know is...the "knife to throat" animation makes me smile. ;D
limikkin, could you tell us what part of animating process is done now ?
I think that has not been discussed yet. Do you guys think that there should be an option to make a partial zoom, like in cod ? Bullets would not be as deadly as when you go into sniper zoom but the accuracy would be better - with possiblity to shoot slow full auto or burst.
i agree with kubanator 100%, good job dude ;)
the only unrealistic move remaining would be berserk, which could be made more realistic against jumping with a more vertical spin over the head.
imo you shouldn't hit much shooting out of the hip without using the laser.
@limmikin: there are no different character classes in svm. it would be really awesome if you take the time to implement kubanator's suggestion.
The purpose of beserk is to stop spies from jumping on you, and it does that by spinning, which prevents the spy from being able to target a specific part of the body. Remember, after you start a jump, it's hard to change your trajectory.
You are right Kubanator. But the problem is even if the spy couldn't target a specific body part, he would still land on the merc and knock him over. Regardless of if he is spinning or not.
True enough. The only difference would be that the spies feet would get caught up in the mercs arms and he would land on his back. If you wanted a proper counter, you could have the merc swing his gun above him.
I've suggested many alternatives in the "instead of berserk" thread awhile back. I think the best solution is just to make his arms go up a little higher.
he could duck in cover, with his arms above his head, and sort of using his gun as a block
This wouldn't knock down spies around him. Lol imagine the merc doing that and then the spy is just like "wtf is this guy doing?" then he grabs him.
Well, it's very hard to actually stop someone from landing on you. You would either have to avoid it, or redirect it.
You could spin around, and have the merc grab the spies leg if he tries jumping on him.
The only real problem I have with some of those are the knee and headbutt(The standing ones). From my own martial arts experience to make those effective to any great degree you need to have a hold on your target in some way or be EXTREMELY close. One other thing is that a couple of these seem to require specific targets like the elbow to the abdomen. These animations can't honestly require a target like that since they could be done from a variety of angles. I say keep the moves aim at the head in general since that would look like it would keep a persistent knock-back. Otherwise your gonna have animations where knees are thrown to the ribcage and that would look like a blow that would double someone over sintead of push them back.
But the list is great those are just my personal qualms with it. But of course animation wise the team may not feel like adding in that many animations due to the sheer amount of work I am sure it will take.
Well, a knee to the side would stun the muscles below your ribs, and an attack on the back would be a grab by default. And with a headbutt, a hit to the side of the jaw would probably break it.
A knee to someone's side would double them over not to mention the only way to ensure a good deal of damage from a knee would be to hold your target while you attack otherwise it lacks the speed the truly do any significant damage. And a headbutt to the side of the head is extremely awkward if you are trying to reach your head over the opponent's should to hit his head. Both are really mainly used when an opponent's movement is restricted (When they are either on the ground or in a grapple). Otherwise the moves look foolish and diminish in effectiveness. It is best to stay with strikes from the arms when standing. Animation wise they would be easiest since they don't need any special stances on the targets part for them to not look foolish. And the moves need atleast some amount of range. Neither a headbutt or a knee have much range at all. You need to be flush against a target for them to practically work without holding the person. I say stick with arm and leg strikes from a standing position they give speedy animation and a good range.
I still stand by my idea of defense for a spy jumping a merc. The merc should grab him mid-air and slam his as to the ground. As opposed to the berserk. If PS keeps the berserk, then when the merc does actually berserk, he should get knocked out too. Come on now....the spy is jumping him. So he just swings his arms and body around....KOs the spy....but is fine. At least have his health go down.
People noted though that the problem with those animations is that it is difficult to properly sync both characters.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 28, 2008, 06:32:10 AM
I still stand by my idea of defense for a spy jumping a merc. The merc should grab him mid-air and slam his as to the ground. As opposed to the berserk. If PS keeps the berserk, then when the merc does actually berserk, he should get knocked out too. Come on now....the spy is jumping him. So he just swings his arms and body around....KOs the spy....but is fine. At least have his health go down.
But what if one spy is trying to jump him and one is trying to grab him?
Exactly Cyntrox. We have to think of things that will knock down spies that are BOTH around him and on top of him.
Quote from: Cyntrox on January 28, 2008, 03:47:02 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 28, 2008, 06:32:10 AM
I still stand by my idea of defense for a spy jumping a merc. The merc should grab him mid-air and slam his as to the ground. As opposed to the berserk. If PS keeps the berserk, then when the merc does actually berserk, he should get knocked out too. Come on now....the spy is jumping him. So he just swings his arms and body around....KOs the spy....but is fine. At least have his health go down.
But what if one spy is trying to jump him and one is trying to grab him?
The merc should be able to grab the jumping spy and toss him into the spy trying to grab him.
@Psychic: I know the animations would be very complicated. I'm simply saying that its the most logical approach. If it doesn't happen I won't cry....maybe
Westfall, what if there is no spy above him? He'll have nothing to grab and swing around. Again, an animation that would affect both the spies around him and above him at the same time, or individually, would be the only logical counter.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 28, 2008, 08:07:04 PM
Westfall, what if there is no spy above him? He'll have nothing to grab and swing around. Again, an animation that would affect both the spies around him and above him at the same time, or individually, would be the only logical counter.
Not if he were a properly trained merc. There would be another counter move. Some sort of a grabbing of the spies arm and flipping him over your back so he lands back to ground facing you.
What the merc could do is spin around and attempt to grab anyone nearby. If they jump on hyim, he should throw them to the ground. If they try grabbing him, he should either turn and throw them to the ground, or do this
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.htm
QuoteA knee to someone's side would double them over not to mention the only way to ensure a good deal of damage from a knee would be to hold your target while you attack otherwise it lacks the speed the truly do any significant damage.
If you run into someone, you have about your weight in force. Now if you apply all of that force into one point, I don't think that there would be a need to grab them.Plus, mercanaries are wearing body armor, and are likely trained to withstand pain, so I doubt they would double over.
QuoteAnd a headbutt to the side of the head is extremely awkward if you are trying to reach your head over the opponent's shoulder to hit his head. Both are really mainly used when an opponent's movement is restricted (When they are either on the ground or in a grapple).
Elbows and knees are both moves for real fights. In a martial arts studio, you will not use elbows, for the simple fact that they are too damaging. In a real fight, it is very advantegeous to move in with your elbow, as an elbow will always break the nose, which ends the fight.
QuoteOtherwise the moves look foolish and diminish in effectiveness. It is best to stay with strikes from the arms when standing. Animation wise they would be easiest since they don't need any special stances on the targets part for them to not look foolish.
Wouldn't it look rather awkward if a spy suddenly stopped moving to preform a punch?
QuoteAnd the moves need atleast some amount of range. Neither a headbutt or a knee have much range at all. You need to be flush against a target for them to practically work without holding the person.
Why do they need range? All the spy needs is powerful, fast, and efficient moves to preform. Knees actually have more range than an elbow, and an elbow works fine in CT, so what's the problem?
QuoteI say stick with arm and leg strikes from a standing position they give speedy animation and a good range.
The spy purpose is speed and efficiency. While a punch is an effective way of striking, it is weaker than an elbow, slower than an elbow, and is easy to block or avoid. Same with kicks compared to knees. This spy is not intending to fight for more than 2 seconds, the only reason to use a punch over a elbow is range, but since a spy is able to close a punching distance in less than 0.2 seconds, there is no point.
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 29, 2008, 01:55:09 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 28, 2008, 08:07:04 PM
Westfall, what if there is no spy above him? He'll have nothing to grab and swing around. Again, an animation that would affect both the spies around him and above him at the same time, or individually, would be the only logical counter.
Not if he were a properly trained merc. There would be another counter move. Some sort of a grabbing of the spies arm and flipping him over your back so he lands back to ground facing you.
In CT you don't always know where you hit the spy down. If he always landed in front of you then spies would have NO chance of getting up and away. Even if you partner gassed and flashed him.
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 29, 2008, 02:58:31 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on January 29, 2008, 01:55:09 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on January 28, 2008, 08:07:04 PM
Westfall, what if there is no spy above him? He'll have nothing to grab and swing around. Again, an animation that would affect both the spies around him and above him at the same time, or individually, would be the only logical counter.
Not if he were a properly trained merc. There would be another counter move. Some sort of a grabbing of the spies arm and flipping him over your back so he lands back to ground facing you.
In CT you don't always know where you hit the spy down. If he always landed in front of you then spies would have NO chance of getting up and away. Even if you partner gassed and flashed him.
Good point. Then again, there have been times where, when you get slapped, you lag onto another side of the wall (aka around the corner). If you are going to act stealthy, then you should be able to play the role properly. Otherwise, good luck fucking with a highly trained merc.
If the merc can't find the spy, then he shouldn't be able to kill him. Purposely falling behind the merc when you are berserked is totally stealthy lol. Seriously though, you will never get away again if this was in the game. I must admit though that it would be totally badass.