on topic of this i know someone mentioned having less security is better , but i think for the maps that are being created , taking a page out of Pandora tomorrow for a second here . I believe more security is better which also adds to the intensity factor internally what i longed for and felt almost had a heart attack.
Scct didn't provide that intensity that once was , the first versus mode, i think well A). cause Chaos theorys music sucked and B) they took out all the important security / changed the maps around when they should have just left it like it was..
Prime example.. Museum : was dark and mysterious in PT, Scct: lame and clear as day. well thats all i have to say if you wanna add more feel free to discuss.
the random security lasers on museam where great.
you neven knew as spy what you needed to by pass.
on other maps like schernhorn if there was a security failure
you always know that they where in the back of the map (waterroom)
becase there where no other places with security.
map knowlegde is key to win the game
so there should be a balanse to the amount of security
not to many so if you get a security failure the spy can still be any where
not to less like DA so it becames a rush game
(also i think that ubi did less security to get some speed into the gameplay
to appeal to a larger group of ppl)
the pt soundtrack was so fucking awesome that i can't imagine the ps team can do as well, but who would have thought that they create models etc in this professional quality? i'd really like the option to change the sound tracks to my own (so that i can use the pt ones), is this possible?
regarding the map design, the maps should become way darker (not the whole map but a sufficient amount of shadows).
for passive security i suggest moving cams (bypassing them needs timing and some time) and the kind of motion detectors that are on cinema (you can bypass them with slow-crouch).
the amount of lasers (and the possibility to roll through etc) depend on the sound implementation.
I want to have a 'security' option as host, so the host could select between:
- No security.
- PT (no random) Security + Shadows
- PT (random) Security - CT shadows
- CT security
- Full Security - NO shadows (i don't know why i thought of that, maybe more MGS gameplay??)
as security options i would like to see random laser grids maby selectable for merc
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
How about lights coming on and off (like motion or laser triggered or when there is a alarm)... + I think there should be a "auto screen brightness' option with a better control that 3 squares (maybe a 10 step settings with random number with the option "type de number you see" or "I don't see the number")
^Test subject, that won't help. As soon as you've set it and put the number in you could just turn the brightness back up.
Quote from: frvge on February 10, 2008, 03:18:37 PM
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
That would be a good idea, but it would do nothing if you can crouch roll crouch again.
Just looked through. A no-shadows version would be f***ing sweet!
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 10, 2008, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 10, 2008, 03:18:37 PM
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
That would be a good idea, but it would do nothing if you can crouch roll crouch again.
Lasers can always be placed so that you cannot roll through at all. That's up to the map-designers. ;)
Quote from: BurningDeath on February 10, 2008, 08:07:00 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 10, 2008, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: frvge on February 10, 2008, 03:18:37 PM
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
That would be a good idea, but it would do nothing if you can crouch roll crouch again.
Lasers can always be placed so that you cannot roll through at all. That's up to the map-designers. ;)
No doubt. But, I guarantee that mappers are going to follow the developers map. And, the developers map is going to be what the devs want. So, it is up to the devs.
Quote from: frvge on February 10, 2008, 03:18:37 PM
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
Meh. What would make this better than spy traps?
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 10, 2008, 07:21:57 PM
Just looked through. A no-shadows version would be f***ing sweet!
Yeah, and maybe add a vision-range limit for merc's, so it's more MGS...
Damn, i love MGS <3
Same. My Ps3 is gathering dust and waiting for that beauty to be released (which i've no idea when it will be). Once it comes out then it will be my xbox's turn to be lonely in the corner.
Toggling shadows should be in. Cool idea.
Quote from: Gawain on February 10, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
the pt soundtrack was so fucking awesome that i can't imagine the ps team can do as well, but who would have thought that they create models etc in this professional quality? i'd really like the option to change the sound tracks to my own (so that i can use the pt ones), is this possible?
How in the world can you say such a Negatory comment like that, seriously, if you don't think they can pull it off , which they are getting a professional composer i might add, then Your an idiot.
2. the reason why Pandora's music was soo good it was because of the composer whos name is Lalo schifrin , same composer as for the movie Mission impossible, thats why Chaos theorys music is no match.
heres his official site . http://www.schifrin.com/ (http://www.schifrin.com/)
Quote from: Tidenburg on February 11, 2008, 01:32:07 AM
Same. My Ps3 is gathering dust and waiting for that beauty to be released (which i've no idea when it will be). Once it comes out then it will be my xbox's turn to be lonely in the corner.
Toggling shadows should be in. Cool idea.
I was thinking about buying a PS3 JUST for mgs 4. That game is going to be so freaking awesome. But luckily, my friend got it even though I told him he should have gotten a 360.
Quote from: frvge on February 10, 2008, 03:18:37 PM
What about a gadget, selectable by only one Merc, that enables extra (random?) security lasers, when selected?
You mean like spy traps lol!
Quotefor passive security i suggest moving cams (bypassing them needs timing and some time) and the kind of motion detectors that are on cinema (you can bypass them with slow-crouch).
the amount of lasers (and the possibility to roll through etc) depend on the sound implementation.
Lasers are good, too, just don't be dumb and put them 1 meter in front of an objective.
Meh, not like spy traps.
More like the amount of lasers in the Data in Vertigo, aka: a lot.
I like the idea of selectable security
1) More lasers that gives more choke points to get to a opjective
example a lasergrid in the beginning from a hallway
PLUS a lasergrid at the end hallway as bonus
2) A extra laser on the basic lasergrids that makes diving through a lasergrid impossible
3) maby that you can make 1 room (opjective) very hard, creating somekinda "Vault" security
More lasers, closing doors when alarm is triggered.
(moving lasers would be nice)
this looks like the right place to discuss about spy traps. it's quite ridiculous how easy it's to disable them in the most spots especially with chaff going through walls (or some aggro teamplay), and mines are always better because they actually kill. i first thought about simply increasing their number, but now i have a better idea:
-increase number of simultaniously placable traps to 4
-add new selectable trap type: laser gives security alert just like passive security; can't be removed at all (besides with frags/rifle bullets/mine explosion)
-allow traps to be placed in every angle (while placing them you can switch into another perspective which allows you to aim wherever you want to which would also take more time to set it up)
-allow traps and presence detectors to be placed on the floor (vertically)
these changes would allow a more customized map control not depending that much on the map design and way more placement possibilities keeping it all fresh.
Quote from: Gawain on February 11, 2008, 02:31:56 PM
this looks like the right place to discuss about spy traps. it's quite ridiculous how easy it's to disable them in the most spots especially with chaff going through walls (or some aggro teamplay), and mines are always better because they actually kill. i first thought about simply increasing their number, but now i have a better idea:
-increase number of simultaniously placable traps to 4
I was lobbying for 5...
Quote-add new selectable trap type: laser gives security alert just like passive security; can't be removed at all (besides with frags/rifle bullets/mine explosion)
I like this one
Quote-allow traps to be placed in every angle (while placing them you can switch into another perspective which allows you to aim wherever you want to which would also take more time to set it up)
Eh, too complicated. They should just be able to be placed on any surface; ergo, they will be set at the normal to the surface.
Quote-allow traps and presence detectors to be placed on the floor (vertically)
I don't see how placing them on the floor would be helpful.
Quote from: frvge on February 11, 2008, 11:44:45 AM
Meh, not like spy traps.
More like the amount of lasers in the Data in Vertigo, aka: a lot.
I was just pointing out that the mercs already have the capability to place more "random lasers" in the map through spy traps, laser mines, and poison mines.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 03:29:49 PM
Quote-allow traps and presence detectors to be placed on the floor (vertically)
I don't see how placing them on the floor would be helpful.
Think of vent-shafts. ;)
And that's about it Burning. But think about placing mines on floors, eww. That would be a bitch for spies. Depends on how it's implemented.
there's a simple solution: don't let yourself get trapped in vents or use chaff.
i don't think that a free angle for spytraps would be too complicated as you could place them normally as quickly as now.
Yea, being able to place mines and spy traps everywhere in the map no matter what could be a little dangerous. I wouldn't mind trying it out, though.
I like the idea of the laser trip spy traps, but if the spy can't remove it, then the merc shouldn't be able to, either. It's like you're planting your own passive defense for the map.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 11, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
I like the idea of the laser trip spy traps, but if the spy can't remove it, then the merc shouldn't be able to, either. It's like you're planting your own passive defense for the map.
that was exactly my thought.
spy/merc can't already remove presence detectors after it detected something which is fine because they are harder to locate.
we could also make a hybrid:
-can't be removed
-gives alert for crossing the laser
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
atm the problem with spytraps now is that you got too few and those few get destroyed way too soon so that the combination spytraps+camnet is pretty weak compared to spytraps+backpack or even camnet+backpack except for some rare op spots on some maps.
i also think that making traps irremovable is a good balance choice and separates traps more from mines. mines are more lethal but they can only work once and can be removed.
Unremovable spy traps is fine with me as long as you can chaff/shoot them to temporarily disable them.
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 11, 2008, 06:41:50 PM
Unremovable spy traps is fine with me as long as you can chaff/shoot them to temporarily disable them.
yeah of course XD
Yeah, maybe disabling spytraps when ssing them, instead of removing them would work out??
Papaskull, I got the 360 first and then my mum got a Wii but never used it so I got that aswell. Then I saw MGS and ratchet and clank (Don't look at me like that, its a good game!) were coming out on the PS and I couldn't resist no matter how much the MS fanboy inside me told me not to.
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 11, 2008, 06:41:50 PM
Unremovable spy traps is fine with me as long as you can chaff/shoot them to temporarily disable them.
If I'm thinking of what Gawain is, it'd be a third type of spy trap that functions as if it were a passive laser, ie it won't tag you.
Yeah, but then make it a second gadget, and give 10-20 (huge exaggeration here) of those, so it makes the game much more random. Also there should be a limitation, so you could not just place all 10 one next to the other, so no spy can get through. There should be a ~50cm radius around the laser, so you can't do this.
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 11, 2008, 10:12:39 PMAlso there should be a limitation, so you could not just place all 10 one next to the other, so no spy can get through.
Uh, one chaff would take them all out...
Quote from: Liqu1D_133 on February 11, 2008, 10:12:39 PM
Yeah, but then make it a second gadget, and give 10-20 (huge exaggeration here) of those, so it makes the game much more random.
No.
Care to explain??
I thought that we all here aggreed that randomness caused by the players was good, while built in random factors were bad.
Why not just use 5 secondary spy traps, instead of 20 gadget trips?
You said "huge exaggeration," but how many traps are we talking about? Sorry, but I don't find adding a bunch of placeable defenses making the game more "random and fun." Mercs already have spy traps and mines, isn't that enough for now? Not to mention camnet.
Quote from: Vega on February 12, 2008, 05:09:53 AM
You said "huge exaggeration," but how many traps are we talking about? Sorry, but I don't find adding a bunch of placeable defenses making the game more "random and fun." Mercs already have spy traps and mines, isn't that enough for now? Not to mention camnet.
Depends on the size of the maps. 5 spy traps seems like a bit too much. I like the idea about the spy trap being vertical. I'm not really for the non-removable security trap, they are already in the map and it only acts like a presence detector.
The only places where I can see that would work well with vertical traps is the entrance/exit to vents. And that's not a lot of use.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 12, 2008, 08:00:49 AM
The only places where I can see that would work well with vertical traps is the entrance/exit to vents. And that's not a lot of use.
It's enough, imo.
back in the days that you could place vertical spytraps
they wherent used a lot but when they where uses they where really effective.
specially for me becase i didnt bring my chaff
so there was no way of disarming them becase you couldnt get the angle to shoot them
a few examples
cinema -> vent next to the cafe terminal
krauserlab -> room before the lab where the spies need to get of the sealing
warehouse -> sector1 where the spies can hang on the pipe next to the bridge
---
I do think that there should be a limit to placing the spytraps/mines vertically
only able on opjects, not on the ground.
or els you can place them everywhere and it would not be possible for spies to leave a vent
so chaff will became a gadget that you need to take with you to be able to play the game
Quote from: mentalmars on February 12, 2008, 01:42:16 PM
I do think that there should be a limit to placing the spytraps/mines vertically
only able on opjects, not on the ground.
or els you can place them everywhere and it would not be possible for spies to leave a vent
so chaff will became a gadget that you need to take with you to be able to play the game
Nah .. not really. The mercs most likely won't bring backpack or camnet then. You can use that for your advantage. Plus, there is still the possibility to let your mate take the trap off.
Actually, this could be op. Think about it, the spies can't look that far down to disable the device with their ss gun. For people without chaff it could basically block vents. Putting poison mines shooting up into vents where people can't disable them without chaff sounds dumb imo.
QuoteDepends on the size of the maps. 5 spy traps seems like a bit too much.
For me, it depends on how they will go about changing spy traps to begin with. If the spies have a limit on removing them from their partner and chaff no longer works through walls, then yes I can see 5 traps being too much. If the game allows 5 slots or gives mask + 4 slots, I can see 5 spy traps being too many because more teams will be able to have both mercs take them.
If the game plays exactly as it does now, even 5 spy traps wouldn't be that many.
Quote from: Gawain on February 11, 2008, 06:31:33 PM
we could also make a hybrid:
-can't be removed (not by spy and merc)
-gives alert for crossing the laser
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
i think this is the most elegant solution as it boosts traps (especially without bp), distinguishes them more from mines but doesn't allow spam.
Yes, but that's a third function, similar to poison mine vs. proxy mine. Still says nothing about the primary function, which needs some love.
actually i think a hybrid like suggested above would be better.
Oh, you mean remove the tag function altogether? I'm not a fan of that at all. I don't think that content should be removed unless it's absolutely necessary.
The hybrid is the exact same thing as a presence detector....cept it can't be removed.
Horizontal trap
Vertical trap
Presence detector
What's wrong with that? The presence detector should look just like the trap though. This way, as you scroll through the merc doesn't necessarily have to take out "another gadget."
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
Don't like it. It means spy's no where your traps are, and could block of certain spots for good.
Yea, I don't like it either. Fix instant and infinite healing/trap removal/bullet removal.
I wouldn't be opposed to a third type of self-placement passive defense, but I don't think that the way spy traps work now needs to be fundamentally changed.
I must've ignored that part. Why not just set another trap....does this refillable tracer projectile leave us to assume the trap has to stay there for the game? Does the refillable whatever work as another gadget?
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 10:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
Don't like it. It means spy's no where your traps are, and could block of certain spots for good.
Give an example of somewhere it'd completely block a path.
Did anyone even read my post about how this could be op? If someone doesn't have chaff then they can't disable the trap/poison shooting up into the vent at all. It would basically block vents for all non chaff users. You can't look that far down with your ss gun and disable it on the ground either.
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 10:41:52 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 10:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
Don't like it. It means spy's no where your traps are, and could block of certain spots for good.
Give an example of somewhere it'd completely block a path.
If we have 5, you can completely block off second garden, block the 3 entrances to the room, and you got yourself a blocked room. You can even put two traps on the other second garden entrance, and you have yourself a COMPLETELY blocked room.
Not to mention that you could put the traps where they are too high to roll over them. Don't like this idea too much. Maybe customizable security settings. Like as mercs you could activate certain security laser grids in the lobby, or spawn. But they are already placed. You just have to choose the ones you wish to activate. But as for deployable security traps, no.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 13, 2008, 01:53:45 AM
Quote from: Cyntrox on February 12, 2008, 10:41:52 PM
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 12, 2008, 10:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 10:00:35 PM
Quote from: Gawain on February 12, 2008, 07:12:42 PM
-shoots a tracer projectile that needs to be refilled by the merc after each shot; without it it works just like a normal passive defence laser until the merc refills it
Don't like it. It means spy's no where your traps are, and could block of certain spots for good.
Give an example of somewhere it'd completely block a path.
If we have 5, you can completely block off second garden, block the 3 entrances to the room, and you got yourself a blocked room. You can even put two traps on the other second garden entrance, and you have yourself a COMPLETELY blocked room.
...or the spy can just shoot them out/chaff them -.-
that's why i suggest boosting spy trap function and not their number so that you can't completely lock down big areas but make them stay the whole game like passive defenses or camnet.
You could maybe chaff them, but in garden there are these ledges from other doorways that you can put traps on and they extend a long way. You can't ever ss them, maybe chaff them, but if you don't have chaff it is completely blocked. All this will make people do is bring chaff 100% of the time, and that will ruin variety in the game.
spy traps should and probably will get less range.
Eh, maybe. Can't see why other than previously stated reasons.
Spy traps should disappear when a spy goes through them.
They do. On console atleast, on PC, I don't know. But I can't see why that even matters.
Are you not following this discussion at all? Someone said spytraps should stay and be more like passive defenses, while I said that they should disappear. Got it now?
When you have the possibility of 9 traps all together, there is no reason that 5 or 3 should stay the whole game. Just wait until one is tripped, and place another one.
By dissapearing traps I thought you meant that when traps are triggered they dissapeared. I was following it, maybe missed a post or two. That's probably where I went wrong. And yes, you are right, traps should disappear when a spy triggers them. I agree.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 14, 2008, 06:07:50 AM
Are you not following this discussion at all? Someone said spytraps should stay and be more like passive defenses, while I said that they should disappear. Got it now?
When you have the possibility of 9 traps all together, there is no reason that 5 or 3 should stay the whole game. Just wait until one is tripped, and place another one.
i guess you didn't read my suggestion properly, too. i suggested a new type (or a hybrid) that remains after triggering it but doesn't track the spy on radar.
9 traps?? how do you come to that number?
9? Lemme see... If you are talking about 2 mercs taking the gadget, it could be even greater than 9 right? If you give them 4, and they take backpack (considering you could refill the gadget), there are 16 total spy traps that don't disappear and are placeable by mercs themselves. That to me sounds very overpowered. Even if you only gave them 3 traps a piece that's still 10. Still overpowered. Especially if the mercs can place them at a height where you can't roll over them. And even if you have to refill them, they are still going to be an extremely overpowered gadget against people w/o chaff. Not everyone takes chaff. If this were to be in the game, you would see a staggering increase in the amount of chaff used and a staggering increase in the amount of spy traps carried. But, if chaff increases, then the spy traps might be not used as much. Too early to tell for sure but it would be overpowered and ruin some variety.
I personally like the way that the primary spy trap works, and I don't want to see that disappear. I don't like the idea of permanent placements that you refill because it takes away the ability to move them, and smart spies are good at figuring out the trap layout of the map. But I don't think that the way spy traps work are fundamentally broken.
I would much rather the devs take the approach of doing something to insta heal/trap removal (also goes for spy bullets), the fact that you can run through multiple traps and set them all off, and the amount you can carry.
Papa: first of all, the amount of spy traps per merc are hard-capped. While he might have 16 in his inventory, if he can only place 3-5 then the rest aren't very useful at the moment.
I've always thought it woudl be nice to divorce traps from the backpack, in the sense that you get 2 traps, and you can constantly refill them at the ammo box (only 2 trap can be placed per merc). traps work the same as they do now under this system.
So the advantage of traps over mines is that you can use them all and they're not gone. Even if a spy shoots one out, you can just go back to the ammo box and get more. You can only have 2 at once as opposed to 3 mines, but in a long drawn out game, a spy is going to probably have to deal with those two traps a lot more often.
We could even try this at 3 traps if 2 proves to be too weak. I figure start at two though, just to try things out.
Interesting. As long as you can still only place 3 at once.
Quote from: InvisibleMan999 on February 14, 2008, 10:55:27 PM
I've always thought it woudl be nice to divorce traps from the backpack, in the sense that you get 2 traps, and you can constantly refill them at the ammo box (only 2 trap can be placed per merc). traps work the same as they do now under this system.
So the advantage of traps over mines is that you can use them all and they're not gone. Even if a spy shoots one out, you can just go back to the ammo box and get more. You can only have 2 at once as opposed to 3 mines, but in a long drawn out game, a spy is going to probably have to deal with those two traps a lot more often.
We could even try this at 3 traps if 2 proves to be too weak. I figure start at two though, just to try things out.
I would say start at 3, but that's an interesting solution.
i have another suggestion: the refillable hybrid i suggested but with a change: you have 3 traps and can always take one and put it somewhere else. it would make sure you can always make use of 3 traps, change their position, they still have some use after the spy running into them, and going to them (=leaving your position) allows you to refill the tracer projectile (which is similar to replacing them).
no to the hybrid. actually, a maybe. Needs some discussion but I can't see a whole lot coming from it. I don't like the idea of placeable security traps because it basically stops all non chaff users in their tracks.
Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 12:34:09 AM
i have another suggestion: the refillable hybrid i suggested but with a change: you have 3 traps and can always take one and put it somewhere else. it would make sure you can always make use of 3 traps, change their position, they still have some use after the spy running into them, and going to them (=leaving your position) allows you to refill the tracer projectile (which is similar to replacing them).
Dude, your hybrid idea sucks. First of all, spy traps were perfectly fine in PT; ergo, they are not fundamentally broken. There is no reason to revolutionize the way they work because spies can now spam chaff through walls and auto-remove anything they run into.
Second of all, your "hybrid" idea would either reduce spy traps into one mode again or make PDs pretty useless on the whole, and thus it would needlessly remove content from the game.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: Gawain on February 15, 2008, 12:34:09 AM
i have another suggestion: the refillable hybrid i suggested but with a change: you have 3 traps and can always take one and put it somewhere else. it would make sure you can always make use of 3 traps, change their position, they still have some use after the spy running into them, and going to them (=leaving your position) allows you to refill the tracer projectile (which is similar to replacing them).
Dude, your hybrid idea sucks. First of all, spy traps were perfectly fine in PT; ergo, they are not fundamentally broken. There is no reason to revolutionize the way they work because spies can now spam chaff through walls and auto-remove anything they run into.
Second of all, your "hybrid" idea would either reduce spy traps into one mode again or make PDs pretty useless on the whole, and thus it would needlessly remove content from the game.
I highly doubt that will be the factor anymore that you will be able to chaff threw walls, its not realistic at all and 2ndly pure lame and cheap how it is now.. =/.
It's not very cheap. It's not like you couldn't just bounce the chaff off the floor or another wall and get it to disable the device on the other side of the wall. And please, agent stfu about realism. ;D
The stfu part was an inside joke btw, so don't tell me off for saying that to agent. : /
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Dude, your hybrid idea sucks. First of all, spy traps were perfectly fine in PT; ergo, they are not fundamentally broken. There is no reason to revolutionize the way they work because spies can now spam chaff through walls and auto-remove anything they run into.
Second of all, your "hybrid" idea would either reduce spy traps into one mode again or make PDs pretty useless on the whole, and thus it would needlessly remove content from the game.
i think increasing the amount of simultaniously placable spy traps is a bad idea.
i also think there should be a larger difference between mines and traps (=mines blow up, traps stay)
the pd mode is already pretty weak compared to the laser mode and only good in places to surprise the spy which would work just as fine as it does in ct. heck, you could even lower the size and remove the sound and make it glow up periodically in thermal if you want to boost it or make it unremovable by spies at all.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 02:09:52 AM
It's not very cheap. It's not like you couldn't just bounce the chaff off the floor or another wall and get it to disable the device on the other side of the wall. And please, agent stfu about realism. ;D
The stfu part was an inside joke btw, so don't tell me off for saying that to agent. : /
Yes, but the difference is that quick-throwing chaff through walls can be done while a merc is chasing you around the map.
Quotei think increasing the amount of simultaniously placable spy traps is a bad idea.
Why? This is something you really won't know unless it's tested, considering that no one's played with both 5 spy traps and the ability for your partner to take traps off you. As it stands now, you probably won't have more than 1 merc taking traps anyway. Also, mines are generally stronger than spy traps, so it makes little sense to have the same limit on both of them, even if you used your "hybrid" idea. The hard caps on mines and traps were added because mercs in PT would suicide to place more stuff about the map, which would ultimately make it impassable. They just set the hard cap on traps too low.
Quotei also think there should be a larger difference between mines and traps (=mines blow up, traps stay)
There is already plenty difference between mines and spy traps. Spy traps are generally less noticeable and allow you to track a spy down. Mines are for killing. The only thing that overlaps with spy traps is poison mines, but that can be fixed by making them silent or not heard unless you're right next to it.
PDs can be pretty useful if placed in the right situations, but people rarely take spy traps, let alone use PDs. This is because the meta-game has evolved to such a state where the spies run around most of the time, so PDs (and spy traps) aren't very useful in general. If tweaks are made to make the meta-game more stealthy, PDs would receive a buff by default.
Quote from: Spekkio on February 15, 2008, 03:23:03 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 02:09:52 AM
It's not very cheap. It's not like you couldn't just bounce the chaff off the floor or another wall and get it to disable the device on the other side of the wall. And please, agent stfu about realism. ;D
The stfu part was an inside joke btw, so don't tell me off for saying that to agent. : /
Yes, but the difference is that quick-throwing chaff through walls can be done while a merc is chasing you around the map.
Well, afaik you don't want to get into that situation, and it's your fault for getting into it.
You could take another turn, not show yourself or just taze the merc to get out of the chase.
Everyone is responsible for their own trouble.
QuoteWell, afaik you don't want to get into that situation, and it's your fault for getting into it.
You could take another turn, not show yourself or just taze the merc to get out of the chase.
Everyone is responsible for their own trouble.
Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me. It sounds like you're trying to argue with me, but what you said supports my POV since chaff through walls gives you a get-out-of-jail free against a spy who is responsible for getting into his own trouble.
What about a Proximity Sensor (c'mon guys... PS names!) which doesn't alert the Spy? This is a huge buff for it.
I am against the 'chaff through wall is not cheap' stance (Papa), because it enforces mindless running around and aggroing the shit out of the merc's eyes (Flash, really hurts on CRT monitors).
chaff through walls leads to flashing merc? It doesn't lead to mindless running. Although mindless runners may take advantage of this, it doesn't mean non mindless runners won't.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 05:07:03 PM
chaff through walls leads to flashing merc? It doesn't lead to mindless running. Although mindless runners may take advantage of this, it doesn't mean non mindless runners won't.
Yes it does. Boot the game on your PC and any number of people will show you.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 05:07:03 PM
chaff through walls leads to flashing merc? It doesn't lead to mindless running. Although mindless runners may take advantage of this, it doesn't mean non mindless runners won't.
If I can chaff through the wall, I will be able to get into such room infinitely quicker than if I actually had to take some time to get in.
Quote from: Ion.67 on February 15, 2008, 05:50:40 PM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 05:07:03 PM
chaff through walls leads to flashing merc? It doesn't lead to mindless running. Although mindless runners may take advantage of this, it doesn't mean non mindless runners won't.
If I can chaff through the wall, I will be able to get into such room infinitely quicker than if I actually had to take some time to get in.
Exactly.
OT: Would leaving thermal traces be cool?? Like the spy does a back-to-wall for 2 seconds, then the spy silhuette would stay on themal on the wall. Kind of a nice to have.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 15, 2008, 12:46:08 AM
no to the hybrid. actually, a maybe. Needs some discussion but I can't see a whole lot coming from it. I don't like the idea of placeable security traps because it basically stops all non chaff users in their tracks.
or it still acts like a presence detector....
Yeah I just didn't understand how you came to that conclusion. It must only come up in a few situations then. In my experience chaff can be both an aggro and stealth tool. If a stealth player uses chaff it doesn't always lead to an aggro assault on the merc with flash bangs.
OT (i juts don't feel like starting another topic):
Proxy mines should be triggered by flying objects in their range, eg. cams, spy-bullets, snares, grenades, and everything that moves faster than a slow moving spy in general.
Because it's realistic? ::)
That makes no sense gameplay wise.
I just threw this idea for the sake of getting somewhere here.
I just don't see it happening. Also, even if ONLY nades (xcept chaff, maybe) and a fast moving spy would trigger the mines, It could be quite balanced.
Anyway, i just can't imagine having a cam land just next to a proxy without triggering it.
Well, if downhill counts as somewhere you've succeeded. Lol I'm just kidding man. Just remember that realism is never a good reason to implement something. Unless it's something that is realistic that will benefit the gameplay and experience.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 03:53:59 AM
Well, if downhill counts as somewhere you've succeeded. Lol I'm just kidding man. Just remember that realism is never a good reason to implement something. Unless it's something that is realistic that will benefit the gameplay and experience.
Realism should be accounted for. Theres no reason not to. Some things just makes sense, while others don't work. Not a bad idea cockfan. Maybe this should apply to a very small range....or you can just shoot the damn mine...lol
Given, realism is always a plus if it's balanced as well. But the reason not to is if it's not balanced. For instance, giving spies a knife would be realistic, but not balanced. (that is of course if you substitute the neck break with a neck slice, could be very cool.) And taking away the merc's ability to berserk spies on top of him would be good for realism but bad for gameplay. I don't see why kokafan's suggestion would even matter. You might as well shoot the mine. But it might also make it very easy for spies to blow up mines when mercs walk by them. They could just run around to get the merc's attention then lob a nade by the mine. I prefer it if you have to shoot the mine with your ss.
Since the conversation isn't going very far, let's talk about something else. It was probably already discussed, but here it goes. Giving spies knives. Now hold on, don't flip a gasket on me. It would just be the substitute for the neck break instead. No more neck breaks, say hello to neck slices. It wasn't a very important discussion before but now that we all want to make the game different than CT/PT for copyright purposes, we'll probably have to change the moves and such.
Breakdown of Neck Slice:
- Same as current grab, one button to grab, same button to kill (neck slice with knife or any other kind of knife kill)
- You still can knock out the mercs but elbowing them to the neck, but if you guys have any ideas about an animation or move that would work for that go right ahead.
- You grab the merc, and quickly pull your knife out and pull it to his neck. Animators might want to look at CT SP for good examples.
- It has the same effect, different animation. And I believe that's what the devs want.
- You can't use it anywhere but when you have the merc grabbed. Otherwise it will stay in the sheathe on your leg.
Slicing = messy.
messy merc = good
Maybe stabbing instead
I think all 3 of these ideas (shadows, no shadows etc) are great, it would add an element of excitement/suspence/shock (maybe, with the random security, when your not expecting it) to the game which is super, it would also bring about new tactics. About knife slicing I dont think it would be a good idea, spies are supposed to be un noticed and unseen, now that cant really happen if blood is sprayed all over the floor, and this isnt UT3 ;D so i think the "gore" is unacessary. Another suggestion, is if spies could hold onto the zipline once it reaches the end? Could be used as hiding spots perhaps, or to jump a merc, n its not unrealistic?
GIVE IMAPCT HAMMARZ TO SPIEZ!!
No, really, that'd be awesome. Pop-up behing a merc and uber-gib him all over the floor.
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 09:26:09 AMSince the conversation isn't going very far, let's talk about something else.
Make your own thread instead of changing this one. We have enough threads with 10+ pages that don't even stay on topic.
Quote from: Peachie on February 16, 2008, 12:57:13 PM
About knife slicing I dont think it would be a good idea, spies are supposed to be un noticed and unseen, now that cant really happen if blood is sprayed all over the floor, and this isnt UT3 ;D so i think the "gore" is unacessary.
Fucking finally, a newcomer that isn't drawn to some pointless, shitty effects that detract from SvM's theme. I applaud you, Peachie.
I'd rather not make a thread so it can get hijacked. I'll just go with this one, which is already hijacked. If the idea gets good feedback, I might make a new thread. I just thought about the knife and meh, it might not be so good. Not exactly our spy's style. I was thinking along the lines of 3rd echelon, which is the company fisher works for. Shadownet on the other hand is more of a nonlethal group I guess. I understand they aren't shadownet spies but if you want to make the new spy group a little more brutal a knife might be a good idea. It might make it a little more tense if you think you are getting stalked by a spy because he's a brutal motherfucker. :D
I just can't see a way to get a good looking kill with your hands other than the neck break. Maybe the neck smash. You take your wrists, and twist them around the mercs neck, and use the bone of your wrists to smash the neck bone. Really hard to explain, but if I find a video demonstrating it I'll share it with you guys.
Quote from: Vega on February 16, 2008, 08:06:42 PM
Fucking finally, a newcomer that isn't drawn to some pointless, shitty effects that detract from SvM's theme. I applaud you, Peachie.
qfe
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:26:50 PM
I just thought about the knife and meh, it might not be so good. Not exactly our spy's style. I was thinking along the lines of 3rd echelon, which is the company fisher works for. Shadownet on the other hand is more of a nonlethal group I guess.
This is what I'm talking about. All you had to do was think about your idea a little more thoroughly and you most likely would have come to the conclusion above. Well, maybe not, it took a newcomer to point out your idea's flaw.
Quote from: frvge on February 15, 2008, 04:15:25 PM
What about a Proximity Sensor (c'mon guys... PS names!) which doesn't alert the Spy? This is a huge buff for it.
I like this idea.
I've always hated that the proxy use gave the spy an alert message. That was dumb. The thing is already nerfed because it doesn't put the spy on radar, no need for it to give him a "You've been detected message" too.
Just make sure to inlcude at least one in the tutorials so the spy can get to know the beep it makes and how to avoid them.
Quote from: Vega on February 17, 2008, 12:59:24 AM
Quote from: Papa Skull on February 16, 2008, 08:26:50 PM
I just thought about the knife and meh, it might not be so good. Not exactly our spy's style. I was thinking along the lines of 3rd echelon, which is the company fisher works for. Shadownet on the other hand is more of a nonlethal group I guess.
This is what I'm talking about. All you had to do was think about your idea a little more thoroughly and you most likely would have come to the conclusion above. Well, maybe not, it took a newcomer to point out your idea's flaw.
Lol being a newcomer makes it a much bigger deal right? ::) For all we know he could study the way Shadownet works and operates. He wasn't even the one that convinced me. And I only threw it out there because I thought people might like it and that new moves are needed to replace other ones from previous games. It still seems like reasonable solution to me, and I'm sure to some others as well, but if we want to keep the spies a little more non-lethal it's not a great idea. Not sure where the devs want to go with this. I know for certain that they need features that replace old features with different names etc...
Any devs want to give any input on how brutal you think spies should be? If you want brutality, knife kills replacing the neck grab would be a great way to go. If you want a more sophisticated spy then you'll need to give him some sort of complex, but simple, method of killing mercs while grabbed. Like the neck smash, for instance, it looks simple but it's actually some precise placement of the arms. It's quick, to the point, and gives spies a little more trained feeling and not a brutal feeling. You know what i mean?
I have a better idea. Choking to death by pulling the Merc's undies over his head. Think "The Mask". C'mon, it's a HUMILIATION move. So it pwns.
Nice. How about a choke cord? Too brutal? Too hitman? Yeah. lol
It has to be some sort of hand combat kill. I'll look for a good neck smash vid.
How about he sticks a huge syringe into the mercs mouth and suck out his brain? Fuck, that would have ME scared of being caught by a spy o.O