I think it would be a good idea if bullet placed near camnet showed merc using it on spy's radar. He could be visible for up to 1-2 secs after.
Also snares could somehow affect camnet. As I remember, during the discussion over camnet, someone said that every camera could have its "loading time" when you switch to it. Perhaps snares placed near these cams could increase that time.
i don't think there should be a loading time, but maybe snares could disturb the picture or make the cam move like on dope. it would also be fun making it easier to "blind" camnet with "addys" (stickys lolz) like increasing the thickness of the smoke or making an effect like the fire extinguisher on the merc's hud dunno.
what i really do like is the idea of bullets placed at cams showing the position of the merc using camnet and also showing when this certain camnet is used. it's just beautiful :o
Whatever happened to the idea of a spy having an electronic scrambler on his gun? He could point it at the camnet in a certain room and it could scramble it....though it would be a dead giveaway. It could still get spies by cameras, mines, traps, sound detectors.
yea like in SP that would be cool, and usefull on lights too :D
Wasn't that like the OP scrambler or something? Idk I haven't played SP in a while. But I say yes to bullets/snares/cams having its own unique effect on cameras.
Bullets - Show merc's position on your radar for however long he uses the camnet. (nice boost for bullets)
Snares - Make the cam's screen flash black rapidly.
Cams - Like Gawain said, they would produce a gassy film on the camera's lens (blinding the cam user from using the camera)
ss - I'm not sure if it should disable it or not. Security cams it should definitely be able to disable, but not camnet cams.
chaff - Disable it?
I don't think anything else should be able to weaken it. That would just be too big of a nerf for camnet, but I like the bullets,snares, and stickies suggestions. Good ideas guys!
Camnet cameras are usually placed far from the ground so the ocp scrambler would have to have very high range
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII like it ;) (2 stealthy thumbs up and a toe ) , cause Im tired of spies not having any defense to camnet whores
Maybe this could bring a new element to the gameplay...
IF there were bullets and OCP Scramblers which would jam Camnet cameras, and a merc found that one of the cameras had been jammed, it could be either because:
a) a spy IS jamming it at the very moment
b) a spy SHOT a bullet to jam that camera (which has a determined period of effect)
Now, it would be up to the merc to decide what to do: go to the jammed camera's location and search for the spy OR assume that was due to the bullet that the camera was jammed, and move on with his routine.
Ready? Set? Discuss ;D
Me likes.
Maybe you could give spies OCP bullets for their ss as a gadget? They would have an unlimited amount but they use up the battery like a regular ss shot would. The OCP bullets would disable the mercs hud completely and scramble his visions. These bullets would disable electronics like mines, traps, and cameras. Instead of blowing up a mine like a regular ss would, it would just disable it. It still bleeps and flashes red like a regular mine would but it just doesn't blow up. That way a merc thinks that the mine is still working but it's really not.
It would be like an alternative to using chaff, although it would have its own unique uses.
It works like a regular ss shot but they would be much more powerful. idk just thinking some stuff up.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
What about a scrambler Spek? It can scramble the camnet because there are high places you can get to. It might be a giveaway as to the scrambler's spot, but the scrambler can work on the other security devices. Would really maybe even be an optional chaff, b/c u can move around with it like hb sensor.
That would be cool if you had just one or two jammers, but you could pick it up and move it if you wanted. But the downside is that while holding it your visions would be disabled. Maybe you could make this only disable cams and visions?
Anyone got anything to say about my OCP bullet suggestion?
i know this is a discussion topic, but i'd like a word from the producers... lol
maybe one of them could tell us if they're open for suggestions or something...
I definately see some good and interesting ideas here :)
Well, we've discussed camnet, ocp and other things but we haven't done it with other gadgets and this is the reason I created this topic :) Perhaps we should focus on bullets and snares (and something new?) and not go through all discussed matters.
Like I said previously, if there were Bullets and OCP Scramblers, they would allow new possibilities and situations that would improve overall gameplay; They would create distractions and confuse the Mercs, allowing the Spies to complete their objectives faster and easier.
What about 'Spy bullets' that disable any electronics in... 5 meter radius, including camnet, excluding objectives?
Quote from: frvge on February 04, 2008, 10:54:09 PM
What about 'Spy bullets' that disable any electronics in... 5 meter radius, including camnet, excluding objectives?
Im aggreeing with anything that involves chaffing without using ss or chaffs.
yes i think a chaff bullet would be sweet, approx same length of time as a spy bullet, maybe shorter if planted directly on a merc, 5 min with no visions would suck ...
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
New gadget functions are fine, but from a pure improvement of gameplay function what is suggested here is one of the best solutions to preventing a camera network from becoming overpowered.
There is no need to waste Decoys and ARMs on a camera when you should just be able to shock it and knock it out for a few seconds.
No visions and good camo will provide ample opportunity to bypass the cameras as well.
P.S. We have provided you with the gadget names, couldn't hurt to use them as this isn't SCCT or SCPT ;)
Edit: Some sort of EM Bullet might prove to be an interesting addition but perhaps a little powerful if used on a Merc. I think a headshot should be the only way to prevent vision or scope use for an extended time period. Takes a little extra time to make sure you got the shot and you get a reward. A bullet is to easy. It could be useful for keeping a camera or a laser disabled for an extended period of time though.
Quote from: frvge on February 04, 2008, 10:54:09 PM
What about 'Spy bullets' that disable any electronics in... 5 meter radius, including camnet, excluding objectives?
I don't think bullets should do this. Spies have chaffs and they should use them for disabling.
When merc is on patrol and he sees "security failure" its easier for him when he sees chaffy things flying around. Spy can ofc shoot everything manually but it takes time and produces sound. Now imagine that he could disable everything with just one shot. It would imo encourage aggro and be overpowered.
Snares can also be used to trigger the alarm by shooting them close to security device. This is used hardly ever because it launches alarm few times and merc usually sees the snare near the device and knows easily that its a trap. What I suggest is to:
1.slightly increase the radius of snare causing alarm when shot near device, so its not that easily spotted
2. Snare should trigger the alarm only once and then, after alarm is over, disappear.
3. Spy should be able to destroy the snare manually from the distance and thanks to it, stop the alarm instantly, so when he i.e. sets a trap for a merc and then neutralizes him, he doesn't have to wait till the end of alarm to start hacking. Now, he has to do it, which is unfair, cause he didn't start the alarm because of his mistake or fault.
QuoteThere is no need to waste Decoys and ARMs on a camera when you should just be able to shock it and knock it out for a few seconds.
I don't agree with this and what Spekkio said. You shouldn't be able to netraulize camnet camera just by shooting it. It is a gadget, not just simple camera and when you sacrifice one gadget spot, you deserve something better than just rubbish thing that can become useless because of simple shocker, which is a part of equipment of
every spy
Quote from: frvge on February 04, 2008, 10:54:09 PM
What about 'Spy bullets' that disable any electronics in... 5 meter radius, including camnet, excluding objectives?
Like the OCP bullet I suggested a few posts back? I don't think it should have a radius. With a bullet you should have to hit the device directly, or within a small radius of like 6 inches or so. Chaff should disable all electronics within a large radius, not a small bullet.
Take a look back at my post because I think an OCP bullets would be great for gameplay as a new gadget.
I agree with Neth.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
i'm vehemently against the ability to shoot it out. it makes camnet not only quite weak with tons of map designs, but also quite weak against aggro. one of the interesting things with camnet is to help your mate when he's in trouble especially if he's unsure if there are both spies in his area so this would take out one of the core uses of camnet that actually require/reward teamplay.
after thinking on it for a while i don't think giving gadgets more features is the right way to go. if a gadget is too weak, improve its specific ability, for instance lower the snare shooting noise and make the noises slightely less frequent.
what could get interesting is a gadget that allows disabling electronics, hacking etc from distance. it may sound unbalanced, but could get quite balanced with certain restrictions. how about that:
-range 20m
-allows disabling of mines/security/etc (only) while aiming at them not creating any security alerts, working through walls
-hacking laptops: speed dependant on distance, 1m=>75%, 10m=>50%, 20m=>25% of hacking speed without it
-hacking merc's visions/radar/security break messages etc for 10s without him knowing after aiming 4s at him
-giving you information on the merc's health, equipment instantly when aiming at him
-the gadget drains quite some energy (making camo+this not op for stealth players), like only usable for 10s with full energy
-you appear on emf using it
it actually sounds quite balanced to me considering that you only get 5s normal hacking time with it from 10m distance after which you have drown all your energy. it has also some other advantages:
-with a gadget like this, we can remove the ability of chaff to work through walls (maybe increase the radius to compensate, especially the vertical one)
-totally new stealth teamplay possibilities
-...
this may actually sound weird coming from someone like me, but with enough balance work this could be the improvement we learned from scda. i also think a presence detector could work if it's implemented in a balanced way...
-
Quote from: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 12:35:27 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
i'm vehemently against the ability to shoot it out. it makes camnet not only quite weak with tons of map designs, but also quite weak against aggro. one of the interesting things with camnet is to help your mate when he's in trouble especially if he's unsure if there are both spies in his area so this would take out one of the core uses of camnet that actually require/reward teamplay.
after thinking on it for a while i don't think giving gadgets more features is the right way to go. if a gadget is too weak, improve its specific ability, for instance lower the snare shooting noise and make the noises slightely less frequent.
what could get interesting is a gadget that allows disabling electronics, hacking etc from distance. it may sound unbalanced, but could get quite balanced with certain restrictions. how about that:
-range 20m
-allows disabling of mines/security/etc (only) while aiming at them not creating any security alerts, working through walls
-hacking laptops: speed dependant on distance, 1m=>75%, 10m=>50%, 20m=>25% of hacking speed without it
-hacking merc's visions/radar/security break messages etc for 10s without him knowing after aiming 4s at him
-giving you information on the merc's health, equipment instantly when aiming at him
-the gadget drains quite some energy (making camo+this not op for stealth players), like only usable for 10s with full energy
-you appear on emf using it
it actually sounds quite balanced to me considering that you only get 5s normal hacking time with it from 10m distance after which you have drown all your energy. it has also some other advantages:
-with a gadget like this, we can remove the ability of chaff to work through walls (maybe increase the radius to compensate, especially the vertical one)
-totally new stealth teamplay possibilities
-...
this may actually sound weird coming from someone like me, but with enough balance work this could be the improvement we learned from scda. i also think a presence detector could work if it's implemented in a balanced way...
-
Kind of like a scrambler on the spy's gun. I don't think it should be able to hack. The spy should have to hack manually.....not set-up a laptop in the vent above the objective, connect to the objective wirelessly, click a button, and have it hack. That is the thing I disliked about DA. You could eat bits an pieces off, which was cool, but how does your glove retain the information hacked?
I think we need to start thinking of a new style of SvM, where (when time runs out) objectives blow up. This creates more purpose as to why spies are hacking these terminals that some random mercenaries are covering. The terminals are bombs, the mercs are making sure everything goes accordingly, and the spies are the outside resistance.
oh i don't think that hacking objectives should be possible through walls, but disabling mines/traps should be. a vent next to an objective is bad map design anyways (as are many vents)...
Quote from: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 12:44:01 AM
oh i don't think that hacking objectives should be possible through walls, but disabling mines/traps should be. a vent next to an objective is bad map design anyways (as are many vents)...
LOL...yea they are. I'm for disabling traps/mines through walls. The thing is, a chaff nade shouldn't be able to pass through walls. Ideas?
new thought, on chaff bullet, what if every 30sec? the bullet shoots of a new round of chaff, so that the mercs can see the chaff, also it would be able to shoot out, chaff would go off when the bullet hits too, the only dif between this and chaff nade is that if they dont find it it keeps going off and it can be used as a good distraction. know what i mean?
No one has anything to say about my OCP bullet idea?
Making a new gadget for the specific purpose of countering camnet is fucking stupid. What happens when the merc doesn't take camnet? Uh oh, you have a useless item.
Allowing the spies to shoot it out wouldn't be too bad at all. What I'm envisioning is that the merc can still select the camera, but he sees static. If you want to imagine it in current terms, let's say a spy shoots out the cam in MH in factory. Well, you know a spy was there, but you don't know exactly where he was heading. Besides, he's only got 10 seconds to get where he's gotta be ... not exactly a cakewalk. If need be, you can give a short invulnerability time to the device after it's shocked once, but I don't think that would be necessary.
Camnet against aggro spies??? That's the most bullshit theorycraft I've ever heard. You don't use camnet against aggro spies because 1) you know where they are and 2) you don't have the time.
it's useless against full aggro, but good to help your mate in unclear situations. i think a better camo suit and no special visions (+ darker map layout) is sufficient. camnet balance mainly depends on the map design anyways. with a hologram device like i suggested in the glove-like gadget thread you could also trick out a camnet user or focus aggro on the one with camnet after easily identifying him.
I've used camnet against aggro spies. You can pinpoint their exact location with the laser, it helps a lot, for example for your teammate to launch a grenade if a spy is not in his line of sight.
Quote from: Gawain on February 05, 2008, 02:29:04 PM
it's useless against full aggro, but good to help your mate in unclear situations. i think a better camo suit and no special visions (+ darker map layout) is sufficient. camnet balance mainly depends on the map design anyways. with a hologram device like i suggested in the glove-like gadget thread you could also trick out a camnet user or focus aggro on the one with camnet after easily identifying him.
Ok, so if the spies shoot out the camera in the same room as your teammate, he can't say (or type) "both here"? I seriously don't get how or why you'd be using camnet in this situation. If you've ever played the map(s) without camnet, you can certainly figure out where the spies are and where they probably are going even if they shot out the camera.
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 05, 2008, 02:47:32 PM
I've used camnet against aggro spies. You can pinpoint their exact location with the laser, it helps a lot, for example for your teammate to launch a grenade if a spy is not in his line of sight.
Then those aggro spies must not be very good. The whole point of aggroing is to single out and double team a merc and then scatter to a far off objective if his teammate comes to help. When you're sitting there like a tool pointing a laser at them, you're just asking for your teammate to get necked.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 02:18:12 PM
Making a new gadget for the specific purpose of countering camnet is fucking stupid. What happens when the merc doesn't take camnet? Uh oh, you have a useless item.
Allowing the spies to shoot it out wouldn't be too bad at all. What I'm envisioning is that the merc can still select the camera, but he sees static. If you want to imagine it in current terms, let's say a spy shoots out the cam in MH in factory. Well, you know a spy was there, but you don't know exactly where he was heading. Besides, he's only got 10 seconds to get where he's gotta be ... not exactly a cakewalk. If need be, you can give a short invulnerability time to the device after it's shocked once, but I don't think that would be necessary.
Camnet against aggro spies??? That's the most bullshit theorycraft I've ever heard. You don't use camnet against aggro spies because 1) you know where they are and 2) you don't have the time.
Wtf. If you even read the post you would know it's not JUST FOR CAMNET. It disables everything else basically. Go read it again ffs.
@papa: a jammer bullet is just stupid.
@spekkio: i'm well aware that watching your mate getting his ass kicked with camnet isn't exactly gonna be helpful. but in all those situions when your teammate isn't sure if there is one spy or both, or whenever two play aggro and your mate needs to know where one of them went it helps a lot if you spend 1 or 2 seconds gathering information before coming for help. for instance, in cafe (museum) camnet helps a lot to decide whether to come to the same side your mate is or to the other side or to better stay close to the double doors (from elevator). it also helps to see where an aggro player plants the bomb... aggro can also use snares so that it's easier to locate them with camnet.
@Gawain: Why? Elaborate
@Spekkio: Gawain is right, it can help both mercs if just one is using it.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 05, 2008, 02:18:12 PM
let's say a spy shoots out the cam in MH in factory.
Before merc gets there and guesses where the shots were from (IF he guesses), spy will be on the other end of map, hacking the objective. This example shows how neutralizing camnet by shooting it, would make this gadget totally useless.
It takes 45 sec minimum to go from MH to an objective in the another room unless you take corridor B and the first camera is perfectly lined up for you to run through at the moment you open the door. If it takes you 45 sec to respond to a security failure, well, I don't know what to tell you then. Your example is retarded.
@Gawain: Well, this is where communication between mercs becomes important. Your partner shouldn't really have a problem taking on one spy by himself.
Besides that, let's say that the spies do split up in museum and shoot out both inner and outer cafe. Using camnet, that's a dead giveaway that they're not together, so you shouldn't have much of a problem figuring out where to cover. However, I would think that the spies simply won't have the time to do that if they're working on splitting the mercs up like that.
Seriously, you guys are acting like camnet is this omfg wtf important gadget where the mercs would be completely blind if it were disabled for 10 seconds. Considering that quite a few people don't bother with camnet and are still successful, this isn't the case at all. The fact that you'd be able to tell which camera was shot would be enough to figure out the general location of the spies most of the time.
Smart spytraps > camnet.
i think removing special visions and boosting camo is sufficient. no need for further nerfing of camnet, especially not for more aggressive players. in fact, it would totally turn around the camnet power: atm it's quite strong in big rooms, but after this it will be strong in small rooms.
Yea, but why should you have to take a specific gadget to counter another gadget? That's stupid. With my proposal, shooting out the camera helps, but it's not the best counter because the mercs will still have a decent idea of where you are. Camo would be a better solution, but it's by no means necessary.
Like I said, camnet doesn't really play much of a factor for aggressive players. They're playing on the fact that they can get to places before the mercs can, and not the fact that you don't know where they're going. Aggro is the only counter to camnet right now because the mercs don't have the time to look through it, so I don't see how this would really affect anything in regards to aggro players. Personally, if I have camnet and find myself against an aggro team, I also find myself wishing we had double backpack for extra mines.
As far as big rooms vs. small rooms, it'd still be useful in big rooms if it can be shot out. First, we're only talking a short period of deactivation. Second, it takes much longer for a spy to navigate through a large room, so you still know where his vicinity.
You complain a lot about making mercs have to actually look for spies, and now you're against a solution that would do just that.
Aside from that, there's no reason the mercs should be able to have a gadget with infinite use that sees everything and cannot be disabled except when he decides not to look through it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the potential for imbalance there, and it makes the game exceptionally boring when a merc just stands in a corner cycling through cameras until he sees a spy.
Should there be a security failure when its knocked out?
spekkio is right, no specific gadget (camo) should be needed to bypass camnet. he's also right that it takes more time to cross a big room than a small one. probably the easiest solution is the best anyways. so i guess it's all about finding the right timer settings so that shooting out camnet becomes an interesting choice but not a good one in most situations.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 12:03:35 AM
Yea, but why should you have to take a specific gadget to counter another gadget? That's stupid.
K, lets remove gas mask and introduce breath holding.
Tazed camnet = useless camnet in most cases.
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 06, 2008, 12:15:36 AM
Should there be a security failure when its knocked out?
Sure, if necessary, but I don't see how seeing the static by looking through it would be that difficult.
Look: to shoot out the camnet, the spy has to draw the gun (makes noise), shoot at the cam (also makes noise), then get to where he's gotta be in a very short period of time (makes noise if he's got to go a long distance). I really don't see how camnet is going to be "useless" in this situation. You'll know what room the spy was in last. You'll know where he can go from there, you'll know what map security he has to shoot out or bypass, and, depending on how far he has to go, you might here him running.
Yea, Museum is kind of a tossup because there's like no security in the whole goddamn map. But let's assume the PS map makers strike a better balance between PT fortresses and CT run around freely maps, kk?
QuoteK, lets remove gas mask and introduce breath holding.
Well, I've said it many times: I don't think that gadgets should hard counter each other. It creates a dumb pre-match guessing game.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 06, 2008, 12:15:36 AM
Should there be a security failure when its knocked out?
Sure, if necessary, but I don't see how seeing the static by looking through it would be that difficult.
It wouldn't, but you may not be using camnet all of the time. So you may not even know its out to begin with. I don't think there should be one.
Well, the whole point of camnet is that you're supposed to activate it to get its benefit. If you're going to give a security out, why not also have camnet automatically find spies for you? (that was sarcastic, obviously).
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 02:46:17 AM
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 06, 2008, 12:15:36 AM
Should there be a security failure when its knocked out?
Sure, if necessary, but I don't see how seeing the static by looking through it would be that difficult.
Look: to shoot out the camnet, the spy has to draw the gun (makes noise), shoot at the cam (also makes noise), then get to where he's gotta be in a very short period of time (makes noise if he's got to go a long distance). I really don't see how camnet is going to be "useless" in this situation. You'll know what room the spy was in last. You'll know where he can go from there, you'll know what map security he has to shoot out or bypass, and, depending on how far he has to go, you might here him running.
Hold on, you may know all that - new players probably won't. We can't design it so that only die hard fans that play 24/7 have a chance.
Besides, you can draw also your gun silently, so that doesn't have to make noise. ;)
QuoteHold on, you may know all that - new players probably won't. We can't design it so that only die hard fans that play 24/7 have a chance.
It doesn't take a diehard fan playing 24/7 to learn the map. Hell, wtf do you do when you don't take camnet? Run around in circles aimlessly until you lose?
Part of the game's fun factor is using your head to figure out what the spies are doing.
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 06, 2008, 04:33:45 PM
Besides, you can draw also your gun silently, so that doesn't have to make noise. ;)
yeah without the laser which makes it harder to aim (or can it be activated silently afterwards?). but this makes absolutely no difference because firing ss always makes a pretty loud noise.
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 06, 2008, 04:33:45 PM
Hold on, you may know all that - new players probably won't. We can't design it so that only die hard fans that play 24/7 have a chance.
it's not that you can't play successfully without camnet. camnet shouldn't be a no-brainer, you gotta learn when to use it, where to look with it, etc. it's no a basic game mechanics you need to be good at, it's another helpful gadget that can easily be replaced by spytraps, other patroul routes etc.
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 06, 2008, 04:33:45 PM
Hold on, you may know all that - new players probably won't. We can't design it so that only die hard fans that play 24/7 have a chance.
it's not that you can't play successfully without camnet. camnet shouldn't be a no-brainer, you gotta learn when to use it, where to look with it, etc. it's no a basic game mechanics you need to be good at, it's another helpful gadget that can easily be replaced by spytraps, other patroul routes etc.
[/quote]
Okay, I can agree on that. Just talking about learning curve and such things, we must not forget that!
Quote from: Spekkio on February 06, 2008, 04:50:27 PM
QuoteHold on, you may know all that - new players probably won't. We can't design it so that only die hard fans that play 24/7 have a chance.
It doesn't take a diehard fan playing 24/7 to learn the map. Hell, wtf do you do when you don't take camnet? Run around in circles aimlessly until you lose?
Part of the game's fun factor is using your head to figure out what the spies are doing.
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
I dont want to start new topic, cause the issue I want to discuss is connected with this one.
Wouldnt it be a nice idea if bullet placed near ordinary cam could show whats happening there ?
There are 3 options where you could see it:
1) in a small window of you hud
2) on spy's hand after zooming in
3) you wouldnt see anything else than the camera view
This could be useful in many situations, example: On club you could place the bullet next to the cam watching door to tea and lunch. Player could easily say when he has to use the spy camera to sleep merc.
I know for many of us radar or the sound of opening door is enough but its only one of the examples this option could work. You could also use it to see merc's position/ behaviour or mine placement .When youre looking through the camera you shouldnt be able to see more than you can see on the radar. Discuss.
Interesting idea neth. What if a merc is watching through the camera? Does it give a him a little "bugged" message?
This idea refers to ordinary cams, merc cant look through them.
oh right. Your club example is pretty weak though, because a spy bullet would let you know if a merc is there anyways. You don't really need to see through that one. But I can think of other cams where it would be of good use.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 11:59:47 PM
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
The main way to attract newbies is to have a very detailed tutorial that lets them try stuff out themselves, like finding the source of a sound for instance.
Also no hidden mechanics. None. Everything should be explained.
Eh, there should be some things that people learn over time. Otherwise it's completely noob friendly. I understand that MOST mechanics should be covered so that newbs have a basic idea of what's going on, but not everything. Some things are better left untaught so the player himself can learn over time. Most tricks aren't even intended to go in the game anyways, so therefore won't be in the tutorial.
every mechanic has to be told in the tutorial. but it's questionable if it's reasonable to show teamplay tactics etc. maybe some 3 minute video at the end of the tutorial would be good, showing that it's all about getting the objectives, staying in the shadows, playing actively, using teamplay etc all with some example clips and some inspiration for advanced tactics.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 11:59:47 PM
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
The main way to attract newbies is to have a very detailed tutorial that lets them try stuff out themselves, like finding the source of a sound for instance.
Also no hidden mechanics. None. Everything should be explained.
Name one game that explains all the intermediate and advanced tactics in their manual or tutorial.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:49:14 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 11:59:47 PM
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
The main way to attract newbies is to have a very detailed tutorial that lets them try stuff out themselves, like finding the source of a sound for instance.
Also no hidden mechanics. None. Everything should be explained.
Name one game that explains all the intermediate and advanced tactics in their manual or tutorial.
Zelda...;)
Im not really sure if tutorial will help. Note that there is a compulsory tutorial in CT which shows how to use visions, launch nades etc. and newbies still dont know these things.
so far i found two good suggestions in this thread:
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
best suggestion for camnet so far, though its balance heavily depends on the map design/camnet placement. i think 5s instead of 10s but no cooldown timer would be better.
the other interesting suggestion is having a bullet next to camnet alert the spy when it's activated.
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 15, 2008, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:49:14 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 11:59:47 PM
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
The main way to attract newbies is to have a very detailed tutorial that lets them try stuff out themselves, like finding the source of a sound for instance.
Also no hidden mechanics. None. Everything should be explained.
Name one game that explains all the intermediate and advanced tactics in their manual or tutorial.
Zelda...;)
WRONG. It depends on which Zelda you are talking about, but I can come up with at least one thing not explained in the manual for Zelda 1, Zelda 2, LTP, OOT, and TP.
Quote from: Westfall-US on February 04, 2008, 09:58:23 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on February 04, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
As far as camnet: remove special visions from it and allow the spies to shoot it out (merc sees static for 10 sec). This gives the spies two options:
1. You sneak by with camo
2. You shoot it out. Merc knows where you've been, but not exactly where you're going.
What about a scrambler Spek? It can scramble the camnet because there are high places you can get to. It might be a giveaway as to the scrambler's spot, but the scrambler can work on the other security devices. Would really maybe even be an optional chaff, b/c u can move around with it like hb sensor.
What about a reallly BRIGHT light which the spy would just shine into the camnet and blind the merc. It would be a give away for sure, but it'd be funny.
lmao imagine reflecting light off your watch or something into the camnet :D
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: Westfall-US on March 15, 2008, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:49:14 AM
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 14, 2008, 11:00:42 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 06, 2008, 11:59:47 PM
I agree, again. I didn't really like the game when I first played it, because I had no idea where I was getting shot from, or where sounds came from. Now that I know, it is so much fun. That is one of the fun factors of this game, learning everything.
The main way to attract newbies is to have a very detailed tutorial that lets them try stuff out themselves, like finding the source of a sound for instance.
Also no hidden mechanics. None. Everything should be explained.
Name one game that explains all the intermediate and advanced tactics in their manual or tutorial.
Zelda...;)
WRONG. It depends on which Zelda you are talking about, but I can come up with at least one thing not explained in the manual for Zelda 1, Zelda 2, LTP, OOT, and TP.
I was referring to Zelda 1. What wasn't mentioned in the manual(?), which was the best manual EVER
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 01:49:14 AM
Name one game that explains all the intermediate and advanced tactics in their manual or tutorial.
There's a difference between tactics and mechanics. Figuring out where to place mines for instance is tactics, but you know the mechanics to the mines and where you can place them. Just because you know how the pieces move in chess doesn't make you a good chess player. Likely you won't think of all the advanced moves that advanced players make, but you're looking at it more with "wow how'd he think of that?" instead of angrily saying "nobody fucking told me that you could move a queen like a bishop too!"
The mechanics of the game should be plainly explained period.
But Chess isn't a video game. As long as there are errors in coding, there will be hidden mechanics in game that are not found at release. Even one of the simplest fighting games ever, Super Smash Bros Brawl, has "hidden mechanics."
We don't make errors in our code ;D We'll call it 'features'. O wait, we're not Microsoft. ::)
Quote from: Spekkio on March 15, 2008, 08:04:54 PM
But Chess isn't a video game. As long as there are errors in coding, there will be hidden mechanics in game that are not found at release.
Well bugs and hidden mechanics are different things.
Most hidden mechanics arise from bugs and glitches. Some are ultimately good for the game, some are not.
QuoteI was referring to Zelda 1. What wasn't mentioned in the manual(?), which was the best manual EVER
How many hearts you need to upgrade your sword, the fact that typing ZELDA as the name brings you straight to the 2nd quest. The quickest way to earn Rupees. There are no visual cues whatsoever on where you can bomb or burn bushes.
Oh, and none of these:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/code/563433.html
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2008, 03:18:34 PM
Most hidden mechanics arise from bugs and glitches. Some are ultimately good for the game, some are not.
QuoteI was referring to Zelda 1. What wasn't mentioned in the manual(?), which was the best manual EVER
How many hearts you need to upgrade your sword, the fact that typing ZELDA as the name brings you straight to the 2nd quest. The quickest way to earn Rupees. There are no visual cues whatsoever on where you can bomb or burn bushes.
Oh, and none of these:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/nes/code/563433.html
HAHAHAHAHAHA...nice.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2008, 03:18:34 PM
Most hidden mechanics arise from bugs and glitches. Some are ultimately good for the game, some are not.
Or Lazy tutorials. I mean, just go back and check out the PT or CT tutorials and tell me how mechanics aren't explained.
-Coop Moves
-Merc sound reticule
-Spy: What makes sound
-Grabbing a merc
-Using many gadgets
-moving slow to disarm proxies.
And man.... I mean... that's just scratching the surface.
The game certainly should include either a more comprehensive tutorial or a PDF manual that explains things like the sound reticle. But you and some others on here make it sound like every little nook and cranny has to be explained to the player, and that's unrealistic.
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2008, 09:51:10 PM
The game certainly should include either a more comprehensive tutorial or a PDF manual that explains things like the sound reticle. But you and some others on here make it sound like every little nook and cranny has to be explained to the player, and that's unrealistic.
Mechanics should be explained, not tactics. And I think that's an entirely realistic goal.
Just make a standard game manual. No need to explain everything, but certainly more than what is explained in CT.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 16, 2008, 11:42:01 PM
Just make a standard game manual. No need to explain everything, but certainly more than what is explained in CT.
there is a flaw with this though, some are hands on learners and others are Visual / audio learners.
Quote from: AgentX_003 on March 17, 2008, 12:13:26 AM
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 16, 2008, 11:42:01 PM
Just make a standard game manual. No need to explain everything, but certainly more than what is explained in CT.
there is a flaw with this though, some are hands on learners and others are Visual / audio learners.
So? You can't make everyone happy. Do you not buy games if there is no tutorial, only a manual?
I think there should be a tutorial for basics, but the manual should be for everything.
a good interactive tutorial would really help to make the svm community grow faster.
Quote from: Gawain on March 17, 2008, 03:55:26 AM
a good interactive tutorial would really help to make the svm community grow faster.
hence they have a writer for that i believe =) .
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 16, 2008, 10:18:57 PM
Quote from: Spekkio on March 16, 2008, 09:51:10 PM
The game certainly should include either a more comprehensive tutorial or a PDF manual that explains things like the sound reticle. But you and some others on here make it sound like every little nook and cranny has to be explained to the player, and that's unrealistic.
Mechanics should be explained, not tactics. And I think that's an entirely realistic goal.
Agree 100%
Tactics should be developed by the player himself after learning maps and such.
Quote from: Gawain on March 17, 2008, 03:55:26 AM
a good interactive tutorial would really help to make the svm community grow faster.
Yeah, I mean we don't need to do everything via tutorial. But what we do need to do is have stuff like:
-Tracking the location of a sound.
-Grabbing a merc
-Finding and Disarming a proxy and a laser mine
-Doing crouch/roll/crouch (if it makes it into the game)
That sorta thing.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on March 17, 2008, 06:31:30 PM
-Doing crouch/roll/crouch (if it makes it into the game)
That's something you should learn playing not on a tutorial. I feel that this is like explaining when to run and when to hide (something you should find out by yourself).
If crouch roll crouch is included in the game then it should be in the tutorial because it is a game mechanic. Hidden things that the devs don't know about obviously won't be. Things like the night vision switch to smooth your landing fall in the same category.
Why would you need someone to explain that if you roll while hitting crouch, you roll while in the air? That is not something that should be explained.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 11:13:45 PM
If crouch roll crouch is included in the game then it should be in the tutorial because it is a game mechanic. Hidden things that the devs don't know about obviously won't be. Things like the night vision switch to smooth your landing fall in the same category.
It's not a gadget. It's like teaching how to quick cam, how to aggro someone or how to be stealthy..
Quote from: Gui Brazil on March 18, 2008, 01:18:15 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 11:13:45 PM
If crouch roll crouch is included in the game then it should be in the tutorial because it is a game mechanic. Hidden things that the devs don't know about obviously won't be. Things like the night vision switch to smooth your landing fall in the same category.
It's not a gadget. It's like teaching how to quick cam, how to aggro someone or how to be stealthy..
Woohoo!
Quote from: Gui Brazil on March 18, 2008, 01:18:15 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 11:13:45 PM
If crouch roll crouch is included in the game then it should be in the tutorial because it is a game mechanic. Hidden things that the devs don't know about obviously won't be. Things like the night vision switch to smooth your landing fall in the same category.
It's not a gadget. It's like teaching how to quick cam, how to aggro someone or how to be stealthy..
I think you should teach things that are counterintuitive too.
Quote from: Overstatement on March 18, 2008, 01:28:36 AM
Quote from: Gui Brazil on March 18, 2008, 01:18:15 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 17, 2008, 11:13:45 PM
If crouch roll crouch is included in the game then it should be in the tutorial because it is a game mechanic. Hidden things that the devs don't know about obviously won't be. Things like the night vision switch to smooth your landing fall in the same category.
It's not a gadget. It's like teaching how to quick cam, how to aggro someone or how to be stealthy..
I think you should teach things that are counterintuitive too.
Right.
Spies are taught that running makes noise.
If there happens to be a caveat to that rule where running makes noise
unless X happens, then you should specify what X happens to be.
I agree. Those are the things that new people don't know, and don't figure out for a long time.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 18, 2008, 10:47:07 PM
I agree. Those are the things that new people don't know, and don't figure out for a long time.
shut up noob and get on the game, stop being a whore / XFIRE as far as your probs with pinnacle contact.. Stowstoppas
Aim ricaninjc I WANNA PLAY YAA!!!!
Lol, if you didn't learn quick enough that running makes noise? Umm
best thing to improve the tutorial is probably watching some friends totally new to svm doing the tutorial and ask which questions they have left that it didn't answer. after gaining some online experience, watch them play and see what main mistakes they make.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 19, 2008, 02:26:34 AM
Lol, if you didn't learn quick enough that running makes noise? Umm
Haha I didn't mean that, just things that you don't learn quickly or talked about in the tut.
Good idea gawain.
Quote from: Rambo on March 19, 2008, 02:31:58 AM
best thing to improve the tutorial is probably watching some friends totally new to svm doing the tutorial and ask which questions they have left that it didn't answer. after gaining some online experience, watch them play and see what main mistakes they make.
Yeah that's a good idea.
You could just record a few vets playing, and then have a voice over explaining a feature that is currently being used.
Quote from: Ion.67 on March 19, 2008, 09:54:08 PM
You could just record a few vets playing, and then have a voice over explaining a feature that is currently being used.
i thought about this, but newbs don't wanna watch vids, they wanna do it in an interactive tutorial. maybe one vid showing advanced stuff for inspiration after the tutorial would be good.
Really? I love watching videos of good players.
i guess you only like it because u actually have an idea of the gameplay after playing it by yourself for a time.
I hate watching video tutorials, I doubt many people actually like it or prefer it over interactive tuts.
if you don't undstand what's happening (eg why the vets showed in the vid play cleverly) and have no experience you can relate the shown stuff to, it's boring. the tutorial has to be as interactive as possible. learning by doing.
Watching replays and video tutorials can be helpful, so long as they show you a good enough portion to let you get focus. Most of the problem with video stuff that I've seen is that it shows a very short clip and you can't get an idea of how that fits into the whole game.
just like camnet and snares... ???
I thought it was already discussed that a basic tutorial and explanation of the gadgets is all that was going to be done. Any advanced moves or tactics were going to be put in loading screens or something such as:
"The EMF vision for a Merc can see through some ceilings and walls. Be weary as a spy in the ceiling, activating your visions, using your weapon might get you caught."
A tutorial isn't need for this, and the new player, if they haven't already noticed this, will say "well shit, that explains a lot. I guess that guy wasn't cheating"
Advance tactics such as quick caming or tripple nading should not be explained. Basic principles such as protect the objectives, or work with your partner for better results would be fine. Tutorials should give the players enough info to be able to come up with their own tactics. This way, new and different tactics can be more easily created. The game stays fresh if people play differently.
Maybe the camnet should be in red vision only so the spies could hide if they stealth around?!
If you did that then camnet would freeze spies for as long as the mercs use the camnet.
Quote from: Papa Skull on March 23, 2008, 05:55:42 PM
If you did that then camnet would freeze spies for as long as the mercs use the camnet.
Not with a modified MT. It would probably strain your eyes to see movement from camnet if it were perma-MT-ed. I don't really see why there would be a camnet system in MT constantly. Normal vision is the way to go.
vote for normal vision, maybe with some distortion and bad quality.
The fact is that camnet was some kinda unfair on some maps.
So I think it would be nice if there could be something changed ;)
this has already been discussed. camnet will have no special visions and camo will probably get a boost, too. camnet will also probably be placed in more balanced spots.
And I hope not again next to a visual map where you can always see where the spy is (River Mall) :D
A lot of the reason it is unfair is because you can flip on MT while using it. This actually does freeze the spy as he can't move without being detected even at a considerable range. But Westfall is right, with a modified MT it wouldn't happen. But what's the point of nerfing the camnet THAT bad.
Honestly I don't find I have to use MT with camnet. Just the original view is enough. There usually just isn't enough darkness to even matter.
Agreed.
i never use mt with camnet and i doubt other players do.
Most places with camnet are already well lit or have lit backgrounds so normal vision is enough. If it's not enough you can just use torch or laser. Now with PS camnet, placing would be the key.
Quote from: Rambo on March 24, 2008, 01:59:55 PM
i never use mt with camnet and i doubt other players do.
Ill actually switch through both MT and EMF to try and spot a spy moving or using an electric device. It has worked in the past.
BUT, usually due to the placement of the camnet it's easy to see them without using those views. Though sometimes they do help out a bit at times.
And is it just me or are the quote boxes looking different?